Save the Trees!

41 comments on “Save the Trees! ”

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1. Rogue Trooper 1

   22 February 2013 at 2:41 pm

   🙁
2. cricklewood 2

   22 February 2013 at 6:11 pm

   Working as a horticulturalist I can say that blanket protection orders leave a lot to be desired especially in there current form where they over reach somewhat and often lead to confusion or homeowners having to fork out loads of money.
   As an example I have a client who has to get a professional approved by the council (me) to trim his Totara’s.
   Sounds OK doesn’t it? However the Totara’s in question are actually a 3m high hedge that has been in existence and clipped by the resident for many years up until a council official saw him doing it and stopped to check his credentials. He was told it was protected as a native and he must have a qualified person do it!

   I would call this an opportunity to catalogue and assess Aucklands trees. Yes it is a big job but it would provide work for a large number of people and provide an excellent record of the Tree diversity and spread.

   Also I find in the most part homeowners like to keep there trees so I hold little fear of residents getting to carried away.

   Surely we can find some sort of workable middle ground rather than the present and proposed system nether of which are particularly good
   • Draco T Bastard 2.1

     22 February 2013 at 7:08 pm

     He was told it was protected as a native and he must have a qualified person do it!

     And what would it take the home-owner to become qualified?
     • Treetop 2.1.1

       22 February 2013 at 7:30 pm

       “And what would it take the home-owner to become qualified?”

       A fee which costs $250 per tree.
     • cricklewood 2.1.2

       23 February 2013 at 12:18 pm

       or a trade cert in either hort or arborculture
3. AmaKiwi 3

   22 February 2013 at 6:36 pm

   “It makes you wonder what they have against trees.”

   No, it reminds me what they’ve got against any form of democracy, such as local governance.

   All power to the emperor. Hail Caesar.
   • Draco T Bastard 3.1

     22 February 2013 at 7:10 pm

     +1

     National are following the libertarian view that people should be able to do whatever they like without having to consider the effect of their actions upon others. It is pure oppression and nothing else.
     • karol 3.1.1

       22 February 2013 at 7:17 pm

       Yes.

       Also, I have heard some people out here in west Auckland complaining about the local government restrictions on cutting down some of the trees on their land. It’s a “It’s my land I should be able to do what I like” attitude. But they are not considering how the trees have an impact on the whole area, not just the piece of land they leased from the ecosystem for as long as. (Ownership of material stuff is never for ever).

       But I think many more have an understanding of how it is one part of a wider landscape.
       • Greg Presland 3.1.1.1

         22 February 2013 at 8:07 pm

         Agreed Karol.

         It (personal land rights verses community expectations) has been a major issue out west for years. Some think that they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their land and what is on it. Others think that there is a collective obligation to look after all of us and the environment.

         If you allow individuals to unfettered rights to do whatever they want then some bad community results will occur. Local amenity will be lost, land slips will occur because owners cut trees essential for the stability of their neighbour’s land and the quality of the neighbourhood will be degraded.

         My home town of Titirangi is interesting. It is a decile 10 area. But everyone is passionate about their trees. We had a meeting in Titirangi last night with limited advertising with nearly 100 people there and a unanimous resolution was passed seeking blanket tree protection rules remaining.

         David Cunliffe was there and has a good summary of the meeting at http://blog.labour.org.nz/2013/02/22/saving-west-aucklands-trees-again-and-again-and-again/
         • TheContrarian 3.1.1.1.1

           22 February 2013 at 8:18 pm

           “If you allow individuals to unfettered rights to do whatever they want then some bad community results will occur.”

           This is where Libertarian thinking falls down. The idea that one should can do whatever they wish as long as it doesn’t impact on others freedoms/ability to do as they wish can’t work because the flow on effect means someone will always be affected.
           • Greg Presland 3.1.1.1.1.1

             22 February 2013 at 8:42 pm

             Agreed Contrarian and dare I say it but sometimes the interests of the community/collective means that individual “freedoms” need to be curtailed. But this a really vexed issue and one of the consequences to bear in mind is that the individual loss may be considerable and the individual gain of someone else not so big but when multiplied across a population may be considerable.
             • TheContrarian …

               22 February 2013 at 10:45 pm

               Indeed, it is a very vexing issue. I like the philosophical idea of libertarianism – indeed, the idea of individual choice about what one does to their bodies, which sex of consenting adults one chooses to be with and which associations one joins or not joins and what one does with their own self is very appealing but the practical side does not correspond to the philosophical ideal.

               It is a difficult one to weigh and certainly very difficult to legislate on.
     • TheContrarian 3.1.2

       22 February 2013 at 7:44 pm

       National are not libertarian dude
     • TheContrarian 3.1.3

       22 February 2013 at 7:57 pm

       “people should be able to do whatever they like without having to consider the effect of their actions upon other”

       That would be the complete opposite of libertarianism. Libertarianism advocates being able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn’t impact on the freedom of others to do the same.

       Obviously that is completely impractical in practice however the core of libertarian philosophy is everyone is innately free (and selfish/self-interested if you follow early thinkers like John Locke) to do as they wish as long as it does not effect or coerce others.
       • Draco T Bastard 3.1.3.1

         22 February 2013 at 8:38 pm

         That would be the complete opposite of libertarianism.

         You would think so but a lot of my conversations with libertarians covering this have the libertarians proclaiming that they should be able to do what they like and that others shouldn’t have a say (a lot of them really didn’t like democracy). They got upset when I pointed out that what they were suggesting was oppression of the majority by the minority.

         National are not libertarian dude

         Back in the 1970s they were conservatives with a slight libertarianism. These days I think they’re the opposite. They’ve always been authoritarian though even though they don’t realise it and will reject it. They’ll say that they fully believe in democracy – while taking away democracy (just for a short time of course, even the extension will only be short).
         • TheContrarian 3.1.3.1.1

           22 February 2013 at 10:40 pm

           “proclaiming that they should be able to do what they like and that others shouldn’t have a say”

           That is true to a point but only applies to their own private property in that others shouldn’t have a say about their personal decisions in their own private affairs as much as themselves don’t have a say in their neighbors affairs as long as either other accept the freedom to do what they will.

           So the theology of libertarianism is not, as you put it, ““people should be able to do whatever they like without having to consider the effect of their actions upon other””, It is the complete opposite. The practice is somewhat different.
         • TheContrarian 3.1.3.1.2

           22 February 2013 at 10:47 pm

           “They’ve always been authoritarian though even though they don’t realise it and will reject it.”

           Libertarianism is the antonym, philosophically, of authoritarianism.
           • AmaKiwi 3.1.3.1.2.1

             23 February 2013 at 3:30 am

             None of us created the things in civilization we most value. They were created by the collective effort and suffering a continuous human community over tens of thousands of years.

             Our responsibility is preserve, protect, and build upon the best from the past so future generations will live in a better world.

             Sorry, Libertarians. You cannot opt out of your personal responsibility to protect and improve the world for future generations. Past generations did for you. Like it or not, you are part of the whole.
4. muzza 4

   22 February 2013 at 7:24 pm

   What about those *clouds*, top left of the photo!!!
   • McFlock 4.1

     22 February 2013 at 7:33 pm

     oh wow, good call!
     To me, it looks a bit like a low earth orbit photo of australia and the south pacific as taken through a fish-eye lens. The fluffy spot at the bottom is tasmania.

     Pretty.
   • joe90 4.2

     22 February 2013 at 7:37 pm

     Golly!, cirrus
   • mickysavage 4.3

     22 February 2013 at 7:39 pm

     Out west we have a better class of clouds …
     • Anne 4.3.1

       22 February 2013 at 8:07 pm

       Out west you have lots more cloud…
       • mickysavage 4.3.1.1

         22 February 2013 at 8:14 pm

         🙂
   • TheContrarian 4.4

     22 February 2013 at 8:01 pm

     CHEMS!

     please Muzza, please don’t tell me you are a chemtrailer.
     • felixviper 4.4.1

       22 February 2013 at 8:58 pm

       lol please don’t tell that would surprise you 😉
       • TheContrarian 4.4.1.1

         22 February 2013 at 10:48 pm

         I haven’t engaged with Muzza enough to know.

         I though Travellev would be the chemtrailer in this group.
   • Treetop 4.5

     22 February 2013 at 8:16 pm

     The clouds are the start of a tornado which is going to rip the native out.
5. swan 5

   22 February 2013 at 8:06 pm

   Not sure why you think people are suddenly going to fell trees on steep slopes? It will quite possibly lead to more trees as people wont be afraid to plant them anymore.
   • felixviper 5.1

     22 February 2013 at 9:07 pm

     Guess you don’t know the area very well.
     • swan 5.1.1

       22 February 2013 at 9:22 pm

       I know plenty of people from the Waitakeres and have visited many times. None of them seem to be unusually stupid or have obsessions with chainsaws.

       Where I am from (not so far from the west) also has large numbers of native trees on residential properties that forest and bird tried to have all listed as notable. They failed. I cant say I have noticed a single native tree gone.
       • felixviper 5.1.1.1

         22 February 2013 at 11:35 pm

         I can’t say I’ve noticed you noticing a hell of a lot actually swan.
   • Greg Presland 5.2

     22 February 2013 at 9:22 pm

     It could do but we have laws against people assaulting other people even though ordinary reasonable people would never dream of assaulting others.

     Sometimes you need laws to just make sure that those on the edge do not behave bizarrely …
6. Afewknowthetruth 6

   22 February 2013 at 8:22 pm

   ‘what they have against trees’ is that trees hamper subdivision and the profiteering that can be achieved via subdivision and cramming ever more people into smaller spaces.
7. JK 7

   22 February 2013 at 9:34 pm

   Hullo Greg P – you make a valid point in your argument against the Govt’s changes to the RMA which will remove species of trees particularly special to certain places being protected, and you example the Kauri of Waitakere and the Pohutukawa (now greatly mutilated) along Takapuna Beach.

   This is a sad state of affairs, but what I find really interesting in that non of the posters to your plea for assistance to save our precious trees appear to be interested in making any sort of submission or objection about it to the govt or their local National or Act MP.

   So the posters are all words and no “do” ? ? ? I would have thought such thinking people would be more into “get active” than just sit and talk about things endlessly online! .
   • Draco T Bastard 7.1

     22 February 2013 at 9:42 pm

     Just because people haven’t said anything doesn’t mean that they’ve not done anything. Not all of us have a major ego that needs stroking all the time.
   • karol 7.2

     23 February 2013 at 7:25 am

     I have signed the petition (and got a nice thank-you email from Greg). I now live in Cunliffe’s electorate and he is already playing a strong role in the campaign. So I say thank-you to Cunliffe and Presland for giving this issue some visibility. If I know of any future meetings or actions in advance, I will go if it is possible.

     And I will tell other people I know about why keeping the trees is important.
     • Anne 7.2.1

       23 February 2013 at 4:47 pm

       Phil Twyford is doing his bit too
       • Anne 7.2.1.1

         23 February 2013 at 4:50 pm

         Oh dear, it didn’t work. Try again.

         http://blog.labour.org.nz/2013/01/18/the-future-if-we-dont-act/
8. Rogue Trooper 8

   23 February 2013 at 4:32 pm

   Libertarianism can be a sore point
   http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/libertine/
   (redeemed)
9. Greg Presland 9

   23 February 2013 at 7:36 pm

   Oh dear …

   The Government is giving up on trying to eradicate Kauri dieback. They will scale back efforts to try and do something about this terrible disease that is hitting the Kauri in the Waitakere Ranges hard.

   Kauri face possible extinction. To date no Kauri have been found to be immune.

   I understand the amount put into research was pretty minimal ($5 million) but this will no longer be there.

   http://www.3news.co.nz/Govt-gives-up-on-eradicating-kauri-disease/tabid/1216/articleID/287875/Default.aspx

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