Why are you leaving for Aussie?

75 comments on “Why are you leaving for Aussie? ”

• Comments are now closed

1. TheContrarian 1

   14 May 2012 at 12:06 pm

   I am not sure anyone is leaving NZ for Aus to take advantage of their capital gains tax or because they lose a public holiday every few years. You also failed to factor in the weather. 
   • Jackal 1.1

     14 May 2012 at 12:16 pm

     Don’t be silly! People are leaving for Aussie because a capital gains tax has made housing more affordable there. There is no incentive to invest in non productive housing to avoid paying tax, which in turn frees up more investment into productive enterprises that creates jobs.
     • Colonial Viper 1.1.1

       14 May 2012 at 12:32 pm

       Housing is NOT affordable in the large coastal cities IMO, unless you are looking for an hour commute. Australia’s housing asset bubble continued pretty much unabated after the GFC.

       If you went inland Queensland or South Australia a couple of hours, yes, there is affordable housing around.
       • Rob 1.1.1.1

         14 May 2012 at 12:47 pm

         Affordable housing in Sydney, are you on drugs.  Just about any humble stand alone property East of Para is over a 1M. 

         Sydney is a very expensive city to live in and Melb isnt too much better.
         • insider 1.1.1.1.1

           14 May 2012 at 12:52 pm

           Even people in Melbourne baulk at moving to Sydney because of housing costs.
       • Jackal 1.1.1.2

         14 May 2012 at 12:59 pm

         You’re right of course CV, the price to income ratio is pretty crap in both countries. In fact it has deteriorated markedly over the last few decades. However it’s likely to be more to do with demand in Australia pushing up prices, which would be worse without a CGT. Where Aussie beats New Zealand hands down is that 59% of houses here aren’t maintained properly, leading to further impacts on productivity due to unwell workers. Property speculators and rack-renters are pretty stingy with maintenance costs, basically because the bubble ensures they make a return. House repairs are often not cost effective in comparison.
         • Rob 1.1.1.2.1

           14 May 2012 at 1:14 pm

           Geez just stop it KJT.  Do you think none of this activity occures in Australia,  ever been to St Clair, Penrith etc.  They have their share of 70’s fibro, non insulated housing issues as well that are really under maintained.

           It makes me sad that people are leaving NZ for Aus.  I have a lot invested here in business, staff family , community etc and there is a threat that NZ will just end as a place for the retired or always tired and can’t be bothered, well I suppose it will be good news for this Blog, plenty more Standard subscribers bitchen about things.

           There is a lot of really good primary industry roles in Aus.  They pay very well, and if you are prepared to live in places like Kalgoolie then its probably a pretty good life.

           However for a profesional role in Syd and Melb , you will need to take a step down on where you are in NZ.  A lot of Corp’s in Aus dont regard the NZ trading experience as being of much value.  For a senior sales director role  in NZ you might be considered for a State role.  Salary might only be a slight increase, but you will have a large cost of living increase.

           The most simplest way of understanding the difference between Aus and Nz is that Aus is a quarry and NZ is a theme park.
           • dave brownz 1.1.1.2.1.1

             14 May 2012 at 1:26 pm

             I would say that NZ is a de facto state of Australia without the benefits of federation. More like a Territory full of mines, trees, grass and a supply of cheap labour, but without the equal political rights. Best thing NZ could do would be to formally join Australia so that the NZ working class could benefit from critical mass, and the pathetic petty bourgeois and kiwi compradors get buried in the competition.
             • Rob …

               14 May 2012 at 1:35 pm

               So Dave, you want to join with Australia in some way and work for an Australian company and somehow out compete NZ business so they go broke and NZers fall over financially.   Righto mate.
               • Te Reo Putake …

                 14 May 2012 at 1:51 pm

                 Rob, you may not be aware, but Aussie companies are already doing that to NZ businesses right now. Most of our banks, supermarkets and large manufacturers are Aussie owned. If we were a state of Oz, we would have the benefit of scale that Dave talks about and vastly enhanced work rights, pay and conditions, anchored against an economy which is still working well.
                  
                 Economic union is effectively here already, monetary union can’t be far away. Political union would just be the last step on a journey already underway. If I remember rightly, the Parliament house in Canberra has room for 20 seats to be added any time we want to join up as part of the lucky country. OK, we wouldn’t rate above Vic or NSW, but we’d be ahead of SA and Tasmania.
                 • prism …

                   14 May 2012 at 3:36 pm

                   TRP That’s the way it is going – even our police hold joint maneourvres with Oz ones. The flow of profits or probably not even invested back here, is great. And how many business coups have we brought off over in Oz?
                 • Rob …

                   14 May 2012 at 5:03 pm

                   TRP I am very aware of ownership of NZ businesses by Aussies.  I am having a chuckle about the idea that you think unions in NZ will get a better deal working for Aus businesses. 

                   If you have this idea that NZ businesses leaders are not union friendly wait till you see the Aussies, especially if an Abbot Govt comes to fruition.

                   Also it is disapointing that you wish to throw Kiwi business owners under the bus, I just think thats sad and really just outlines Daves sad view on things.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     14 May 2012 at 6:09 pm

                     The typical NZ manager/business owner has pretty appalling skills.

                     I am having a chuckle about the idea that you think unions in NZ will get a better deal working for Aus businesses.

                     No no no you got that all wrong: I believe TRP is saying that unions would be stronger working under Australian employment law.
                   • Te Reo Putake …

                     14 May 2012 at 6:19 pm

                     Rob, we are all working for Aussie businesses, more or less, and it is common for negotiations in all areas of NZ business to be signed off in Sydney or Melbourne. That’s the nature of an integrated economy. So why is a surprise to you that NZ unions are already experienced in dealing with Aussie businesses and know their ways?
                     
                     
                     
                      
                      
                   • Rob …

                     14 May 2012 at 6:25 pm

                     Well CV, put your own capital at risk and start you own business employing people if you think you can do better.
                   • Te Reo Putake …

                     14 May 2012 at 6:42 pm

                     “Well CV, put your own capital at risk and start you own business employing people if you think you can do better.”
                      
                     Er, what? Why do you think answer No1 from the big book of reactionary replies to rational arguments applies to what we’ve been discussing? Clue: it doesn’t.
                      
                     It does, however, give weight to CV’s line about the appalling skills of NZ business leaders, if you are any example.
                      
                   • Rob …

                     14 May 2012 at 8:11 pm

                     oh lovely, you just have to wait long enough in this place before the replies become personal.

                     Not worth debating this any longer.
             • Olwyn …

               14 May 2012 at 2:19 pm

               You are onto it dave brownz; for the kiwi compradors and certain right wing Aussie fantasists our crypto-statehood offers the best of both worlds, and for kiwi workers, the worst.
               • dave brownz …

                 14 May 2012 at 5:41 pm

                 Joining with Australia is not about giving up the fight or jumping out of the fp into the fire, but increasing our chance of beating the bastards.
                 Aussie basically owns us. Its a weak imperialist power, itself dominated by the US and China. But by comparison, NZ is a de facto colony of Australia. We are the deputies dog.
                 The working class has no country. Modern nations are inventions of capitalism to form a jurisdiction to protect their private property and profits. But nations long ago became barriers to capital accumulation so today bosses are internationalists. NZs ruling class are agents for international capital. They have no loyalty to NZ except as the bits of it they own as their share of the booty.
                 But as the biggest bits are already owned by Australia, US, UK, Japan and China, to expropriate them we need to ally with the working class in all of those countries. We can build defensive fights in NZ but we can’t win them without international working class support.
                 For example, if we want to expropriate the Aussie banks we have to be in an alliance with Aussie workers. It has nothing to do with the attitude of the bosses towards workers or the industrial laws etc, its about the size, combativity and genuine internationalism of the class. 
                 Its a no brainer really. NZ is reverting to an extractive colony of the late 19th century, when NZ and Australia were both settler colonies, existing only to provide raw materials for the mother countries. So are the Pacific island states being sucked into the TPPA.
                 Similarly, the only resistance movement that will gain any strength will be one based on the fight to prevent the exploitation of raw materials and land in what is a rip, shit, bust neo-colony.  But this time it shouldnt be left to Maori while most white workers act as accomplices in their dispossession. We can unite nationally and internationally across the whole Pacific to take back and take control of the resources we need to survive.
                  
                  
                  
           • KJT 1.1.1.2.1.2

             14 May 2012 at 7:11 pm

             Wha?
           • Dr Terry 1.1.1.2.1.3

             15 May 2012 at 2:18 pm

             Already I am sick of the near exclusive focus on Melbourne and Sydney, there are one hell of a lot of desirable places to live in this huge country!
         • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.2.2

           14 May 2012 at 5:00 pm

           Its not demand for houses which is the primary fuel for house price increases: it is cheap and easy bank credit.
           • Jackal 1.1.1.2.2.1

             14 May 2012 at 7:27 pm

             Which in turn is dependent on household incomes… hence our low and falling home ownership levels in New Zealand.
2. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 2

   14 May 2012 at 12:18 pm

   Disclaimer: these are not reasons given by actual people.
3. TheContrarian 3

   14 May 2012 at 12:19 pm

   Then say “for more affordable housing”.
   • Jackal 3.1

     14 May 2012 at 12:35 pm

     Why? Most people will understand what Zet meant. Highlighting Aussie policies that differ to New Zealand’s and clearly contribute to their $2 billion surplus compared to our whopping deficit is highly appropriate.
     • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 3.1.1

       14 May 2012 at 12:40 pm

       clearly contribute to their $2 billion surplus

       That’s right, their surplus is all down to the mondayised public holidays and the carbon tax.
     • higherstandard 3.1.2

       14 May 2012 at 12:42 pm

       ” Highlighting Aussie policies that differ to New Zealand’s and clearly contribute to their $2 billion surplus compared to our whopping deficit is highly appropriate.”

       There’s one for you.

       1. The Australian resources sector
       • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 3.1.2.1

         14 May 2012 at 12:45 pm

         So being more like Australia on that front would be welcomed, I guess?
         • higherstandard 3.1.2.1.1

           14 May 2012 at 1:18 pm

           Unfortunately we don’t have a fecking great dessert the size of Mexico that we can dig up with ease… and even if we did the retards would march in the street in support of the lesser spotted sand gherkin.
           • insider 3.1.2.1.1.1

             14 May 2012 at 1:45 pm

             you mean there isn’t a giant pavlova in central Otago? Next you’ll be saying there isn’t any Father Christmas. Have you no heart?
           • prism 3.1.2.1.1.2

             14 May 2012 at 3:41 pm

             Or for trying to keep a higher standard alive.
         • Jackal 3.1.2.1.2

           14 May 2012 at 1:38 pm

           That may have been true a number of years ago… However changes in operations management, outsourcing of the workforce and supply purchasing mean that the direct economic benefits of resource operations are no longer focused on local communities.

           Benefits to society are dependent on royalties… With New Zealand having the fourth worst royalty scheme in the world (Example: 5% for oil and 1% for gas), increased mineral extraction is not going to solve any economic problems at all. In fact it will simply create more environmental destruction that the government ends up paying for, which far outweighs the debatable financial benefit the rightwing like to use as an excuse to contribute even more to little things like CLIMATE CHANGE.
           • insider 3.1.2.1.2.1

             14 May 2012 at 2:10 pm

             Utter bullcrap on royalty levels. They are much higher. You have only mentioned the ad valorem rates and ignored the additional accounting profits rate of 15 percent to 20 per cent which must also be paid
             • Jackal …

               14 May 2012 at 2:38 pm

               You’re arguing against the Independent Petroleum Association of America there Insider. Here’s the International Petroleum Taxation report (PDF) that shows New Zealand has the fourth lowest royalty scheme in the world (Page 9). Along with the government paying for most of the initial exploration and a perpetual tax holiday, there is very little benefit for New Zealand from resource extraction. It’s another rightwing myth.
               • insider …

                 14 May 2012 at 3:00 pm

                 I’m not arguing that royalty rates are relatively low, just that your presentation of them as 1% to 5% is a dishonest fiction ( and the IPAA report supports that saying the ‘effective rate’ is closer to 50%). It’s like saying we are a low personal tax rate economy because we only tax people 10.5% and then forgetting to say that is only on the first 14k of income.
                 • Jackal …

                   14 May 2012 at 3:48 pm

                   It looks like your confusing the Australian rate with the New Zealand rate… much like Rob in his comment below. I should probably have quoted the Crown Minerals figures of 5% for oil and 1% for gas as AVR. Good on you for working it out insider.

                   APR must be paid? Only if there are profits after costs which can include: associated production costs, capital costs, exploration costs, development costs, permit acquisition and feasibility cost, indirect costs, abandonment costs, operating and capital allowance etc.
                   • insider …

                     14 May 2012 at 4:48 pm

                     The only one confused is you. And APR will effectively be paid on any successful production well. The govt is very capable of seeing padding of expenses and minimised sales that remarkably zero out, and the Minister can within reason deem the amount owed by disallowing unreasonable costs.
                   • Jackal …

                     14 May 2012 at 5:27 pm

                     Are you saying that those costs I’ve outlined are unreasonable insider… because they’re all used. It’s either the payment of AVR or APR (whichever is the greater in any given year), not both. You seem to have the APR confused with income tax. Rentals in New Zealand are Roughly 2¢/acre per year. National is good at disallowing unreasonable costs… don’t make me laugh!
                   • insider …

                     14 May 2012 at 6:25 pm

                     No they are all listed in the royalty schedules, but if you try claiming $10m in costs for a job on that schedule that would usually be estimated to cost $1m, in order to maximise internal income and minimise the bit you are required to pay royalties on, you’d be best advised not to as the Minister could deem it as only costing $1m and you could be seriously out of pocket if it actually cost $2m.
                   • Jackal …

                     14 May 2012 at 7:02 pm

                     You mean like the oil and gas industry never exaggerating finds to increase capital investment… nah! They would never do that eh insider. There’s no smoke and mirrors about the jobs it creates either. Being that some MP’s have shares in those oil and gas companies… they’ve absolutely no reason to mislead the public at all. /sarc
           • Rob 3.1.2.1.2.2

             14 May 2012 at 2:45 pm

             Really Jackal, so there are no benefits to local communities, been to Perth recently?
             • dd …

               14 May 2012 at 2:53 pm

               They have a lot of available land to mine we have a lot of land to farm. Using mining as the one reason Aus is better off is pretty moronic.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 14 May 2012 at 3:12 pm

                 Australia is a two product two customer country. And China and Japan aren’t going to be sustaining Oz economic growth for much longer.
                 • Rob …

                   14 May 2012 at 3:42 pm

                   And this I firmly agree with CV.  The decline in consumer durables being fabricated and assembled out of China is starting to hit.  China was banking on its own internal consumerism to take up the lag from the decline in export sales. This is leading to lower purchases of key raw materials, and Aussie is a big producer of these.

                   The biggest question going forward is how robust is the internal , non mineral producing economy, and by most figures & discussions it is not that rosy. 
4. freedom 4

   14 May 2012 at 12:46 pm

   Australia: earn $18 k before paying income tax,
   NZ: pay from dollar one
   mmm tough choice

   if only it wasn’t turning into little America even faster than we are
   http://www.melbournetimesweekly.com.au/news/national/national/general/police-seek-bigger-picture-in-using-drones-but-libertarians-incensed/2553873.aspx
   • Rob 4.1

     14 May 2012 at 1:26 pm

     Wow tax cuts Freedom, yeah bring it on. 

     Didn’t Shearer reject the 5K tax free rate as it will do almost nothing for low paid workers.
     • freedom 4.1.1

       14 May 2012 at 2:12 pm

       who was talking about Shearer? I certainly wasn’t.

       NZ not having a basic tax free allowance is one of the critical faults in our economy as virtually every dollar of a low income is directed to the sustainability of the national community. I have often found the people who fault the framework of a tax free allowance, to be somewhat ignorant of what a community is. Besides, with 15% GST and pretty much every cent of low income earnings going to GST related expenses, those on low incomes still pay plenty of tax. Although the income tax-take would need some adjustment to compensate, I firmly believe there would be an increase in Kiwisaver/Superfunds as many would simply transfer some of what they were paying in income tax to a Kiwisaver/Superfund account. So the government still receives a fair whack of the low income earn be it as dividends or as tax.

       The Aussie plan for AUS18K as the jumping off point is a little high for NZ. I believe introducing a tax free allowance of NZD 10K to be an economically secure springboard with an incremental adjustment to 15K within ten years. I sincerely believe NZ’s low income earners have been screwed over on this subject long enough. One of the primary reasons the major parties steer clear of the subject is that it exposes the indefensible position of the NZ income tax structure when compared to our own allies. The same allies that we use to build a vast menagerie of economic comparatives from. They have been making sure their citizens had a basic survival fund for decades, not here though.
     • Colonial Viper 4.1.2

       14 May 2012 at 8:21 pm

       Didn’t Shearer reject the 5K tax free rate as it will do almost nothing for low paid workers.

       $15 to $20 per week in hand is pretty damn good mate. Especially combined with a $15/hr minimum wage.

       Of course, to Key (who gave himself a $1K p.w. tax cut) this is all peanuts.
5. Rosie 5

   14 May 2012 at 1:03 pm

   What about staying here and fighting to get our country back out of the hands of fools?

   Yes, things are really shit here and I’ve been personally adversely affected by the recession, the way it has been handled and by bad policy introduced by the Nat Govt, increased GST and 90 day bill just two examples, but there is no way in hell I’d give up my turf. I often think of what my ancestors went through during the Highland Clearances. They faced extreme deprivation and horrific crimes against them and they didn’t give up. Sure you can’t compare the countries or historic times but theres alot to be said for being strong and standing up. I feel I’d be selling out if I just buggered off to Oz.

   We have too much too lose by just walking away from our country because its easier to do.
   • ChrisH 5.1

     14 May 2012 at 2:14 pm

     Surely some of them must have emigrated to NZ Rosie 😉
     • Rosie 5.1.1

       14 May 2012 at 2:35 pm

       Out of my lot Chris, some stayed in Scotland, some went to Oz, some went to NZ and some of the original OZ emigree’s then came here – OZ too hot for them lol! 100% of my Irish ancestors came here. Plenty of green grass for them to breed champion race horses. Beat that Oz!
       • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1

         14 May 2012 at 8:24 pm

         Phar Lap was definitely an Australian horse.

         😛
   • prism 5.2

     14 May 2012 at 2:49 pm

     The Scots and the Irish both left their homeland to find a better place to live their lives, but they did not forget their homeland. NZs going to Aussie ought to see they keep a fund put away so they can get back here if things go pear shaped there. As they sometimes do.
   • Placebogirl 5.3

     14 May 2012 at 4:55 pm

     Because I was literally on the breadline in New Zealand. My partner was working, I was in higher education, and I could not find a job. We had a (very) small mortgage we were struggling to pay, and due to his income, despite the fact we were not married I was entitled to no state support–I made less than $10k/year of my own money, and I had to pay my share of the mortgage out of that. I was offered a job in Australia that lifted me out of poverty, thus giving me the time and energy (previously spent working out how much we could afford for groceries and whether we could afford to fill the gas bottle to heat our house) to become politically engaged. Sadly, I had already qualified myself out of the market in New Zealand; there are literally no jobs for me there.

     That’s why I left, rather than staying to fight. Because I couldn’t fight if I stayed.
6. Rosie 6

   14 May 2012 at 1:08 pm

   Don’t forget all the droughts, water restrictions, fires, floods, speedo’s and horrible nasty posionous things
   • Lanthanide 6.1

     14 May 2012 at 5:07 pm

     “speedo’s”

     Depends entirely on who is wearing them as to whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing.
     • felix 6.1.1

       14 May 2012 at 5:26 pm

       Lockie? http://www.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/lockwood2.jpg
     • Rosie 6.1.2

       14 May 2012 at 5:27 pm

       When it’s the leader of the opposition it’s definitely a bad thing………That dude is outta control
7. Dr Terry 7

   14 May 2012 at 1:45 pm

   Admirable sentiments, Rosie, but do we actually have to return to the days and ways of our ancestors? Rather than “giving up” great numbers of New Zealanders are “taking up” a new opportunity (which probably is far from easy to do). Replace “selling out’ with “self respect”.
   Nevertheless, though many might be wanting Australia (and not only Sydney and Melbourne), the question is for how long will Australia continue to want us?
   • Rosie 7.1

     14 May 2012 at 2:06 pm

     Dr Terry, I’m not advocating a return to the days of our ancestors I’m advocating a reutrn to standing up for what is ours, ( in itself standing up incorporates “self respect”) and indeed our way of life that ancestors help shape for us here in NZ. And I DO believe we are giving up. Look at the apathy of voters: Two problems here, not bothering to turn up on voting day and then being total retards when they do vote.

     The good policy that Aus has, eg, Capital Gains Tax as just one example could be ours if only NZers would wake up. Good employment policy, good tax policy could all be ours and a genuine “brighter future” could all be ours. We have been beaten down into believing that Aus is paved with gold. Geez when you’ve got a problem you deal with it, you don’t walk away. Going to live with the neighbour seems to be such a cop out to me.

     I’m married to an Aus citizen and even he never wants to return. He can probably get more money there but the trade off is too high and there is nothing there that appeals. The only Aus city I’ve actually enjoyed being in is Melbourne. Also, we think we have problems with racism,and we do, serious problems with it, but the average white Australian is a very frightening beast. Ask any Aborigine or immigrant. I don’t want to live among folks like that.
     • Dr Terry 7.1.1

       15 May 2012 at 2:32 pm

       Thanks, Rosie. For the most part I am absolutely with you and I agree that you offer good and valid points. After reading the above, I much better appreciate your perspective which, at least, I hope, will make us all “think”! Life is just not easy, pretty much whatever we decide to do with it! Keep writing in, for I believe that your comments are among the best.
       Terry
8. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8

   14 May 2012 at 1:52 pm

   I left for tha aunties.
9. Tom 9

   14 May 2012 at 2:55 pm

   Why does it have to be a question of either/or ? I have lived on both sides of the Tasman, finding there are more opportunities in a bigger economy, but also more competition.

   As someone put it to me, Sydney sucks people in .. and then spits them out.
   • tc 9.1

     14 May 2012 at 8:01 pm

     As an expat kiwi said to me ‘nz is nice and it’s great to see the family but Australia is the meal ticket’ which pretty much sums it up for me.

     Oz is a fantastic place once you figure it out, the Nats claim of catching up to it as part of the brighter future was an obvious lie that most people were onto yet still they voted for them……go figure.
10. prism 10

    14 May 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Tom 😀
11. Bruce 11

    14 May 2012 at 3:36 pm

    Half my family are over there.
12. her 12

    14 May 2012 at 4:14 pm

    Bugger Oz, I’m going to move somewhere good.
13. JonL 13

    14 May 2012 at 4:51 pm

    I live outside Perth. I didn’t come to settle in OZ – I followed a woman (but, that’s another story)
    I’d like to come back, but, I don’t see it any time soon – if I did, I’d have to find a job, and the equivalent in NZ would pay 40% less with higher consumer costs! ….assuming I could get one at my age!
    So – it looks like I’ll be staying on our self contained, solar powered 10 acres with bores and tanks for a while longer – we certainly couldn’t replace what we’ve got in NZ – even allowing for the exchange rate difference!
    Sad really…….
14. Roy 14

    14 May 2012 at 7:19 pm

    Sorely tempted but I have lived there before and didn’t like the heat, the dryness, the bugs or the racism. Still I could decide that I can endure all of them, one of these days…
15. vto 15

    14 May 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Aussie has held no appeal since Kylie Minogue left.
    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      14 May 2012 at 8:05 pm

      Is Danii still there?
16. Jenny 16

    14 May 2012 at 8:40 pm

    ….. They have unions there.
17. Blue 17

    14 May 2012 at 9:23 pm

    People in their own words on why they want to leave NZ:

    “My pay now is not much higher than a school drop out working at the supermarket, so if I can find a job, any job, then I’m out of here.”

    “There is definitely a better chance of me becoming a home owner in Adelaide, where I plan to go, than here in Auckland.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10805706

    It’s a no-brainer really. What most people want in life is a decent job and to own a home of their own. Not such a big ask, you would have thought.

    But NZ is increasingly becoming the sort of place where even those simple dreams can’t be realised.

    And once you can’t meet the basic needs of your citizens they will pack up and go elsewhere.

    Both sides of the political spectrum need to sit up and take this more seriously. Housing and jobs. That’s where it’s at. Housing and jobs.
    • Jackal 17.1

      14 May 2012 at 9:48 pm

      +1

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS