web analytics
The Standard

Smith plans sale of trees to fund DOC

Written By: - Date published: 11:24 am, June 25th, 2014 - 132 comments
Categories: Conservation, Environment, national, same old national - Tags: ,

DoNOTDisturb

National is to introduce urgent legislation possibly today. The use of urgency is often controversial and should normally only be permitted where the measure has budgetary implications, where there is a discovered defect in legislation which needs to be corrected or where there is otherwise good reason to change the law quickly.

But this bill is deeply political and clearly designed for campaign purposes.  It will have limited effect in the South Island only and is obviously an attempt to drive a wedge between ordinary working people and environmental movements.  It could be called the “Deseat Damian O’Connor and Denigrate the Greens Act 2014″.  Because what is proposed is to allow the commercial use of felled trees in conservation areas on the West Coast.

The announcement said:

Special legislation is to be passed by Parliament to enable the recovery of high value native timber blown over in Cyclone Ita on West Coast public conservation land, Dr Nick Smith announced today.

“We need to take a pragmatic approach and enable the timber to be recovered where it can be done so safely and with minimal environmental impact. This initiative will provide welcome jobs and economic opportunities for the West Coast at a difficult time, and will provide a financial return to DOC that can be reinvested in conservation work,” Dr Smith says.

Smith claims that a law change is needed because the current Conservation Act makes no provision for timber recovery.  This is not surprising.  Conservation areas should be precisely that.  They should be areas where natural processes occur and commercial extraction of trees is banned.  I am struggling to understand how the removal of these trees can occur without damage to the neighbouring area occurring.

Smith claims that urgency is required because the beech timber will soon deteriorate with sap stain and borer.  But you have to question why it needs to be passed so quickly.  Under the bill recovery of timber is allowed until July 1, 2019 so obviously the deterioration is not immediate.  It makes you wonder why a normal legislative time frame cannot be followed.

The profits from the sale of the timber are intended to go to DOC.  It is a strange world where a conservation organisation needs to sell the very thing that it is trying to conserve so that its activities can be financed.

Forest and Bird have started a campaign allowing people to MPs and media from links on their website.  The reasons for their opposition is stated as follows:

It’s easy to think of these logs as waste, but these trees have an important ecological function – they nurture seedlings, they create a home for insects and critters – even native fish, and they help to create a nutrient-rich soil. In a healthy forest, a dead tree is just as important as a living one.

Windfall is a natural process – we should leave nature to do what it does best.

The bill is obviously an attempt to turn West Coasters against any party that stands up for environmental protection.  If it is passed the forests will be weakened as biomass and important habitats for other creatures are removed.  While there may be a case for limited extraction the bill should go to a select committee so that this can be explored.

Smith’s title should be changed to Minister for Deconservation.  Shame on him.

132 comments on “Smith plans sale of trees to fund DOC”

  1. dimebag russell 1

    smith is just another little money grabber.
    he dont know how to leave well enough alone.
    Before you know it there will be roads bulldozed into there and the place will be a fucking mess.
    and dont tell me about jobs.
    poeple move in and out of the west coast all the time.
    its a place where you get cheap housing and good pay.
    but the coasters never stop moaning.

  2. thecard 2

    Perhaps the urgency is required in relation to making a decision on whether to remove the trees in a timely fashion before that decision becomes academic ?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1

      Or perhaps because the National Party’s owner/donors are concerned that they’ll be prosecuted for touching them after Sept 20th and have paid for a quick law change.

      Time to get the monkeywrench out.

    • NickS 2.2

      Tree’s take time to decompose, so even a couple of years after being wind felled the wood will still be recoverable, so frankly urgency is hardly needed. Other than to try and buy votes on the west coast, through a very short term job boost.

  3. swinbetweentheflags 3

    Another smart political play by the Tories, but also a reasonable idea if the current bill can be amended. Labour simply must support an amended version of this bill, regardless of whether it is passed via urgency or not.

    Labour is the party of the labor movement; if they can’t support a relatively straight forward short-term strategy to create jobs and wealth on the west coast following a major natural disaster, they’re doomed to become Green-lite and eventually be overtaken as the major opposition party.

    We’re talking about removing excess trees – and only those that fell during the recent storm – so the natural ecological processes will not be affected. They’ll be removed mostly via helicopters.

    With the Solid Energy mine closures, Bathurst and OceaniaGold mines being mothballing, there needs to be some Govt-led solutions to the economic woes on the west coast.

    • weka 3.1

      “We’re talking about removing excess trees – and only those that fell during the recent storm – so the natural ecological processes will not be affected.”

      There is no such thing as ‘excess trees’ in a climax state forest. Or a regenerating one. Please go and learn some ecological science, and please stop telling the lie that these trees are not an intregral part of that ecosystem.

      There are other ways to create jobs.

    • fisiani 3.2

      This could be the defining difference in the election.
      In the Red and Green corner. A few thousand dead trees blown over by a cyclone to feed some worms.
      In The Blue Corner Windfall profits for DOC work, hundreds of jobs in logging , milling and transporting and clearance of land for replanting and making the forests safer. Timber for the rebuilding of Christchurch and furniture.

      It neatly sums up the essential difference on offer. Stone Age or Space Age. Green Taliban or Sensible Economics Waste Not Want Not. I’d love to see this debated at election time but I expect The Cunliffe to change his mind again by 5pm.

      • Weepu's beard 3.2.1

        If ecological protections are continually eroded like this then we’ll all be living in the Space Age.

        Literally, in space.

        [lprent: I wish I knew why you keep going into moderation. I’ll have another look later in the day. The most likely remaining reason seems to be that you are using a RSS reader/writer that has a non-conformant post and it is running afoul of the filter that moderates comments that don’t look kosher. I use that as a spam filter for the lazy bots that drop fields to improve spamming efficiency. ]

        • Weepu's beard 3.2.1.1

          20:00 hours, Saturday 28 June. Still not getting my comments through.

          It’s coz I’m Maori isn’t it?

          [Don’t know why Weepu but the engine keeps trapping your comments. I think it might be because you misentered your details at some stage – MS]

  4. Lanthanide 4

    Under the bill recovery of timber is allowed until July 1, 2019 so obviously the deterioration is not immediate.

    So if the timeframe was “unlimited”, that would also be evidence that “deterioration is not immediate”?

    Or, actually, the timeframe may have very little to do with the deterioration, which may actually happen quite quickly, but because they didn’t want to make it unlimited they had to put some date in place, and because they don’t know exactly how fast it will deteriorate, they gave a good margin for error?

    The profits from the sale of the timber are intended to go to DOC. It is a strange world where a conservation organisation needs to sell the very thing that it is trying to conserve so that its activities can be financed.

    Conserving dead trees doesn’t seem like a hugely valuable thing to be doing, especially if revenue can be extracted which can be put to very high value conservation work, like predator proof fences, pest-eradication and looking after endangered species.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      A profoundly ignorant remark, as shown by NickS below.

    • NickS 4.2

      Really short version – dead trees are as much a part of forest ecology as live trees.

      Barring pathological issues like kauri die back or pine beetle infestation due to climate change in northern america of course.

    • William 5.1

      That url should be

      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21062014/#comment-835915

      I’ll add that many of the replacement trees are already growing. They were living in the understory but couldn’t grow large because of lack of light. Now they have full light they will grow rapidly. Recovery of fallen logs will cause them to be destroyed due to trampling and delay the forest recovery..

    • fisiani 5.2

      You cannot see the forest for the trees.
      Extraction of the fallen logs will not destroy the forest.

      • NickS 5.2.1

        Forest ecology, it be too hard for fisi 😈

        Despite the fact most high school year 11 students would get the basics if you explained it to them.

      • weka 5.2.2

        Of course it won’t ‘destroy’ the forest. In the same way that not taking the logs won’t destroy the West Coast communities. Taking the logs will have an impact on the forest though, so stop lying about that.

        • Lloyd 5.2.2.1

          No, fisi is right. Removing the fallen logs will not destroy the forest. The removal will cause massive delays in regrowth, will remove a huge habitat for animals such as bats and insects which will feed birds, as well as extracting large amounts of what would eventually form humus to help the regrowth of the new trees.
          Destroy? no. Really screw up? Yes.

          Rather like the economic action of National on the New Zealand economy, isn’t it?

  5. john 6

    There’s hundreds of millions of dollars of high quality timber on the ground.

    Taking out 5% isn’t going to make any significant difference.

    And the West coast has just lost another major employer, so desperately needs a break.

    Or you could just condemn them all to the poverty and homelessness that is constantly complained about.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1

      Yes, because the profits from the sale and value added will stay on the West Coast and provide jobs forever.

      Good of you to confirm it’s all about the money. Since it’s all about the money, I note you haven’t considered the value of the natural capital at all.

      So much for the astute business ‘mind’ of the Right.

      • vto 6.1.1

        Exactly OAB. In john’s world it all about the money…. money money money

        forests don’t get a look in
        children don’t get a look in
        rivers don’t get a look in
        whales never got a look in
        kauri forests never got a look in

        it just goes on and on

        I imagine john eats money for dinner and breathes money in his lungs, dresses himself in money, speaks only ever about money, and even probably tries to fuck piles of money a-la scrooge mcduck

    • ghostwhowalksnz 6.2

      So the government doesnt create jobs then ?

      • john 6.2.1

        84,000 more jobs were created in the last year.

        http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1405/S00099/84000-more-jobs-in-last-year.htm

        Creation of jobs comes down to one thing – businesses making good profits.

        If you have policies to help business, there will be more jobs. If you have policies that will cut profits, you have less jobs.

        It’s that simple.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2.1.1

          And yet tax cuts in 2008 were followed by a rise in unemployment which persists. It’s that simple.

          • john 6.2.1.1.1

            Yeah right – rise in unemployment was due to the tax cuts – in fact they caused such a problem that the whole world went into the worst recession in living memory.

            Just when I though you couldn’t look more desperate….you come up with that.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2.1.1.1.1

              Claims a complex economic issue is “that simple”.

              Fails to recognise ridicule in response.

              We need better wingnuts

              PS: Is so witless he gets onto an argument about unemployment levels with a leftie, despite the relative track of the two parties. Labour achieved the lowest unemployment level in NZ history, you’d think even a wingnut would recognise the pitfalls, but not poor John.

              • john

                Your responses are usually so idiotic that it’s impossible to tell what you mean at all.

                You’re wrong anyway. The govt provides only a tiny percentage of jobs.

                Companies making good profits are what increases job numbers.

                It is that simple.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Government spending is responsible for 30-odd% of the economy. A tiny percentage indeed.

                  In my professional career I have watched (private sector) client companies go from four or five employees to hundreds. This was not “that simple”, no matter how much you would like it to be.

                  • john

                    It’s that simple.

                    If companies make profits, they can employ more people.

                    If companies don’t make profits, they lay off staff.

                    If companies make profits, the govt gets more tax and can employ more people.

                    If companies don’t make profits, govt gets zero company tax from them, and less paye, and then govt ALSO has to lay off staff.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Government has no role to play. Apart from the roads. And the educated workforce, and the rule of law, and the electricity infrastructure, and the fire service, but apart from that, you ask what the government has done to create jobs – nothing!

                      Oh, and telecommunications, R&D incentives, trade agreements, and a bunch of other things, but apart from those…

                    • framu

                      well done john – youve utterly evaded the rebuttal to one of your random claims – again

        • ianmac 6.2.1.2

          If 84,000 jobs were created last year and the unemployment rate hasn’t changed much, then the 84,000 must have been the result of 84,000approx jobs being lost.
          Like if I draw out $100 from my account then put it back again have I just created $100?
          In John’s Planet the answer is yes.

          • john 6.2.1.2.1

            Wrong.

            The total number of jobs is 84,000 MORE jobs than last year.

            More like it you have a mortgage, and put $84,000 in your bank account, you’re still $84,000 better off even though you still have your mortgage.

            • McFlock 6.2.1.2.1.1

              Basically, this government is so awesome it can just keep up with an increase in the working age population, such a shame for 147,000 unemployed in the underclass, not to mention the working poor /sarc

              And I note that total work hours increased 3.3%, while your 84,000 jobs was an increase of 3.7%.

              More fucking part-time insecure casual mcjobs. :roll:

              This country needs real economic progress, not casualisation.

  6. Bad decision by smith – bad for the forests and the country as a whole. Funny, when I was up at Perry Saddle Hut the other day i noticed the sign by the fire – “kindling helicoptered in so please use sparingly”. What happens in the forest stays in the forest.

  7. vto 8

    There is no need for urgency on this – it is entirely about trying to win the coast in the upcoming election where they are on a hiding to nothing after Pike River especially.

    But realistically there will be very little recovered due to difficulty of access and the danger associated with harvesting windfall – it aint anything like normal felling operations, it is very dangerous. In addition they will be at risk of swamping the market….
    …. but then again you should see some of them gun barrel trunks lying around – the bushmen are licking their lips and creaming their pants such is the size, beauty and quality of some of the windfall.

    If the left wants to keep hold of the political gains it currently has in this land of labour and union origins then its opposition to this should imo be token, to uphold your principles. Don’t make a big deal out of it other than to perhaps announce policy along the lines … “this windfall legislation will have a dropdead date for us of (pick some much earlier date than 2019)”.

    2c

    • john 8.1

      You say they shouldn’t do it because there’s not much wood there.

      You say they shouldn’t do it because there’s so much wood there it will swamp the market.

      I think that’s called grasping at straws.

      • weka 8.1.1

        Do you know what the hourly rate for running a helicopter is? Know what West Coast weather is like? Any idea of the terrain of the forest they are talking about?

      • vto 8.1.2

        You are not very good at comprehension are you. Why don’t you try reading again so you actually understand what was said.

        No wonder you have such stupid views on how society should work. Idiot

        • john 8.1.2.1

          Obviously I hit a nerve pointing out your contradiction.

          • vto 8.1.2.1.1

            You are an absolute idiot

            you say this “You say they shouldn’t do it because there’s not much wood there.”..
            .. no that is not what I said. I said they wont do much, not they shouldn’t do much; and that is not because there’s not much wood there, it is because it is too difficult to access and too dangerous

            then you say this “You say they shouldn’t do it because there’s so much wood there it will swamp the market.”…
            no that is not what I said. I said they risk simply swamping the market, not that they shouldn’t do it because they risk swamping the market.

            The two statements of mine mean exactly nothing like what you think they mean.

            Which is what I mean – you are a simpleton and an idiot. You wouldn’t actually know a market if it bit you on your fat arse. Your fat arse which sits down all day. An arse which has never actually done a proper days work in its life.

            • john 8.1.2.1.1.1

              Perhaps if you could make a longer more explanation – that one is as clear as mud.

              You obviously rely on complete and total ignorance to base your opinions on.

              Proof you do that is in your last couple of sentences.

              • vto

                It is only mud to people lacking comprehension skills like yourself….

                like your view above about how little effect you think collective nation-wide spending (i.e. government spending) has on the economy and jobs. Truly ignorant. But if you believe it you could head off to Somalia where there is virtually no government.

  8. One Anonymous Bloke 9

    The solution to this is simple. Get into the bush now and drive iron spikes into as many of the fallen trees as it takes to render the whole theft unviable.

    • john 9.1

      Yeah that’s right – kill off as many jobs as possible.

      Then you can spend years winging about poverty.

      Not everybody wants to waste their life spending 80 hours a week whining and whinging on the internet for zero effect and suckling off the taxpayers teat.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.1

        I see you’re back to plagiarising feeble drivel again.

      • Blackcap 9.1.2

        Good call John. The greenies and left seem opposed to any form of growth (economic) but are quite keen to call for things like living wages and other financial benefits to the less well off. What a bunch of hypocrites.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.2.1

          Yes! That explains why throughout New Zealand history, per capita GDP is always higher under Labour-led governments.

          Oh, no wait, it just shows that John and Blackcap are either ignorant or mendacious.

          Which is it? Are you dupes or duplicitous? I’m picking John is duplicitous and Blackcap is a dupe.

        • vto 9.1.2.2

          You should check the evidence blackcap…

          the evidence shows that there is always more growth under left governments than right governments.

          similarly, like this current government, right governments rack up more debt while left governments pay it down.

          go check the evidence so you can stop looking like a fool

    • fisiani 9.2

      That would kill or maim loggers . You are a truly sick person.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.1

        The forestry industry doesn’t give a fuck about its employees and I don’t see you complaining about them, and in any case you drive spikes then publicise it.

        I’m happy to accept full select committee hearings instead.

        • john 9.2.1.1

          Not giving a fuck about your employees looks saintly compared with your idea of DELIBERATELY harming workers.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.1.1.1

            I look forward to your campaigning for fully funded mining inspectors and OSH.

            • john 9.2.1.1.1.1

              We need more to counter to gormless idiots who think it’s a good idea to deliberately hurt forestry workers..

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                While you’re getting all hysterical, I note that in human history one worker, maybe, has been injured in a tree-spiking incident, and the “spike” in question was most likely an old nail.

                So there’s that.

                Your side still has Pike River and Cave Creek to explain, not to mention the recent ‘spike’ in infectious disease hospital admissions due to inequality and deaths associated with your climate denial.

                You were warned about it, you deliberately chose to ignore the warnings and hurt everyone else instead.

                The moral high ground is over there. You need a map to find it.

                • Grumpy

                  Headlines on the Coast “Green, Labour activists promote sabotaging fallen timber”.
                  That should get Damian back in, and do nothing for the Green vote on the Coast.

                  • john

                    Here’s the news tip line for the Greymouth Star
                    http://www.greystar.co.nz/contact

                    Some of the extremist nutter comments here that suggest sabotaging jobs would probably help sell a lot of papers.

                  • weka

                    Headlines on the Coast “Green, Labour activists promote sabotaging fallen timber”.
                    That should get Damian back in, and do nothing for the Green vote on the Coast.

                    The electorate includes Tasman district.

                    The GP got 14% of the party vote in West Coast-Tasman in 2011 (compared to 11% nationally). Labour got 27%, National 46%.

                    Between Labour and the GP, they got 54% of the electorate vote, compared to National who got 40%

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast-Tasman#2011_election

                    Looks to me like quite a few GP voters in that electorate, who vote tactically on the electorate vote.

                    • john

                      You’re right – there’s always been a lot of greenies on the coast.

                      But the big split on the coast is more likely to be between Greens and everyone else, rather than the traditional left/right.

                      Many of the forestry workers who would lose out on jobs would be, (or at least used to be) Labour voters.

                    • weka

                      How many jobs are you envisaging?

      • joe90 9.2.2

        That would kill or maim loggers . You are a truly sick person.

        Nah, because blades cost a small fortune the thought that there may be foreign objects embedded would make it almost impossible to get a mill to accept any logs for processing.

        btw, I’d recommend a Paslode….drive them below flush – invisible to the naked eye.. .sweet…

  9. ghostwhowalksnz 10

    Whos to be checking that the loggers arent spying a nice standing tree and taking that too ?

    After all loggers dont seem to see rules and regulations as applying to them

  10. Ad 11

    Nope I’m with Smith on this one.
    West Coast has lost several hundred jobs recently. It needs all the help it gets – including from nature’s accidents.
    There’s still people in Kaitaia hauling out swamp Kauri logs from windfall from thousands of years ago. Good on them.

    • weka 11.1

      What are those people in Kaitaia going to do when the Kauri runs out?

      • Ad 11.1.1

        Starviong on the streets. See Karol’s post on homelessness.

        • weka 11.1.1.1

          So it makes sense to create sustainable employment, rather than slash and burn employment, right?

          There is no reason why the current govt couldn’t be creating sustainable jobs, apart from ideology. That National refuse to create sustainable jobs is not a good reason to support slash and burn ones.

          • john 11.1.1.1.1

            Govt doesn’t create jobs – private companies create jobs.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.1.1.1.1

              So Shane Jones doesn’t have a job? That’s good.

              • john

                Over 90% of workers work in the private sector.

                If you want growth in jobs, profitable companies is where it will come from.

                THEN the govt can get a bigger tax take and also employ more people.

                Effectively there needs to be an additional TEN private sector workers, to get enough tax to employ ONE additional worker in the public sector.

                • dimebag russell

                  so what?

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  It’s sounding less and less simple with every passing comment.

                • McFlock

                  Your logic seems to be that because it is now then that is how it can only be.

                  I seem to recall that prior to 1985 that figure was close to 40%, not 90%.

                  I know it was a communist nightmare for randian superheroes like yourself, but we didn’t have 27% of children living in poverty.

                  • john

                    Today is not three decades ago. Things have changed

                    Most of us don’t live in the past, thank goodness.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Yes, 27% of children living in poverty is preferable because ideology.

                    • john

                      Many of todays definitions of poverty would cover most kids growing three and four decades ago. I seldom had one pair of new good shoes, let alone two pairs.

                      And I certainly didn’t have access to the internet or a computer.

                      And even the 50% or 60% of median income is a dubious measure.

                      By this standard, we could double the income of every person in the country and it would have no effect on the number of people living in “poverty”.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Oh dear. Innumeracy is a terrible handicap, and especially pathetic in one who pretends to business acumen.

                    • McFlock

                      I love the way tories need to deny almost every facet of reality in order for their policies to pretend to make sense:

                      AGC: deny it exists
                      Poverty (child, adult, whatever): deny it exists
                      Human irrationality even when money is involved: Deny – assume humans are rational economic actors
                      Fossil fuel depletion: deny, assume infinite contents of a finite volume
                      Government policy’s role in unemployment: deny

                      Goddamn reality’s liberal bias.
                      I don’t live in the past, but I learn from it. And I sure as shit don’t live in john’s fantasy world, aka “planet key”.

                    • john

                      Similarly, a DECREASE in the median wage, but no change in incomes at the bottom, would mean FEWER people fitting the definition of living in poverty.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      McFlock, you forgot “shoot the messenger” and “blame the victim”.

                    • McFlock

                      Similarly, a DECREASE in the median wage, but no change in incomes at the bottom, would mean FEWER people fitting the definition of living in poverty.

                      Broadly let’s go with that. Let’s assume that we reduce poverty by “levelling down”. That means less ferraris, but it also means less people able to outbid the formerly poor for basics like milk and eggs and shoes. Fewer handmade bespoke shoes polished in champagne, but a more equal market for basic shoes. If that was how poverty was to be reduced.

                      Poverty is relative, because it means everyone else can outbid you for the basics.

                      By the way, here’s a further example of your failure to read:

                      I seldom had one pair of new good shoes, let alone two pairs.

                      The criterion in the 2008 Living Standards deprivation index was:

                      Continued wearing worn out shoes

                      Where did you get the idea that a poverty measure included “not having at least TWO pairs of new, good shoes”?

                    • john

                      McFlock, lowering the MEDIAN income (but not touching those above median) would mean fewer people would be in poverty according to the 60% of median definition.

                      All sorts of definitions are used to define poverty, including –

                      -a waterproof and warm jacket (my kids puffer jackets are warm, but they’re not waterproof, so fail there)
                      -buying new rather than second hand cloths (fail there – we have some hand-me-downs and buy great second hand clothes at times).
                      – having a roast meal at least once a week (fail there)
                      – two pairs of good shoes (fail there at times)
                      – no furniture that’s worn out (fail)
                      – eat meat, fish or chicken at least every second day
                      – go out for entertainment at least once a fortnight (not always, so fail there).

                      Perhaps our children are part of those figures you talk about.

                    • McFlock

                      john,
                      do your kids have waterproof clothing?
                      if not, is this because you cannot afford it, or because you’re an arsehole?

                      The first is economic hardship, the second is maltreatment by a dickwad. What score do your kids have for shit you cannot afford to provide?

                      You fucking idiot.

                    • john

                      They are cosy and warm in their nice new Kathmandu and Macpac puffer jackets – but no, they’re not particularly waterproof in heavy rain.

                      And in your book this is maltreatment of children, or to quote you – “you’re an arsehole? “maltreatment by a dickwad” “You fucking idiot.”

                      Do you ever read your verbal vomit?

                      What a huge amount it tells us about the type of person YOU are.

                    • McFlock

                      lol

                      you’re the sort of fuckwit who blatantly lies about measures of child poverty experienced by his neighbours and you don’t want abuse?

                      Fuck off you unregenrate piece of dogshit. You don’t get to deny the very real hardship of children and get away with it scot-free. You might get a knighthood for being a moronic sociopath, but you won’t get treated like a normal human being worthy of respect.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Poor John, can you not conceive of a set of numbers where all n > 60% of the average?

                    If you can, why pretend doubling everyone’s wages is relevant to your ‘argument’?

                    • john

                      It’s pretty basic – If you can’t understand that doubling a set of incomes doesn’t make any difference to how many are 60% of the median, then time to go back to school.

                      Similarly, if you can’t understand that lowering the median will mean fewer people are less than 60% of median, then best go find a 12 year old to get some maths tuition.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      What about increasing the lowest wages until they are >60% of the average, John? Why are you wanking on about doubling the whole set and/or lowering the median, when neither of those measures would do a damn thing?

                      It’s because you’re a dishonest wanker with zero personal responsibility, eh John.

                      Either that or innumerate.

                      Which is it? Onanism, or stupidity?

                    • john

                      As I said – if you can’t understand that, then time for you to consult a child about your maths.

                      Using an arbitrary 50 or 60% of median wage as a figure poverty figure is nonsense.

                      It takes in no consideration of if there’s 2 mouths to feed, or 10. Whether someone pays hundreds a week in rent, or lives in their own house.

                    • McFlock

                      It takes in no consideration of if there’s 2 mouths to feed, or 10. Whether someone pays hundreds a week in rent, or lives in their own house.

                      Stop making shit up you fucking idiot:

                      Note 3: Most income poverty measures use equivalised disposable household income (i.e. after tax household income adjusted for family size and composition). Both measures can be calculated before or after taking housing costs into account.

                      edit: I’m outta here for a few hours. Don’t let reality get in the way of your statements, I like laughing at fucking morons like you.

                    • john

                      Thanks for the link
                      http://nzchildren.co.nz/IncomeBasedMeasures.php#Table_1

                      It shows four different ways of measuring poverty, all of which show a reduction in child poverty numbers since 2001.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Govt doesn’t create jobs – private companies create jobs.

                      Another bald faced lie.

                      Large companies and corporations DESTROY jobs, because reducing wages is PROFITABLE.

                      Gawdammit, where are the qualified wing nuts.

                    • john

                      Laughable – there’s been 84,000 new jobs created last year.

                      Yet the public sector only created 390 of those.

                    • McFlock

                      It shows four different ways of measuring poverty, all of which show a reduction in child poverty numbers since 2001.

                      until 2007.
                      What did national do to stop the GFC increasing child poverty?

                      Not e-fucking-nuff you prick

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Every argument a lie. Every fact a red herring. John’s intellectual poverty and deceit on display for all to see.

            • weka 11.1.1.1.1.2

              “Govt doesn’t create jobs – private companies create jobs.”

              So why aren’t private companies creating sustainable jobs then?

            • Lloyd 11.1.1.1.1.3

              You don’t understand jobs do you? Please explain how jobs were created by the Soviet economy? I am not convinced that private companies made all those tractors you saw on the Soviet Union propaganda movies. I’m not saying that the Soviet Union was the best model for generating jobs, far from it, but it did work fairly well for about 50 years, longer than most capitalist organisations.

              Government controlled organisations can create jobs. It just depends on the government controlling the organisation in a similar way to a successful capitalist. The organisation does not have to be private.

              The argument that something has to be privately owned to be successful is just a product of that neo-liberal propaganda factory known as the Chicago School of Economics.

          • Ad 11.1.1.1.2

            It’s precisely the lack of either slashing or burning that should appeal to you then.

            • weka 11.1.1.1.2.1

              Removing windfall trees from intact native ecosystems in order to fund DOC and provide jobs in the short term IS slash and burn. It’s not slash and burn of the forest, it’s a slash and burn mentality that says we can take what we want now and not take into account things like the laws of physics or biology and we don’t have to act sustainably because we want what we want now and bugger the future.

              The Minister of Conservation is ignornant of how forests actually grow and thinks that the trees are ‘wasted’ if not removed. That’s slash and burn mentality. 150 years ago we literally slashed and burned. Now we like our slash and burn with some greenwash.

              Have you read Nick and my comments in the previous thread (linked above), where we explain the biological realities of how forests grow and function?

  11. weka 12

    There doesn’t seem to be much information about the actual place the trees would be taken from. I had a look the other day and could only find one decent photo, and it was of bush edge. Where’s the detail? What kind of forest, where is it, what jobs and for how long, given it is conservation estate, who has done the audit on extraction and profit etc etc.

  12. millsy 13

    Get the trees? Fine. Just plant 2 for every one taken. I think that is a fair trade

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1

      They’re already growing, unless they get destroyed by logging activities…

    • ghostwhowalksnz 13.2

      The forest has enough young trees growing in the understory, the ‘logging’ will trample that.

  13. millsy 14

    And don’t fuck it up. Though they cannot be trusted not to

  14. dimebag russell 15

    more piffle from john who doesn’t seem to know the first thing about logging, the environment or job creation. he just spouts a whole of gibberish from miltonfriedman 101. If you want to create jobs then do what Keynes suggested and put all the gold in the world in a hole and then pay people to dig it up again.
    as for johns assertion that not providing jobs for the already nearly at capacity forest industry is hurting workers then I suggest he looks at the figures for accidents in an industry that doesn’t give a fig about its workers. only its profits.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1

      Shorter John: the rockstar economy barely keeps up with population growth. Our economic strategy is gale force winds.

    • john 15.2

      So we need more jobs for people.

      But we don’t have enough people to do the work.

      Latest news on forestry accidents from Radio NZ –

      “In the first five months of this year 46 serious injuries were reported compared with 82 in the same period last year.

      There was one fatality between January and May, compared to six in the first half of last year.”

      • One Anonymous Bloke 15.2.1

        Problem: Rockstar economy fails to provide enough work for all, fails to even match working age population growth.

        Solution according to John: increase population growth. And gale force winds.

        Hodson & Busseri are definitely on to something.

  15. dimebag russell 16

    so what does doc want the money for?
    so more beardy weirdys can mess round with kiwis and kakapos and put them off, you know, doing it?
    and john I just read your last post and it doesn’t make sense.
    why is that?

    • weka 16.1

      DOC is severely underfunded. Because NACT cut their funding. DOC needs money for conservation and management of the conservation estate. Logging windfall is part of the neoliberal agenda to make everything function under a business model, irrespective of whether that acutally works or not.

  16. vto 17

    this callous nasty poster john has suddenly become very active…

    thing is that he sounds like a total theorist who sits behind a desk each and every day and has never actually done a real job in his life… never created anything …. never truly contributed …. just sat on his arse … today sits on his arse ….

    what an arse

  17. Mike the Savage One 18

    While there will be some political intentions behind this bill, and especially its urgency, I think that in such situations, where large areas of native forest have been devastated by an unusual major storm, there should be exceptions allowed to harvest a number of trees that can be gathered and transported with minimal interference to the natural environment. This can be done with special equipment, and also helicopters being used.

    This proposed once off law change, apparently just for a specified purpose in this one case, is exactly the kind of stuff that will gain Nick Smith and National sympathies in the wider public, and make environmentalists and the Greens look like “purists” holding positions beyond reason. To stubbornly oppose this move, this will most likely have more negative results, than for the Greens (and some opponents within Labour), simply saying, ok we can agree to it, under very strict terms though.

    The natural environment will not be harmed too much, if only a smallish percentage of the logs get taken out, which seems to be the intention, and the trees too hard to harvest, or already otherwise unsuitable to be taken out, are left behind. The argument that this will disturb natural ecological, biological cycles of degeneration does not sound convincing enough, as even normal native forests will lose nutrients from rotting trees and other plants through the rain that falls and washes a fair bit out of foliage and soils into waterways.

    Ensuring this move is just limited for taking out trees in this particular case and defined areas on the West Coast, and that it will be done by avoiding much disturbance of the remaining biosphere, there will not be too much damage done, while some sawmills and other businesses will benefit, by also creating additional employment.

    It would disappoint the government, should the Greens take a more constructive stand, as then the Nats could not exploit this bill for political purposes. Better keep up the pressure and focus on other areas and topics, including the Maui dolphins, dear Greens, than make this an uncompromising debate. It is not something comparable to what is happening in large parts in Indonesia, in the Brazilian Amazon region and so forth.

    • weka 18.1

      Do you have a link to details on the harvest, how it will be done, where, etc?

      Why do you trust National, and the logging companies, to do the right thing by the environment in this process?

      “The argument that this will disturb natural ecological, biological cycles of degeneration does not sound convincing enough, as even normal native forests will lose nutrients from rotting trees and other plants through the rain that falls and washes a fair bit out of foliage and soils into waterways.”

      Think that through a bit more. If nutrient loss is normal via rain, what happens when you start taking out biomass as well?

      • Mike the Savage One 18.1.1

        Helicopters were used before, I have not bothered to dig out a link though. It is technically possible to “harvest” trees (the logs really, with branches chopped off on site) without too much interference.

        When you have wide areas devastated and laid bare to heavy rain, even the logs and foliage will not stop rain from washing out many nutrients and so, as the trees do no longer protect the soil enough. Regeneration is possible, and it can be so, with leaving branches and foliage behind, while still taking out the tree stems and logs.

        Environmentally forestry is practiced in a fair few countries, some now also in tropical forests, but traditionally in many places in Continental Europe, where you do not chop down whole plantations, which is though common still in NZ.

        As with mining, there are techniques now, that interfere as little as possible, and the environment will not suffer much at all. As this is an unusual, emergency kind of situation, it seems a bit ridiculous to make this a high end environmental battle ground, likely to not favour the Greens and environmentalists at all, as most will view them as too “fundamentalist” and “purist”. That can lead to vote losses, I fear.

        • weka 18.1.1.1

          Do you have a link to some photos? I’m not sure that the forests have been laid bare.

          Of course regeneration is possible. It just won’t be intact native ecosystem, it will be managed forest. Why not just be honest about that? Then we can look at the differences between intact ecosystems and ones that are considered useful for extraction.

          “Environmentally forestry is practiced in a fair few countries, some now also in tropical forests, but traditionally in many places in Continental Europe, where you do not chop down whole plantations, which is though common still in NZ.”

          I’m all for sustainable, mixed species, selective logging forestry, including of native timber. I just don’t think it should be done on conservation estate. If we want native timber for use, we should be growing it ourselves, not cherry picking out of existing protected forests.

          Have you seen this?

          http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26062014/#comment-839493

      • Mike the Savage One 18.1.2

        Weka – your concern is a bit too high, as with your argument, farmers should not be allowed to harvest hay or straw, when harvesting just the “grain” itself. Also what about other crops, where you then would have to leave it all on the fields to rot?

        I understand that natural forests are somehow a bit different, but when such a once off storm happens, there is not much damage done by just harvesting a small percentage of the actual tree logs, and leaving branches and other foliage behind, to rot and serve as nutrient delivering fertiliser for new growth.

        • weka 18.1.2.1

          Hoisted on your petard there mate. The whole point is that conservation estate is not a harvestable crop. If you want to farm native trees, then farm them. No problem with that.

          As for grain cropping, there is significant evidence that removing the straw and then stubble by say burning is hugely damaging to the soil, ongoing fertility, and the sustainability of that land management. Sustainable practices tend to let the stubble/hay stay on the land and be part of the fertility cycle, and/or the material gets made into compost (either by grazing or by humans).

          “I understand that natural forests are somehow a bit different, but when such a once off storm happens, there is not much damage done by just harvesting a small percentage of the actual tree logs, and leaving branches and other foliage behind, to rot and serve as nutrient delivering fertiliser for new growth.”

          [citation needed]. See my link above, and bear in mind that large trunks serve a different function than leaves and small branches.

          • Mike the Savage One 18.1.2.1.1

            Hah, heard of farming? Hay and straw are never removed from the fields forever, as they are returned by spreading the dung from the cattle and cows that may feed on them. But that may not be practice so much everywhere in NZ, as it is in other places of agricultural use.

            You have little idea about farming or forestry it seems, apart from reading some academic literature.

            I know people in both fields, and they tell me that it is not going to be a disaster to pick a few logs out of a forest and leave branches and other stuff behind. Forests do regenerate, and what exactly do the logs contain, I ask? Lots of wood fibres, and the leaves may contain more nutrients and so than the stems of trees. The trees live from what is in the ground, minerals and so, and there is bound to be more in the way of minerals and “fertiliser” in the ground anyway, it is not always a “cycle” without external input, that is between dying wood and leaves, and new growth, add the earth into it, perhaps.

            Native forests have also regrown in places, where there was some mining and agriculture and forestry before. I accept that great caution should ge applied, but it is not always a disaster to harvest a few logs out of a forest.

            • weka 18.1.2.1.1.1

              “I know people in both fields”

              So do I, including people who are farming sustainably.

              But you are still missing the point. Two of them.

              One, you know farmers and foresters, but not ecologists and conservationists. Farming and forestry in NZ are both largely extractive industries. If you want conversation estate to be the same, just be honest about it.

              Two, yes it’s possible to harvest windfall from native forest, it won’t kill the forest, but it WILL change it, and that change is what is at issue here. Saying ‘it won’t be a disaster’ is a straw man.

              You think it’s ok to mine conservation estate, and you are ok with the changes to that forest as a result. I’m not.

              “The trees live from what is in the ground, minerals and so, and there is bound to be more in the way of minerals and “fertiliser” in the ground anyway, it is not always a “cycle” without external input, that is between dying wood and leaves, and new growth, add the earth into it, perhaps.”

              With all due respect, you need to read some soil science, and then some mycology. Then look at ecological studies on climax forests and how they function (not sure we are talking about climax forest to be honest, the trees in that picture of Nick Smith look like immature ones to me, but that’s a whole different kettle of fish).

              btw, did you read the link I gave above, which has comment from F and B on the whole ecology aspects?

              • weka

                The other thing at issue here is what will happen to these forests over the next decades and centuries of AGW. If we were sane as a country, we would be leaving the windfall and putting scientists in to study the regeneration and how it is changing over time and what happens to the whole system. Given that high wind events are likely to be more frequent, this seems crucial.

              • Mike the Savage One

                “Farming and forestry in NZ are both largely extractive industries. If you want conversation estate to be the same, just be honest about it.”

                I am not on about farming and forestry in NZ, I am on about farming and forestry in a wider sense, for instance as practiced in the EU, but that is of course an “evil” place, as it is supposedly all “subsidised” and not for other reasons sensible.

                You are obviously coming from a fundamentalist based thinking, and that is sadly why you will NEVER convince many in the wider public, as few are expert scientists, and have all reports to read on every little detail on soil science.

                If we would apply the strict rule, we should not even allow agriculture in New Zealand, as it would harm the soil too much, right?

                So I can guess your voter base to be close to 1 per cent, and that will make a huge difference this election, I am so sure of, ahem, ah, I d o not know?!

                I suggest also, that in the likely urban environment, where you may be living, you carry out your manure to the soil outside, as that is where it deserves to be kept, as to regenerate growth at ground zero, so to say, to recycle things. It would not be correct for you to even put any rubbish into your rubbish bin, as it should in the holy sense of environmental correctness be recycled right at your domestic point of residence and interaction.

                With such thinking, I am not surprised, the “progressives” have too few spokespersons that convince enough others to change their worrisome behaviour, which is what we should really be addressing.

                • weka

                  No idea why you think Europe is evil. Am happy to read some links of sustainable forestry from there.

                  What I’m talking about is systems thinking. It’s not just within science, many people who work with the land use systems thinking.

                  I vote GP. They’re currently sitting around 12%, and afaik agree with the generalities of what I am saying.

                  I live in a farming community. I have a composting toilet. Where I live, neither of those things is particularly remarkable.

                  “If we would apply the strict rule, we should not even allow agriculture in New Zealand, as it would harm the soil too much, right?”

                  What strict rule? Where humans live and need to get their needs met, we can practice sustainable agriculture. All I’m saying is that humans don’t have to make everything serve their needs. It’s ok to have conservation estate that is off limits to harvesting. NZ has a very fine conservation history, and the values from that are engrained in the population. Yes there are people who believe that mining in conservation estate is ok, but I’m willing to bet there are more people in NZ who believe the opposite. I think this would be true for removing windfall trees, once the population was educated on all the pros and cons (although I suspect the most NZers have other things on their minds than conservation).

    • Blackcap 18.2

      You make some very good points there. I am not a left voter or green voter usually, but you are right that the general public get very fed up with a continual “no” from green supporters even when it really does not warrant a “no”. This kind of things “opposition to taking the fallen logs” plays right into Nationals hands and turns the majority of people against the greens.

  18. Lloyd 19

    When questioned if the logs will be taken out by Westland firms and be milled in Westland, John Key laughed.

    Any West Coaster who thinks this law change will create a logging boom with jobs for him or her and their neighbours will probably be bitterly disappointed.

  19. dimebag russell 20

    on the head KS.
    and they want to wreck everything else just because they can.
    they are like some evil spirit let loose on the world.
    up against the wall muthufuckas.

  20. Michael D 21

    The recovery economics don’t stack up, The few mills that can handle these logs are tiny and the cost of roading to get to them is prohibitive. Heli-logging is the only viable option that avoids roads, but this will only just cover costs, there is no room for profit. Nothing will happen other a few % of area that is close to a formed road.

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • #RedMyLips: April 28 “Minister for Women”
    Or is she? Sexual violence is not a women’s issue, it is a human issue and affects all of us. The month long ‘RedMyLips’ campaign started in 2011 and aims to raise awareness and much needed discussion on this topic.… ...
    Politically CorrectedBy sleepdepriveddiva
    5 hours ago
  • #RedMyLips: April 27 “Best friends”
    Sexual violence is not a women’s issue, it is a human issue and affects all of us. The month long ‘RedMyLips’ campaign started in 2011 and aims to raise awareness and much needed discussion on this topic. This year is… ...
    Politically CorrectedBy sleepdepriveddiva
    5 hours ago
  • What is Keynesianism in the 21st century?
    After the dismal failure of neo-liberalism to foresee the global financial crisis, let alone have answers to how to fix it, Keynes has made a comeback; but his 21st century acolytes disagree on what constitute Keynes’ key ideas by Michael… ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    7 hours ago
  • Fear and loathing in the UK
    It is now only 9 days until the UK election, and having failed to win any public support for their policies, the tories are trying to frighten the electorate instead. Their core tactic has been an attempt to delegitimise Scottish… ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    12 hours ago
  • More on the investment approach
    The Productivity Commission has a report calling for an extension of the government's investment approach to cover education, healthcare, social housing, and other services, in addition to its current use in welfare programmes. I generally like the investment approach… ...
    PolityBy Rob Salmond
    13 hours ago
  • State of emergency declared in Baltimore
    Violence erupted on the streets of Baltimore yesterday, hours after the funeral of Freddie Gray, a 25-year-old African-American man who died in police custody earlier this month. Protesters clashed with police, pelting officers with rocks, bricks and bottles. Police fired… ...
    14 hours ago
  • Do parking minimums restrict competition?
    During the Unitary Plan submissions process, a number of retailers and shopping centre owners took a pretty conservative stance on transport. They argued for maintaining parking minimums, replacing maximums with minimums in some areas, and so on. Some argued that… ...
    Transport BlogBy John Polkinghorne
    15 hours ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    15 hours ago
  • Climate change: Good news on agriculture
    New Zealand's policy on climate change has been one of inaction, justified by excuses and special pleading. A key plank in this is our emissions profile. Roughly 50% of our greenhouse gas emissions come from agriculture. We can't do anything… ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    15 hours ago
  • And the OSPAR goes to… the Arctic!
    Yes, that is not a typo. The OSPAR Award. A long awaited Award that the Arctic well deserves.But, what is an OSPAR? The OSPAR Convention is an international agreement of 15 European countries (Arctic and non Arctic states) plus the… ...
    15 hours ago
  • What causes world happiness?
    Jeff Sachs and co-authors have just published the 2015 edition of the World Happiness Report, which presents research into which countries are happier than others, and why. First, nationalistic good news. We’re in the top 10! And we’re beating out… ...
    PolityBy Rob Salmond
    15 hours ago
  • Health Sector Needs More User Pays, Less Nanny State
    Some people label ideas like a junk food tax as ‘nanny state’, but ultimately such soundbites are overly simplistic, because we already have a situation where the state interferes in our lives. Are unhealthy people such as smokers or people… ...
    Gareth’s WorldBy Geoff Simmons
    16 hours ago
  • Productivity Commission sends worrying signal ahead of Budget 2015
    The Public Service Association (PSA) says today’s release of the Productivity Commission’s draft Report Into Social Services sends a worrying signal of the Government’s intentions ahead of Budget 2015. ...
    17 hours ago
  • Power and ponytails
    From the ongoing unfolding issue about the Prime Minister's ponytail pulling, specifically in the case of Amanda Bailey, there's one little bit I want to write about a bit more, and it comes back to this quote from The Nation… ...
    17 hours ago
  • Dunedin talk: After the 1916 Rebellion – the Irish war for independence a...
    Speaker: Dr Philip Ferguson (Phil was a Sinn Fein activist in Dublin from 1986-1994, when he left because he disagreed with the direction the leadership of SF/IRA were taking. He is currently a member of Clann éirígí and he blogs… ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    17 hours ago
  • “Get some guts”
    I will not—will not—stand by while... people are out there being beheaded. I am sorry, but this is the time to stand up and be counted. Get some guts and join the right side. That was John Key in February,… ...
    PolityBy Rob Salmond
    18 hours ago
  • Me on QT
    (Caution! Self-promotion.) I got word the other day that the editorial board of the Journal of Legislative Studies have chosen my piece on question times as the best article in the journal for 2014. Obviously it is humbling to get… ...
    PolityBy Rob Salmond
    18 hours ago
  • Submit to the power of authority
    You have until midday today to make a submission to the Council on the Long Term Plan. You may want to make a submission to tell them how you feel about say asset sales, or the arts budget, or cycle… ...
    Rebuilding ChristchurchBy rebuildingchristchurch
    18 hours ago
  • “Casual”
    Key is, of course, right. He really is the most casual PM we’ve ever had. (Maybe if the Lamburglar had more than 9 weeks in the job he could have challenged for the title, but that didn’t happen so it… ...
    PolityBy Rob Salmond
    18 hours ago
  • Nepal aid effort intensifies
    Humanitarian agencies are preparing large-scale aid operations to earthquake-ravaged Nepal, with tonnes of supplies being flown into the country. Photo: AFP More than 4000 people are known to have died in the 7.8 quake on Saturday and more… ...
    19 hours ago
  • Cave Creek tragedy marked 20 years on
    Commemorations are taking place today to mark 20 years since the Cave Creek disaster that claimed 14 lives. Thirteen Tai Poutini Polytechnic outdoor recreation students and a Department of Conservation officer died when a DoC viewing platform collapsed into a… ...
    19 hours ago
  • The X Factor NZ: Back to black
    This week was yet another reminder that beneath a thin veneer of order, chaos still reigns at X Factor NZ. X Factor's Steve Broad. Photo: The X Factor NZ With the announcement this week that Dominic Bowden… ...
    20 hours ago
  • Envirologue: Too Big to Fail – Why National will Never Act on Climate Cha...
    Californians, withering in the worst drought in the state’s history, are being exhorted to leave their urine standing in the toilet, to keep their showers shorter than five minutes and to replace their lawns with rocks and cacti. Meanwhile, figures… ...
    20 hours ago
  • More thoughts on Light Rail details
    On the closed session agenda for tomorrow’s Auckland Transport board meeting is an item asking for a decision about Light Rail. Hopefully this will see the project move forward and the public provided with more information. With that in mind… ...
    21 hours ago
  • Questions and Answers – April 28
    Press Release – Office of the Clerk 1. CHRIS BISHOP (National) to the Minister of Finance : What reports has he received about lower than expected inflation in New Zealand?Questions to Ministers Inflation—Reports 1. CHRIS BISHOP (National) to the… ...
    Its our futureBy ScoopBlogPush
    21 hours ago
  • The “I” factor in political practice
    When is a Prime Minister a political person and when the voice of the nation? Opening the Pukeahu National War Memorial Park in Wellington on April 18, John Key said: “I feel proud of the decision to make Pukeahu… ...
    Colin JamesBy Colin James
    23 hours ago
  • A Programme of Phased Cuts in Company Tax
    Column – ACT New Zealand Over-taxing mobile capital is not a good idea not if you want jobs and higher wages anyway. Last week the ACT Leader announced a plan for a programme of phased reductions in the company… ...
    Its our futureBy ScoopBlogPush
    1 day ago
  • Trade Minister Cheers Big Corporation Over Ordinary People
    Press Release – New Zealand First Party Trade Minister Tim Grosers cheerleader role for the United States to speed up the Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement is worrying, says New Zealand First Trade Spokesperson Fletcher Tabuteau.Trade Minister Cheers Big Corporation Over… ...
    Its our futureBy ScoopBlogPush
    1 day ago
  • My other grandfather
    I have been stuck at home for several days, and so the build-up to Anzac day has been reduced for me to a series of media impressions. Fragmentary ones at that, as I actively tried to avoid the coverage. The… ...
    Bat bean beamBy Giovanni Tiso
    1 day ago
  • US: the state’s systematic violence kills another young black man
    Freddie Gray: brutally murdered by Baltimore cops by The Spark A young man is dead in Baltimore, killed by six murdering cops. In the same week, a murdering cop goes free in Chicago when a prosecutor and a judge tie… ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 day ago
  • Questions For Oral Answer April 28
    Press Release – Office of the Clerk 1. CHRIS BISHOP to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received about lower than expected inflation in New Zealand? QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS 1. CHRIS BISHOP to the Minister of Finance: What… ...
    Its our futureBy ScoopBlogPush
    1 day ago
  • Hobbling Democracy: TPPA and The Covenant of Secrecy
    Opinion – Binoy Kampmark The TTIP and TPPA, both sounding like ominous injections of political disaster, continue their march towards belittling, and corroding the democratic content of its participating countries. The holder of the needle remains US President Barack Obama,… ...
    Its our futureBy ScoopBlogPush
    1 day ago
  • The Decline and Fall of the United States | David Swanson
    Opinion – David Swanson After a speech I gave this past weekend, a young woman asked me whether a failure by the United States to properly surround and intimidate China might result in instability. I explained why I thought the… ...
    Its our futureBy ScoopBlogPush
    1 day ago
  • Fearing the loss of Hegemony: The Concept of US Retreat
    Opinion – Binoy Kampmark Nothing upsets those drunk on imperialist virtue than the fact it might end. Such romances with power do have a use-by-date, going off like old fruit. Eventually, the crippling contradictions will win through in the end.… ...
    Its our futureBy ScoopBlogPush
    1 day ago
  • Strong Support for Clarification of GMO Council Jurisdiction
    Press Release – GE Free NZ On Friday, 24 April GE Free Northland and the Soil & Health Association of NZ with 19 other 274 parties sought clarification in the Environment Court on whether there is jurisdiction in the Resource… ...
    Its our futureBy ScoopBlogPush
    1 day ago
  • Should Environmentalists Care About Poverty?
    Perhaps heightened by the leadership contest in the Green Party, there appears to be a debate going on about where environmentalism fits into the political spectrum. I am not a member of the Green Party (nor any other, for that… ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    1 day ago
  • Inoculating against science denial
    Science denial has real, societal consequences. Denial of the link between HIV and AIDS led to more than 330,000 premature deaths in South Africa. Denial of the link between smoking and cancer has caused millions of premature deaths. Thanks to… ...
    1 day ago
  • A year ago today – Auckland’s first electric trains
    A year ago today transport in Auckland was forever changed as the first electric trains started carrying passengers – although they didn’t start running in normal service till the following day. Electrifying Auckland’s rail network is something that had been… ...
    2 days ago
  • Media Link: Anzac Day panel on future conflicts.
    Commemorations of the 100th anniversary of the ill-fated assault at Gallipoli prompted Radio New Zealand to convene a special panel on the evolution and future of conflict since those tragic and futile days in 1915. I was invited to participate… ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    2 days ago
  • Australian cops shut down Aboriginal Anzac Day march
    The article below deals with the erasing of the Frontier Wars in Australia.  Something similar has happened in relation to the Land Wars in New Zealand.  The wars of conquest and confiscation of Maori land are totally eclipsed by carefully-constructed… ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • After World War 1: the horrors of peace at home (Australia)
    The small number of people involved in Redline means we simply don’t have the possibility to cover everything we’d like to.  This includes some very important stuff.  For instance, an article about what NZ soldiers came home to, an equivalent… ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • Hard News: Anzac Day II
    I spent a couple of hours at our local RSA on Saturday. It was well past the traditional solemnity of the morning, well into the drinking. The old fellows drank like soldiers and the soldiers, there in their uniforms, with… ...
    2 days ago
  • Pony-tails, panic and PR spin.
    How Crosby-Textor propose to rescue Key from the fall out over his casual Pony-Tail stroking.Rumour has it that the Crosby-Textor spin machine that elevated John Key to the leadership of the National Party and thence to Prime Minister of NZ… ...
    the Irascible CurmudgeonBy Alan Papprill
    2 days ago
  • Poor peer review – and its consequences
    See below for citations used The diagram above displays links between the journal, editors and reviewers in the case of the paper Malin & Till (2015). I discussed these links before in Poor peer-review – a case study  but thought… ...
    2 days ago
  • Capture: April Come She Will
    Over the month of April I've started a number of threads, but not quite found the time or inspiration to reach a critical mass.Looking back though, it was a fairly packed month, as we ease our way into autumn.So here's… ...
    2 days ago
  • Has John Key tugged off more than he realises?
    John Key's pony-tail-gate controversy seems to have divided people into two camps. The vast bulk of New Zealanders (to purloin a Key-ism) can agree on the fact that it's weird... and out of order. But then there are those who… ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    2 days ago
  • Rodney Hide: They’re all after me, man…
    The state apparently has me under covert investigation. It all started a couple of weeks ago when I was followed home by some guy in a long coat and dark glasses. It was 27 degrees and cloudy. My friends have… ...
    My ThinksBy boonman
    2 days ago
  • The road to Mike Hosking, vilifier of young women
    Some of us have always seen radio announcer Mike Hosking as a puffed-up little prat. I was there at Broadcasting House when this shortish young guy with a big voice and a very strange manner arrived in the Network Newsroom.… ...
    The PaepaeBy Peter Aranyi
    2 days ago
  • Hey RaboDirect, if Mike Hosking’s selling you, I’m not buying.
    A nasty side of radio announcer Mike Hosking spilled out into view last week as he ‘bashed’ the victim of John Key’s serial bullying. Hosking, supported by TVNZ’s OneNews, sponsored by RaboDirect, vilified the waitress whom the Prime Minister admits… ...
    The PaepaeBy Peter Aranyi
    2 days ago
  • Is Auckland boring enough?
    Via Jarrett Walker, I recently ran across a provocative article by Aaron Renn in the Guardian: “In praise of boring cities“. Renn takes his fellow urbanists to task for the narrowness of their vision about what makes a good city:… ...
    Transport BlogBy Peter Nunns
    2 days ago

  • More hype and half-truths from Coleman
    The rising incidence of rheumatic fever has nothing to do with ‘families having a better understanding of the disease’ as the Health Minister wants us to believe but everything to do with his failure to address the root causes of… ...
    11 hours ago
  • Regional air routes must be maintained
    The Government must use its majority shareholding to make sure Air New Zealand cooperates with second tier airlines stepping into the regional routes it has abandoned, Labour’s Transport spokesperson Phil Twyford says. Air New Zealand’s cancellation of its Kaitaia, Whakatane,… ...
    14 hours ago
  • Action needed on decades old arms promise
    Nuclear weapons states must honour the unequivocal promise they made 45 years ago to disarm, says Labour’s Disarmament Spokesperson Phil Goff. Mr Goff is attending the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference at the United Nations in New York. ...
    15 hours ago
  • Worker safety top of mind tomorrow and beyond
    Workers’ Memorial Day, commemorated tomorrow, is both a time to reflect and to encourage a better safety culture in all workplaces, says Labour’s spokesperson for Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway.“On Worker’s Memorial Day, working people across New Zealand will remember those… ...
    1 day ago
  • Communities forced to stomach water woes
    Confirmation by Health Minister Jonathan Coleman that he is to wind up a water quality improvement scheme will leave thousands of Kiwis with no alternative but to continue boiling their drinking water, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King says. The Drinking… ...
    2 days ago
  • Labour calls for immediate humanitarian aid for Nepal
    The Government should act immediately to help with earthquake relief efforts in Nepal, Labour’s Foreign Affairs spokesperson David Shearer says. “The Nepalese Government is appealing for international assistance following yesterday’s massive quake. The full impact is only now being realised… ...
    2 days ago
  • New holiday reflects significance of Anzac Day
    Anzac Day now has the full recognition that other public holidays have long enjoyed, reflecting the growing significance it has to our sense of identity and pride as a nation, Labour MP David Clark says.“The importance of the 100th Gallipoli… ...
    2 days ago
  • Housing crisis hurting export growth
    If Steven Joyce wants to revive his failing export growth target he needs to make sure the Government gets to grips with the housing crisis, says David Parker, Labour’s Export Growth and Trade spokesperson. “Our exporters are struggling to compete… ...
    5 days ago
  • Gallipoli’s lesson: never forget, never repeat
     A special monument to one of our greatest war heroes should be a priority for the new Pukeahu National War Memorial Park, Labour Leader Andrew Little says.  “This will honour the spirit of Lieutenant Colonel William Malone, who led 760… ...
    5 days ago
  • Minister for who? Women, or Team Key?
    Louise Upston yesterday broke her silence on John Key’s repeated unwanted touching of a woman who works at his local café, to jump to the defence of her Boss. Upston repeated Key’s apology but, according to media reports “she refused… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    5 days ago
  • Taxpayer bucks backing US billionaire
    Kiwis will be horrified to know they are backing a Team Oracle subsidiary owned by a US billionaire, Labour’s Sports and Recreation spokesperson Trevor Mallard says. It has been revealed today that a Warkworth boat building company, which is wholly… ...
    5 days ago
  • English’s sins of omission: ‘Nothing left to be done’ on housing
    When Bill English said ‘there is nothing left to be done’ on the Auckland housing crisis he had overlooked a few things – a few things, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says.  “He’s right if you ignore: ...
    5 days ago
  • Climate change now hurts Kiwis
    Kiwis have twice been given timely and grave warnings on how climate change will hit them in their hip pockets this week, says Climate Change spokesperson Megan Woods.  “The first is the closure of the Sanford mussel plant and the… ...
    6 days ago
  • Clean, green and chocolate!
    Like many people I absolutely love chocolate! But until recently I hadn’t given much thought to how it was grown and produced. Fair trade and ethical food production are core Green Party principles, so yesterday Steffan Browning and I were… ...
    GreensBy Mojo Mathers MP
    6 days ago
  • National admits loan shark law not up to it
    National has admitted new laws to crack down on loan sharks, truck shops and dodgy credit merchants aren’t up to the task of protecting vulnerable consumers, Labour’s Commerce spokesperson Kris Faafoi says. “Paul Goldsmith has acknowledged the laws might just… ...
    6 days ago
  • Power and the Prime Minister
    I’d like to acknowledge the young woman* who has publically told her story. It was a very brave thing to do. She kept her story very simple and focussed on her experience of what happened. It told of unwanted attention… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    6 days ago
  • Extra holiday offers time to reflect
    The Mondayisation of Anzac Day provides New Zealanders with an opportunity to spend more time with their families and their communities, Dunedin North Labour MP David Clark says. “This is the first time legislation I introduced, to have Anzac and… ...
    6 days ago
  • More angst and anguish for red zone locals
    Local residents will be bitterly disappointed by the Government’s cherry picking of the Supreme Court’s decision regarding compensation for red zoned property owners, Labour Canterbury Earthquake Recovery spokesperson and Port Hills MP Ruth Dyson says. “Home owners have taken all… ...
    7 days ago
  • Australia shows why we need a sovereign wealth fund now
    Australia has not managed its great mining boom well, says HSBC’s chief economist for Australia and New Zealand, Paul Bloxham. When times are good, governments need to save for the bad times that will inevitably follow, and this can be… ...
    GreensBy Russel Norman MP
    7 days ago
  • Pure Water- pure rip off
    New Zealanders’ rights to fresh water must be protected before commercial allocations are given, but the Government is allowing resources to be taken, says Kelvin Davis MP for Te Tai Tokerau.  “The Government needs to resolve the issue of water… ...
    7 days ago
  • Cabinet paper reveals weak case for Iraq deployment
    A heavily redacted copy of a Cabinet paper on New Zealand’s military deployment to Iraq reveals how weak the case is for military involvement in that conflict, says Labour’s Defence spokesperson Phil Goff.  The paper warns that given the failure… ...
    7 days ago
  • Malaysia’s booty is Kiwis’ lost homeownership dream
    It’s unsurprising the Auckland property market is so overheated when Malaysians are being told they can live large on Kiwi’s hard-earned rent money, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “A Malaysian property website lists nearly 4000 New Zealand houses and… ...
    7 days ago
  • Ministry’s food safety resources slashed to the bone
    The Ministry for Primary Industries’ failure to monitor toxic and illegal chemicals in red meat is a dereliction of duty, Labour’s Primary Industries and Food Safety spokesperson Damien O’Connor says. “MPI compliance officer Gary Orr today admitted National’s much-vaunted super… ...
    7 days ago
  • Ministry must protect organic food industry
    The Ministry for Primary Industries must take urgent action to protect New Zealand’s $150 million organic food and beverage industry by establishing a certification regime, Labour’s Primary Industries spokesperson Damien O’Connor says. “Despite working with Organics Aotearoa on the issue… ...
    1 week ago
  • Tony Abbott, indigenous rights, and refugees
    This week, Tony Abbott has visited Aotearoa New Zealand, bringing with him his racist policies against indigenous Australians and his appalling record on refugee detention camps. Abbott has launched a policy “to close” remote aboriginal communities, which is about as… ...
    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    1 week ago
  • PM’s housing outburst bizarre
    Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford has described the Prime Minister’s latest comments on the Auckland housing crisis as bizarre. “John Key is deep in denial. He must be one of the only people left who are not concerned about the risk… ...
    1 week ago
  • Deflation: Another economic headache linked to housing crisis
    National’s housing crisis is causing even further damage with the second consecutive quarter of deflation a genuine concern the Reserve Bank can do little about, as it focusses on Auckland house prices, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “This is… ...
    1 week ago
  • Pot calling the kettle black over fossil fuel subsidies.
    Over the weekend alongside nine other countries the New Zealand Government has endorsed a statement that supports eliminating inefficient subsidies on fossil fuels. Fossil fuel subsidies are a big driver of increasing emissions. Good on the Government for working internationally… ...
    GreensBy Gareth Hughes MP
    1 week ago
  • At last – a common sense plan for Christchurch
    The Common Sense Plan for Christchurch released by The People’s Choice today is a welcome relief from the shallow debate about rates rises versus asset sales, Labour’s Christchurch MPs say. "Local residents – who have spent weeks trawling through the… ...
    1 week ago
  • National must lead by example on climate change
    The National Government must meet its own climate change obligations before it preaches to the rest of the world, Labour's Climate Change spokesperson Megan Woods says. "Calls today by Climate Change Minister Tim Groser for an end to fossil fuel… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Biosecurity rethink a long time
    The Government has opened New Zealand’s borders to biosecurity risks and its rethinking of bag screening at airports is an admission of failure, Labour’s Primary Industries spokesperson Damien O’Connor says. Nathan Guy today announced a review of biosecurity systems in… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Chinese rail workers must be paid minimum wage
    KiwiRail must immediately stop further Chinese engineers from working here until they can guarantee they are being paid the New Zealand minimum wage, Labour’s MP for Hutt South Trevor Mallard says. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment today released… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Better consultation needed on Christchurch asset sales
    The Christchurch City Council (CCC) should be promoting wide and genuine public consultation on its draft ten year budget and plan given the serious implications for the city’s future of its proposed asset sales, outlined in the plan. Instead, it… ...
    GreensBy Eugenie Sage MP
    2 weeks ago
  • ‘Healthy Families’ a good start but not enough to tackle obesity relate...
    Today the Government is making a the meal out of the launch of its ‘Healthy Families’ package to promote ‘healthier decisions’ and ‘changing mindsets’ over nutrition, physical activity and obesity. Great! The programme is based on a successful model from… ...
    GreensBy Kevin Hague MP
    2 weeks ago
  • ‘Healthy Families’ a good start but not enough to tackle obesity relate...
    Today the Government is making a the meal out of the launch of its ‘Healthy Families’ package to promote ‘healthier decisions’ and ‘changing mindsets’ over nutrition, physical activity and obesity. Great! The programme is based on a successful model from… ...
    GreensBy Kevin Hague MP
    2 weeks ago
  • No more sweet talk on obesity
    The Government should be looking at broader measures to combat obesity rather than re-hashing pre-announced initiatives, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King says.  “While it is encouraging to see the Government finally waking from its slumber and restoring a focus on… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Government two-faced on zero-hour contracts
    The Government should look to ban zero-hour contracts in its own back yard before getting too high and mighty about other employers using them, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King says. “Information collated by Labour shows at least three district health… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Scrutiny of battlefield deaths should continue
    As New Zealand troops head to Iraq under a shroud of secrecy, the Government is pushing ahead with legislation to remove independent scrutiny of incidents where Kiwi soldiers are killed in hostile action overseas, Labour’s Defence spokesperson Phil Goff says.… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Damp-free homes a right for tenants
    Labour is urging tenants to use a little known rule which gives them the right to live in damp-free rental homes. Otago University researchers have today highlighted the Housing Improvement Regulations 1947 as a way tenants can force landlords to… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • National must take action on speculators
    The Government must take action on property speculators who are damaging the housing market and shutting families and young people out of the home ownership dream, Labour Leader Andrew Little says.  “There are a number of options the Government could… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Milk price halves: A $7b economic black hole
    Global milk prices have halved since the peak last year, creating an economic black hole of almost $7 billion that will suck in regions reliant on dairy, crucial industries and the Government’s books, says Labour’s Finance Spokesperson Grant Robertson. “The… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Kitchen plan set to swallow up health boards’ funds
    The financial impacts of implementing a proposal to outsource hospital food, forced on them by a crown-owned company which is now facing an auditor-general’s inquiry, are being felt by district health boards across the country, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Reserve Bank scathing of Government
    The Reserve Bank’s most scathing critique to date of National’s inability to handle the housing crisis shows the Bank is sick of having to pick up the pieces, Labour Leader Andrew Little says.  “John Key continues to deny there is… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Time for McDonald’s to upsize work hours
    Labour is calling on McDonald’s to have more respect for their workers and offer them more guaranteed work hours. McDonald’s is proposing to guarantee its workers 80 per cent of their rostered hours, Labour’s spokesperson for Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Brownlee misses the boat on asbestos
    Gerry Brownlee has once again missed an opportunity to improve the lives of Cantabrians post-earthquakes, Labour’s Canterbury Earthquake Recovery spokesperson Ruth Dyson says. A new report from the Royal Society of New Zealand and the Prime Minister’s Chief Science Adviser,… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Government must come clean on troop deployment and protections
    New Zealanders deserve more than to hear about their troops’ deployment overseas from Australian media, Opposition Leader Andrew Little says. “News from Australia that Kiwi troops are on their way to Iraq this week is another example of the culture… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Cancer prevention calls gain momentum
    Research showing bowel cancer treatment sucks up more public health dollars than other cancers once again highlights the need for a national screening programme, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King says. A study by Otago University, which found colon cancer is… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Burger King shows zero-hour contracts not needed
    The abandonment of zero-hour contracts by Burger King is further evidence good employers do not need to use them, Labour’s spokesperson on Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway says. "Congratulations to the Unite Union and Burger King for settling an employment agreement… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Kiwis deserve more than reheats
    The Government looks set to rely on regurgitated announcements for this year’s Budget if today’s speech is anything to go by, Labour Leader Andrew Little says. “National has been building up to this Budget for seven long years, promising a… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Landlords not cashing in on insulation schemes
    The fact so few landlords have taken up the generous taxpayer subsidy for retrofitting shows it is time to legislate minimum standards, says Labour’s Associate Housing spokesperson Poto Williams. “Many landlords aren’t using Government insulation schemes because they don’t want… ...
    2 weeks ago

Public service advertisements by The Standard

Current CO2 level in the atmosphere