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	<title>Comments on: Trial needed for national standards</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/</link>
	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-182997</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-182997</guid>
		<description>I am a principal and am interested in this debate.  Two comments.  First that this has become a political debate rather than a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the Standards is appropriate because the proposed introduction of the standards is itself purely political. This is what concerns teachers because if there was any evidence that the standards would lead to better teaching or learning then they would be embraced but instead Tolley and Key are prepared for ideological reasons to fly in the face of evidence around the world that suggests that standards to do work.   Secondly, take a look at OECD rankings for achievement in Reading, Maths and Science and ask yourself if there is really a problem with primary school education in NZ short of the difference in the achievement of those from different socio economic groups - something that National seem prepared to make worse rather than improve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a principal and am interested in this debate.  Two comments.  First that this has become a political debate rather than a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the Standards is appropriate because the proposed introduction of the standards is itself purely political. This is what concerns teachers because if there was any evidence that the standards would lead to better teaching or learning then they would be embraced but instead Tolley and Key are prepared for ideological reasons to fly in the face of evidence around the world that suggests that standards to do work.   Secondly, take a look at OECD rankings for achievement in Reading, Maths and Science and ask yourself if there is really a problem with primary school education in NZ short of the difference in the achievement of those from different socio economic groups &#8211; something that National seem prepared to make worse rather than improve.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180731</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180731</guid>
		<description>Bit optimistic don&#039;t you think? The School Trustees Association has come out firmly in support of National Standards. They said &quot;NZSTA views the national standards as an important opportunity to give full effect to parents right to know how their child is doing at school in respect both their classmates and how they compare nationally, warts and all&quot;

I doubt very much you can make a blanket statement about school boards based on the views of principals. The principal is one member of the board only. There may be another teacher as a staff rep. The principal is actually the board&#039;s employee. He or she may have some powers delegated to him/her but not necessarily the representation of how the board feels on such a matter as this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bit optimistic don&#8217;t you think? The School Trustees Association has come out firmly in support of National Standards. They said &#8220;NZSTA views the national standards as an important opportunity to give full effect to parents right to know how their child is doing at school in respect both their classmates and how they compare nationally, warts and all&#8221;</p>
<p>I doubt very much you can make a blanket statement about school boards based on the views of principals. The principal is one member of the board only. There may be another teacher as a staff rep. The principal is actually the board&#8217;s employee. He or she may have some powers delegated to him/her but not necessarily the representation of how the board feels on such a matter as this.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180730</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180730</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a distinction between political employer-employee discussions carried out in house (contract negotiations for example) and publicity campaigns where organisations put out press releases attacking their opponents. We all know that TUs conduct this kind of public political campaigning as a matter of course. It is actually carried out explicitly with the national political scene and parliamentary elections in mind, and is pretty much as a proxy of a political party. And this is true because TUs are well known for party affiliations, even if these days many prefer to claim they are not formally affiliated.

I&#039;ve written elsewhere that the leadership of most TUs is heavily stacked with hard core political activists. I think that is very easy to prove. Therefore knowing that to be fact it begs the question of exactly how much of this campaign really is representing the views of members and how much is political campaigning for its own sake. It cannot be just a coincidence that a major left wing party has announced its policy would abolish the standards.

The bulk funding campaign was similar and claimed the heads of two PPTA presidents who pushed their political views too far and lost support of their membership. That is a relevant piece of history to this particular situation. Tolley has stood up to it by calling the union&#039;s bluff on its interference with school boards. It remains to be seen who will blink first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a distinction between political employer-employee discussions carried out in house (contract negotiations for example) and publicity campaigns where organisations put out press releases attacking their opponents. We all know that TUs conduct this kind of public political campaigning as a matter of course. It is actually carried out explicitly with the national political scene and parliamentary elections in mind, and is pretty much as a proxy of a political party. And this is true because TUs are well known for party affiliations, even if these days many prefer to claim they are not formally affiliated.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written elsewhere that the leadership of most TUs is heavily stacked with hard core political activists. I think that is very easy to prove. Therefore knowing that to be fact it begs the question of exactly how much of this campaign really is representing the views of members and how much is political campaigning for its own sake. It cannot be just a coincidence that a major left wing party has announced its policy would abolish the standards.</p>
<p>The bulk funding campaign was similar and claimed the heads of two PPTA presidents who pushed their political views too far and lost support of their membership. That is a relevant piece of history to this particular situation. Tolley has stood up to it by calling the union&#8217;s bluff on its interference with school boards. It remains to be seen who will blink first.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180729</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180729</guid>
		<description>Bulk funding is how the tertiary sector has been funded a long time and no one has tried to turn back the clock on it. It was just a lot easier for Labour to undo bulk funding in primary-secondary education so they did. Bulk funding of course undermines the union collective bargaining monopoly. The opposition has got a lot more to do with that than any other argument marshalled against it.

National standards already have existed for years, just not the reporting requirement of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bulk funding is how the tertiary sector has been funded a long time and no one has tried to turn back the clock on it. It was just a lot easier for Labour to undo bulk funding in primary-secondary education so they did. Bulk funding of course undermines the union collective bargaining monopoly. The opposition has got a lot more to do with that than any other argument marshalled against it.</p>
<p>National standards already have existed for years, just not the reporting requirement of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180728</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180728</guid>
		<description>What is the relevance of the ETS to school principals?

Some schools are quite willing to implement this policy, trial or not. The schools that want them to be guinea pigs aren&#039;t being very generous, are they.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the relevance of the ETS to school principals?</p>
<p>Some schools are quite willing to implement this policy, trial or not. The schools that want them to be guinea pigs aren&#8217;t being very generous, are they.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180727</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180727</guid>
		<description>A union&#039;s obligations are whatever they choose them to be, they are not obliged in any way whatsoever to engage in the kind of campaign they have chosen to engage in.

For example they could choose to continue private discussions with the government instead of public campaigning. They could choose not to write to all the boards as they have done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A union&#8217;s obligations are whatever they choose them to be, they are not obliged in any way whatsoever to engage in the kind of campaign they have chosen to engage in.</p>
<p>For example they could choose to continue private discussions with the government instead of public campaigning. They could choose not to write to all the boards as they have done.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180726</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180726</guid>
		<description>There are two core functions that most unions engage in. THere is quite likely to be different levels of participation of members in these:

1. Industrial relations - high majority as everyone benefits from getting better pay and conditions etc

2. Political activism - likely to be a much smaller bunch of people unless it crosses over into (1). This is pretty much a given, the top people in every union I can think of are well known political campaigners and activists in all the major left wing political parties that have ever existed.

I suggest you can accurately measure (2) by the level of participation in national conferences which in most organisations full stop is a minority. As the PPTA found to its cost in the bulk funding campaign in the 90s when they lost two presidents in a row (Tobin and Cooney) because they took an extremist viewpoint out of step with many rank and file. 

The current campaign is politically driven by a hard activist core and as such we are reasonably entitled to ask exactly what percentage of the union membership is being represented by the positions taken.

Also I think the voice we are hearing the loudest is the union&#039;s - not necessarily the rank and file members.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two core functions that most unions engage in. THere is quite likely to be different levels of participation of members in these:</p>
<p>1. Industrial relations &#8211; high majority as everyone benefits from getting better pay and conditions etc</p>
<p>2. Political activism &#8211; likely to be a much smaller bunch of people unless it crosses over into (1). This is pretty much a given, the top people in every union I can think of are well known political campaigners and activists in all the major left wing political parties that have ever existed.</p>
<p>I suggest you can accurately measure (2) by the level of participation in national conferences which in most organisations full stop is a minority. As the PPTA found to its cost in the bulk funding campaign in the 90s when they lost two presidents in a row (Tobin and Cooney) because they took an extremist viewpoint out of step with many rank and file. </p>
<p>The current campaign is politically driven by a hard activist core and as such we are reasonably entitled to ask exactly what percentage of the union membership is being represented by the positions taken.</p>
<p>Also I think the voice we are hearing the loudest is the union&#8217;s &#8211; not necessarily the rank and file members.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180725</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180725</guid>
		<description>There were some changes like no league tables are going to be possible. But if you don&#039;t get everything you ask for, well that&#039;s just life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There were some changes like no league tables are going to be possible. But if you don&#8217;t get everything you ask for, well that&#8217;s just life.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180724</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180724</guid>
		<description>School boards and health boards are a lot alike. The health boards while having some limited autonomy are firmly under the control of the government of the day.

School boards have slightly more freedom, but still have to operate under the legal constraints set by governmental legislation and accountability for public funds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>School boards and health boards are a lot alike. The health boards while having some limited autonomy are firmly under the control of the government of the day.</p>
<p>School boards have slightly more freedom, but still have to operate under the legal constraints set by governmental legislation and accountability for public funds.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180723</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180723</guid>
		<description>What I mean to say by that is that the PPTA is only representing the majority viewpoint (we presume). They aren&#039;t interested in representing the percentage of their members who support national standards. That at least appears to be the case as of now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I mean to say by that is that the PPTA is only representing the majority viewpoint (we presume). They aren&#8217;t interested in representing the percentage of their members who support national standards. That at least appears to be the case as of now.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180722</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180722</guid>
		<description>Everyone&#039;s entitled to an opinion. However you can&#039;t get away from the fact that school boards are really like health boards, and while they do have a degree of independence, a core part of their function is to comply with the legal requirements provided for by the government.

The government is accountable to all of us through the ballot box. Most people seem to accept that for what it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone&#8217;s entitled to an opinion. However you can&#8217;t get away from the fact that school boards are really like health boards, and while they do have a degree of independence, a core part of their function is to comply with the legal requirements provided for by the government.</p>
<p>The government is accountable to all of us through the ballot box. Most people seem to accept that for what it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180721</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180721</guid>
		<description>The problem is not with teachers per se, it is with those in particular who are too big for their boots (the ones that make the most noise in the PPTA etc). The opposition being whipped up is way out of proportion when you consider the standardised assessments are already being used in house by schools and in some cases have been for decades (e.g. PAT)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is not with teachers per se, it is with those in particular who are too big for their boots (the ones that make the most noise in the PPTA etc). The opposition being whipped up is way out of proportion when you consider the standardised assessments are already being used in house by schools and in some cases have been for decades (e.g. PAT)</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180720</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180720</guid>
		<description>There was actually quite a lot of &quot;trial&quot; in the NCEA with bits of it used as bargaining chips in contract negotiations at various times. It was certainly not a popular policy at certain times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was actually quite a lot of &#8220;trial&#8221; in the NCEA with bits of it used as bargaining chips in contract negotiations at various times. It was certainly not a popular policy at certain times.</p>
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		<title>By: Swampy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180719</link>
		<dc:creator>Swampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180719</guid>
		<description>&quot;It is the teachers who have opposed national standards, the officials just follow their democratic decisions. It is the teachers that Tolley is unwittingly seeking a battle with. It is the teachers that Tolley has the temerity to accuse of not caring about the kids.&quot;

Officials follow whose decisions? The teachers or the government&#039;s?

It&#039;s already been observed that it is more correctly the teacher&#039;s unions that Tolley is seeking the battle with. Unwittingly or not. Probably not in fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is the teachers who have opposed national standards, the officials just follow their democratic decisions. It is the teachers that Tolley is unwittingly seeking a battle with. It is the teachers that Tolley has the temerity to accuse of not caring about the kids.&#8221;</p>
<p>Officials follow whose decisions? The teachers or the government&#8217;s?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s already been observed that it is more correctly the teacher&#8217;s unions that Tolley is seeking the battle with. Unwittingly or not. Probably not in fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Transparent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/trial-needed-for-national-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-180241</link>
		<dc:creator>Transparent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=27513#comment-180241</guid>
		<description>Sorry Tim, it&#039;s not the government that will bear the cost, it&#039;s our children. All over the world it has been shown that when you have national standardised testing then the children will be taught to pass the test, to the detriment of other aspects of education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Tim, it&#8217;s not the government that will bear the cost, it&#8217;s our children. All over the world it has been shown that when you have national standardised testing then the children will be taught to pass the test, to the detriment of other aspects of education.</p>
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