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Russian blameshift backfire

Written By: - Date published: 1:50 pm, July 23rd, 2014 - 194 comments
Categories: uncategorized - Tags:

Today’s DomPost carries a story (not on Stuff but reprinted from the Sydney Morning Herald) showing Russian Air Force officers claiming that a Ukrainian fighter was close to Malaysian MF17. It was described as a “SU-25 fighter jet, which is typically equipped with air-to-air missiles.”

I’m a plane-spotter from a way back, with a particular interest in Russian aircraft. The SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft, not an interceptor. Its unloaded ceiling is 23,000 feet. well below the height at which MF 17 was flying. Its secondary armament is short-range small warhead air-to-air missiles. Interestingly the Wikipedia specification for the SU-25 ceiling was apparently recently edited from a Russian IP to back up the story.

The Russian generals were specific – they named and blamed  a SU-25. The Financial Times sets out the reasons why the Russian scenario is not credible.

194 comments on “Russian blameshift backfire”

  1. shorts 1

    In war, truth is the first casualty – and in this instance there is much posturing and blame throwing going on from all quarters

    The only fact we really know is the plane came down and someone is to blame – the rest is propaganda and opinion at this point

    • Gosman 1.1

      You can make a certain amount of educated guesses though based on known facts and common sense. The Ukrainian rebels have shot transport aircraft out of the sky before and seem to have access to sophisticated weaponry like the SAM thought to be involved in the downing of the plane. The Ukrainian government hasn’t been shooting planes down in the area and as far as I am aware the rebels don’t even have planes to shoot down. The Rebels made some boasts about downing a plane on social media just after the plane went down and then deleted them. The Rebels have not been entirely helpful allowing invesigators get to the site and ensuring that it has not been tampered with which would be in their interest if the Ukrainian government was responsible. Applying Occams razor to this the most obvious explanation was that it was shot down by the Rebels but most likely as a result of a tragic misunderstanding.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.1

        Dont believe that part about comments on social media- for goodness sake its Donbass region not Grey Lynn. Ever heard of fake twitter accounts?

        Theres even pictures of missile launchers anywhere theres lots of Russians, including Knightsbridge

      • shorts 1.1.2

        I agree with your reasoning – but this is still a guess, educated and believable sure. It is most likely the rebels – but is it the rebels acting independently, acting under russia guidence or just russian special forces acting as rebels… or or something else????

        The rebels possibly have more pressing issues (fighting/winning) than worrying too much about allowing investigators and the like to the crash site, unless it helps their cause

        I don’t trust the Russians nor Americans to tell us one word of truth – I do have faith in them bullshitting and producing evidence that supports that bullshit to promote their desired outcome

        • Gosman 1.1.2.1

          It would have helped their cause immensely if they had allowed access and ensured the site was kept relatively uncontaminated especially if they weren’t to blame for the downing of the aircraft. The more worrying aspect is the reports of parts of the wreckage being cut away by some group prior to the investigators getting there. That is most concerning.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.2.1.1

            It won’t make any difference in the end; they might be able to make off with large bits of evidence but they’ll never cover all the traces of explosives etc.

          • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.2.1.2

            Parts of crashed aircraft have ended up on the spares market before, some can be quiet valuable. This is what happens in crashes in fairly rural areas that are spread over some large areas.

      • Ennui 1.1.3

        Occams razor???? Gos, try the “who benefits” question. If there is some benefit for the “rebels” (aka people who are being bombed so quite reasonably might knock planes out of the sky), or for Putin I cant quite see it. As a false flag operation by the Ukraine or the Pentagon it makes perfect sense. And I don’t even think they would be so stupid. All any of us have is speculation.

  2. Gosman 2

    I’m pleasantly surprised by this article especially considering I m having a heated discussion on Facebook with someone who is pushing the Russian version of events in a big way.

  3. ghostwhowalksnz 3

    Another scenario that isnt credible is that put out by Secretary of State Kerry is the BUK missile system is far too sophisticated for ordinary joes or ivans to operate.

    Thats is misstate of the truth as well, as it turns out that you can FIRE the missiles after about 3 days training. Which is a likely scenario.

    Its fully operating the system to properly track and engage the target that requires sophisticated users.

    http://www.wired.com/2014/07/sa-11-missiles-easy-to-use/

    Remember the US was wrong about WMD in Iraq too. Looks like they pretty sure about who shot it down but have invented Putins finger prints all over it for political reasons.

    Yet the US military shot down a civilian airliner in a reckless and grossly irresponsible manner without any consequences. Pot. Kettle.

  4. infused 4

    The US is releasing sat images/information this arvo of where the missle was launched from.

    • Tracey 4.1

      I look forward to their satelite pictures of rockets fired into and out of Gaza in the last few weeks. Must be due out any day now

  5. ghostwhowalksnz 5

    While I dont place much credence on the Su25 shootdown theory ( the SU25 may have been the target though)

    “I’m a plane-spotter from a way back, with a particular interest in Russian aircraft. The SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft, not an interceptor.”

    Thats not quite how they put in airforce-technology.com ( which isnt user edited)
    http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su25/
    “Weapons

    The wings have ten pylons for carrying a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon systems selected for the mission. Air-to-ground missiles include Kh-23 (Nato codename AS-7 Kerry), Kh-25ML (AS-10 Karen) and Kh-29l (AS-14 Kedge). The air-to-air missiles carried on the smaller outboard pylons are the R-3S (AA-2D Atoll) and the R-60 (AA-8 Aphid).

    The last two are air to air missiles !!

    • Mike Smith 5.1

      The article you cite describes it as a “close-support” aircraft – synonymous with ground attack. It goes on to say:

      The Su-25 is designed to defeat small mobile and stationary ground targets and to engage low-speed air targets at the forward edge and in the nearest tactical and operational depth.

      The air-to-air missiles are for the “low-speed air targets at the forward edge” most likely helicopters.

      The SU-27 is an interceptor.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1.1

        To you and I its lacking in credibility but for most people its near enough.

        Would you believe its an F14 diving toward you or its a normal airliner climbing on its regular route. The US navy reason at the time was even less credible but according to US government its the gospel especially when the other side was the baddies

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1

          IIRC the Captain who ordered the shooting down of the Iranian airliner eventually got promoted.

          • nadis 5.1.1.1.1

            Nitpicking I know, but actually he wasnt promoted. He did receive the Legion of Honor award for meritorious service covering the period when the Iran Air plane was shot down. Which is possibly a worse look than getting promoted anyway, but might have been part of the “tidying up.”

            He left the navy about 3 years after the accident. I say accident because it was, even though said accident was caused by a slightly out of control, overly aggressive captain who dominated his crew to the extent that several of them were too cowed to question what was going on. Theres really good summaries of what happened in places Like Washington Post, New Yorker and Fisk’s clash of civilizations book which all kind of come to that conclusion. I think he prior to the airline shootdown he entered Iran waters against an exlicit directive to shoot us speed boats. There is no doubt that the crew of the Vincennes though they were about to be attacked but this belief was built on a whole series of bad decisions, a faulty belief in their tech and a culture on that boat that was dangerous. The only reason Rogers wasn’t courtartialled and thrown into Leavenworth was the political expediency of the time. The US Navy high command were actually spewing about what an idiot he was, but this happened under Reagan, and followed very shortly after by Bush the first.

            Just grabbed this from Wikipedia on the Iran Air Flight 655 entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

            Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of the USS Sides, the warship stationed near to the Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported to have said that the destruction of the aircraft “marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers’ aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago.”[40] His comment referred to incidents on 2 June, when Rogers had sailed the Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate undertaking a lawful search of a bulk carrier, launched a helicopter within 2–3 miles (3.2–4.8 km) of an Iranian small craft despite rules of engagement requiring a four-mile (6.4 km) separation, and opened fire on small Iranian military boats. Of those incidents, Carlson commented, “Why do you want an Aegis cruiser out there shooting up boats? It wasn’t a smart thing to do.” He also said that Iranian forces he had encountered in the area a month prior to the incident were “…pointedly non-threatening” and professional.[41] At the time of Rogers’ announcement to higher command that he was going to shoot down the plane, Carlson is reported to have been thunderstruck: “I said to folks around me, ‘Why, what the hell is he doing?’ I went through the drill again. F-14. He’s climbing. By now this damn thing is at 7,000 feet.” Carlson thought the Vincennes might have more information, and was unaware that Rogers had been wrongly informed that the plane was diving.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Ahh thanks for that detail; largely corresponds to what I had read about it before.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.2

        The Russian Ministry of Defence has asked a simple question why a Ukranian military jet was apparently climbing toward MH17.

        http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

        The original SU-25 has a low service ceiling yes. The later SU-39 variant based on the two seat trainer version has a much higher ceiling of 10,000m. It would be quite difficult to tell the two different variants apart even within visual range.

    • Sanctuary 5.2

      the R3S and R60 missiles are short range IR homing missiles. The ceiling of the Su-25 could be higher than commonly stated if the aircraft did a zoom, but to have shot down MH17 would have required a most unlikely combination of skill, timing and luck, whereas a BUK11 system is an area denial high altitude SAM system designed to engage violently manoeuvering fighter sized targets in exactly the medium to high altitude range MH17 was flying in.

      • Colonial Viper 5.2.1

        Sounds about right. The Russians have also published photographs of a battery of Ukranian BUK anti-aircraft launchers being moved through the area on that day.

        Which is interesting because the rebel separatists don’t operate any aircraft.

        • Gosman 5.2.1.1

          Two obvious reasons for that.

          Either

          1) The Russian information is incorrect.

          or

          2) The Ukrainian military was moving these weapons in case Russia decided to intervene in a direct manner.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2

        the R3S and R60 missiles are short range IR homing missiles.

        Yep, they are:

        8km range
        35km range

        Which means that, even with 3km difference in altitude, both missiles would have the range from a following SU25 although if it was the R60 the SU would have to get damn close horizontally before firing. Considering that the SU25 is faster than the Boeing 777 that shouldn’t be a problem.

        I have NFI why anybody who wanted to cast blame upon the Ukrainians would bother altering the specs for the plane. But if you wanted to cast doubt upon a report about a Ukrainian SU25 in the area following the plane then you’d have lots of reasons to do so.

  6. Poission 6

    Interestingly the Wikipedia specification for the SU-25 ceiling was apparently recently edited from a Russian IP to back up the story.

    This link from 2008 suggests a service ceiling of 10000 metres.

    http://defencewire.blogspot.co.nz/2008/03/su-25-frogfoot-flying-tank.html

    Looks like a bit of spin.

  7. wtl 7

    The problem with these conspiracy theories, as always, is they are always ludicrously complex. If Ukraine/USA really wanted to shoot down a commercial jet and blame it on Russia, a much better way would to simply have agents pose as rebels and shoot the jet down with a ‘stolen’ Ukranian Buk SAM launcher.

    • Gosman 7.1

      Exactly. Even sending in a special forces team to capture and use a rebel SAM would have been better than using a ground attack aircraft to shoot it down and then blame the rebels.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.2

      What makes you think that that isn’t exactly what happened?

      • Gosman 7.2.1

        Because the Russians and Rebels aren’t claiming that is what happened but instead have created a complex story involving a Ukrainian ground attack fighter shooting the plane down.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.2.1.1

          We weren’t talking about what the Russians and rebels were saying but what the USA/Ukraine may have done.

          We have absolutely no information about what actually shot the plane down – if it was shot down.

          What we have is some video of a SAM launcher driving along the road, a picture of supposedly the same launcher on a truck and the rebels talking using an open frequency all of which is open to conjecture – they may all be outright lies. We also have the Russians saying that an SU25 was following the plane that may also be an outright lie but it’s also the simpler scenario.

          That’s all we have.

          • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.1

            Ukraine, Russia or NATO could be helpful and just issue the radar traces for the day. They all have them.

            • Draco T Bastard 7.2.1.1.1.1

              One side releases their radar records and the other side will then release theirs proving that the first side was wrong. Both will, inevitably, release records that show the story as they want it to be. One side will be the truth and one side won’t be but which is which?

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                They’ll both be lying. Putin won’t address his complicity and neither will Kiev. Obama? Fucking forget it.

          • nadis 7.2.1.1.2

            There are also photographs of aircraft panels showing shrapnel damage completely consistent with an air burst missile.

            • Murray Olsen 7.2.1.1.2.1

              All three missiles mentioned so far come with proximity fuses. They are all air burst.

  8. Pete 8

    The analysis reported in the LA Times is credible.

    American intelligence agencies believe Ukrainian separatists shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet by mistake, possibly by misreading fuzzy radar images on a sophisticated surface-to-air missile launcher provided by Russia, senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday.

    The launcher that U.S. officials believe fired the SA-11 heat-seeking missile used a rudimentary radar system that gives an incomplete picture of what is flying above, officials said. Such antiaircraft systems are designed to be linked to other radar that would allow the crew on the ground to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft.

    Because separatists did not have secondary radar images available, they probably mistook the airliner for a Ukrainian military plane, the officials said.

    The missile that took down the jetliner was probably fired by an “ill-trained crew,” said one U.S. official who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the issue. “It does appear to be a mistake.”

    More worringly

    Since the crash, Russia has increased the movement of military hardware into eastern Ukraine, officials said. On Tuesday morning, U.S. intelligence agencies confirmed that about 20 tanks and armored vehicles crossed Russia into eastern Ukraine.

    It appears Putin is doubling down.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      I very much doubt Russia will be moving any of its own armour into the Ukraine – not deniable enough, and very very easy to spot from even aerial surveillance.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1.1

        Yeah, because they’re so concerned with deniability at this point.

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1

          Indeed they are. Russia has zero interest, economically or politically, in starting a shooting war with Ukraine which would give EU/NATO an excuse to intervene militarily.

          And Ukraine is going to become economically irrelevant to Russia as new pipelines to EU bypassing Ukraine open up.

          Do you believe otherwise.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1.1.1.1

            In case it’s escaped your attention, Russia’s “leader” has been acting against Russia’s interests for some time now. In what universe do you think he’s going to have a change of heart?

            • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1.1

              Since the start of the year Russia has signed major pipeline deals into Europe, is about to take delivery of massive military hardware from France, has recently contracted to supply 30 years of natural gas to China, taken Russian Crimea and its warm sea port back, and is leading BRICs initiatives to de-dollarize the global economy. He has also provided asylum to NSA whistleblower of conscience, Edward Snowden.

              All seems to be well in line with Russian interests, don’t you think?

              Russian Approval of Putin Soars to Highest Level in Years (Gallup, Jul 18)

              Well, at least the Russian people think so. Do you think differently?

              http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Yep. The freedoms of speech, association, thought and assembly you pay lip service to domestically come way behind the economic red herrings you present as measures of success, not to mention gender rights, which you dismiss as identity politics.

                • Colonial Viper

                  I guess it really burns you that Putin IS acting in Russia’s national interests and even has record levels of support from Russian citizens for doing so (according to Gallup).

                  Also quite happy to open up a separate thread where you can bitch about Russia’s human rights record and democratic freedoms vs the US etc.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    How about you apply the same popularity equals best interests metric to New Zealand?

                    PS: if you’re labouring under the delusion that I think Putin equals bad therefore Obama/Kiev equals good please adjust your logic circuits

                  • Populuxe1

                    Feel free to move there.

              • Populuxe1

                Hardly surprising. Putin’s reactionary oppressions against protestors and LGBT people, getting warm and fuzzy with the Orthodox Church, and all the hard man bullshit and territorial expansion (Russia is STrong) bullshit is pure panem et circensis. That’s even without factoring the unfortunate things that seem to happen to people who do a lot of complaining in any sort of public way.

                • ghostwhowalksnz

                  Have you noticed how Obama has taken more legal action against journalists than all previous US Presidents

          • nadis 8.1.1.1.2

            Obama has already stated Nato will not intervene militarily in the Ukraine. Ukraine is not a Nato member with the mutual defence obligations the Nato treaty entails.

          • Populuxe1 8.1.1.1.3

            “Excuse”?! Like NATO really wants to get into a shooting match with Russia. You may have noticed their reluctance to get involved with shennanigans previously because Russia is a very different ballgame to some tinpot theorcracy or dicatorship. Lol. Funny.

    • Colonial Viper 8.2

      possibly by misreading fuzzy radar images on a sophisticated surface-to-air missile launcher provided by Russia

      One other comment – the “fuzzy radar images” line sounds like BS to me designed to fool civvies but won’t fool any military operator in the world for one second. Either the radar can provide the missile system with a target range and bearing to lock on to, or it can’t.

      Without a link to a full radar installation my understanding is that a BUK launcher’s own radar has a strictly limited maximum range.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.1

        Your ‘understanding’ :lol:

        Radar: range, altitude, direction, or speed.

        My bold.

        • greywarbler 8.2.1.1

          We aren’t discussing the merits of Marvel comics or those of model transformers OAB. Let’s have exchange of info and discussion not sneering if you think you know better.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.1.1.1

            Cluebat: Radar is ‘fuzzy’ because of Physics. The limitations of the targeting system are irrelevant.

            The fact that it was deployed in the first place? Not so much.

            • Colonial Viper 8.2.1.1.1.1

              Of course the limitations of the targetting system are very relevant. The targetting system is based on the radar unit being able to properly illuminate the target for the entire duration of the engagement.

              Further the BUK system requires 3-4 vehicles for full operation. With the launcher unit only it is extremely limited in its radar and targetting capabilities.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                …and yet somehow they’ve already managed to shoot down a handful of planes with one.

      • nadis 8.2.2

        These news article dscribe the most plausible explanation to me.

        http://press.ihs.com/press-release/aerospace-defense-terrorism/ihs-janes-analysis-capabilities-ukraines-missile-systems
        http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/radar-missile-identified-jet-24634273

        BUK system is generally three vehicles -launcher, command and control, target acquisition radar. Without the latter 2 the missile launcher can still operate but now it is a “dumb” ssytem with no ability to identify the target.

        Likely explanation: gung ho rebels with russian support but not russian command or directive get all juiced up about shooting down a cargo plane but get MH17 instead. Denial of access to crash site a short sighted and ultimately fruitless attempt to find and remove missile damage indications. But I suspect forensics will be way better than that.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.2.1

          “Gung-ho rebels”.

          Yeah, because the person nation state that provided them with the weapon minus the targeting system weren’t “gung-ho” – aka guilty as fuck – too?

          • nadis 8.2.2.1.1

            of course they are. its like giving a 2 year old toddler a handgun to play with

            • Colonial Viper 8.2.2.1.1.1

              They probably captured the launcher from the Ukranians, along with loads of other munitions and vehicles.

              So are you blaming the Ukranians.

              • Populuxe1

                “Probably”
                I am assuming there was a technical manual that came with it?

                • ghostwhowalksnz

                  The separatists have got BUK systems from Ukraine army bases, plus a lot of Ukraine military and police in the area have gone over to the other side.

                  Did you not notice in Crimea the naval commander and others switched sides

                  You really need to keep up with what has happened on ground

                  • Populuxe1

                    None of which takes away from the fact it was the seperatists, who are still recieving all sorts of support from Russia, so I fail to see that this changes the tenor in any way.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.2.2.2

          BUK system is generally three vehicles -launcher, command and control, target acquisition radar. Without the latter 2 the missile launcher can still operate but now it is a “dumb” ssytem with no ability to identify the target.

          Is THIS Why the Plane Was Shot Down?

          However, a Youtube video made a month before Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down alleges that Ukranian fighter jets were hiding behind passenger planes, pulling away temporarily, dropping bombs on Ukrainian separatists, and then hiding again behind the plane:

          It could be that they were actually shooting at an attack plane and missed with the missile then going on to on to hit the airliner.

  9. ghostwhowalksnz 9

    There is a whole swag of the human stories that have been false as well.

    The Dutch cyclist who was supposed to have cheated death by missing both MH17 and MH370 ?
    No evidence he even had a ticket, but hes not talking at the moment.

    The 100 aids researchers killed on the flight ?. Well would you believe 6 ? Even Obama was caught out by this one.

    “From the days of our founding, the Dutch have been close friends and stalwart allies of the United States of America, and today I want the Dutch people to know that we stand with you shoulder to shoulder in our grief and in our absolute determination to get to the bottom of what happened.”

    Thats not what the Iranians got on in 1988, in fact the guy responsible was promoted not long after.

    “George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): “I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.” Wikipedia

    • Gosman 9.1

      If it was 2 August 1988 then Ronald Reagan was still President.

      Edit: Apologies just noted that it stated George H W Bush was V.P.

      • Populuxe1 9.1.1

        Regardless, it was 25 years and 5 presidents ago and therefore about as relevant as fuck all.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 9.1.1.1

          relevant as fuck all….. mmmm
          USA is reckless, grossly irresponsible, refuses to apologies but its Ok because NOW they are accusing Russia of things they did way back then.

          • Populuxe1 9.1.1.1.1

            I realise that you are probably delusional, but what you just said was the equivalent of saying that Germany can’t point out human rights violations because they killed 6 million Jews once. Do you realise how stupid that is? I mean, fuck, it was Nazi Germany that revealed what the Soviets had done in Katyn. DO YOU UNDERSTAND FALSE EQUIVALENCY?

  10. Jackal 10

    How exactly are we to know who edited the Wikipedia page? Also, the Su-25 was detected by the Russian military gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing…they didn’t say it was flying at the same height.

    I’m not sure of the exact height of MH17 when it was attacked or the capabilities of air-to-air missiles these days. Apparently the R-60 missiles the Su-25 use can hit a target at a distance of up to 12 k’s. The Russian’s are also saying that flight MH17 lost altitude and veered off course, information that is somewhat corroborated by other surveillance systems not controlled by the Russians.

    These are all important facts that need to be properly ascertained before attributing blame.

    The Su-25 isn’t the only explanation the Russians have provided evidence for either. They have also handed over documents showing Ukrainian Buk missile system movements in the southeast of the country at the time the airliner was attacked. This evidence was provided after western media claimed the Ukranian fighters didn’t have any Buk missile systems. They clearly lied in order to blame the Russians, which is a good indication that much of the information we’re being provided is false.

    Contrast that with the story western media has been running more recently, that a Russian Buk missile system was seen returning to Russia with a missile missing. US intelligence officials now say that the video’s origin or content hasn’t been verified. That basically means it’s probably not the Buk system we’re looking for, because without the video being verified it could be any Buk system moving along a road in any country in the entire world.

  11. ianmac 11

    It was an attempt on Putin’s life as he headed home after a visit to SA they claimed. Would Putin be travelling on Maylasian Airlines heading away from Russia?

    • Wayne 11.1

      Would the Ukrainian govt really try and shoot down Putin?

      If they had done so the outcome would be a wholesale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, and the west would have probably felt that they could not really object.

      And I am sure the Ukrainians are smart enough to be able to work that out.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.1

        They aren’t smart enough to stop shelling Slavyansk, and still all the evidence points to a Putin inspired clusterfuck.

    • tinfoilhat 11.2

      Exactly ianmac that is one of the more bizarre conspiracy theories, but not the most bizarre. Here is a list of some of the others…

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/22/mh17-five-bizarre-conspiracy-theories-zionist-plots-illuminati-russian-tv

      As the correspondent writes..

      “..It is no good to say they are merely “alternative” ways of looking at the world, as some of their defenders will counter. There is reality and there is fantasy. We cannot engage with the world, or hope to improve it, without first knowing the true state of things. Conspiracy theories destroy any hope of that.

    • Gosman 11.3

      The story circulating at the time was that Putin’s plane had passed close by the area a short time before hand. Personally I don’t think Putin would be making flights over Ukranian airspace at this time.

    • Colonial Viper 11.4

      Would Putin be travelling on Maylasian Airlines heading away from Russia?

      The plane was in eastern Ukraine travelling toward Russian airspace (on the way to Australia ?).

  12. Wayne 12

    Why would the Ukrainians want to shoot down a large aircraft at 33,000 ft travelling west to east.

    It clearly wasn’t coming from Russia, and the separatists are not operating large aircraft, so it could not possibly be an “enemy” aircraft.

    To imply the Ukrainians shot it down, is to buy into some of the more fanciful conspiracy theories that has them deliberating shooting down a civilian airliner, so they could blame Russia.

    In my view just about everything points to the separatists. Many of them will have had a lot of military training. And shooting down an airliner flying straight and level is much easier than shooting down a maneuvering combat aircraft. I can imagine a few days training is enough to do that. I imagine the separatists thought they were shooting down another Ukrainian I 76, which they had already done (admittedly when it was at a lower altitude).

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1

      Context is everything. Putin’s behaviour indicates the separatists are ‘responsible’, and the Kiev government has been launching artillery attacks against civilian targets, which I think is pretty much guaranteed to make people crazy.

      Putin supplies sophisticated weaponry to people being made crazy by heavy artillery, which is pretty much to be expected from a right wing prick like Putin, and then there’s Kiev’s role.

      • tinfoilhat 12.1.1

        As always the poor people in the middle are caught between lunatics on either side.

        • adam 12.1.1.1

          I agree tinfoilhat, and their extreme right wing nut jobs pulling the strings on both sides.

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.2

        Putin supplies sophisticated weaponry to people being made crazy by heavy artillery, which is pretty much to be expected from a right wing prick like Putin, and then there’s Kiev’s role.

        Putin is not a “right winger” in any kind of recognisable western neoliberal sense.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.2.1

          Oh sure, he’s a democratic socialist and Pussy Riot are a skinhead band.

        • Psycho Milt 12.1.2.2

          He’s a conservative authoritarian closely allied with his country’s religious leaders and running a patronage-based crony capitalist system. It’s a hallmark of right-wing rulers across the Third World.

        • Populuxe1 12.1.2.3

          LOL you are actually certifiable.
          “right winger” in any kind of recognisable western neoliberal sense:

          Socially conservative? Check.
          Authoritarian? Check.
          Wants total control of the media? Check.
          Cosy with religious interests? Check.
          Military hardliner? Check.
          Crony capitalist? Check.

          The man is a fascist. What is your fucking problem?

          • ghostwhowalksnz 12.1.2.3.1

            The Chinese Communist leadership gets doors opened in NZ. John Key was welcoming a top PLA general last week.
            care to comment about their authoritarian tendencies ?

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2

      To imply the Ukrainians shot it down, is to buy into some of the more fanciful conspiracy theories that has them deliberating shooting down a civilian airliner, so they could blame Russia.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

      Are you really trying to deny the fact that such is possible?

  13. Instauration 13

    Asking questions is not the same as postulating a conspiracy theory, it is more like being sceptical of the prevailing conspiracy theory that “Russia did it”

    http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/

    There is an irony that if Eastern Ukraine had the same status as Crimea i.e a free and willing alliance with Russia and subject to their influence, then this tragedy would not have occured.

    • tinfoilhat 13.1

      There is also an irony that if Russia and the USA had adhered to The Budapest Memorandums that there would be less problems in Ukraine than there have been over the last few years.

        • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1

          US Ambassador Victoria Nuland and allied crew helped to facilitate the violent and unconstitutional removal of the elected Ukranian govt, then sat by while the new Ukraine govt used heavy arms against its own towns in the east.

          Plenty of finger pointing to go around.

          • Instauration 13.1.1.1.1

            “Ukraine govt used heavy arms against its own towns in the east.”
            Like the 15 July fighter jet attack on a Snezhnoe residential apartment with 11 civilian deaths.
            Hard to understand how the Ukraine government would prosecute an aerial war and then not restrict the airspace. I think the DPR should be pointing more than fingers.

            • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1.1.1

              This is the weird thing. East Ukranian airspace was restricted. But only up to 32,000 feet. MH-17 was flying at 33,000 feet.

          • Populuxe1 13.1.1.1.2

            You do realise that the interim government was rendered legitimate by the May election, don’t you? Also they were using heavy armaments in the towns in the east because the were crawling with Russ… sorry, couh, heavily armed unidentified forces.

            • Ennui 13.1.1.1.2.1

              Pop, you sound like a total fuck-wit. Everything you have said to date is said through the prism of received information, none of which has any proven veracity. Until you can point to any solid evidence it is impossible to regard you as correct or incorrect. Why dont you get a job in the Pentagon as a sabre rattler, you are quite good at that.

              • Populuxe1

                So where is your information coming from? Is it not equally recieved without about the same or less proven veracity. Also, despite the weird little narrative you have constructed in your imagination, neither I nor any sane person wants a confrontation between NATO and Russia.

                What a horrible, nasty little person you must be – I can only imagine you are either still stuck in the 1960s when the USSR was still vaguely socialist, or you’re too young to have much clue of what you are talking about.

                If I’m supposed to get a job in teh Pentagon, may I suggest you go get a job in the Kremlin creating propaganda for RT.

                • Ennui

                  The whole point Pop is that you don’t seem to be able to understand that there ARE NO VERIFIABLE facts yet from any party. I am awaiting EVIDENCE. You are partisan, I am not. So as an old cynical bastard I don’t trust any truth from the Kremlin or the Pentagon or their respective propaganda vehicles.

            • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1.2.2

              You do realise that the interim government was rendered legitimate by the May election, don’t you?

              The government was not changed according to the requirements and processes enshrined in the Ukranian constiution. There is nothing legitimate about asking people to put pieces of paper in ballot boxes if the election, how it was called, how it was run, etc is not constitutionally valid.

              • Populuxe1

                Neither was the Crimea Referendum, but I don’t see you whining about that.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 13.1.1.1.2.3

              May election for President, the government is formed by parliament which is not due to vote till 2017

    • Chooky 13.2

      @ Insaturation …”being sceptical of the prevailing conspiracy theory that “Russia did it”……interesting!…and quite apart from the military questions …..also seems like USA is not an impartial detached observer as to the conflict in the Ukraine…as some would like us to believe

      http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/23217-the-dangerous-neocon-role-in-ukraine

      http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-ukraine-political-gambit-big-oils-sore-losers-lead-the-drive-to-war/5373250

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2014/03/10/the-ukraine-crisis-is-bolstering-americas-oil-and-gas-boom/

        • northshoredoc 13.2.1.1

          Best you get some better source sites than the global research conspiracy theorists.

          • Chooky 13.2.1.1.1

            well you would say that wouldnt you?…not good enough for you huh?

            Prof Michel Chossudovsky – Archive

            About the author:
            Michel Chossudovsky is an award-winning author, Professor of Economics (emeritus) at the University of Ottawa, Founder and Director of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG), Montreal and Editor of the globalresearch.ca website. He is the author of The Globalization of Poverty and The New World Order (2003) and America’s “War on Terrorism”(2005). His most recent book is entitled Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War (2011). He is also a contributor to the Encyclopaedia Britannica. His writings have been published in more than twenty languages. He can be reached at crgeditor@yahoo.com —————————————————————————————————————– Michel Chossudovsky est directeur du Centre de recherche sur la mondialisation et professeur émérite de sciences économiques à l’Université d’Ottawa. Il est l’auteur de “Guerre et mondialisation, La vérité derrière le 11 septembre”, “La Mondialisation de la pauvreté et nouvel ordre mondial” (best-seller international publié en plus de 10 langues). Contact : crgeditor@yahoo.com

            How about this then?

            From Democracy Now:

            ‘Who Is Provoking the Unrest in Ukraine? A Debate on Role of Russia, United States in Regional Crisis’

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxuOwGeaRII

            • Populuxe1 13.2.1.1.1.1

              Just looking at Wikipedia:

              At the time of the Kosovo war Mike Karadjis accused Chossudovsky of setting out a ‘meticulous frame-up’, ‘full of half-truths, assumptions, and innuendoes about the Kosovo Liberation Army’s alleged use of drug money’, seeking to discredit the KLA.[10]In his book Bosnia, Kosova, and the West, Chossudovsky is referred to as a noted ‘apologist for the Milošević regime’.[11]

              A 2005 article in The Jewish Tribune criticized GlobalResearch.ca as “rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial.” B’nai Brith Canada had complained that there were comments on a forum that questioned how many Jews died in the Holocaust. Website editor Michel Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.[12] The same article also reported that B’nai Brith Canada wrote a letter to the University of Ottawa (Chossudovsky’s former employer) asking for the university “to conduct its own investigation of this propagandist site.”[12]

              Terry O’Neill, in the Western Standard included Chossudovsky on the list of “Canada’s nuttiest professors, those whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues”;[13] criticizing Chussodovsky’s thesis and views — that the U.S. had knowledge of the September 11 attacks before they happened; that Washington had weapons that could influence climate change; and lastly, that the large banking institutions are the cause of the collapse of smaller economies — as “wild-eyed conspiracy theories”.[13]

              • Chooky

                @ Pop

                why not link the WHOLE wiki article ?…you have just linked the criticisms included at the end, which may or may not be justified.

                … that Michel Chossudovsky is Jewish himself would seem to indicate the accusation that he is anti-Semite or anti-Jewish rings a little hollow… or is at least contradictory …maybe he is a Jew with integrity?…

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky

                Michel Chossudovsky (born 1946) is a Canadian economist. A professor of economics (emeritus)[1] at the University of Ottawa,[2] Chossudovsky has been a visiting professor internationally, and has been an adviser to governments of developing countries.[citation needed] He is the author of The Globalization of Poverty and The New World Order (2003) and America’s “War on Terrorism” (2005) and Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War (2011).[3]

                Chossudovsky is the son of a Russian émigré, the career United Nations diplomat and academic Evgeny Chossudovsky (1914–2006).[4]

                Chossudovsky joined the University of Ottawa in 1968.[5] He was a visiting professor at the Pontifical Catholic University of Chile during the 1970-1973 government of Salvador Allende, and it was the effects of General Augusto Pinochet’s post-coup policies which sparked his interest on “economic repression”.[5] Pinochet’s government among other measures quadrupled the price of bread, and Chossudovsky set out to examine the social effects, concluding that the government was engaging not merely in conventional political repression, but also in “economic repression”. Chossudovsky subsequently examined these types of economic policies in a wide range of countries, often associated with International Monetary Fund and/or World Bank programs. One of Chossudovsky’s policy conclusions was the corrosive effect of tax havens, which he argued in a world of increasingly mobile capital had facilitated the “criminalization” of the global economy through movements of large amounts of drug money and other illegal finance: “This critical drain of billions of dollars in capital flight dramatically reduces state tax revenues, paralyses social programs, drives up budget deficits and spurs the accumulation of large public debts.”[5]

                In 2001, Chossudovsky founded the Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), located in Montreal, Canada, becoming its editor and director. It is “committed to curbing the tide of globalisation and disarming the new world order”.[6] CRG maintains websites in several languages, including the English-language GlobalResearch.ca, which are critical of United States foreign policy and NATO as well as the official explanation of the September 11 attacks in 2001 and the war on terror. He said that the Free Syrian Army was created by NATO.[7] Chossudovsky also claimed that deaths of protesters in the Maidan Square in Kiev were “triggered by Neo-Nazi elements”, used “to break the legitimacy of a duly elected government.”[8] He is a favoured commentator at Russia Today.[9] His opinion is regularly asked for by Press TV.[4][5]

                • Populuxe1

                  I linked to the critcisms because they were th emost obvious counterpoint to your gush.

                  • Chooky

                    what “gush” darls?…i replied to northshoredoc using information about the source of the links…after he said : “Best you get some better source sites than the global research conspiracy theorists” (note: he ignored all my other sources and links eg Guardian newspaper and Forbes )

                    …so i did ! ( strictly source information…no “gush”)..you cant please some people

                    …and i threw in a debate between a Jewish history Professor and a rather experienced and lovely CIA analyst for good measure…did you watch that one?

                    .
                    From Democracy Now:

                    ‘Who Is Provoking the Unrest in Ukraine? A Debate on Role of Russia, United States in Regional Crisis’

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxuOwGeaRII

          • Colonial Viper 13.2.1.1.2

            Didn’t you hear? 2013/2014 is the year that conspiracy theory became conspiracy fact.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3

      Questions that occur to me include:

      Why is our government determined to get in bed with arms dealers?

      Why don’t we have an ethics-based foreign policy?

      Why can’t John Key man up and volunteer to feed these warmongers some polonium at the next cartel meet?

      • Instauration 13.3.1

        Good questions OAB, it’s important to remember to be on message and on target :-)

        • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3.1.1

          There are good answers to all these questions:

          We’re determined to get in bed with arms dealers because we’re frightened, and fear is the mind killer.

          We don’t have an ethics-based foreign policy because that’s a terrifying prospect when you’re an authoritarian follower.

          And, John Key would sell the polonium before he reached the airport.

      • Populuxe1 13.3.2

        Given the paucity of nation states who are as pure as the driven snow, who would you rather he got into bed with? By the way Russia is also a massive arms dealer – the Kalishnakov is a fabulously reliable weapon.

    • Populuxe1 13.4

      Oh look, citing RT. Well that’s obviously going to be objective and even handed then.

      • Colonial Viper 13.4.1

        Maybe you prefer the New York Times, which impartially cheer-led the march to the Iraq War 2003 printing verbatim all the Bush administration claims about Saddam’s WMD, the ability to hit the UK with chemical weapons in 45 minutes etc.

        • Populuxe1 13.4.1.1

          You’re really stuck on this whole binary thing about, now what was it George W Bush said… “you’re either with us, or against us”.
          That evectively makes you as intellectually sophisticated as this man:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-23kmhc3P8U

          Those of us with IQs in triple figures are quite capable of the nuinced judgment that neither party are particularly trustworthy.

    • …it is more like being sceptical of the prevailing conspiracy theory that “Russia did it”

      Far from being a ‘prevailing conspiracy theory,’ it hasn’t been published by anyone as far as I’ve seen (except in the form of assertions by a few conspiracy nutters who don’t like facts getting in the way of bigotry).

  14. TeWhareWhero 14

    I saw a great cartoon the other day – the USA says – ‘If you want proof of how much the Russians want war, look at how close they put their country to our military bases’.

    The first casualty of war is truth and, as we’re in a continuous ‘war against terror’ courtesy of the USA, truth is in a pretty parlous state.

    It may have been an accidental shoot down by separatists; it may have been an American / NATO black op to justify intervention in Ukraine; hell, for all we know Mossad did it to divert attention away from their government’s murderous actions in Gaza – we don’t yet know, although the former is probable.

    What pisses me off is the speed with which the USA and its allies have leapt in to use this tragedy to score political points – and the undignified scramble to occupy the moral high ground and the shedding of crocodile tears from people who send missiles and drones that slaughter civilians makes me sick to my stomach.

    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      “Russia” supposedly killing 300 civilians all at once risks a major international flashpoint, according to US/EU.

      Israel killing 500+ civilians, a few dozen a day, is justifiable self-defence – according to the same people.

      • JonL 14.1.1

        Ukraine killing 300 civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk in fierce shelling in the last 4 days is also not an event to notice to the rest of the world…..

        Also, people reported hearing explosions and seeing the plane and bodies fall – no one has reported seeing the quite prominent trail a BUK makes……..

        • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1

          we in the west are very highly propagandised as a population.

          • Populuxe1 14.1.1.1.1

            What’s you’re point of comparison? Russia? China?

            • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1.1.1

              Mine was an absolute, not a comparative statement.

              • Populuxe1

                My, don’t you have tickets on yourself. Does having your head wedged up your arse hurt when you sit down? Next you’ll be using the royal ‘we’ and demanding everything you say be accepted as true as an article of faith because you are speaking ex cathedra and therefore are infallible…

            • Murray Olsen 14.1.1.1.1.2

              We’re possibly more propagandised than the populations of either China or Russia. They learned to be very cynical whereas most of us haven’t yet.

              Cue abuse.

              • Populuxe1

                It would be cruel to abuse someone who is obviously stark raving mad.

                • ghostwhowalksnz

                  Still despairing are you ?

                  “Just a small point. Why the fuck would Ukraine have anti-aircraft missiles set up in the east when the rebels DON’T HAVE ANY FUCKING AIRCRAFT?!?!
                  Christ I despair.”

                  But Ukraine has accused russian planes of crossing the border to shoot down their planes, now thats a reason to have Ukraine SAMs near the Russian border.

                  “Kiev no longer minced its words: “Russia carried out another provocation… A military aircraft of the Russian Armed Forces launched a missile strike against an Su-25 aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces,”

                  These sort of cross boder flights are not uncommon, I think it was Turkey who shot down Syrian aircraft who crossed their border recently, and they arent even in conflict with Syria.

                  The Sky doesnt have signposts saying ‘Border here’

                  • Populuxe1

                    It would hardly be surprising given Russian bombers make regular forays into US, UK, EU and Scandinavian airspace, so I would suggest in your desperate attempt to canonise Putin, you might be being somewhat naif.

                    • ghostwhowalksnz

                      No they dont. They stick to international airspace.

                      Just because one country claims an air defence zone over international waters doesnt mean another country cant fly their military through it.
                      As the US and Japan have done with the claimed Chinese ADZ.

                      Gee you get it wrong quiet a bit.

                    • Populuxe1

                      Oh well, that’s ok then. Pardon me while I polish Putin’s halo.
                      They should rename this the Double Standard in your honour.
                      Seriously, what is it about Puton that you’re in love with? The oppression of LGBT and ethnic minorities? The arresting of dissenters and critics? The assassinations and murders? The annexation of territory? The bombing Chechyens? What exactly? Why do you defend this terrible man as if acknowledging that he’s an evil bastard means that you are somehow supporting the US?

                    • Murray Olsen

                      For someone who’s stark raving mad, I am a lot more factual in my posts than you are. As has already been stated, Russian aircraft tend to stay in international airspace.

                      Do you really believe the crap you post? You seem to be a very bitter and confused person.

                    • Populuxe1

                      Fuck off Olsen. Ooh Ooh look at me, I’m a nuclear capabale bomber touching your airspace, ooooooh, but you can’t touch me because I’m in international air space MILES FROM MY OWN FUCKING COUNTRY – but hey, that can’t possibly be considered provocative because some pompous cock in New Zealand really hates America etc etc.
                      YAWN

              • Colonial Viper

                We’re possibly more propagandised than the populations of either China or Russia. They learned to be very cynical whereas most of us haven’t yet.

                Now that is a good point. And a lot of the processes we are subjected to in the west is not just what we are told in the information stream – it is what is left out.

                • Populuxe1

                  Left out? Like big chunks of th einternet are left out of China?

                  • tinfoilhat

                    Ha funny you mention that……. once when in Shanghai i was watching the tv in the hotel room and a dock on Tibet came on……. for about 30 seconds then was hastily replaced.

    • greywarbler 14.2

      @TeWhareWhero 6.28
      +1

    • tinfoilhat 14.3

      “What pisses me off is the speed with which the USA and its allies have leapt in to use this tragedy to score political points – and the undignified scramble to occupy the moral high ground and the shedding of crocodile tears from people who send missiles and drones that slaughter civilians makes me sick to my stomach.”

      Written without a hint of irony…

    • Wayne 14.4

      Yes, lets go for the conspiracy theories and ignore the obvious suspects.

  15. vto 15

    Who the fuck cares?

    I care as much about this event as everyone cared when the Iranian passenger plane was shot down by the US in 1988.

    Nothing.

    All those dutch and aussies and couple of kiwis and poms and yanks can line up next to the iranians and palestinians and arabs and Syrians.

    It is bullshit the human manner in these situations..

    Try this on people you know….. when you next meet them, say “did you hear there has been another bom go off in London and a couple of hundred people have been killed?”… look for the instant horror in their eyes and then tell them …. “oh woops not London, I mean in Baghdad”… and watch the look in their eyes …

    so telling
    so telling
    the cold and chilling ugly of manwoman

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      Once difference this time is that the opposing sides of the tussle have nuclear tipped ICBMs.

  16. ianmac 16

    One commentator is quite sure that this could topple Putin, though it is clear that the Russian public have very little idea of what has happened.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      Gallup confirms that Putin is suffering from record high popularity in Russia, currently.

      • Populuxe1 16.1.1

        Well yes. This is one of the main reasons he’s doing this in the first place. Nothing like an invasion or a war to boost your popularity.

        • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.1

          that’s Putin’s brilliance. No invasion, no war. Even Crimea was done and dusted in 48 hours, with only a few random shots fired. Yet he still gets Russian street cred for being the strong man who understands traditional Russian values.

          • greywarbler 16.1.1.1.1

            President Putin might have got lucky with his maneouvres to keep the bloodshed down. As someone quoted here yesterday a usa speaker might say that the Russians were being oversensitive about their borders getting too close to European armament sites.

            For a short moment away from sadness, badness and madness here is a vid. My favourite version of them singing Get Lucky (choose the 2nd one down with the Russian writing above. It has a good spirit to it and I think it was one of their last dress rehearsals.)

            http://www.wired.com/2014/02/russian-police-choir-get-lucky/
            It may seem an unlikely choice of song for Russia’s tough police force, but this video shows the Russian Folk Song and Dance Ensemble of the Interior Ministry singing Get Lucky by French duo Daft Punk. I think from Telegraph write up)

            Thinks – Do the USA Forces sing publicly and officially except for The Star Spangled Banner?
            Do Europeans sing Russian pop songs in public and well?
            edited

  17. ghostwhowalksnz 17

    More ( believable) information has come from Russian sources
    http://app.info.aviationweek.com/e/er?s=1076&lid=7660&elq=f59f73438b7a4dfeabbb2c5509c2a71c

    “The MH17 Boeing 777 was in the engagement zone of at least three Buk-M1 (SA-11 Gadfly) batteries of the Ukrainian armed forces in the last stage of its flight, which ended with the deadly crash near Donetsk on July 17, according to intelligence data provided by the Russian defense ministry

    The Russian military adds that it detected another aircraft at 17:21 ascending toward the Malaysian airlines Boeing 777 at a distance of 3-5 km. It was monitored by two radar stations for four minutes and was not equipped with a secondary identification system. Kartapolov says it was a Ukrainian air force Sukhoi Su-25 ground attack aircraft. He stressed that the “Su-25 is capable of reaching the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short time” (the aircraft’s service ceiling is 7,000 meters). The aircraft’s weaponry includes the R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) air-to-air missile capable of striking targets at a distance up to 12 km, the military official says

    They DONT say it shot down MH17 though, just ‘unidentified’ plane was in area which they they say was UKraine Su25

    According to the map and traffic control data shown by the Russian military, Flight MH17 followed an international air route eastbound through Eastern Ukraine. Near Donetsk, the aircraft left the corridor to the north by 14 km from its left edge. Later the aircraft turned to the right, back to the air route, but failed to reach it. According to the ministry, radars detected the aircraft’s speed drop at 17:20 (Moscow time) and lost it at 17:23.
    http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/video/clips/more.htm?id=5086@morfVideoAudioFile

    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      Worth bearing in mind that Putin’s own plane flew through that same sector about 40 minutes previous. Also for full performance, the BUK missile launcher needs to be linked in to its radar vehicle and its command and control vehicle.

      • Populuxe1 17.1.1

        Because if I were Putin, I would of course not only deliberately be flying over a war zone, but indeed I would be flying on a passenger jet in range of the weapons of people who might want to kill me. An absurdity quickly followed by – of course Ukriane would fire on Putin, anything to trigger a massive retaliatory response from a nuclear power.

        You are stark flaming mad, you are. I can’t even begin to imagine why even th emost rabid anti-American would want to blindly defend Putin in the face of all this mounting evidence.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 17.1.1.1

          Mounting evidence ?. You mean the assertions that Putin was ‘ controlling those who shot down the plane’ or assertions ‘some half trained separatists got their targeting wrong’.

          What the US is trying to do is put Putins fingerprints on it, without evidence. Because they wouldnt do anything like shoot down a plane and lie about it ! Much.

          • Populuxe1 17.1.1.1.1

            Oh just stick your fingers in your ers and get back to humming you sycophantic little creep

            • teWhareWhero 17.1.1.1.1.1

              Pop – why are you so furiously hostile towards anyone you disagree with? You seem to expend so much energy on being waspish – it must be exhausting.

              Given you have an IQ in 3 figures and you claim to know everything about everything, I assume you know that being in a state of persistent anger is very bad for you.

              Just saying.

              • Murray Olsen

                “Given you have an IQ in 3 figures” I want a source for that.

              • Populuxe1

                Because there is a limit to how much blind stupidity a human being can take without losing the plot. I am angry, very angry, at people who claim to deplore oppression, tyranny, abuse of human rights, and imperialism, and yet flock to defend exactly that when a vile scumlord like Putin does exactly that. I am positively incandescent.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 17.1.1.1.1.2

              Go show the ‘irrefutable’ proof the US and Ukraine talk about. The raw details not the spin.
              After all Putin was flying back from Brazil at the time must have been easy to read his orders to shoot it down from the intercepted radio comms.

    • Populuxe1 17.2

      So what are the Russians implying it did? Blow kisses?

    • More ( believable) information has come from Russian sources

      Well, it’s at least less unbelievable than the earlier attempts involving a Ukrainian plot to assassinate Putin, but that’s about it. This stuff about a ‘false flag operation’ by the US and Ukraine to make Russia and the separatists look bad may go down a treat among people as ill-informed as the Russians, but it’s not going to play in the rest of the world. Unfortunately for Putin, Occam’s razor says this was most likely down to separatist dumbasses demonstrating why a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 17.3.1

        Is there an official source for that claim or is it one of those ‘rumours’ that have emerged from Moscow or Kiev.

        The sources I have seen say Putin was coming back from Brazil ( a BRICS meeting and FIFA World Cup ceremonies) and the closest the planes might have got was over Warsaw but 3/4 hour apart. Doesnt look like that rumour has even a basic fact check

      • greywarbler 17.3.2

        @ Psychmilt 1.41
        Why do you say that the Russians are ill-informed? Because they haven’t got the benefit of 5 Eyes? There are occasions in the history of every country when they don’t know what is going on. Don’t be too sure about anything that you hear from any source until its checked out thoroughly by impartial people.

        Your last sentence might be on the button, so to speak, but don’t make it also apply to you..

        • Populuxe1 17.3.2.1

          No, it’s because all Russian news services are under orders to blame Ukraine for whatever.

          • Ennui 17.3.2.1.1

            Pop, you are most likely correct that Russian media are under “orders”. You might a;lso have a look for facts and evidence in any Western coverage of this incidence, (as in any Russian coverage for that matter). You wont find any. Zippo, zilch. Its all speculation. You are a parrot for Washington. Or more likely just a complete turkey.

            • Populuxe1 17.3.2.1.1.1

              Which isn’t much better than being an apologist sycophant for Moscow, but hey, I’ll take what I can get.

              • Ennui

                Which bit of this does your dim brain not understand? You might a;lso have a look for facts and evidence in any Western coverage of this incidence, (as in any Russian coverage for that matter). How exactly does that make somebody an apologist sycophant for Moscow. Why not just step back and see how thick you appear?

                • Populuxe1

                  Well this should be interesting. Where is this magical non-partisan information going to come from?

                  • ghostwhowalksnz

                    I was like you and believed all the bullshit from the US etc – once.

                    The Iraq invasion had me all gung ho, it must have been true … they couldnt have lied through their teeth surely.

                    There were some respectable figures saying differently but they lost the ‘noise’ battle.

                    Now I look very very hard at claims, and the lack of verification is startling.
                    of course Sadaam Hussein wasnt someone you could support and Putin doesnt seem much better.

                    But look we arent saying crazy things about the Chinese government who are in terms of democracy 100 times worse than Putin, they are putting their ships around the South China Sea, but not a peep from us.

                    Why ? Surely we havent been bought and our outrage manufactured

                    If that can be live and let live surely its time to be a bit careful about Ukraine.

          • ghostwhowalksnz 17.3.2.1.2

            Under orders ? Really ?

            Your Russian friends must be telling you that, or you just MADE IT UP right now.

            Last time I checked, The Herald prints pretty much everything the National party gives it, doesnt mean they believe it put hey there is space to fill between the ads.
            Recent gems: The huge donations given by a Chinese businessman. None of it was really true but hey who cares.

            Or this:
            “Claudette Hauiti has surrendered her parliamentary charge card after using it to pay for a Christmas trip to Australia.

            Part true it was change trip date for her mother

            Prime Minister John Key said in 2010 that the Government had “led the charge” on transparency of MPs’ spending.

            Thats good to get Keys side of things, it isnt true as Mps spending is still hidden like this one.

      • TeWhareWhero 17.3.3

        “…people as ill-informed as the Russians, but it’s not going to play in the rest of the world” ….

        …which is so incredibly well informed and politically astute.

  18. Chooky 18

    ‘US Intelligence on Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn’t Do It. “US Satellite Photos do not Support Obama’s Lies”

    By Dr. Paul Craig Roberts
    Global Research, July 24, 2014

    [About the author:
    Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury and Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal, has held numerous university appointments. He is a frequent contributor to Global Research. Dr. Roberts can be reached at http://paulcraigroberts.org

    ” After days of placing hostile blame for the downing of the Malaysian airliner on Russia, the White House permitted US intelligence officials to tell reporters that there is no evidence of the Russian government’s involvement.

    Obviously, the US satellite photos do not support the Obama regime’s lies.

    If the White House had any evidence of Russian complicity, it would have released it to great fanfare days ago.

    We are fortunate that the analytical side of the CIA, in contrast with the black ops side, retains analysts with integrity even after the purge of the agency ordered by Dick Cheney. Incensed that the CIA did not immediately fall in line with all of the Bush regime’s war lies, Cheney had the agency purged. The black ops side of the agency is a different story. Many believe that it should be defunded and abolished as this part of the CIA operates in violation of statutory US law……

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-intelligence-on-malaysian-flight-mh17-russia-didnt-do-it-us-satellite-photos-do-not-support-obamas-lies/5393053

    • Populuxe1 18.1

      I have this bridge I’d like to sell you.

      • Chooky 18.1.1

        i need a bridge …what are the dimensions,is it designed by an engineer, what is it made of, and how much do yu want for it ?…and how did you come by it?…i didnt know you were into bridges Pop

        More from Paul Craig Roberts:

        http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/24/washington-escalating-orchestrated-ukrainian-crisis-war-paul-craig-roberts/

        ‘Washington Is Escalating the Orchestrated Ukrainian “Crisis” to War’

        Paul Craig Roberts

        “Despite the conclusion by US intelligence that there is no evidence of Russian involvement in the destruction of the Malaysian airliner and all lives onboard, Washington is escalating the crisis and shepherding it toward war.

        Twenty-two US senators have introduced into the 113th Congress, Second Session, a bill, S.2277, “To prevent further Russian aggression toward Ukraine and other sovereign states in Europe and Eurasia, and for other purposes.” ….

        https://beta.congress.gov/113/bills/s2277/BILLS-113s2277is.pdf The bill is before the Committee on Foreign Relations….

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    Greens | 28-10
  • James Shaw’s Maiden Speech
    Tena Koe, Mr Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to speak a little of the past, the present and the future. The privilege to serve in this Parliament was given to me by all those who gave their...
    Greens | 28-10
  • Govt airs real views on public broadcasting
    An admission by the Government that it is happy to experiment with Pacific and Maori audiences shows just how weak its vision for public broadcasting in New Zealand is, Labour’s Broadcasting spokesperson Kris Faafoi says. “National today admitted it doesn’t...
    Labour | 28-10
  • Does Judith Collins have a get out of jail card?
    Former justice minister Judith Collins appears to have been gifted a get out of jail free card based on the Prime Minister’s answers in Parliament today, Labour’s Acting Deputy Leader Annette King says. “Judith Collins claimed in an Official Information...
    Labour | 28-10
  • Solid Energy decision delay sensible
    Today’s announcement by the Board of Solid Energy that it will delay making a final decision on re-entering the Pike River mine is a sensible move, Labour’s MP for  West Coast-Tasman Damien O’Connor says. “It has been clear for some...
    Labour | 28-10
  • New York Green Bank off to a $1B start
    New York Governor Andrew Cuomo announced late last week the New York Green Bank’s first NZD$1 billion tranche of green energy investments. The projects, which are difficult for the private sector to finance, are now possible by New York Green...
    Greens | 28-10
  • The Final Fifth: The Last Great Task for Progressive New Zealand.
    MOST OF NEW ZEALAND’S social problems are concentrated among those living at the margins of what is otherwise a relatively wealthy society. Recently released international data on child poverty has exposed an acutely stressed social strata encompassing roughly 20 percent...
    The Daily Blog | 31-10
  • Myth Busting Rape Boasters
    In just one week a case that galvanised a nation into discussing rape culture is now being reframed as mischievous teen hi-jinx. One year ago the Roast Busters case came to the attention of the media and the public. This...
    The Daily Blog | 31-10
  • Workers rights weakened by new laws – fightback needed
    The government’s changes to the employment laws are designed to weaken workers bargaining power – at both the individual and collective level.   30-day rule The old law required an employer with a collective agreement in place to employ new...
    The Daily Blog | 31-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Simon Buckingham – Where are Labour Candidates on disability?
    For the few people who know me (hello Mum), I am proudly New Zealand’s first Autistic Spectrum Lawyer, as well as being the very bottom Candidate on the Labour Party List. (64 out of 64). Being honoured like this is...
    The Daily Blog | 31-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Blockade the Budget
    The ‘Independent’ Police Conduct Authority’s report into the policing of student protests in 2012 is a whitewash The report released by the Independent Police Conduct Authority into the policing of student protests in 2012 is a whitewash riddled with inaccuracies....
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • When National claim new anti worker laws provide ‘flexibility’ they mea...
    And so it comes to pass. The first law National ram through as part of their victory march are new anti worker laws they pretend will generate ‘flexibility’. The new law denigrate the unions ability to protect workers and provide...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • City Transport: A Taxing Matter
    This week the prospect of paying tolls on Auckland motorways became a hot topic. (See Mathew Dearnaley:Motorway tolling could hit some hard, NZ Herald, 30 Oct 2014.) As we might expect, the kneejerk response has been quite negative. But, as with...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Open Letter to Amy Adams: Please Reopen The Review Into Sexual Violence Cou...
    Ms Amy Adams, Justice and Courts Minister, Right now in this country it seems that although rape is illegal, it is not being prevented by the agents who uphold the law. It almost feels like rape is only illegal on paper,...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • MEDIA WATCH: Does ‘No-Surprises’ Also Apply To TVNZ News?
    When you stand back and look at NZ media outlets, most of them have at least one or two people who attempt to hold the government to account: John Campbell on TV3, Guyon Espiner and others at Radio NZ, David...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Things That Make You Go Hmmmmmmm
    Every so often in politics, a public figure comes out with something so absurd and so outlandish … that it really does just make you go “Hmmmmmmmmmm”. We’re accustomed to this from certain quarters – by mid point through the...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Poverty & inequality don’t need protest marches – they need a riot:...
    The global level of inequality continues to skyrocket… Number of billionaires doubled since financial crisis The number of billionaires has doubled since the start of the financial crisis, according to a major new report from anti-poverty campaigners. According to Oxfam,...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • If Key knows who Rawshark is…
    I’m sorry, what? John Key ‘given Rawshark’s name’The Prime Minister believes he knows who hacked Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater’s computer and produced the source material for Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics, according to a new edition of a recently published...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Child Poverty stats in NZ
    Child Poverty stats in NZ...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Crimes Act + Police Investigation = WTF
    Just to frame the farce that is the Roastbuster’s investigation and conclusion – here are the parts of the Crime Act http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/whole.html#DLM329057  the Roastbusters are proven to have violated – that the police (and some suspects!) themselves acknowledge occurred: Crimes...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Publishing Journalists’ Home Addresses Is A Tactic Of The Right, Not The ...
    I think I’m starting to get rather annoyed with the conduct of some pro-MANA people over this ongoing Parliamentary Services crew complement issue. Yes, we get that there are legitimate issues to be raised with how some political reporters in...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Aucklanders caught between a tarseal-addicted government and a weak mayor
    Len Brown’s proposal for motorway tolls to reduce congestion and provide funding for better public transport is a weak response to a critical issue. The $12 billion dollar shortfall on transport funding he talks about is mainly for projected new...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • A Very Weird Story: Deconstructing Darren Aronofsky’s Noah.
    NOAH is a curious movie. Conceived as a biblical epic, it’s target audience was originally the millions of Americans who regard the Bible as God’s inerrant word. With the sin-filled works of Hollywood forbidden to these true-believers, Christian movie-makers have developed...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • You Can Get Away With Rape In New Zealand
    Jessie Hume with last years petition against rape     The police have sent a strong message today.  In fact they’ve been sending a strong message for a while; a message that our government supports. “You can literally get away...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Roast Buster case – no charges. In the immortal words of NWA…
    Roast Busters case: No prosecutions Police are to make an announcement this afternoon on Operation Clover, the investigation into the “Roast Busters” allegations. The Herald understands the victim has been told that the alleged offenders will not be prosecuted due...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Key’s flag change distraction to cost $26million!
    No. Way. Bid to change NZ flag to cost millions The cost of holding two referendums and consulting on a change of flag has been estimated to be just under $26 million. Look. We all appreciate that the sleepy hobbits...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Why NZ Herald’s Labour Party crocodile tears are so audacious
    The front page the NZ Herald would use if they thought they could get away with it No one can take the recent columns by NZ Herald seriously… John Armstrong: Shadow lingers on National John Roughan: Labour’s leadership vote matters...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • The beginning of the end of Cameron Slater?
    Slater postings on man bizarre, court told A businessman has changed his appearance and had to install extra security at his home after Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater posted his business and personal documents online, he says. Mr Slater has...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • We are a milk power republic and Fonterra our unelected senate
    Wow. Just wow… Deputy mayor says he’ll be sacked South Taranaki deputy mayor Alex Ballantyne says he expects to be sacked because he has spoken out about the impact gasses coming from dumped Fonterra dairy products have had on his...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • MEDIA WATCH: “…But *actually* this is about ethics in political-game jo...
    Yesterday, a piece of mine on the recent revelations about Hone Harawira employing several gentlemen either accused or convicted of sex offences was published on The Daily Blog. Predictably, given the fierce loyalty which Hone inspires in his party faithful and...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • Privilege cheque
    There was no race problem in my childhood. Living in central Wellington I was well-insulated from what was going on not so far away. This was the 60s and 70s, where the teachers enjoyed free love in the staff room...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • A brief word on Key’s claim that it will be raining carnage
    Isis will ‘rain carnage on the world’ – John Key Left unchecked Isis would “rain carnage on the world”, Prime Minister John Key says, but he has yet to make a decision on whether New Zealand troops will join a...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • Meanwhile…
    ...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • How does Andrew Little win Labour Leadership and unify the caucus?
    Audrey Young’s excellent column on how the Caucus vote  is shaping up shows how Andrew Little becomes the next leader of the Labour Party. She identifies the factions as the following… Andrew Little 6: Andrew Little, David Cunliffe, Iain Lees Galloway,...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Trinder – Right of response to Curwen
    You have asked that Hone Harawira deserves to explain what happened, how would he explain when his next door neighbour is an alleged sex offender. What explanation can Hone offer he wasn’t involved, Hone had no idea this offending was...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • MEDIA WATCH: That Hella-Weird Feeling When You Defend Tova O’Brien
    Oh dear. Yesterday morning I blogged that Hone deserved a chance to explain what exactly had happened as applies his office’s Parliamentary Services crew complement – and, importantly, that we deserve to be able to judge him on the strength of...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • Canadian Green MP warns against harsh anti-terror measures
    Canada’s Green Party has provided a welcome counterpoint to Prime Minister Harper’s call for tougher anti-terrorism laws in the wake of a soldier outside the Canadian Parliament. On October 22, while she was still locked in her parliamentary office, Green...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • When is an asset sale not an asset sale? When it robs from the poor and ste...
    National have turned state housing on its head. At no time during the 2014 election did the Key Government even hint that they were going to privatise 30% of the Housing NZ stock of state homes. Not once. Key even...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • Housing; broken promises, families in cars, and ideological idiocy (Part To...
    . . Continued from: Housing; broken promises, families in cars, and ideological idiocy (Part Rua) . Bill English comes clean on National’s intentions for HNZ privatisation . On 14 October, in a report on The Daily Blog, I wrote, In...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • The Questions Have Been Asked – They Deserve An Answer
    A few days ago, allegations that had been percolating for some time about Hone Harawira employing three either accused or convicted sex offenders on his Parliamentary pay-roll came to light. (one imprisoned before working for MANA; one who found himself convicted and...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • I have seen one future, and it is bleak
    . . Back in  March 2012, I wrote this story regarding a march to support striking workers at Ports of Auckland. It appears there was some prescience about some of my observations at the time… . | | 18 March...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • US air strike war Key wants us in has killed a civilian a day so far
      The US air strike war that John Key wants us to join has killed a civilian a day so far. From the Washington Post... The United States launched its first airstrikes on militants in Syria on Sept. 23, and has continued...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • The instant Jihad syndrome
    My favourite new term is ‘self-radicalised’ – it suggests the reasons for terrorism are totally divorced from the actions of the West. This need to suddenly ramp up terror laws because of lone wolf, self-radicalised Jihadists seems convenient and counter-productive....
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • We have nothing to fear from Ebola but fear itself
    I suspect most Americans perceive Ebola like this   I can’t work out if the fear being spread within the media about Ebola is deliberate or just ignorance. Yes Ebola is a terrible plague that kills a large percentage of...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Anjum Rahman – “Meritocracy? I wish.”
    I’d like to start by linking to a post I had published at another site in support of Nanaia Mahuta for the Labour Party leadership election.  She has a reasonable chance, given that she already has the endorsement of Te...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • Chocolate milk shortage and creepy Santa? Let’s talk about real news
    Child poverty is still a scarily serious problem in this country and house prices are soaring through the roof to the point where it is simply impossible for the average New Zealander to buy a home. There is also little...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • It’s time to celebrate Kiwi schools and teachers
    Some would have you believe that New Zealand’s schools are in a state of collapse, that your children are not being educated well and that things are going to hell in a hand basket.  That there is no innovation, no...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • Ideological Blitzkrieg – Privatization of state housing, more charter sch...
    Pundits in pundit land will tell you that this Government is boring, that Key is the great pragmatist and that it is his ability to create elegant solutions that keeps him the firm favourite in many Kiwi eyes. This ability...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • Hegemony rules but resistance is fertile
    The Prime Minister is a puppet. Not just our current Prime Minister, but given the forces of multinational globalisation, the role of any head of state, is less as independent actor, and more as a puppet of international trends and...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • An open Letter to Sir Bob Jones: demanding a ‘liveable wage’ is not “...
    How out of touch with reality is Sir Bob Jones? You know, that white dude who invested in privatised SOEs after the selling off of our assets in the eighties and made a ludicrous and disgusting amount of money and is...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • My insecurity about the Security Council
    As I write this (on 24 October) it is international UN Day. Of course, you all knew that already, right? Well, the day celebrates the entry into force of the UN Charter in 1945. With the ratification of this founding...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Catherine Delahunty – Back in That House
    Parliament opened this week and I still find it a very odd place. Most of the people are reasonably courteous and friendly, but the rituals are archaic and the rules around issues like the swearing in oath are oppressive and...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Marae Investigates No More
    TVNZ yesterday announced the closure of their Māori and Pacific programmes department. That means they’ve chosen to stop making Fresh, Tagata Pasifika, Waka Huia and Marae Investigates to let independent producers get their hands on these lucrative contracts. This is...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • BLOGWATCH: An Un-Civil War in Labour, eh?
    Earlier today, my attention was directed to an entry that’s just recently appeared on the Slightly Left of Centre blog. It purports to contain the ‘inside word’ from a highly placed NZF source – which is funny, because I’m pretty sure...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Santanomics 101
    Santanomics could mean a number of things. It could be the study and practice of giving. Or it could mean the study and practice of rampant end-of-year commercialism. However, for me today it is the economics of erectingAuckland’s giant Santa...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • SkyCity boss misleads public over workers lost shifts
    SkyCity CEO Nigel Morrison has defended the employment practices at his company in an “Opinion” piece entitled “Human Capital key to corporate success” in the NZ Herald on Thursday. A number of his claims are misleading, contain only partial truths...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Roast Busters: Turn Indignation into Action
    People raged about the Roast Buster case. The indignation was justified – it was horrible. “Where were their parents!?” Fair question. I am sure the Roast Busters’ parents and the victims’ parents all wish they had been more proactive in...
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Stats NZ only have themselves to blame for postponement
    The Public Service Association (PSA) says Statistics NZ only have themselves to blame for the indefinite postponement of the release of the Food Price Index: November 2014....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • NZ Diversity Survey – benchmarking workplace diversity
    AUT University’s New Zealand Work Research Institute (NZWRI) has released a report on diversity in New Zealand workplaces....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Māori Language (Te Reo Māori) Bill
    Tutehounuku Korako, Chair of the Māori Affairs Committee, is inviting further public submissions on this bill. The closing date for submissions is Friday, 5 December 2014....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • ERA amendments a mixed bag
    The Employment Relations Amendment Act has the potential to put vulnerable workers in a more precarious position, says Equal Opportunities Commissioner, Dr Jackie Blue. However, the commissioner says the right for all to request flexible work hours is...
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Sensible Sentencing calls for appeal of judicial activivism
    The Sensible Sentencing Trust is appalled that Justice Jill Mallon has today refused to apply the Life without Parole (LWOP) provisions of the Three Strikes law as enacted by Parliament....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Global Rally against ISIS – for Kobanê – for Humanity, Nov 1
    The New Zealand Kurdish Community will march in solidarity with Kurdistan as part of the “GLOBAL RALLY AGAINST ISIS – FOR KOBANÊ – FOR HUMANITY” on 1 November 2014, 2pm....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Does ‘No-Surprises’ Also Apply To TVNZ News?
    When you stand back and look at NZ media outlets, most of them have at least one or two people who attempt to hold the government to account: John Campbell on TV3, Guyon Espiner and others at Radio NZ, David...
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Safer roads are better for everyone
    Recent pedestrian versus vehicle incidents highlight the real issues being addressed by delegates as the 2Walk and Cycle conference concludes....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Law change creates more flexible labour market
    The Employment Relations Amendment Act, passed yesterday, will bring new flexibility to the labour market and will reduce the ability of unions to organise and to recruit....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Bumper ANZ profits mean no excuse for insecure hours
    A big rise in profits at New Zealand's largest bank needs to be reflected in a better pay offer and more security around hours of work, the bank workers’ union said today....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Count down to lowered alcohol limit
    With just a month to go until a new lower alcohol limit for adult drivers comes into effect, Police and road safety agencies are reminding drivers of the impending change....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • WorkSafe Supports Forestry Review Findings
    WorkSafe NZ says the Independent Forestry Safety Review has clearly identified the problems facing an industry in which ten workers were killed last year. “The Review’s analysis matches our own view and leaves no doubt about the need for comprehensive,...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • CTU welcomes forestry review recommendations
    The CTU is welcoming the today's release of the independent forestry safety review panel findings. "These recommendations must be implemented to ensure that everything possible is done to make forestry safer." CTU President, Helen Kelly said....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Activists will confront animal abusers
    Today animal rights activists will confront a group of wealth advisers who want to build the biggest egg factory-farm in New Zealand....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Turia: Women’s Refuge Conference 2014
    This is a milestone moment in my life. This will be my last official address as Co-leader of the Maori Party. On Saturday night at our Hui-a-Tau, I will be standing down from that role and enabling a new co-leader,...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Rodeo Code of Welfare ‘Sick Joke’
    Animal advocacy organisation SAFE says the revised Code of Welfare for Rodeos just released is nothing but a sick joke. “Rodeo animals are goaded, tormented and forced to endure needless suffering and gross mistreatment, all for the sake of so-called...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Conservative Party applauds binding referenda on flag
    The Conservative Party are congratulating the Government on the decision to hold two binding referendums to decide the fate of New Zealand’s flag – and believes it will pave the way for binding referenda to form part of New Zealand...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Walk the Talk – Opposing violence against women
    Soroptimist International of Auckland have organised a walk on 22 November from Silo Park at the Wynyard Quarter through the Viaduct and back to Silo Park, to show their opposition to violence against women. This event hopes to raise awareness...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Recommendations on the Design of Pecuniary Penalties
    The Law Commission has reviewed the use of pecuniary penalties as a regulatory tool. Pecuniary penalties are financial penalties that policymakers are increasingly opting to use in place of criminal sanctions in order to punish and deter misconduct in...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Every worker will be affected by employment law changes
    Every worker will feel the effects of the government’s new employment laws and should join a union if they want to maintain and increase their wages and conditions, says New Zealand’s largest private sector union, the EPMU....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Shameful attack on all workers
    The Government has passed the Employment Relations Amendment Act slashing the rights of all Kiwi workers. “These changes are shameful. New Zealand now has some of the worst employment protections in the OECD. It is embarrassing that a country which...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Unnecessary law changes more to do with ideology
    The government’s employment law changes are simply ideological and are at odds with its approach in the related areas of health and safety and immigration law, FIRST Union said tonight....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • CTU Runanga calls on iwi leaders
    Maori workers are calling on iwi leaders to speak out against the employment law changes expected to go through today. “Iwi leaders have previously spoken out when workers in Aotearoa have been under attack, we believe they should do so...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Educating children not the best solution to alcohol harm
    Alcohol Healthwatch says we need to look beyond educating children and young people to address deeply embedded attitudes and behaviours concerning alcohol....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • New code of welfare for rodeos released
    New standards to strengthen the animal welfare requirements for rodeos have been issued today by the Minister for Primary Industries, Nathan Guy....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • IPCA report riddle with inaccuracies, say students
    A report by the Independent Police Conduct Authority into the policing of student protests in 2012 is riddled with inaccuracies, say students who laid the original complaint with the IPCA....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • CT v The Queen – indecency convictions quashed
    This summary is provided to assist in the understanding of the Court’s judgment. It does not comprise part of the reasons for that judgment. The full judgment with reasons is the only authoritative document. The full text of the judgment...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Rameka v The Queen – murder convictions quashed
    This summary is provided to assist in the understanding of the Court’s judgment. It does not comprise part of the reasons for that judgment. The full judgment with reasons is the only authoritative document. The full text of the judgment...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Auckland Council Out of Control
    Responding to the NZ Herald article that some Auckland households will face a rates rise of up to 9.6 per cent next year, Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director Jordan Williams says: “Len Brown’s pledge to cap rates rises at 2.5 per...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Stats NZ staff escalate action with ‘no more meetings’ rule
    Statistics NZ staff have voted to escalate their ongoing industrial action in an effort to get Stats NZ back to the bargaining table with a reasonable offer. The staff, who are members of the Public Service Association (PSA), have been...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Rape Crisis calls for changes to criminal justice system
    Wellington Rape Crisis has added its voice to the public outcry following the announcement that there will be no charges in the teen rape gang case. Butterworth says the decision not to lay charges will not have been a surprise...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Police action justified in Blockade the Budget demonstration
    Police actions in dealing with a demonstration in Central Auckland known as Blockade the Budget on 1 June 2012 were justified and appropriate, an Independent Police Conduct Authority report released today found....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • NZDF Joins with Australia to Commemorate WWI Centenary
    A contingent of New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel will join their Australian counterparts at Australia’s first major commemoration of the First World War centenary in Albany, Western Australia this weekend....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Reserve Bank should reduce interest rate
    “The Reserve Bank should be reducing its policy interest rate, the OCR”, says CTU Economist Bill Rosenberg in response to the Bank’s announcement today that it is not increasing it....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • 2015 Stout Fellow will write about Māori & Criminal Justice
    Kim Workman, founder and advocate for the Robson Hanan Trust, which administers the Rethinking Crime and Punishment and Justspeak initiatives, has been awarded the 2015 John David Stout Fellowship at Victoria University....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • What John Key thought about ‘dirty politics’
    On September 20, John Key swept to victory to become one of New Zealand’s most successful and popular Prime Ministers. Rocked by scandal, the 2014 election campaign was one of the most brutal – and riveting – in recent history....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Trade Deal Threatens Farmers and Food Businesses
    The secret Trans Pacific Partnership negotiations are a direct threat to food businesses and farmers, and a moratorium on the release of GE crops must be enshrined in law before the TPP is signed....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • CTU announces election of new Secretary
    The contested election for the position of CTU Secretary has been won by Sam Huggard. Sam officially takes office on Monday 1 December 2014. Sam has worked in the union movement and brings a wealth of experience and a commitment...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Kim Workman awarded 2015 J.D. Stout Fellowship
    The Victoria University of Wellington 2015 J.D. Stout Fellowship, funded by the Stout Trust, has been awarded to justice reform advocate Kim Workman. Mr Workman (Ngati Kahungungu ki Wairarapa, Rangitaane) is well known for his work on criminal justice,...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • TPPA causing concern
    Concern over the secretive Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) negotiations is being expressed in two public meetings over the next week; one at a presentation on 5th November by former councillor Robin Gwynn to the Napier City Council, the...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Kiwis rally to demand justice for ‘Roast Buster’ survivors
    Over 1,500 kiwis have rallied to demand justice after the announcement of the NZ Police decision not to lay charges in the ‘Roast Busters’ saga....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • New employment law will hurt the most vulnerable NZers
    The Public Service Association (PSA) says changes to the Employment Relations Act, expected to be passed in Parliament tonight, will hurt vulnerable workers and their families more than anyone....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Consultation to close on proposed place names
    The New Zealand Geographic Board (NZGB) Ngā Pou Taunaha o Aotearoa today advised that only one month remains before public consultation closes for 18 name proposals for geographic features and places around Te Ika ā Māui (the North Island)....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Operation Clover – Statement from Police Commissioner
    I have taken a close interest in this investigation and I am confident police have conducted a thorough and professional enquiry in what has been a challenging and complex case. The Operation Clover team has ensured that victims have been...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Better policy would have protected children from recession
    Child Poverty Action Group says an international report released by UNICEF today shows good policy can protect and improve child well-being, even during a recession....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Outcome of Operation Clover investigation
    Police have completed a multi-agency investigation, Operation Clover, into the activities of a group calling themselves “The Roast Busters”. The 12 month enquiry focused on incidents involving allegations of sexual offending against a number of girls...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • False birth registration brings home detention
    A Whangarei woman who attempted to register the birth of a fictitious child to claim a sole parent benefit was sentenced to six months home detention in the Whangarei District Court today....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Family of Robert Ellis demand a proper investigation
    The family of a New Zealander killed in Indonesia are growing increasingly concerned at the lack of information they’ve received, and the handling of the investigation into his murder....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Minister of Health must account for aged care workers’ pay
    The New Zealand Federation of Business and Professional Women (BPW NZ) congratulates rest-home worker Kristine Bartlett on her landmark claim for equal pay from her employer and successfully pursuing this to the Court of Appeal....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
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