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Time for Joyce to end the pipe-dream

Written By: - Date published: 12:13 pm, January 16th, 2013 - 62 comments
Categories: peak oil - Tags:

The oil and gas industry employs fewer people than have lost their jobs in manufacturing every 4 months under National. Yet, Joyce devotes all his efforts to doing favours for the foreign oil companies and ignores our local manufacturers. Now, another of the foreign oil companies has packed their bags. It’s a reminder that a resource is not a reserve. Just cause the oil’s there, doesn’t mean there’s money to be made from it.

Let me explain: an oil resource is oil or oil-like stuff that is in the ground. Most of this is too deep, too poor quality, too low pressure, or too difficult to get at to ever be brought to the surface. An oil reserve is stuff that the technology exists to extract. But that doesn’t mean it makes economic sense to do it, there’s a lot of oil that can’t be dug up without expending more energy in the process than you get from burning the oil once you have it. The oil that can economically extracted is a tiny fraction of what there is.

Most oil is simply too expensive to burn (and we’ve burned a good part of the stuff that isn’t too expensive to burn). And you can’t get around that with subsidies and tax cuts or ‘cutting red tape’  – it’s about the physics of hauling stuff up through miles of rock and sea.

There probably are hundreds of millions, if not billions of barrels of oil and oil-like stuff in the undeveloped offshore basins around New Zealand. But the fact that three major foreign oil exploration companies have now come here under National, had a look around and left without even bothering to do any drilling is a sign that bugger all of it is economic to extract.

If you can’t get oil companies interested in even verifying and exploring New Zealand’s oil resources at a time when oil prices are sitting near record levels, then what’s out there simply isn’t worth digging up.

Now, isn’t it time that National turned its focus to industries that a) we have the resources and skills for and b) are actually good for our economy because they employ locals rather than relying on foreign capital and c) aren’t about getting more of the stuff that is destroying our climate? Put down the pipe, Joyce, and focus on the real stuff.

62 comments on “Time for Joyce to end the pipe-dream”

  1. tc 1

    well said James but in Stevie wonders world it’s a cue for even bigger subsidies and maybe some onshore activity as they can’t admit another precious slogan is all BS.

    Watch them slide over the coal and mineral sands now as the economic saviour.

  2. Kevin Welsh 2

    So, even with our almost non-existent royalties and geological data provided for free, they STILL aren’t interested?

    • tc 2.1

      They’re probably after a better deal than the one they get now, the Hobbit effect.

      • SpaceMonkey 2.1.1

        Yep… and it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that it’s all been the game plan all along… or at least since the Hobbit “crisis” showed how spineless a Government New Zealand really has.

  3. Akldnut 3

    Apache has now withdrawn from the project, but will continue to fund the $120 million first phase.

    Phase one involved drilling four exploratory wells.

    John Roper, Apache’s manager of public affairs,…….. “We hope Tag is successful in this [New Zealand] project.”

    Tag spokesman Garth Johnson said the company would see through phase one of the project but could not commit to continuing with phase two until the first phase was completed.

    They are still funding 4 wells so IMO there will still be a get back in clause somewhere in the deal if they hit paydirt with some of them.

  4. Wayne (a different one) 4

    Ireland didn’t ignore the “pipe-dream” and have now found one massive oil reserve.

    The left are opposed to mining, yet scream when our young people flock to Australian mines in search of jobs and good money – you guys can’t have it both ways. We should be utilising our mining resources sensibly and, with the environment firmly in mind.

    We have an Education system, which the Teachers Union claim is second to none anywhere in the world, yet we have thousands of children leaving school each year who are effectively illiterate – who is going to employ these kids?

    The Teachers Union is one of the strongest in the country and, are self serving in opposing any changes to the Education system.

    Education is the key to our future, an Education system that will produce a skilled young labour force, because we cannot compete as an economy against the cheap labour markets of Asia etc.

    • One Tāne Huna 4.1

      Vayne, what the fuck do you know about education?

      Reality check: the single most important factor in education outcomes is household income.

      “Effectively illiterate” – says who? I don’t believe your biased drivel.

      Put up or shut up.

    • McFlock 4.2

      fuck sake, we’re supposed to copy Ireland AGAIN?
      They NEED the oil in order to pay off their failed neolib economic policies. One of the “I”s in “PIIGS”, remember?

      • Wayne (a different one) 4.2.1

        Sorry McFlock – Spain, Portugal, Greece and France, all Socialist Govts. You know like the Labour Party you so blindly and devoutly follow.

        Yes, Irelend was a basket case like the above, but they “followed the dream” and will now become a wealthy economy because of it.

        You can’t do it through taxing “rich pricks” for ever – because that delivers nothing but a lot of welfare.

        • Te Reo Putake 4.2.1.1

          Plenty of corporate welfare here, Wayne, but I’m sure you’re fine with that!. France got in the shit under a conservative gov’t, and the other nations all had periods under right wing governments. The problem isn’t the government, it’s capitalism.

        • McFlock 4.2.1.2

          Wow.
          love the historical revisionism there.

        • bad12 4.2.1.3

          Ireland you thick piece of s**t is in as much if not more trouble than the other PIGS countries, following the dream as you call it will lead to a sustained depression in that country for the next 10 years and only the usual suspects in the 1% will be enriched from the wee Irish experiment of becoming the British Mexico…

        • fatty 4.2.1.4

          Yes, Irelend was a basket case like the above, but they “followed the dream” and will now become a wealthy economy because of it.

          I don’t have much to add to this sentence.
          It made me laugh so hard that I thought it was worth reposting.

          Wayne, you appear to be an amusing person…please amuse us further by elaborating on how Ireland will now become wealthy?

        • SpaceMonkey 4.2.1.5

          Huh??!! Ok… just realised I’m in a parallel universe. Now to find the Unicorns in Candy Mountain…

        • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.6

          Yes, Irelend was a basket case like the above, but they “followed the dream” and will now become a wealthy economy because of it.

          No they won’t. They’ll become poorer exactly the same way that they did previously by following the “dream”.

        • Populuxe1 4.2.1.7

          Whyfore you use past tense, Wayne? Ireland’s property bubble totally screwed it. Threatening to bring down the whole EU economy is not quite the same thing as “become a wealthy economy”.

      • Descendant Of Sssmith 4.2.2

        we’re supposed to copy Ireland AGAIN?

        I look forward to trying some of those new fangled Irish burgers:

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/8184636/Horse-found-in-Irish-burgers

        You’re just a neighsayer McFlock.

        • tracey 4.2.2.1

          How is Key’s “Investment Hub” progressing, an idea borrowed from Ireland?

          “Key itching for quick action on financial hub
          By Fran O’Sullivan Email Fran
          5:30 AM Thursday Dec 2, 2010

          Prime Minister John Key has slammed bureaucratic pin-pricking over the proposed New Zealand financial services hub as “absolute rubbish” and stepped in to put the project on the fast-track.

          Economic Development Minister Gerry Brownlee has been ordered to produce an urgent paper covering a zero tax rating for the relevant foreign funds which Key wants incorporated in the November taxation bill and passed by April 1 next year. ”

          http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10691438
          then in May 2012

          ” John Key’s plan for a financial services hub in New Zealand would require years of taxpayer support and risks transferring wealth offshore, Treasury has warned the Government.

          The Government’s lead economic and financial policy agency advised that plans to pay international banks to move here represent “a wealth transfer from New Zealand taxpayers to overseas financial institutions”.

          Further, the touted benefits were highly uncertain.

          Following queries from the Sunday Star-Times last week, Key distanced the government from the controversial aspects of the plan.

          “The more costly aspects of the [hub] plan were not seen as an effective use of taxpayer money,” a spokesman said.

          The financial services hub proposal emerged after banker Craig Stobo told the Government’s 2009 Jobs Summit an economic boost would result if the Government created a zero tax rating for foreign investors who invested in international funds based here.

          In March 2010, Stobo was appointed chairman of an advisory group whose tasks specifically included determining what incentives were required by financial firms to implement the financial hub proposal by then Economic Development Minister Gerry Brownlee.

          Cabinet papers from the time note $500,000 was allocated to fund Stobo’s group. Brownlee awarded group members fees he characterised as “top of the range” of up to $655 a day. ”

          and of course when a paper or group didnt agree with our PM he said

          “Key’s frustration with officials who recommended the proposal be canned boiled over the following month when he reportedly told the audience at the International Business Forum that official advice criticising the hub was “absolute rubbish”. “

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3

      We should be utilising our mining resources sensibly and, with the environment firmly in mind.

      I agree but there’s a difference in what we mean. I mean that we should develop our resources in such a way so that the environment is damaged as little as possible and so that they’re available to our descendants while you mean that they should all be ripped up from the earth as fast as possible with absolutely no concern for the environment or our descendants to make some selfish arsehole rich.

  5. education is the key to our future, ,,, then why is national trying to privatise it and run it down????????????charter schools, please give examples of successful charter schools in low decile areas overseas!!

  6. Wayne (a different one) 6

    Because PA its failing our kids, so National are looking at options/solutions.

    Charter schools despite the Teachers Union diatribe, is a very sucessful model overseas (the USA as one example). Private schools here in New Zealand have delivered magnificent results.

    Hanging on to the past is not neccessarily going to be the best going forward.

    What is the fear – it can’t be any worse than we have now.

    • One Tāne Huna 6.1

      Charter schools …is a very sucessful (sic) model overseas…

      Says who? Put up or shut up.

    • Georgecom 6.2

      Gees Wayne, some fairly strong claims there but not a great deal of reality.

      NZ does have one of the best education systems in the world.

      We do however have underachievement in education. So does pretty much every other education system.

      So acknowledging that every education system has underachievement, our education system is actually one of the best in the world.

      The US and England have underachievement. Those are countries with things like National Standards and Charter Schools, for a number of years I might add.

      We are borrowing policies from countries with education underachievement. Let me repeat that, we are borrowing policies from countries which suffer education underachievement.

      We are borrowing policies which have none not much, ‘3/5 of 5/8 of not much’, to address the underachievement. Again, let me repeat myself. We are borrowing policies that have done not much at all to address education achievement.

      Lets hope the National-ACT Government goes on looking for solutions because thus far they have not found them. There are however some good local schemes that have been getting good results, reading recovery being one and Te Kotahitanga another. Lets hope the Nats stumble across them at some point.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3

      Hanging on to the past is not neccessarily going to be the best going forward.

      So why are you so determined to hang on to capitalism? It’s obviously failed every time it’s been tried.

    • tracey 6.4

      The chief advocate of charter schools in the US has become a champion against charter schools.

      “Private schools here in New Zealand have delivered magnificent results.” For those who can afford $15-25,000 per year in fees plus additional money once in school. How do you know how magnificent their results are when they don’t publish them?

  7. Wayne (a different one) 7

    OTH – by your language quite a lot more than you, that’s for certain.

    If my memory serves me correctly, the last quoted stats on ilteracy levels was in the order of 20%, but I stand to be corrected.

    I have businees collegues in the law profession, who quote of law graduates out of university being unable to construct proper sentences and, thses are supposed the well educated.

    I have put up, so instead of being igonrantly abusive, perhaps you could also put forward some constructive argument.

    But some how I don’t see it coming.

    • McFlock 7.1

      You are talking to whom?

    • PJ 7.2

      *illiteracy
      *business
      *colleagues
      *these
      *ignorantly

      “I have businees collegues in the law profession, who quote of law graduates out of university being unable to construct proper sentences and, thses are supposed the well educated.” -BAHAHAHAHAHA!

    • One Tāne Huna 7.3

      quoted stats on ilteracy levels was in the order of 20%

      Quoted by whom, your poor sad sap? I know who said it – and that they were lying, and I have very good sources that expose the lies, like Professor Terry Crooks, for example, but I’m interested in why you swallow lies like a lazy trout.

      A bored lightweight politician fed you a line. Don’t feel bad, just learn to be a bit less gullible.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.4

      I have put up,

      No you haven’t. What you’ve done is made some assertions which you’ve then failed to back up. Assertions, BTW, that have already been proven wrong in actual research and reality.

  8. end o times viper shorts 8

    from oil exploration and exploitation to education…. it most certainly is a slippery slope

    Best we blame the teachers

    • Wayne (a different one) 8.1

      All I here on this website is the snivelling and whineing of left losers – who have not put up one constructive argument.

      There is not one shred of an idea as to how the left propose to, so call fix the economy.

      It’s easy and natural for people with no values or an ounce of self pride to moan and grizzle about everything that is wrong in the world.

      If you are so unhappy about things, get of your arses and do something about it.

      [lprent: Read the policy. So far I haven’t seen you do anything apart from act like a silly troll making fire and forget assertions like this one. Just looking at the comment stream it is pretty apparent that you aren’t reading or even attempting to answer the replies.

      I have a tendency to do something about trolls. For the moment, auto-moderation seems to be indicated. That should give you time to answer some of the replies you have already gotten. ]

      • McFlock 8.1.1

        I see a lot of categorical statements but not a single piece of supporting evidence from you.
        Hypocrite.

      • tc 8.1.2

        ‘All I here on this website is the snivelling and whineing of left losers ‘ says alot about your selective reading of comments wayne.

        ‘You can’t do it through taxing “rich pricks” for ever.’ issue is they pay very little in most cases relative to their earnings, we were already one of the lowest taxing countries in the OECD before blinglish blew a $1.5bill hole in crown revenue p.a. with tax cuts.

        Let us know when ireland becomes a world economic marvel will ya wayne, feel free to supply a year by which that will occur if you like.

        • BM 8.1.2.1

          They also take the least.
          Private health care
          Private eduction.

          • Pascal's bookie 8.1.2.1.1

            That’s a pretty narrow focus there BM.

            A healthy and educated society is one with more capacity for wealth creation.

            We don’t fund education and health for the private benefit of individuals, but for the public benefits (including economic ones, but not limited to them) accrued by living in a healthy and educated society.

            • BM 8.1.2.1.1.1

              If you pay for own health care, put your children through private schooling, don’t draw on government super you’re saving the tax payer a lot of money.

              Less people drawing from the tax take is a good thing.

              • felixviper

                If you can afford private health care and private schools then you’ve already taken more from the pot of resources that we all have to share.

                • BM

                  Are you serious?

                  • felixviper

                    Yes. It’s true by definition that someone with more assets and more income is extracting more of society’s wealth than someone with fewer assets and less income.

              • Descendant Of Sssmith

                No one in New Zealand pays for their own health care. Some people pay privately for a small range of medical interventions that private enterprise can make a profit from. The majority of health care is paid for by the state. Next time your wealthy privateers have a car accident and are seriously injured lets see if they end up in a private hospital. When someone has a heart attack on the private operating table let’s work out where they end up.

                There are few private schools in New Zealand and 25% of their funding comes from the state.

                According to Ministry of Education statistics, of the 286,886 secondary students (Years 9–15) enrolled in New Zealand schools at 1 July 2011, 81.9 percent (235,048) attend state schools, 12.4 percent (35,631) attend state integrated schools, and 5.6 percent (16104) attend private schools.

                That figure will of course now be less with the 2 million dollar tax payer bailout of Wanganui Collegiate which is also to become state integrated.

                Lets also not forget that most of these schools were religious schools who did not want to be part of the state education system. They weren’t set up to save the state money they were set up because they didn’t want secular education which is all the state should provide.

                Since 1975 in particular private schools have cost the state more and more money and as the wealth moves to fewer and fewer people will likely need more money to stay open. The free market agenda you espouse should mean that private schools should be closing but while tax rates have been lowered for the well off the schools they send their children too demand money.

                I’ve met one well-off person in my lifetime who has consciously not taken up NZS – I know dozens who have and several who have tucked their assets in trusts to get residential care subsidy.

                If you have evidence the well off don’t take up NZS I’d love to see it.

                • vto

                  What? Wanganui Collegiate?

                  The taxpayer just bailed out another failed free market enterprise?

                  Where the fuck is the free market model that the Nats claim to follow? They only follow free market when it is not their voters affected (e.g. Chch East). When it is their voters affected then the free market is tossed out the window and in comes all sorts of lazy loser bludging corporate and other rich welfare (e.g. South Canterbury Finance. Irrigation schemes. Christchurch Central)

                  They are duplicitous evil pricks.

              • rosy

                You might have a point if
                – private education wasn’t subsidised by the taxpayer – 22% last year to $70m while public schools have been asked to ‘save’.

                – you have the numbers of people who declined National Super because they were too rich

                – The rich paid for exactly the same health care as in the public system. But they don’t, they pay for better waiting times and siphon off public resources. If it was emergency or imminently life-threatening they’d go public like everyone else.

              • Pascal's bookie

                “If you pay for own health care, put your children through private schooling, don’t draw on government super you’re saving the tax payer a lot of money.”

                Not in the scheme of things you’re not. It’s a trivial amount, the marginal cost of an extra child in school, compared to the education budget? Think about what you are saying.

                And you are still benefiting from the provision of it to society. Those who amass great wealth, living in the society we all build, benefit a lot from living in that society.

          • felixviper 8.1.2.1.2

            “They also take the least.”

            Sorry, are you taking the piss? Those with the most assets and the highest incomes have, by definition, received the most from society’s endeavours.

          • vto 8.1.2.1.3

            Ay what? The richer a person is the more they, on average, take of society’s resources. It cannot be so simply broken down into public and private, like you are trying to do.

            They have bigger cars.
            They have more cars.
            They have bigger houses and more houses. They even have longer driveways ffs.
            They travel further and more often.
            They have bigger stereos and tvs.
            They have grander school buildings.
            They have grander hospitals.
            They have more clothes which are made of more material.
            They have bigger tummies and bigger teeth.
            They eat more food from places farther away.
            They have bigger everything.
            They have more of everything.

            I am surprised this needs pointing out.

          • Descendant Of Sssmith 8.1.2.1.4

            Bullshit. I can find you very wealthy people with community services cards, student loans and allowances, residential care subsidies, New Zealand Superannuation, regular visits to hospital for low costing things such as heart attacks and strokes, who own properties who get plenty of accommodation supplement paid to them, who get rates rebates from councils, who run PTE’s who get most of their funding from the state, who run rest homes who get 90% of their funding from the state, who run childcare centres who get 60% + funding from the state, who run shops who get lots of money from WINZ quotes and even have signs out the front saying so, who have companies that rely significantly on government contracts and so on.

            Don’t take taxpayers money – you’ve got to be joking.

          • Descendant Of Sssmith 8.1.2.1.5

            Somewhat ironic that your misspelling is the opposite of the way you present in your postings. Still gives rise to an opportunity to highlight:

            Private eduction.

            e·duce (-ds, -dys)
            tr.v. e·duced, e·duc·ing, e·duc·es
            1. To make up, draw with crayons or string out a long bow; illicit statements.
            2. To assume or work out from no facts; deduce shit based on ideology

            Public eduction

            e·duce (-ds, -dys)
            tr.v. e·duced, e·duc·ing, e·duc·es
            1. To draw or bring out; elicit.
            2. To assume or work out from given facts; deduce.

      • Georgecom 8.1.3

        Wayne

        Throw away your attachment to rubbish charter schools.

        2 presently existing programmes that actually DO target education underachievement as opposed to Charter Schools, are reading recovery and Te Kotahitanga.

        So there you go mate, two ideas for fixing underachievement.

        Challenge is now for you and others to champion them eh, rather than wasting time and precious resources on side shows like charter schools.

      • tracey 8.1.4

        you don’t here (sic) anything on this site, you are seeing, or reading it. There are many shreds and more of ideas. You, on the other hand, repeat the misleading meme that people who are struggling deserve it because they don’t get off their arses, even though the majority of those struggling are in paid employment.

        You are very fortunate to be able to be so smugly secure in your present and future. There is some luck to that, not just hard work and endeavour.

  9. Pascal's bookie 9

    Different all right. Downright bloody special mate.

  10. Binders full of women 10

    Sorry VTO- you are incorrect. Big people (ie obese) is more common in poorer people in Western countries. Wealthier people eat healthier food and drive cleaner/safer/ more efficient cars.
    Back to the thread— I would be really keen if NZ companies as opposed to foreign companies, were busy drilling, mining, (processing) and selling it.

    • felixviper 10.1

      What a lot of tosh.

      vto’s point has nothing to do with eating healthier food or being obese. It’s about consumption of resources.

    • tracey 10.2

      yes, because paradoxically, or not, crappy food high in sugar and fat is cheaper than veggies…

  11. Macro 11

    I’ve had it on good authority from an economic geologist – employed by a large exploration co in WA whose business it is to know where the stuff is – that the geology of NZ is such that there is no way that significant oil deposits are here to be found. Anyway – that was his opinion and he was well up in his field.

  12. Descendant Of Sssmith 12

    I would also add that profit is simply taxation by private interests versus taxation by the state.

    Any money over the cost of production is a tax on myself.

    The GST for instance goes to the state
    The profit goes to the businessman

    Both are taxing me
    The state for the common good
    The businessman for his private good

  13. gnomic 13

    Hey you people, be happy. Phil Heatley says fracking is good. Completely OK, capiche? Likewise offshore drilling. Trust us, we know what we’re doing. I mean, Phil would know right? And as for Joyce, how could the country survive without him? I shudder to think. How could we go on with no Minister for Everything?

  14. Fortran 14

    Can’t wait for November 2014 after which the new Labour/Green/Winston Government will solve all the problems which are aired here – particularly education and cancel the two Charter schools, if they ever actually get off the ground – which is in doubt anyway.

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    GreensBy Mojo Mathers MP
    1 week ago
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    1 week ago
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    GreensBy Eugenie Sage MP
    2 weeks ago
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    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    2 weeks ago
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    2 weeks ago
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    GreensBy Mojo Mathers MP
    2 weeks ago
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    GreensBy Russel Norman MP
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    17 hours ago
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    18 hours ago
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    18 hours ago
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    18 hours ago
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    19 hours ago
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    21 hours ago
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    22 hours ago
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    22 hours ago
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    23 hours ago
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    1 day ago
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    1 day ago
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    1 day ago

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