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Some good vision

Written By: - Date published: 8:07 am, April 30th, 2012 - 251 comments
Categories: Economy - Tags:

David Cunliffe delivered a solid speech yesterday in New Lynn laying out some good thoughts on the state of New Zealand.

In it he’s been very clear on what’s happened to New Zealand. in the last thirty years.

You hear the National government talking about the need to sell assets because we have so little money in this country. Do you know why we have so little money in this country? It’s because a large percentage of our economic assets are overseas-owned. For example, when the Australian-owned banks make billions in profits here (and it’s up a quarter to a third this year alone). That money isn’t returned to New Zealanders. The money goes straight back overseas.

Danyl’s got the whole speech over at the dimpost (apparently the only other place it’s been published is behind the facebook sign-in).

251 comments on “Some good vision”

  1. Carol 1

    Micky has put a link to the speech on a NewLynn website on open mike.

    And this is a repeat of part of a comment I just put on open mike:

    Inspirational stuff. Although, I’m unhappy about his continuing use of the term “growth”. Sustainable economics, that produce a society where everyone can not only survive, but have a reasonable life, should be the aim, IMO.

    And I like this metaphor:

    When the right-wing party says that it’s going to cut your leg off, voters want the left-wing party to say that it’s not going to cut your leg off. Voters don’t want to be told that the left-wing party is also going to cut your leg off, but cut it off a bit lower down and give you some anesthetic.

    And I like his attacks on “austerity” measures.

    And, to add to Cunliffe’s egs and arguments, the BBC reported a day or so ago, that, in these times of austerity, the rich have got richer.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17883101

  2. It is also up at the New Lynn Labour experimental website.  Feel free to have a look around and make a few comments.

  3. Bill 3

    Good to read that at least one Labour mp ‘get’s it’. Now if only he (and others within Labour) could move beyond conflating ‘community’ with ‘state’, we’d be on a road worth travelling.

    He says… (correctly)

    Left-wing generally means community ownership and or control and/or responsibility.

    But then goes on to say…

    New Zealanders wisely accepted that it was the government’s job to…(own and excercise control and/or a degree of responsibility)

    As I tried to express in a recent post, the only worthwhile project for a left wing government that could lay reasonable claim to being left wing is to decentralise political and economic power…give up the reigns of power and encourage communities (workplaces, those who use various services etc) to take them up and develop more direct and immediate democratic forms of control.

    Otherwise we get two results.

    Firstly, expensive, inefficient and generally self serving bureaucracies that no-one likes build up over time and secondly, future governments can always dismantle those government structures intended to manage assets and resources under state ownership on behalf of communities and ‘give it away’ to private individuals/concerns.

    • Bored 3.1

      Bill that is an entirely sensible approach. The Bassett local government reforms were a classic example of what you describe, it should be a total priority of the next Labour government to repeal these and get rid of the super cities etc.

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

        Undoing the agenda of the Right is insufficient. In the act of repealing Right Wing legislation Labour needs to lay down a clear and firm alternative view of the future…not just sparing the patient a tad by cutting the limb off a bit lower down.

        • Carol 3.1.1.1

          The supercity wasn’t a bad idea, but the undemocratic way it was structured is the problem. Also, spare a thought for the poor workers who have been through a big upheaval with the change. Yes, any changes should be well thought out and be looking to being in place for a long time into the future.

          • Bill 3.1.1.1.1

            Even if a ‘left’ inspired restructuring had taken place, the fundamental question of where real economic and political power lay, and where it would flourish and grow in the future would have to be asked. And I believe the answer would have shown power was to be vested in bureaucracies and not citizens. And that’s not any more satisfactory than power lying with individuals or entities acting from a market position. Either position leaves the citizenry, to a greater or lesser degree, swinging in the wind.

            • Bored 3.1.1.1.1.1

              On Local Bodies I would try to find a way to go back to the pre Bassett days which featured much more local smaller organisations with more representatives per citizen. When the citizen is only one step removed and lives just round the corner it is far harder for “power” to become faceless and hidden behind miror glass.

              • Bill

                Even where the territories of local bodies are smaller there is still a tendency for cliques or ‘old boys’ networks to develop. I can see this in my own locality (pop: about 3-4000) where various community trusts/incorporated societies… who have a fair amount of money and community assets at their disposal… have the same people from a fairly narrow demographic( in terms of age, background, income etc) in ‘executive’or ‘office bearer’ positions and any ordinary members of the societies or trusts tend to be from that same demographic or share the same [in this instance] socially conservative mind set.

                So yup, in my locality, everyone knows who everyone is. But it doesn’t get around problems associated with the excercise of power and the general disempowerment of the bulk of the population or the disconnect exhibited by those who control community monies and assets and the projects they pursue/concerns they elevate.

                I know trusts and societies are not quite the same as local bodies elected by the general populace, but the dynamics of power and the ‘gatekeeper’ mentality apply to both scenarios.

  4. just saying 4

    Politics is so interesting at the moment.
    Looks like there is the potential for another Alliance-type breakway party.
    Is Cunnliffe a die-hard social-conservative dinosaur dicator like Anderton was? Hope not.
    Could be good.

  5. Stephen Doyle 5

    The great thing about speeches like this is that it encourages proper debate about where we want our society to be, and how we are going to get there.

  6. Dr Terry 6

    Well, surely this is exactly the kind of stuff we want to hear from Labour at this moment – Cunliffe is about to become increasingly explicit. When I am critical of Shearer, please note that I am NOT “attacking” him personally, I am sure he is a fine person. Surely, though, we must be discerning about leadership styles and abilities, and on this score I think Cunliffe is a shining light. Moreover, I give Cunliffe high points for speaking loyally about the Leader (Shearer).

  7. Olwyn 7

    It is a very long time since I have felt so heartened by a speech by a politician. Great stuff, David Cunliffe – I only wish I had been there to hear it.

    • ad 7.1

      I understand there’s another speech coming up from David on the economy and the environment.

      It will naturally be a fine line positioning against both the Greens and National, but it has to be done. The media were pretty soft on any critique of the Green’s numbers in their election manifesto.

      But hopefully as the idea of an alternative government with Labour and the Greens in a really substantive partnership, the Greens will need to get sharper and sharper about exactly how much money they are going to have at their disposal potentially to get what they are seeking.

      So will Labour, of course, but they are used to that knid of scrutiny, even if Goff failed at it.

      If the environment is your thing, why not email Cunliffe your thoughts?

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1

        It will naturally be a fine line positioning against both the Greens and National, but it has to be done.

        Why does he have to position against both? If he was getting even close to reality he would be siding with the Greens and not against them.

        • ad 7.1.1.1

          That would be a political innovation worth watching. Email him and give him your thoughts on how it would happen.

        • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.2

          The Greens strategy for the future sustainability of the nation is approximately 5% less fail than Labour’s and perhaps 10% less fail than National.

          Setting them as the benchmark is not a good idea.

  8. Johnm 8

    Cunliffe is the defacto Leader of the Labour Party.

    My opinion the Labour Party has to stop pandering to the middle and openly move to the left, thereby showing the actual class divide that is now new Zealand. Shearer can go back to a corporate do-gooder role he really belongs in-maybe join Helen in the U.N.?

    • Te Reo Putake 8.1

      You do realise that at the last election Labour put up its most left leaning policies in decades and still got done over at the polls?
       
      The point is to get a balance of policy that motivates a broad swathe of people to vote for the party, not find some technically perfect left policy that excites the politically motivated, but leaves the electorate cold.

      • Uturn 8.1.1

        Then vote National. You seem to be arguing that the Left isn’t allowed to be the Left. The Right is allowed to say what it is; all the hate, all the misogynist, racist, bigotry. But if the Left utters a word of their origins, whoa boy, that’s just not done, too impolite.

        Anyway, it doesn’t matter in this context because Cunliffe just crossed the line. He is either now officially challenging Shearer or he has just betrayed the activists that have so much faith in him. How else can you interpret his “Labour now has a new leader” comments, in light of the final paragraph? Either he is calling for activists to back the Shearer people, whose intent is completely opposite to this (not even very “leftist”) speech and their outlook, or he is announcing his run at the job himself.

        Face facts, this speech contradicts the Shearer leadership speeches. Game on, or game over.

        • just saying 8.1.1.1

          When I read it I immediately contrasted it with David Parker yesterday.
          Same reaction. Cunliffe is miles away from the path being set by the current leadership. This is Cunliffe challenging the status quo.

        • Te Reo Putake 8.1.1.2

          P1ss off, U-turn. I’m arguing that the Labour party is part of the left, but it doesn’t have to be the left. Try and get your head around MMP, pal, we need a broad coalition and policies from at least three parties that have broad appeal. If you want idealogical purity, then the Alliance will be happy for you to waste your vote on them.
           
          As for your comments on Cunliffe, you’ve managed to miss the point of his speech completely. Well done, player. Nil points, insert more coins if you want to play again.

          • Olwyn 8.1.1.2.1

            The truth is, the orientation of this speech is actually quite centrist. To quote from it:

            “You know, there’s not much difference between a Wellington school teacher struggling to find an affordable home and a Northland freezing worker who’s just lost his job. Whether we earn our living by our hands or by our words, we’re all working people, whose lives have grown harder and whose world has grown steadily darker. We’re all in this together.”

            Centrism has recently become code for not seriously challenging the status quo; to feed into and on the prejudices cultivated by right wing propagandists. This speech manages to challenge the status quo while remaining broadly inclusive. What Cunliffe has done here is define a position. This places pressure on others in Labour to consider where they stand in relation to it. At the same time, it undermines attempts to sidestep revealing a position by making non-committal sympathetic noises. For that, I thank him.

            • just saying 8.1.1.2.1.1

              It certainly wasn’t radically left by any stretch of the imagination. But it was well to the left of the stated positions of Shearer, Parker, and Robertson.

              It puts me in mind of the article that saw Harawira kicked out of the Maori Party. I’m not saying that anything like that will happen with this speech. But if Cunliffe continues to contradict the official soundbites, as mealy-mouthed and deliberately obtuse as they usually are, eventually something is going to happen.

              This assumes that Cunliffe’s epiphany isn’t a stage-managed strategy to hold onto the left of Labour. But it’s hard to imagine the current leadership and strategists showing that kind of sophistication, and to imagine Cunliffe being happy to be the in-house maverick all the way to the next election.

              • ad

                There’s very little maverick about Cunliffe. He did a fairly long stint as a diplomat, and also as a business consultant.

                The point is to give the base something meaty to chew on, and do it regularly. Could we say that about Shearer’s positioning speeches?

                There needs to be at lest one person in Labour who can:
                - work well with business and be acceptable to many (not all) of them
                - and be sufficiently left to electrify the base
                - and also be clearly distinct from the Greens while being willing to work with them
                - and also be a clear break from the past in their ideology
                - and bring in donors ready for a party campaign again.
                - and command the media’s attention

                And cure hunger and stop airlines from crashing.

                This is one speech, but it’s the speech we’ve been waiting for.

                • just saying

                  I’m a bit confused. Are you saying you think this speech is part of a strategy (ordained by the leadership) to hold onto Labour’s base?

            • seeker 8.1.1.2.1.2

              Hear hear Olwyn!

            • darkhorse 8.1.1.2.1.3

              Actually heading towards the political centre is challenging the status quo.  That is where good old common sense and moral rectitude live and looking around politics at present that place is largely unoccupied.

        • TheContrarian 8.1.1.3

          “The Right is allowed to say what it is; all the hate, all the misogynist, racist, bigotry.”

          You do know the right does not have the monopoly on “all the hate, all the misogynist, racist, bigotry”.
          This black and white thinking completely incorrect and antithetical to reasoned political discourse.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2

        You do realise that at the last election Labour put up its most left leaning policies in decades and still got done over at the polls?

        That’s probably because those policies were still hard right.

      • Colonial Viper 8.1.3

        You do realise that at the last election Labour put up its most left leaning policies in decades and still got done over at the polls?

        Yep.

        The electorate guessed that Labour didn’t really mean what it said, its conviction was only skin deep, and that most of its caucus weren’t comfortable being that far Left.

        The electorate was correct, it seems.

      • Vicky32 8.1.4

        You do realise that at the last election Labour put up its most left leaning policies in decades and still got done over at the polls?

        True that! :)

    • Bored 8.2

      You may be right about de facto leader. He who leads the way in the dark whilst others sit still will be the one followed.

  9. vto 9

    Good stuff.

    Move heavily in this direction and quickish smartish and leave the Nats and their unthinking thinking floundering on the tidal shallows.

  10. Rosie 10

    Wow, awesome speech! If Labour really took the essence of this speech, its truth (epseically in regard to abandoning the neo liberal model) and its hope and held it as a core vision I would feel a lot of new found respect for them. It would mean my support for them as a voter would be meaningful.

    • ad 10.1

      If you liked the text, you will love the delivery as well. He has plenty of passion and rhetorical style, without that unfortuante habit from Goff of a vein throbbing on his temples like a migrane.

      The emotion I think can be missing from politics when it shouldn’t be – on the day there were plenty of sprinklings of words like “betrayed” and “sold out” in the delivered words when speaking of the last thirty years, particularly in the Q and A session afterwards. We all need that acknowledged.

      Make sure you are there for the next one. It’s going to keep electrifying the base, and at some point these kinds of these will be launched into broader audiences as well.

  11. DH 11

    I’m hopeful that Cunliffes recent form is part of Shearers leadership approach rather than a play at the leadership. As a democracy we don’t need or want a messiah character, we need good governance and a charismatic leader doesn’t automatically bring that. Indeed a smooth talking leader is usually good at talking and not much else, vis a vis Lange, Shipley and now Key.

    If Cunliffe is to be the finance minister of a Labour Govt then it should be Cunliffe doing all the talking about our economy. Same applies for all the other portfolios. A good leader knows how to delegate and that’s something Labour has been badly lacking in IMO.

    Some on the left have a strange attitude towards party leadership. The left are traditionally anti-monarchist yet many seem to want a new King or Queen to rule them.

    • Vicky32 11.1

      Some on the left have a strange attitude towards party leadership. The left are traditionally anti-monarchist yet many seem to want a new King or Queen to rule them.

      They also seem to want the King or Queen to be good at sound-bites!

  12. BLiP 12

    ” . . . We can move forward to a future that rewards hard work and stops rewarding dishonesty. That gives the poorest of our citizens the chance to a decent life. That gives us all a chance to live in a nation that was once called ‘God’s own country.”

    We can become God’s own country again . . . “

    إن شاء الله‎,

  13. Slap Shot 13

    Can someone explain how the profits “go overseas”?

    Presumably the profits that the New Zealand banks make are in New Zealand dollars (I don’t pay my mortgage in $AU)), which can only ultimately be spent in New Zealand. If they want to spend the profits in Australia, they’ll have to find someone with Australian dollars who wants to buy New Zealand goods, and so on.

    This doesn’t seem to be like the worries over the Crafar farms where products will be paid for in a foreign currency and shipped out of New Zealand with no expectation of anything coming back (excl. labour costs and suchlike, which will have to be paid in $NZ).

    I’m not an economist, but what Cunliffe is saying sounds quite odd to me. It’s as if someone was complaining about foreigners taking Whitcoulls vouchers out of NZ.

    Can anyone explain?

    • Bored 13.1

      Slap, are you taking the piss? If you are not aware that foreign dollar/ capitals that are allowed top buy / invest / operate in NZ dont repatriate their cash to somewhere else (Cayman Islands etc, anywhere with the least tax) then you should be placed in the stocks until you wise up. Why the hell else would they invest?

      • Colonial Viper 13.1.1

        It’s laughable isn’t it.

        Perhaps Slap Shot should learn what a “freely market convertible currency” is before he spouts off more shite.

      • Bill 13.1.2

        You guys could have just explained…answered the question that seemed to have genuinely asked, without the jibes. Making people feel stupid when they don’t know something, or can’t figure it, isn’t exactly helpful and only serves to ‘shut people down’ who might otherwise have learned something through asking a question. Getting off the high horse now.

        • Bored 13.1.2.1

          Good point Bill, I did ask the question whether Slap was taking the proverbial. If Slap was not my humblest apologies to Slap.

          • Colonial Viper 13.1.2.1.1

            Slap explained some of the currency dynamics of international trade yet somehow doesn’t know about the market convertibility of currencies?

            Not bloody likely.

      • Slap Shot 13.1.3

        That’s not answering my question. I’m perfectly aware that corporations use tax havens, and that is a reasonable argument for better tax laws pertaining to companies operating in New Zealand. That has nothing to do with foreign ownership per se.

    • DH 13.2

      It is a reasonable question. The counter argument is that the banks will need to sell $NZD to transfer their profits back to Aus and the ultimate buyer of the $NZD will eventually turn around & spend it back in NZ, meaning the money will still be spent here and not in Aus. Now that’s not necessarily how it goes, I’m thinking the cash may just end up circulating in the forex markets, but I’d be interested in a clear explanation myself so we can see the whole money trail.

      • Colonial Viper 13.2.1

        You’ve basically hit the nail on the head; most of the money which exists in the world is not being used for trade (only a tiny fraction of those NZD will be ‘spent’ back into the NZ real economy).

        Instead it is being hoarded and used to purchase financialised assets and trading instruments (stocks, bonds, derivatives, debt…)

        NZD are in demand as a safe haven and highly speculable (predictable) currency, which is the main reason our currency is so strong. Australian banks have no problems converting NZD to USD currently as the market is flooded with freshly printed USD.

      • Slap Shot 13.2.2

        Your counter argument was my original argument. It assumes freely convertible currencies. Hence my saying:

        “If they want to spend the profits in Australia, they’ll have to find someone with Australian dollars who wants to buy New Zealand goods, and so on.”.

        I don’t see why we should care if other people want to hold on to $NZ. The Americans have done well out of people holding their currency as a safe haven.

        Some of you appear to have lots of bluster, but no convincing answer to the actual question.

    • “Can someone explain how the profits “go overseas”?”

      Let us assume for a moment that some foreigners make a NZ$1 profit which they wish to take it back to, say, China. How do they do it? Clearly a New Zealand dollar isn’t worth anything in China so the Chinese holder of NZ currency will have to sell their NZ$1 to buy Yuan. But why would anyone want to buy said NZ$1? The only use for a NZ$s is to buy something made in NZ. Thus the buyer of the NZ$s must want it to buy a NZ export of some kind. What is Michael Fry’s problem with this? The NZ$1 doesn’t go overseas in any meaningful way, it gets spent on New Zealand produced goods and services no matter who gets the profits from the ownership of local firms. If a New Zealander gets the profits they spend them on New Zealand made goods and services, if a foreigners gets the profits they sell the NZ$s to someone who wants to buy New Zealand made goods and services.

      • KJT 13.3.1

        No. In most cases they sell NZ dollars to someone who wants to speculate in NZ dollars.

        • Paul Walker 13.3.1.1

          And just why would someone “speculate in NZ dollars”? Afterall we do have a floating exchange rate.

          • KJT 13.3.1.1.1

            Duh

            • McFlock 13.3.1.1.1.1

              yeah.
                  
              That’s about the only reasonable response to an economist who thinks that frequent changes in value based on supply and demand is a reason that people won’t speculate on a commodity’s future value.

              • “That’s about the only reasonable response to an economist who thinks that frequent changes in value based on supply and demand is a reason that people won’t speculate on a commodity’s future value.”

                But the very act of speculation would do away with the reason for the speculation. Let us assume you think that the dollar will fall in the future. Let us assume that the current price is NZ$1=US$1. You think it will go down to NZ$2=US$1, that is, US$s cost more in terms of NZ$s so the value of the NZ$ has fallen. So you sell NZ$ to buy US$s. But this forces down the value of the NZ$ so instead of buy US$s at NZ$1 you have to pay NZ$1.25, say, as you keep buying US$s the price goes up to, say, NZ$1.5, then $1.75 …. then NZ$2. So you end up paying NZ$2 for US$1 and thus have removed the very profit you were hoping to make. Now if lots of people agree with you then the rise in price of the US$ will happen basically at once and thus you will lose the profits even on intra-marginal trades.If the amount of trade is so small as to not move the exchange rate then the profits to be made are also small since obviously profits depend on the amount of US$s you hold. Thus making money from a floating exchange is harder than under fixed exchange rates.

    • darkhorse 13.4

      That would be all very fine if we were earning as many dollars overseas as we are spending but we are not and we have not for years. 
      Our income is our overseas earnings minus the profits and interest on foreign investment in NZ sent over seas. Our income doesn’t come close to our purchases overseas so we borrow and we borrow and we borrow. 
      Meantime people like John Key and his ilk play lotto with our currency (95% of all foreign currency transactions are for speculative purposes).  Our trade competitors do all sorts of things to make the playfield as un-level as they can and we as mugs have an open access policy to purchasing our assets – worse we give them away at a discount because we don’t realise how valuable they are. We are innocents in a nasty world – meanwhile those we trade with won’t let us buy theirs, they swindle us at every turn – and that is our best mates the Australians I am talking about there and the rest are worse.
      So no different than it is at household level – you can’t spend more than you earn for too long before you are dispossessed.  We are as a nation in the process of being dispossessed and we have leaders who are only interested in making a commission on the sale.

      • Paul Walker 13.4.1

        “That would be all very fine if we were earning as many dollars overseas as we are spending but we are not and we have not for years.”

        No. The point about profits “leaving NZ” is that they don’t , NZ money is worthless anywhere but NZ. NZ dollars are only useful in NZ and thus they can ultimately only be spent on NZ good and services. There simply is no other use for them.

        “Our income is our overseas earnings minus the profits and interest on foreign investment in NZ sent over seas.”

        Our real income – which is what matters – is the sum of the goods and services produced in NZ and foreign investment increases that and thus we are better off.

        • darkhorse 13.4.1.1

          I f that is the case why are we broke = as foreign investment is as high as it has ever been.

          You obviously have a pretty thin grasp of economics

          • Paul Walker 13.4.1.1.1

            “I f that is the case why are we broke = as foreign investment is as high as it has ever been.”

            Simple, we are not broke.

            “You obviously have a pretty thin grasp of economics”

            I’ve got 3 degrees in the subject, including a PhD. What about you?

            • darkhorse 13.4.1.1.1.1

              Two masters degrees if that makes you any less smug.

              Your’s must be from one of those mail order places going by your weird view of the effect of foreign ownership and capital on our domestic economy. Or do you work for one of those outfits profiting from selling our future and are blinded by your own greed.  

              I wrote this one with you in mind
              http://howdaft.blogspot.co.nz/2011/08/quack-science.html

              I challenge you to name one good foreign investment that has added great value to the NZ economy. 

              Most of it you will find to be either vertical integration, anticompetitive stuff, or some of our “freetrade’ partners who can make more money exporting to their home markets than a NZ owned business because the Kiwis don’t have the “home advantage”.  Nonme of these add much to NZ’s wellbeing.  

              Much of the rest is likely to be ill gotten gains being hidden in real assets in NZ. Dotcom is your idol no doubt – just like he was for that twit John Banks.

              • “Two masters degrees if that makes you any less smug.”

                Neither of which is in economics obviously.

                “Your’s must be from one of those mail order places”

                As far as I know the University of Canterbury doesn’t do mail order. Lord Rutherford seemed to do ok with a degree from there so I guess the Uni can’t be all bad.

                “going by your weird view of the effect of foreign ownership and capital on our domestic economy. Or do you work for one of those outfits profiting from selling our future and are blinded by your own greed.”

                My views on foreign ownership and capital are pretty standard views in economics.

                • Lord Rutherford seemed to do ok with a degree from there…
                  Are all your comments this factual? Rutherford’s undergrad degree was from the University of New Zealand.

                  • “Rutherford’s undergrad degree was from the University of New Zealand.”

                    Studied for at Canterbury University College which is now called the University of Canterbury. Given that the University of New Zealand was New Zealand’s sole degree-granting university from 1874 to 1961 formally all degrees in NZ over that period would be from there.

                    • “Studied for at Canterbury University College which is now called the University of Canterbury.”

                      That should read

                      Studied for at Canterbury College which is now called the University of Canterbury.

                      It was only in 1933 that Canterbury College became Canterbury University College.

                    • darkhorse

                      Rutherford got his primary education at Riwaka I gather a school with six other kids -I wonder how many other nuclear physicists came from Riwaka – (or any other type of genius for that matter) if some higher intellectual status is conferred by attending the same institution as him surely there should be some anomalous population of geniuses living in the hills between Nelson and Blenheim.  

                • McFlock

                  As far as I know the University of Canterbury doesn’t do mail order. Lord Rutherford seemed to do ok with a degree from there so I guess the Uni can’t be all bad.

                  He obviously didn’t study economics there.

                  • Gosman

                    Simply because he is articulating economic truths which you find unpalatable is hardly reason to diss his qualifications.

                    • McFlock

                      Simply because he follows the same religious obsession that you do is no reason to suck his cock.

                    • Gosman

                      You might like to define studying market fundamentals as a religious obsession. I prefer to term it a legitimate academic pursuit.

                      Regardless of the personal attacks you make doesn’t detract from the fact that your views on the subject don’t seem to reflect the reality of what actually happens and you don’t seem to be able to explain this in any coherent manner.

                    • McFlock

                      Gos,
                             
                      Economics in general, especially what you refer to as “market fundamentals”, are neither demonstrable nor repeatable. So it’s damn sure not what one would call a science. Given, however, that it insists on making bold claims about what will happen based on the non-demonstrable and unrepeatable theories about economic mechanisms, and given that these predictions almost always result in being untrue unless the definition of “accuracy” is made insanely wide, and given intense your faith in this non-demonstrable, unrepeatable, unreliable discipline, then yeah, it is essentially a “religion”. 

                    • “Economics in general, especially what you refer to as “market fundamentals”, are neither demonstrable nor repeatable. So it’s damn sure not what one would call a science. Given, however, that it insists on making bold claims about what will happen based on the non-demonstrable and unrepeatable theories about economic mechanisms, and given that these predictions almost always result in being untrue unless the definition of “accuracy” is made insanely wide, and given intense your faith in this non-demonstrable, unrepeatable, unreliable discipline, then yeah, it is essentially a “religion.”

                      I’m not sure what you think the “non-demonstrable and unrepeatable theories”. Can you give some explanation and examples?

                      I would add that empirical work is a common, if not the most common, part of economics as carried out today. Just look at any of the major economics journal, the all carry empirical work. Also I would had that you should consider looking at the amount of experimental work being on today. Such experiments are indeed repeatable. That is one of the advantages of experiments. Canterbury has formed the New Zealand Experimental Economics Laboratory to further work in this area.

                      So can you explain exactly what is “non-demonstrable, unrepeatable, unreliable” about economics.

                    • McFlock

                      Every theory on economics is unrepeatable and undemonstrable, simply because whenever the economy screws up someone like Gos comes and says “well, they should have done X” or “I know you think they did X, but the X they did suddenly fails to meet the criteria I define for X”. 
                           
                      Oh, it’s an industry, I grant you. But it’s bullshit.  Let’s compare economics with physics – hypothesis, repeated demonstrations by experiment, adjustment of the model, validation of the theory within known and defined parameters, application of the theory in the real world.
                             
                      Economics: constantly changing parameters, large-scale applications frequently fall down, and the latest theory is hailed as brilliant until the next bubble bursts.
                         
                      If the wings fell off aircraft as frequently as people are screwed by economic management, air travel would be banned as being too unsafe. 
                           
                      If the Metservice was as inaccurate as treasury forecasts, they’d be predicting golden weather whenever national was in power and floods and lightening under Labour. 

                    • Gosman

                      Hang on here. You are creating a giant strawman to knock down. Where is your evidence that people are changing the goalposts all the time in relation to Economics?

                      An example of where economic theory provides an explanation for our current situation is the increase in youth unemployment. That is exactly what you would expect from the removal of the youth minimum wage. Now whether the increase can be entirely attributed to the change in policy is obviously harder to define but the theory is sound.

                      Where problems occur is when complex relationships are not fully understood. Hence the Tax changes in 2010 were designed to be fiscally neutral but because of various other factors, have not been (i.e. consumption fell more than anticipated). It is harder to argue that they weren’t designed to be fiscally neutral though.

                      Economics is far more like Climatology than weather forecasting. We are aware that increased CO2 levels are associated with increased global temperatures yet forecasting excatly what the change is going to be is difficult. That is the same with Economics. Increasing labour market rigidities will tend to increase unemployment but by how much is not usually clear.

                    • McFlock

                      Gos, you are the perfect example of someone who frequently asserts that their “solutions” should be followed even though there is absolutely no empirical evidence that they will work. Particularly when people start criticizing “neoliberal” governments.
                                 
                             
                      And consensus on climatology is still lightyears ahead of economics.  

                  • “He obviously didn’t study economics there.”

                    At the time I don’t think he could. James High was the first professor of History and Economics and he didn’t take up the position till after Rutherford had left.

                  • “Every theory on economics is Every theory on economics is unrepeatable and undemonstrable,,”

                    Can you give some examples? What makes a given theory “unrepeatable and undemonstrable”? How does the empirical work in economics fit into your to “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” view? What are we to make of the experimental economics? Are these experiments and the empirical work “unrepeatable and undemonstrable”? If so why.

                    • McFlock

                      Can you give some examples?

                      Housing bubbles. Government debt problems.
                      If economics were a science, these would not occur, or be controversial.

                      What makes a given theory “unrepeatable and undemonstrable”?
                      The fact that it is impossible to ensure all contributing parameters occur or are accounted for when the theory is applied in the real world.   

                      How does the empirical work in economics fit into your to “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” view?
                      Retrospective pattern-matching based on the observers’ bias.

                      What are we to make of the experimental economics?
                      It’s a joke. Throw me a couple of examples and I’ll tell you why.

                      Are these experiments and the empirical work “unrepeatable and undemonstrable”? If so why.

                    • “Can you give some examples?

                      Housing bubbles. Government debt problems.”

                      How do these things show that “Every theory on economics is unrepeatable and undemonstrable” What exactly about these things makes economics unrepeatable and undemonstrable? Just saying “Housing bubbles. Government debt problems” doesn’t show anything.

                      “If economics were a science, these would not occur, or be controversial.”

                      Now this is just crap. Its like saying if medicine was a science there would be no sickness. In every subject, science and non-science, there are things experts don’t know or disagree on.

                      “What makes a given theory “unrepeatable and undemonstrable”?
                      The fact that it is impossible to ensure all contributing parameters occur or are accounted for when the theory is applied in the real world.”

                      Really? Ok show with an example of, say, an empirical paper on housing bubbles how all parameters are not accounted or.

                      “How does the empirical work in economics fit into your to “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” view?
                      Retrospective pattern-matching based on the observers’ bias.”

                      And you do realise that in experiments, or example, the experimental design is such that biases are controlled for. This is one advantage of experiments, you can control for confounding factors.

                      “What are we to make of the experimental economics?
                      It’s a joke. Throw me a couple of examples and I’ll tell you why.”

                      Give you a couple of examples?! You know it’s a joke, so you must have lots of examples that YOU can give to show this.

                      Also how does behavioural economics fit into your “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” world? Its all about looking at how people make decisions and the systematic errors they make. And what of neuroeconomics? It seeks to explain human decision making, the ability to process multiple alternatives and to choose an optimal course of action. It studies how economic behaviour can shape our understanding of the brain, and how neuroscientific discoveries can constrain and guide models of economics.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      Can you give some examples?
                       Housing bubbles. Government debt problems.”
                       
                      How do these things show that “Every theory on economics is unrepeatable and undemonstrable” What exactly about these things makes economics unrepeatable and undemonstrable? Just saying “Housing bubbles. Government debt problems” doesn’t show anything.

                       
                      Each and every one is an example that economists don’t know half as much as they think they do. You asked for examples.
                       
                       

                      “If economics were a science, these would not occur, or be controversial.”
                       
                      Now this is just crap. Its like saying if medicine was a science there would be no sickness. In every subject, science and non-science, there are things experts don’t know or disagree on.

                      Nope.
                      It’s like saying that if medecine was a science there would be disagreement at the edges of knowlege, which is then resolved by experimentation where all factors can be replicated by other experimenters, and case:control studies that are repeatable (and repeated), and consensus about how to measure population factors and a clear pregressions from the individual case to the population picture.
                           
                      Feel free to show that economics has those factors. I’ve never seen them – but I’ve seen a lot of people applying slide-rules to comples systems and predending their predictions are based on logic.
                       

                      “What makes a given theory “unrepeatable and undemonstrable”?
                      The fact that it is impossible to ensure all contributing parameters occur or are accounted for when the theory is applied in the real world.”
                       
                      Really? Ok show with an example of, say, an empirical paper on housing bubbles how all parameters are not accounted or.

                       Nope. Even if I bothered, you’d say I was cherry-picking. And yeah, I’m obviousy biased, so I might be.
                          
                      But if economics were a science and you have a phd in it, surey you could cite a single paper that has no scientific shortcomings whatsoever.
                       

                      “How does the empirical work in economics fit into your to “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” view?
                      Retrospective pattern-matching based on the observers’ bias.”
                       
                      And you do realise that in experiments, or example, the experimental design is such that biases are controlled for. This is one advantage of experiments, you can control for confounding factors.

                       
                      Sure. Example?
                       

                      “What are we to make of the experimental economics?
                      It’s a joke. Throw me a couple of examples and I’ll tell you why.”
                       Give you a couple of examples?! You know it’s a joke, so you must have lots of examples that YOU can give to show this.

                      See above.

                      Also how does behavioural economics fit into your “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” world? Its all about looking at how people make decisions and the systematic errors they make. And what of neuroeconomics? It seeks to explain human decision making, the ability to process multiple alternatives and to choose an optimal course of action. It studies how economic behaviour can shape our understanding of the brain, and how neuroscientific discoveries can constrain and guide models of economics.

                       
                       Lovely. Gizza glimpse – I’m basing my judgement on the real-world applications of economics, particularly in NZ over the last 40 years.
                       
                       

                       
                    • darkhorse

                      For the simple reason that economics is an attempt to predict or find patterns (rules0 in the consequences of humans pursuing self interested ends mixed with human fear of being scared to do anything too risky all mixed with the rather random complexities of the whole of society.  

                      It is actually an attempt at the impossible because what it is describing is essentially chaotic.  The point where economics left the rails was when it moved from a philosophical art (Adam Smith and Karl Marx’s territory – the great thinkers) to being a pseudo-science. When it shifted from explaining to predicting.

                      Anyone trying to predict where the world will head next is kidding themselves or suffering from terminal conceit and to think that it will head there according to some infallible rule is beyond delusional.  

                    • It is actually an attempt at the impossible because what it is describing is essentially chaotic. The point where economics left the rails was when it moved from a philosophical art (Adam Smith and Karl Marx’s territory – the great thinkers) to being a pseudo-science. When it shifted from explaining to predicting.
                      There are some nice parallels between predicting the climate and weather, and economics as a *cough cough* science. Currently economists can have a hack at the long term general trends, in the same vein that it can be predicted that summer will be warm, winter cool, spring changeable etc. However at that level, it’s hardly a subject worthy of a PhD.
                      Thing is, weather and climate forecasts rely on physical systems that are non-sentient and although they may be non-linear, are predictable within identifiable bounds. Identifying unusual or extreme events, especially more than a week or two out, is difficult.
                      Markets are much more chaotic.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      The financial markets appear chaotic. But they are heavily manipulated now, and real chaos it definitely is not.

                      http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-17-26/84-all-stock-trades-are-high-frequency-computers-%E2%80%A6-only-16-are-done-human-tra

              • “I wrote this one with you in mind
                http://howdaft.blogspot.co.nz/2011/08/quack-science.html

                Hang on, you wrote something in August last year with me in mind?! Now that is what I call perfect foresight.

                • darkhorse

                  A you are a twit – and putting yourself up against Lord Rutherford only suggests you suffer from a wider range of delusions than your posts initially indicated – you are a hair splitter not an atom splitter

                  and unfortunately there are a lot of you around (economists I think they call them) so it didn’t need a lot of foresight to see that I would encounter your drivel some day – there is so much of it out there.  Not an orignal thought to your name.

                • darkhorse

                  PS I didn’t see that list of exemplars of the benefits of foreign ownership anywhere in your response – can’t think of any?  Is that the problem?

            • KJT 13.4.1.1.1.2

              You should ask for your tuition fees back.

            • Colonial Viper 13.4.1.1.1.3

              I’ve got 3 degrees in the subject, including a PhD. What about you?

              I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry. Either you got them from boxes of cornflakes (and I do not mean the Kellogg School of Management), or you are completely and professionally indoctrinated into the wrong-headed pseudo-science of economics.

        • McFlock 13.4.1.2

          More to the point, if profits don’t go overseas then why do overseas investors bother investing in NZ companies?
               
          At best the “profits stay in NZ” argument is reduced to the idea that profits made in NZ are exported via changes in relative exchange rates and thereby distorting the international purchasing power of real people. So the NZ dollar value *might* stay in NZ (and I’m not so sure of that, having just bought a phone app via credit card), but we still feel the effects of lower local demand because we can’t buy as much.

          • Paul Walker 13.4.1.2.1

            “More to the point, if profits don’t go overseas then why do overseas investors bother investing in NZ companies?”

            Follow the story I told, foreign investors will sell their NZ$s to get their local currency. They will have increased holdings of their local currency.

            “At best the “profits stay in NZ” argument is reduced to the idea that profits made in NZ are exported via changes in relative exchange rates and thereby distorting the international purchasing power of real people.”

            A large sell off of NZ$s would force the exchange rate down, that is, it would reduce the price of NZ$s or increase the price of foreign $s

            So the NZ dollar value *might* stay in NZ (and I’m not so sure of that, having just bought a phone app via credit card), but we still feel the effects of lower local demand because we can’t buy as much.

            By using your credit card you have in effect sold NZ$s, but my point is that someone, somewhere will have bought those dollars. Using the credit card just make the transaction less transparent.

            • McFlock 13.4.1.2.1.1

              Point being that the “profits” (as an abstract ball of value) do go overseas, even if the actual dollars come back.
                  
              Someone who argues that profits don’t really go overseas is essentially arguing that the entire principle of the profit motive cannot apply to investment of capital.

              • A $1 of profit doesn’t go overseas in any meaningful way, it gets spent on New Zealand produced goods and services no matter who gets the profits from the ownership of local firms. If a New Zealander gets the profits they spend them on New Zealand made goods and services, if a foreigners gets the profits they sell the NZ$s to someone who wants to buy New Zealand made goods and services. So the $1 get spent on NZ stuff no matter who gets it and thus is not lost to NZ.

                • McFlock

                  But the NZ$1 doesn’t have the same value as before, does it?
                     
                  The profits still go overseas, the mechanism just happens to be exchange rate fluctuations rather than physically shipping bags of cash overseas.

                  • “But the NZ$1 doesn’t have the same value as before, does it?”

                    Yes it does. (assume inflation in NZ is zero) It is one NZ$. If a New Zealander gets the profits from a firm they spend them on New Zealand made goods and services, if a foreigners gets the profits they sell the NZ$s to someone who wants to buy New Zealand made goods and services. In each case one NZ$ is spent on New Zealand good and services. What will change is the amount a foreigner has to pay to get the NZS. But given he buys the S1 he has this to spend on goods from New Zealand and the exchange rate will adjust to ensure that supply = demand for foreign exchange in the same way it does or all goods and services.

                    • McFlock

                      What will change is the amount a foreigner has to pay to get the NZS.

                       
                      And the amount of NZ$ a New Zealander has to pay to import goods or services. And the cost of debt our beloved leader likes to accrue in our name. And so on.
                         
                      Saying an NZ$ will always be worth 1 NZ$ is trite – as a means of exchange its value is in what you can buy with it.

                  • “Saying an NZ$ will always be worth 1 NZ$ is trite – as a means of exchange its value is in what you can buy with it.”

                    Which is why I said assume inflation to be zero, I was holding the purchasing power of the NZ dollar in NZ constraint.

                    • Gosman

                      Paul, the left don’t really understand how international trade works. They keep thinking NZ dollars are somehow shipped offshore and stashed under a bed or something. That can’t grasp that the NZ money people earn here has to be converted into other currencies to be spent on goods and services in those places.

                    • felix

                      Gosman if you read the discussion you’d know that I’m not saying anything of the sort. But don’t let that stop you pretending I am.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Gossie you’re funny mate, supporting a guy whose theories are totally wrong headed.

                    • Gosman

                      That’s good felic, I was more meaning stipi comments like this one from McChuck

                      ‘The profits still go overseas, the mechanism just happens to be exchange rate fluctuations rather than physically shipping bags of cash overseas.’

                    • McFlock

                      Which is why I said assume inflation to be zero, I was holding the purchasing power of the NZ dollar in NZ constraint.

                       
                      Which certainly wouldn’t apply to imported goods if a whole bunch of foreign owners were trying to offload their NZ$.

        • Colonial Viper 13.4.1.3

          No. The point about profits “leaving NZ” is that they don’t , NZ money is worthless anywhere but NZ. NZ dollars are only useful in NZ and thus they can ultimately only be spent on NZ good and services. There simply is no other use for them.

          What a fucking moron.

          The NZ dollar is a fully convertible currency. Which means that the couple of hundred billion NZ dollars in the money supply now can be exchanged easily, immediately, and freely for other currencies (eg euros, yen and USD) without ever needing to be spent in NZ.

          For a highly qualified PhD, you sure are dumb.

          • darkhorse 13.4.1.3.1

            CV your are most efficiently succinct in your summation of Paul’s analytical skills.  Unfortunately Paul’s syndrome is more complex than that and it is one that plagues the whole world = indeed it is at the root of most of our problems.  In Muslim countries Paul would be strapping 10kg of explosives to his body and heading to the local market place to destroy a few innocents in the unshakeable belief that he would be with allah and his own ration of virgins in reward for his zealotry.  You see he is a Dogmatist not a thinker.  Dogmatists find it very easy to get PhD’s because they are very capable at rote learning and reciting mantras – now thinking that is another matter.  It is a lesson I have learnt from long years of dealing with the over qualified is that thinking and learning are entirely different intellectual traits and one seems often to preclude the other (If they didn’t there wouldn’t be any economists as any thinking mind could see the claptrap that economic theory mostly is).  Bill English is a great example of something that can learn but not think – seen an original idea in that head in the last while?

            What you will find in arguing with Paul is that you are actually arguing with something that is nothing more than a highly trained parrot.  Not an original through in its head and not the wit to question its own belief system.   As with a conversation with a parrot no useful progress or development of intellectual concepts will occur.

            He must also have a mirror in his cage because he is obviously loves admiring himself.  Im Polly I’ve got A PHD Polly want a cracker.

            • Colonial Viper 13.4.1.3.1.1

              I finally see what you mean. A highly trained parrot? Nah perhaps just a mediocre one.

              • darkhorse

                I’d agree – if I had a parrot that tedious I would have it stuffed and mounted – save on feed and not have to endure the irritation of its monotonous blather 

          • Paul Walker 13.4.1.3.2

            CV You are right the NZ dollar is a fully convertible currency but I have noted this fact from the start. For someone to sell a NZ$1 someone must buy that $1 and what use is the dollar to the buyer? The NZ$ is of no use outside New Zealand so if someone is buying they must want the dollar to buy NZ made goods and services. That is the only thing NZ$ are good for.

            • felix 13.4.1.3.2.1

              “That is the only thing NZ$ are good for.”

              Not so. I regularly spend NZ$ in NZ on goods and services produced elsewhere, owned by people and companies from elsewhere.

              • Yes but the point is you are buying those goods in NZ and thus NZ$s are used. Whoever bought the goods into NZ will have had to pay the seller of them in their local currency, eg Aus$, US$ etc.

                • felix

                  So what?

                  The fact that the currency used is NZ$ has no bearing whatsoever on whether they’re spent on NZ produced goods and services or not.

                  • But it has a bearing on the fact that the transaction must take place in NZ or be of a good make in NZ. A trancation involving a foriegn made good in NZ will still show up in our GDP figures. Thus the NZ$s are not lost to the NZ economy, they do not “go overseas”, which is the point I made in the first place..

                    • felix

                      No, you said the profits don’t go overseas.

                      You’re correct that in an entirely meaningless sense the actual dollars can’t technically “leave NZ” but that’s moot.

                      What matters in the sense of the argument about “profits going overseas” is the question of who controls our economy, i.e. who is in a position to make decisions that affect our choices, our businesses, our assets, our wealth, our resources, and our lives.

                    • “No, you said the profits don’t go overseas.”

                      And they don’t. Profits don’t go overseas in any meaningful way, they get spent in New Zealand or on New Zealand produced goods and services no matter who gets the profits from the ownership of local firms.

                      Who controls the assets here in NZ is another question. What we want is for those assets to be in the hands of whoever will use them most efficiently. If that is a foreigner, so be it.

                    • McFlock

                      Oi vey.
                      The profits do go overseas.
                      The NZ$ don’t.
                              
                      But the capital that would have been reinvested in the economy had the profits stayed in NZ would have also showed up in GDP (crude measure though it is) in subsequent years, rather than just in the year the profits were taken.

                    • “But the capital that would have been reinvested in the economy had the profits stayed in NZ would have also showed up in GDP (crude measure though it is) in subsequent years, rather than just in the year the profits were taken.”

                      May be not. What is to stop a New Zealander from taking the profits and investing them overseas or just consuming them? If a foreign investor can find a better investment overseas to use the profits on, why can’t a New Zealand investor do the same thing? If reinvesting the profits in New Zealand is the best option for the New Zealander, why isn’t it the best option for a foreign investor? Given the international nature of investment markets who gets the profits won’t matter for how they are used.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      Because NZ investors have greater knowledge about NZ markets than overseas investors.
                            
                      Because it’s easier to monitor an investment when you know what it is.
                         
                      Because people have an inherent bias towards what they know.
                           
                      Because NZ investors (because they want to be paid in NZ$) are less likely to view exchange rate fluctuations as a barrier to investments in NZ.
                         
                      Because only a small portion of the global population are international investors.
                       

                       
                    • “Because NZ investors have greater knowledge about NZ markets than overseas investors.

                      Because it’s easier to monitor an investment when you know what it is.”

                      Asymmetric information could be a factor but if you are a big investor making a big investment you have a big incentive to learn about local conditions and issues. Also asymmetric information could go the other way. An international company could know more about a business given its experience overseas.

                      “Because people have an inherent bias towards what they know.”

                      Yes, in fact this is basically the point Adam Smith made when he was talking about the “invisible hand”. But see my point above about international firms knowing more about some business.

                      “Because NZ investors (because they want to be paid in NZ$) are less likely to view exchange rate fluctuations as a barrier to investments in NZ.”

                      Exchange rate risk will have to be factored into any investment decision. Whether this is enough to stop an investment would have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

                      “Because only a small portion of the global population are international investors.”

                      But for this discussion they are the important group.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Paul Walker – people do not trade currencies any more. High frequency algorithm systems do. And they don’t care in the least about learning “local issues”.

                    • McFlock

                      Asymmetric information could be a factor but if you are a big investor making a big investment you have a big incentive to learn about local conditions and issues. Also asymmetric information could go the other way. An international company could know more about a business given its experience overseas.

                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      Just to recap, we seemed to have moved away from the debate as to whether “profits go overseas”, now we’re discussing whether it matters?

                    • felix

                      “What we want is for those assets to be in the hands of whoever will use them most efficiently. If that is a foreigner, so be it.”

                      Wrong, that’s what you want.

                      What I want is for us to have as much control over decisions that affect us as possible.

                    • “Just to recap, we seemed to have moved away from the debate as to whether “profits go overseas”, now we’re discussing whether it matters?”

                      I was just trying to answer the points you raised. But to recap: profits don’t go overseas and it doesn’t matter that foreigners own assets in NZ, anymore than it matter that NZers own assets overseas.

                    • McFlock

                      Well, you brought up GDP.
                        
                      Question – if profits don’t go overseas, how do overseas investors make a profit from their NZ investments?
                       

                    • “Question – if profits don’t go overseas, how do overseas investors make a profit from their NZ investments?”

                      How do overseas investors make a profit? The same way as NZ investors, by having revenues greater than costs. As I have noted somewhere above foreigners will hold greater amounts of their local currency. They have to sell the NZ$s since they are of no use to them. But to sell them someone has to buy them and its this fact that counts. People do not buy NZ$s just for fun. This is what I have been saying all alone: “Let us assume for a moment that some foreigners make a NZ$1 profit which they wish to take it back to, say, China. How do they do it? Clearly a New Zealand dollar isn’t worth anything in China so the Chinese holder of NZ currency will have to sell their NZ$1 to buy Yuan. But why would anyone want to buy said NZ$1? The only use for a NZ$s is to buy something made in NZ. Thus the buyer of the NZ$s must want it to buy a NZ export of some kind. The NZ$1 doesn’t go overseas in any meaningful way, it gets spent on New Zealand produced goods and services no matter who gets the profits from the ownership of local firms. If a New Zealander gets the profits they spend them on New Zealand made goods and services, if a foreigners gets the profits they sell the NZ$s to someone who wants to buy New Zealand made goods and services.”

                      That is to say that the NZ economy doesn’t lose the dollar, it ends up being spent in NZ or on NZ goods. Unless of course the foreigners just burn the NZ$s they have. But even here this would help NZ since it would reduce the money supply by a little and thus be anti-inflationary!

                    • Gosman

                      I’m surprised you are bothering to renter the debate about exchange rate McFluck considering how you embarrassed yorself last time trying to argue that rectifying an overvalued exchange rate hurt NZ importers. You really are a glutton for punishment.

                    • felix

                      Paul, money is power in a very real sense. It’s the power to make decisions.

                      Do you disagree?

                    • McFlock

                      Gos, you were on serious drugs that day. Go back and read the discussion again, and see whether what you read was the same as what had been written down.

                      [edit]P.S. you must be seriously pissed that you turned up so late to begin trolling. Catch your own gaze in the mirror and got trapped for a couple of days, did you?

                    • Gosman

                      Come on McChuck. You jumped into a dicussion about the so called damage to the NZ economy that betting against an overvalued currency caused. You leaped from one position saying the overvalued dollar caused NZ exporters harm to stating that devaluing it caused NZ importers harm. You took two contradictory postions in the space of about three posts and and you accuse me of being on drugs. It is quite clear you don’t have much of a grasp about basic market fundamentals. Stick with your statistics.

                    • McFlock

                      Paul,
                          
                      You are consistently restricting “profit” to mean the currency of payment, rather than the capital taken by the owners.
                      Odd interpretation.
                           
                      Secondly, if currency to equal international value were autommatically returned to NZ after the overseas investors converted their NZ$, government and private debt would not be a problem for an economy.
                       

                    • McFlock

                      Gos, these little snapshots into your warped perspective and soulless, self obsessed ego are fascinating, but grownups are talking.

                    • McFlock

                      “You are consistently restricting “profit” to mean the currency of payment, rather than the capital taken by the owners.
                      Odd interpretation.”

                      Let me be clear what I mean by profit: it is the difference between revenue and costs. This is the standard definition used by accountants and economics. They do however differ in the way they think about costs.

                      “Secondly, if currency to equal international value were autommatically returned to NZ after the overseas investors converted their NZ$, government and private debt would not be a problem for an economy.”

                      Private debt isn’t a problem for the economy. It could of course be a big problem for person who runs up the debt. Government debt is more of a problem in that repayment does fall to all taxpayers in the economy. At the very lest higher debt today means higher taxes tommorrow.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                       

                      “You are consistently restricting “profit” to mean the currency of payment, rather than the capital taken by the owners.
                      Odd interpretation.”
                      Let me be clear what I mean by profit: it is the difference between revenue and costs. This is the standard definition used by accountants and economics. They do however differ in the way they think about costs.

                       
                      Agreed. So given that currency is simply a means of exchange for that profit, why the fixation on whether NZ$ end up back in the NZ economy? 
                       
                       

                      Private debt isn’t a problem for the economy. It could of course be a big problem for person who runs up the debt.

                       
                      That’s what Bush thought. Then the housing market crashed and suddenly private debt was a massive problem. Whether bailing out the banks was a good idea is another matter I don’t want to get into – the global economy still had(has) a problem.

                       
                    • “Agreed. So given that currency is simply a means of exchange for that profit, why the fixation on whether NZ$ end up back in the NZ economy?”

                      Don’t follow the “currency is simply a means of exchange for that profit” bit. The NZ$ coming back to NZ just mean that they are not lost to the NZ economy as people like Michael Fry and David Cunliffe both claim.

                      “Private debt isn’t a problem for the economy. It could of course be a big problem for person who runs up the debt.”

                      “That’s what Bush thought. Then the housing market crashed and suddenly private debt was a massive problem.”

                      No the government made it a massive problem.

                      “Whether bailing out the banks was a good idea is another matter I don’t want to get into – the global economy still had(has) a problem.” ”

                      In short the bank bailouts were a very bad idea. It was just corporate welfareism at its worst.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yep. The bank bailouts were just another way of extorting money from the state to gift to the top 0.01%. The financial speculators and bankers.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      “Agreed. So given that currency is simply a means of exchange for that profit, why the fixation on whether NZ$ end up back in the NZ economy?”
                      Don’t follow the “currency is simply a means of exchange for that profit” bit. The NZ$ coming back to NZ just mean that they are not lost to the NZ economy as people like Michael Fry and David Cunliffe both claim.

                       
                      At the absolute least, surely an overseas investor trying to convert NZ$ into local currency increases the supply of NZ$ for sale on the international market, thus affecting the exchange rate?
                       

                      “Private debt isn’t a problem for the economy. It could of course be a big problem for person who runs up the debt.”
                      “That’s what Bush thought. Then the housing market crashed and suddenly private debt was a massive problem.”
                      No the government made it a massive problem.

                      Silly them, perceiving that the collapse of the banking sector might be an issue for the wider economy.
                       

                    • “At the absolute least, surely an overseas investor trying to convert NZ$ into local currency increases the supply of NZ$ for sale on the international market, thus affecting the exchange rate?”

                      Yes, if they are supplying enough NZ$s. What they would do is lower the price that someone has to pay to buy a NZ$1.

                      “Silly them, perceiving that the collapse of the banking sector might be an issue for the wider economy.”

                      My argument would be that there would not have been a collapse of the banking sector. There would have been problems obviously, but the banking sector would have survived. As I said before this was just corporate welfarism.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      How would you have unfrozen the credit markets and unfrozen interbank lending?

                      Those were the major issues.

                      Too big to fail = too big to exist.

                    • “Too big to fail = too big to exist.”

                      One of the biggest problems with the financial sector is the idea of Too Big to Fail. Nothing is too big to fail and people thinking that banks are just causes moral hazard problems.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      All large banks should be broken up and their proprietary trading arms fully isolated from their banking functions.

                      Further the Government should provide citizens with basic banking to allow most people the option of leaving the private banking system.

                    • “Yeah but as YOU used it in your comment, WHICH revenue stream and WHICH set of costs were YOU referring to.”

                      Yes I did use the word profit in a number of my comments. That is right. What I meant by it was the price of whatever good was being produced times the number of units of that good sold minus the costs of producing those units. I don’t think I ever mentioned any particular good or service in any of my postings.

                      I have to say I don’t see what your problem is here.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      The problem is your bullshit assertion that profits can’t leave NZ which shows you don’t understand what profits are and you don’t understand why foreign owners benefit from taking those profits out of NZ.

                      NZ wealth is being pumped out overseas and you are pretending its not happening.

                    • “NZ wealth is being pumped out overseas and you are pretending its not happening.”

                      That’s because it’s not happening. The (real) wealth of a country is, to put it simply, the amount of goods and services that the country produces, this is not going down, goods and services are not “being pumped out overseas”.

                    • McFlock

                      “At the absolute least, surely an overseas investor trying to convert NZ$ into local currency increases the supply of NZ$ for sale on the international market, thus affecting the exchange rate?”
                      Yes, if they are supplying enough NZ$s. What they would do is lower the price that someone has to pay to buy a NZ$1.

                      But we are not talking about individual investors – we’re talking about the aggregate results of all profit-taking. So that lowers the exchange rate (which can be a good thing, but that’s another discussion). So the profit DOES leave the country, because it’s transferred into the investors’ local currencies with a corresponding decline in the value of the dollar.
                          
                      And that capital which does leave the country to overseas investors is less likely to be invested in NZ in subsequent years because as we’ve discussed local NZ investors are more likely to vote locally: although international investors might reinvest in NZ (which they wouldn’t be planning on if they were selling their NZD), NZ is competing globally for their investment dollar. This is not an issue for local investors.
                              
                      SO overseas investment does take capital out of NZ, which might boost GDP in one year but it is less likely to be reinvested within NZ than if  locals owned the enterprise.

                    • Gosman

                      If your theory was correct, (which it isn’t because your failure to appreciate the was markets work), then the NZ dollar would have be steadily depreciating over the past decades as a result of the increased foreign investment and repatriation of profits. The fact that this isn’t happening suggests your theory has a serious flaw in it somewhere. Perhaps you should think about why what you are suggesting should happen hasn’t in fact been happening.

                    • McFlock

                      Shh Gosman.
                      Grownups are talking.
                           
                      If your suggestion about the consequences of my theory took place in a complete vacuum devoid of other circumstances, we might expect to see that. But the real world is not as simple as you are, so we wouldn’t. 

                      For example: key currencies that we measure against have had their own currency devaluations, rising food prices have helped some export sectors (while the high dollar has hurt others), and of course there are a whole bunch of forex speculators trying to psych each other out. 
                           

                    • “But we are not talking about individual investors – we’re talking about the aggregate results of all profit-taking. So that lowers the exchange rate (which can be a good thing, but that’s another discussion).”

                      Ok think of all profits as coming from one big firm. If the total amount of NZ$s being sold is large enough it could lower the exchange rate.

                      “So the profit DOES leave the country, because it’s transferred into the investors’ local currencies with a corresponding decline in the value of the dollar.”

                      No. If NZ’s inflation rate is zero, as I assumed, then what NZ$1 buys in New Zealand is still the same. What changes is how much local currency the overseas investor get for his NZ$1. So if there is NZ$1 sold then the buyer of that dollar can buy NZ$1 worth of goods in New Zealand. So, put simply, NZ$1 leaves New Zealand but NZ$1 dollar also comes back. The exchange rate does not determine how much NZ$1 buys in New Zealand, it will determine how much NZ$1 will buy in foreign countries. May be that’s the way to think about it.

                      “And that capital which does leave the country to overseas investors is less likely to be invested in NZ in subsequent years because as we’ve discussed local NZ investors are more likely to vote locally: although international investors might reinvest in NZ (which they wouldn’t be planning on if they were selling their NZD), NZ is competing globally for their investment dollar. This is not an issue for local investors.”

                      But if there are good enough investment opportunities overseas then even NZ investor will invest there. What this is asking is just how risk adverse are NZ investors.

                      “SO overseas investment does take capital out of NZ, which might boost GDP in one year but it is less likely to be reinvested within NZ than if locals owned the enterprise.”

                      Again, it depends. As I said before, if there are better (risk adjusted) investment opportunities here you will get more investment here and if the opportunities are better overseas you will get investment there. It’s the same anywhere. If there are better investments to be made in the North Island than the South you will get more investment in the north. If things are better in the South Island then investment in more likely there. Risk is just one factor that investors have to take into account. And risk could work the other way round. If you were living in Iraq, would you want to invest locally or in the US., for example?

                    • McFlock

                      No. If NZ’s inflation rate is zero, as I assumed, then what NZ$1 buys in New Zealand is still the same. What changes is how much local currency the overseas investor get for his NZ$1. So if there is NZ$1 sold then the buyer of that dollar can buy NZ$1 worth of goods in New Zealand. So, put simply, NZ$1 leaves New Zealand but NZ$1 dollar also comes back. The exchange rate does not determine how much NZ$1 buys in New Zealand, it will determine how much NZ$1 will buy in foreign countries. May be that’s the way to think about it.

                      But that’s just a shallow way to shift the goalposts. In a global market with imports and exports you’re arguing that increasing the cost of imports by lowering the currency value will not have an inflationary effect if you assume there is no inflationary effect. Well d’uh.

                      But if there are good enough investment opportunities overseas then even NZ investor will invest there. What this is asking is just how risk adverse are NZ investors.

                      Indeed. And what percentage of NZ investors invest how much of their investment capital within NZ? How much of NZ is funded by overseas investment? That would give you the ratio right there of the amount of local investment that results when the enterprise is NZ owned.

                      “SO overseas investment does take capital out of NZ, which might boost GDP in one year but it is less likely to be reinvested within NZ than if locals owned the enterprise.”

                      Again, it depends. As I said before, if there are better (risk adjusted) investment opportunities here you will get more investment here and if the opportunities are better overseas you will get investment there. It’s the same anywhere. If there are better investments to be made in the North Island than the South you will get more investment in the north. If things are better in the South Island then investment in more likely there. Risk is just one factor that investors have to take into account. And risk could work the other way round. If you were living in Iraq, would you want to invest locally or in the US., for example?

                      So given your phd in economics, any idea on the how much NZ investors are biased towards NZ investments? Or is every single person with a bit of capital a perfectly rational investment robot with excellent information about all investment opportunities across the planet, with neither fear nor favour, malice nor ill-will?
                           
                      Come on, this is a real-world situation. You must have actual data to back up your position.

                    • “But that’s just a shallow way to shift the goalposts. In a global market with imports and exports you’re arguing that increasing the cost of imports by lowering the currency value will not have an inflationary effect if you assume there is no inflationary effect. Well d’uh.”

                      No I saying, as I always have been, that you have a dollar to spend on or in New Zealand on good and services under both situations where either a NZer get the profits from firms or a foreigner gets the profits. If the exchange was moved enough to increase inflation (unlikely) then the Reserve Bank would have to deal with this. The inflationary effect of profits on the exchange would be small compared to other effects like growth in the money supply.

                      “Indeed. And what percentage of NZ investors invest how much of their investment capital within NZ? How much of NZ is funded by overseas investment? That would give you the ratio right there of the amount of local investment that results when the enterprise is NZ owned.”

                      A lot of people invest overseas since most people invest indirectly via things like pension funds, superannuation funds etc

                      “So given your phd in economics, any idea on the how much NZ investors are biased towards NZ investments? Or is every single person with a bit of capital a perfectly rational investment robot with excellent information about all investment opportunities across the planet, with neither fear nor favour, malice nor ill-will?”

                      Most individuals doesn’t have be rational investor since as already noted they don’t invest directly and the likes of pension funds and superannuation funds are very rational investors with a lot of information about investment opportunities.

                    • McFlock

                       If the exchange was moved enough to increase inflation (unlikely) then the Reserve Bank would have to deal with this. The inflationary effect of profits on the exchange would be small compared to other effects like growth in the money supply.

                      “would be”. That “would be” a guesstimate. Any supporting data? I mean, the US trade deficit certainly hasn’t helped the USD against the RMB.

                      Apart from the fact that CPI inflation includes domestically produced goods as well, so that would absorb some of the inflationary effects right there. But then your imported goods would still be more expensive, as are those which already routinely serve the global market (like cheese).
                       

                      “Indeed. And what percentage of NZ investors invest how much of their investment capital within NZ? How much of NZ is funded by overseas investment? That would give you the ratio right there of the amount of local investment that results when the enterprise is NZ owned.”
                      A lot of people invest overseas since most people invest indirectly via things like pension funds, superannuation funds etc

                      “A lot”. Yes indeed. Gotta love your scientific use of ratios and percentages.
                       

                      “So given your phd in economics, any idea on the how much NZ investors are biased towards NZ investments? Or is every single person with a bit of capital a perfectly rational investment robot with excellent information about all investment opportunities across the planet, with neither fear nor favour, malice nor ill-will?”

                      Most individuals doesn’t have be rational investor since as already noted they don’t invest directly and the likes of pension funds and superannuation funds are very rational investors with a lot of information about investment opportunities.

                      Okay then, let me rephrase:
                      “So given your phd in economics, any idea on the how much NZ investment capital is biased towards NZ investment opportunities?  Or is every single  investment  decision perfectly rational and based on excellent information about all investment opportunities across the planet, with neither fear nor favour, malice nor ill-will”? 
                       

                  • ““would be”. That “would be” a guesstimate. Any supporting data? I mean, the US trade deficit certainly hasn’t helped the USD against the RMB.”

                    “Any sopporting data” You mean you want some “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” data? Why? Obviously to you its worthless.

                    “Indeed. And what percentage of NZ investors invest how much of their investment capital within NZ? How much of NZ is funded by overseas investment? That would give you the ratio right there of the amount of local investment that results when the enterprise is NZ owned.”

                    Who knows and for that matter why would they care?

                    “A lot of people invest overseas since most people invest indirectly via things like pension funds, superannuation funds etc”

                    “A lot”. Yes indeed. Gotta love your scientific use of ratios and percentages.

                    Yes but remmber for rato adn percentages are just “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” data.

                    “So given your phd in economics, any idea on the how much NZ investors are biased towards NZ investments? Or is every single person with a bit of capital a perfectly rational investment robot with excellent information about all investment opportunities across the planet, with neither fear nor favour, malice nor ill-will?”

                    Most individuals doesn’t have be rational investor since as already noted they don’t invest directly and the likes of pension funds and superannuation funds are very rational investors with a lot of information about investment opportunities.

                    Okay then, let me rephrase:
                    “So given your phd in economics, any idea on the how much NZ investment capital is biased towards NZ investment opportunities? Or is every single investment decision perfectly rational and based on excellent information about all investment opportunities across the planet, with neither fear nor favour, malice nor ill-will”?

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      ““would be”. That “would be” a guesstimate. Any supporting data? I mean, the US trade deficit certainly hasn’t helped the USD against the RMB.”
                      “Any sopporting data” You mean you want some “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” data? Why? Obviously to you its worthless.

                      Nah mate, it just shows correlation on a macro-scale, which can be useful. But sadly it doesn’t show causal relationships and all that other good stuff that science likes.
                       

                      “Indeed. And what percentage of NZ investors invest how much of their investment capital within NZ? How much of NZ is funded by overseas investment? That would give you the ratio right there of the amount of local investment that results when the enterprise is NZ owned.”
                      Who knows and for that matter why would they care?

                      Well, someone wanting to look at the effects of overseas investment, of course. I mean, even just to see whether there is a bias towards domestic investment as opposed to international speculation.
                        
                      But if they were just taking it as part of their catechism that it wasn’t an issue, they probably wouldn’t bother looking.

                      “A lot of people invest overseas since most people invest indirectly via things like pension funds, superannuation funds etc”
                      “A lot”. Yes indeed. Gotta love your scientific use of ratios and percentages.
                      Yes but remmber for rato adn percentages are just “unrepeatable and undemonstrable” data.

                      Too true. But most sciences have something up their sleeve other than population-based observation in complex environments. And the population statistics verify the analyses.
                       

                      “So given your phd in economics, any idea on the how much NZ investors are biased towards NZ investments? Or is every single person with a bit of capital a perfectly rational investment robot with excellent information about all investment opportunities across the planet, with neither fear nor favour, malice nor ill-will?”

                      Most individuals doesn’t have be rational investor since as already noted they don’t invest directly and the likes of pension funds and superannuation funds are very rational investors with a lot of information about investment opportunities.

                      Okay then, let me rephrase:
                      “So given your phd in economics, any idea on the how much NZ investment capital is biased towards NZ investment opportunities? Or is every single investment decision perfectly rational and based on excellent information about all investment opportunities across the planet, with neither fear nor favour, malice nor ill-will”?

                      ….
                       

                • Colonial Viper

                  PhD in Moronic.

                  NZD don’t have to be used to buy NZ goods, they can be used to buy international currencies without having to ever come back to NZ.

                  You know this of course, but are being deliberately obtuse.

                  The more lies you spread the dumber you get BTW. Just a warning.

                  • “NZD don’t have to be used to buy NZ goods, they can be used to buy international currencies without having to ever come back to NZ.”

                    Yes they can buy international currencies but each transaction has to have a buyer and a seller. We sell NZ$s to get foreign currencies and someone buys the NZ$s we sell. The buyer of the NZ$s can only use them to buy something in or from NZ.

                    • felix

                      “The buyer of the NZ$s can only use them to buy something from NZ.”

                      Nonsense, they can use them to buy anything from anywhere in the world sold by any of the many overseas owned companies currently trading in NZ.

                    • “Nonsense, they can use them to buy anything from anywhere in the world sold by any of the many overseas owned companies currently trading in NZ.”

                      Read what I have been saying. We sell the NZ$1, the buyer of that dollar uses it to by something from or in NZ. What else would he buy the dollar in the first place?

                    • felix

                      I’m in no doubt about what you’ve been saying and it has changed considerably. Just a few comments back you were insisting that the only thing NZ dollars could ever be used for was to buy NZ made goods and services.

                      I note you’ve backed off from that position somewhat and are now acknowledging that NZ dollars can be used to buy things made anywhere, by anyone, from any body trading in NZ.

                      I realise you’re an economist so I’m being very patient with you but don’t start taking the piss now Paul.

                    • “I note you’ve backed off from that position somewhat and are now acknowledging that NZ dollars can be used to buy things made anywhere, by anyone, from any body trading in NZ.”

                      No my position now is the same as it has always been. In short, profits don’t go overseas in so much as they get spent in New Zealand or on New Zealand produced goods and services no matter who gets the profits from the ownership of local firms. That is, profits are not lost to the New Zealand economy.

                    • darkhorse

                      A simple thing called debt is the difference between what we earn and what we spend.  Profits being repatriated can be funded by debt back in NZ – profits being the price we pay for the capital invested in NZ – there is no free lunch.  For some 90% of the past three decades our overseas expenditures have exceeded our overseas earnings.  We are broke and getting broker mostly thanks to foreign owned banks inflating various assets through debt and through asset sales to foreign interests.

                       

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Paul Walker. You’re spreading idiocy faster than the speed of light.

                      Read what I have been saying. We sell the NZ$1, the buyer of that dollar uses it to by something from or in NZ. What else would he buy the dollar in the first place?

                      For the purposes of FINANCIAL SPECULATION, not for trade.

                      FFS

                    • CV

                      “For the purposes of FINANCIAL SPECULATION, not for trade.”

                      Explain how keeping in mind we have a floating exchange rate.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You seem to be labouring under the mistaken impression that the NZD is not manipulated simply because there is a ‘free market’.

                      Apparently speculators move the NZD all the time e.g.

                      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1204/S00350/nz-dollar-rises-on-speculation-ecb-will-help-spain-fed.htm

                    • felix

                      Paul, you’re being dishonest.

                      You did change your stance.

                      First you insisted that NZ$ could only be used to pay for NZ products. You said this is all they’re good for. You were very precise in your wording.

                      You have now abandoned that (obviously nonsensical) position and have admitted that NZ$ can buy anything from any body trading in NZ, which is an entirely different matter.

                    • “You have now abandoned that (obviously nonsensical) position and have admitted that NZ$ can buy anything from any body trading in NZ, which is an entirely different matter.”

                      It is the same matter since the point I have been making all along is that profits are not lost to NZ. This is simply because no matter who get the profits they end up being spent in NZ or on NZ goods. As for foreign made goods being sold in NZ, such sales are still part of NZ’s GDP – as noted before – but also the services that go with the sale and intermediation services produced here are also being paid for. Both of these are NZ produced.

                    • felix

                      No it’s not the same matter.

                      A body buying goods produced in NZ by NZers is beneficial to those NZers, and that’s what this discussion is about.

                      You now seem to be arguing that it doesn’t matter whether a NZer benefits from a transaction or a foreigner benefits from a transaction, as long as someone does.

                      And that’s exactly what you were denying with your initial argument about profits never leaving NZ.

                      Congrats Paul, you’ve come 180 degrees.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      It is the same matter since the point I have been making all along is that profits are not lost to NZ. This is simply because no matter who get the profits they end up being spent in NZ or on NZ goods.

                      What are you, 14?

                      Why are you pretending that we didn’t have the conversation around the full market convertibility of NZD?

                      And that they can be used to buy other currencies (yen, USD, Euro) and NEVER have to be spent in NZ?

                      Don’t waste my fucking time.

                      in addition you just used the word “profit” in the most dodgy bullshit manner.

                    • CV

                      “Why are you pretending that we didn’t have the conversation around the full market convertibility of NZD?

                      And that they can be used to buy other currencies (yen, USD, Euro) and NEVER have to be spent in NZ?”

                      Yes we can sell NZ$s but someone has to buy those dollars and what does the buyer so with the dollars. They can only buy NZ produced goods or come to NZ and spend them here.

                      “Don’t waste my fucking time.”

                      I’m not but you are increasingly wasting mine.

                      “in addition you just used the word “profit” in the most dodgy bullshit manner.”

                      I use the word profit to mean revenue minus costs, which is as it turns out, the definition of profit.

                    • “A body buying goods produced in NZ by NZers is beneficial to those NZers, and that’s what this discussion is about.”

                      Yes and the point felix is that no matter who gets the profits from a NZ firm NZers do benefit. If a NZer gets the profits let us assume they spend the money on NZ made goods. NZers gain. If a foreigner get the money they have to sell the NZ$s and buy their local currency and someone has to buy those NZ$s. What can the buyer do with the dollars? They can buy NZ made products (ie exports) or come to NZ and spend the money here. In both cases NZers gain.

                    • felix

                      That’s not enough though Paul. They must in both gain at least to the same degree for that particular argument to hold.

                      But it’s a sideshow anyhow. What matters is who gains the power to make the decisions in the economy.

                    • “Actually the painful bit is getting economists to understand the place of the market in society.”

                      No I’m with Gosman on this one. People (including some of those from the left*) trying to understand the market is just so painful to watch. I mean the mercantilism that Adam Smith attacked is still with us, albeit in a slightly different form. Many people still don’t seem to get the idea that both parties gain from trade. If they didn’t why do they trade? How many people get the idea of comparative advantage? I could go on. But there seem to be many basic economic issues that people don’t understand.

                      * Not all of those on the left however. Reading economists like John Roemer, for example, is always worthwhile. His book “Analytical Foundations of Marxian Economic Theory”, 1981, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press is worth the trouble of reading. I’m a bit pissed off since I seem to have lost my copy. Jon Elster is a political scientist also worth reading.

                    • “That’s not enough though Paul. They must in both gain at least to the same degree for that particular argument to hold”

                      Sorry felix I honestly don’t follow you here.

                    • felix

                      I’m not particularly interested in what you or Gosman think about “people on the left”.

                      What I am interested in is seeing you address the matter of decision-making power in the economy.

                      Not holding my breath though.

                    • “What I mean is that having money is having the power to make decisions.

                      Do you disagree?”

                      In the sense that having money means you can buy assets and thus gain control rights over them then yes I agree.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Paul. The important thing about money is that it controls people, not assets. But you already know this.

                    • felix

                      Well that’s part of it, but it goes further than that Paul.

                      With my money I can make spending decisions that affect what other bodies can do.

                      Do you disagree?

                    • “Well that’s part of it, but it goes further than that Paul.

                      With my money I can make spending decisions that affect what other bodies can do.

                      Do you disagree?”

                      In the sense that this must be true for all private goods, I agree. If I buy an ice-cream you can’t buy the same ice-cream. Or in more general terms, if I buy the control rights over an asset, I have them and you don’t.

                      In the case of public goods, I disagree. They are by definition non rival.

                    • “Sorry for asking twice Paul, I just noticed that you’ve responded to the same question above. My mistake.”

                      Don’t woryy I’m now completely lost as to who has replied to who. There are just too many postings to keep track.

                    • “Sorry for asking twice Paul, I just noticed that you’ve responded to the same question above. My mistake.”

                      Don’t worry I’m now completely lost as to who has replied to who. There are just too many postings to keep track.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I use the word profit to mean revenue minus costs, which is as it turns out, the definition of profit.

                      Oh you did, did you?

                      Then tell me which revenue stream you were referring to, and which set of costs you were referring to.

                      Or, you might just be obfuscating and making shit up.

                    • “I use the word profit to mean revenue minus costs, which is as it turns out, the definition of profit.

                      Oh you did, did you?

                      Then tell me which revenue stream you were referring to, and which set of costs you were referring to.

                      Or, you might just be obfuscating and making shit up.”

                      Look at any accounting or economics textbook, the definition of profit is revenue minus costs. Revenue is just the price of the good times the quantity sold and the costs refer to the costs of production. That is, the cost of the labour and capital used to produce the good.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yeah but as YOU used it in your comment, WHICH revenue stream and WHICH set of costs were YOU referring to.

                      Don’t waste my time by reciting the dictionary definition at me. Give me specifics.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Paul Walker – you seem to think that everyone around is thick and cannot read up the page to see what you have already written.

                      Your contention that forex trading in NZD must always result in goods and services being bought in NZ, and your contention that profits never really leave NZ, are BULLSHIT of the highest order.

                    • “Paul Walker – you seem to think that everyone around is thick and cannot read up the page to see what you have already written.”

                      Yes I do hope that people will go back and see what I have written so that they will know how wrong you are in what you say.

                      “Your contention that forex trading in NZD must always result in goods and services being bought in NZ, and your contention that profits never really leave NZ, are BULLSHIT of the highest order.”

                      What I actually said was that its doesn’t matter who gets the profits from NZ firms in the sense that if the owners are overseas then they have to sell the NZ$s they get and whoever buys those dollars can either buy NZ produced goods or services with them or come to NZ and spend them here. Should a NZer get the profits they will I assume spend them here.Thus the NZ$s get spent here either way and therefore there is no loss to the NZ economy if overseas investors gets the profits.

                    • Gosman

                      Paul, a lot of leftists, (including the ones on display here), can’t grasp the concept that all trade is by definition balanced. Anybody who accumulates a surplus of currency cannot do anything with that currency except destroy it, (irrational), spend it, or trade it to someone else who is faced with the same situation.

                      Even if they spent the money buying up all the farmland in NZ, for example, then they would still be faced with the dilemma that they would have currency they needed to spend to be of any use. It wouldn’t be in their interests to impoverish NZ as essentially that is like destroying the value of their money.

                      In a sense the countries accumulating profits in nZ are taking a bet that the NZ economy will produce goods and services that they would eventually want. They want NZ to increase it’s wealth so they can use their accumulated wealth.

                      People like felix have a power fixation whereas power in this equation is essentially meaningless.

                  • Gosman

                    Gawd. Leftist trying to understand the market is just so painful to watch.

                    • felix

                      Actually the painful bit is getting economists to understand the place of the market in society.

                    • Gosman

                      Yeah, just tell that market where it’s place is. It needs to be told that it can’t cause problems and must submit to the will of the people as represented by the Government. Where have I seen such idiotic thinking before? Oh that’s right, just every screwed up left wing country like Cuba or Zimbabwe.

                    • felix

                      I prefer democratic control, thanks.

                    • Gosman

                      That’s nice. Democratic control is as ineffective as undemocratic control when it comes to the market. Simply because the ‘will of the people’ deem it so doesn’t make it so.

                    • felix

                      That’s the very definition of “begging the question” there Gosman.

                    • Gosman

                      Explain please.

                    • felix

                      You want me to explain what “begging the question” means? FFS Gos.

                      You offered your belief in the supremecy of the market as evidence for your contention that the market is supreme.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Democratic control is as ineffective as undemocratic control when it comes to the market.

                      its very easy to regulate/replace markets to serve the wider interests of society, as opposed to just serving the private interests of a few.

                    • Gosman

                      Where did I mentiona anything about the supremacy of the market? These are your words not mine.

                    • felix

                      Where, Gos? Why just a few comments up where you effectively said that the will of the people expressed democratically is of less worth than the will of the market.

                  • “What I am interested in is seeing you address the matter of decision-making power in the economy.”

                    That depends on what you mean. Decision-making power, if you mean by this control rights, is ownership. Control rights come with ownership. In fact the 1986 Hart and Moore approach to the theory of the firm (often called the property rights approach) define ownership to be the holding of residual control rights. In their approach the owner of an asset is whoever get to make decisions in situations not covered by a previous contract.

                    • felix

                      What I mean is that having money is having the power to make decisions.

                      Do you disagree?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Paul. The vast majority of currency transactions are for the purposes of financial speculation, not for the purposes of settling import/export trades.

                      And yes you are wasting my fucking time.

                    • felix

                      Sorry for asking twice Paul, I just noticed that you’ve responded to the same question above. My mistake.

                  • CV

                    “Paul. The important thing about money is that it controls people, not assets. But you already know this.”

                    In a way you are right. Having control rights over non-human assets gives you control over humans insofar as the humans need the non-human assets to be productive. Having money lets you buy the non-human assets.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You know fuck all about people, their motivations and desires, their greed and their fear, it seems.

                • KJT

                  It is not being used for goods. It is being used as a speculative commodity.

                  Those dollars may well never be spent back in NZ.

                  • Gosman

                    Highly improbable I would suggest. If you remove currency outside an economy it has no real value. You can only really benefit from holding on to it if other people are wanting it at a trade price more advantageous to you than at the time you came into it.

  14. Tanz 14

    Freaking brilliant speech. Pulled far more punters than Winston. Good stuff from Cunliffe. Key doesn’t take questions from the floor, ever.

  15. prism 15

    What a great discussion with lots of thoughtful, and some pithy comments. Lots of wide thoughts about Labour and Cunliffe – plenty to think about. It seems very dynamic without lots of tosh from they who mustn’t be named.

  16. Investment banker Rob Cameron a key player in the lead-up to the Government’s decision to float stakes in State enterprises says the attempts to sell that to the public have been a disaster. Radio NZ

    These “assets” aren’t assets they are essential services. They are fundamental to the growth and dynamism of the economy. They are owned by the public for good reason and that good reason is that they are monopoly services that need to be run as a single system for the benefit of the whole economy. These essential services exist to provide the whole economy with electricity. They do not exist to subsidise or to provide secure shelter for private capital. If they are to be run to maximise returns to shareholders they will not be run to maximise the benefit to the whole economy.

    more on this at … http://howdaft.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/subsidising-capital-markets-though.html

    • good to see you posting at howdaft again, darkhorse

    • Gosman 16.2

      When did Air NZ become a monopoly again? Also don’t we already have a privatly owned energy company? Wouldn’t that suggest there isn’t a monopoly in that market as well?

      • darkhorse 16.2.1

        In both cases “competition” is very limited, what does exist is contrived and their public service benefit has been forgotten to the detriment of a large part of the economy, particularly economic growth.  

        Also “competition” in these areas tends to be unstable as a monopoly is the efficient form for such a function – note the US and global airline industry for chronic profitability problems, destructive competition and huge state subsidies keeping things flying – so to speak.

        Also these activities provide services to communities that have more value to the economy than the service value itself – that is they enable economic activity to occur that wouldn’t exist if the service didn’t exist.  For proof of this go no further than the Queenstown tourism market – the market is determined by the airline services provided to it.  The airlines make little profit on this service but this entire community/economy is utterly dependent on the continued existence of those services.  The airlines are gate keeper to an entire community/economy.  That economy would be even bigger if the airlines could be induced to put more flights into the town.

        The marginal value of an airline seat into Queenstown is much higher for the  local economy than it is for the airlines.  In this case the optimum level of service for the whole economy would be much higher than the optimum profitable service for the airline.  The economy loses because there is no mechanism for funding that gap between the two optima. 

        • Gosman 16.2.1.1

          I’d say Russia’s Balance of Payments surplus has more to do with the price of oil rather than anything to do with throwing Goldman Sachs out of the country (which it hasn’t done by the way see http://www.goldmansachs.com/worldwide/russia/index.html). You are also terribly naiive if you think Russia is outside the global economic financial system.

          Regardless is your view that a Balance of Payments surplus is a positive, (and the corrollary of that position being that a Balance of Payments deficit is bad). That isn’t necessarily the case at all. If it was then all countries would be fighting to have a surplus which is obviously an impossibility. Whether a Balance of Payments surplus or deficit is good or bad is dependent on the situation of the economy at one particular time.

          • Paul Walker 16.2.1.1.1

            Don’t think in terms of the balance of payments since it is always zero. Think about the individual accounts that make up the BoP. The state of the capital account is not a problem as such. With a floating exchange rate there is an automatic adjustment mechanism in place. This is one advantage of a floating exchange rate, current/capital account deficits/surpluses are self-correcting.

            What may be more troubling is that the capital account surplus may be a signal of problems in the wider economy. But the answer here is not to attempt to intervene in the exchange rate – as some would have us do -but to find and fix the actual problem. At worst a deficit is a symptom of a disease but it is not the disease itself.

            But it is also common for countries that are growing rapidly to run capital account surpluses. This is simply because of the amount of capital coming into the country to fund the growth.

            • Gosman 16.2.1.1.1.1

              Yeah, when I stated BOP I meant the current account, which is what many people taken to mean by BOP now. However I agree that the Balance of Payments is by definition always in balance.

              BTW Paul, it is refreshing to see someone with such an understanding of the fundamentals of the market. This applies across the political spectrum as many on the right fail to understand these concepts as well.

            • KJT 16.2.1.1.1.2

              “With a floating exchange rate there is an automatic adjustment mechanism in place. This is one advantage of a floating exchange rate, current/capital account deficits/surpluses are self-correcting”.

              Another simplistic economic meme to go with comparative advantage.

              It does not work in practice.

              The theory is every currency will find a natural level so that currency deficits/surpluses between countries even out over time.

              Recent events have shown the fallacy of that meme.

              Speculative currency flows and financial and invisibles movements prevent a “natural balance”.

              Reality has shown it is not “self correcting”.

              • Gosman

                Ummmm…how exactly hasn’t it been shown to balance out over time? Even the example touted by some hard core leftists here as evidence (sic) of John Key’s involvement in economic sabotage, (i.e. the Banker’s Trust short selling of the NZ dollar in the late 80′s), shows that the market rebalances from a position of over or under valuation. The great benefit of the market is you can’t stay out of market equilibrium for very long.

                • KJT

                  What bankers trust did is morally and ethically the same as robbing bank.
                  It should be illegal. It is significant because it says a lot about the currency speculation industry and the amorality of those involved, including Key.

                  The whole point is our exchange rate is not in equilibrium, with regards to the exchange of goods and services, because of demand for our currency, for speculation, which is totally unrelated to demand for NZ goods and services.

                  95% of NZ dollar transactions are simply currency speculation.

                  • Gosman

                    “What bankers trust did is morally and ethically the same as robbing bank”

                    No it is not. Identifying something that under or over valued in your view and then making an investment decision based on your analysis is a complex task and completely legitimate. Many people who trade on TradeMe do this all the time.

                    Do you think buying something cheap and then selling at a higher price is wrong? Strange if you do.

                    • KJT

                      OK. So if I find an undervalued stack of heroin it is fine if I buy it and then sell it on. Yeah right.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      No it is not. Identifying something that under or over valued in your view and then making an investment decision based on your analysis is a complex task and completely legitimate.

                      These investment banks aren’t just passive analysts, they actively manipulate the circumstances and nature of their investment and if market behaviour!

                    • Gosman

                      Are you comparing the NZ dollar to Heroin??? Do you object to currencies full stop?

                      It is a valid position to take admittedly just not one that seems to make much sense.

                      I suppose you could revert to a barter economy to avoid currencies. Can you make change for a sheep?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yeah bankers, financiers and other ticket clippers draining capital out of the real economy, into their pockets and into the financialised unproductive economy.

                    • Gosman

                      It is highly difficult to manipulate markets long term. Sure you can do it on a short term basis but if it is going against the fundamental nature of the market eventually you will get burnt and lose.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I suppose you could revert to a barter economy to avoid currencies. Can you make change for a sheep?

                      All you need are locally or Govt issued currencies which create no debt and attract no interest, as opposed to private bank issued money.

                  • KJT

                    I am saying that if your making 50 million dollars on speculation is going to seriously damage a lot of people.

                    And you do not care.

                    Then it says a lot about you.

                    No different from a drug dealer.

                    • Gosman

                      Making money from trading is not wrong KJT. It is the basics of our economy after all. What does a retailer do if not buying something cheap and selling it at a higher price with little in the way of value add? Do you have a fundamental problem with retailers?

              • No. Adjustment take time but you can’t run capital account surpluses forever, your exchange rate will fall under floating exchange rates, or you will be forced to devalue under a fixed exchange rate.

                You don’t move towards a natural balance you move towards an equilibrium where supply equals demand.

                • Gosman

                  I think where many leftists have trouble with this area is that they mistake short term capital flow as having the effect of a long term impact on the ‘true’ valuation of the dollar. While it is true that they can distort the market the effects diminsh over time. There could be a case made for discouraging this sort of short term ‘speculation’, especially on an economy which is heavily reliant on international trade for it’s wealth. However the impact of such speculation can be mitigated with the use of various FX derivative products and there are other problems that arise when you distinguish between different types of capital flows and treat them differently.

                  • KJT

                    You want to mitigate burglary by doing more of it.

                    The “short term” speculation means that supply and demand for NZ dollars is totally uncoupled from real goods and services. To the detriment of the NZ economy.

                    And private debt, including that of offshore speculators in NZ dollars, became a problem the second our Government made it clear they would bail out banks.

                    You almost hit the nail on your head when you said someone will only hold something if they expect to sell it for more.

                    That is why demand for NZ dollars has no connection to the NZ economy.

                    It is the most speculated currency in the world. Speculators hang onto NZ dollars because they can make a killing on it.

                    • Gosman

                      “That is why demand for NZ dollars has no connection to the NZ economy.”

                      This is evidence of how you just can’t grasp the concepts that Paul and myself are articulating. If the demand for NZ dollars becomes disconnected from what is happening in the economy then there become a great opportunity to make money via speculation because it will soon move back to the equilibrium level.

                • Colonial Viper

                  1) Market equilibrium models of financial markets do not work, never have.
                  2) Devaluation of the NZD would be very helpful for our economy.

                  • Gosman

                    1) That seems to be just your opinion. Where is the reasoned argument backing this up?

                    2) Devaluation is normally only a stop gap measure. No country can continue to devalue for ever and a day. Remember devaluing a currency means the revaluation of others.

        • Gosman 16.2.1.2

          Your understanding of monopolies is also faulty. The fact that nations have to prop up their ‘National’ carriers or subsidise the airline industry is indicative that it should be open to competition rather than controlled by the State.

          • Colonial Viper 16.2.1.2.1

            Why? if private airlines were competitive they would have entered the market by themselves. Truth of the matter is that airline usage is going to become the sole preserve of the wealthy and the elite once more.

            • Gosman 16.2.1.2.1.1

              That’s the market. The question you don’t answer is why should someone in Auckland subsidise the Queenstown economy via their Taxation? If people want to live in Queenstown they should not expect subsidies from the rest of the country for airlines flying in.

              • Colonial Viper

                I know Righties despise the idea of an interdependent community and society, but that’s where we live so get used to it.

                We’re just lucky that the South Island haven’t decided to cut off power to us at the Cook Strait cable, by thinking the way you do.

                • Gosman

                  Is the power that the South Island transfers north not being bought in a market CV? Are the northern consumers being subsidised by those in the South? If so, where is your evidence for this view?

  17. Colonial Viper 17

    Paul Walker, trained parrot – thanks for wasting my time. You seem educated yet deliberately dumb at the same time. Why not put your intellect to good use for our country instead of letting it rot going around in ever decreasing circles of pointless misdirection.

    • Gosman 17.1

      States the person who lives off his girlfriend’s parents money and won’t get off his backside to actually put in to practice that which he advocates.

      • Colonial Viper 17.1.1

        Can I get back to you after I’ve finished my Mediterranean Brunch Plate and bubbly.

        • Gosman 17.1.1.1

          Doesn’t bother me either way. I mean it would be interesting to see you actually do something rather than just talk about it but alternatively if there are less people doing something practical against our system that makes the system safer from being replaced by something idiotic. Your choice but I think it is a win-win for me whatever you decide to do.

  18. If the left are so economically challenged how come that the worlds biggest creditor is China?  They would have to be as left as it gets for a serious government these days

    Simple reason is that they have seen the fallacies of the right’s orthodoxy and the right’s inability to move from that position and are exploiting it to the maximum.

    Not everyday you see a mug like Paul turn up in the global market place willing to mortgage his family’s future so he can afford the luxury of three degrees and a PhD and an indolent lifestyle – for Paul is all of us – stupid arrogant and lazy – and doomed by his vanity and his belief system. 

    And while we are at it bagging the left it seems Russia has a balance of payments surplus ever since it threw Goldman Sachs out of the country and the plague of Pauls that were visited upon it by them (not saying that Russia or China are wonderful here either just smarter than us) and so do Saudi Arabia and a whole lot of other authoritarian and left wing regimes.  

    Meanwhile the free market democracies like Greece and NZ and the US are all seriously broke.  The US and Europe now resorting to printing money to escape that reality (temporarily).

     

    • Gosman 18.1

      China is hardly as left as it gets. I can think of countries like Cuba, North Korea, and even Venezuela which follow more left wing economics. China started to grow economically once they unshackled the private sector in the late 1970′s. It is a state controlled capitalism it is true but it is still capitalist.

      • Colonial Viper 18.1.1

        An endorsement of state controlled capitalism then? It seems that economic growth in state capitalist nations like Russia and China have far outpaced that of neoliberal capitalist nations.

        • Gosman 18.1.1.1

          Russian wealth generation has been almost solely focused on the oil sector. If you want us to follow that model then we will have to open up the country for increased exploration, which might be problematic for Greenies. Chinese growth has been good it is true but eventually they will come up against the fundamental weaknesses of their model. The Japanese discovered this during the 1990′s. Anyway I thought you were against Capitalism full stop especially the sort of crony capitalism that is best represented by China and Russia.

      • darkhorse 18.1.2

        I did qualify the comment by saying “serious” governments.

        You sound like you might be acknowledging that state controlled capitalism – which is still far to the left of where the NZ Labour Party or the greens currently are – is a good thing.  It must be – because it is working.

        There are whole raft of other things for why it works

        It exploits its own people, it cheats at all of the normal conventions of commerce, it has an undervalued currency – a point lost on Polly the Parrot.  China has not got a floating currency – it manages it to give an advantage to its exporters and a penalty against importers – an undervalued currency is no different in effect than a tariff on imports and a subsidy on exports. Dear old Mug Kiwi aided by Polly the Parrot instead run an over-valued currency so we subsidize imports (through borrowing to fund our huge accumulated deficit) and penalize exports.

        As an illustration the NZ Dollar has appreciated by some 50% over the past three years against the US Dollar – why is that – did we strike oil, are our business leaders endowed with spectacular ability?  No Just stupid Polly and his mates allowing speculative cash to flow into the country, vast debt to be run up while the poor exporter who struggles to keep prats like Polly in the comfortable manner in which his obvious spare time suggests he lives.  Sure you can hedge – but that only fuels the speculative disease that has got us into this mess in the first place – and for every winner at a hedge there has to be a loser – minus the bankers commission both ways.

        • Gosman 18.1.2.1

          You quite obviously missed what I wrote about ‘State Capitalism’. I mentioned that the countries following it will eventually run in to it’s limits as it doesn’t tend to be very innovative or flexible. Also if you complain about the problems of crony capitalism in Western nations then this is writ large in countries following the ‘State Capitalism’ model.

          As to why the NZ dollar has appreciated, I think you will find that has more to do with what investors think about the US currency than the Kiwi. We tend to follow closely the Australian dollar and that has shot up due to Chinese demand for raw materials. Very little to do with speculation but then you would know that if you understood markets beyond the superficial level you have shown.

          BTW you never responded to my pointing out about how Goldman Sachs is still active in Russia. Do you now acknowledge that your view they were thrown out is inaccurate?

          • darkhorse 18.1.2.1.1

            By the time china runs into its limits we will have well and truly exceeded ours – it will own us.  I think you will also find that China’s leadership is far more assertive, forward looking and managerial than anything in the west and if things aren’t working out for it it will just go to war.  You see Gosman you are a narrow thinker – they are not.  China has won all of the (proxy) wars (Vietnam Korea) it has been in the past half century simply because it can win by attrition, the same way Stalin won the second world war over a pile of russian bodies.  If China can’t get what it wants the easy way it will take it the hard way.  They have no scruples and do not believe in your foolish dogma =- they use the bits that work for them and discard the rest – or more craftily because they are both clever and cunning they use the fatal flaws in your dogma to their advantage,

            As an example our indebted currency which should be folowoing the drachma down the drain soared as you note while Chinas which should be through the roof is still as steady as ever

            I am also not an advocate for chinese state capitalism or the post soviet model either – just pointing out that these two entities are at present in ascendance while we are not – they are buying us out at a staggering rate. 

            And Goldman Sachs is a metaphor for reform – sure they still have a presence in Russia but not the influence that they exercised in the 80′s and 90′s which was the point I was making = apologies if it was too subtle for you.

            And as for lacking proof I haven’t seen Polly’s list of beneficial foreign investments in NZ yet and you haven’t provided one either and if it was so blindingly obvious that such investment was so good that would be easy. 

    • Gosman 18.2

      BTW, as stated above, Russia never threw Goldman Sachs out. Goldman Sachs has a continued precence in the country. You need to check your facts before regurgitating them on here.

  19. captain hook 19

    doesn’t matter what sort of garbage you espouse the major concerns are:
    paying off the debt.
    heavy metal.
    nuclear contamination.
    species extinction.
    more war?
    you name it.
    up against the wall muthas…

    • Gosman 19.1

      ???

      I think you might need a lie down for a minute or so Captain hook.

  20. Eric Roy quoted in today’s Southland Times

    We’re making good progress in putting the economy on a more productive and competitive footing. And we’ve made early progress dealing with the long-term challenges facing many countries around the world.
    We are breaking our old habits around debt and consumption that marked much of the first decade of the 21st century.
    We are building our future around innovation, higher savings and exports.
    As one of the most indebted developed economies in the world, we don’t have a choice about that. Global markets will remain extremely nervous about debt for years to come and banks won’t be prepared to lend on the scale of the previous decade.

    He must be a raving socialist as Paul and Gosman are both convinced that we don’t have a debt problem and that free trade and corporate ownership of everything will solve all of our problems.  Arch-Trotskyist Eric clearly disagrees with these doyens of the free market.

    He goes on to say …

    Our economy would be affected if global growth weakened and export markets slowed further; or if growth in China slowed.  

    Heaven help us but our miraculously wonderful free market economy is utterly dependent on the continued strong performance of the socialist state-capitalist model in China.  But what happens when China hits the wall as Gosman so blithely predicts.  

    When this happens where do we, as a dag on the bum of the mighty beast China, end up?  I will leave that to your imagination but I could suggest it would be a dark place not far from the beast’s tail.

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    Frankly Speaking | 27-08
  • Why There is so Much Hate for John Key
    Kiwis, real Kiwis that is – not ‘Kiwis’ who have been living here for a couple of years, are mostly decent hard working and honest people.  They earn their living by getting out there and making a difference by what...
    An average kiwi | 27-08
  • The first head-to-head leaders’ debate – tonight!
    The first head-to-head debate between David Cunliffe and John Key (tonight, 7pm, TV One) could be a real turning point of the election. (Yes, I’m very biased.) But the fact is – ignoring questions about Mike Hosking’s moderation, and the...
    Boots Theory | 27-08
  • Why hasn’t Collins resigned?
    It seems highly unusual for a Minister of the Crown who has repeatedly transgressed and abused her position to still be a Minister. Not only has Judith Collins been found to have leaked the private information of a public servant...
    The Jackal | 27-08
  • 2014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #35A
    Act now on climate change or face growing health risks - UN Climate change may disrupt global food system within a decade Climate sceptics see a conspiracy in Australia's record breaking heat Cutting emissions pays for itself, research shows Greenhouse...
    Skeptical Science | 27-08
  • Legal Beagle: Crown appeals in criminal cases
    While the Crown has a lot of advantages in the criminal justice system - the resources and powers of the police foremost - many aspects of the system, are tilted in favour of a defendant - for example, the requirement...
    Public Address | 27-08
  • Election Transport Debate
    Last night was the Transport Election Debate and so this is a recap of what happened. Unfortunately it wasn’t filmed so we can’t put up a video for you all to watch. If I miss anything important please add it in...
    Transport Blog | 27-08
  • IPCC attribution statements redux: A response to Judith Curry
    I have written a number of times about the procedure used to attribute recent climate change (here in 2010, in 2012 (about the AR4 statement), and again in 2013 after AR5 was released). For people who want a summary of...
    Real Climate | 27-08
  • Gordon Campbell on Winston Peters’ latest bout of immigrant bashing, and ...
    So in the latest 3News-Reid Research poll, New Zealand First and the Conservatives have been the big winners. It is only one poll, but rather than cannibalising each other’s vote, Colin Craig and Winston Peters do seem to be managing...
    Gordon Campbell | 27-08
  • Democracy – Leonard Cohen
      Because I've just come back from Nicky Hager's extraordinary public meeting in the Mt Eden War Memorial Hall, here's Lenny's magnificent paean to the democratic ideal. If it's coming to the USA - why not here too? Sail on, sail on,...
    Bowalley Road | 27-08
  • The Pilgrim Of Light: Nicky Hager And New Zealand Politics
    Admonishing Angel: Nicky Hager descends periodically to trouble our consciences and wreak merry havoc with the orderly conduct of our political affairs. But, more than any other journalist in New Zealand, he has taught us to read the actions of...
    Bowalley Road | 27-08
  • Positive!
    The public are being turned off by dirty politics. Our opponents are scum, but let's focus on the issues....
    Imperator Fish | 27-08
  • Lack of information on Port of Tauranga death extremely concerning
    The Maritime Union is extremely concerned about the lack of public information about a Tauranga port worker who died last week....
    MUNZ | 27-08
  • Climate Change: the Terminological Timeline
    It is often said that a picture speaks a thousand words. The run of pictures below, it is hoped, will do a little more. They exist as a counterpoint to that laziest of claims - that, a few years ago,...
    Skeptical Science | 27-08
  • Stuart’s 100 #15 Understanding the City Link Bus a s a Tram on Rubber Whe...
    15: Understanding the City Link Bus as a Tram on Rubber Wheels What if the red city link bus was more like a tram on rubber wheels? Ok, so trams do have wheels, steel ones on rails. But bear with...
    Transport Blog | 27-08
  • World News Brief, Wednesday August 27
    Top of the AgendaAfghan Candidate Threatens to Withdraw...
    Pundit | 27-08
  • No surprises in Te Tai Tonga poll
    Native Affairs promised, prior to the election campaign, that they’d be polling all seven Maori seats this election. On Monday they released their results for the Te Tai Tonga electorate, currently held by Labour’s Rino Tirikatene. Unsurprisingly, Labour has a healthy...
    Occasionally erudite | 27-08
  • Careering to the right …
    A (long) post about Nicky Hager's book "Dirty Politics' on The Standard. http://thestandard.org.nz/tewharewhero-careering-to-the-right/...
    Te Whare Whero | 27-08
  • No healthy economy without a healthy environment
    Labour recognises that we cannot have a healthy economy without a healthy environment, says Environment spokesperson Moana Mackey announcing Labour’s environment policy. “New Zealand’s economy has been built on the back of the enormous environmental wealth we collectively enjoy as...
    Labour | 28-08
  • Better protection, fairer deal for Kiwi consumers
    Tackling excessive prices, ensuring consumers have enough information to make ethical choices and giving the Commerce Commission more teeth are highlights of Labour’s Consumer Rights policy. “The rising cost of living is a concern for thousands of Kiwi families. A...
    Labour | 28-08
  • Media Advisory – MANA Movement Candidate for Waiariki Annette Sykes, Waia...
    Media are advised that this coming weekend, the MANA Movement Candidate for Waiariki, Annette Sykes, will be on the Internet MANA Road Trip within the electorate of Waiariki. Speakers confirmed are Annette Sykes, Hone Harawira, John Minto, Laila Harre and Kim...
    Mana | 27-08
  • Internet MANA – Waiariki Road Trip: 29, 30, 31 Aug 2014
    The Internet MANA Road Trip hits Waiariki this weekend. It would be great if all MANA members in Waiariki could especially attend the public meetings and show their support for our Waiariki candidate Annette Sykes. Confirmed speakers Hone Harawira (except Taupo), Annette...
    Mana | 27-08
  • First home buyers $200 a week better off with Labour
    A couple earning around $75,000 a year would be $200 a week better off buying a two bedroom terraced Labour KiwiBuild home instead of an equivalent new build under National’s housing policy, says Labour Leader David Cunliffe.  “National’s policy to...
    Labour | 26-08
  • Another Day – Another big power profit
    The latest profit announcement from Genesis Energy shows that the power company was sold for a song to the detriment of the country’s power consumers, says Labour’s Energy spokesperson David Shearer. “A net profit of $ 49.2 million follows hard...
    Labour | 26-08
  • Labour embraces the rainbow
    Labour will work hard to ensure all New Zealanders enjoy the freedom to grow up and live their lives in dignity and security. Labour’s Rainbow policy, released tonight in Wellington, focuses on International Relations, Human Rights and Education....
    Labour | 26-08
  • National gets fast and loose with the facts
    In their desperation to make it look as though they are doing something about the housing crisis, National is playing fast and loose with the facts, says Labour’s housing spokesperson Phil Twyford....
    Labour | 26-08
  • Labour will drop power prices for Kiwi families
    New Zealanders will get cheaper power prices under NZ Power, says Labour Leader David Cunliffe. “The electricity market is clearly broken. With falling demand for electricity, prices should be going down. Instead prices are going up and companies are extracting...
    Labour | 26-08
  • Labour: Promoting sustainable tourism
    Ensuring New Zealand’s clean, green status continues to be an international tourism benchmark and reviewing MBIE’s oversight of the tourism sector will be on the radar under a Labour Government. Releasing Labour’s Tourism policy today, spokesperson Darien Fenton said tourism...
    Labour | 26-08
  • Skills shortage a result of National’s complacency
    The fact that there is still a severe shortage of skilled tradespeople, despite a growth in the number of apprentices, is a result of National’s failure to plan and develop the workforce, Grant Robertson, Labour Employment, Skills and TrainingSpokesperson says."The...
    Labour | 26-08
  • How much tax does John Key pay compared to a minimum wage worker?? – Mint...
    MANA Movement Economic Justice spokesperson John Minto is calling for a radical overhaul of New Zealand’s taxation system with calculations showing that a minimum wage worker pays a ten times higher tax rate than the Prime Minister. o Minimum wage...
    Mana | 25-08
  • Labour’s culture of science and innovation
    Labour will create a culture of science and innovation in New Zealand that will be the envy of the world, says Labour’s Innovation, Research and Development spokesperson Megan Woods. “Labour believes that good science lies at the heart of a...
    Labour | 25-08
  • Improving life for our new New Zealanders
    New Zealand’s international standing as a community that encourages and fosters all cultures will be bolstered under a Labour Government with an upgrade of the present Office of Ethnic Affairs to a Ministry. Releasing Labour’s Ethnic Affairs policy, spokesperson Phil...
    Labour | 25-08
  • South Auckland housing crisis
    National’s HomeStart package is nothing more than a political stunt designed to beguile South Auckland voters, said Labour’s Pacific Affairs spokesperson Su’a William Sio. “Few working Pasifika and Maori workers in South Auckland will be able to buy their own...
    Labour | 25-08
  • Home buyer subsidy discredited in Oz
    Treasury advised against National’s policy of ramping up home buyer subsidies after it was discredited in Australia because it pushed house prices even higher, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “Documents released under the OIA (attached) show Treasury advised the...
    Labour | 25-08
  • Nursing hours explain turnover and high-stress culture
    A staff survey supports concerns nursing staff at Dunedin Hospital are under increasing pressure and that the emergency department is in a critical state, says Labour’s Associate Health Spokesperson David Clark.  “An ED nursing survey at Dunedin found that 80...
    Labour | 24-08
  • Underhand tactics prove case for axing donations
    Revelations that schools are using underhand tactics to coerce donations from cash-strapped parents further highlights the need for Labour's plan to increase funding so they aren't dependent on contributions from parents, Labour's Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “By law New...
    Labour | 24-08
  • National applies band-aid to housing crisis
    The Government’s flagship housing announcement is a band-aid approach that will push up prices rather than solve the housing crisis, says Labour Leader David Cunliffe. “House sales to first home buyers have collapsed as a direct result of the Government’s...
    Labour | 24-08
  • Climate change focus on the now for the future
    A Labour Governmentwill put in place a comprehensive climate change strategy focusing on bothmitigation and adaptation, establish an independent Climate Commission andimplement carbon budgeting, says Labour Climate Change spokesperson MoanaMackey."This is about future-proofing our economy. Making the transition to alow-carbon...
    Labour | 24-08
  • Labour’s 21st century transport pledge
    The next Labour-led Government will create a 21st century transport system for New Zealand that promotes the most efficient and sustainable combination of transport options, says Labour’s Transport spokesperson Phil Twyford. “Labour will rebalance the Government's transport spending away from...
    Labour | 23-08
  • Housing under National: the facts
    1.       House prices in Auckland Council valuations indicate Auckland house prices have gone up by one-third over the last three years. (Auckland Council) The average Auckland house price has gone up by nearly $225,000 since 2008, up over $75,000 in...
    Labour | 23-08
  • Labour irons out low income tax issue
    The increasing casualisation of work has led to many New Zealand families being disadvantaged through the tax they pay, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. "Many low paid workers are having to work two or three jobs to make ends meet...
    Labour | 22-08
  • Cornered Government comes out swinging
    The National Government is so desperate to keep its dead-in-the-water expert teachers policy alive, it has refused to rule out forcing schools to participate through legislation, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “John Key today attacked the Educational Institute for...
    Labour | 22-08
  • Pacific people continue to go backwards under National
    A report from Victoria University highlights the fact that Pacific people are continuing to go backwards under a National Government, said Labour’s Pacific Affairs spokesperson Su’a William Sio.  “The report shows the largest inequality increases were in smoking, obesity, tertiary...
    Labour | 22-08
  • Wellington transport plan needs to keep moving
    The failure of the Transport Agency to properly look at alternatives to the Basin Reserve flyover is not a good reason for further delays to improving transport in Wellington, Labour MPs Grant Robertson and Annette King say. “The Board of...
    Labour | 22-08
  • Labour’s focus on inequality, kids and better job prospects
    Tackling child poverty and removing barriers to people working part time to enhance their prospects of moving into a fulltime job are highlights of Labour’s Social Development policy. Releasing the policy today, spokesperson Sue Moroney said while part-time work was...
    Labour | 21-08
  • Political staff should give answers under oath
    The Inspector General of Security and Intelligence should use her full statutory powers to question witnesses under oath about the leak of SIS information, says Labour MP Phil Goff. “Leakage of confidential information from the SIS for political purposes is...
    Labour | 21-08
  • High dollar, hands-off Govt sends workers to dole queue
    The loss of up to 100 jobs at Croxley stationery in Auckland is devastating news for their families and the local Avondale community, Labour’s Employment, Skills and Training spokesperson Grant Robertson says. “The company’s inability to compete in international markets...
    Labour | 21-08
  • National’s flagship education policy dead in the water
    National’s plan to create executive principals and expert teachers is effectively dead in the water with news that 93 percent of primary teachers have no confidence in the scheme, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “The fact that teachers are...
    Labour | 21-08
  • Dunedin will be a knowledge and innovation centre under Labour
    Dunedin will become a knowledge and innovation centre under a Labour Government that will back local businesses, support technology initiatives and fund dynamic regional projects, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. “Nowhere has the National Government’s short-sightedness been more apparently than...
    Labour | 21-08
  • Inquiry into SIS disclosures the right decision
    Labour MP Phil Goff says the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has done the right thing by launching an inquiry into the disclosure of SIS documents about a meeting between himself and the agency’s former director-general. “This inquiry is necessary...
    Labour | 20-08
  • Labour – supporting and valuing carers and the cared for
    Placing real value on our elderly and the people who care for them will be a priority for a Labour Government, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. Releasing Labour’s Senior Citizens policy today David Cunliffe promised that a Labour Government would...
    Labour | 20-08
  • By Hoki! It’s Labour’s fisheries policy
    A Labour Government will protect the iconic Kiwi tradition of fishing by improving access to the coast, protecting the rights of recreational fishers and reviewing snapper restrictions, Labour’s Fisheries spokesperson Damien O’Connor says. “Catching a fish from the rocks, beach...
    Labour | 20-08
  • Mighty River – Mighty Profits – Mighty hard to swallow
    Mighty River Power’s profit increase of 84 per cent is simply outrageous, says Labour’s Energy spokesperson David Shearer. “Demand for electricity is flat or declining yet the company has made enormous profits. It is the latest power company to celebrate...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Collins’ actions were wrong, not unwise
    John Key’s moral compass remains off-kilter as he cannot bring himself to declare Judith Collins’ actions outright wrong, not simply ‘unwise’, said Labour MP Grant Robertson. “Under pressure John Key is finally shifting his stance but his failure to condemn...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Public servants behaving with more integrity than their masters
    The State Services Commission's new report on the integrity of our state services reflects the yawning gap between the behaviour of public servants and that of their political masters, Labour's State Services spokesperson Maryan Street says. “This report, which surveyed...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Phil Twyford Speech to NZCID
    "Labour's plan to build more and build better: how new approaches to housing, transport and urban development will deliver cities that work" Phil Twyford, Labour Party spokesperson on housing, transport, Auckland issues, and cities.  ...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Labour commits to independent Foreign Affairs and Trade
    “Labour is committed to New Zealand’s Foreign Affairs and Trade policy being independent and proactive, Labour’s Foreign Affairs spokesperson David Shearer says. “We are a small but respected country. Our voice and actions count in international affairs. Labour will take a...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Key must sack Collins over abhorrent actions
    The latest revelations that Judith Collins sent the contact details of a public servant to WhaleOil in a desperate attempt to divert media attention from a bad story is abhorrent, Labour MP Grant Robertson says. “John Key and Judith Collins...
    Labour | 19-08
  • It’s downhill from here under National
    The forecast drop in exports and predicted halving of growth shows that it’s downhill from here with National, Labour’s Finance spokesperson David Parker says. “Growth under this Government peaked in June and halves to two per cent in coming years....
    Labour | 19-08
  • John Key loses moral compass over Collins
    John Key has lost his moral compass over Judith Collins’ involvement with Cameron Slater and lost touch with New Zealanders’ sense of right and wrong, Labour MP Grant Robertson says. “Whoever is Prime Minister there are expectations they will not...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Mana Movement General Election 2014 List confirmed
    The MANA List is now confirmed with all the candidates as below (the numbers are the respective Internet MANA rankings). Candidate, Electorate, Internet MANA List Position Hone Harawira, Te Tai Tokerau (1) Annette Sykes, Waiariki (3) John Minto, Mt Roskill (4) Te Hamua Nikora, Ikaroa-Rawhiti...
    Mana | 18-08
  • PREFU likely to confirm dropping exports
    National’s economic management will be put under the spotlight in tomorrow’s PREFU given clear signs the so-called rock star economy has fallen off the stage, with plummeting prices for raw commodity exports, Labour’s Finance spokesperson David Parker says. “Under National,...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Record profits while Kiwis face a cold winter
    The record profits by two of New Zealand’s largest electricity companies will be a bitter pill for New Zealand households who are paying record amounts for their power, says Labour’s Energy spokesperson David Shearer. “No doubt the Key government will...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Time for John Key to answer yes or no questions
    John Key’s train-wreck interview on Morning Report shows he is no longer capable of a simple yes or no answer and has lost touch with what’s right and wrong, Labour MP Grant Robertson says. “John Key has become so media...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Key must clarify who signed out SIS OIA
    Yet again John Key is proving incapable of answering a simple question on an extremely important issue – this time who signed off Cameron Slater’s fast-tracked SIS OIA request on Phil Goff, said Labour MP Grant Robertson. “John Key’s claim...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Time to invest in our tertiary education system
    A Labour Government will fully review the student support system – including allowances, loans, accommodation support and scholarships – with a view to increasing access and making the system fair, transparent and sustainable, Labour’s Tertiary Education spokesperson Maryan Street says....
    Labour | 17-08
  • Labour will facilitate regional Māori economic development agencies
    The next Labour Government will facilitate the creation of regional Māori economic development groups lead by iwi and hapū to work in partnership with business and public agencies as part of its Māori Development policy. “Labour is committed to working towards...
    Labour | 16-08
  • PRIME MINISTER’S DENIAL AT ODDS WITH NATIONAL PARTY STATEMENT
    Labour’s New Zealand Council has today released an email from the General Manager of the National Party that directly contradicts recent statements from the Prime Minister in relation to the 2011 breaches of Labour Party website databases. In his stand-up...
    Labour | 16-08
  • How many taxpayer funded staff does John Key need to prepare for a Leaders ...
    John Key is currently at the Auckland Stamford Plaza with 40 staff, 4 undercover police cars and an entire floor booked out in preparation for tonights Leader’s debate. Isn’t 40 staff including coms, flown up to Auckland for a debate...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • A brief word on National Party Rodney MP, Mark Mitchell
    MP considers legal action against Nicky HagerThe National MP says he is considering taking a defamation case after the September 20 election.“Someone needs to be held accountable,” he said. Oh really champ? Brothers and sisters, there is a long way...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Greens advertise on Whaleoil – but not on The Daily Blog?
    PaknSave have shown ethical compass and blocked adverts on Whaleoil, yet the Greens are advertising on Whaleoil, and not The Daily Blog? I would imagine there are far more potential Green voters on The Daily Blog then ever are on...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • It’s about the stupid economy stupid
    In focus group meetings, the sleepy hobbits of NZ by a staggering amount all believe that National are better economic stewards of the country than Labour, that’s why, instead of answering questions about blackmailing MPs, trawling brothels for dirt on...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Labour Policy vs National Policy
    John Key’s favourite defence spin at the moment is people want to talk about policy and not hear answers on the ethics of trawling brothels, why Slater was given SIS information, blackmailing MPs into standing down, rigging candidate elections and hacking...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • The Green Room live streamed on TDB 6.30pm tonight for First Leaders debate
    The ‘Green Room’ will stream 6.pm tonight on The Daily Blog during the TV One leaders’ debate.Use #GreenRoomNZ to join in. The Green Room will be hosted by media commentator Russel Brown, and will feature Green Co-leaders Metiria Turei and Russel Norman responding...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Manukau East – the next Coalition in action
    A couple of weeks ago I had the pleasure of opening Voice Up – a youth forum run by young people in Otara. I had been asked as Chair of the Local Board to set the scene, encouraging young people...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Kelly Ellis – The Big Bang Theory
    It’s a shame that it took a brain injury for me to start seeing things with such startling clarity. The realisation that lawyering, fishing, parenting, selling cars and racing yachts had common themes was stunning. Not perhaps as stunning as...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, how much Key aro...
    Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking on Radio Hauraki...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • 5AA Australia – New Zealand’s Dirty Politics Aftermath and Polls
    MIL OSI – Source: Selwyn Manning – Analysis Headline: 5AA Australia – New Zealand’s Dirty Politics Aftermath and Polls 5AA Australia: On this week’s Across the Ditch bulletin on 5AA Australia, host Peter Godfery and Selwyn Manning discuss the aftermath...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • La’o Hamutuk calls for inquiry into Timor GAP ‘mismanagement’ of oil ...
    The Suai project on the South Coast … “liberated” land but confused communities.Photo: La’o Hamutuk David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific. AN INDEPENDENT Timor-Leste development and social justice agency has called for an inquiry into the Timor GAP corporation...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • What Is Nicky Hager?
    WHAT WILL HISTORY MAKE of Nicky Hager? That slight, perpetually boyish, journalist who descends periodically, like the admonishing angel in a medieval mystery play, to trouble our consciences and wreak merry havoc with the orderly conduct of our political affairs....
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Can anyone in msm explain how after Dirty Politics that they all got played...
    Would you not think, that after reading Dirty Politics, that our mainstream media wouldn’t allow themselves to get tricked and played again by the VERY SAME discredited pundits? The best new feature on Radio NZ is their ‘Blog Watch’ and their...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Crusher Collins caught out lying about Privacy Commissioner – is this her...
    Crusher angry. Crusher smash own career. Crusher more angry. You would think that after getting outed as such a nasty, vicious piece of work in Dirty Politics, that Crusher would be scrambling to dial back the lies and manipulations. Apparently...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Cunliffe vs Key – first leaders debate
    This is your election ‘moderator’ – just one more reason an incoming Government need to sack everyone at TVNZ and reform it into an actual public broadcaster. The first leaders debate happens this Thursday, 7pm on TV One. I have...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – An Old and Honourable Profession
      When Dirty Politics started to reference an ex-prostitute I began to get antsy. My first response was “come on Nicky, we decriminalised in 2003. Its sex worker.” My second response was “Ah oh. Who was it and did they...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • Bought and paid for: the dirty politics of climate denial
    Has climate denial in New Zealand been bought and paid for by corporate interests? We already know that the ACT Party’s routine denial is closely linked to the financial support the party receives from wealthy free market fundamentalist Alan Gibbs,...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • If the msm read The Daily Blog, THIS wouldn’t be a surprise – explainin...
    Yawn. How embarrassing for Hamish Rutherford and Andrea Vance, their breathless article today suggests that the idea of Labour and NZ First cutting a  deal over the buy back of assets  is some how new news. Silly mainstream media  journalists. If...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • How much tax does John Key pay compared to a minimum wage worker??
    Yesterday I did some calculations to find out what tax John Key pays compared to a worker on the minimum wage. And I put out this media release for the Mana Movement: MANA Movement Economic Justice spokesperson John Minto is...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • Hip hop death threats – the selective outrage of our media
    PM death threat in hip hop songAn Auckland hip-hop crew slammed for releasing a song with lyrics that apparently include a threat to kill Prime Minister John Key are urging young people to enrol to vote. Kill The PM, by...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • Watch Slater turn into Key right before your eyes
    Watch Slater turn into Key right before your eyes...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • I don’t always agree with Patrick Gower – but he didn’t deserve this!
    I don’t always agree with Patrick Gower – but he didn’t deserve this weird spear tackle from behind by his own company. I was listening to this interview at the time, and the awkwardness of it must be the worst...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • Is it weird Radio NZ ban me yet still have….
    Is it weird Radio NZ ban me for life because I criticised the Prime Minister yet still have Matthew Hooton, David Farrar and Jordan Williams, 3 of the main protagonists revealed in Dirty Politics as part of their ongoing political...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Christchurch GCSB meeting – why mass surveillance matters in 2014
    This is the video for last weeks GCSB meeting in Christchurch. Don’t forget Nicky Hager’s public meeting Wednesday night in Auckland, TDB will live stream the event in the interests of our democracy. Broadcast starts 7.30pm here on TDB....
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Assange, Greenwald to appear at Town Hall meeting? + KDC is not the hacker ...
    Wikileaks founder and the engineer of revealing some of the largest abuses of power in the modern era, Julian Assange, is rumoured to be appearing at the September 15th Town Hall meeting. Assange would join award winning investigative journalist Glen...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Why Paula Bennett will be the next leader and Hooton throws the Prime Minis...
    I don’t think the public have any idea of the behind the scenes meltdown now occurring within National. There are plenty of decent right wingers who all have ethical standards who have looked at what their leaders have been doing and...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Rolinson – That Awkward Feeling When Your Campaign Goe...
    Urgh. It’s a thankless and nearly impossible task politically firefighting some days. Somebody (who isn’t you, but who’s in your care, or whom you’ve got a close professional relationship with) does or says something stupid; somebody from the Media’s there...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Trinder – Dirty politics goes viral
    Join the latest social networking craze this election that every Dog Cat and Jabba is putting on their facebook pages.     Joe Trinder – Ngāti Awa Born and born in Ōtepoti Ōtākou, Ex RNZN he is an Information Technology...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Blogwatch: An open letter to David Farrar: Please, be that guy
    Dear David, In light of  Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics, you wrote a blog entitled ‘Some changes on Kiwiblog’ and you suggested it was time to tighten up ship on your website, saying “I want to improve trust in myself,...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • What The Hell Was That! Reflections on the media’s coverage of the Intern...
    WHAT, EXACTLY, DO WE KNOW about the confrontation outside Internet-Mana’s campaign launch? Well, we know the news media was there in force. We also know Internet-Mana’s media person, Pam Corkery, blew her stack. We know that Corkery’s outburst led the...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • NZ First candidate – homophobic, bennie bashing anti-intellectual clown
    Oh God, apart from Ron Mark, Tracey Martin, Curwen Rolinson and Winston before midday, the woeful cavalcade of political circus freaks NZ First seem to attract has picked up another hitchhiker. This time Epsom candidate Cliff Lyon who said this about Labour… “If...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Nicky Hager Public Meeting LIVESTREAM on The Daily Blog 7.30pm Wednesday 27...
    As part of our commitment to the 2014 Election debate, The Daily Blog will Livestream the Nicky Hager public meeting in Auckland, 7.30pm live from the Mt Eden War Memorial this Wednesday on this site. Doors open at 7pm. It...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Rolinson – Opening Night. It’s like an opera!
    On Saturday night just gone, we collectively experienced one of the premier panegyrys of political pageantry in our three yearly electoral cycle. For one glorious weekend evening every three years, it’s not the All Blacks or some Super 14 team, or...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, Unions – what ...
    Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking on Radio Hauraki...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Timor-Leste’s Parliament handed ‘humiliating’ defeat over harsh media...
    East Timorese journalists raise their hands to approve the Timor-Leste JournalistCode of Ethics in October 2013. Photo: Tempo Semanal/Cafe Pacific   David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific. PACIFIC SCOOP reported this week that East Timor’s Appeal Court had scrapped...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • THIS is why we need a public broadcaster!
    The richest 20% of us in NZ own 70% of the wealth, with 18% in the hands of the second richest quintile, and 10% in the hands of the middle quintile. Just 2 per cent was owned by people in...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • A vote for Key is a vote for this
    A vote for Key is a vote for this...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • Why the Secret Intelligence Service feeding Cameron Slater information is s...
    Folks, it doesn’t matter if you are Right or Left, the issue of the Secret Intelligence Service being forced to feed a far right hate speech merchant like Cameron Slater with sensitive information is an ‘us’ issue. The SIS are...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • How lost and irrelevant are ACT?
    So ACT had it’s ‘launch’. Well, what passes as an ACT launch these days. Lot’s of anorak’s with that 1000 yard star and dreams of a Milton Friedman Free Market dancing behind their eyelids all crammed into a room small...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • National Party rowing advert aimed at Gen Xers
    Unkind wags such as myself would suggest that if the above were a real representation of National, it would look more like this…   National know they have the rural mob and the angry provincial vote locked in, with their...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • National Housing propaganda – McGehan Close Revisited
    .   . Housing has become a major, defining issue in New Zealand. We have critical shortages and escalating prices in  in the main centres and falling house values in the regions. The National government has addressed the supply &...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • The boldest, most creative and dynamic policy on employment for two generat...
    If you watched TV news last night you could be forgiven for thinking that a circus was on when Internet MANA launched its election campaign today. The reporting was abysmal but I won’t rehash it here because it’s been described...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • Call for Aaron Bhatnagar’s resignation from govt body
    .   . One of the many sordid “bit”-players in Nicky Hager’s book, “Dirty Politics“, and one of Cameron Slater’s inner-cabal, is businessman, National Party card-carrying cadre,  and former city councillor, Aaron Bhatnagar; . . In 2008, Bhatnagar was caught...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • Internet MANA announce free tertiary education & full employment – me...
    Internet MANA launch their campaign after an extraordinary road tour and after gaining 4% in the Colmar Brunton Poll, today should have been the start point for a momentous occasion  in progressive political history. It was, but sadly most won’t...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • Privilege denies true representation of disability rights
    The human right of people with disabilities in New Zealand has come back into the spotlight by the Human Rights Commission. The report named ‘Making Disability Rights Real’ highlights some of the main issues as being adequate data collection, accessibility,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-08
  • Election TV campaign ads – Opening Night
    . .The infamous National Party ‘Dancing Cossacks’ Attack advert  NZ, 23 August -  The election campaign “kicked off” on Saturday evening, with a one hour “televisual feast”. Party advertisements were broadcast for National, Labour, Greens, NZ First, United Future/Peter Dunne,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-08
  • Blogging vs Journalism vs Politics – The 7 latest revolting revelations
    So we now enter the most dangerous phase for National, the phase where the minutia of detail is so great now, the media have all the ammunition to keep asking questions that clearly show Key isn’t being honest in his...
    The Daily Blog | 23-08
  • A positive story of political co-operation!
    .   . Wellington, NZ, 23 August - The following is a true story and shows how the natural inclination of the rank-and-file of our main left-wing parties is to work together… I’ve been in contact with both the Green...
    The Daily Blog | 23-08
  • “Dirty Politics” – the fall-out continues…
    . . As the shock-wave from Nicky Hager’s book, “Dirty Politics” continues to engulf everything in it’s path, it’s worthwhile looking at the damage caused by the ever-expanding fallout… Fallout Dispersal Zone: 1oom Farrar wrote on 19 August  (and later...
    The Daily Blog | 23-08
  • #TeamKey’s sinking boat
    #TeamKey’s sinking boat...
    The Daily Blog | 23-08
  • National: Not our Future Marches across New Zealand
    Three weeks before the election, action is being taken across the country voicing a rejection of the National Government's track record and direction. Rallies are being held in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin to oppose National's...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Tune in to tonight’s debate from 7pm
    The countdown is on! You can watch the first leader’s debate for 2014 tonight, 7pm, on TV One ....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Gamblefree Day 1 September
    It's Gamblefree Day this Monday 1 September, the national awareness day for problem gambling in New Zealand. While traditionally celebrated on the first day of September, many events and activities are held both before and after this day to raise...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Success through captioning should be a given as a Right
    Success through captioning should be a given as a Right per the Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Alcohol Marketing Committee Questions Government’s Motives
    An Independent Expert Committee on Alcohol Advertising and Sponsorship (IECAAS) has been formed out of concern amongst alcohol and public health researchers about the government’s Ministerial Forum on Alcohol Advertising and Sponsorship (MFAAS)....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • How Much Higher Can Auckland Prices Go?
    National's plan to liberalise the use of Kiwisaver funds and its proposal to raise ts cheap "Welcome Home" loan thresholds to help buyers purchase a new home has been welcomed by home building companies but attacked as a "welfare scheme...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • OPC submission period extended
    We have extended the submission period for the modified reassessment of a bee control affecting five organophosphate and carbamate insecticides (APP202142)....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Vinay Deobhakta struck off roll of barristers and solicitors
    The New Zealand Lawyers and Conveyancers Disciplinary Tribunal has ordered former Tauranga lawyer Vinay Deobhakta to be struck off the roll of barristers and solicitors....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Major parties to front up for Climate Voter election debate
    New Zealand’s main political parties will take part in ‘The Great Climate Voter Debate’ on September 3....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Family violence… too big to be ignored
    As Annah Stretton gears up for her New Zealand Fashion Week show on Thursday she is utilizing her spotlight to help change the face of family violence in this country saying “the problem is far too big to ignore”....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Candidate’s SOS to northern Maori voters: Save our seats!
    (Extract from address by Rev Te Hira Paenga to Kura Hourua Maori Political Leaders hui, in Whangarei this evening)....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Mary O’Neill to Stand for the Alliance in Napier
    The Alliance Party has confirmed Mary O’Neill as the Alliance candidate in the Napier Electorate for the 2014 election....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • TONIGHT [28/8/14]: The Great Political Comedy Debate
    It's a night for debating. You could stay home frowning at tonight's Leaders debate, or laugh it up with us at BATS!...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Cunliffe against personal responsibility over billboards
    The accusation by David Cunliffe that the Conservative Party is subscribing to a surveillance society by protecting its billboards via the use of motion sensor cameras reveals an anti-personal responsibility position by the about-to-be-retired Leader...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Groundbreaking health and climate conference
    The World Health Organization (WHO) is holding its first conference on climate change and health at its headquarters in Geneva this week, with New Zealand health experts in attendance....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Te Tai Tokerau Party
    Last night at the Leadership Academy of Company A debate Clinton Dearlove announced the creation of a new political party supported by Whanau and Hapu....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Significant fallout from Dirty Politics allegations
    Dirty politics ... costing National up to 3.8% of its pre-publication support Large numbers of New Zealanders are aware of and talking about the issues raised as a result of the publication of Nicky Hager’s book, Dirty Politics, according to...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Colin Craig is “deluded and dangerous” – Act
    “Colin Craig is proposing a radical transformation of our constitution. The Conservatives are proposing to overthrow of one hundred and fifty odd years of parliamentary democracy and replace it with binding referenda” said ACT Leader Dr Jamie Whyte....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • WoF law will evict the poor and students from their houses
    The Green warrant of fitness law will evict the poor and students from their houses, if they’re lucky enough to find a place to rent in the first place...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Police response to IPCA report on ‘out of control’ parties
    Police accept today's Independent Police Conduct Authority report recommendations regarding the handling of 'out of control' parties and has already improved its policies and practices for managing these complex and sometimes violent situations....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Review of Police handling of ‘out of control’ parties
    An Independent Police Conduct Authority review has found that Police are working to ensure officers called upon to deal with out of control gatherings in future are better trained to deal with the situations they may face....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Wynyard and NZ Police Announce Ground-breaking Partnership
    Auckland, 28 August 2014 - Wynyard Group, a market leader in advanced crime analytics software and services, today welcomed the New Zealand Police as a long term partner in its Crime Science Research Institute (CSRI)....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Polls confirm dirty politics out and the Conservatives in
    The latest 3News-Reid Research poll has the Conservative Party on 4.6 per cent which means they are virtually on their way to Parliament. Garth McVicar, the Conservative Party candidate for the Napier electorate believes the polls are proof that the...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Toke the Vote 2014: NORML’s guide to NZ cannabis policies
    NORML’s policy, renewed at our recent national conference , is to encourage supporters to vote for parties and candidates who will work to reform our cannabis laws....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Internet Mana List Embodies Modern Aotearoa
    An impressive mix of personal and professional skills, cultural backgrounds and ages marks the release of Internet MANA’s combined party list. “Our list highlights the calibre of talent woven throughout Internet MANA,” said leader Hone Harawira....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • The Dirty Politics Fallout
    Tonight’s 3News-Reid Research poll shows that the Conservative Party is on the verge of making it into the next Parliament, even without an electorate deal with National. The poll, conducted in the week following the release of Nicky Hager’s...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Te reo Māori trending at New Zealand Fashion Week
    Language and fashion express culture and identity so it’s fitting for the Māori Party to launch its te reo Māori policy at New Zealand’s premiere fashion event in Auckland....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Party And Candidate Lists for 2014 Election Released
    The Electoral Commission has released the nominations for the 2014 General Election, with 15 registered political parties and 554 candidates contesting the election....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Take Steps Against Child Poverty with Us!
    TAKE STEPS AGAINST CHILD POVERTY WITH US! Britomart to Aotea Square, Auckland, 11am, Saturday 6 Sept Music * Interactive Art * Stilt Walkers * Great Speakers * Plus more!...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Leading politicians to debate NZ’s role in the world
    Have you ever wondered where New Zealand stands when it comes to issues beyond our borders? Join Amnesty International's North Shore Group on Monday 1 September for a lively cross party debate and the chance to find out the answer...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Political Debate on Family Violence – Livestream
    The Dunedin Collaboration Against Family Violence is happy to announce the upcoming political debate on Family Violence chaired by Professor Nicola Atwool of the University of Otago. Family Violence is a huge problem in our community and we invite representatives...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Politicians ignore 20% of New Zealanders
    Despite 20% of New Zealanders supporting it, none of the parties currently represented in Parliament endorse the legalisation of cannabis....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Company tax rates
    The Op Ed pages of the left-leaning New York Times are full of articles by economists supporting proposals to dramatically lower Company Taxes. These economists are urging the United States to lower company taxes and point to Canada where the...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Stephen Dudley Case: No appeal or review of discharge
    On 8 August 2014 Crown Law received a request from the office of the Auckland Crown Solicitor to consider a Crown appeal against the discharge without conviction entered in respect of M in the High Court at Auckland on 7...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Dudley Family Statement
    “We are utterly devastated at the news regarding the law not allowing for this unjustified discharge without conviction to be appealed....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Chief Judge: Chief Sized Offender Bias
    “Justice by name, not by nature” states Ruth Money Sensible Sentencing Trust National Spokesperson, of Justice Helen Winkelmann’s decision to discharge without conviction the offender charged with the fatal attack on 15 year old schoolboy Stephen...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Confusion over BPS Reducing Crime and Reoffending Results
    A survey has revealed widespread confusion – even amongst professionals in the justice sector – about what the government’s reducing crime and reoffending progress reports actually mean....
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Commission condemns violent attack on Gay Wellingtonians
    The Human Rights Commission has condemned a violent attack on staff and patrons at a gay bar in central Wellington last Friday. GayNZ reported that the alleged attackers were abusive and violent when they realised the bar and the people...
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • One down, 12 to go says Community Housing Aotearoa
    The Waimahia Inlet is a step in the right direction for community housing to deliver 20% of New Zealand’s social and affordable housing by 2020, says Community Housing Aotearoa. CHA Director Scott Figenshow says the sector has been set a...
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Research considering changes to pedestrian crossing laws
    A University of Canterbury research project has been considering the costs and benefits of a range of potential changes to pedestrian crossing laws that would bring New Zealand in line with the rest of the world....
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Dairy farmers and consumers at risk from unapproved GE Grain
    The Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) must immediately test all maize and soy for presence of unapproved GE lines coming from the Americas....
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • NZ on Air Refuse to Condemn “Kill the PM” Song
    New Zealand On Air has refused to condemn @peace’s 'Kill the PM' song, and will not provide any assurance that no further taxpayer money will be used to support groups that promote violence and political hate. Earlier today the Taxpayers’...
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • iPredict Ltd 2014 Election Update #32
    The combined wisdom of iPredict’s 8000 registered traders suggests National has begun a recovery after its prospects crashed last week following the release of Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics . The governing party’s forecast party vote is back...
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Juicy carrot for prisoners alarming suggestion – McVicar
    The Conservative Party Justice Spokesman, Garth McVicar says the public will be alarmed to learn that the only tool the Corrections Department has available to get prisoners to behave is to offer them a juicy carrot....
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Panel: Fiji’s Return to Democracy
    Fiji’s post-coup elections and their impact in the Pacific o What is the role of the media in the Elections? o How might New Zealand help Fiji on its return to democracy?...
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Cross-party consensus on climate change critical
    Senior NZ health professionals welcome recent policy announcements on climate change by major political parties, saying cross-party consensus is critical to address this leading health issue....
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Minister of Transport to Attend Election Debate Tomorrow
    Organisers of tomorrow night's transport debate in Auckland are delighted that Minister of Transport Hon. Gerry Brownlee will now be attending....
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Society Applauds Proposed NZ-Wide Risk Assessment
    The Wise Response Society is heartened to see that Labour' just released Climate Change policy includes formal support for the Society's call for a New Zealand-wide Risk Assessment. The Green Party has also formally acknowledged support for the Wise...
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Iwi Leaders welcome Labour policy on climate change
    Labour’s policy to stamp out price – gouging by big polluters that has cost New Zealand tax-payers $1.4 billion over the last 3 years and especially impacted low – income Maori households has been welcomed by Dr. Apirana Mahuika, Chairman...
    Scoop politics | 26-08
  • Auckland Broadcasting Debate this Sunday
    Auckland Broadcasting Debate 6.30pm, August 31st 2014 (doors open 6.15pm) Pioneer Women's Hall High Street, Auckland City...
    Scoop politics | 26-08
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