web analytics
The Standard

TPPA: Kelsey vs Mapp debate

Written By: - Date published: 5:51 pm, October 18th, 2013 - 20 comments
Categories: benefits, Economy, International, trade - Tags: , , , ,

Last week there was a Fabian debate between Wayne Mapp and Jane Kelsey about the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement that New Zealand started originally as a free trade agreement. Bearing in mind the short notice there were a quite credible audience. However to enhance the audience, Lyn Collie was inveigled into filming and editing the debate.

 

Introduction

 

What is the point of such arrangements and what are the benefits and the risks?

 

What happens to New Zealand sovereignty, and is the intrusion on New Zealand’s domestic affairs worth the deal?

 

Is this the way we want the next century to be?

 

Questions and answers

 

These are still being edited, try again on sunday..

 

And a big thanks to Lyn Collie for filming, editing, and being tolerant of the pen-clicking participants of this debate!

20 comments on “TPPA: Kelsey vs Mapp debate”

  1. karol 1

    Thanks, Lynn and Lyn for making this available, and putting it on the public record.

    As I recall, the main argument from Wayne is that Free Trade is very good for an “exporting nation” such as NZ. The TPPA is one all the countries are part of and New Zealand will lose if it is not part of it.

    From Kelsey: It’s so much more than a Trade Agreement. The lack of transparency means we don’t know what we are signing up to. And even after we sign, the US Congress can interpret it as suits themselves and not as it suits us. And, of course, major issues of sovereignty. And there are people and groups in many of the countries involved that are criticising the deal. We should be following Aussie’s lead in contesting some of the corporate demands. It’s basically a deal that suits the US government and multinational corporates.

    • Macro 1.1

      “Free Trade is very good for an “exporting nation” ”

      Free trade is very good for international corporations and no one else.

      Take for example the clothing industry in the states – up until 20 years ago it employed over 650,000 people. Today they have cheap clothing – which falls apart as soon as it is washed – and over 500,000 jobs which were above minimum wage have been lost ( a trained machinist earned good money ). Similarly the clothing industry in NZ has been decimated, only the top end is manufactured here. Great we have cheap clothes – but the social cost is more unemployment and depressed wages. This is only one example of the costs of a “globalised economy” there are many, many, more. But Wayne does not consider these factors as important, because he has no connection with the average person in the street, he only listens to the uber rich.

      Not only is it stupid to export jobs to less developed countries; both from a social welfare perspective and from the purpose of developing of a strong internal economy, but it undermines the very strength of a country – its ability to maintain itself in times of international crisis. Uniforms for an army for instance – yes there is a history lesson there – and we neglect our history at our peril.

      • miravox 1.1.1

        Advocates for free trade don’t look at it from a social welfare (in it’s broadest sense) perspective, though. In terms of a justification for free trade agreements based on national well-being, the advocates look at it from a consumerist perspective.

        • Sisko 1.1.1.1

          If you’re looking at social welfare in it’s broadest sense you should spare a thought for the 300-500 million Chinese who have been raise out of poverty since the 1980s by international trade. Look beyond your neighborhood.

          • miravox 1.1.1.1.1

            True.. But I don’t assume free trade agreements that make the working class in developed countries destitute is necessarily the only way, or even the best way to lift working classes in developing countries out of poverty.

          • Foreign Waka 1.1.1.1.2

            Then those 300-500 million Chinese have to start improving their country. In the same way as NZlanders and so many others do. The issue of individual freedom comes into play and with it more influence on the political scene. It is taken away when ones livelihood is affected. But I guess you know that already.

          • greywarbler 1.1.1.1.3

            Sisko
            Look into your neighbourhood and your country’s economic system. Any fool can come out with a jusification like you have. What is your job and role in this scam I wonder?

        • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.2

          In terms of a justification for free trade agreements based on national well-being, the advocates look at it from a consumerist perspective.

          Nope. Although the language that is used would make you think that (more choice, cheaper products, etc) the perspective that they’re looking at it from is the perspective of profit. The more profit that can be gouged out of an economy the better as far as they’re concerned no matter how many people it harms. As the increasing poverty in NZ and around the world shows, it harms a great deal.

        • mikesh 1.1.1.3

          If the selling price, in NZ, for a shirt manufactured in NZ is $50.00, and for a similar shirt manufactured in China is $25.00, why would the the Chinese not sell the shirt for $50.00 anyway, and raise their people out of poverty even more.

          • Wayne 1.1.1.3.1

            Because you could also buy the same shirt from Indonesia, The Phillipines, Burma and India.

            The competitive pressure means that super profits are not possible. And as we know The Warehouse and similar stores have some pretty cheap items in wide range of goods.

            When I was young, people used to make clothes at home, but who does that now. It is simply not worth it.

      • Chooky 1.1.2

        Macro +100.

        …and thanks very much for the videos Lynn and Lyn….will watch them at my leisure … a great reference!

        ….have the greatest of admiration for the work and arguments of Jane Kelsey

  2. I would just like to know where we are going to find all these agricultural products from to sell to the US, Canada and Japan?

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1

      That’s the big question isn’t it? There’s only so much land and resources available and the farmers are already having to import food to feed the cows (palm kernel) and yet they want to produce more. The simple fact of the matter is that, as far as farming goes, we’re already well beyond what can be supported in this country. I’d say that we’re at the point of having to decrease the amounts of farm land in NZ and not increasing it or going to greater intensification.

      Then there’s the social aspect of all that exporting as it means that a lot of NZers won’t be able to afford food which is something that we’re already seeing.

      No, these FTAs don’t do NZ any good.

  3. muzza 3

    If it’s going to be so beneficial for NZ, then why it is being negotiated in secret, and why will it be kept that way until years after it is signed, which it can be reasonably assumed it will be!

    Nothing to hide, nothing to fear….

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      It’s being negotiated in secret because it only benefits the rich and the rich don’t want the rest of us to have a say in our own governance.

  4. tricldrown 4

    The price we pay is no democracy for us we end up with less rights than citizens of the US.

  5. fender 5

    Watched these videos last night, very interesting and informative, thanks to all involved in making the debate happen and making it available here.

  6. Foreign Waka 6

    These agreements are aiming at a corporatist society and in the end abolishing democracy. Your vote is one for or against a corporates wish. If a nation is “stroppy” it will pay in the currency of poverty. Then it has to appease the “master” and get into the “good” books by allowing even more exploitation.

  7. Plan B 7

    American citizens have the right to remain silent, think about it.

  8. Huginn 8

    Thanks, especially to Lyn Collie, for making this available to us. It’s very much appreciated.

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Time for inquiry into petrol margins
    It’s time for an inquiry into petrol companies as margins are once again at the high levels that prompted concerns late last year, says Labour's Energy Spokesperson Stuart Nash. "Over the December January holiday period, petrol importer margins jumped to… ...
    22 hours ago
  • More talk as Auckland congestion worsens
    The main impact of the Government’s agreement with Auckland Council today will be simply to delay still further decisions needed to relieve the city’s traffic congestion, says Labour’s Auckland Issues Spokesperson, Phil Goff. “Government has been aware for more than… ...
    2 days ago
  • Serco inquiry extended
    A two month delay to the Government investigation into prison fight clubs shows the extent of problems within the Serco circus, says Labour’s Corrections spokesperson Kelvin Davis. “My office received a tsunami of complaints so I’m not surprised the terms… ...
    2 days ago
  • Truck Shops ignore consumer laws
    A damning Commerce Commission report out today highlights the failure of the Government to protect poor and vulnerable families from unscrupulous truck shops, says Labour’s Consumer Affairs Spokesperson David Shearer. “The report found that 31 out of 32 firms it… ...
    2 days ago
  • Taihoa at Ihumatao says Labour
    Labour’s housing spokesperson Phil Twyford has called on the Government to rethink its controversial Special Housing Area in Māngere. Auckland Council is today meeting to discuss the development which borders the Otuataua Stonefield Historic Reserve. This project is to get… ...
    2 days ago
  • Figures suggest National deliberately excluded farming
    Figures showing the dairy industry would be categorised as high risk if there were a further five severe injuries within a year, strongly suggests National designed its flawed system to deliberately exclude farming, Labour’s spokesperson for Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway… ...
    2 days ago
  • Bleak report on the state of our children
    A damning conclusion by the Children’s Commissioner today that ‘we don’t know if children are better off as a result of state intervention, but the indications are not good’ should make fixing CYFs a top priority for this Government, says… ...
    2 days ago
  • Dodgy data used to justify axing KiwiSaver kickstart
    National’s agenda to run down KiwiSaver has become even clearer from a scathing critique of the Government’s justification for axing the $1000 kickstart, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Since National came to power they have not only continually undermined… ...
    2 days ago
  • Unsecure website risks Ashley MoBIEson hack
    Experts have raised security concerns that vulnerabilities in MoBIE’s half million-dollar website could lead to a possible Ashley Maddison-style hack, says Labour’s Economic Development spokesperson David Clark. “The real issue here is not what data is immediately available, but what… ...
    3 days ago
  • Democracy still the loser in Canterbury
    The Government has demonstrated once again how arrogant and out of touch it is in denying Cantabrians the same democratic rights as the rest of the country, says Labour’s Environment spokesperson Megan Woods.  “The Environment Canterbury Bill which has been… ...
    3 days ago
  • Waiver cost still a mystery
    The Government still has no idea what it’s going to cost community and voluntary groups to get a waiver from the fees police will charge to carry out checks on their staff and volunteers, says Labour’s Community and Voluntary spokesperson… ...
    3 days ago
  • China exports fall 27 per cent in a year
    Exports to China have fallen by 27 per cent over the last 12 months - showing that the looming economic slowdown should have been expected by the Government, says Labour’s Economic Development Spokesperson David Clark. “The Chinese economic slowdown should… ...
    3 days ago
  • National should support all families for 26 weeks
    Families with multiple babies, and those born prematurely or with disabilities, are the winners from moves to extend paid parental leave to 26 weeks but the Government must give all babies the same head start in life, Labour’s spokesperson for… ...
    3 days ago
  • National’s health and safety shambles puts school camps at risk
    Reports that schools are considering scrapping student camps and tearing out playgrounds highlights just how badly National has managed its health and safety reforms, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “Schools have been left completely in the dark about the… ...
    3 days ago
  • National’s asset stripping agenda hits schools
    National’s fire-sale of school houses and land is short-sighted, mean-spirited, and will have huge unintended consequences that we will pay for in years to come, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. Documents obtained by Labour show the Ministry of Education… ...
    3 days ago
  • Takahe massacre supposed to get all New Zealanders involved in conservation
    The Minister’s claim that a  botched cull of one of New Zealand’s rarest birds was a way of getting all New Zealanders involved in conservation is offensive and ludicrous, Labour’s conservation spokesperson Ruth Dyson says.  “An email from Minister Maggie… ...
    4 days ago
  • Serco circus rolls on with revelations of fight club practice
    Further revelations that a Serco prison guard was coaching inmates on fight club techniques confirms a fully independent inquiry needs to take place, says Labour’s Corrections spokesperson Kelvin Davis. “The Minister’s statement today that a guard was coaching sparring techniques… ...
    4 days ago
  • Government targets put ahead of students’ education
    The Government must urgently reassess the way it sets NCEA targets after a new report found they are forcing schools to “credit farm” and are undermining the qualification, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “A PPTA report released today says… ...
    4 days ago
  • ER patients in corridors as health cuts bite
    Patients are being forced to wait for hours on beds in corridors as cash strapped hospitals struggle to keep up with budget cuts, says Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King. “People coming to the emergency room and being forced to wait… ...
    4 days ago
  • Not too late to fix Health and Safety for New Zealand’s workers
    The Government and its minor party supporters are showing an arrogant disregard for workers’ lives by not agreeing to a cross-party solution to the botched Health and Safety bill, Opposition leader Andrew Little says. “Yesterday I wrote to the Prime… ...
    4 days ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Council of Infrastructure Development
    Tēnā Kotou Katoa. Thank you so much for having me along to speak today. Can I begin by acknowledging John Rae, the President, and Stephen Selwood, the chief executive of the Council for Infrastructure Development. ...
    5 days ago
  • Reserve Bank points finger at Govt inaction
    In scathing criticism of the Government’s inaction, the Reserve Bank says Auckland housing supply is growing nowhere near fast enough to make a dent the housing shortage, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. Reserve Bank deputy governor Grant Spencer today… ...
    5 days ago
  • Chickens come home to roost on climate change
    The Government’s gutting of the Emissions Trading Scheme has caused foresters to leave and emissions to rise, says Labour’s Climate Change spokesperson Megan Woods. “The release of the Environmental Protection Agency’s Facts and Figures Report for 2014 on the ETS… ...
    5 days ago
  • Website adds to long list of big spends at MBIE
    The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment’s $560,000 outlay on its new website is further evidence of excessive spending by Steven Joyce on his pet project super ministry, Labour’s Economic Development spokesperson David Clark says.  “Hot on the heels of… ...
    5 days ago
  • Brownlee warned over EQC repairs but ignored them
    Gerry Brownlee was warned that EQC’s underfloor repairs weren’t being done properly by industry experts, the cross party working group and in public but he arrogantly ignored them all, says Labour’s Earthquake Commission spokesperson Clayton Cosgrove.  “Today’s apology and commitment… ...
    5 days ago
  • Serco wants in on state house sell off
    The Government must keep scandal plagued outsourcing company Serco away from our state housing after their disastrous record running Mt Eden prison, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. "Today it has emerged that at the same time Serco was under… ...
    7 days ago
  • Come clean on Pasifika education centre
    Minister Peseta Sam Lotu-Iinga needs to come clean and tell the Pasifika communities if he’s working to save the Pasifika Education Centre or shut it down, Labour’s Pasifika spokesperson Su’a William Sio says.  “I’m gutted the Pasifika Education Centre funding… ...
    1 week ago
  • Time for NZTA to work on alternatives to flyover
    The High Court decision rejecting the New Zealand Transport Agency’s attempts to build the Basin Reserve flyover must now mean that NZTA finally works with the community on other options for transport solutions in Wellington, Grant Robertson and Annette King… ...
    1 week ago
  • Shiny new system leads to record truancy
    Record high truancy rates shows the Government’s much-vaunted new attendance system is an abysmal failure, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “Data released today shows truancy rates have spiked more than 15 per cent in 2014 and are now at… ...
    1 week ago
  • Woodhouse wrong about quarries
      The Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety Michael Woodhouse was wrong yesterday when he said limestone quarries were covered by the farcical Health and Safety legislation, says Labour’s Associate Labour spokesperson Sue Moroney.  “He said he ‘understood’ limestone quarries… ...
    1 week ago
  • Taxpayers money spent on culling one of our rarest birds
    It beggars belief that four endangered takahe were killed by incompetent cullers contracted to the Department of Conservation and the Minister must explain this wanton destruction, says Conservation spokesperson Ruth Dyson. “It must not be forgotten that there are only… ...
    1 week ago
  • Housing NZ must immediately move family
    Housing New Zealand must immediately move a Glen Innes family whose son contracted serious and potentially fatal health problems from the appalling condition of their state house, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “Te Ao Marama Wensor and community workers… ...
    1 week ago
  • No understanding of the value of overseas investment
     The Government has now admitted it has absolutely no idea of the actual value of foreign investment in New Zealand, says Labour’s Land Information spokesperson Stuart Nash.  “It is crucial that the Government starts to understand just what this overseas… ...
    1 week ago
  • Another bridges bribe from Simon Bridges
    Simon Bridges is embroiled in another bridges-for-votes controversy after admitting funding for a replacement bridge in Queenstown is “very much about… the 2017 election”, Labour’s Transport spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “The Transport Minister is today reported as telling Queenstown locals… ...
    1 week ago
  • Saudi tender process reeks of SkyCity approach
    The tender process for the $6m investment in a Saudi sheep farm reeks like the SkyCity convention centre deal and once again contravenes the government’s own procurement rules, says Labour’s Export Growth and Trade spokesperson David Parker. “The $6m contract… ...
    1 week ago
  • Maori Party should stand up for workers
    The Government’s proposed Health and Safety Reform Bill does not go far enough to protect those in specific industries with the highest rates of workplace deaths, says Maori Development Spokesperson Nanaia Mahuta. “We are told that Maori workers are more… ...
    1 week ago
  • Minister must explain budget blowout
    Māori Development Minister Te Ururoa Flavell must explain a budget blow out at Te Puni Kokiri, after the organisation spent more than 2.5 million dollars over their budget for contractors, says Labour’s Associate Māori Development spokesperson Peeni Henare.  “For the… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Successful effort to raise the issue of GE trees in proposed standard
    Many thousands of people submitted on the proposed National Environmental Standard –  Plantation Forestry (NES-PF).  A vast majority of the public submissions were particularly focussed on the NES having included GE trees in its mandate. People want these provisions removed,… ...
    GreensBy Steffan Browning MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Fair Share Friday – Thoughts and Reflections
    As part of our Fair Share  campaign, Green MPs have been doing a series of visits to community groups across the country to have conversations about inequality in New Zealand and what communities are experiencing on the ground. I visited… ...
    GreensBy Denise Roche MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Crucial Auditor General investigation welcomed
    The Auditor General’s decision to investigate the Saudi sheep scandal is important, necessary and welcome, Labour’s Trade and Export Growth spokesperson David Parker says. “The independent functions of the Auditor General are a cornerstone of the New Zealand system of… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • KiwiSaver sign-ups continue to fall
    New KiwiSaver sign-ups in July were 45 per cent below the monthly average, despite John Key saying axing the kickstart “will not make a blind bit of difference to the number of people who join KiwiSaver”, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Contact bows to pressure
    Contact Energy’s decision to cut its pre-pay rates to be in line with its customers who pay monthly is good news and the company deserves credit for responding so quickly, says Labour’s Consumer Affairs Spokesperson David Shearer.  “Two months ago… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • I’m pushing for a ‘fair go’ for solar
    My Fair Go For Solar Bill was pulled from the Members’ Ballot last week and is set for a vote in Parliament. In this blog post I explain some of the background to the bill and how it aims to… ...
    GreensBy Gareth Hughes MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Key must explain why Health and Safety Bill pulled
    John Key must explain why his Government is delaying the Health and Safety Bill when Pike River families have travelled to Wellington specifically to register their opposition, Opposition Leader Andrew Little says. “Yesterday afternoon John Key suggested the bill may… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Diving for sustainable scallops
    Last week, there were calls for scallop dredging to be banned in the Marlborough Sounds, following scientific report saying that 70% of the Sounds had been lost from dredging, trawling, and sedimentation from forestry. At the same time we see… ...
    GreensBy Steffan Browning MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Backdown whiff in state house leasing option
    Bill English’s admission that the Government is looking at leasing large numbers of state houses to non-government providers has the whiff of a backdown, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “This is an acknowledgement by Bill English that he has… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Housing crisis downgrade threatening banking sector
    The out of control Auckland housing market is now threatening the banking sector, with Standard and Poor’s downgrading the credit rating of our banks out of fear of the bubble bursting, Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson says. “Today we have… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Good money after bad for failed experiment
    The National government are throwing good money after bad with their decision to pump even more funding into their failed charter school experiment, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says.  “There are already major problems with several of the first charter… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • National borrows Labour’s idea on urban development
    Labour's Associate Environment spokesperson Phil Twyford says he welcomes the Government's adoption of Labour's policy for a National Policy Statement on urban development, and has called on the Government to take up Labour's offer to work together on these issues.… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Toothless OIO never refused a single farmland sale
    The Overseas Investment Office has approved more than 290 consents from foreign investors to buy sensitive land in New Zealand, but has not turned down a single application says Labour’s Land Information spokesperson Stuart Nash  “The Minister of Land information,… ...
    2 weeks ago

Public service advertisements by The Standard

Current CO2 level in the atmosphere