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	<title>Comments on: Secret moves to censor the net</title>
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	<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/</link>
	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
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		<title>By: NZ filtering &#8216;brainwash&#8217;-Foobar &#171; FACT &#8211; Freedom Against Censorship Thailand</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-149999</link>
		<dc:creator>NZ filtering &#8216;brainwash&#8217;-Foobar &#171; FACT &#8211; Freedom Against Censorship Thailand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-149999</guid>
		<description>[...] responded to an article in The Standard. I have replicated, slightly edited and extended that comment [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] responded to an article in The Standard. I have replicated, slightly edited and extended that comment [...]</p>
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		<title>By: felix</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146822</link>
		<dc:creator>felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146822</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;why the heck aren&#039;t we taking that approach?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I suspect because that&#039;s not the true objective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;why the heck aren&#8217;t we taking that approach?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I suspect because that&#8217;s not the true objective.</p>
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		<title>By: jarbury</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146748</link>
		<dc:creator>jarbury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146748</guid>
		<description>Sounds like it would be easier to shut down these sites than filter them - which begs the question of why the heck aren&#039;t we taking that approach?

Article in the Herald today mentioning Thomas Beagle (perhaps due to this post?):
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&amp;objectid=10584982

Strange that the Minister&#039;s office didn&#039;t want to comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like it would be easier to shut down these sites than filter them &#8211; which begs the question of why the heck aren&#8217;t we taking that approach?</p>
<p>Article in the Herald today mentioning Thomas Beagle (perhaps due to this post?):<br />
<a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&#038;objectid=10584982" rel="nofollow">http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&#038;objectid=10584982</a></p>
<p>Strange that the Minister&#8217;s office didn&#8217;t want to comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Anita</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146737</link>
		<dc:creator>Anita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146737</guid>
		<description>So you&#039;re saying everyone should have a right to view everything, but you&#039;re also fine with the fact that viewing some things is illegal and will be prosecuted?

Can you please explain the difference, in your view, between preventing someone viewing child porn, and allowing someone to view child porn and then immediately prosecuting them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you&#8217;re saying everyone should have a right to view everything, but you&#8217;re also fine with the fact that viewing some things is illegal and will be prosecuted?</p>
<p>Can you please explain the difference, in your view, between preventing someone viewing child porn, and allowing someone to view child porn and then immediately prosecuting them.</p>
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		<title>By: Foo Bar</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146736</link>
		<dc:creator>Foo Bar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146736</guid>
		<description>No, I argue that everyone should be able to see whatever they want and say whatever they want and that the government doesn&#039;t have the right to censor any of this.

It&#039;s supposedly a &#039;free&#039; society we live in. Freedom always comes at a price. Dealing with filth and human excrement like those sexually abusing children requires education, not censorship. We can all take responsibility for our own action. And I mean: Action, because what the government does is merely avoiding actually doing anything about it, while filtering bits, which means nothing to the children that are being abused! Someone else said: Children are not abused on the Internet but in their homes and families. That&#039;s exactly right. If the government would want to shut down child-porn, they would just have to call up the provides. But they don&#039;t, because they rather start wide-spread censorship.

Nobody says that child-porn is a good thing. Anyone possessing it may as well be prosecuted to the full extend of the law. But here it is merely used as the alibi to install something rather terrible: A full blown censorship and monitoring infrastructure, government controlled and with secret black lists.

As I said before, the Internet as a communication medium is too important and a revolution like nothing before in mankind&#039;s history, exactly because of its uncontrolled nature. Governments don&#039;t like things they can&#039;t control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I argue that everyone should be able to see whatever they want and say whatever they want and that the government doesn&#8217;t have the right to censor any of this.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s supposedly a &#8216;free&#8217; society we live in. Freedom always comes at a price. Dealing with filth and human excrement like those sexually abusing children requires education, not censorship. We can all take responsibility for our own action. And I mean: Action, because what the government does is merely avoiding actually doing anything about it, while filtering bits, which means nothing to the children that are being abused! Someone else said: Children are not abused on the Internet but in their homes and families. That&#8217;s exactly right. If the government would want to shut down child-porn, they would just have to call up the provides. But they don&#8217;t, because they rather start wide-spread censorship.</p>
<p>Nobody says that child-porn is a good thing. Anyone possessing it may as well be prosecuted to the full extend of the law. But here it is merely used as the alibi to install something rather terrible: A full blown censorship and monitoring infrastructure, government controlled and with secret black lists.</p>
<p>As I said before, the Internet as a communication medium is too important and a revolution like nothing before in mankind&#8217;s history, exactly because of its uncontrolled nature. Governments don&#8217;t like things they can&#8217;t control.</p>
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		<title>By: felix</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146726</link>
		<dc:creator>felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146726</guid>
		<description>Really?

I&#039;m no expert but I would imagine that for a filter to work, each and every URL request would have to be compared to a list before the file was served.

Wouldn&#039;t that slow everyone down?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no expert but I would imagine that for a filter to work, each and every URL request would have to be compared to a list before the file was served.</p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t that slow everyone down?</p>
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		<title>By: Anita</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146716</link>
		<dc:creator>Anita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146716</guid>
		<description>Are you arguing that everyone should be able to freely and without any controls or monitoring view material classified as objectionable so that they can argue that it was wrongly classified?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you arguing that everyone should be able to freely and without any controls or monitoring view material classified as objectionable so that they can argue that it was wrongly classified?</p>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146712</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146712</guid>
		<description>I think any justifiable censorship would allow appeals for changing content, and would require open review of anything they classify as restricted or banned. Neither of those conditions are filled here. *shrug*

Most certainly however, this needed a law to have been passed in order for the go-ahead, and it&#039;s undermining parliamentary sovereignty (as the DIA is not empowered to censor the internet yet) and legislative process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think any justifiable censorship would allow appeals for changing content, and would require open review of anything they classify as restricted or banned. Neither of those conditions are filled here. *shrug*</p>
<p>Most certainly however, this needed a law to have been passed in order for the go-ahead, and it&#8217;s undermining parliamentary sovereignty (as the DIA is not empowered to censor the internet yet) and legislative process.</p>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146710</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146710</guid>
		<description>Denying requests based on domain/subdomain and page URL is most definitely technically &quot;filtering&quot;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Keyword filtering is almost 100% ineffective nowadays&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is not keyword filtering. This is a master list, and there&#039;s no indications of how they&#039;re filling it. They are filtering requests to ISPs to display certain webpages based on their list, not searching for keywords.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I have yet to hear a convincing argument for such filtering that goes beyond the convenience of the enforcement agencies.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This system isn&#039;t even used for enforcement so that justification is complete crock anyway. It&#039;s censorship and should be treated as such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denying requests based on domain/subdomain and page URL is most definitely technically &#8220;filtering&#8221;.</p>
<blockquote><p>Keyword filtering is almost 100% ineffective nowadays</p></blockquote>
<p>This is not keyword filtering. This is a master list, and there&#8217;s no indications of how they&#8217;re filling it. They are filtering requests to ISPs to display certain webpages based on their list, not searching for keywords.</p>
<blockquote><p>I have yet to hear a convincing argument for such filtering that goes beyond the convenience of the enforcement agencies.</p></blockquote>
<p>This system isn&#8217;t even used for enforcement so that justification is complete crock anyway. It&#8217;s censorship and should be treated as such.</p>
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		<title>By: Lesbian Porn Movies</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-212384</link>
		<dc:creator>Lesbian Porn Movies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-212384</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Secret moves to censor the net at The Standard http://bit.ly/PFKWL&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Secret moves to censor the net at The Standard <a href="http://bit.ly/PFKWL" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/PFKWL</a></span></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146709</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146709</guid>
		<description>You know it won&#039;t actually slow you down unless the domain you&#039;re visiting is on their list, right? Jus&#039; saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know it won&#8217;t actually slow you down unless the domain you&#8217;re visiting is on their list, right? Jus&#8217; saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146708</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146708</guid>
		<description>Does it matter who it started under and who it finishes under? It&#039;s a stupid idea that sets up a watchdog with no accountability to stop something that is not a problem in the name of moralistic &quot;we have to be seen doing something!&quot; stupidity.

Stop trying to score points and actually think of the ramifications of one server collecting the IPs of anyone who visits a site and suppressing said site from casual internet users with no official complaints process. Can you not see how that undermines freedom of speech?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does it matter who it started under and who it finishes under? It&#8217;s a stupid idea that sets up a watchdog with no accountability to stop something that is not a problem in the name of moralistic &#8220;we have to be seen doing something!&#8221; stupidity.</p>
<p>Stop trying to score points and actually think of the ramifications of one server collecting the IPs of anyone who visits a site and suppressing said site from casual internet users with no official complaints process. Can you not see how that undermines freedom of speech?</p>
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		<title>By: Anita</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146704</link>
		<dc:creator>Anita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146704</guid>
		<description>Dammit, that&#039;s what happens when I edit comments after I write them :)

I only mean to say &quot;do we?&quot; about the right to have a say about which sites are blocked. I totally agree about the how.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dammit, that&#8217;s what happens when I edit comments after I write them <img src='http://thestandard.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I only mean to say &#8220;do we?&#8221; about the right to have a say about which sites are blocked. I totally agree about the how.</p>
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		<title>By: felix</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146702</link>
		<dc:creator>felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146702</guid>
		<description>The material is defined in law, but what does that have to do with challenging the way the restrictions on that material are enforced?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The material is defined in law, but what does that have to do with challenging the way the restrictions on that material are enforced?</p>
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		<title>By: Anita</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/secret-moves-to-censor-the-net/comment-page-1/#comment-146698</link>
		<dc:creator>Anita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17133#comment-146698</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;While no-one objects to possession of the heinious materials that the DIA is trying to block being illegal, we do have a right to a say on how any censorship is set up and what sites will be blocked. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Do we?

Objectionable material is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0094/latest/DLM313407.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;defined in law&lt;/a&gt;, we have a right to have a say about that law, but I struggle to find an argument that says we have a right to have a say about the interpretation of the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>While no-one objects to possession of the heinious materials that the DIA is trying to block being illegal, we do have a right to a say on how any censorship is set up and what sites will be blocked. </p></blockquote>
<p>Do we?</p>
<p>Objectionable material is <a href="http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0094/latest/DLM313407.html" rel="nofollow">defined in law</a>, we have a right to have a say about that law, but I struggle to find an argument that says we have a right to have a say about the interpretation of the law.</p>
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