Russian blameshift backfire

Written By: - Date published: 1:50 pm, July 23rd, 2014 - 194 comments
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Today’s DomPost carries a story (not on Stuff but reprinted from the Sydney Morning Herald) showing Russian Air Force officers claiming that a Ukrainian fighter was close to Malaysian MF17. It was described as a “SU-25 fighter jet, which is typically equipped with air-to-air missiles.”

I’m a plane-spotter from a way back, with a particular interest in Russian aircraft. The SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft, not an interceptor. Its unloaded ceiling is 23,000 feet. well below the height at which MF 17 was flying. Its secondary armament is short-range small warhead air-to-air missiles. Interestingly the Wikipedia specification for the SU-25 ceiling was apparently recently edited from a Russian IP to back up the story.

The Russian generals were specific – they named and blamed  a SU-25. The Financial Times sets out the reasons why the Russian scenario is not credible.

194 comments on “Russian blameshift backfire ”

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  1. shorts 1
    23 July 2014 at 2:05 pm

    In war, truth is the first casualty – and in this instance there is much posturing and blame throwing going on from all quarters

    The only fact we really know is the plane came down and someone is to blame – the rest is propaganda and opinion at this point

    • Gosman 1.1
      23 July 2014 at 2:15 pm

      You can make a certain amount of educated guesses though based on known facts and common sense. The Ukrainian rebels have shot transport aircraft out of the sky before and seem to have access to sophisticated weaponry like the SAM thought to be involved in the downing of the plane. The Ukrainian government hasn’t been shooting planes down in the area and as far as I am aware the rebels don’t even have planes to shoot down. The Rebels made some boasts about downing a plane on social media just after the plane went down and then deleted them. The Rebels have not been entirely helpful allowing invesigators get to the site and ensuring that it has not been tampered with which would be in their interest if the Ukrainian government was responsible. Applying Occams razor to this the most obvious explanation was that it was shot down by the Rebels but most likely as a result of a tragic misunderstanding.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.1
        23 July 2014 at 2:36 pm

        Dont believe that part about comments on social media- for goodness sake its Donbass region not Grey Lynn. Ever heard of fake twitter accounts?

        Theres even pictures of missile launchers anywhere theres lots of Russians, including Knightsbridge

      • shorts 1.1.2
        23 July 2014 at 2:39 pm

        I agree with your reasoning – but this is still a guess, educated and believable sure. It is most likely the rebels – but is it the rebels acting independently, acting under russia guidence or just russian special forces acting as rebels… or or something else????

        The rebels possibly have more pressing issues (fighting/winning) than worrying too much about allowing investigators and the like to the crash site, unless it helps their cause

        I don’t trust the Russians nor Americans to tell us one word of truth – I do have faith in them bullshitting and producing evidence that supports that bullshit to promote their desired outcome

        • Gosman 1.1.2.1
          23 July 2014 at 2:49 pm

          It would have helped their cause immensely if they had allowed access and ensured the site was kept relatively uncontaminated especially if they weren’t to blame for the downing of the aircraft. The more worrying aspect is the reports of parts of the wreckage being cut away by some group prior to the investigators getting there. That is most concerning.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.2.1.1
            23 July 2014 at 3:30 pm

            It won’t make any difference in the end; they might be able to make off with large bits of evidence but they’ll never cover all the traces of explosives etc.

          • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.2.1.2
            23 July 2014 at 3:43 pm

            Parts of crashed aircraft have ended up on the spares market before, some can be quiet valuable. This is what happens in crashes in fairly rural areas that are spread over some large areas.

      • Ennui 1.1.3
        24 July 2014 at 2:32 pm

        Occams razor???? Gos, try the “who benefits” question. If there is some benefit for the “rebels” (aka people who are being bombed so quite reasonably might knock planes out of the sky), or for Putin I cant quite see it. As a false flag operation by the Ukraine or the Pentagon it makes perfect sense. And I don’t even think they would be so stupid. All any of us have is speculation.

  2. Gosman 2
    23 July 2014 at 2:05 pm

    I’m pleasantly surprised by this article especially considering I m having a heated discussion on Facebook with someone who is pushing the Russian version of events in a big way.

  3. ghostwhowalksnz 3
    23 July 2014 at 2:12 pm

    Another scenario that isnt credible is that put out by Secretary of State Kerry is the BUK missile system is far too sophisticated for ordinary joes or ivans to operate.

    Thats is misstate of the truth as well, as it turns out that you can FIRE the missiles after about 3 days training. Which is a likely scenario.

    Its fully operating the system to properly track and engage the target that requires sophisticated users.

    http://www.wired.com/2014/07/sa-11-missiles-easy-to-use/

    Remember the US was wrong about WMD in Iraq too. Looks like they pretty sure about who shot it down but have invented Putins finger prints all over it for political reasons.

    Yet the US military shot down a civilian airliner in a reckless and grossly irresponsible manner without any consequences. Pot. Kettle.

  4. infused 4
    23 July 2014 at 2:21 pm

    The US is releasing sat images/information this arvo of where the missle was launched from.

    • Tracey 4.1
      23 July 2014 at 4:56 pm

      I look forward to their satelite pictures of rockets fired into and out of Gaza in the last few weeks. Must be due out any day now

  5. ghostwhowalksnz 5
    23 July 2014 at 2:21 pm

    While I dont place much credence on the Su25 shootdown theory ( the SU25 may have been the target though)

    “I’m a plane-spotter from a way back, with a particular interest in Russian aircraft. The SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft, not an interceptor.”

    Thats not quite how they put in airforce-technology.com ( which isnt user edited)
    http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su25/
    “Weapons

    The wings have ten pylons for carrying a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon systems selected for the mission. Air-to-ground missiles include Kh-23 (Nato codename AS-7 Kerry), Kh-25ML (AS-10 Karen) and Kh-29l (AS-14 Kedge). The air-to-air missiles carried on the smaller outboard pylons are the R-3S (AA-2D Atoll) and the R-60 (AA-8 Aphid).

    The last two are air to air missiles !!

    • Mike Smith 5.1
      23 July 2014 at 2:37 pm

      The article you cite describes it as a “close-support” aircraft – synonymous with ground attack. It goes on to say:

      The Su-25 is designed to defeat small mobile and stationary ground targets and to engage low-speed air targets at the forward edge and in the nearest tactical and operational depth.

      The air-to-air missiles are for the “low-speed air targets at the forward edge” most likely helicopters.

      The SU-27 is an interceptor.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1.1
        23 July 2014 at 3:23 pm

        To you and I its lacking in credibility but for most people its near enough.

        Would you believe its an F14 diving toward you or its a normal airliner climbing on its regular route. The US navy reason at the time was even less credible but according to US government its the gospel especially when the other side was the baddies

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 3:33 pm

          IIRC the Captain who ordered the shooting down of the Iranian airliner eventually got promoted.

          • nadis 5.1.1.1.1
            23 July 2014 at 7:35 pm

            Nitpicking I know, but actually he wasnt promoted. He did receive the Legion of Honor award for meritorious service covering the period when the Iran Air plane was shot down. Which is possibly a worse look than getting promoted anyway, but might have been part of the “tidying up.”

            He left the navy about 3 years after the accident. I say accident because it was, even though said accident was caused by a slightly out of control, overly aggressive captain who dominated his crew to the extent that several of them were too cowed to question what was going on. Theres really good summaries of what happened in places Like Washington Post, New Yorker and Fisk’s clash of civilizations book which all kind of come to that conclusion. I think he prior to the airline shootdown he entered Iran waters against an exlicit directive to shoot us speed boats. There is no doubt that the crew of the Vincennes though they were about to be attacked but this belief was built on a whole series of bad decisions, a faulty belief in their tech and a culture on that boat that was dangerous. The only reason Rogers wasn’t courtartialled and thrown into Leavenworth was the political expediency of the time. The US Navy high command were actually spewing about what an idiot he was, but this happened under Reagan, and followed very shortly after by Bush the first.

            Just grabbed this from Wikipedia on the Iran Air Flight 655 entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

            Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of the USS Sides, the warship stationed near to the Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported to have said that the destruction of the aircraft “marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers’ aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago.”[40] His comment referred to incidents on 2 June, when Rogers had sailed the Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate undertaking a lawful search of a bulk carrier, launched a helicopter within 2–3 miles (3.2–4.8 km) of an Iranian small craft despite rules of engagement requiring a four-mile (6.4 km) separation, and opened fire on small Iranian military boats. Of those incidents, Carlson commented, “Why do you want an Aegis cruiser out there shooting up boats? It wasn’t a smart thing to do.” He also said that Iranian forces he had encountered in the area a month prior to the incident were “…pointedly non-threatening” and professional.[41] At the time of Rogers’ announcement to higher command that he was going to shoot down the plane, Carlson is reported to have been thunderstruck: “I said to folks around me, ‘Why, what the hell is he doing?’ I went through the drill again. F-14. He’s climbing. By now this damn thing is at 7,000 feet.” Carlson thought the Vincennes might have more information, and was unaware that Rogers had been wrongly informed that the plane was diving.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1.1
              24 July 2014 at 2:49 pm

              Ahh thanks for that detail; largely corresponds to what I had read about it before.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.2
        23 July 2014 at 3:29 pm

        The Russian Ministry of Defence has asked a simple question why a Ukranian military jet was apparently climbing toward MH17.

        http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

        The original SU-25 has a low service ceiling yes. The later SU-39 variant based on the two seat trainer version has a much higher ceiling of 10,000m. It would be quite difficult to tell the two different variants apart even within visual range.

    • Sanctuary 5.2
      23 July 2014 at 2:39 pm

      the R3S and R60 missiles are short range IR homing missiles. The ceiling of the Su-25 could be higher than commonly stated if the aircraft did a zoom, but to have shot down MH17 would have required a most unlikely combination of skill, timing and luck, whereas a BUK11 system is an area denial high altitude SAM system designed to engage violently manoeuvering fighter sized targets in exactly the medium to high altitude range MH17 was flying in.

      • Colonial Viper 5.2.1
        23 July 2014 at 3:05 pm

        Sounds about right. The Russians have also published photographs of a battery of Ukranian BUK anti-aircraft launchers being moved through the area on that day.

        Which is interesting because the rebel separatists don’t operate any aircraft.

        • Gosman 5.2.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 3:08 pm

          Two obvious reasons for that.

          Either

          1) The Russian information is incorrect.

          or

          2) The Ukrainian military was moving these weapons in case Russia decided to intervene in a direct manner.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2
        23 July 2014 at 4:18 pm

        the R3S and R60 missiles are short range IR homing missiles.

        Yep, they are:

        8km range
        35km range

        Which means that, even with 3km difference in altitude, both missiles would have the range from a following SU25 although if it was the R60 the SU would have to get damn close horizontally before firing. Considering that the SU25 is faster than the Boeing 777 that shouldn’t be a problem.

        I have NFI why anybody who wanted to cast blame upon the Ukrainians would bother altering the specs for the plane. But if you wanted to cast doubt upon a report about a Ukrainian SU25 in the area following the plane then you’d have lots of reasons to do so.

  6. Poission 6
    23 July 2014 at 2:36 pm

    Interestingly the Wikipedia specification for the SU-25 ceiling was apparently recently edited from a Russian IP to back up the story.

    This link from 2008 suggests a service ceiling of 10000 metres.

    http://defencewire.blogspot.co.nz/2008/03/su-25-frogfoot-flying-tank.html

    Looks like a bit of spin.

  7. wtl 7
    23 July 2014 at 2:47 pm

    The problem with these conspiracy theories, as always, is they are always ludicrously complex. If Ukraine/USA really wanted to shoot down a commercial jet and blame it on Russia, a much better way would to simply have agents pose as rebels and shoot the jet down with a ‘stolen’ Ukranian Buk SAM launcher.

    • Gosman 7.1
      23 July 2014 at 3:05 pm

      Exactly. Even sending in a special forces team to capture and use a rebel SAM would have been better than using a ground attack aircraft to shoot it down and then blame the rebels.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.2
      23 July 2014 at 4:26 pm

      What makes you think that that isn’t exactly what happened?

      • Gosman 7.2.1
        23 July 2014 at 4:34 pm

        Because the Russians and Rebels aren’t claiming that is what happened but instead have created a complex story involving a Ukrainian ground attack fighter shooting the plane down.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.2.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 4:50 pm

          We weren’t talking about what the Russians and rebels were saying but what the USA/Ukraine may have done.

          We have absolutely no information about what actually shot the plane down – if it was shot down.

          What we have is some video of a SAM launcher driving along the road, a picture of supposedly the same launcher on a truck and the rebels talking using an open frequency all of which is open to conjecture – they may all be outright lies. We also have the Russians saying that an SU25 was following the plane that may also be an outright lie but it’s also the simpler scenario.

          That’s all we have.

          • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.1
            23 July 2014 at 6:18 pm

            Ukraine, Russia or NATO could be helpful and just issue the radar traces for the day. They all have them.

            • Draco T Bastard 7.2.1.1.1.1
              23 July 2014 at 6:59 pm

              One side releases their radar records and the other side will then release theirs proving that the first side was wrong. Both will, inevitably, release records that show the story as they want it to be. One side will be the truth and one side won’t be but which is which?

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                23 July 2014 at 8:17 pm

                They’ll both be lying. Putin won’t address his complicity and neither will Kiev. Obama? Fucking forget it.

          • nadis 7.2.1.1.2
            23 July 2014 at 7:37 pm

            There are also photographs of aircraft panels showing shrapnel damage completely consistent with an air burst missile.

            • Murray Olsen 7.2.1.1.2.1
              24 July 2014 at 5:07 am

              All three missiles mentioned so far come with proximity fuses. They are all air burst.

  8. Pete 8
    23 July 2014 at 3:23 pm

    The analysis reported in the LA Times is credible.

    American intelligence agencies believe Ukrainian separatists shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet by mistake, possibly by misreading fuzzy radar images on a sophisticated surface-to-air missile launcher provided by Russia, senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday.

    The launcher that U.S. officials believe fired the SA-11 heat-seeking missile used a rudimentary radar system that gives an incomplete picture of what is flying above, officials said. Such antiaircraft systems are designed to be linked to other radar that would allow the crew on the ground to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft.

    Because separatists did not have secondary radar images available, they probably mistook the airliner for a Ukrainian military plane, the officials said.

    The missile that took down the jetliner was probably fired by an “ill-trained crew,” said one U.S. official who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the issue. “It does appear to be a mistake.”

    More worringly

    Since the crash, Russia has increased the movement of military hardware into eastern Ukraine, officials said. On Tuesday morning, U.S. intelligence agencies confirmed that about 20 tanks and armored vehicles crossed Russia into eastern Ukraine.

    It appears Putin is doubling down.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1
      23 July 2014 at 6:17 pm

      I very much doubt Russia will be moving any of its own armour into the Ukraine – not deniable enough, and very very easy to spot from even aerial surveillance.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1.1
        23 July 2014 at 6:20 pm

        Yeah, because they’re so concerned with deniability at this point.

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 6:29 pm

          Indeed they are. Russia has zero interest, economically or politically, in starting a shooting war with Ukraine which would give EU/NATO an excuse to intervene militarily.

          And Ukraine is going to become economically irrelevant to Russia as new pipelines to EU bypassing Ukraine open up.

          Do you believe otherwise.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1.1.1.1
            23 July 2014 at 6:41 pm

            In case it’s escaped your attention, Russia’s “leader” has been acting against Russia’s interests for some time now. In what universe do you think he’s going to have a change of heart?

            • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1.1
              23 July 2014 at 6:51 pm

              Since the start of the year Russia has signed major pipeline deals into Europe, is about to take delivery of massive military hardware from France, has recently contracted to supply 30 years of natural gas to China, taken Russian Crimea and its warm sea port back, and is leading BRICs initiatives to de-dollarize the global economy. He has also provided asylum to NSA whistleblower of conscience, Edward Snowden.

              All seems to be well in line with Russian interests, don’t you think?

              Russian Approval of Putin Soars to Highest Level in Years (Gallup, Jul 18)

              Well, at least the Russian people think so. Do you think differently?

              http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                23 July 2014 at 7:00 pm

                Yep. The freedoms of speech, association, thought and assembly you pay lip service to domestically come way behind the economic red herrings you present as measures of success, not to mention gender rights, which you dismiss as identity politics.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  23 July 2014 at 7:28 pm

                  I guess it really burns you that Putin IS acting in Russia’s national interests and even has record levels of support from Russian citizens for doing so (according to Gallup).

                  Also quite happy to open up a separate thread where you can bitch about Russia’s human rights record and democratic freedoms vs the US etc.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    23 July 2014 at 7:31 pm

                    How about you apply the same popularity equals best interests metric to New Zealand?

                    PS: if you’re labouring under the delusion that I think Putin equals bad therefore Obama/Kiev equals good please adjust your logic circuits

                  • Populuxe1 …
                    23 July 2014 at 11:07 pm

                    Feel free to move there.

              • Populuxe1 …
                23 July 2014 at 11:05 pm

                Hardly surprising. Putin’s reactionary oppressions against protestors and LGBT people, getting warm and fuzzy with the Orthodox Church, and all the hard man bullshit and territorial expansion (Russia is STrong) bullshit is pure panem et circensis. That’s even without factoring the unfortunate things that seem to happen to people who do a lot of complaining in any sort of public way.

                • ghostwhowalksnz …
                  24 July 2014 at 10:42 am

                  Have you noticed how Obama has taken more legal action against journalists than all previous US Presidents

          • nadis 8.1.1.1.2
            23 July 2014 at 7:39 pm

            Obama has already stated Nato will not intervene militarily in the Ukraine. Ukraine is not a Nato member with the mutual defence obligations the Nato treaty entails.

          • Populuxe1 8.1.1.1.3
            23 July 2014 at 11:02 pm

            “Excuse”?! Like NATO really wants to get into a shooting match with Russia. You may have noticed their reluctance to get involved with shennanigans previously because Russia is a very different ballgame to some tinpot theorcracy or dicatorship. Lol. Funny.

    • Colonial Viper 8.2
      23 July 2014 at 6:24 pm

      possibly by misreading fuzzy radar images on a sophisticated surface-to-air missile launcher provided by Russia

      One other comment – the “fuzzy radar images” line sounds like BS to me designed to fool civvies but won’t fool any military operator in the world for one second. Either the radar can provide the missile system with a target range and bearing to lock on to, or it can’t.

      Without a link to a full radar installation my understanding is that a BUK launcher’s own radar has a strictly limited maximum range.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.1
        23 July 2014 at 6:45 pm

        Your ‘understanding’ 😆

        Radar: range, altitude, direction, or speed.

        My bold.

        • greywarbler 8.2.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 7:03 pm

          We aren’t discussing the merits of Marvel comics or those of model transformers OAB. Let’s have exchange of info and discussion not sneering if you think you know better.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.1.1.1
            23 July 2014 at 7:16 pm

            Cluebat: Radar is ‘fuzzy’ because of Physics. The limitations of the targeting system are irrelevant.

            The fact that it was deployed in the first place? Not so much.

            • Colonial Viper 8.2.1.1.1.1
              24 July 2014 at 2:54 pm

              Of course the limitations of the targetting system are very relevant. The targetting system is based on the radar unit being able to properly illuminate the target for the entire duration of the engagement.

              Further the BUK system requires 3-4 vehicles for full operation. With the launcher unit only it is extremely limited in its radar and targetting capabilities.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                24 July 2014 at 3:06 pm

                …and yet somehow they’ve already managed to shoot down a handful of planes with one.

      • nadis 8.2.2
        23 July 2014 at 7:50 pm

        These news article dscribe the most plausible explanation to me.

        http://press.ihs.com/press-release/aerospace-defense-terrorism/ihs-janes-analysis-capabilities-ukraines-missile-systems
        http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/radar-missile-identified-jet-24634273

        BUK system is generally three vehicles -launcher, command and control, target acquisition radar. Without the latter 2 the missile launcher can still operate but now it is a “dumb” ssytem with no ability to identify the target.

        Likely explanation: gung ho rebels with russian support but not russian command or directive get all juiced up about shooting down a cargo plane but get MH17 instead. Denial of access to crash site a short sighted and ultimately fruitless attempt to find and remove missile damage indications. But I suspect forensics will be way better than that.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.2.1
          23 July 2014 at 8:27 pm

          “Gung-ho rebels”.

          Yeah, because the person nation state that provided them with the weapon minus the targeting system weren’t “gung-ho” – aka guilty as fuck – too?

          • nadis 8.2.2.1.1
            23 July 2014 at 10:58 pm

            of course they are. its like giving a 2 year old toddler a handgun to play with

            • Colonial Viper 8.2.2.1.1.1
              23 July 2014 at 11:21 pm

              They probably captured the launcher from the Ukranians, along with loads of other munitions and vehicles.

              So are you blaming the Ukranians.

              • Populuxe1 …
                24 July 2014 at 1:01 am

                “Probably”
                I am assuming there was a technical manual that came with it?

                • ghostwhowalksnz …
                  24 July 2014 at 10:46 am

                  The separatists have got BUK systems from Ukraine army bases, plus a lot of Ukraine military and police in the area have gone over to the other side.

                  Did you not notice in Crimea the naval commander and others switched sides

                  You really need to keep up with what has happened on ground

                  • Populuxe1 …
                    24 July 2014 at 12:10 pm

                    None of which takes away from the fact it was the seperatists, who are still recieving all sorts of support from Russia, so I fail to see that this changes the tenor in any way.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.2.2.2
          24 July 2014 at 8:33 pm

          BUK system is generally three vehicles -launcher, command and control, target acquisition radar. Without the latter 2 the missile launcher can still operate but now it is a “dumb” ssytem with no ability to identify the target.

          Is THIS Why the Plane Was Shot Down?

          However, a Youtube video made a month before Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down alleges that Ukranian fighter jets were hiding behind passenger planes, pulling away temporarily, dropping bombs on Ukrainian separatists, and then hiding again behind the plane:

          It could be that they were actually shooting at an attack plane and missed with the missile then going on to on to hit the airliner.

  9. ghostwhowalksnz 9
    23 July 2014 at 3:30 pm

    There is a whole swag of the human stories that have been false as well.

    The Dutch cyclist who was supposed to have cheated death by missing both MH17 and MH370 ?
    No evidence he even had a ticket, but hes not talking at the moment.

    The 100 aids researchers killed on the flight ?. Well would you believe 6 ? Even Obama was caught out by this one.

    “From the days of our founding, the Dutch have been close friends and stalwart allies of the United States of America, and today I want the Dutch people to know that we stand with you shoulder to shoulder in our grief and in our absolute determination to get to the bottom of what happened.”

    Thats not what the Iranians got on in 1988, in fact the guy responsible was promoted not long after.

    “George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): “I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.” Wikipedia

    • Gosman 9.1
      23 July 2014 at 4:37 pm

      If it was 2 August 1988 then Ronald Reagan was still President.

      Edit: Apologies just noted that it stated George H W Bush was V.P.

      • Populuxe1 9.1.1
        23 July 2014 at 11:16 pm

        Regardless, it was 25 years and 5 presidents ago and therefore about as relevant as fuck all.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 9.1.1.1
          24 July 2014 at 10:32 am

          relevant as fuck all….. mmmm
          USA is reckless, grossly irresponsible, refuses to apologies but its Ok because NOW they are accusing Russia of things they did way back then.

          • Populuxe1 9.1.1.1.1
            24 July 2014 at 12:14 pm

            I realise that you are probably delusional, but what you just said was the equivalent of saying that Germany can’t point out human rights violations because they killed 6 million Jews once. Do you realise how stupid that is? I mean, fuck, it was Nazi Germany that revealed what the Soviets had done in Katyn. DO YOU UNDERSTAND FALSE EQUIVALENCY?

  10. Jackal 10
    23 July 2014 at 3:54 pm

    How exactly are we to know who edited the Wikipedia page? Also, the Su-25 was detected by the Russian military gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing…they didn’t say it was flying at the same height.

    I’m not sure of the exact height of MH17 when it was attacked or the capabilities of air-to-air missiles these days. Apparently the R-60 missiles the Su-25 use can hit a target at a distance of up to 12 k’s. The Russian’s are also saying that flight MH17 lost altitude and veered off course, information that is somewhat corroborated by other surveillance systems not controlled by the Russians.

    These are all important facts that need to be properly ascertained before attributing blame.

    The Su-25 isn’t the only explanation the Russians have provided evidence for either. They have also handed over documents showing Ukrainian Buk missile system movements in the southeast of the country at the time the airliner was attacked. This evidence was provided after western media claimed the Ukranian fighters didn’t have any Buk missile systems. They clearly lied in order to blame the Russians, which is a good indication that much of the information we’re being provided is false.

    Contrast that with the story western media has been running more recently, that a Russian Buk missile system was seen returning to Russia with a missile missing. US intelligence officials now say that the video’s origin or content hasn’t been verified. That basically means it’s probably not the Buk system we’re looking for, because without the video being verified it could be any Buk system moving along a road in any country in the entire world.

  11. ianmac 11
    23 July 2014 at 4:23 pm

    It was an attempt on Putin’s life as he headed home after a visit to SA they claimed. Would Putin be travelling on Maylasian Airlines heading away from Russia?

    • Wayne 11.1
      23 July 2014 at 4:37 pm

      Would the Ukrainian govt really try and shoot down Putin?

      If they had done so the outcome would be a wholesale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, and the west would have probably felt that they could not really object.

      And I am sure the Ukrainians are smart enough to be able to work that out.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.1
        23 July 2014 at 5:06 pm

        They aren’t smart enough to stop shelling Slavyansk, and still all the evidence points to a Putin inspired clusterfuck.

    • tinfoilhat 11.2
      23 July 2014 at 4:38 pm

      Exactly ianmac that is one of the more bizarre conspiracy theories, but not the most bizarre. Here is a list of some of the others…

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/22/mh17-five-bizarre-conspiracy-theories-zionist-plots-illuminati-russian-tv

      As the correspondent writes..

      “..It is no good to say they are merely “alternative” ways of looking at the world, as some of their defenders will counter. There is reality and there is fantasy. We cannot engage with the world, or hope to improve it, without first knowing the true state of things. Conspiracy theories destroy any hope of that.

    • Gosman 11.3
      23 July 2014 at 4:43 pm

      The story circulating at the time was that Putin’s plane had passed close by the area a short time before hand. Personally I don’t think Putin would be making flights over Ukranian airspace at this time.

    • Colonial Viper 11.4
      24 July 2014 at 2:57 pm

      Would Putin be travelling on Maylasian Airlines heading away from Russia?

      The plane was in eastern Ukraine travelling toward Russian airspace (on the way to Australia ?).

  12. Wayne 12
    23 July 2014 at 4:33 pm

    Why would the Ukrainians want to shoot down a large aircraft at 33,000 ft travelling west to east.

    It clearly wasn’t coming from Russia, and the separatists are not operating large aircraft, so it could not possibly be an “enemy” aircraft.

    To imply the Ukrainians shot it down, is to buy into some of the more fanciful conspiracy theories that has them deliberating shooting down a civilian airliner, so they could blame Russia.

    In my view just about everything points to the separatists. Many of them will have had a lot of military training. And shooting down an airliner flying straight and level is much easier than shooting down a maneuvering combat aircraft. I can imagine a few days training is enough to do that. I imagine the separatists thought they were shooting down another Ukrainian I 76, which they had already done (admittedly when it was at a lower altitude).

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1
      23 July 2014 at 4:47 pm

      Context is everything. Putin’s behaviour indicates the separatists are ‘responsible’, and the Kiev government has been launching artillery attacks against civilian targets, which I think is pretty much guaranteed to make people crazy.

      Putin supplies sophisticated weaponry to people being made crazy by heavy artillery, which is pretty much to be expected from a right wing prick like Putin, and then there’s Kiev’s role.

      • tinfoilhat 12.1.1
        23 July 2014 at 4:53 pm

        As always the poor people in the middle are caught between lunatics on either side.

        • adam 12.1.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 8:30 pm

          I agree tinfoilhat, and their extreme right wing nut jobs pulling the strings on both sides.

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.2
        24 July 2014 at 3:00 pm

        Putin supplies sophisticated weaponry to people being made crazy by heavy artillery, which is pretty much to be expected from a right wing prick like Putin, and then there’s Kiev’s role.

        Putin is not a “right winger” in any kind of recognisable western neoliberal sense.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.2.1
          24 July 2014 at 3:12 pm

          Oh sure, he’s a democratic socialist and Pussy Riot are a skinhead band.

        • Psycho Milt 12.1.2.2
          24 July 2014 at 3:35 pm

          He’s a conservative authoritarian closely allied with his country’s religious leaders and running a patronage-based crony capitalist system. It’s a hallmark of right-wing rulers across the Third World.

        • Populuxe1 12.1.2.3
          24 July 2014 at 4:14 pm

          LOL you are actually certifiable.
          “right winger” in any kind of recognisable western neoliberal sense:

          Socially conservative? Check.
          Authoritarian? Check.
          Wants total control of the media? Check.
          Cosy with religious interests? Check.
          Military hardliner? Check.
          Crony capitalist? Check.

          The man is a fascist. What is your fucking problem?

          • ghostwhowalksnz 12.1.2.3.1
            27 July 2014 at 10:11 am

            The Chinese Communist leadership gets doors opened in NZ. John Key was welcoming a top PLA general last week.
            care to comment about their authoritarian tendencies ?

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2
      24 July 2014 at 8:41 pm

      To imply the Ukrainians shot it down, is to buy into some of the more fanciful conspiracy theories that has them deliberating shooting down a civilian airliner, so they could blame Russia.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

      Are you really trying to deny the fact that such is possible?

  13. Instauration 13
    23 July 2014 at 4:47 pm

    Asking questions is not the same as postulating a conspiracy theory, it is more like being sceptical of the prevailing conspiracy theory that “Russia did it”

    http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/

    There is an irony that if Eastern Ukraine had the same status as Crimea i.e a free and willing alliance with Russia and subject to their influence, then this tragedy would not have occured.

    • tinfoilhat 13.1
      23 July 2014 at 4:51 pm

      There is also an irony that if Russia and the USA had adhered to The Budapest Memorandums that there would be less problems in Ukraine than there have been over the last few years.

        • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 6:37 pm

          US Ambassador Victoria Nuland and allied crew helped to facilitate the violent and unconstitutional removal of the elected Ukranian govt, then sat by while the new Ukraine govt used heavy arms against its own towns in the east.

          Plenty of finger pointing to go around.

          • Instauration 13.1.1.1.1
            23 July 2014 at 7:11 pm

            “Ukraine govt used heavy arms against its own towns in the east.”
            Like the 15 July fighter jet attack on a Snezhnoe residential apartment with 11 civilian deaths.
            Hard to understand how the Ukraine government would prosecute an aerial war and then not restrict the airspace. I think the DPR should be pointing more than fingers.

            • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1.1.1
              23 July 2014 at 10:35 pm

              This is the weird thing. East Ukranian airspace was restricted. But only up to 32,000 feet. MH-17 was flying at 33,000 feet.

          • Populuxe1 13.1.1.1.2
            24 July 2014 at 9:03 am

            You do realise that the interim government was rendered legitimate by the May election, don’t you? Also they were using heavy armaments in the towns in the east because the were crawling with Russ… sorry, couh, heavily armed unidentified forces.

            • Ennui 13.1.1.1.2.1
              24 July 2014 at 2:44 pm

              Pop, you sound like a total fuck-wit. Everything you have said to date is said through the prism of received information, none of which has any proven veracity. Until you can point to any solid evidence it is impossible to regard you as correct or incorrect. Why dont you get a job in the Pentagon as a sabre rattler, you are quite good at that.

              • Populuxe1 …
                24 July 2014 at 4:22 pm

                So where is your information coming from? Is it not equally recieved without about the same or less proven veracity. Also, despite the weird little narrative you have constructed in your imagination, neither I nor any sane person wants a confrontation between NATO and Russia.

                What a horrible, nasty little person you must be – I can only imagine you are either still stuck in the 1960s when the USSR was still vaguely socialist, or you’re too young to have much clue of what you are talking about.

                If I’m supposed to get a job in teh Pentagon, may I suggest you go get a job in the Kremlin creating propaganda for RT.

                • Ennui …
                  25 July 2014 at 1:50 pm

                  The whole point Pop is that you don’t seem to be able to understand that there ARE NO VERIFIABLE facts yet from any party. I am awaiting EVIDENCE. You are partisan, I am not. So as an old cynical bastard I don’t trust any truth from the Kremlin or the Pentagon or their respective propaganda vehicles.

            • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1.2.2
              24 July 2014 at 3:02 pm

              You do realise that the interim government was rendered legitimate by the May election, don’t you?

              The government was not changed according to the requirements and processes enshrined in the Ukranian constiution. There is nothing legitimate about asking people to put pieces of paper in ballot boxes if the election, how it was called, how it was run, etc is not constitutionally valid.

              • Populuxe1 …
                24 July 2014 at 4:17 pm

                Neither was the Crimea Referendum, but I don’t see you whining about that.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 13.1.1.1.2.3
              25 July 2014 at 11:35 am

              May election for President, the government is formed by parliament which is not due to vote till 2017

    • Chooky 13.2
      23 July 2014 at 5:22 pm

      @ Insaturation …”being sceptical of the prevailing conspiracy theory that “Russia did it”……interesting!…and quite apart from the military questions …..also seems like USA is not an impartial detached observer as to the conflict in the Ukraine…as some would like us to believe

      http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/23217-the-dangerous-neocon-role-in-ukraine

      http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-ukraine-political-gambit-big-oils-sore-losers-lead-the-drive-to-war/5373250

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2014/03/10/the-ukraine-crisis-is-bolstering-americas-oil-and-gas-boom/

        • northshoredoc 13.2.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 6:00 pm

          Best you get some better source sites than the global research conspiracy theorists.

          • Chooky 13.2.1.1.1
            23 July 2014 at 6:40 pm

            well you would say that wouldnt you?…not good enough for you huh?

            Prof Michel Chossudovsky – Archive

            About the author:
            Michel Chossudovsky is an award-winning author, Professor of Economics (emeritus) at the University of Ottawa, Founder and Director of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG), Montreal and Editor of the globalresearch.ca website. He is the author of The Globalization of Poverty and The New World Order (2003) and America’s “War on Terrorism”(2005). His most recent book is entitled Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War (2011). He is also a contributor to the Encyclopaedia Britannica. His writings have been published in more than twenty languages. He can be reached at crgeditor@yahoo.com —————————————————————————————————————– Michel Chossudovsky est directeur du Centre de recherche sur la mondialisation et professeur émérite de sciences économiques à l’Université d’Ottawa. Il est l’auteur de “Guerre et mondialisation, La vérité derrière le 11 septembre”, “La Mondialisation de la pauvreté et nouvel ordre mondial” (best-seller international publié en plus de 10 langues). Contact : crgeditor@yahoo.com

            How about this then?

            From Democracy Now:

            ‘Who Is Provoking the Unrest in Ukraine? A Debate on Role of Russia, United States in Regional Crisis’

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxuOwGeaRII

            • Populuxe1 13.2.1.1.1.1
              24 July 2014 at 12:02 am

              Just looking at Wikipedia:

              At the time of the Kosovo war Mike Karadjis accused Chossudovsky of setting out a ‘meticulous frame-up’, ‘full of half-truths, assumptions, and innuendoes about the Kosovo Liberation Army’s alleged use of drug money’, seeking to discredit the KLA.[10]In his book Bosnia, Kosova, and the West, Chossudovsky is referred to as a noted ‘apologist for the Milošević regime’.[11]

              A 2005 article in The Jewish Tribune criticized GlobalResearch.ca as “rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial.” B’nai Brith Canada had complained that there were comments on a forum that questioned how many Jews died in the Holocaust. Website editor Michel Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.[12] The same article also reported that B’nai Brith Canada wrote a letter to the University of Ottawa (Chossudovsky’s former employer) asking for the university “to conduct its own investigation of this propagandist site.”[12]

              Terry O’Neill, in the Western Standard included Chossudovsky on the list of “Canada’s nuttiest professors, those whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues”;[13] criticizing Chussodovsky’s thesis and views — that the U.S. had knowledge of the September 11 attacks before they happened; that Washington had weapons that could influence climate change; and lastly, that the large banking institutions are the cause of the collapse of smaller economies — as “wild-eyed conspiracy theories”.[13]

              • Chooky …
                24 July 2014 at 3:00 pm

                @ Pop

                why not link the WHOLE wiki article ?…you have just linked the criticisms included at the end, which may or may not be justified.

                … that Michel Chossudovsky is Jewish himself would seem to indicate the accusation that he is anti-Semite or anti-Jewish rings a little hollow… or is at least contradictory …maybe he is a Jew with integrity?…

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky

                Michel Chossudovsky (born 1946) is a Canadian economist. A professor of economics (emeritus)[1] at the University of Ottawa,[2] Chossudovsky has been a visiting professor internationally, and has been an adviser to governments of developing countries.[citation needed] He is the author of The Globalization of Poverty and The New World Order (2003) and America’s “War on Terrorism” (2005) and Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War (2011).[3]

                Chossudovsky is the son of a Russian émigré, the career United Nations diplomat and academic Evgeny Chossudovsky (1914–2006).[4]

                Chossudovsky joined the University of Ottawa in 1968.[5] He was a visiting professor at the Pontifical Catholic University of Chile during the 1970-1973 government of Salvador Allende, and it was the effects of General Augusto Pinochet’s post-coup policies which sparked his interest on “economic repression”.[5] Pinochet’s government among other measures quadrupled the price of bread, and Chossudovsky set out to examine the social effects, concluding that the government was engaging not merely in conventional political repression, but also in “economic repression”. Chossudovsky subsequently examined these types of economic policies in a wide range of countries, often associated with International Monetary Fund and/or World Bank programs. One of Chossudovsky’s policy conclusions was the corrosive effect of tax havens, which he argued in a world of increasingly mobile capital had facilitated the “criminalization” of the global economy through movements of large amounts of drug money and other illegal finance: “This critical drain of billions of dollars in capital flight dramatically reduces state tax revenues, paralyses social programs, drives up budget deficits and spurs the accumulation of large public debts.”[5]

                In 2001, Chossudovsky founded the Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), located in Montreal, Canada, becoming its editor and director. It is “committed to curbing the tide of globalisation and disarming the new world order”.[6] CRG maintains websites in several languages, including the English-language GlobalResearch.ca, which are critical of United States foreign policy and NATO as well as the official explanation of the September 11 attacks in 2001 and the war on terror. He said that the Free Syrian Army was created by NATO.[7] Chossudovsky also claimed that deaths of protesters in the Maidan Square in Kiev were “triggered by Neo-Nazi elements”, used “to break the legitimacy of a duly elected government.”[8] He is a favoured commentator at Russia Today.[9] His opinion is regularly asked for by Press TV.[4][5]

                • Populuxe1 …
                  24 July 2014 at 4:24 pm

                  I linked to the critcisms because they were th emost obvious counterpoint to your gush.

                  • Chooky …
                    24 July 2014 at 5:16 pm

                    what “gush” darls?…i replied to northshoredoc using information about the source of the links…after he said : “Best you get some better source sites than the global research conspiracy theorists” (note: he ignored all my other sources and links eg Guardian newspaper and Forbes )

                    …so i did ! ( strictly source information…no “gush”)..you cant please some people

                    …and i threw in a debate between a Jewish history Professor and a rather experienced and lovely CIA analyst for good measure…did you watch that one?

                    .
                    From Democracy Now:

                    ‘Who Is Provoking the Unrest in Ukraine? A Debate on Role of Russia, United States in Regional Crisis’

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxuOwGeaRII

          • Colonial Viper 13.2.1.1.2
            23 July 2014 at 8:55 pm

            Didn’t you hear? 2013/2014 is the year that conspiracy theory became conspiracy fact.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3
      23 July 2014 at 5:30 pm

      Questions that occur to me include:

      Why is our government determined to get in bed with arms dealers?

      Why don’t we have an ethics-based foreign policy?

      Why can’t John Key man up and volunteer to feed these warmongers some polonium at the next cartel meet?

      • Instauration 13.3.1
        23 July 2014 at 5:38 pm

        Good questions OAB, it’s important to remember to be on message and on target 🙂

        • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 8:34 pm

          There are good answers to all these questions:

          We’re determined to get in bed with arms dealers because we’re frightened, and fear is the mind killer.

          We don’t have an ethics-based foreign policy because that’s a terrifying prospect when you’re an authoritarian follower.

          And, John Key would sell the polonium before he reached the airport.

      • Populuxe1 13.3.2
        24 July 2014 at 12:19 pm

        Given the paucity of nation states who are as pure as the driven snow, who would you rather he got into bed with? By the way Russia is also a massive arms dealer – the Kalishnakov is a fabulously reliable weapon.

    • Populuxe1 13.4
      23 July 2014 at 11:19 pm

      Oh look, citing RT. Well that’s obviously going to be objective and even handed then.

      • Colonial Viper 13.4.1
        23 July 2014 at 11:25 pm

        Maybe you prefer the New York Times, which impartially cheer-led the march to the Iraq War 2003 printing verbatim all the Bush administration claims about Saddam’s WMD, the ability to hit the UK with chemical weapons in 45 minutes etc.

        • Populuxe1 13.4.1.1
          23 July 2014 at 11:34 pm

          You’re really stuck on this whole binary thing about, now what was it George W Bush said… “you’re either with us, or against us”.
          That evectively makes you as intellectually sophisticated as this man:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-23kmhc3P8U

          Those of us with IQs in triple figures are quite capable of the nuinced judgment that neither party are particularly trustworthy.

    • Psycho Milt 13.5
      24 July 2014 at 3:37 pm

      …it is more like being sceptical of the prevailing conspiracy theory that “Russia did it”

      Far from being a ‘prevailing conspiracy theory,’ it hasn’t been published by anyone as far as I’ve seen (except in the form of assertions by a few conspiracy nutters who don’t like facts getting in the way of bigotry).

  14. TeWhareWhero 14
    23 July 2014 at 6:28 pm

    I saw a great cartoon the other day – the USA says – ‘If you want proof of how much the Russians want war, look at how close they put their country to our military bases’.

    The first casualty of war is truth and, as we’re in a continuous ‘war against terror’ courtesy of the USA, truth is in a pretty parlous state.

    It may have been an accidental shoot down by separatists; it may have been an American / NATO black op to justify intervention in Ukraine; hell, for all we know Mossad did it to divert attention away from their government’s murderous actions in Gaza – we don’t yet know, although the former is probable.

    What pisses me off is the speed with which the USA and its allies have leapt in to use this tragedy to score political points – and the undignified scramble to occupy the moral high ground and the shedding of crocodile tears from people who send missiles and drones that slaughter civilians makes me sick to my stomach.

    • Colonial Viper 14.1
      23 July 2014 at 6:34 pm

      “Russia” supposedly killing 300 civilians all at once risks a major international flashpoint, according to US/EU.

      Israel killing 500+ civilians, a few dozen a day, is justifiable self-defence – according to the same people.

      • JonL 14.1.1
        23 July 2014 at 11:44 pm

        Ukraine killing 300 civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk in fierce shelling in the last 4 days is also not an event to notice to the rest of the world…..

        Also, people reported hearing explosions and seeing the plane and bodies fall – no one has reported seeing the quite prominent trail a BUK makes……..

        • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1
          24 July 2014 at 12:05 am

          we in the west are very highly propagandised as a population.

          • Populuxe1 14.1.1.1.1
            24 July 2014 at 12:26 am

            What’s you’re point of comparison? Russia? China?

            • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1.1.1
              24 July 2014 at 12:43 am

              Mine was an absolute, not a comparative statement.

              • Populuxe1 …
                24 July 2014 at 1:05 am

                My, don’t you have tickets on yourself. Does having your head wedged up your arse hurt when you sit down? Next you’ll be using the royal ‘we’ and demanding everything you say be accepted as true as an article of faith because you are speaking ex cathedra and therefore are infallible…

            • Murray Olsen 14.1.1.1.1.2
              24 July 2014 at 5:29 am

              We’re possibly more propagandised than the populations of either China or Russia. They learned to be very cynical whereas most of us haven’t yet.

              Cue abuse.

              • Populuxe1 …
                24 July 2014 at 9:05 am

                It would be cruel to abuse someone who is obviously stark raving mad.

                • ghostwhowalksnz …
                  24 July 2014 at 10:39 am

                  Still despairing are you ?

                  “Just a small point. Why the fuck would Ukraine have anti-aircraft missiles set up in the east when the rebels DON’T HAVE ANY FUCKING AIRCRAFT?!?!
                  Christ I despair.”

                  But Ukraine has accused russian planes of crossing the border to shoot down their planes, now thats a reason to have Ukraine SAMs near the Russian border.

                  “Kiev no longer minced its words: “Russia carried out another provocation… A military aircraft of the Russian Armed Forces launched a missile strike against an Su-25 aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces,”

                  These sort of cross boder flights are not uncommon, I think it was Turkey who shot down Syrian aircraft who crossed their border recently, and they arent even in conflict with Syria.

                  The Sky doesnt have signposts saying ‘Border here’

                  • Populuxe1 …
                    24 July 2014 at 12:22 pm

                    It would hardly be surprising given Russian bombers make regular forays into US, UK, EU and Scandinavian airspace, so I would suggest in your desperate attempt to canonise Putin, you might be being somewhat naif.

                    • ghostwhowalksnz …
                      24 July 2014 at 2:07 pm

                      No they dont. They stick to international airspace.

                      Just because one country claims an air defence zone over international waters doesnt mean another country cant fly their military through it.
                      As the US and Japan have done with the claimed Chinese ADZ.

                      Gee you get it wrong quiet a bit.

                    • Populuxe1 …
                      24 July 2014 at 4:32 pm

                      Oh well, that’s ok then. Pardon me while I polish Putin’s halo.
                      They should rename this the Double Standard in your honour.
                      Seriously, what is it about Puton that you’re in love with? The oppression of LGBT and ethnic minorities? The arresting of dissenters and critics? The assassinations and murders? The annexation of territory? The bombing Chechyens? What exactly? Why do you defend this terrible man as if acknowledging that he’s an evil bastard means that you are somehow supporting the US?

                    • Murray Olsen …
                      25 July 2014 at 12:43 am

                      For someone who’s stark raving mad, I am a lot more factual in my posts than you are. As has already been stated, Russian aircraft tend to stay in international airspace.

                      Do you really believe the crap you post? You seem to be a very bitter and confused person.

                    • Populuxe1 …
                      25 July 2014 at 11:55 am

                      Fuck off Olsen. Ooh Ooh look at me, I’m a nuclear capabale bomber touching your airspace, ooooooh, but you can’t touch me because I’m in international air space MILES FROM MY OWN FUCKING COUNTRY – but hey, that can’t possibly be considered provocative because some pompous cock in New Zealand really hates America etc etc.
                      YAWN

              • Colonial Viper …
                24 July 2014 at 3:05 pm

                We’re possibly more propagandised than the populations of either China or Russia. They learned to be very cynical whereas most of us haven’t yet.

                Now that is a good point. And a lot of the processes we are subjected to in the west is not just what we are told in the information stream – it is what is left out.

                • Populuxe1 …
                  24 July 2014 at 4:33 pm

                  Left out? Like big chunks of th einternet are left out of China?

                  • tinfoilhat …
                    24 July 2014 at 4:45 pm

                    Ha funny you mention that……. once when in Shanghai i was watching the tv in the hotel room and a dock on Tibet came on……. for about 30 seconds then was hastily replaced.

    • greywarbler 14.2
      23 July 2014 at 7:06 pm

      @TeWhareWhero 6.28
      +1

    • tinfoilhat 14.3
      23 July 2014 at 7:29 pm

      “What pisses me off is the speed with which the USA and its allies have leapt in to use this tragedy to score political points – and the undignified scramble to occupy the moral high ground and the shedding of crocodile tears from people who send missiles and drones that slaughter civilians makes me sick to my stomach.”

      Written without a hint of irony…

    • Wayne 14.4
      25 July 2014 at 8:05 am

      Yes, lets go for the conspiracy theories and ignore the obvious suspects.

  15. vto 15
    23 July 2014 at 10:21 pm

    Who the fuck cares?

    I care as much about this event as everyone cared when the Iranian passenger plane was shot down by the US in 1988.

    Nothing.

    All those dutch and aussies and couple of kiwis and poms and yanks can line up next to the iranians and palestinians and arabs and Syrians.

    It is bullshit the human manner in these situations..

    Try this on people you know….. when you next meet them, say “did you hear there has been another bom go off in London and a couple of hundred people have been killed?”… look for the instant horror in their eyes and then tell them …. “oh woops not London, I mean in Baghdad”… and watch the look in their eyes …

    so telling
    so telling
    the cold and chilling ugly of manwoman

    • Colonial Viper 15.1
      23 July 2014 at 10:29 pm

      Once difference this time is that the opposing sides of the tussle have nuclear tipped ICBMs.

  16. ianmac 16
    23 July 2014 at 11:15 pm

    One commentator is quite sure that this could topple Putin, though it is clear that the Russian public have very little idea of what has happened.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1
      24 July 2014 at 12:50 pm

      Gallup confirms that Putin is suffering from record high popularity in Russia, currently.

      • Populuxe1 16.1.1
        24 July 2014 at 1:32 pm

        Well yes. This is one of the main reasons he’s doing this in the first place. Nothing like an invasion or a war to boost your popularity.

        • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.1
          24 July 2014 at 3:07 pm

          that’s Putin’s brilliance. No invasion, no war. Even Crimea was done and dusted in 48 hours, with only a few random shots fired. Yet he still gets Russian street cred for being the strong man who understands traditional Russian values.

          • greywarbler 16.1.1.1.1
            24 July 2014 at 3:35 pm

            President Putin might have got lucky with his maneouvres to keep the bloodshed down. As someone quoted here yesterday a usa speaker might say that the Russians were being oversensitive about their borders getting too close to European armament sites.

            For a short moment away from sadness, badness and madness here is a vid. My favourite version of them singing Get Lucky (choose the 2nd one down with the Russian writing above. It has a good spirit to it and I think it was one of their last dress rehearsals.)

            http://www.wired.com/2014/02/russian-police-choir-get-lucky/
            It may seem an unlikely choice of song for Russia’s tough police force, but this video shows the Russian Folk Song and Dance Ensemble of the Interior Ministry singing Get Lucky by French duo Daft Punk. I think from Telegraph write up)

            Thinks – Do the USA Forces sing publicly and officially except for The Star Spangled Banner?
            Do Europeans sing Russian pop songs in public and well?
            edited

  17. ghostwhowalksnz 17
    24 July 2014 at 12:46 pm

    More ( believable) information has come from Russian sources
    http://app.info.aviationweek.com/e/er?s=1076&lid=7660&elq=f59f73438b7a4dfeabbb2c5509c2a71c

    “The MH17 Boeing 777 was in the engagement zone of at least three Buk-M1 (SA-11 Gadfly) batteries of the Ukrainian armed forces in the last stage of its flight, which ended with the deadly crash near Donetsk on July 17, according to intelligence data provided by the Russian defense ministry

    The Russian military adds that it detected another aircraft at 17:21 ascending toward the Malaysian airlines Boeing 777 at a distance of 3-5 km. It was monitored by two radar stations for four minutes and was not equipped with a secondary identification system. Kartapolov says it was a Ukrainian air force Sukhoi Su-25 ground attack aircraft. He stressed that the “Su-25 is capable of reaching the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short time” (the aircraft’s service ceiling is 7,000 meters). The aircraft’s weaponry includes the R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) air-to-air missile capable of striking targets at a distance up to 12 km, the military official says

    They DONT say it shot down MH17 though, just ‘unidentified’ plane was in area which they they say was UKraine Su25

    According to the map and traffic control data shown by the Russian military, Flight MH17 followed an international air route eastbound through Eastern Ukraine. Near Donetsk, the aircraft left the corridor to the north by 14 km from its left edge. Later the aircraft turned to the right, back to the air route, but failed to reach it. According to the ministry, radars detected the aircraft’s speed drop at 17:20 (Moscow time) and lost it at 17:23.
    http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/video/clips/more.htm?id=5086@morfVideoAudioFile

    • Colonial Viper 17.1
      24 July 2014 at 12:53 pm

      Worth bearing in mind that Putin’s own plane flew through that same sector about 40 minutes previous. Also for full performance, the BUK missile launcher needs to be linked in to its radar vehicle and its command and control vehicle.

      • Populuxe1 17.1.1
        24 July 2014 at 1:36 pm

        Because if I were Putin, I would of course not only deliberately be flying over a war zone, but indeed I would be flying on a passenger jet in range of the weapons of people who might want to kill me. An absurdity quickly followed by – of course Ukriane would fire on Putin, anything to trigger a massive retaliatory response from a nuclear power.

        You are stark flaming mad, you are. I can’t even begin to imagine why even th emost rabid anti-American would want to blindly defend Putin in the face of all this mounting evidence.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 17.1.1.1
          24 July 2014 at 2:02 pm

          Mounting evidence ?. You mean the assertions that Putin was ‘ controlling those who shot down the plane’ or assertions ‘some half trained separatists got their targeting wrong’.

          What the US is trying to do is put Putins fingerprints on it, without evidence. Because they wouldnt do anything like shoot down a plane and lie about it ! Much.

          • Populuxe1 17.1.1.1.1
            24 July 2014 at 4:35 pm

            Oh just stick your fingers in your ers and get back to humming you sycophantic little creep

            • teWhareWhero 17.1.1.1.1.1
              24 July 2014 at 9:25 pm

              Pop – why are you so furiously hostile towards anyone you disagree with? You seem to expend so much energy on being waspish – it must be exhausting.

              Given you have an IQ in 3 figures and you claim to know everything about everything, I assume you know that being in a state of persistent anger is very bad for you.

              Just saying.

              • Murray Olsen …
                25 July 2014 at 1:02 am

                “Given you have an IQ in 3 figures” I want a source for that.

              • Populuxe1 …
                25 July 2014 at 12:00 pm

                Because there is a limit to how much blind stupidity a human being can take without losing the plot. I am angry, very angry, at people who claim to deplore oppression, tyranny, abuse of human rights, and imperialism, and yet flock to defend exactly that when a vile scumlord like Putin does exactly that. I am positively incandescent.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 17.1.1.1.1.2
              25 July 2014 at 11:29 am

              Go show the ‘irrefutable’ proof the US and Ukraine talk about. The raw details not the spin.
              After all Putin was flying back from Brazil at the time must have been easy to read his orders to shoot it down from the intercepted radio comms.

    • Populuxe1 17.2
      24 July 2014 at 1:38 pm

      So what are the Russians implying it did? Blow kisses?

    • Psycho Milt 17.3
      24 July 2014 at 1:41 pm

      More ( believable) information has come from Russian sources

      Well, it’s at least less unbelievable than the earlier attempts involving a Ukrainian plot to assassinate Putin, but that’s about it. This stuff about a ‘false flag operation’ by the US and Ukraine to make Russia and the separatists look bad may go down a treat among people as ill-informed as the Russians, but it’s not going to play in the rest of the world. Unfortunately for Putin, Occam’s razor says this was most likely down to separatist dumbasses demonstrating why a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 17.3.1
        24 July 2014 at 2:16 pm

        Is there an official source for that claim or is it one of those ‘rumours’ that have emerged from Moscow or Kiev.

        The sources I have seen say Putin was coming back from Brazil ( a BRICS meeting and FIFA World Cup ceremonies) and the closest the planes might have got was over Warsaw but 3/4 hour apart. Doesnt look like that rumour has even a basic fact check

      • greywarbler 17.3.2
        24 July 2014 at 3:47 pm

        @ Psychmilt 1.41
        Why do you say that the Russians are ill-informed? Because they haven’t got the benefit of 5 Eyes? There are occasions in the history of every country when they don’t know what is going on. Don’t be too sure about anything that you hear from any source until its checked out thoroughly by impartial people.

        Your last sentence might be on the button, so to speak, but don’t make it also apply to you..

        • Populuxe1 17.3.2.1
          24 July 2014 at 4:38 pm

          No, it’s because all Russian news services are under orders to blame Ukraine for whatever.

          • Ennui 17.3.2.1.1
            25 July 2014 at 11:25 am

            Pop, you are most likely correct that Russian media are under “orders”. You might a;lso have a look for facts and evidence in any Western coverage of this incidence, (as in any Russian coverage for that matter). You wont find any. Zippo, zilch. Its all speculation. You are a parrot for Washington. Or more likely just a complete turkey.

            • Populuxe1 17.3.2.1.1.1
              25 July 2014 at 12:05 pm

              Which isn’t much better than being an apologist sycophant for Moscow, but hey, I’ll take what I can get.

              • Ennui …
                25 July 2014 at 1:45 pm

                Which bit of this does your dim brain not understand? You might a;lso have a look for facts and evidence in any Western coverage of this incidence, (as in any Russian coverage for that matter). How exactly does that make somebody an apologist sycophant for Moscow. Why not just step back and see how thick you appear?

                • Populuxe1 …
                  25 July 2014 at 8:34 pm

                  Well this should be interesting. Where is this magical non-partisan information going to come from?

                  • ghostwhowalksnz …
                    27 July 2014 at 10:09 am

                    I was like you and believed all the bullshit from the US etc – once.

                    The Iraq invasion had me all gung ho, it must have been true … they couldnt have lied through their teeth surely.

                    There were some respectable figures saying differently but they lost the ‘noise’ battle.

                    Now I look very very hard at claims, and the lack of verification is startling.
                    of course Sadaam Hussein wasnt someone you could support and Putin doesnt seem much better.

                    But look we arent saying crazy things about the Chinese government who are in terms of democracy 100 times worse than Putin, they are putting their ships around the South China Sea, but not a peep from us.

                    Why ? Surely we havent been bought and our outrage manufactured

                    If that can be live and let live surely its time to be a bit careful about Ukraine.

          • ghostwhowalksnz 17.3.2.1.2
            25 July 2014 at 1:16 pm

            Under orders ? Really ?

            Your Russian friends must be telling you that, or you just MADE IT UP right now.

            Last time I checked, The Herald prints pretty much everything the National party gives it, doesnt mean they believe it put hey there is space to fill between the ads.
            Recent gems: The huge donations given by a Chinese businessman. None of it was really true but hey who cares.

            Or this:
            “Claudette Hauiti has surrendered her parliamentary charge card after using it to pay for a Christmas trip to Australia.

            Part true it was change trip date for her mother

            Prime Minister John Key said in 2010 that the Government had “led the charge” on transparency of MPs’ spending.

            Thats good to get Keys side of things, it isnt true as Mps spending is still hidden like this one.

      • TeWhareWhero 17.3.3
        24 July 2014 at 4:24 pm

        “…people as ill-informed as the Russians, but it’s not going to play in the rest of the world” ….

        …which is so incredibly well informed and politically astute.

  18. Chooky 18
    25 July 2014 at 5:11 pm

    ‘US Intelligence on Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn’t Do It. “US Satellite Photos do not Support Obama’s Lies”

    By Dr. Paul Craig Roberts
    Global Research, July 24, 2014

    [About the author:
    Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury and Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal, has held numerous university appointments. He is a frequent contributor to Global Research. Dr. Roberts can be reached at http://paulcraigroberts.org]

    ” After days of placing hostile blame for the downing of the Malaysian airliner on Russia, the White House permitted US intelligence officials to tell reporters that there is no evidence of the Russian government’s involvement.

    Obviously, the US satellite photos do not support the Obama regime’s lies.

    If the White House had any evidence of Russian complicity, it would have released it to great fanfare days ago.

    We are fortunate that the analytical side of the CIA, in contrast with the black ops side, retains analysts with integrity even after the purge of the agency ordered by Dick Cheney. Incensed that the CIA did not immediately fall in line with all of the Bush regime’s war lies, Cheney had the agency purged. The black ops side of the agency is a different story. Many believe that it should be defunded and abolished as this part of the CIA operates in violation of statutory US law……

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-intelligence-on-malaysian-flight-mh17-russia-didnt-do-it-us-satellite-photos-do-not-support-obamas-lies/5393053

    • Populuxe1 18.1
      25 July 2014 at 8:35 pm

      I have this bridge I’d like to sell you.

      • Chooky 18.1.1
        25 July 2014 at 10:28 pm

        i need a bridge …what are the dimensions,is it designed by an engineer, what is it made of, and how much do yu want for it ?…and how did you come by it?…i didnt know you were into bridges Pop

        More from Paul Craig Roberts:

        http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/24/washington-escalating-orchestrated-ukrainian-crisis-war-paul-craig-roberts/

        ‘Washington Is Escalating the Orchestrated Ukrainian “Crisis” to War’

        Paul Craig Roberts

        “Despite the conclusion by US intelligence that there is no evidence of Russian involvement in the destruction of the Malaysian airliner and all lives onboard, Washington is escalating the crisis and shepherding it toward war.

        Twenty-two US senators have introduced into the 113th Congress, Second Session, a bill, S.2277, “To prevent further Russian aggression toward Ukraine and other sovereign states in Europe and Eurasia, and for other purposes.” ….

        https://beta.congress.gov/113/bills/s2277/BILLS-113s2277is.pdf The bill is before the Committee on Foreign Relations….

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