The illusion of consultation

22 comments on “The illusion of consultation ”

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1. mike e 1

   4 August 2012 at 10:40 am

   this is the same argument national lost over the airwaves.
   so they know they can make themselves look good at the expense of the country
2. Pete George 2

   4 August 2012 at 11:19 am

   “Consultation” over water rights can continue (it’s being happening for some time through the Land and Water Forum) separate to the MOM Bill, it’s a wider issue.

   If there are found to be any valid claims for compensation for water in relation to the power SOEs the Government has to pay anyway, regardless of whether some shares are sold or not.
   • mike e 2.1

     4 August 2012 at 11:28 am

     Not necessarily the power companies should be paying to use the water .
   • Matthew Whitehead 2.2

     5 August 2012 at 12:39 pm

     Pushing the sales ahead before this decision is done undermines the rationale for the sales even further – that being that apparently the government thought they could make a decent parcel off the power companies- but the government will have to sell shares much cheaper if there’s no guarantee power companies won’t have to pay additional fees for water usage.

     The government is not the one liable for those fees if Maori have a legitimate claim to them, it’s whoever uses the water, ie. the power companies, which makes the equation for selling them look even more stupid.
     • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1

       5 August 2012 at 8:15 pm

       As it was never about the sales being a good idea I doubt if the parties selling us out care.
3. AmaKiwi 3

   4 August 2012 at 11:19 am

   The illusion of democracy.
    
   We live in a parliamentary dictatorship.  We can never win playing on their field by their rules.  Ghandi and Dr. Martin Luther King knew that, which is why they organized the people.  We must do the same.
    
   Penny Bright had a brilliant idea for disrupting the sale of Mighty River Power by getting consumers to switch from using Mercury to one of the two remaining state owned companies (Genesis and Meridian).  THIS WILL WORK!
   • tc 3.1

     4 August 2012 at 11:47 am

     Doubt it. The retail side makes peanuts compared to generation and Gerry/Stevie/Bill etc will just dip into consumers/taxpayers pockets to shore up any required shortfall.

     All you do is shift your business to another retailer, owned by a generator….see where this is going ?
     • AmaKiwi 3.1.1

       4 August 2012 at 11:58 am

       As someone with 40 years experience in share markets, I assure you no investor is interested in taking a chance on a company which is hated by its consumers.
        
       I invite you to propose a better tactic, but it must be around organizing people. Their system depends on the consumers being obedient. As a sign held up by a teenager protesting Nike’s use of sweatshop labor read: “Nike, we made you. We can break you.”
4. Pete George 4

   4 August 2012 at 11:34 am

   The Land and Water Forum…

   Who participates in the Land and Water Forum?

   The Land and Water Forum brings together a range of industry groups, electricity generators, environmental and recreational NGOs, iwi, scientists, and other organisations with a stake in freshwater and land management. They are joined by central and local government observers in developing a common direction for freshwater management in New Zealand and provide advice to the Government.

   The Land and Water Forum is the trading name for the Land and Water Trust. A Small Group, with representatives from 21 organisations, meets on a monthly basis and reports to the Plenary, which has a membership of 62 organisations. The Small Group is joined by active observers from local and central government. The Land and Water Forum members are assisted in their work by a Secretariat.
   The Forum’s Process

   The first phase of the Forum’s work lasted from August 2009 to August 2010 and resulted in the report A Fresh Start for Freshwater, which identifies a set of outcomes and goals for freshwater management and recommends a number of policy changes to achieve those. Public meetings to discuss the Forum’s Report were held around the country at the end of 2010 and the beginning of 2011.

   The government issued a response to the Forum’s recommendations in September 2011, and asked that it carries on its consensus-building work and come up with recommendations on the methods, tools and governance processes required for setting and managing limits on water quality and quantity.

   The Land and Water Forum will report to Government in the course of 2012, first on a general framework for setting limits, including the governance arrangements which would ensure the successful involvement of all stakeholders and in particular of iwi, and second on the methods and strategies required to achieve and manage those limits, through better land use management and improved allocation mechanisms.

   http://www.landandwater.org.nz/Site/About_Us/default.aspx

   …seems to be more than an illusio and seems to be consulting.
   • Colonial Viper 4.1

     4 August 2012 at 11:40 am

     That forum is about allocating the use of freshwater. Not whether or not National can sell off the water resource to foreigners as an intrinsic part of its asset sales.
   • bbfloyd 4.2

     5 August 2012 at 11:22 am

     looks more like an exercise in pr than any meaningful actions…. You can’t possibly be that thick to think this is genuine a consultative action from the asset stripper party….. they are simply using this as a decoy…. hence the ongoing timetable being recommended by the chief corporate raiders…

     As you well know, by the time they have come out with their next set of “guidelines” it will have become yet another pointless exercise in misdirection….which can then be quietly shelved, and forgotten about….

     Again…. you aren’t so thick to believe this is a sincere attempt to do right by the people….so the obvious conclusion is that you are, once more, attempting to make excuses for united futures complicity in the theft of the countries asset base…..

     I look forward to singing campfire songs with the huge crowd sitting around the bonfire as the effigies of the “bad hair” tribe burn…..
5. MrSmith 5

   4 August 2012 at 12:56 pm

   This issue is hurting the Nat’s, they will be trying to get it to court ASAP, the courts final decision win or lose will either enforce there mandate (well thats’ how they will betray it) or it will give them a reason to scrap the sales, so saving face, saying, look at us we listened to the people.

   This interesting thing will be to see if the public get in behind and support the Maori, to the same degree that people oppose these sales.
6. Matthew 6

   4 August 2012 at 1:34 pm

   Sounds like the way they treated the select committee process on the MOM asset sales.

   It is time the Attorney-General becomes an apolitical appointment in this country, so the Government can be reminded of their actual obligation to take this process seriously.
7. Draco T Bastard 7

   4 August 2012 at 1:46 pm

   Consultation with Maori, National style.

   Didn’t need the Māori in that sentence. National only ever consults it’s navel fluff (otherwise known as Treasury) as was shown by the asset sales select committee process.
8. AmaKiwi 8

   4 August 2012 at 3:16 pm

   When our parliamentary masters (of BOTH parties) repeatedly ignore what the majority of the people want, they condition us to internalize helplessness.
    
   Yes, we are largely helpless against parliamentary actions, but we are NOT helpless to influence social and political changes.
    
   National party “individualism” is blind to the degree to which we ALL depend on each other.  The least wealthy amongst us can thoroughly screw up the system by refusing to collect our garbage or clean the bedpans of our elderly or operate our trucks and buses and trains, etc.
    
   It is time to take back control from this government and from the Labour Party caucus.  The country belongs to all of us, not them.  We are all entitled to an equal say.
    
    
   • Draco T Bastard 8.1

     4 August 2012 at 5:53 pm

     +1

     Time to implement full democracy rather this democracy by the aristocrats.
   • blue leopard 8.2

     4 August 2012 at 11:50 pm

     Perhaps a couple of useful terms?

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
9. Lloyd 9

   4 August 2012 at 8:31 pm

   Since the National-Banks government is in such a hurry to sell off the people’s power companies they are pressing the Waitangi Tribunal to hurry their decision. Surely the same could apply to the government. Can’t we ask that the government hurry up the next election so that we can vote them out?
   • Draco T Bastard 9.1

     5 August 2012 at 12:23 am

     Damn good link. Describes modern representative democracy well.

     Wolin believes that the democracy of the United States is sanitized of political participation and refers to it as managed democracy. Managed democracy is “a political form in which governments are legitimated by elections that they have learned to control”.[10] Under managed democracy, the electorate is prevented from having a significant impact on policies adopted by the state through the continuous employment of public relations techniques
     • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1

       5 August 2012 at 8:16 pm

       You know, I’m pretty sure this one was a reply to 8.2 last night…
       • blue leopard 9.1.1.1

         6 August 2012 at 1:00 pm

         DTB

         Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good description of what we are facing.

         Another link, although directed at American issues, is becoming, sadly, easy to draw parallels here 🙁 ( I may post on this the “postcards” thread too)

         http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/democracy_in_america_is_a_useful_fiction_20100124/

         “And there is, of course, the culminating moment of national elections when the attention of the nation is required to make a choice of personalities rather than a choice between alternatives. What is absent is the political, the commitment to finding where the common good lies amidst the welter of well-financed, highly organized, single-minded interests rabidly seeking governmental favors and overwhelming the practices of representative government and public administration by a sea of cash.”
10. Frank Macskasy 10

    5 August 2012 at 10:01 am

    As has been pointed out elsewhere, National’s asset sales programme is it’s make-or-break moment. After several back-downs, it can’t afford to look weak in the public eye, so it will pay lip-service to “consultation” (which is a farce, as has been shown) and then proceed anyway.

    But I propose an alternative scenario. It may not please everyone, but it retains state ownership (in a form) as well as generating the income that National desires; http://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2012/08/05/investing-in-someone-elses-future/

    And in a funny way, it could save Key’s arse from a humilkiating electoral defeat…

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