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Scoop and Whaleoil, a tale of two websites

Written By: - Date published: 6:50 am, January 18th, 2014 - 134 comments
Categories: blogs, Media - Tags: ,

banks dotcom

Recent events have refocussed attention on new media and how political blogsites relate to conventional concepts of media.  And the response by two different websites highlights some very interesting issues.

Over at Scoop former chief reporter Alaistair Thompson has either resigned or taken a sabbatical so that he can become involved in Kim Dotcom’s Internet party.  The precise terms of his leave will need to be resolved.

Fellow Scooper Gordon Campbell has expressed sadness if it is a resignation and correctly describes Scoop as being “the flagship for alternative journalism in New Zealand for nearly 15 years”.

Campbell notes that Scoop has struggled financially.  This appears to be a recurring theme for media, especially alternative media, in New Zealand.  The market is just too small for most media to be profitable.

Campbell then says this:

For those of us connected with Scoop who watched the debacle unfold yesterday – and like everyone else, we did so by reading about it online – the details were alarming. It is painful to draw attention to them because Al’s entrepreneurial drive has been essential to sustaining Scoop as a forum of ideas ; but equally, it is impossible to condone a media outlet signing up the domain name of a political party, while reporting on political events. Al was an associate member of the press gallery. He also had an administrative role with Scoop that required him to generate new business for the site. Some hats that would be shared around in a traditional news organisation were worn by Al alone: such are the economic realities of Web publishing. These multiple roles always had the potential for conflicts of interest in both the political and business coverage.

For a news outlet however, a political client is not just another business client. Especially in an election year, any potential conflicts had to be identified and dealt with beforehand in a way that maintained the necessary distance. Instead, the boundaries in this case were actively blurred.

He concludes that the registration of the domain name for the Internet Party was indefensible and Thompson had no choice but to go.

Cameron Slater broke the news with his usual class.  He stated that Scoop was no longer independent and said that both Martyn Bradbury and Alastair Thompson have “many questions to answer about their blurring the lines between media and political activism in such and egregious and underhanded way.” (sp)

I laughed when I read this.  Slater’s blog is full of the most extreme right wing political views.  There are various allegations about how he received funds to promote candidates seeking selection for National Party Electorates and there is that defamation suit commenced by Matthew Blomfield against Slater where he has alleged Slater published blog posts at the behest of a third party for money.

Interestingly Slater is off to the High Court next month to try and establish that his blogsite is media for the purposes of protecting the confidentiality of his sources.  As a matter of legal interpretation I thought that his argument had merit and I was and am worried about the effect of the precedent.  But the irony is strong.  Slater has trampled on any concept of a blog site being politically neutral and it is rather rich for him to criticise Thompson and Bradbury for doing the same.

But this does raise interesting issues on the funding of blogs.  It is clear that Kiwiblog and Whaleoil are well funded and resourced.  Bradbury has been open about the funding for the Daily Blog.  There are various conspiracies about how the Standard is funded by the copious amounts of money that the Labour Party and the Trade Union movement have spare and I wish this was true … The Standard is IMHO the product of a group of dedicated amateurs and if payments are being made then I want to know what is happening to my share!  And this is the preferable model in many respects.

It is fascinating how Dotcom’s money is causing havoc everywhere it is spent.  He has previously caused havoc amongst the ranks of ACT and National through his donation to Banks and now has caused significant disruption to the proudly independent Scoop media organisation.

In an ideal world ordinary people would be paid sufficiently well and would have sufficient spare time that they could meet and organise and fundraise and discuss politics so that the offer of easy money was something that could be declined.  And independent media would be properly funded.

134 comments on “Scoop and Whaleoil, a tale of two websites”

  1. Steve Wrathall 1

    “And independent media would be properly funded….” by whom? The govt of the day? That would make them really keen to challenge the statist agenda of their paymasters. Yup.

  2. If Kiwiblog is well funded or resourced, that is news to me.

    It generates a small amount of advertising revenue, which works out at around 10% of a living wage based on the hours I spend on it.

    Kiwiblog receives no income from anyone except for advertisements that are clearly marked as such. Also I don’t receive any money from anyone to spend time on Kiwiblog. In fact I would make much much more money if I didn’t blog.

    • bad12 2.1

      As we are mostly not Parliamentarians here your statement can only be taken at it’s word with the provision of proof…

    • karol 2.2

      And your business that is your livelihood, while also enabling you to be able to afford to spend some unpaid time on Kiwiblog?

      I would also differentiate how the Whale O blog operates from that of Kiwiblog.

      • David Farrar 2.2.1

        I own and direct a market research company. This also takes up a lot of time. Luckily I also have some very good staff who do a lot for me. I am also on a couple of boards. This is all in my disclosure statement.

        • Jackal 2.2.1.1

          May I ask who some of your clients are then that utilize Curia to undertake polling, focus groups and receive communications advice etc? Don’t tell me you’re using that income to directly fund Kiwiblog, which is by all accounts a propaganda tool for the right wing? Wouldn’t that essentially mean those (I presume right wing clients) are resourcing Kiwiblog? Furthermore, how much funding does Curia receive because of the disinformation you publish on Kiwiblog?

          I recall Cameron Slater making similar denials about where his funding comes from just before proof emerged that his opinion can be purchased.

          • David Farrar 2.2.1.1.1

            The disclosure statement lists clients who have publicly said they use Curia. People pay Curia for polls, surveys and focus groups. No one has ever paid Curia or me to blog something (except as a disclosed paid ad) or to blog generally. I was publishing my views online eight years before I set up Curia.

            Having a public profile through blogging has in fact put many potential clients off Curia. I would make much much more money if I did not blog.

            • Jackal 2.2.1.1.1.1

              That is amusing considering the list of those who have openly used your services at Curia, including the National Party, Family First, John Banks, Exceltium (Matthew Hooton), just to name a few idiots, in many cases also receive a large amount of unwarranted promotion by you over at Kiwibog.

              You’re not an independent blogger David Farrar by any stretch of the imagination.

              • Paul

                I don’t mind Farrar not being independent. I just don’t appreciate it when he’s described as a blogger on the corporate media, without revealing his many links to the National Party.
                It is also an indictment of the corporate media that they simply repeat his stories and memes without dealing with the extreme right wing bias to his selection and colouring of news.

        • vto 2.2.1.2

          Political clients pay you money at Curia, which enables you to spend time blogging their politics at Kiwiblog.

          It aint nothing new – it is as old as the hills. That you appear to deny it merely highlights it further.

          Compromised through and through.

        • Awhina McGrath 2.2.1.3

          You are also so right of right, that you admitted signing the referendum multiple times to disrupt democratic process. That is my disclosure.

    • Jackal 2.3

      It seems strange that you’re funding your own blog Farrar. How exactly do you pay for your numerous trips overseas if you’re essentially working for free and full time on a right wing blog site?

    • come on..!..mr farrar..!

      ..we aren’t that stoopid..eh..?

      ..yr propaganda-organ is part of the (if unspoken) package-deal you offer national/the right..

      ..and that is what gets you all of that gummint-money..

      ..you work that trough like a pro…

      ..kiwiblog is unfunded..(yeah..right..)

      ..and i work part-time as the fucken tooth-fairy..eh..?

      ..phillip ure..

      • phillip ure 2.4.1

        and while you are here..mr farrar..

        ..perhaps you could tell us why kiwiblog is so often on the wrong side of history..

        ..eh..?

        ..from yr g.f.c.-denials…all the way through..eh..?

        ..and how about the vile campaigns of benificiary-bashing you have run/fostered/engendered at yr propaganda-organ..and that you have run since..oh..!..forever..!..?

        ..you are like new zealands’ goebbels..farrar..(and just fuck off..!..godwin..!..with yr stupid rule..)

        ..the parallels are potent..

        ..you have fostered (very successful) campaigns of hatred/stigmatising against the weakest/poorest/sickest new zealanders..

        .(who can forget ‘tania heke’..eh..?..that fake-(maori of course..eh..?)..benificiary-‘bludger’ you ‘featured on yr blog..

        ..with those made up tales of ‘tania’ and her other bludging benificary-mates..

        ..sitting on the deck..drinking..waiting for the takeaway pizzas to arrive..and laughing at their ‘mug’ neighbours..as they drove off to work..

        ..and that was all lies/made-up..wasn’t it farrar..?

        ..now you tell me/us how that is any different from the anti-semitic-poison goebbels flooded germany with..eh..?

        ..with the same intention..to create a scapegoat..

        ..then there is yr boast of how you stood at the shoulder of richardson going ‘cut more..!..cut more..!)..as she wrote her mother-of-all-budgets..eh..?..

        ..there is nobody in new zealands’ history who has been more of a monger of hatred than you..farrar..

        ..go on..!..name one..!..

        ..then there are all the lies you have peddled for that other black-propagandist..mcvicar..

        ..i could go on and on..

        phillip ure..

        • phillip ure 2.4.1.1

          edit:..to fourth line from bottom..

          ..should read ‘more successful as a monger of hatred’..etc..

          ..of course there are individuals who are not as ‘subtle’ in their words as you are/attempt..

          ..they let it all hang out..

          ..and funny story..!

          ..most of those fucked-individuals cluster around yr blacl-propaganda-organ..eh..?

          ..do you ever wonder why that is..?

          ..phillip ure..

      • Will@Welly 2.4.2

        Stop it phillip, the laughter is hurting my rib cage.

    • Te Reo Putake 2.5

      Hi, David. Is it true that the National Party threatened to kill Curia if you didn’t toe the line on the Chorus bailout? If so, how independent do you think the National Party thinks you are?

      • David Farrar 2.5.1

        No it isn’t true.

        And the fact Kiwiblog joined a coalition that actively opposed a Government proposal (and successful defeated it) speaks for itself in terms of independence. Also note that there was no financial advantage to me in joining the coalition (unlike some of the ISPs). I joined purely because I thought what the Government was proposing to do was wrong.

        • Te Reo Putake 2.5.1.1

          So, no approach at all? No emails, no calls, no quiet word in your ear that it might be better for you to back off? Seems most unlike the bullying Government we’ve come to know and loathe. I only ask because I’m told you’ve been telling people that this actually happened. I’m happy to take your word for it, but others may be more cynical.

          • Rhinocrates 2.5.1.1.1

            Methinks the Penguin doth protest too much.

            He’s like Hoots – you can tell he’s lying because his lips move. Kiwibog is a troll farm, fostering racist filth and the Penguin feeds them deliberately. He’s a nasty, mercenary, lying stooge.

            There are a lot of stories floating about Wellington telling of his treatment of prostitutes as well…. I don’t know if they’re true, so I won’t repeat them.

            This I do know is true: he once allowed – some would say incited – his trolls in his sewer to stalk and threaten the young children of a friend of mine who dared to criticise him. She later attempted suicide.

            No one should be under any illusions about what a thug and liar the evil little bastard is.

            He’s not “streets ahead” of Whalecum – he’s just the same kind of filth but greasier.

            • Murray Olsen 2.5.1.1.1.1

              The well dressed, outwardly respectable ones are often dirtier than the black tshirt wearers. Your comment does not surprise me at all, Rhino.

            • Scott Chris 2.5.1.1.1.2

              Wow, and what does this post say about its poster. You’ll be calling him a pedo next. Classy.

              • Pascal's bookie

                I’ve not heard anyone accuse him of that, but he does think it’s funny to dress like one for parties.

            • Onlooker 2.5.1.1.1.3

              If, as you say, this man is an unpleasant model of his species – how come he has so many highly respectable and educated friends surrounding and supporting him? If he was is as bad as you make out his peer group would surely have ostracised him.

              But then, all you have is stories from your peers, no facts, no proof. Tell a lielo big enough etc etc. etc. – used by so many enemies to try and bring a good man down. Have seen it all before!

              Would you like to inform us exactly who the children that David asked his followers to pick on and threaten and the name of the mother that later attempted suicide (which could have been related to an entirely different incident) altho’ you place it in the same sentence to try and make it seem it was because of what happened to her children. Tried and true tactics of the left for decades.We know those tactics too.

              So, out with the truth seeing as the general public was not made aware of it at the time – whose children did a certain NZ citizen have stalked and threatened? And would this action not have brought police intervention if it was fact?

              [lprent: The difficulty is that if whoever you’re replying to did provide date and time facts, then in all likelihood I or another moderator would have to squelch it as being likely to be a defamatory. A “fact” that we couldn’t check ourselves before publication putting the site at risk. Similarly if he mentioned the name of the woman then I’d probably have to squelch it as violating their privacy – they and their children are not public figures.

              However Rhino stuck to interpretation, rumour and opinion. The only real way for Rhino to put those allegations on this site in more than general terms is to provide links. In the case of the woman and her kids I’d probably then remove the link for the same reasons above.

              So your demand is unreasonable. Don’t persist in making it.

              On the other hand, like this post, it isn’t hard to find some dubious dog whistling that DPF has done over the years. For instance we all learnt from him the extent to which you could denigrate politicians not on what they do, but on insinuating what they could have been doing. Of course over the years none but Cameron went further than him in being a misogynist arsehole dogwhistling for the most moronic wankers in society. ]

            • thecard 2.5.1.1.1.4

              Wow Rhinocrates have you got anymore dirt on Farrar ?

              In between the poor treatment of prostitutes and stalking and threatening kids it sounds ;like you should be making a complaint to the local cop shop or at least leak some of the information to the media on the quiet so they can take him down.

  3. bad12 3

    Right on the money with your comments about Blubber Boy and the blog ‘Wail Oil’ but after that we definitely have diverse opinions over ‘Scoops’ Thompson,

    My question to anyone slating Thompson is firstly please show me which articles supporting the Internet Party did Thompson either author or cause to be published by Scoop in the period when He is alleged to have been compromised,(thus far wherever i have put that question the answer has been a resounding silence),

    What i refuse to contemplate for more than a mere second is that we on the left will ever dance to any tune blown by ‘Wail Oil’s’ King of filth Blubber Boy, and with this particular publication of this leak He offers up a fracturing of what admittedly is at this point a minor flake in the wall of leftist solidarity and many of us happily leap to the floor and dance like crazy???,

    (Dont take the above as a criticism MS we should be discussing Thompson’s actions and motives in minute detail),

    My point being with reference to dancing to the King of Filth’s tune is that i firmly believe that at the point where whatever His future position and/or work/employment/candidacy was confirmed with an actual registered Internet Party Thompson would have Himself made a full public disclosure and given his resignation publicly from His position(s) with Scoop,

    So if not for ‘the leak’ and it’s subsequent publication what heinous wrong has Thompson really committed, and i would ask anyone to consider that against a background where this proposed Internet Party had as yet no officials, was not registered, and had as yet not been ‘officially launched’, even at this point the Internet Party remains simply a ‘proposal’,

    Next i have to ask are we not being just a little ‘precious’ in demanding from the likes of Thompson what appears to be a straight-jacket of correctness,

    When we consider the above, have a wee think about the largest newspaper in the country when it comes to either ‘opinion’ or political reporting, i would suggest that the Herald prints 90% in favor of the National Party, other than the wing-nuts, is there any major disagreement from any here at the Standard that such a proposition is untrue,

    Most of us, in my opinion would even tho there is no concrete evidence of this,(except for what is actually printed) have a firm belief that the Herald has an editorial policy that its opinion and political writers will favor the National Party,

    When i see printed along with Every political and opinion piece produced by that newspaper a disclaimer from the editor that their policy is to favor the National Party, then and only then will i for one dance upon the floor demanding ‘higher standards’ from any journalist managing to be published while writing in favor of ‘the left’…

    • Te Reo Putake 3.1

      “My question to anyone slating Thompson is firstly please show me which articles supporting the Internet Party did Thompson either author or cause to be published by Scoop in the period when He is alleged to have been compromised,(thus far wherever i have put that question the answer has been a resounding silence),”

      The silence is because your question makes no sense. If you read the post you’ll find a quote from Gordon Campbell. He explains the problem precisely.

      • bad12 3.1.1

        TRP,if my question makes no sense to you, gee sorry, most people can see exactly what the question asks, perhaps you are just to dense to make sense of it…

  4. Tracey 4

    Well written mickey. Had the same thoughts as you.

    National and act pay well enough that it seems their secrets are harder to crack.

    Is cactus kate a member of act party?

  5. karol 5

    micky: It is fascinating how Dotcom’s money is causing havoc everywhere it is spent. He has previously caused havoc amongst the ranks of ACT and National through his donation to Banks and now has caused significant disruption to the proudly independent Scoop media organisation.

    I also have some concerns about the way Dotcom uses money to buy influence and power.

    Independant media can be funded well, by public means, if there are safeguards against political or financial interference built into it’s construction and operating procedures.

    • Jan Rivers 5.1

      The Government had a perfect opportunity, but failed to legislate last year, to create a single media standards regime for all media – web, print, radio and television to overcome the very issue of identifying which publishing should be bound by formal standards. The Law Commission Report ‘The news media meets ‘new media’ (http://r128.publications.lawcom.govt.nz/Summary/Key+conclusions) was published in March 2013 and its recommendations included recognising media consolidation and convergence and the lowered barriers to web-based publishing and specifically to:

      – recognise and protect the special status of the news media, regardless of their size or commercial status, are able to access the legal privileges and exemptions available to these publishers;
      – ensure that those entities accessing the news media’s special legal status are held accountable for exercising their power ethically and responsibly;
      – provide citizens with an effective and meaningful means of redress when those standards are breached
      – signal to the public which publishers they can rely on as sources of news and information.”

      The Government takes time to respond to Law Commission reports and in September the relevant Ministers reported that they had bit.ly/1jd2q70 “decided not to act” saying that in NZ there had been no crisis of confidence in the media (as there had in the UK with the Leveson enquiry).

      When a government ignores the recommendations of the neutral and disinterested body empowered to advise on keeping legislation relevant (on our behalf ) as well as the submissions of dozens of organisations and individuals to.http://bit.ly/1cECZph it is a small but significant dent in our democratic resilience and the quality of our governance.

  6. Yoza 6

    Campbell’s treatment of Alastair Thompson’s decision to join the Dotcom snowball serves to illustrate the stridently independent narrative Scoop has created. Next to Gordon Campbell people like Cameron Slater are highlighted as gibbering fools.

    I do not fear the Dotcom political agenda as those involving themselves with him in his foray into the New Zealand political landscape would necessarily be obliged to jump ship immediately if their reputations were threatened by any lurch toward the Randian lunacy on which the ACT party was founded.

    This whole Dotcom saga has done an excellent job of presenting the gulf between representative democracy and participatory democracy to the marginalised young. I’m not saying Dotcom is a champion of the latter (I don’t follow him closely enough to have the slightest inkling of what are his political views), but the way representative democracy is presented in contrast to the manner in which it is practiced is utterly corrupt. We are not going to vote ourselves to a civilised society, as Emma Goldman famously said, “If voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal.” – the parliamentary system we have is specifically designed to prevent popular participation in the decision making process.
    However, the better people understand the democratic deficit inherent in our system of representation the sooner we will move to a genuinely democratic form of social organisation. If KDC can add to this understanding all the better.

    • Chooky 6.1

      +1 Yoza….interesting ….Emma Goldman being the famous anarchist theorist … from an American I was given her hardback book ‘Anarchism and other Theories’….I felt very privileged because it was his Bible and she is very trenchant.

      I could never make my mind up about Anarchism….imo it seems either incredibly astute in its critique of democracy under capitalism or incredibly naive about how it can go about achieving its idealistic ends without using ‘democracy’ and voting ….I swing from one view to the other…In the end I value the vote because it was so hard for women and other oppressed minorities to win.

      I like your analysis…I also dont fear Dotcom and at this stage value his pull in getting youth to think about voting and participating in the ‘democratic’ process….at least they will be participating in their own political education…..instead of being alienated, cynical or apathetic bystanders

      … nor am I critical of Bradbury and Thompson….they should be trusted on their own background histories to make a good call.

    • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 6.2

      the stridently independent narrative Scoop has created…

      Note: the registrant of the Internet Party’s domain names is not Alastair Thompson – it’s Scoop Media Limited.

      From the WHOIS:

      registrant_contact_name: Scoop Media Limited
      registrant_contact_address1: 29 Brandon Street
      registrant_contact_city: Wellington

  7. irascible 7

    Interesting to note , from the links in this article, that along with Lusk & Slater a certain Jordan Williams, of the “Taxpayers’ Union”, is involved in the organisation of Collins faction. Certainly demonstrates the bias and connections of this “Voice of the Little People” group providing ammunition for the National-Act prejudice feeders.

  8. philj 8

    This relates to the huge vacuum that is our lack of quality Public Broadcasting. Radio New Zealand is not as independent as it was, TVNZ is an expensive sick joke. I take my hat off to Al Thompson and even Bomber for their energy and commitment. We need both qualities in our country.

  9. Colonial Viper 9

    To DPF: thanks for dropping by and making your comments on The Standard.

    • tinfoilhat 9.1

      You know what I agree, I don’t agree with his politics but good on him for fronting and giving a simple response to some of the baiting.

      • newsense 9.1.1

        +1

        he’s occasionally partisan and pushes a line, but mostly a well respected member of the blogosphere, even if the way he allows some of the comments to run isn’t. Streets ahead of Slater

        • idlegus 9.1.1.1

          on farrars facebook page he put up a link to the recent murders in dunedin (dad & his 2 children), with a joke “Just out of interest, does anyone know where the Bain honeymoon was? :smile: “.

          i now i know, us lefties just can’t take a joke, but fuck that. i disagree that he’s ‘streets ahead’ of whale oil.

    • @ viper..

      ..ew..!

      ..just..ew..!

      ..and..why..?

      ..(and you can unpucker yr lips now..eh..?..he’s gone..)

      phillip ure..

      • QoT 9.2.1

        Seriously, a dude just says “hey thanks for dropping by” and in your head that translates to some massive, obsequious suck-up? You need more iron in your diet, mate.

        • Jackal 9.2.1.1

          Thanks for gracing us with your presence and taking the time to talk to us mere mortals is all a bit suck-up don’t you think QoT? Not that I’m saying Farrar shouldn’t, but acting like he’s doing us a favour by continuing to perpetuate his lies on The Standard is pretty weird!

          • Tim 9.2.1.1.1

            + fucking 1!
            You nail it! I just wish more people understood exactly what it is that “collective Left” are dealing with.
            For them – it comes naturally – for the “collective Left” we keep trying to make allowances for the likes of Farrar and his gun toting macho mates, because we’re often such utterly ‘nice’ people.
            Fuk ‘em!
            Sorry if that offends – but it needs to be said!
            And that probably sums up WHY KDC might end up having a certain appeal – which IF he does, we’ll all be standing around saying Quel Surpris /Quelle Surprise – or whatever the fuck it is.

            Actually, I have this idea that KDC could be a total prick …. but more likely he’s simply ‘irrideemably liberal’, and with a heart – not too unlike an Idiot/Savant – ya never know ( ….. eh? ) Could be why the Natzis are so bloody worried.

            • Tim 9.2.1.1.1.1

              Oh …. btw …. do you think we should cobble together a focus group to mull over the various possibilities?

          • QoT 9.2.1.1.2

            What CV actually said:

            To DPF: thanks for dropping by and making your comments on The Standard

            What Jackal says CV said:

            Thanks for gracing us with your presence and taking the time to talk to us mere mortals

            Yep, those are definitely identical statements. :roll:

            • phillip ure 9.2.1.1.2.1

              @ qot..

              ..yep..they are pretty much..the same

              ..different words..but same meanings/readings..

              ..phillip ure..

            • Jackal 9.2.1.1.2.2

              QoT

              Yep, those are definitely identical statements.

              If I were to quote CV directly QoT I would have used quotation marks like those exhibited above for your comment. Instead I’ve used italics to indicate a sarcastic parody of CV sucking up to David Farrar. Sorry if you failed to comprehend the subtle difference there between italics and quotation marks…perhaps some more iron in your diet is warranted?

              • QoT

                Dude, here’s the problem: I don’t particularly *like* Colonial Viper, we disagree on a huge amount, and for all that personal bias I still cannot see this terrible, total-sell-out, sucking up that you and phillip are seeing.

                David Farrar is a fucking vile human being himself, but you know what? By actually taking part in the comments here he’s shown himself to be a hell of a lot more willing to engage and answer challenges made to him than, say, Josie Pagani.

                • Colonial Viper

                  DPF ranking ahead of Josie Pagani. The juxtaposition is almost too much to bear.

                • Jackal

                  QoT

                  I still cannot see this terrible, total-sell-out, sucking up that you and phillip are seeing.

                  I don’t see CV thanking anybody else for commenting here QoT. Why is he/she giving Farrar special treatment if not to suck-up so to speak?

                  By actually taking part in the comments here…

                  Why on earth is there any kudos at all for somebody who has only commented here to try and perpetuate his falsehoods?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Get over it mate. Politeness and appreciation are not crimes against the lefty bible.

                    • Jackal

                      I’m not reading from a lefty bible, just agreeing with phillip ure that you were being a suck-up CV. Claiming that you were simply being appreciative and polite while nobody else receives such courtesies seems a bit disingenuous!

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So you feel left out. Like I said. Get over it.

                    • Jackal

                      There’s nothing for me to get over and you’re not my mate CV. I don’t require you to kiss my arse to understand that you puckering up for a right wing blogger speaks volumes.

                    • mickysavage

                      Enough …

                      There is nothing wrong with civility being shown. Who knows you may be able to enter into a dialogue from which some benefit may occur.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Meh.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Sorry MS that “meh” was meant for J. Can’t edit for some reason.

                    • Jackal

                      Farrar doesn’t deserve civility while he’s blatantly lying about being an “independent” blogger mickysavage, which has been my point all along.

                      When there’s an end to the disinformation, character assassinations, verbal diarrhea etc from the right wing and their propagandist bloggers, then the left should show them civility.

                    • jcuknz

                      I’m with you CV on this matter … the tone of most of this thread is the typical muckiness one unfortunately finds on blogs … it seems that blogs un-leash the worst phantasies of people.

                    • jcuknz

                      As I found over at Kiwiblog in my discussion with the entrenched rightwing over the ferry building it doesn’t matter what your arguments are you will not calm their zealousness except they were a bit more polite than I find in this thread with the foolish and ridiculous statements proliferating.

                      So it was good that you were gracious CV but in this climate unfortunately rather un-wise?

                      I guess we should offer a vote of thanks to both DPF and Lprent[ and associates ] for providing the outlets for the viciousness inherent in most of us when we do not control ourselves.

                      I wonder if it is not further proof of the diversiveness of the Left which causes so much splitting and loss of strength in the polls. We are all committed rather than pragmatic.

                    • tricledrown

                      i think CV was being Ironic as none absolutely no one on KB shows any civility to the left.
                      just outright bullies.
                      CV i just found out recently when candidate for Clutha Southland was threatened with violence on many occasions by National party supporters.
                      He kept his cool and carried the lefts message into Farrer whaleoil exclusive bretheren country.
                      CV should get a LBA lefty bravery award.

                  • QoT

                    Why is he/she giving Farrar special treatment if not to suck-up so to speak?

                    For a start, CV obviously uses male pronouns and you’ve been around long enough to know it.

                    And Farrar is not a regular commenter here. He’s also someone who doesn’t “need” to comment here as he has his own well-visited website if he really wanted to respond (again, compare with Josie Pagani.)

                    I’m not endorsing CV’s thanks, because frankly DPF is a shitty person who allows awful crap to be published in comments on his site yet tries to project this “just a nice guy, shucks” facade. But I simply have to register my :roll: at you and phillip turning a very simple, very straightforward comment from CV into some epic ideological betrayal.

                    • Jackal

                      I note that your comment doesn’t specifically answer the question you’ve quoted in italics QoT…why exactly has CV singled out David Farrar to thank for commenting?

                      Btw, thanks for saying our comments are epic, but it hasn’t been phillip ure or I who’ve carried on this debate. It has been yourself and to some extent CV. You both obviously suffer from a bad case of last word syndrome.

                      Resorting to criticizing the way we write and pathetically saying we are wrong without any real argument QoT is a big fail! So far I’ve not seen any comprehensible debate from you that would change my initial understanding that CV was being a big suck up.

              • @ jackal..;

                shouldn’t that be more ‘irony’ in the diet..?

                phillip ure..

        • phillip ure 9.2.1.2

          @ qot..

          ..it’s who he’s saying it to..

          ..and as he is an aspiring mp/beltway-insider..

          ..it is horrifying symptomatic of how farrar also so successfully ‘played’ labour during the clark years..

          ..he successfully straddled the ideological-trough/worked both sides of the room..

          ..and clark labourites seemed to be scared of him..

          ..vipers’ ‘yoo-hoo!..over here..!’…is so much more than just that..(and you know that..)

          ..and is it the phillip ure mote in yr eye..

          ..that leaves you leaping to ‘hear!..hear!’…this lifting of the skirt/winking @ farrar by viper..?

          ..eh..?

          ..quite the unedifying sight..eh..?

          ..especially for/from one who purports such as yrslf..

          ..eh..?

          phillip ure..

          • QoT 9.2.1.2.1

            I have literally no idea what the fuck you just said, phillip.

            • phillip ure 9.2.1.2.1.1

              can i suggest a dictionary..?

              ..is there anyone who could explain it to you..?

              phillip ure..

              • QoT

                Using full sentences and clearly explaining your ideas might help.

                • @ qot:..

                  that for me is the jumping the shark moment in any debate..

                  ..when the opposition only has sentence-structure (or lack of it.)…to come back at me with..

                  ..that’s when i know the debate is over/done and dusted..

                  ..and that i have won it..

                  ..phillip ure..

                  • McFlock

                    did you just claim pwnage?

                  • QoT

                    Yes, phillip. Once again you have “won”, because your personal definition of “winning” is clearly “rambled on meaninglessly until everyone gets frustrated and leaves/starts deleting my comments for being wildly offtopic”, at which point you claim that this vindicates whatever point it was you were trying to make.

          • xavier 9.2.1.2.2

            +1 exactly. they are cynical sycophants who identify more with mr farrar than with most labour members. labour, like many institutions world wide, projecting an illusion of change but it’s not real.

            • Colonial Viper 9.2.1.2.2.1

              Oh are you speaking to me? Calling me a “cynical sycophant” after I said thanks to DPF for commenting.

              Did I offend one of the commandments of the lefty bible by using politeness? Get over it mate.

              • @ c.v..

                ..can i ask who else you have verbalised yr ‘appreciation’ here to..?

                ..for them commenting..?

                ..and what exactly is it you ‘appreciate’ in/about farrar..?

                ..phillip ure..

                • Colonial Viper

                  Oh god, authoritarian lefties on their favourite past time. Hunting for fifth column traitors. Got your NKVD membership badge handy?

                  • QoT

                    Shit, I guess Martyn Bradbury was right about something. Sign of the Apocalypse?

                  • sorry..viper..

                    ..you expressed yr ‘appreciation’ of farrar..

                    ..and as you are an aspiring labour party mp..

                    ..it is totally disingenuous of you to cry ‘authoritarian lefties'(?)..

                    ..when asked just what it is you appreciate about that master-peddler of hate/lies..

                    ..so much so..you felt driven to give him a shout-out..(!)..

                    ..for those of us trying to end/undo the neo-lib consensus-waltz both lab/nat have had for the last 30 yrs..

                    ..yr insider wink is bordering on intolerable..

                    ..and just sets off alarm-bells as to you being any real agent of change..

                    ..you are showing yrslf up as more a ‘please please..can i come in..?..i’ll be a good boy..i promise..!’

                    ..and that you so easily resort to cold-war commie-hunting rhetoric..

                    ..(‘..NKVD membership badge’..(!?)..

                    ..only confirms that impression..

                    ..eh..?

                    ..of you as a neo-lib warrior..

                    ..in progressive drag..

                    ..(and did you ever answer that question i asked you..about yr apparant oil-company/drilling ‘pimping’..?

                    ..some clarification on that wd be appreciated..

                    ..eh..?..)

                    phillip ure..

              • xavier

                It was a bit overweening to chastise you for thanking the guy. But Farrar trades in disingenuous sophistry (labour plans to nationalise the power industry etc). If I was an aspiring labour mp that would just really irk me, but you’re just being your courteous self.

          • JK 9.2.1.2.3

            ” ..it is horrifying symptomatic of how farrar also so successfully ‘played’ labour during the clark years..

            ” ..he successfully straddled the ideological-trough/worked both sides of the room..

            ” ..and clark labourites seemed to be scared of him.. ”

            Philip – can you elaborate on the above aspect of your post, please

  10. captain hook 10

    so tell me one more time just so I will understand.
    who funds wail boil?

  11. Pascal's bookie 11

    I’ll just leave this here, if anyone can find any sort of disclosure statement in it, let me know:

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/01/selection-season-upon-us/#more-123334

  12. Good on Thompson for a) joining Dotcom and 2) not sacrificing the brave record of Scoop by stepping down.
    re 1) not because Dotcom is our saviour but because he stands for personal freedom as a condition of making money. (More fool him but never mind he will discover that capitalism is its own worst enemy)
    His is a naively innocent capitalism of the naked entrepreneur that deserves to be put to the test so that it can be scrapped as a delusion, not by the cronies but by us.
    re 2) Scoop is not ‘independent’. It has to survive financially which means it cannot be ‘independent’ of making compromises with capitalism. True independence would mean identifying openly as representing the interests of anti-capitalism.
    That is where (1) leads, objectively, (independently of the will of Dotcom) and by choosing (1) Thompson can create a Mega Scoop (2) funded by an objectively anti-capitalist.

  13. captain hook 13

    I beg to differ. dotcom made his money stealing off the legitimate artists who created the music in the first place and then claiming that he had a right to do what he liked. Blubberguts wail boil is a different ketttle of fish altogether. He is a psychopath busy accusing others of the things he wants to do himself in the vain hope that he will deflect suspicion off his own private proclivities.

    • Colonial Viper 13.1

      Dotcom provided a file storage and retrieval service. That is all. He didn’t steal anything. Before he was shut down he had been in touch with the FBI and followed their instructions re: copyright material.

      And that’s why the Government/US case has gone as far as it has: nowhere.

  14. blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 14

    “Recent events have refocussed attention on new media and how political blogsites relate to conventional concepts of media.”

    Hang about?

    Didn’t a court of law recently rule a well-known (& hated) political blog site as ‘not a news medium within section s68 (sub-section 5) of the Evidence Act.’

    Was this in reference to blogsites in general?
    Or Whaleoil’s specific style?

    If it was in reference to blogsites in general, then it follows that normal ‘media’ rules for blogsites don’t apply. Can’t have it both ways.

    It stands to reason that a political blogsite will contain writers who are actively involved in politics, yet, yes, I think it far preferable that bloggers disclose their active connections to official political parties.

    It has beem very clear that Bradbury was active in left-wing politics from the get-go – can the same be said for Farrar, Slater or even Hooton? – two of which, who are introduced on television as ‘political commentators’ – a very ‘neutral and independent’ label for people who are not that.

    As for Scoop – what is this? It is perfectly o.k for right-wing party views to actively influence our printed media sources (‘The Herald’, ‘The Listener’), yet a person who sets up Scoop can’t be actively involved in a political party – despite quite likely* not having written anything slanted in favour of that party?

    * I am keen to be provided links to any article that appears to compromise the independent nature of Thompson’s writings –

    It appears there is one rule for those holding right-wing views and another for those holding left-wing views in this country at present.

    • mickysavage 14.1

      Hi BL

      The decision suggests that no blogsites are media unless they are controlled by a traditional media organisation. LPrent thought this was fine and I have reservations because it seemed to me to be against the clear words in the legislation but at another level I do not have a problem with it.

      I was trying to contast the responses by Scoop and Slater. Gordon Campbell at Scoop set out very effectively why Thompson’s situation became intolerable and Slater agrees with this but does not have the decency to acknowledge that this should also apply to his own site, that is he engages in partisan political attacks and is not media because of that.

      • lprent 14.1.1

        Disagreement is normal.

        What I specifically said was that I couldn’t see that blog sites needed the protections and responsibilities of traditional media.

        Those protections are there for a specific purpose, because those media spend much of their effort finding and researching news stories and their reporters needed protection from malicious persecution.

        But there is a tradeoff. The legal system also holds them to a higher level of responsibility. They have to make sure that their news is as accurate as they can make it. They also are expected to provide a degree of balance.

        My argument is that blogs are largely commenting on the news. They aren’t resourced to determine the accuracy of everything that they say. That is why they largely tend to post opinion rather than news.

        The Whaleoil site is a good case in point. Most of the material that is posted there definitely isn’t news. It is straight opinion. Moreover it usually ignores *any* facts that cut into whatever thesis that it is making. With a lot of the posts on the site the material is simply made up or speculative. Where a “opportunity” is provided for response – it is treated by Cameron Slater and his minions to merely be a forum for ritual humiliation. The Blomfield case clearly showed that.

        When WhaleOil is doing “news” stories like the Len Brown one. It did exactly the same thing. Where exactly did Cameron show any attempt to provide any balance in the initial and all subsequent coverage on the site? Quite simply that was all provided by traditional media. Similarly where was the fact checking done for some of the claims? etc etc.

        Sure Whaleoil were given the story by members of the National’s mayoral campaign team, but I don’t think that their subsequent actions showed any of the care that professional journalists are meant to have. And that was an actual news story that he broke – and then gave to the traditional media to do the job correctly..

        Unless new media is resourced to provide the type of care that journalists are meant to bring to their task and then provide it, I don’t think that they require nor should have the protections accorded to those who do.

        Now this isn’t just blogs. The same applies to other things. Radio talk shows for instance.

        • lprent 14.1.1.1

          I should have added that in my view:-

          1. Being a journalist often gets in the way of clearly expressing an opinion.
          2. Blogs are about expressing opinions by citizens who aren’t journalists.
          3. Their role is more important in many ways than that of journalists.
          4. The roles between blogger and journalist are complementary.

  15. Port Hills Pete 15

    Meanwhile we are talking about only two websites because the Internet Party does not have one!!

  16. enoch powell 16

    Whale oil has a tremendous following more than all the left blogs put together in number of visits. Wonder why that would be ?

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 16.1

      Because he posts so much non-political content designed to get overseas page hits? Just a wild guess.

    • Chris 16.2

      “Wonder why that would be ?”

      The voyeuristic nature of people?

    • mickysavage 16.3

      Lets see, on an average day the Standard will put up (say) five posts, including open mike, one notice and feature and three longer posts on different subjects designed to stimulate some discussion.

      Yesterday Slater put up 31 posts including

      a biblical proverb designed to get world wide bible seeking hits,
      a face of the day post about an old guy who lives in Iraq and has not washed for 50 years,
      a general debate post similar to ours with 109 comments, TS had 273,
      a photoshopped picture of a tent city at Dotcom’s mansion,
      a post about National’s selection season with a big push for a young guy called Kael Roberts. I wonder if he has been to one of Simon Lusk’s candidate schools?
      a post made out of a comment made by one of Slater’s readers,
      a post about Dotcom and Bradbury,
      another post about Bradbury,
      a post about Australian economic problems containing three sentences of original text,
      a post attacking Lianne Dalziel for having too many assistants,
      a cartoon about Dotcom,
      a photo of the day post about a church in Poland with human bones inside it,
      yet another post attacking Len Brown,
      a caption contest about a middle eastern terrorist looking sort with a concrete block tied around him,
      a short post about Lord Tebbit in the UK attacking fat people,
      a map of the day showing that the US is the only nation in the world still using Fahrenheit to measure temperature,
      a post on a US poll showing that Chris Christie of the US is still popular even though his staff stuffed up a city’s transport system out of a political vendetta,
      a post attacking a German tourist,
      a post about how a Waiheke quarry has increased its charges,
      another post about Dotcom,
      a post about pedophile priests,
      a very unfunny fake transcript about a telephone conference between Labour and Green MPs,
      a daily trivia post,
      eight youtube videos including a cat video and a gun video both designed to get clicks and a video about someone falling asleep on the toilet, a young girl doing wheelies in a Corvette, and someone discussing having sex on a plane.

      Tremendous following? The site is full of click bait designed to get international clicks and the content and quality of the writing is very poor.

        • Grumpy 16.3.1.1

          Yep, there is no doubt he’s a page hits whore………but, is that a bad thing for a blog owner?

          • Pascal's bookie 16.3.1.1.1

            not really, but if you are using page views to trumpet how awesome you are, then it’s a pretty lame thing.

          • Jackal 16.3.1.1.2

            Not sure why you’re asking me Grumpy? I guess if a person is concerned with the Internet getting clogged up with lots of irrelevant crap that is simply designed to get more hits, they would think a site like Fail Oil is a bad thing. Clearly Slater prefers to stroke his own ego concerning a large amount of fleeting visits instead of actually producing some worthwhile and readable content. Unfortunately for him a hit counter doesn’t actually equate to a credible political blog at all.

      • BM 16.3.2

        Why would whaleoil get international clicks.

        If he’s getting a heap of traffic from off shore there’s something gone seriously wrong with the google search engine.

        Also why is the writing poor?, from what I can see it’s perfect for the audience it’s being pitched at.
        No one wants to read long winded waffle, blunt and to the point is what the majority of people want.

        • enoch powell 16.3.2.1

          Must be all the Kiwis that left for overseas between 2000 to 2009 years

          • One Anonymous Knucklehead 16.3.2.1.1

            Must be difficult being a wingnut, and not be able to remember election years, and quote statistics that are worse under National. How many per year between 1999 and 2008? How many per year since then?

            You really are trying to give the impression you’ere an idiot, eh.

          • mickysavage 16.3.2.1.2

            You need a history lesson.

        • mickysavage 16.3.2.2

          Why would whaleoil get international clicks.

          Do you have a better explanation for the gun clips and the biblical passages?

          Also why is the writing poor?, from what I can see it’s perfect for the audience it’s being pitched at. No one wants to read long winded waffle, blunt and to the point is what the majority of people want.

          You are right that it is perfect for the audience it is pitched at. It is not designed to stimulate thought or discussion. It is designed to stroke existing prejudices and feelings of superiority.

          • BM 16.3.2.2.1

            Do you have a better explanation for the gun clips and the biblical passages?

            Slater’s a religious man, he’s also gone a bit gun mad at the moment

            All the video’s and viral stuff is part of a clever SEO strategy, Slater knows how google works and he’s using it to his advantage, I’d bet money the vast majority of his traffic is from NZ.

            • mickysavage 16.3.2.2.1.1

              BM do you think that it is a good thing for Slater to engage in these tactics to increase page views and then claim that he has the most popular political blog in the country?

              • BM

                For Cameron, yes it is.
                His blog is one of his sources of income, the more traffic he gets to his site the better.

                Personally I think Whale oil has moved beyond being solely a political blog, as Cameron wrote a while ago he was trying to move his website content toward a more blokey audience.

                Think he wants to turn Whale oil more into a politics based FMH.

                • QoT

                  The original point of this thread, though, was the claim that Slater “has a tremendous following”. Which seems highly questionable given that everyone else seems to agree his viewership statistics are rubbish – albeit good for generating revenue.

                  • BM

                    He does seem to have a large following also unless you’ve seen his website stats and by website stats, I’m talking

                    Referrals
                    Where traffic’s coming from.
                    Bounce rate
                    Time on site
                    Page Views

                    Without knowing those factors you have no idea if his website stats are rubbish or not.

        • Pascal's bookie 16.3.2.3

          It would be interesting to see a breakdown of his numbers. How many hits he gets on the youtube, bible quote, and general fluff posts for eg. As well as the source of hits. He used to have one of those world map plugins that show where the hits for the site is coming from. From memory most of his hits came from Norway, the NZ, aus, and change…

      • Colonial Viper 16.3.3

        MS. I’m very sorry that you had to subject yourself to that.

      • phillip ure 16.3.4

        i had an encounter with slater a few yrs back..

        ..at the time i was posting about 15 stories/links per day…

        ..he advised me i was doing ‘too much’..

        ..and should cut back the number of stories i posted..

        ..i immediately cranked up my output..

        ..to the 40-50 stories i now/still do each day..

        ..and slater went away..and increased his daily output..

        ..didn’t he take his own advice..?

        ..phillip ure..

  17. alwyn 17

    Given the chaos that develops when anyone accepts Dotcom’s money the Left had better hope that RedBaronCV’s wishes are not satisfied. If a few thousand, or a few tens of thousands, of dollars can wreck Banks, Bradley and Thomson what would a few million do?
    As RedBaron suggests:

    “Would it not be sensible for Dotcom to also give some donations to labour, Mana and the Greens? A couple of mill would go a long way toward having coalition partners that respect your general stance”.

    Even ignoring the slight whiff of the view that RB seems to imply that these other parties principles can be bought it would probably be the case that that much of Dotcom’s money would be a fatal dose.
    All party treasurers should be warned to immediately burn any cheques from Kim.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12012014/#comment-756225

    • alwyn 17.1

      A correction. It isn’t Bradley and Thomson. It is Bradbury and Thompson. At least I spelt Banks properly.

    • RedBaronCV 17.2

      No whiff intended Alwyn – just pointing out that the right seem very interested in snooping on everyone, the left not so much – so no KDC would not be buying friends. Of course public declarations would be the order of the day.

      And a nice compliment in there too. Makes a change from those whose principles do appear to be for sale.

      • alwyn 17.2.1

        I think you worded it very well actually. You get across the idea that Labour and the Greens, in particular, will “respect your general stance”. That is sufficiently wooly to avoid any realistic claim of corruption while still getting the point across.
        You could hardly get away with something like “These three parties, for a fee, will give you anything you ask for. The price is two million dollars”. That would be a bit blunt and I don’t think you could really have suggested such an idea publicly.
        I thik that if asked the parties concerned would deny that you are speaking for them. The idea is out there of course.

        • RedBaronCV 17.2.1.1

          Of course I’m not speaking for any of them since, surprise, I don’t belong to any of them.

          And of course different political parties can share similar ideas without it being labled corruption. NZF doesn’t want to sell assets, nor do other parties.

          Basically, this is just a comment, no more no less, that doesn’t commit anyone and isn’t sourced from anybody else.
          Lot of angst about what really is just a minor comment on shared views about having a rule of law.

          But since you ask I don’t actually see any of those parties giving KDC exactly what he wants, nor did John Banks now did he?

  18. Tracey 18

    I am shocked. No disclosure from slater…

    Slater = a woodlouse or similar isopod crustacean.

    Slater = A verb meaning to sit backwards on a toilet while defecating. 

  19. Rob 19

    Interesting the comments re Farrar
    Beware his sole purpose to comment is the classic Right response aimed to change the debate so they controll the discussion
    He is like a CT slug cf to a slater!

  20. jcuknz 20

    There is or was a large slater in my shrub which I need to deal with before I have my shower … do I carefully lift it up and place it where it can scuttle back into its home from whence it fell …. or flush it down the toilet? :)

  21. Tracey 21

    Cactus kate is based in hong kong and has said in the past she supports slaters site. Hence I asked if she is an act party member.

    David farrar I have question that mr hooten and mr mapp cant or wont answer.

    If you think we are in a time of economic good news;

    Can you explain how the current “economic good news”, similar to that we’ve had from time to time over the last 40 years, will translate into changes for the 50% of kiwis who currently earn less than $30k per year, and when? And why anything will improve this time, unlike the previous economic good news times ?

  22. tricledrown 22

    The Hollow men are here again

    • Paul 22.1

      Yup the Hollow Men project is still going on, aided and abetted by characters like Farrar and. Hooton.
      All these folk are all really ACT ( libertarians/ Randists) and hiding in National in plain sight.
      This has been the plan ever since the failure of ACT. Hence Banks 1 seat tea party is able to dictate the education policy of the country. Key was heavily implicated by the Hollowman story. He played his role brilliantly in the first term, ably assisted by a corporate media, to build trust with the NZ public. It is depressing to see how easily many NZers can be duped. The dumbing down of education, and the distractions of sport and an increasing obsession with celebrity, means people are increasingly ill informed about what’s actually going on and easier to fool.
      Then term 2 and a more overt ACT agenda…asset sales, the privatisation of education.
      If they win again in 2014, NZ should expect to see the dismantling of the welfare state, the education and health systems of this country in Key’s 3rd term.
      Then it will be too late.

  23. Cactus Kate 23

    Tracey
    I haven’t been an ACT member for two years now. And I’m definitely not a Nat.

    And I haven’t given a cent to the Whaleoil site. When you stop guessing and find out precisely what his blog makes please let me know as he owes me at least 5 years of lunches.

    Thanks
    CK

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    GreensBy Steffan Browning MP
    5 days ago
  • Failure to diversify puts prosperity at risk
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    5 days ago
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    6 days ago
  • Bill English’s face is redder than his books
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    GreensBy Kevin Hague MP
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    GreensBy Russel Norman MP
    6 days ago
  • Irresponsible tax cuts lead to seventh successive deficit
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    GreensBy Russel Norman MP
    6 days ago
  • Minister closes down dissent on climate change
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    6 days ago
  • Heartfelt sympathy for Sydneysiders
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    6 days ago
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    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    1 week ago
  • Farewell at Phillipstown
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    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    1 week ago
  • The CIA Torture Report
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    GreensBy Kennedy Graham MP
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    GreensBy Kennedy Graham MP
    1 week ago
  • Haere Rā 2014
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    GreensBy Gareth Hughes MP
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    1 week ago
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    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
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    1 week ago

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