‘What crisis?’ Rudderless ship, stormy seas

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1. Ad 1

   14 October 2012 at 8:25 am

   This an unalloyed joy to read.

   Such a practical relief from the sideshows of late.

   Looking forward to writing a submission.

   Just fantastic to see the prominence of that EPMU banner in the media – they so deserve it.

   Agree about Parker. Need a really thorough alternative economy to survive the next 2 decades of really low growth.

   Congratulations to the organisers.
2. just saying 2

   14 October 2012 at 8:48 am

   Thanks for this report Karol.

   Is it possible for NZ to decouple from this system, and develop a new direction, independent of the main havoc wreaked by the international capitalist elite?

   I don’t know. But I’m pretty sure that, if we continue leaving all the power in the hands of those of the comfortable middle-class and above, with their vested interest in the status quo, however noble their expressed, and maybe heartfelt egalitarian sentiments, things, (for them anyway) will continue to be pretty much the same. While the lives of working class get progressively harder, and our democratic rights and freedoms are dismantled before our (mostly unseeing) eyes.

   I was reading a backlog of columns by Owen Jones (when ‘the Independent’ changed its format I couldn’t find him anymore). He, probably naively, believes that the British Labour Party can be changed though pressure from the bottom up.

   ….That is no reason to despair. It is up to Labour party activists, trade unionists and a broader movement to flesh out this coherent alternative, and build pressure from below on the leadership to accept it. Since World War II, we have had two transformative governments that forced their oppositions to accept their fundamental key tenets: one led by Clement Attlee, the other by Margaret Thatcher. This historic and never-ending crisis demands a new, radical Labour government to establish a new settlement. Ed Miliband is more likely than not to end up in Number 10 – but it is up to us to make sure he leads a genuine break from the national tragedy of Tory austerity….

   Here,while the Greens hold out a bit more hope than Labour, to the likes of me, I don’t believe either will change much more than the window dressing without a major powerbloc of the silenced majority, forcing their every step in the right direction.
   • just saying 2.1

     14 October 2012 at 9:06 am

     Oops, I forgot a link for the quote above. Here tis:

     http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/this-week-ed-miliband-was-likeable-and-funny-but-now-we-need-a-serious-alternative-to-austerity-8194594.html
3. lprent 3

   14 October 2012 at 9:11 am

   I am getting more and more glad that I didn’t have time to go. The release phase of 2 and a half year projects is one that you spend time on. – I was revising the 2 hour build process for the code.

   Karol went instead and is doing a better set of posts than I would. Such interesting questions.

   Personally because of my background, I am into building new markets offshore seeking the incredible oddball ideas that our people seem to generate and selling into global micro niches. This generates the income to purchase resources that NZ either doesn’t have or where the economies of scale make it difficult to produce here at an required quality level or price.

   Massively multilayered tiny PCB boards for instance. Quite simply what we can get from China or Taiwan or one of the countries that is geared up for producing this type of gear in quantity is just outstanding in all respects. Same with the chips that populate the boards.

   But assembling here makes a lot of sense. Just about everything we do is at the near custom run level. Production runs of a mere thousands need to be as close to the testers and the design engineers as possible. It may require actual production hardware hacks for the parts that the software can’t fix.

   But to do that requires an infrastructure of local companies that can provide those flexible services. That base of skills is steadily disappearing mostly because of politicians and economists who appear to not understand that manufacturing is an integrated ecosystem. Letting capabilities die because of mere economic vagaries and then expecting them to reappear under the magic invisible hand is simply daft. They don’t.

   Skills and equipment either atrophy into uselessness or they leave the country. It isn’t like real estate or money laundering or graphics design which can startup rapidly after a downturn. Once a manufacturing industry cluster dies here, then it usually takes decades to get back if it ever recovers. But you sure as hell can’t build new manufacturing based industries including hitech ones when you don’t have the local precursor industries to draw on. You may as well find somewhere else that does.
   • Ad 3.1

     14 October 2012 at 11:05 am

     Well fair enough LPrent, Pye isn’t going to set up onWaihi again anytime soon and make complex boards.

     But altnative histories indicate that alternative futures are possible. Let me turn you back to the late1990s with Porter, then to the early years of the Clark government and Skilling and the Growth and Innovation Framework. For a time, all major budget bids had to show how they contributed to this framework. Niche manufacturing in specific sectors was confirmed, including screen production, and of course food and beverage (witha large task force of its own).

     Government and business agreeing on sectors that would get most support, and ignoring those we had no forecast competitive advantage in.

     The results of manyof the programmes from GIF as sectors and as manufacturers, have been strong. Of course the Clark government had its faults particularly with regulating overseas investment. But the main problem to growing these manufacturers here egboatbuilding was not not lack of industry will, it was the gradual decrease in commitment to the GIF plan politically.

     Rod Oram’s previous book showed examples of some of the results. Even in its weak and uneven form, GIF made a lasting difference. Alternative futures for manufacturing are possible.

     In an alternative world, what we could have seen on Friday was the stirrings of another GIF.
     • lprent 3.1.1

       14 October 2012 at 2:39 pm

       That is what I’d like to see again. Strategic building of capabilities.
   • geoff 3.2

     14 October 2012 at 1:04 pm

     I used to work for a company that did short runs of custom electronics assembly. The changes in production volume across a single year were large. Around 80% of the labour force were on temp contracts. People were treated poorly and the work was tedious and repetitive and everyone was worried each week that it would be their turn for their respective temp agency manager to sidle up to them and and have a quiet word about not bothering to turn up the following week.

     I really didnt like those work conditions but in retrospect I’m not sure how you could operate such a business without the ability to hire and fire people as the demand lifted and fell.

     What’s your idea for handling the labour for this sort of work?
     • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1

       14 October 2012 at 1:46 pm

       I really didnt like those work conditions but in retrospect I’m not sure how you could operate such a business without the ability to hire and fire people as the demand lifted and fell.

       That’s one of the benefits of a Universal Income and a lot of state housing that I see. It allows people to be more creative with their time than the old fashioned 40 hours per week in the same job. I’m not a fan of permanent work.

       Besides, WTF is electronics assembly still done manually?
     • lprent 3.2.2

       14 October 2012 at 2:37 pm

       The biggest thing to do would be to increase the numbers of companies needing the work done. Ultimately that is what smooths out all oft this type of work. It was the same in injection moulding shops back in the 60’s and early 70’s
   • Draco T Bastard 3.3

     14 October 2012 at 1:39 pm

     Massively multilayered tiny PCB boards for instance. Quite simply what we can get from China or Taiwan or one of the countries that is geared up for producing this type of gear in quantity is just outstanding in all respects. Same with the chips that populate the boards.

     Bollocks

     If we did (Yes, I’m talking about government here) the same amount of investment in the factories that China or Taiwan did then we’d be able to produce them for the same price. And remember, they’d be fully automated factories so the labour requirements would be minimal.
     • lprent 3.3.1

       14 October 2012 at 2:34 pm

       A. They aren’t fully automatic for anything we would want to do. You can only do that for really long runs for which there is no local demand and crazy offshore competition to compete against.

       B. It is a myth that such plants are full automatic anyway. They may have minimal production staff. However they have a lot of maintenance and quality testing staff. They also have a lot of staff working on upgrades.

       C. Building a local plant makes no sense. They are essentially uncompetitive within a few years as the layers in the PCB’s increase and the densities get tighter. Thye are headingbthe same way as chips did. You’d only do it for strategic reasons – if we wound up in a cuba situation.
       • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.1

         14 October 2012 at 3:49 pm

         A) Then we need to develop better factories

         B) That’s what I would expect. The total would be far less than a fully manual factory though.

         C) See A) and your B).

         You’d only do it for strategic reasons – if we wound up in a cuba situation.

         At some point in time every country in the world is going to realise that they don’t need to trade and that they can get a better living standard for their people if they don’t (well, minimise it anyway). This is going to be especially true of the countries which presently have huge amounts of resources and poverty. They will realise that if they processed those raw resources into computers/copper wire, etc and then exported the finished product that they’re going to be better off. At that point the world will be massively over supplied with everything and there’s no way you’ll be able to compete anyway.

         You’re still thinking in a capitalist/growth mindset where we need to make a financial surplus rather than in real terms where we need to supply our society with what it needs from the limited resources we have to maintain a reasonable living standard for everyone.
         • Colonial Viper 3.3.1.1.1

           14 October 2012 at 9:07 pm

           DTB

           You’re still thinking about having access to the latest and greatest during decline. Not going to happen, sorry.

           The washing machines of 2060 aren’t going to be gee-whiz made in NZ F&P and Samsung style models with clever microprocessors and circuit boards and LED lights.

           They are much more likely to be similar to the old fashioned F&P ones of the 1970’s and early 1980’s, with a spring loaded timer mechanism ticking away to progress through the stages of the cycle.

           I believe Lprent is correct. We’re not going to have state of the art SMT lines, but we could run some smaller scale older lines very economically. For CPUs and microprocessors the capital cost of 130nm design and fabrication tools (what the Pentium III and IV were made on) is fuck all on the secondary market.

           And when we make stuff onshore it’s much more likely to be of the older washing machine variety (because they are easy to make, easy to fix, and can last for decades) rather than the new beeping flashing all gizmo type.
           • prism 3.3.1.1.1.1

             14 October 2012 at 9:21 pm

             CV
             Our old ‘analogue’ FP washing machine was better than the new FP one on a number of points.
             • Colonial Viper …

               14 October 2012 at 9:27 pm

               Yep. You’re seeing it in a number of areas. “Improvements” which aren’t really improvements. “Progress” which isn’t really progress. “Growth” which isn’t really growth.

               Some people, still not enough, are starting to see beneath the societal hype and marketing.
           • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.1.1.2

             14 October 2012 at 9:32 pm

             We’re not going to have state of the art SMT lines, but we could run some smaller scale older lines very economically. For CPUs and microprocessors the capital cost of 130nm design and fabrication tools (what the Pentium III and IV were made on) is fuck all on the secondary market.

             Why would we use old, inefficient tech like that when we can produce newer more efficient stuff more efficiently? Really do wish I could find that article that came out a few years ago about Canterbury Uni manipulating atoms/molecules with lasers.

             And when we make stuff onshore it’s much more likely to be of the older washing machine variety (because they are easy to make, easy to fix, and can last for decades) rather than the new beeping flashing all gizmo type.

             Actually, it’s more likely to be the new flashy stuff cheaper to produce, maintain and still lasts decades. Advantage of all that metallurgy and learning stuff between then, now and later.

             The only thing we won’t have is oil and that’s not a problem. All that does is get of the bloody cars.
             • TheContrarian …

               14 October 2012 at 10:28 pm

               “The only thing we won’t have is oil and that’s not a problem. All that does is get of the bloody cars.”

               Wow, I didn’t know that the only that required oil were cars. Here I was stupidly thinking that trucks, ferries and most every fucking mechanical device we utilise in daily life to supply us with the things we need used oil.

               Silly me. Lucky NZ has ample supplies of pixie dust.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 14 October 2012 at 10:51 pm

                 Trucks can use electricity. Ferries can use bio-diesel. Most other mechanical devices can use vegetable oil.

                 For what’s left we may have to pull up uneconomic oil or look to refining mineral oils from coal.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   14 October 2012 at 10:56 pm

                   Still too complicated mate. Plus biofuels are only good if you have organic material going to waste anyways. We certainly don’t want to go down the wasteful, inefficient US route of converting food to liquid fuels.

                   Yes there will be plenty of electric transport but for the really big stuff: coal and wood powered steam.

                   You can build a steam engine these days which is as efficient as the most modern diesel engine. Except the steam engine will last 50 years.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     14 October 2012 at 11:35 pm

                     Still too complicated mate.

                     Not necessarily. If we only produce what we need then the complexity shouldn’t be an issue.

                     Plus biofuels are only good if you have organic material going to waste anyways.

                     I’m not fond of bio-fuels and would prefer not to use them but I think we may have to in some limited places. Ferries are likely to be one of those places. All other shipping would be sail.

                     Yes there will be plenty of electric transport but for the really big stuff: coal and wood powered steam.

                     Nope, electric trains. Just need those wind farms and solar panels.

                     You can build a steam engine these days which is as efficient as the most modern diesel engine. Except the steam engine will last 50 years.

                     Actually, that’s the other way around. Steam engines have always been more efficient than diesel (the efficiency of heat engines has to do with the temperature ratio between the engine and the atmosphere). Diesel is easier to store than wood or coal which is why diesel won out over steam. Diesel engines are also safer (less likely to explode).
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     15 October 2012 at 1:11 am

                     Nope, electric trains. Just need those wind farms and solar panels.

                     only good on flat land and lower loads unfortunately. Remember, with steam you get maximum torque at zero RPM. That’s how you move ten thousand tonnes of shit up a hill with rail and back down again. You can’t do that with electric.

                     Diesel is easier to store than wood or coal which is why diesel won out over steam.

                     That and the fact the IMF would only give us a development loan in the 1970’s if we agreed to scrap a fleet of perfectly good steam engines to go with diesel.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     15 October 2012 at 2:03 am

                     Remember, with steam you get maximum torque at zero RPM.

                     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque#Machine_torque

                     Steam engines and electric motors tend to produce maximum torque close to zero rpm…Reciprocating steam engines can start heavy loads from zero RPM without a clutch.

                     Steam engines have the advantage but I suspect it’s not as much as you think.

                     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

                     This system is particularly advantageous in mountainous operations, as descending locomotives can produce a large portion of the power required for ascending trains.

                     Can’t do that with steam.

                     That and the fact the IMF would only give us a development loan…

                     The only question we need to ask there is WTF were we taking out a development loan in the first place?

                     In fact, I’m pretty sure we never did take out such a loan.
   • karol 3.4

     14 October 2012 at 4:48 pm

     Thanks, Lynn.  Not being an economist or a business person, I tried to flag up the main areas of discussion, while also trying not to make the post too long.  People here clearly know more about a lot of these issues than I do, and have been able to explain them far better.
      
     I think I understand how specific niche products are best traded with other  countries.
      
     John Walley was big on the serious difficulty withing to re-build areas of manufacturing once the skills and products/technologies have been lost.  It takes decades to get the investment required for rebuilding. And Walley claimed that we will lose the necessary elements quicker now than at the beginning of the GFC.  In fact several speakers reckoned we have worse yet to come from the GFC.
      
     Walley reckoned that in the last decade the growth has been in post primary production and skills.  Whereas, the areas we need to develop are in simple and elaborate production. (I’m not sure what sort of manufacturing that would be – I take pretty good notes, but not always that detailed. 🙂
     • Colonial Viper 3.4.1

       14 October 2012 at 5:32 pm

       “Simple production” probably refers to activities such as the assembling of prefabricated parts, or the manufacture of items requiring only one or two special relatively well understood processes, using relatively few materials and commodity components. Making a plastic bucket, stamping and bending sheet steel, drawing wire, extruding plastic pipe etc.

       “Elaborate production” likely refers to production requiring highly designed, highly specified inputs, multiple complex components/components, precision manufacturing processes, integrated software/firmware, and significant ongoing R&D.
       Look to Tait, PEC, Scott Automation and F&P Healthcare as examples.
   • RedLogix 3.5

     14 October 2012 at 8:07 pm

     Letting capabilities die because of mere economic vagaries and then expecting them to reappear under the magic invisible hand is simply daft. They don’t.

     That is SO damn true.
4. BM 4

   14 October 2012 at 9:13 am

   So lots of gas bagging, no solutions.
   What a waste of time.
   • Te Reo Putake 4.1

     14 October 2012 at 9:29 am

     You’re remarkably self aware this morning, BM!
     • BM 4.1.1

       14 October 2012 at 9:33 am

       Ha, very good.
   • ianmac 4.2

     14 October 2012 at 9:33 am

     BM. Are you talking about Steven Joyce’s often given contribution to non-policy or Bill English’s habit of talking in circles. Please do be more polite about these two because they do not know how to care for the people.
   • freedom 4.3

     14 October 2012 at 9:34 am

     BM
     why bother commenting if that is all you have? Does it satisfy some inane ego issue? Do you get a purile emotional kick that you have just wasted zero point two seconds of people’s lives making them skim your contribution?

     At least the project is starting a dialogue, which is more than the big blue gnats are willing to attempt.

     !!! NZ NEEDS JOBS !!!
     DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT?

     Seriously BM you are becoming the new Pete George but without the sense of depth and reason
     • BM 4.3.1

       14 October 2012 at 9:42 am

       Off course NZ need jobs, bit of a no brainer that one.
       How we create those jobs is another matter.
       Personally the idea of the government creating a huge widget factory that employs 100,000 people doesn’t really appeal to this voter.
       • muzza 4.3.1.1

         14 October 2012 at 9:46 am

         I think the real question is

         “Will NZ be allowed to create any jobs”

         The answer of course is, NO!
       • freedom 4.3.1.2

         14 October 2012 at 9:51 am

         so BM, instead of being monotonously derisive of the efforts of others . . . suggest something
         • BM 4.3.1.2.1

           14 October 2012 at 9:55 am

           Rejoin with Australia.
           Power in numbers.
           • felix 4.3.1.2.1.1

             14 October 2012 at 11:08 am

             Re-join? Eh?
             • BM …

               14 October 2012 at 11:18 am

               Rejoin, as in become a state of Australia again.
               • lprent …

                 14 October 2012 at 11:19 am

                 We never have been a state of Aussie. You have to look back past 1840 for any kind of governance from Aussie, and that was largely a diplomatic job from new south wales – not from any other part of Aussie.
                 • BM …

                   14 October 2012 at 11:21 am

                   Back in the 1820’s I thought we were, could be wrong though.
                   • mike e …

                     14 October 2012 at 11:25 am

                     Blind Monetarist your always wrong!
                   • felix …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:39 pm

                     You would be.

                     NZ was for a time treated by the British as part of the colony of NSW (which was also not part of Australia at the time) until around the time of the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi when NZ officially became a distinct colony (yay! a colony of our own!)

                     In fact there was no such country as “Australia” until about 1900, over half a century later.
               • OneTrack …

                 14 October 2012 at 2:27 pm

                 Sounds good BM but I doubt the aussies would have us.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   14 October 2012 at 5:36 pm

                   We say we kowtow to our Aussie overlords and offer appropriate sacrifices!
           • TheContrarian 4.3.1.2.1.2

             14 October 2012 at 11:12 am

             Rejoin with Australia?

             Would this be via plate tectonics?
             • lprent …

               14 October 2012 at 11:14 am

               +1
               I was going to answer that. But yours was so much better…

               And shorter – which appears to be what BM requires. But I have to ask, while he appears to have calcite in his brain and probably is rocky in parts of his anatomy, do you think he will know what plate tectonics is? Maybe a link o Wikipedia.
             • PlanetOrphan …

               14 October 2012 at 11:18 am

               Might be the “Trans Tasman highway” idea re surfacing 🙂
           • Colonial Viper 4.3.1.2.1.3

             14 October 2012 at 11:24 am

             “power in numbers” is your strategy for taking on China (pop 1300M) and Indonesia (pop 238M)?

             Maybe you should rethink that.

             You haven’t even added in the fact that Australia has started a prolonged economic downturn and are becoming increasingly unfriendly towards Kiwi workers.
       • felix 4.3.1.3

         14 October 2012 at 10:22 am

         “Personally the idea of the government creating a huge widget factory that employs 100,000 people doesn’t really appeal to this voter.”

         And I’m not overly keen on the government turning all the red-haired children into sausages.

         So?
         • BM 4.3.1.3.1

           14 October 2012 at 10:44 am

           So, we’re relying on the market to create these jobs?
           • felix 4.3.1.3.1.1

             14 October 2012 at 10:57 am

             What, the jobs in the giant widget factory?

             Why on earth would we want anyone running such a pointless enterprise when there is plenty of real work to be done?
             • freedom …

               14 October 2012 at 1:16 pm

               staggering isn’t it felix

               we have all the wood ( and once had all the wool) in the world , all the tradespeople you could need, a housing crisis, technical ability to create new products and train new people, a local market hungry for the result and a global market that would readily take whatever we can muster . . . We used to build things, remember.

               add to this a sea of unemployed people desperately needing a new direction . . . yet . . . the halls of power are filled with windbags of self interest that were duped into thinking Dairy and the destruction of our primary industries was going to help NZ
               Well thirty years on i think we can safely say they fucked it up, they fucked it up big time. Now before the ” well come up with something then ” brigade harp on i do have an idea: Use kiwi wood to make kitset homes that kiwis build and then when kiwis have enough we can sell more to the world. We used to build things, remember.

               With minimal revison we revert to farming sheep instead of poisoning our country and prostituting our land growing dairy. Wool becomes insulation and fuel and clothing etc. We have a current glut in woodchips, with a bit of Plant rejigging Wood becomes wallboards. Using a generic range for the kitset system ( that a first year design student could work out) we have a smooth running high-productivity factory within a year that would employ a few hundred people, that ships product ( another few hundred ) to the builders ( a few thousand there) then the decorators etc ( thousand more) and the sparkies and plumbers etc etc etc . We would quickly produce a range of associated products the world would want. It used to be what we did. We used to build things, remember.

               as i said , it is just one idea, and as i am at work a very quickly thrown together one. The Government has had four and a half years and has nothing even close to a coherent practical plan. It may only be one step but that is what you do when starting a journey. You take one step, then when the foot is stable, you take another, before you know it you are running towards horizons you only imagined.. There are so many reasons that NZ know-how should be at the front of the queue instead of selling assets and importing second rate crap and sentencing kiwis to retail and hospitality jobs. We used to build things, remember.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 14 October 2012 at 1:55 pm

                 +1
               • felix …

                 14 October 2012 at 7:38 pm

                 +1 indeed.
               • felix …

                 14 October 2012 at 7:50 pm

                 ^ guest post ^
     • Draco T Bastard 4.3.2

       14 October 2012 at 1:49 pm

       Seriously BM you are becoming the new Pete George but without the sense of depth and reason

       QFT (I LOL’d :twisted:)
5. freedom 5

   14 October 2012 at 9:25 am

   Billy Bragg talked strongly about these subjects just last night in Wellington, and did so with such mirth you almost forgot how dangereous a concept it is to some and why big business has worked so very hard to destroy them . .

   Unions of the people are the only way to achieve any prosperity for the many. Unions of the people are the only way to wrestle back the leashes held by the few.

   p.s. The Woody Guthrie set was a giant super sundae of amazinglygreat topped with fanbloodytastic !
   • Draco T Bastard 5.1

     14 October 2012 at 1:59 pm

     Unions of the people are the only way to achieve any prosperity for the many. Unions of the people are the only way to wrestle back the leashes held by the few.

     QFT
   • Jokerman 5.2

     14 October 2012 at 9:05 pm

     🙂 X 2
6. BM 6

   14 October 2012 at 9:26 am

   I do agree with your heading though “What crisis”
   http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/government-says-deficit-halved-9-3-billion-last-year-5125154

   No crisis here.
   • tc 6.1

     14 October 2012 at 9:45 am

     Rebbit rebitt says the frog, just stay in that water like the hollowmen want there’s a good leeming.
     • BM 6.1.1

       14 October 2012 at 9:50 am

       I thought it was the Lizard men, have they been replaced?
       • muzza 6.1.1.1

         14 October 2012 at 9:55 am

         9.3bn deficit….

         Where would you like the funding to come from

         1: Cutting of essential services
         2: Higher taxes on the poor/middle class
         3: Off-shore borrowing at undisclosed rates of interest

         Whats your thoughts on the foreign owned RBNZ/OoDM – Do you understand basics, or are you as asinine as your words indicate!
         • BM 6.1.1.1.1

           14 October 2012 at 10:01 am

           Offshore oil drilling
           Mining
           Cuts to the public service.
           Tax breaks for businesses that take on more staff.
           • muzza 6.1.1.1.1.1

             14 October 2012 at 10:26 am

             Offshore oil drilling – How will that fund the deficit?
             Mining – I doubt it
             Cuts to the public service.- You like that one?
             Tax breaks for businesses that take on more staff.- How will that fund the deficit?

             The deficit has happened, and needs funding now, try again!
             • Foreign Waka …

               14 October 2012 at 1:28 pm

               Stop the gravy train, I dare Nzlanders to try!
           • chris73 6.1.1.1.1.2

             14 October 2012 at 11:07 am

             Sounds like a good start. I’d add getting tough on welfare fraudsters (no we aren’t tough enough not even close) and targeting and slamming tax evaders
             • Colonial Viper …

               14 October 2012 at 11:33 am

               Raise income taxes on the top 5%, institute an asset tax, FTT and CGT. Reintroduce an estate tax (formally death duty).

               And a corporate supertax of 59% on any company making more than $100M pa.
               • chris73 …

                 14 October 2012 at 11:40 am

                 Gee a lefty wants to raise taxes
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   14 October 2012 at 5:37 pm

                   More taxes, more civilisation 🙂
             • felix …

               14 October 2012 at 12:02 pm

               Anyone who thinks the 9 billion dollar deficit will be addressed in any way whatsoever by “getting tough on welfare fraudsters” is drunk.
               • PlanetOrphan …

                 14 October 2012 at 12:04 pm

                 Bloody well said Felix.
                 • TheContrarian …

                   14 October 2012 at 2:30 pm

                   I’m drunk and it still doesn’t sound right.
               • chris73 …

                 14 October 2012 at 12:16 pm

                 Too early in the day for that.

                 I don’t think there is any one policy that can fix the deficit and increase jobs, however I do believe that there is a number of policies that can.

                 Cracking down on welfare fraudsters and tax dodgers is one of those policies that can help.

                 There ain’t no magic bullets.
                 • PlanetOrphan …

                   14 October 2012 at 12:19 pm

                   “There ain’t no magic bullets.”

                   Yet you keep looking for them, by judging others.

                   The total welfare budget for nz is approx 287.5Million.

                   Lets say using statistical analysis that 5% are fraudulent …..

                   14.15Mill max buddy.

                   Which means bad economic policy is 620 times more important and costly.
                   • BM …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:23 pm

                     Sightly out there, 25 billion is closer to the mark.
                   • PlanetOrphan …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:25 pm

                     Where’d ya get that number BM?
                   • PlanetOrphan …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:29 pm

                     OK sorry, 1.117 Bill max, still 8 times more important.
                     (Based on a total of 23.4 billion)
                     Pure Beneficiary fraud would be a much smaller percentage, which I can’t find solid numbers on.
                   • BM …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:33 pm

                     http://www.ips.ac.nz/publications/files/99f91186d74.pdf

                     Page 3
                   • PlanetOrphan …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:37 pm

                     Thanks 🙂
                   • Kotahi Tāne Huna …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:49 pm

                     Fifty percent of that S23.4b goes on NZ superannuation. What percentage of that is fraud? Approximately none?
                   • PlanetOrphan …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:55 pm

                     Which is where the 14mill comes from, but it’s hard too verify.
                     All the splits for various needs makes it a variable number, but we have systems for those frauds, even if it’s 500million it’s a small amount compared to other expenditure and 95% at least are valid claims.
                   • Kotahi Tāne Huna …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:57 pm

                     Sorry – stuffed the link up – Welfare benefits trends in New Zealand now linked in previous comment!
                   • felix …

                     14 October 2012 at 5:38 pm

                     And are we factoring in the cost of all this “getting tough” or are we going to get tough for free?
                 • Poission …

                   14 October 2012 at 12:54 pm

                   Cracking down on welfare fraudsters and tax dodgers is one of those policies that can help.

                   There ain’t no magic bullets.

                   Globally there is not a monetary crisis,the money is just in the vehicles,and in the wrong areas for all the wrong reasons.

                   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097

                   If we observe the above example,most of the developing countries would move from being net debtors to net creditors.

                   If the benefits from trusts removed there would be increased transparency,and greater opportunity to audit.This was where Dunnes defense of funny money needs to be clearly identified.The foreign tax haven status we provide is essentially only an offshore coin operated laundry-mat.

                   The NZ local trusts are more a relic of the past (to avoid inheritance tax),now they are being used to minimize risk for bad or criminal decision making eg Petrovich.
             • Foreign Waka …

               14 October 2012 at 4:41 pm

               Chris we are not talking about the “small fry” here. Corporate Welfare, guaranties for Banks to bail them out with taxpayer money and yet the bonuses paid to Excecs make your eyes water. In fact it was just a few days ago reported that banks are back where they were but the general population has been left in the dust.
               International Companies taking profits offshore without reinvestment and improvement of NZ interest required (don’t get me wrong, but it is not oil companies as they do reinvest – funny that!) Third world country wages being used to peg pay rates in regards to manufacturing (Fisher & Pykel will be the next one). Treaty claims that are logged with some sinister undertones and ever more inventions to make NZlanders pay (ownership of the water, air).
               The general support of the mentality that someone owes one a living etc…. And yet, the ones who really (really, really) need help and have earned their keep (pensioners) are being constantly marauded. Manipulation at its finest.This has not been a NZ tradition until the recent past. Perhaps people won’t like what I say here, however it will not diminish the underlying causes for the distinct problem NZ is facing and the challenges that will not go away.
               http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/ReadtheTreaty.html
           • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1.3

             14 October 2012 at 11:31 am

             Tax breaks for businesses that take on more staff.

             Wages paid are exempt from company tax already, moron.
             • BM …

               14 October 2012 at 11:34 am

               Aren’t we trying to create more jobs?.
               More carrot less stick, anything that encourages employers to take on more staff is good.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 14 October 2012 at 11:43 am

                 I agree. A super tax on corporates should create funds to help NZ based SMEs.

                 Your idea that cutting taxes has anything whatsoever to do with new jobs is just stupid, however. All it does is put more money into owners’ pockets for doing nothing different than today.
                 • BM …

                   14 October 2012 at 11:52 am

                   Creating incentives for small business to take on more staff, that has legs.
                   Your idea is pie in the sky and is never going to happen
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:00 pm

                     Of course it will happen. Have more faith. NZ can do a better job of selling and implementing it than Gillard did.
                   • PlanetOrphan …

                     14 October 2012 at 12:01 pm

                     Although the rates CV states are high, and would kill most businesses overnight, they are a worthy goal.

                     If things go well, then we’ll never need too approach those high levels, but the turnover/stability/options they’d create would be phenomonal.

                     Companies pay 28% at the mo, they can’t afford anything over +0.25% a year, CVs’ plan is a long one.
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     14 October 2012 at 1:01 pm

                     BM

                     Companies take on more staff when they are expanding right? Due to not being able to meet market demand for their products?

                     Otherwise, are we saying that currently they are not taking on staff even though there is demand not being met?

                     So the problem is not enough demand. We have excess labour because there is not enough demand for goods and services. Why is that? Is it because companies are paying too much tax? Is it because wages are too high? Is it because the govt is spending tooo much money?

                     So where does demand come from? And how can the Government encourage it?
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     14 October 2012 at 1:05 pm

                     Re tax rates.

                     It’s worth bearimg oin mind that taxes act in unusual ways.

                     If profits at a certain level are taxed highly, or income over a e certain amount, that can effect decisions around investment in staff and expansion. ie, paying your staff more can become a more attractive proposition when high taxes on the alternative are taken into account.

                     Or to look at the same thing another way, the incentive to pay lower wages and scimp on investment in productivity increasing plant, can be reduced by taxing the alternatives.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     14 October 2012 at 5:40 pm

                     And PB has hit the nail on the head. Thanks mate.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     14 October 2012 at 5:45 pm

                     PlanetOrphan said

                     Companies pay 28% at the mo, they can’t afford anything over +0.25% a year, CVs’ plan is a long one.

                     No, implement it tomorrow, actually.

                     I’d propose dropping the company tax rate for small businesses down to 26% (profits < $500K pa).

                     For medium sized companies keep the rate at 28% (profits <$10M).

                     For largish companies raise the rate to 33% (profits < $100M).

                     For major corporates, introduce the super-profits tax of 49% (profits over $100M pa).

                     In other words, progressive taxation for businesses.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   14 October 2012 at 2:09 pm

                   A super tax on corporates should create funds to help NZ based SMEs.

                   Nope. Just put businesses and trusts on PAYE and make dividends (also on PAYE) tax deductible for businesses. The resultant increase in the tax take could be used to boost SMEs as well as pay for the very large, very expensive factories that the SMEs need.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     14 October 2012 at 5:48 pm

                     yeah could do. Going to a Greens system and scrapping GST for SMEs would be good to.
               • Foreign Waka …

                 14 October 2012 at 1:32 pm

                 BM unfortunately, empirical evidence does not support your argument. Any tax break is used to give some hefty bonuses to the shareholders as they expect ROI in line with profitability. Less tax means more profit and only a few will benefit and they may not even be in NZ. We should start restricting raw material being shipped out without being processed at its point of origin. I think this would create jobs, income, tax and well being for a lot of people.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   14 October 2012 at 2:13 pm

                   We should start restricting raw material being shipped out without being processed at its point of origin.

                   Yep. A complete ban on the exportation and importation of raw resources is needed.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     14 October 2012 at 2:31 pm

                     “Yep. A complete ban on the exportation and importation of raw resources is needed.”

                     Ban importation? Going to have a hard time getting by without any zinc.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     14 October 2012 at 3:52 pm

                     It’s the same coin. If we ban exportation of raw resources then we have to ban importation as well.
                   • Foreign Waka …

                     14 October 2012 at 4:16 pm

                     Just something to make you think: we logging trees and send these unprocessed overseas to produce: wait for it! – toothpicks. So who says we cannot produce these here? Same with wood pallets for heating. Export them and you have one of many possibilities of a value added business. Ooops, too much work I hear? Bucks not coming quick enough (for some)?
                   • TheContrarian …

                     14 October 2012 at 5:06 pm

                     “If we ban exportation of raw resources then we have to ban importation as well.”

                     Going to have a hard time getting by without any zinc.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     14 October 2012 at 7:25 pm

                     Why, doesn’t it come in a processed form?
                   • TheContrarian …

                     14 October 2012 at 7:56 pm

                     NZ has small amounts of Zinc but in no economic quantities. Mining it would be counter productive. So we have to import it.

                     What’s the difference between importing processed zinc, ready for use, and raw zinc? Why does it matter?

                     You seem to think, Draco, that NZ can be self-sufficient, but we don’t have enough of some minerals to be able to be so and still keep our current way of life.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     14 October 2012 at 9:39 pm

                     Why does it matter?

                     Because it’s the processing that adds value which means a greater return for processed resources. That would be both for us and the other resource exporting countries. Also, it gives cause for the importing countries to look for other solutions.

                     You seem to think, Draco, that NZ can be self-sufficient,

                     I tend to go for minimalist trade rather than maximising it as the current failed paradigm calls for.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     14 October 2012 at 10:29 pm

                     So you agree then that NZ can’t be self-sufficient while keeping the same quality of life due to us lacking the necessary minerals?

                     Or are you still going to maintain your weird delusion that we can make everything here and still have plasma screens and a laptop/PC in every home?
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     14 October 2012 at 10:38 pm

                     yeah because everyone having a new laptop and a new flat screen TV is what determines the “quality of life” in our society.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     14 October 2012 at 11:14 pm

                     Or are you still going to maintain your weird delusion that we can make everything here and still have plasma screens and a laptop/PC in every home?

                     I’m pretty sure that we can make PCs and LED screens from resources here in NZ.

                     Steel – got it
                     Ceramics – got it
                     Silicon – got it
                     Gallium – got it
                     Copper – got it
                     Aluminium – yep, got that too (although, it’s possible we actually have more titanium)

                     There is some stuff we don’t have or, rather, have very little of, which it would be worth trading for.

                     yeah because everyone having a new laptop and a new flat screen TV is what determines the “quality of life” in our society.

                     Everyone having access to a computer and the internet is what helps maintain our democracy. Maintaining our democracy helps maintain our quality of life, ie, not as slaves or serfs.
                   • McFlock …

                     14 October 2012 at 11:20 pm

                     don’t we import the bauxite for the aluminium?
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     15 October 2012 at 2:23 am

                     yeah we do

                     and DTB 100% import substitution is not going to work. Some shit we are either going to have to go without, still source from overseas and use sparingly, or simply recondition/repair/salvage what we already have here.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     15 October 2012 at 8:34 am

                     “There is some stuff we don’t have or, rather, have very little of, which it would be worth trading for.”

                     So then banning imports/exports of materials won’t work
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     15 October 2012 at 10:30 am

                     don’t we import the bauxite for the aluminium?

                     Yep, we do but there’s a 20 million tonne deposit of the stuff up in the north.

                     So then banning imports/exports of materials won’t work

                     /facepalm

                     I said raw materials. Example: We produce ~1m tonnes of steel annually of which we export most but we export 40 million tonnes of raw iron sand. The latter export would be banned but not the former.
   • Jim Nald 6.2

     14 October 2012 at 9:46 am

     “No crisis here”
     And don’t forget to pair that up with “There is no alternative”!!

     That brings to mind this recent piece from the UK:
     (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/30/miliband-has-got-answers)

     “[UK] Labour is talking of a badly damaged economic system which requires not just a leader, and not even just an election, but a national transformation to put it right. It needs companies run more democratically, rather than by a tiny clique of bonus-addicted executives. It needs banks that go back to their main social function – protecting savers’ money and lending to productive businesses. It needs public sector institutions such as hospitals to be more responsive to their users. …

     “It also needs a lively sense of the changing priorities and demographics of the country. That means shifting attention and resources to older people and those who care for them …

     “Starting to shift Britain in the right direction isn’t a matter of taking over ministries and nudging policy, or even just rewriting departmental budgets. Instead, it’s about changing the institutions people work in and rely on in their daily lives.

     “It’s about pushing and cajoling companies to pay their workers a decent wage, rather than depending on the state to make up the difference through tax credits – a corporate dependency culture allowed to flourish in the good years, when the tax receipts flowed in, but not affordable now. It’s about helping consumers to band together to force energy prices down by buying in bulk. It’s a vision of government as the reshaper and enabler of corporate responsibility, rather than as doler-out.

     “As one shadow minister put it to me yesterday, “Our model of capitalism has broken but, rather than abolish capitalism, we have to reform it, remake it, and democratise it.” That’s why so many of the lazier expectations of what a Labour opposition should be – laundry-lists of new spending pledges and detailed promises about tax – are simply beside the point. …

     “Almost everywhere one looks at this conference, one sees new thinking about how to reform the economic system without radical new spending commitments. Don’t get me wrong. It will be confrontational and sometimes scary. When the big corporate tycoons threaten to clear off, Miliband and the rest of the team cannot flinch. When executives on millions warn that they can’t pay decent wages without harming profits, there will be arguments to be had.

     “Obviously, there is still a long, long way to go. But you can see the ground plan for a new centre-left politics taking shape, and a few lines of brick rising from the mud. We don’t yet have the language to describe it properly – civic socialism?

     “… none of it will come to anything if millions of people cannot be persuaded that a better economy and society are possible. The quiet despair about anything ever really changing is the single most lethal threat to British democracy.

     “Ed Miliband’s biggest task will be to shift that, to convince the disillusioned that Britain can develop a less short-term, less unequal economy, in which companies can again be admired. Simply voting Labour, and expecting Miliband to fix it for us, isn’t grown up. He has got answers for those who will listen, but only for reasonable questions.”

     p.s. Apologies if the excerpts are a bit long but I have edited most out to leave these in. Moderators are welcome to remove as much as they wish since the link is already there. Cheers.
     • Colonial Viper 6.2.1

       14 October 2012 at 11:37 am

       Ah very nice, I’m liking Ed Milliband more and more.
     • Ad 6.2.2

       14 October 2012 at 11:46 am

       It’s really good to hear language changing like that.but what Labour UK might find is what Labour found in 1999: the public sector and the sum total of direct levers to pull has substantially shrunk. Labour governments need to be able to coordinate levers to increase their economic agency. But with the telco’s gone, banks gone, and soon power companies gone from state control, it will take more than changes in descriptors to change the economy.

       As the state and public service continues to shrink fast, actual bully-pulpit leadership becomes the main lever left. Does Miliband have that force of will? Does Shearer? They can’t be worse than the Tory Prime Ministers. just remember how hard it was to breakTelecom – they were happy to help betray the whole of Cabinet.

       This sounds a bit messianic I know, but it will take at least a whole term to develop and operate the new required levers of power over capital. I sincerely hope this will exists.
       • Colonial Viper 6.2.2.1

         14 October 2012 at 12:00 pm

         This sounds a bit messianic I know, but it will take at least a whole term to develop and operate the new required levers of power over capital. I sincerely hope this will exists.

         Yeah don’t see much of that will around currently.
         • Ad 6.2.2.1.1

           14 October 2012 at 12:25 pm

           Agreed, but one either works with the redeemable bits of the current leadership as EPMU has done, or be consigned to a further decade of stagnation as a new generation of leadership ascends. Nasty choice but opposition politics shouldn’t ever be about waiting for the other lot to fail.
         • Jim Nald 6.2.2.1.2

           14 October 2012 at 12:28 pm

           Shearer is, I must admit, so anaesthetically pleasant. I might not even bother to get out of bed to vote, come election day.

           At least the comical pair of Johns would get my moral fibres fired up, thanks to their convenient memory loss, selectively characterised ignorance, and resistance to reading vital reports.
           • PlanetOrphan 6.2.2.1.2.1

             14 October 2012 at 12:41 pm

             Silver lining time? 🙂
   • Poission 6.3

     14 October 2012 at 10:06 am

     As one of the commentators posed,( it is the dollar stupid ) the problem is reduced to a statement where debate is required.

     As we need a trade surplus to pay for imported goods and services,an accumulated debt we can identify that a high TWI (trade weighted index) does seem to decrease our Balance of payments eg.

     http://s1250.beta.photobucket.com/user/Poission/media/a984d297.gif.html

     If as a number of analysts suggest,the sept deficit (trade balance) is looking to be around 800m-1.1 billion it may be time to look at what we can do soon rather then later.

     When the Govt spokesman Joyce,tries to distort the problem and suggest that it is endogenous problems mostly to do with policy eg.

     “There is no doubt that economic conditions in the post GFC- world are challenging for some firms. The role of Government is to do things that help make firms more competitive and that is what our Business Growth Agenda is all about.

     “The Government would welcome opposition support in areas that make a real difference for firms – thinks like reforming the RMA, supporting employment law changes to increase flexibility, and controlling ACC’s costs.

     If we examine the last 2 points,labour flexibility bears NO relation to productivity growth anywhere in the world during economic contraction anywhere on this planet ie a fallacy eg Broadbent 2012 Bank of England.

     During the 61 banking crises covered by Bordo and Eichengreen’s dataset[ across 35 countries since 1980] , annual productivity growth is on average 1.4% points lower than at other times. Table 1, which plots the results of a regression on the same dataset, shows that, for given output growth, inflation is higher during financial crises

     The second point is also a fallacy as the independent review on NZ osh tells us that NZ has accidents rate around 4x the UK and Aus.ie a systemic problem with a no fault system.

     It is increasingly obvious that Joyce is a bit thick.
     • PlanetOrphan 6.3.1

       14 October 2012 at 10:39 am

       Very well said poisson,

       Those people that say “post GFC” should be saying “Post Iranian Oil Embargo”

       Which they new about, and did nothing about.
   • lprent 6.4

     14 October 2012 at 10:54 am

     BM: Tell me, do you ever read past the headline? Or are short sentences your limit? In which case even the following from that same article am be too long.

     Core Crown debt increased by $10 billion to around $50 billion…

     Despite the nice headline, all that meant was the rate of increase in debt was slowed. If you looked you will find that most of the better tax take was attributed to last years prices for agriculture. That is hardly likely to continue after the bump in the exchange rate.

     Everyone I run across in business is expecting a much harder year to June 2013, we’re a already seeing it.
   • Dr Terry 6.5

     14 October 2012 at 11:35 am

     BM – I am reluctant to waste time and space on one of your king, only to repeat “there are none so blind as those who will not see”.
7. PlanetOrphan 7

   14 October 2012 at 10:44 am

   Great Article Karol 🙂
   How about we introduce Salary caps ? (Thanks QoT)
   (We’ll have too legislate, the Unions can’t enforce it anymore)

   The Gnats’ “Free Market” is bleeding us dry.
8. Dr Terry 8

   14 October 2012 at 11:45 am

   Thanks Karol. I can see that, for all the good things about this conference (like Russell Norman!), you would have a few reservations. Men must learn that their interests are more than financial and economic. Men too, like women, must look hard toward the human issues and the humane. Once we are “back in surplus”, what marvels are likely to happen then? All government energies will likely go into maintaining the status quo. Nobody, other then the already well-off, is going to receive any hand-outs, for sure! A “steady state economy” will probably offer no promise to those in poverty, or the poor. Somehow it will have to be maintained that way. No hand-outs!! Again, forget not humanitarian concerns.
9. Draco T Bastard 9

   14 October 2012 at 1:00 pm

   However, I still don’t follow the logic that the route to a more sustainably productive, fair and inclusive society, is through every country selling stuff to each other.

   That logic is based upon the micro economic principle of specialisation. An individual can’t learn everything and so they specialise. Unfortunately, the mainstream economists have taken that principle and applied it to whole societies which shows the total stupidity of mainstream economics. It’s obvious that a society always has enough people in it to cover everything that the society needs. What happens when a society specialises in a limited number of areas is a) the people who don’t want to work in those areas have to leave to work where they want and b) the society actually stops changing and thus becomes a backwater with limited culture (which probably encourages even more people to leave).

   While several participants said they are open to exploring all possible solutions, many at the summit, including Labour and the Greens, do not seem to have the courage to fully jettison the neoliberal agenda.

   People tend to be afraid of change even when it’s obvious that change is needed.

   Is it possible for NZ to decouple from this system, and develop a new direction, independent of the main havoc wreaked by the international capitalist elite?

   Yes, it’s possible but it’s going to take more input from the general populace rather than just listening to the capitalists and the politicians who want to keep the present system.
10. karol 10

    14 October 2012 at 5:01 pm

    People tend to be afraid of change even when it’s obvious that change is needed….

    Yes, it’s possible but it’s going to take more input from the general populace rather than just listening to the capitalists and the politicians who want to keep the present system
     
    Yes, that’s what I thought.  This was indicated to me when some speakers referring to countries like the US and UK providing “new” interventionist models that NZ should either follow or respond to.  Also there was a question/suggestion from the floor that I didn’t catch (lousy hearing?), but that the (politicians’?) panel said would be a “step too far”. 
     
    It might have been this one as mentioned by Bomber:
     

    The Financial Transaction tax was discussed at length and best question of the day had to go to economist Dr Ganesh Nana who wanted to know that if the panel was serious they should be advocating politicians taking the levers of power off the faceless technocrats and make political decisions with the economy.

     
    I thought the question might have been about totally doing away with the Reserve Bank – but I could be wrong.
     
    I didn’t think the FTT was discussed extensively, or at least, not more than some other stuff.  I thought it was Minto that asked the Business Panel about an FTT.  Walley said half a % would raise more than GST.
     
     
     
    • Poission 10.1

      14 October 2012 at 9:35 pm

      11 EU countries have sent a paper to Brussels on FTT.

      Finance ministers from 11 European Union countries agreed at a meeting in Luxembourg on Tuesday to support a tax on financial transactions, hoping to discourage risky trading while simultaneously raising revenue.

      http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eleven-eu-finance-ministers-agree-to-support-financial-transaction-tax-a-860320.html
11. karol 11

    14 October 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Another couple of points that I didn’t fit into my post (as it was already quite long).
     
    Peter Conway was keen on the “Manufacturers’ Strategy” that South Australia is about to launch. (I know nothing about this, but would be interested to learn.)
     
    Chris Trotter asked the Business Panel if they thought now was the time for politicians to re-look at the policies of 80 years ago.  He asked if we should go back to politics leading over economics?  Something that has been reversed since the 1980s.
     
    Whittaker said, “Yes”.  Walley said, “It’s a political issue…. the GFC will get worse.”
     
    Conway said ,”Yes”, there should be a political economy approach, not a market approach.
12. joe90 12

    14 October 2012 at 5:49 pm

    sigh..and this is what workers are up against…

    http://www.globallabourrights.org/reports?id=0653

    http://www.aflcio.org/Corporate-Watch/CEO-Pay-and-the-99
    • Jokerman 12.1

      14 October 2012 at 9:18 pm

      oh Joe, always sobering.
      (sooner “they” get over themselves and their blind hypocrisy in this country, the sooner we can all eat a ‘banquet’ )
13. karol 13

    15 October 2012 at 6:31 pm

    And Mana is a late entry in publicly supporting the Parliamentary Inquiry:
     

    “MANA fully supports a parliamentary inquiry into manufacturing” says MANA Leader and MP for Te Tai Tokerau Hone Harawira.
     
    “MANA did attend the manufacturing summit on Friday, but due to a communication error that did not see us included in the political press conference it was reported that we were absent. MANA accepts the invitation that was issued by the Greens, Labour and NZ First to participate in the inquiry. We believe the initiative is desperately needed to save an important sector in our economy and we look forward to exploring solutions with other political parties”.
     
    “One solution that could assist with the crisis is the Hone Heke Tax (Financial Transaction Tax).

     
    Good to see so many opposition parties working together.
     
     

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1. Shearer: Jobs that work for you « The Standard: posted on 18 October 2012 at 1:08 pm

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