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	<title>Comments on: Social Report shows Kiwis better off</title>
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	<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/</link>
	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
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		<title>By: Kevyn miller</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83454</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83454</guid>
		<description>Iprent, Generally I would agree with you. On this occassion the comment seems to be consistent with someone who used the NRSC&#039;s Road Safety Strategy 2010 Discussion Document as their source. That is very vague as to what the analysis of the improvements between &#039;87 and &#039;97 had actually revealed but it was rather clearly implied that most of those contributors had done their dash and couldn&#039;t make any further contribution and it was very clear about where any future improvement would have to come from - either better roads and better vehicles or a lower alcohol limit and tougher enforcement of alcohol and speed. Because our road toll is amongst the worst in the OECD there are a lot of cost effective methods available to reduce the toll by 75%. Then we hit the law of diminishing returns big time. Of course, if we actually had a government politicly brave enough to implement the NRSC&#039;s proposals over the next ten years despite the public opposition to paying the short-term price, we would hit that wall about the time that peak oil will be exerting it&#039;s full impact so we could rely on that to stop any traffic growth in the foreseeable future and thus maintain the road toll at less than 100 deaths and 1000 serious injuries. That&#039;s where the investment in roads and highways would keep paying a dividend for up to half a century. This is essentially a rural highway problem so we are not talking about something like congestion where huge spending today may be entirely redundant in twenty years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iprent, Generally I would agree with you. On this occassion the comment seems to be consistent with someone who used the NRSC&#8217;s Road Safety Strategy 2010 Discussion Document as their source. That is very vague as to what the analysis of the improvements between &#8217;87 and &#8217;97 had actually revealed but it was rather clearly implied that most of those contributors had done their dash and couldn&#8217;t make any further contribution and it was very clear about where any future improvement would have to come from &#8211; either better roads and better vehicles or a lower alcohol limit and tougher enforcement of alcohol and speed. Because our road toll is amongst the worst in the OECD there are a lot of cost effective methods available to reduce the toll by 75%. Then we hit the law of diminishing returns big time. Of course, if we actually had a government politicly brave enough to implement the NRSC&#8217;s proposals over the next ten years despite the public opposition to paying the short-term price, we would hit that wall about the time that peak oil will be exerting it&#8217;s full impact so we could rely on that to stop any traffic growth in the foreseeable future and thus maintain the road toll at less than 100 deaths and 1000 serious injuries. That&#8217;s where the investment in roads and highways would keep paying a dividend for up to half a century. This is essentially a rural highway problem so we are not talking about something like congestion where huge spending today may be entirely redundant in twenty years.</p>
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		<title>By: lprent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83315</link>
		<dc:creator>lprent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83315</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve played with quite a lot of stats over the years. That hardly surprises me. 

The main difference is between largely &#039;solved&#039; and developing problems. Developing problems usually have quite clear causations. 

Solved (actually in-progress) problems typically have had a large amount of work already done on them. So all of the easy fixes have been long done. The moderate fixes have pretty much been done. You&#039;re left with the bloody hard to quantify, really hard to justify, and a lot of little projects with lousy cost-benefits because of they are all experimental.

Essentially a variant of Pareto&#039;s law. Shows up in engineering, programming, and almost everything.

So if you were looking at where you toss money to solve health issues, you probably wouldn&#039;t toss it at roads. Ditto economic (after all wealth is created by people). 

I&#039;d love to see some cost/benefit comparison between improving a road and reducing obesity at present. This is just a little stir bearing in mind your interest areas. I can actually see the same thing in the electioneering data I&#039;m playing with at present (helping with peoples targeting) - the difference between mined (out) and virgin electorates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve played with quite a lot of stats over the years. That hardly surprises me. </p>
<p>The main difference is between largely &#8216;solved&#8217; and developing problems. Developing problems usually have quite clear causations. </p>
<p>Solved (actually in-progress) problems typically have had a large amount of work already done on them. So all of the easy fixes have been long done. The moderate fixes have pretty much been done. You&#8217;re left with the bloody hard to quantify, really hard to justify, and a lot of little projects with lousy cost-benefits because of they are all experimental.</p>
<p>Essentially a variant of Pareto&#8217;s law. Shows up in engineering, programming, and almost everything.</p>
<p>So if you were looking at where you toss money to solve health issues, you probably wouldn&#8217;t toss it at roads. Ditto economic (after all wealth is created by people). </p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to see some cost/benefit comparison between improving a road and reducing obesity at present. This is just a little stir bearing in mind your interest areas. I can actually see the same thing in the electioneering data I&#8217;m playing with at present (helping with peoples targeting) &#8211; the difference between mined (out) and virgin electorates.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83304</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 03:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83304</guid>
		<description>They should have added road congestion to the possible factors too - it&#039;s quite difficult to drive off a road at 110kph, when you&#039;re in the middle of a holiday weekend que doing 30.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They should have added road congestion to the possible factors too &#8211; it&#8217;s quite difficult to drive off a road at 110kph, when you&#8217;re in the middle of a holiday weekend que doing 30.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn miller</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83296</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 02:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83296</guid>
		<description>Iprent, I had a look at the obesity section too. But having jumped there from the road safety section it was startlingly different. Compare:

&quot;The major drivers of the increase in obesity rates have been changing dietary and physical activity patterns, reflecting an environment that promotes the over-consumption of energy-dense foods and drinks and limits the opportunities for physical activity.&quot;

and...

&quot;There is no conclusive evidence on the reasons for the reduction in road casualties since 1986. Better roads and better vehicles, as well as legislation, enforcement and education aimed at reducing road casualties, may all have contributed to an improvement in drivers&#039; attitudes and behaviour.&quot;

So, in an area where we have incredibly detailed and accurate statistics going back almost a century &quot;no conclusions can be drawn&quot;, but where the statistics are broad, imprecise and mostly post-WWII we can identify the main causes and sub-causes?

I&#039;ll have to read through the whole report now to see which of these contradictory positions is dominant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iprent, I had a look at the obesity section too. But having jumped there from the road safety section it was startlingly different. Compare:</p>
<p>&#8220;The major drivers of the increase in obesity rates have been changing dietary and physical activity patterns, reflecting an environment that promotes the over-consumption of energy-dense foods and drinks and limits the opportunities for physical activity.&#8221;</p>
<p>and&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;There is no conclusive evidence on the reasons for the reduction in road casualties since 1986. Better roads and better vehicles, as well as legislation, enforcement and education aimed at reducing road casualties, may all have contributed to an improvement in drivers&#8217; attitudes and behaviour.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, in an area where we have incredibly detailed and accurate statistics going back almost a century &#8220;no conclusions can be drawn&#8221;, but where the statistics are broad, imprecise and mostly post-WWII we can identify the main causes and sub-causes?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to read through the whole report now to see which of these contradictory positions is dominant.</p>
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		<title>By: The Standard 2.01: The Standard Week: August 22-29</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83278</link>
		<dc:creator>The Standard 2.01: The Standard Week: August 22-29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83278</guid>
		<description>[...] Social Report shows Kiwis better off For the first time since the Social Report started in 2001, the  figures show a reduction in income equality from a decade ago. The gap between rich and poor grew in the 1990s under National and has decreased under the Left-wing governments. Now, we have finally made up the ground lost under National&#8230;.[more] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Social Report shows Kiwis better off For the first time since the Social Report started in 2001, the  figures show a reduction in income equality from a decade ago. The gap between rich and poor grew in the 1990s under National and has decreased under the Left-wing governments. Now, we have finally made up the ground lost under National&#8230;.[more] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: imcheezy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83141</link>
		<dc:creator>imcheezy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83141</guid>
		<description>Gerry Brownlee is trying to solve this problem for the rest of us by graciously eating all the pies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerry Brownlee is trying to solve this problem for the rest of us by graciously eating all the pies.</p>
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		<title>By: lprent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83090</link>
		<dc:creator>lprent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83090</guid>
		<description>Man - I just had a look at the obesity issue. That is a real problem especially with the downstream costs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man &#8211; I just had a look at the obesity issue. That is a real problem especially with the downstream costs</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Pilott</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83080</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Pilott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83080</guid>
		<description>Sarah, isn&#039;t this a wonderful outcome for New Zealand - doesn&#039;t it mean so much more than a $100,000 donation to a minor party?  Or are you so shallow and specious that it didn&#039;t occur to you?  Methinks yes...  Same goes to Rob, without saying.

Hi Brett.  I&#039;m trying to make a decent living.  Have you got a point?  No?  Gee, what a surprise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah, isn&#8217;t this a wonderful outcome for New Zealand &#8211; doesn&#8217;t it mean so much more than a $100,000 donation to a minor party?  Or are you so shallow and specious that it didn&#8217;t occur to you?  Methinks yes&#8230;  Same goes to Rob, without saying.</p>
<p>Hi Brett.  I&#8217;m trying to make a decent living.  Have you got a point?  No?  Gee, what a surprise.</p>
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		<title>By: Anita</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83076</link>
		<dc:creator>Anita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83076</guid>
		<description>Brett Dale,

&lt;boggles&gt;&quot;tribe&quot;, &quot;girls&quot;&lt;/boggles&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brett Dale,</p>
<p>&lt;boggles&gt;&#8221;tribe&#8221;, &#8220;girls&#8221;&lt;/boggles&gt;</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Dale</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83074</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83074</guid>
		<description>Show this graph to anyone trying to make a decent living also  Perhaps if the country wants more Maori speakers, then on state sponsored visits to Marae&#039;, tell the local tribe , not to tell the girls to shut up and sit in the back, sexism is never good, even when its someone&#039;s culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Show this graph to anyone trying to make a decent living also  Perhaps if the country wants more Maori speakers, then on state sponsored visits to Marae&#8217;, tell the local tribe , not to tell the girls to shut up and sit in the back, sexism is never good, even when its someone&#8217;s culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Anita</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83070</link>
		<dc:creator>Anita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83070</guid>
		<description>Dom,

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Re: MÄori language proficiency&lt;/i&gt;

There are Scribe and they&#039;re pretty good, but the number of older Te Reo speakers dying over the past few years has clearly outstripping those becoming proficient in the language &lt;/blockquote&gt;

The report itself shows that the proportion of MÄori speakers in the MÄori population has decreased at every age groups between the 2001 and 2006 census.

Disappointing really :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dom,</p>
<blockquote><p><i>Re: MÄori language proficiency</i></p>
<p>There are Scribe and they&#8217;re pretty good, but the number of older Te Reo speakers dying over the past few years has clearly outstripping those becoming proficient in the language </p></blockquote>
<p>The report itself shows that the proportion of MÄori speakers in the MÄori population has decreased at every age groups between the 2001 and 2006 census.</p>
<p>Disappointing really <img src='http://thestandard.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: imcheezy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83062</link>
		<dc:creator>imcheezy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83062</guid>
		<description>Even the obesity measure isn&#039;t really that bad. More people can now afford to eat steak bernaise and play on their new Nintendo Wii, instead of keeping fit by going around burglarising houses and running away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even the obesity measure isn&#8217;t really that bad. More people can now afford to eat steak bernaise and play on their new Nintendo Wii, instead of keeping fit by going around burglarising houses and running away.</p>
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		<title>By: George Darroch</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83049</link>
		<dc:creator>George Darroch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83049</guid>
		<description>r0b, absolutely. It is no surprise that the world&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;happiest countries&lt;/a&gt; are the the worlds &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;most equal&lt;/a&gt;. They&#039;re almost all &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;very wealthy&lt;/a&gt;, but the strong social welfare models in these countries predate their income, not follow it.

A fascinating picture of New Zealand. It shows where we&#039;re doing well, and where we&#039;re failing. If you&#039;re a Pacific Island youth in South Auckland you&#039;re far more likely to be poor, lonely, and struggling. Things like this are just the kind of evidence based policy-making instruments we need, rather than Governments and oppositions bending to the idiots who populate talkback radio (and increasingly the internet). I hope sanity prevails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>r0b, absolutely. It is no surprise that the world&#8217;s <a href="http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5" rel="nofollow">happiest countries</a> are the the worlds <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality" rel="nofollow">most equal</a>. They&#8217;re almost all <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita" rel="nofollow">very wealthy</a>, but the strong social welfare models in these countries predate their income, not follow it.</p>
<p>A fascinating picture of New Zealand. It shows where we&#8217;re doing well, and where we&#8217;re failing. If you&#8217;re a Pacific Island youth in South Auckland you&#8217;re far more likely to be poor, lonely, and struggling. Things like this are just the kind of evidence based policy-making instruments we need, rather than Governments and oppositions bending to the idiots who populate talkback radio (and increasingly the internet). I hope sanity prevails.</p>
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		<title>By: Felix</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-83001</link>
		<dc:creator>Felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-83001</guid>
		<description>lprent: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;I second that. This comment could be construed as &quot;The commentator is a moron who writes before thinking&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

...&lt;i&gt;instead of&lt;/i&gt; thinking.

There you go, fixed that for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lprent: </p>
<blockquote><p>I second that. This comment could be construed as &#8220;The commentator is a moron who writes before thinking&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230;<i>instead of</i> thinking.</p>
<p>There you go, fixed that for you.</p>
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		<title>By: r0b</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/social-report-shows-kiwis-better-off/comment-page-1/#comment-82997</link>
		<dc:creator>r0b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2823#comment-82997</guid>
		<description>Stephen - I don&#039;t have time to chase the references, but there is plenty of research that shows that societies with less inequality are more stable, have less crime, have happier citizens etc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen &#8211; I don&#8217;t have time to chase the references, but there is plenty of research that shows that societies with less inequality are more stable, have less crime, have happier citizens etc&#8230;</p>
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