The sooner we can do away with that old fool the better for the left.

You are right; the choice between socialism and capitalism appears to be a long way off. I don’t claim that a Labour-led government would be the same as a National-led one. Labour will, for example, make union organising easier (through access to worksites). However in the light of the current economic turmoil, both Labour and National are returning to Keynesian style spending programmes. I do not believe that the difference between National and Labour would be anything like as stark as many people (including on this forum) claim or imply. Both are parties of the centre-right. Both are wedded to the market but in order to save the market in the face of the current downturn, both have been forced to temper that with a dose of Keynes. The differences are in the detail. I won’t welcome a National win next weekend but I won’t be overcome with despair if it happens. I’ve lived through plenty of Labour and National governments and I’ve seen things get progressively worse under both. I’m more interested in thinking long-term.

Under Labour, between 2000 and 2004 the proportion of all NZ
children in severe and significant hardship increased by a third, to 26%. As I’ve said before, the gap between rich and poor has tended to rise regardless of which party has been in office. Yes, working for families has helped *some* of those people (including me; I have 2 kids and bugger all income), but as I’ve said before, this is scrabbling for crumbs. The WP is in for the long haul and we see the election as a time to engage with people and put socialism back on the agenda. I don’t see that ever happening within a programme of calling for a vote for Labour and being motivated by a fear of National.

Redlogix again:
“The secondary question is, does a vote for the WP assist or detract from that?”

I doubt that the WP will get many votes and most of those will be from people who would not have voted otherwise, as they are already disillusioned with the current parties, so it probably won’t make any difference at all. The reason we’re standing is to let people know that the left does still exist, that there is a genuinely left party out there that people can get involved with, and that we are around every day of the year, not just at election time, since we don’t see elections as the key arena of political struggle.

Redlogix ends with:
“Besides capitalism appears to be crumbling under the weight of it’s own monstrous hubris .regardless of how we cast our votes.”

If only it were so easy! The history of industrial capitalism over the last few hundred years shows us that this will never happen. In fact it is this misconception that has led in part to the popularity of reformist ideas. Capitalism will never fall over by itself; many capitalists may (and will) fail, there could well be massive attacks on working people in the process of saving it but there is nothing more certain than that it will be saved unless it is actively overthrown (which doesn’t have to mean violent insurrection BTW). The attacks on the working class that will occur as required to save the system will be carried out by either a Labour or National government, as the events of 1984 (when Helen Clark was a member of the cabinet) should make perfectly clear.
Cheers,
John

So, actually, Steve, your advice helps take Labour to the right, and risks not getting Labour elected at all.

One extra party vote for Progressive is just as likely to bring another MP as one extra party vote for Labour.

now, i think there could be space for a true left party to fill the void left by the collapse of the Alliance. But right now we have four parties fighting over the same little niche and failing to build that niche, much as the Christian Right is fighting over the remainders of the Christian Coalition’s support base. You’ve got these petty ideological and personal disputes, and geographical divides. If you get over them, you can build a vehicle for leftwing politics that could reach 5%. Until that happens, you’ll just be a vehicle for true Left voters to accidentally increase the odds of a National government.

If a vote for WP or RAM could lead to WP or RAM MPs, I would totally advocate voting for them, But that’s not going to happen this time. Maybe next election things will be different, that would be great.

But come next Saturday, we face the choice, support the parties that are a step in the right direction or don’t, thereby, empowering the parties that would work against our ideals and against workers.

I remain disappointed with your utterly disingenuous ways of trying to make RAM look electorally weak.

Looking forward to your retrospective analysis of New Zealand political history that questions why people wasted their Liberal Party votes to vote for an emerging minor party called Labour .

Yours in democracy and solidarity,
Oliver Woods
RAM Candidates Co-Leader
RAM Auckland Central candidate

P.S. Looking forward to your endorsement of the radical democratic socialist Judith Tizard in Auckland Central. She’ll doubtlessly lead the next wave of economic transformation in New Zealand! Hahaha.

The only reason that I will “get out of bed”, as Redlogix puts it, on Saturday 8th and vote is because there is an openly anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist and pro worker revolutionary party on the ballot.

I’ve got nothing against RAM’s politics, I just don’t want to see people throwing their votes away when that would make a right wing government more likely.

Wasn’t me either. LOL.

“But in reality you may as well not bother getting out of bed come 8th November.

Fundamental social change will happen, when the the people fundamentally change what they believe in and place value on.”

This last part is certainly true, but then we in the Workers Party have always insisted that our participation in elections is nothing more than an extension of the other campaigning work that we do day-in and day-out as anti-imperialist activists, as campaigners for open borders and full rights for migrant workers and as militant delegates and organisers in the trade unions.

The elections are simply a chance to highlight these campaigns, to put our anti-capitalist ideas before a wider audience and to offer those who reject zero-sum game of political lesser-evilism a chance to cast a revolutionary protest vote.

Along the way we also hope to recruit fresh layers of activists to help build a mass movement on the streets and in the workplace for revolutionary social change and genuine freedom.

Yes A preferential system for electorates, and open party lists would make MMP even better