Winners and losers

Written By: - Date published: 8:04 am, November 21st, 2012 - 156 comments
Categories: david cunliffe, david shearer, grant robertson, john key, mana, russel norman - Tags:

Winners:
John Key – he can, for now, look forward to facing a Labour leader who corrects himself when he accidentally says he’ll be leader in 2015, doesn’t know anything about the economy, and can’t articulate himself
Russel Norman – Ditto. Norman is now the strongest leftwing economic communicator standing. Shearer’s people are so afraid of Norman they refused an invitation to put Shearer up alongside him on The Nation to discuss the joint manufacturing inquiry.
Andrew Little – he would have been economic development spokesperson under either Cunliffe or Shearer but now the promotion’s a definite. He’ll do a good job … but he’ll have to be careful not to repeat the past and have his good work overshadow the Leader or Mallard will move to stop him getting questions and media support.

Losers:
The Left and New Zealand – we now face the spectre of Shearer letting Key have three more years
Robertson – the weekend’s rules changes mean that Robertson can only longer roll Shearer without sparking a leadership contest that Cunliffe and Little, at least, could also be part of. And I can’t see the membership backing the strategy man of the disastrous 2011 campaign, who has succeeding in turning Labour into a third party in Wellington Central.
Shearer – anointed as a joke by the Right at a post-election BBQ at Matthew Hooton’s (Hooton and Slater started clapping him and announced him as Labour’s new leader) and taken on as the old guard’s frontman when it was clear Parker would lose to Cunliffe, Shearer is now brandless and his only supporters are the rightwing commentariat who still know an easy beat when they see one

Winners in the long-run:
The Labour membership – the old guard is so terrified of what the membership will do to them given half a chance that they’ll do anything to prevent Shearer’s leadership going to a democratic vote. But, never fear, the next round of Labour constitutional reforms gives members more power over the list and electorate candidate selection. There will be a number of soft Shearer backers getting the word in the next few months that if they block a democratic leadership vote in February, their LECs will punish them.
Cunliffe – at least ten other Labour MPs have refused to confirm they’ll back Shearer in February but, for some reason, it’s only a sacking offence for Cunliffe. He might have been smarter just to lie on Saturday. The irony of the old guard and Labour’s media staffers going around saying he’s an egotist is he’s the one who has played clean throughout and wants to do what’s best for the party. (just note how Cunliffe obeyed the rules and didn’t say what happened in caucus but load up the Herald today, and there’s the old guard’s account)

156 comments on “Winners and losers ”

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  1. the sprout 1
    21 November 2012 at 8:12 am

    Great analysis eddie. Glad to see Shearer and Robertson are now seen for what they are.

    • Tom Gould 1.1
      21 November 2012 at 8:31 am

      Shearer will win easy in 2014 with his team devoting their time and energy to winning rather than to undermining and white anting the leader. It will be a stretch for some because it will mean doing some actual work, rather than sitting around comfortable offices with a chardy, moaning and sniping and musing about what should be done by someone else.

      • Matthew 1.1.1
        21 November 2012 at 9:43 am

        Seriously? David Shearer couldnt win a meat raffle. Up against John Key he looks about as politically capable as Elmo, & just like Elmo, he is a puppet with a puppetmaster’s hand firmly up his ass.& he just demoted the only one who actually does some work…
        Tell me, when was the last time you saw anything positive about Trevor mallard, or Annette King, or David parker…. these are the people who claim to be able to lead Labour to a victory in 2014…..

        • Tom Gould 1.1.1.1
          21 November 2012 at 2:30 pm

          Kiwibuild is down to Annette. The CGT is down to Parker. Beyond a couple of self-serving speeches plagiarising a few magazine articles, what has your man done in the last 4 years, other than plotting and scheming to engorge his ego? Ever wondered why he always speaks last in any discussion? An original thought would be a miracle.

          • blue leopard 1.1.1.1.1
            21 November 2012 at 6:07 pm

            We have a noticeably puerile Government at present and the same one last term and throughout my observations I have been ripping my hair out wondering why the opposition of last term are so polite to this idiotic governments and don’t put the idiotic statements they spout, in their place.

            It should be so easy to make this Government look ridiculous and remarkably few people did so last term. Hone Harawira did, in the interview with Brash on Close-up (Brash wasn’t in power, however, was spouting the same old nonsense that Key&co do) and Mr Cunliffe achieved it with Mr English on Q&A or The Nation (around election-time).

            This term there have been more instances of this with Mr Peters on their case.

            This quality that Mr Cunliffe showed on the interview with Mr English, is an extremely important quality and it should not be under-valued, as it appears to be. Politicians need to look like they want to govern. Mr Cunliffe is convincing in this. I can’t say the same for a lot of the other main players in this recent fiasco.

        • geoff 1.1.1.2
          21 November 2012 at 2:31 pm

          +1Matthew!
          Speaking of muppets, Tom Gould, you are one.

          • lurgee 1.1.1.2.1
            21 November 2012 at 7:01 pm

            Can we have an end to theses silly ‘+1’ type comments. Really, if you can’t be bothered expressing your opinions in a slightly thoughtful manner, keep them to yourself.

            I’ve noticed the moderators have been waving the big stick about all over the place recently, whacking people for ‘astroturfing’ and ‘spamming’ threads with ‘Me too’ comments. ‘+1’ type comments seem to be ignored when appended to anti-Shearer diatribes. Why is that?

        • Hami Shearlie 1.1.1.3
          21 November 2012 at 7:00 pm

          Matthew, you said Shearer is like Elmo -Well look what’s just happened to Elmo??????

  2. One Tāne Huna 2
    21 November 2012 at 8:12 am

    Winner: Patrick Gower, who now wears the leader of the opposition like a sock puppet.

    • David H 2.1
      21 November 2012 at 9:47 am

      Losers : the people who democratically voted Cunliffe in.
      Loser: Hipkins He should have kept his red head down.
      Loser: Gower Cunliffe has a long memory!
      Loser Shearer Just plain Captain Stumblebum emerged victorious from a rigged caucus, only to reinforce the stuttering, bumbling, fool he really is on national TV Loser, LosER, LOSER!
      Winner: Cunliffe after watching said stuttering bumbling fool on National TV.

      • Tigger 2.1.1
        21 November 2012 at 11:06 am

        Yep, I’d single out Hipkins as a major loser here. I never understood how he got that job, given his apparent lack of experience. Now I’m wondering how he can legitimately keep his job.

  3. Fisiani 3
    21 November 2012 at 8:18 am

    So in summary Eddie

    Labour cannot win in 2014 with Shearer as leader.
    In order to win in 2014 -Shearer must be overthrown.
    So there could be two years of positioning to achieve this.
    Is your view shared by most of the posters here?
    If so then the blog nature changes from in general being supportive of Labour to become a vehicle to unseat Shearer. Seismic shift.

    • One Tāne Huna 3.1
      21 November 2012 at 8:21 am

      Seismic shift, or simply more weasel bullshit from a wingnut?

    • Bill 3.2
      21 November 2012 at 8:24 am

      Fisiani. Have you not been reading the actual posts of late? February. Leadership confidence vote followed by party wide leadership vote. That’s, erm…three months. Not two years.

    • Dr Terry 3.3
      21 November 2012 at 9:36 am

      Thanks Eddie, well spoken. You mention “the spectre of Key having three more years”. Never, ever, did I think I would say this, but I wonder if that would be preferable. Shearer shows all the signs of a dictator in the making, and might even be worse than Key (even though hard to imagine!)

      I cannot agree that Cunliffe “might have been smarter to lie on Saturday”. He alone appears to be maintaining integrity, while his colleagues are hesitant to speak up (cowardly?) Shearer permitted only himself to speak. What does that tell us for the future? Cunliffe’s “crime” was refusal to be a yes-man to a lesser person than he.

      Thus I agree with your words, “He’s the only one who has played clean throughout”.

      • seeker 3.3.1
        21 November 2012 at 6:31 pm

        “Cunliffe’s “crime” was refusal to be a yes-man to a lesser person than he.”

        An excellent assessment Dr. T

      • Grassroots 3.3.2
        21 November 2012 at 11:13 pm

        Totally agree. Cunliffe was too honest and patient to the media over the weekend, he could easily praise the leader and walk away as other MPs. Image if that happened, what excuses the old guards could find to hammer him?

  4. Cactus Kate 4
    21 November 2012 at 8:19 am

    For the zillionth time Slater wasn’t at the BBQ so couldn’t have clapped. And All left wingers then in attendance were positively fawning over Shearer.

    Until they realized of course Matthew Hooton had a better audience with him than they did.

    • Matthew Hooton 4.1
      21 November 2012 at 8:54 am

      Cactus, don’t worry, I’m not sure that Eddie is interested in the truth. Just like the new line from Team Cunliffe, that:
      1. there never was a leadership challenge planned for the conference
      2. no destabilisation and sabotage took place
      3. poor little persecuted Cunners has always been totally loyal to his leader, and
      4. the neoliberal establishment has invented the coup talk as a way of destroying Cunliffe – with Paddy Gower etc acting on orders from the Big Business owners of TV3 – because he represents such a threat to the status quo (being so left wing and all).
      If this was mere spin it would be perhaps forgivable, but I think some of these loonies actually believe it all.

      • pete 4.1.1
        18 November 2012 at 3:39 pm

        It’s not “mad”. It’s the market working perfectly. And rationally.

        Your problem is that demand exceeds supply. Prices rise. To solve this problem, and to not sprawl Auckland out, or up, which is going to create even more infrastructure costs, we simply incentivise business to move to the regions. Dunedin and Nelson, for example. Use differential tax rates, and other incentives, such as more points for immigrants who settle outside Auckland.

        These other towns and cities have underused infrastructure. They could absorb many more people, and their land cost would remain relatively low.

        • Colin 4.1.1.1
          21 November 2012 at 11:07 am

          @pete is right Hundreds of millions are being wasted propping up oversized Auckland at the expense of regions

      • felix 4.1.2
        21 November 2012 at 9:07 am

        Only have your say-so that there was ever a challenge planned for the conference, and your say-so is notoriously unreliable. And as it turns out there was no challenge mounted, just as Cunliffe repeatedly stated when repeatedly asked.

        Yet to see any evidence of this supposed destabilisation, disloyalty and sabotage. Will you be presenting any?

        Or just the usual luke-warm air?

        ps I love your strawman conspiracy theory. Should get a bit of mileage out of that.

        pps what quartz said.

      • rosy 4.1.3
        21 November 2012 at 9:09 am

        In some sense it doesn’t matter which version people believe it matters that Shearer and his advisors have handled this whole thing really, really badly.

        It’s been cringe-worthy to watch and read about Shearer figuratively stamping his feet, claiming to be the biggest person in the room and acting like an all round school room prefect – all bossy no natural (or learned) authority on show – yet apparently he has plenty. In other words unable to project leadership or any other people management skills. Just dreadful, imo.

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.3.1
          21 November 2012 at 9:15 am

          If Team Shearer knew there was a leadership challenge planned for the conference why didn’t they head it off beforehand? A miscalculation?

          The key event was the passing of the relatively low 40% no-confidence threshold by the Conference delegates, which was NOT expected by Team Shearer. They had been expecting either a 50% or 55% threshold which they would have been moderately confident of winning.

          It was at that point that panic and fear set in – Team Shearer looked bloody grim and some of their weaker MPs outright scared. Their response was on Sunday – essentially to concoct and push the story of an imminent leadership challenge from Cunliffe while ignoring the fact that MPs have the RIGHT to vote in February’s SECRET ballot as they wish, and that Team Shearer actually have to EARN their pass vote from caucus, not INTIMIDATE it from them.

          • rosy 4.1.3.1.1
            21 November 2012 at 9:25 am

            If Team Shearer knew there was a leadership challenge planned for the conference why didn’t they head it off beforehand? A miscalculation?

            Ah… sorry CV I deleted that line while you were replying – appreciate the answer though, very informative. Amazing how everything turned on that vote, and somehow Cunliffe conspired to get all those people to vote for what he wanted and to quote Mr Hooten “If this was mere spin it would be perhaps forgivable, but I think some of these [backers] actually believe it all”.

      • Craig Glen Eden 4.1.4
        21 November 2012 at 9:14 am

        So Mathew as you are so interested in the facts and you are the fountain of truth please show us all your evidence that Cunliffe was going to mount a Leaderships challenge at conference. Lets see it.
        Of coarse Mathew wants to see Shearer stay so his mate Key gets sell whats left of NZ.

        • weka 4.1.4.1
          21 November 2012 at 9:44 am

          Or anyone who thinks there was a leadership coup attempt could present some evidence. Any evidence at all would be a start.

          • Richard Christie 4.1.4.1.1
            21 November 2012 at 10:08 am

            +1

            • You_Fool 4.1.4.1.1.1
              21 November 2012 at 10:51 am

              The evidence appears to be that Cunliffe publicly supported Shearer… and we all “know” that means that he was right on the verge of starting a violent and bloody coup…. right?

      • Dr Terry 4.1.5
        21 November 2012 at 9:40 am

        Well, Matt, with regard to “loonies” (apart from being a put down those with mental difficulties), I can only say that “it takes one to know one”. I am so pleased never to have met you.

      • lprent 4.1.6
        21 November 2012 at 12:15 pm

        MH: Points 1 & 2:

        Actually I’m sure that there was not. I think that Cunliffe was just collateral damage for the members and affiliates finding Amendment G (and even C) on the remit on rule 297A a hell of a lot more to their taste than the either the existing situation or the alternatives.

        If I had to describe it, I think that Auckland sandbagged the beltway with some welcome help from affiliates (who have been looking for this chance since the 80’s) because they were pissed off about how the leadership roadshow was ignored last year by the beltway. A whole pile of otherwise unaffiliated electorates (ie without electorate MP’s) thought it was a good idea and came along for the ride. It obviously wasn’t a widespread plan even in Auckland because there were a few people who’d I’d have thought would be in on anything going, who were still worried about the implications on Saturday afternoon.

        It obviously caught some people completely unprepared. The lobbying against started quite late on friday night and saturday morning. And was almost exclusively from opponents of Amendment G from what I found out later. Delegates voted for that amendment because they thought it was a good idea, and because it came on to the remit book late (as many do), it was voted on by people following the direction set by their branches and LEC’s in favour of more say in the leadership process.

        • Matthew Hooton 4.1.6.1
          21 November 2012 at 12:52 pm

          Lynn, if that’s true, then I think Team Cunliffe may have a bigger problem with their candidate, because it would mean that:

          a) he accidentally generated media coverage that made the public perception of the conference that it was a fiasco (when he should have known what Gower and the rest would do with the comments he made), or

          b) he was out-manaeuvered by Team Shearer (and/or the neoliberal right?) into making it look as if he was trying to turn the conference into a fiasco even when he wasn’t, or perhaps

          c) some of his supporters (like Greg Presland and some writers here) decided on their own to launch something of a challenge before the conference, and Cunliffe then got blamed for it, even though he knew nothing about it.

          None of these possibilities bodes well for someone who wants to take on John Key (which, he says, he doesn’t of course, because he’s totally loyal to Shearer and, “crikey dick”, hasn’t even thought about standing for the leadership … )

          But any of the options above would make him more Brash than Key in terms of political antennae.

          • Craig Glen Eden 4.1.6.1.1
            21 November 2012 at 1:00 pm

            Which leaves Mathew back at his meme leave Shearer in place so Key can continue.

          • blue leopard 4.1.6.1.2
            21 November 2012 at 1:09 pm

            I hope that noone is taking Mr Hooton’s comments with any seriousness, it is full of spin.

            It is entirely fallacious to say that Mr Cunliffe “accidentally” generated media coverage. The people who talked to that idiot political commentator off TV3 (his name eludes me, was it “the blob”, no, that couldn’t be right…) that lead to the bitchy little snitch-fest article against Cunliffe a few months back have set a precedent that leads me to be assured that they would have done so again in this instance.

            I didn’t bother reading the rest of Mr Hooton’s comments due to the rubbish contained in the first point.

            Boy you right-whingers must be laughing all the way to the bank over this one.

            …Meanwhile NZ continues to burn….

            • David H 4.1.6.1.2.1
              21 November 2012 at 5:39 pm

              Gutbuster Garner, and his Nasty little side/dropkick, Grunting Gower!

            • lurgee 4.1.6.1.2.2
              21 November 2012 at 7:08 pm

              Obviously, the fact that Hooton was giving a list of possible scenarios, not stating ‘This is what happened’ passed you by.

              It’s a grim day when Matthew Hootn – MATHEW HOOTON – sound saner and more measured than supposed socialists posting here.

              • blue leopard …
                21 November 2012 at 7:52 pm

                @Lurgee
                As I said in my comment, I didn’t read most of the post and apparently I didn’t even read that perfectly. That I took so little time in reading the verbiage that I missed something that was being said pleases me…it pleases me very much.

                You may support the spin doctors spin
                its a free-worldm Lurgee
                I consider that activity a waste of time.

                • lurgee …
                  22 November 2012 at 4:01 pm

                  I’d consider posting about comments you haven’t read a waste of time, but each to his own.

                  • blue leopard …
                    22 November 2012 at 8:05 pm

                    I note, that despite not getting the context spot on, and having indicated I didn’t read the whole comment; my comments still stands as a response to point a). which is what I wished to relay.

                    You make a fair point though; it probably is a good idea to read a whole comment prior to commenting (!).

                    With regards to Mr Hootons comments, however, this point could be debated. Some sort of assessment as to whether the reading of his spin was worth it; balanced against merely picking one aspect of his twisted message and commenting on that, might come out supporting my choice in this instance.

          • geoff 4.1.6.1.3
            21 November 2012 at 2:51 pm

            MH:
            The truth is that no one but Cunliffe himself knows what he was or wasn’t trying to do at the conference.

            What you (and many others) seem to have failed to grasp is that how this episode was perceived in the media is largely irrelevant. What matters much more is how the Labour Party membership perceived how events unfolded because they now hold a great deal more power.

            If you assume that Cunliffe is still interested in the leadership then he may be in a very strong position. It is a definite possibility that the membership was appalled and angered at how ‘Team Shearer’ responded to the conference. So when February arrives, and it will, if he can get his 40% caucus support then you may glean just how shrewd an operator Mr Cunliffe has been…

            • Colonial Viper 4.1.6.1.3.1
              21 November 2012 at 3:01 pm

              What matters much more is how the Labour Party membership perceived how events unfolded because they now hold a great deal more power.

              Hundreds of Labour Party members and activists were there in the weekend, saw events unfold firsthand, and are simply shocked at how systematically inaccurately the Conference has been reported.

            • David H 4.1.6.1.3.2
              21 November 2012 at 5:40 pm

              Maybe he should have just stayed home but they would have used that against him as well. Fucking cowardly Ducks and Mallards.

          • lprent 4.1.6.1.4
            21 November 2012 at 3:13 pm

            On point a – there are quite a few people here who can testify that the cameras (and patrick gower) were quite literally there sitting in Cunliffe’s face for much of late saturday afternoon and most of sunday morning. It got got the point that it was damn near a standing joke. I was being pretty conscientious in my media pass role. But I got told about it several times. Especially after some of young labour made a point of surrounding him to prevent Gower asking “the question” for the umpteenth time. The “story” was manufactured…

            On your point b – Yes he was. They apparently were lobbying extensively on friday night against amendment G after news of the affliates decision became known. I was getting tales of it via phone and email. I’m pretty sure that they thought they’d made it up until the card vote. It was only after that has failed that the Cunliffe stuff started really going ape and the timeline of cause and effect suddenly got reversed (you know the routine). You can hardly blame the members for actually thinking and doing what they wanted to – so there must be a evil genius around we can blame everything on. I suspect that Cunliffe was as surprised that it got through as some of the veterans of the 80’s and 90’s were…

            On your point c – That worked the other way around as well. There have been a lot of discussions and irritation about the way that the leadership decision took place earlier in the year. Obviously there wasn’t a hell of a lot that could have been done about it because of the constitution. But the review process quickly found that to be one of the things that the party members absolutely wanted to be involved in. It has been simmering all year. It went from the initial proposed one third (ie so it would never happen), to 45% to 50% and finally to 60% and this shows in the amendments.

            Eddie and Irish have been deeply unhappy about the caucus leadership vote. I was just outright irritated by the evident stupidity of it which I have expressed at various times. The caucus performance in shifting the polls hasn’t exactly inspired confidence. Nor has the evident cronyism. I don’t think either of them are particularly Cunliffe fans. Nor am I. But at least he had the basic skills a politician needs in front of a camera. His abilities to control a caucus would be more in doubt, but so are the idiots who let Shane Jones out without putting a muzzle and leash on him.

            So after the Vernon Small story came out before conference, r0b put up a post in rebuttal (the sequence on iPredict is bullshit BTW). Eddie had a post he’d been writing and pushed it out, and then everyone else started expressing their opinion. The only one I knew about was that Irish was planning to do something before conference and I’d expressed my opinions to him.

            I think that Cunliffe was as surprised by the outcome as caucus and then out manoeuvred. The obvious thing for caucus to do once the trigger got set at 60% was to kneecap the caucus opposition that trigger a leadership vote going to the members – so “the old guard” did it. But I suspect they are still deluding themselves that the party members are happy with them and their performances last year and this year. There are some that are (godknows why). But there are a lot who are not – as you can see here.

            I’m one of them. I’ve simply stopped working on anything in the party because I’ve gotten so frustrated with it. I also really don’t have time to piss around after getting a wake up last year. There is a pretty active reform movement going on up in Auckland these days. But hell, I’ve spent 20 years trying to change things at an operational level and at the end of it we got a pissant 1970’s red-dot system – now on the web. So I’m leaving them to it.

            The Standard is far more fun.

            • quartz 4.1.6.1.4.1
              22 November 2012 at 12:57 pm

              the sequence on iPredict is bullshit BTW

              The listener article iPredict claim was published on the 10th was actually published the month before. Slater was quoting from in on the 28th of October. Hooton really is a retard.

          • David H 4.1.6.1.5
            21 November 2012 at 5:36 pm

            YEAH YEAH YEAH. Typical Hooten, Can’t write anything that looks, A: interesting and B: ORIGINAL.

        • Pat 4.1.6.2
          25 November 2012 at 4:49 pm

          Interesting. The actual amendment that changed the trigger from 50% and 1 to 40% was from the Whangarei LEC and printed in the booklet for the conference. Nobody should have been surprised it was coming up, just some seemed to think they could bury it…..

      • thatguynz 4.1.7
        21 November 2012 at 2:32 pm

        There’s a surprise, you two clowns hunting in pairs… 

      • seeker 4.1.8
        21 November 2012 at 6:37 pm

        @Matthew Hooten 8.54 am

        I am certainly not ‘loony’.
        We believe it because we have witnessed it and seen for ourselves-inspite of TV and Press and Politicians presenting and spinning hearsay as fact.As you are so in tune with the truth Matthew please try to become a more principled human being before you kick the bucket. It might mean you have a more comfortable afterlife.

      • SPC 4.1.9
        22 November 2012 at 12:32 am

        Who was it who said that Shearer should stand down and be replaced by Cunliffe on 16 November in their NBR article?

        To build up a sense of paranoia in Shearer so that he would assert himself?

        Was Hooton in on the plan to demonise Cunliffe and demote him?

        • felix 4.1.9.1
          22 November 2012 at 12:35 am

          It’s not really a “plan” – just a few like minds who think they know what needs to be done.

          • SPC 4.1.9.1.1
            22 November 2012 at 12:39 am

            A few months ago – Hooton’s claim that a third party is trying to cause Shearer-Cunliffe conflict.

            http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/shearer-deserves-greater-loyalty-ck-126742

            His current spin is that this will all now blow over within a week.

            My main point is that first there is the attempt to cause paranoia, then the attempt to reassure the faction that acts in response to the incitement that they did the right thing.

            It’s like the puppets are reading an auto-cue.

  5. karol 5
    21 November 2012 at 8:23 am

    Was despondent last night.  Having slept on it, I am now starting to be angry – which is a healthier response as it will be a spur to action.
     
    In response to the Labour Party becoming more democratic, Shearer and Team have behaved like bully-boys.  This is not the behaviour of MPs that I would support.  It’s not the behaviour suited to a democratic Left wing party.  It’s also a sign of weakness, because they can’t unit a team through networking skills and positive inspiration.
     
    This macho posturing is not the behaviour of MPs that I would support.  The Labour Party senior positions were already too male-dominated.  This is why I am more likely continue to support the Greens (though Mana is also a possibility).  They not only have a good gender balance, but don’t go in for a lot of macho posturing.
     
    My current MP is now Twyford – anyone know how likely he is to vote against Shearer in February?

    • Pascal's bookie 5.1
      21 November 2012 at 8:46 am

      Doesn’t matter. Write to him anyway.

    • King Kong 5.2
      21 November 2012 at 9:03 am

      So just to get your outrage in perspective, you aren’t a Labour member and, by your own admission, party vote Green.

      • karol 5.2.1
        21 November 2012 at 9:08 am

        I was in Cunliffe’s electorate the last few elections & voted for him.  I would go back to voting for Labour if it got back to being a democratic left wing party.
         
        I am a Cunliffe supporter.  There’s not a lot of use in voting for a Green electorate MP, but I would do it as a protest, rather than vote Twyford – which had been my intention up til now.
         
        Do you understand MMP, KK?

        • King Kong 5.2.1.1
          21 November 2012 at 9:24 am

          Understand it fine.

          If I was a Labour member I might be a bit concerned at how many non Labour voting lefties were here turning this whole thing into a massive (and for me hillarious) spectacle because they wanted another guy as leader of a party they don’t support.

          I know your going to pull out the “this guy will be leader of a left coalition” however there is a line as a non party member between “strong interest” and “quite frankly none of your fucking business”. For me, I think a lot of people have crossed that.

          • karol 5.2.1.1.1
            21 November 2012 at 9:41 am

            In that case, KK, why are you commenting on these issues at all?  What gives you the authority to speak for the Labour Party?

            • King Kong 5.2.1.1.1.1
              21 November 2012 at 9:50 am

              As of yesterday I am a member. Thought I would show my support for Shearer if there is an election in Feb.

              • BM …
                21 November 2012 at 9:53 am

                I joined too.
                Go Shearer.

                • fatty …
                  21 November 2012 at 10:50 am

                  Good work…your membership will finish at the end of the year, you need to be a member when the vote happens, not the year before…
                  Don’t feel stupid, you righties might take a while before you get used to this fancy new concept called democracy…keep trying.
                  Think of your current (and useless) membership as being a donation to the needy…the very needy.

                  • King Kong …
                    21 November 2012 at 11:06 am

                    Happy to help.

                    Photo shopping teeth or airbrushing your leader out of posters can’t be cheap.

                    • fatty …
                      21 November 2012 at 11:20 am

                      with your donation, hopefully *my leader can get something done about his hair too.

                      *not mine, not even close, I can’t see myself voting for a centrist party like Nat/Lab anytime soon

              • lprent …
                21 November 2012 at 11:48 am

                Good. I am sure that you would be an asset to any branch and even the LEC.
                Could you please tell me what area of the country I should avoid congratulate?

              • thatguynz …
                21 November 2012 at 2:40 pm

                “If I was a Labour member I might…”  @ 5.2.1.1
                 
                or:
                 
                “As of yesterday I am a member.” 
                 
                So which is it KK?

          • Dr Terry 5.2.1.1.2
            21 November 2012 at 9:47 am

            King Cobra. You find all this “hilarious”? You sure must be sick.

            As a New Zealand citizen I shall support any politician that I favour, regardless of what party I happen to belong to (which after Goff and upon arrival of Shearer became the Greens, after more than 50 years loyalty to Labour). Cobra, the time is coming when you will “smile on the other side of your face”.

            • King Kong 5.2.1.1.2.1
              21 November 2012 at 9:58 am

              What’s not funny about watching deluded sychophants screaming as the tide goes out on any chance their guy ever had to “rule” the party.

              I have said this before, If you insist on doing this stuff in public then don’t get cross about the laughter of the onlookers.

      • KJT 5.2.2
        21 November 2012 at 2:04 pm

        Doesn’t the Labour leader intend to become PM of NEW ZEALAND in partnership with the Greens. Or just leader of the Labour party in opposition.?

        Which Mike Smith, and the other apologists for Shearers showing as an insecure and petulant child egged on by even more childish people, are making more and more likely.

        The only way Shearer can now continue as leader past February is if his ABC faction threatens and bribes MP’s, with “the baubles of office”.

        • Colonial Viper 5.2.2.1
          21 November 2012 at 2:18 pm

          Bearing in mind that you can’t actually deliver any baubles of office to your ‘mates’ if you can’t match John Key toe to toe in election year.

    • Blue 5.3
      21 November 2012 at 9:55 am

      Twyford is a Shearer supporter.

  6. Santi 6
    21 November 2012 at 8:37 am

    Shearer will replace Robertson next February. Little to become his Deputy.
    Both, Shearer and Little, will contest the election. Cunliffe is history.

    • Dr Terry 6.1
      21 November 2012 at 9:49 am

      Santi, are you not awake to the fact that ever so many people who are supposedly “history” are in fact the great people?

      • Santi 6.1.1
        21 November 2012 at 11:12 am

        Very much so, but DC is not one of them. Confined to the dustbin of history.
        Shearer to lead until the election.

  7. higherstandard 7
    21 November 2012 at 8:43 am

    Troughers one and all still gorging at the public teat may they all rot in purgatory.

  8. starlight 8
    21 November 2012 at 8:56 am

    Looks like the right wing appologists are active in posting, i wonder why ?
    Do they realise that there is still more to come, the left faction and members could
    still take our party off their right hand control muppets.
    Can they say they enjoyed the bbq now, that their plans are scrambled ?
    It aint over till the members sing 🙂

  9. Craig Glen Eden 9
    21 November 2012 at 9:01 am

    Shearer cant win against Key its that simple, Shearer couldnt even get through his press conference yesterday without stumbling and bumbling. Some Labour MPs better start thinking long and hard because if Shearer stays in some of you are going to be looking for a new job.

    • David H 9.1
      21 November 2012 at 11:48 am

      No Shearer Can’t win with out his grass root support IE you and me, letterbox stuffers and phone calling and the 1001 other things we do. Well when you spit in the face of your grass root support things like getting ELECTED, don’t happen because there is NO support and NO money. Thats the lesson Captain stumblebum and his merry band of wannabe’s is going to learn the hard way, that is if they are not warming a back bench.

  10. Shona 10
    21 November 2012 at 9:03 am

    Disappointing, frustrating, sickening , depressing I could go on with string of adjectives to describe the last few days of infighting by Labour.

    The role played in this by Standard has been exemplary. Lucid, detailed comprehensive right across the spectrum of Labour support.The Machiavellian machinations of the neo liberal cabal of sycophants who presume the right to rule 21st century NZ have been laid bare thanks to The Standard.

    Comparing it to the inaccurate spiel oozing out of Radio NZ has been fascinating. I can’t stomach Garner and Gower ( Tweedledum and Tweedledee). I look forward to any interview Rachel Smalley might do in the next 3 months witht the main players.

    The loser is NZ of course but more importantly the young people of NZ who will continue to be robbed of their birthright by these scum-bags. Disappointed in rOb’s comments his historical analysis of the Labour machine is woefully inadequate he badly needs to read Bruce Jesson for a start, and Mike Smith , well you are quite wrong.

    Shearer will lead Labour to it’s greatest defeat if he survives February. I will sign up for Labour membership to vote for Cunliffe. Here’s hoping the rest of the Standard’s readers do the same before they flee to the Greens or Mana( who will benefit from this insanity).What a nasty, spineless [RL:Deleted] Shearer is I guess it would’ve been like looking in a mirror for Hooton at the legendary BBQ.

  11. Patricia 11
    21 November 2012 at 9:13 am

    I read with some dismay that there is talk about Nanaia Mahuta being “punished” for supposedly backing Cunliffe even though she was not at the meeting. A leader, a good leader looks at uniting a party, not further splitting it.

    Many in the party will wonder, if that happens, if the banishment has more to do with how various MPs voted at the conference, when it came down to making MP’s accountabile to the party. The days of Roger Douglas have gone. The days of King Mallard going against Labour Educational Policy have gone.

    Nanaia has shown already the ability to listen to a wide range of people and communities, to learn rapidly her portfolio, and to link Labour Values to her portfolio. She is empathetic of community needs. She has a good and developing understanding of educational pedagogy.

    Unfortunately her ability in the House is hampered by King Mallard deciding who gets to ask the questions or not!

    Some of us know that just about all of the current Educational directives were started in King Mallards reign as Minister of Education. remember the 8 or 13 million given to Hattie to develop a compiuterised version of AsTTle the concept being our kids from about 6 would sit at a computer console, answer the questions and the computer would spew out its interpretation of the childs needs/knowledge…. National Testing in Electronic Drag!

    Remember the absolute disaster of his bikathons and shutting schools and disenfranchising communities that ended up with helen taking his portfolio of him.

    The King needs to realise that like many Monarchs, the time for him to abdicate and disappear into the happy sunset of retirement have long gone. the lesson he has not rememebred from history, is in the past, those Monarchs who forgot that lesson,eventually not only lost theeir positions, but their heads as well!!!!

    Education is in such disaray at the moment, that it would be absoliutely disasterous to shift Nanaia out of it, and replace her with the Kings young follower, who although academically bright, has a hell of a lot of life skills experience to gain.

    • Dr Terry 11.1
      21 November 2012 at 9:53 am

      I fear that Shearer is so deluded that he will be seeing “enemies” everywhere.

      • Treetop 11.1.1
        21 November 2012 at 10:16 am

        Add paranoid as well: delusions of grandeur persecution e.g. abnormal tendency to suspect and mistrust others.

        Possibly all the time spent at the UN caused a mental imbalance.

        I am really pissed off with the Labour Party today.

      • Hami Shearlie 11.1.2
        21 November 2012 at 12:53 pm

        Well, I’ve heard he’s blaming Cunliffe for all the negative and anti-shearer traffic on the blogs. If Cunliffe were indeed that powerful that he could control all the left-wing blogs AND the membership(who voted for some power) then surely, having attained so much power he should be leader??

      • lurgee 11.1.3
        21 November 2012 at 7:18 pm

        Isn’t that precisely what the demeneted Cunlistas are doing? They’re painting a perfectly decent bloke like Shearer (regardless of your opinion on his media performances) as a puppet of the ‘ABCs’, the neo-conservative elite and a dunce engineered into the leader’s position by the right to strengthen their chances in the next election. But it isn’t the Cunlistas that are paranoid delusionals seeing enemies everywhere, oh no.

        • Treetop 11.1.3.1
          22 November 2012 at 10:35 am

          I am going by Shearer’s rating as leader and the rating of the Labour Party. I do think there is a correlation between how Shearer articulates himself, his knowledge of politics and his rating.

          What I do not get about Shearer is his selectiveness when it comes to reprimanding members of his caucus. Cunliffe is being used as a scapegoat for the party.

          Had Shearer and Cunliffe both backed down and waited until the February leader vote, the Saturday conference would not have become polarised.

        • blue leopard 11.1.3.2
          22 November 2012 at 8:09 pm

          @Lurgee,

          Is “demeneted” a demented way of spelling “demented” or some new word from Nat party spin?

  12. vto 12
    21 November 2012 at 9:17 am

    Were leadership qualities such as being an inspiring leader taken into account in this leadership vote yesterday?

    Because if they were then I despair at the ability of the Labour lot to take it to Key and his band of robbers over the next two years. Shearer still does not come across as an inspirational leader. Apparently there was a doozy speech at the weekend but of course none of us saw that – what we did see was Shearer bumbling again last night on the telly and reading from his notes, and that was uninspiring.

    You seem to forget that a lot rides on this next election. If Key gets in you can kiss goodbye to more of our environment as the bulldozers roll into the Coromandel and deep South Westland, the farmers continue to shit in the rivers (are there any rivers in the Waikato that are swimmable or drinkable?) with the blessing of the Nats, democracy get pulled out from other regions to enable said farmers to thieve the water and other resources. You can kiss goodbyte to any chance of restoring income equalities that used to exist and hence drive divisions into our society. You can say hello to an increasingly divided society.

    You seem to forget that Key and his band of robbers are just that. They are hard core and out to take take take.

    As mentioned yesterday, in the immortal words of ex-All Black captain David Kirk “in this world you only get what you can take”. And that, my dear friends, is the mindset of these thieves – make no mistake about it.

    • Peter 12.1
      21 November 2012 at 9:22 am

      Well, we might just have to hope for an awesome Green administration, running things from the number 2 seat.

      I’m increasingly resigned to that, short of a proper membership revolt occurring between now and February.

  13. tracey 13
    21 November 2012 at 9:19 am

    Meanwhile the country goes to hell in a handbasket… Our pm is continuing his very public goal of being a US sock puppet, the ladders keep being pushed away by those whose success is at least partly to tge presence of the ladder… Thank god for the greens right now.

    I have no idea who should or should not be leader of the labour party. What i believe is their are very few genuine leaders in national and labour. Being appointed leader doesnt make you one.

    As for the talk of bbqs and who was or wasnt there, who did or didnt clap, is the kind of “i move within the inner circle” crap which shows what a small world pollies and their hangers on move in, a world that is so very real them, helps form their world view and bears no resemblance to those living day to day in nz.

    Any number of foljs ought to be feeling ashamed of themselves turning decisions which impact on real lives into a childlike i won and you lost game. But they wont because they and their hangers on have spent so much time in swill, they now think its roses.

    Moral high ground? Irrelevant amongst people who constantly rationalise lies…

    Any numver of from

  14. Enough is Enough 14
    21 November 2012 at 9:24 am

    Why do Mallard, Goff and King get to call the shots here.

    They are all career politiicians that did a stellar job in the Clark governmenet. But their time is up. It was up when they led Labout to a humiliating defeat last year against an incompetent and corrup John Key.

    How can they conitinue to hold so much power?

    They won’t go quietly so its time for the memebership to send a very strong message to please fuck off and retire so that a new leadership with new ideas can carry the workers movement forward.

    • lurgee 14.1
      21 November 2012 at 7:28 pm

      Mostly because there are only about 5 Labour MPs in the house and there isn’t much talent coming through. Which makes this stupid squabble about who gets to be the biggest dog with the most fleas particularly tragic. Shearer and Cunliffe have to be part of the picture for Labour, regardless of which is Supreme Hoohoo. There just isn’t enough talent to go round otherwise. Look back over the last year. The most effective opposition to the disaster prone Key government has come from a FAT GERMAN MILLIONAIRE. With half its talent (for want of a better word) rusticating on the back benches, there isn’t much hope of Labour ousting Mr Dotcom from his role of holding the government to account. They’d rather scheme and stab at each other.

  15. Blue 15
    21 November 2012 at 9:28 am

    Who lost? We did. Every single person who wants to see a Labour-led Government in 2014.

    We are now stuck with an incompetent leader supported by a bunch of pathetic, gutless hypocrites.

    Who won? The media of course. Those little cockroaches are feasting today.

    I hope Shearer knows that this sickening display is not the end. It won’t be the end until the day he is unceremoniously tossed out of his position and banished the way he just did to David Cunliffe.

    The trouble is there are a hell of a lot of others who need to go with him. Spring cleaning time might have to wait a while until the electoral candidate selection process begins.

    Lovely to see those ABC rats up to their old tricks leaking like sieves about what went on in a ‘private’ caucus meeting that supposedly only David Shearer is allowed to comment about.

    So, David, did you authorise them to do that or are they flouting your authority too? Just like they have done all year? Did you hear them tell Duncan Garner that your neck could be on the chopping block if your performance doesn’t improve? Oh, that’s right. You don’t have a single fucking clue what you’re doing in any case.

  16. mike 16
    21 November 2012 at 9:37 am

    Jesus! With friends like you lot, who needs enemies?

    • fatty 16.1
      21 November 2012 at 11:42 am

      or maybe friend’s of Shearer are our enemies? e.g. Hooten

      • fisiani 16.1.1
        21 November 2012 at 6:29 pm

        Support and Vote Labour = Get Shearer
        Vote National = Get rid of Shearer

        • fatty 16.1.1.1
          21 November 2012 at 8:09 pm

          I think you misunderstand most of the anti-shearer sentiment. Speaking for myself, its not that I want him gone cause I hate him, I just can’t see him beating Key at the next election. I’d be happy if Shearer was made deputy, or whatever. I think he’d make a good social development minister.
          Just get a leader that doesn’t sound like he just rolled out of bed with a hangover…and one that can form a sentence.

        • blue leopard 16.1.1.2
          21 November 2012 at 8:13 pm

          lol Good on you, Fisiani, for trying
          It was worth a go.

  17. tracey 17
    21 November 2012 at 9:41 am

    “They are focused on themselves and we are focussed on the country. We are more stable, my caucus are unified behind me, we have solid coalition partners… they can’t even organise a conference.”

    The prime minister said he wouldn’t have demoted Cunliffe, saying: “Sometimes it’s better to keep your enemies closer.”

    He speaks from experience methinks BUT the satisfied self interest is being satisfied so they are happy for him to be leader. This is why labour is a laughing stock, because the man who cant lie steaight in bed gets to look like he gives a sjit about the country.

    For shearer to have spoken so well on sunday, and so poorly before and after doesnt bode well. A politician doesnt have to speakly clearly to succeed as key has shown us but they have to master confidence. Key is hufely confidant because lie after lie hasnt hurt him.

    • karol 17.1
      21 November 2012 at 9:46 am

      Indeed.  And,as always, Gordon Campbell says it well.

      Well, when people feel the need to stamp their authority on something, it usually means they don’t bring natural authority to the table, and have to over-compensate. Feeling the need to stamp your authority is usually a sign of weakness, not strength.
       
      Not only are the attacks on Cunliffe looking disproportionate to his alleged sins, but demonising him will mean that the caucus is willing to throw overboard one of its few capable public performers and political assets. Yep, let’s keep Trevor Mallard but do our level best to end Cunliffe’s career, once and for all. That makes sense. Let’s crack down on Cunliffe but continue to let Shane Jones publicly go after our coalition allies if they dare to criticise one of his corporate donors. That’s the right thing to do.

      What we have seen within Labour in the last few days looks like a witch hunt. This kind of Stalinist stuff for instance, belongs back in the mid 1930s:

  18. aerobubble 18
    21 November 2012 at 9:43 am

    Bored. Shearer Shearer Shearer. Now we are over the PR blitz does anyone not know who is leading the Labour Party. In the months and years to come will we really look back at this as a crisis, or as affirmation that Shearer survived a leadership contest. Exactly how does finding the most contestable challenger and having a stoush as a bad thing? It did not do Clark any harm.

    Why has Shearer hit the right Key yet? Well first off we’re way out from the next election, why blow the gunpowder too soon, second, why be offensive to National voters since Labour still has the fear factor to play, that they will need the Greens, and when the inevitable reality dawns on many National voters (not core supporters but also not keen on the Greens) solidly put Labour into clear sky of playing NZF and Greens off against each other.

    So leadership challenges all good, Shearer hitting the right Key yet, all good, Shearer keeping National swingers on side, all good. Well that’s if you weren’t a Green supporter like me.
    So please, I’m so bored by all the threads being about this issue, yeah, yeah, everyone now
    knows who the labour leader is.

    • Dr Terry 18.1
      21 November 2012 at 10:03 am

      aerobubble. Hard to make much sense of this, but happy to know you are with Greens. If, indeed, you are so very bored by it all, how come you got up the energy to bother writing in?

      • aerobubble 18.1.1
        22 November 2012 at 2:51 pm

        Its like a guy who has this long conversation on the telephone, in the library, taking in part about integrity, you just can’t get away from the chatter, and you need to tell someone its boring how hypocritical they are. This is a political forum, and while the details are boring for this Green voter, it may boost the green vote if Shearer is dropped.

  19. Treetop 19
    21 November 2012 at 9:47 am

    I predict the proverbial son (Cunliffe) will return in late 2013.

    1. Shearer will be re elected as leader in February 2013 as the Labour caucus know they have to show unity.

    2. By late 2013 Shearer and Labour will have such poor ratings that Shearer will be dumped.

    3. The new guard is going to sort out the old guard in 2013 (who support Shearer) as the new guard are going to be HUNGRY to win the election in 2014.

    I am now going to look up how Shearer twice stood for Labour prior to be elected in June 2009

    Shearer is second best and second best is not going to win the election in 2014. (For once the right will agree with me).

    To Cunliffe I say, do not be impatient or dispondent, you know what needs fixing and you will fix it, by sitting back you will observe and you will come back stronger than ever.

    • Hami Shearlie 19.1
      21 November 2012 at 1:03 pm

      Agreed. I loved Shearer talking about some people putting their personal ambition ahead of the party. Would this be the same Shearer who admitted to Chris Trotter that in the debates round the country, he only won one, Cunliffe won many. Only a self-interested person would then stay in the race, knowing the members didn’t want him. He is an absolute hypocrite! And he’s sure living on past laurels. I can’t hear about his tossing mango skins any more. That’s the thing in politics – past laurels just won’t cut the mustard. His “compelling backstory” that nobody is actually interested in, is not helping anyone in NZ now! What a very very small person he has turned out to be. I thought he was an awful choice at the beginning and many who supported him are now seeing what a bad idea it was – Chris Trotter for one!

  20. tracey 20
    21 November 2012 at 9:47 am

    All of this has made key more smug and more confidant… That makes him vulnerable. For those who have the means

  21. tracey 21
    21 November 2012 at 9:51 am

    Well said gordon campbell. Great examples.

  22. tracey 22
    21 November 2012 at 10:05 am

    Will those from the right join the lp to get a vote in february?

  23. Pete 23
    21 November 2012 at 11:07 am

    I posted the fable of the hare and the tortoise in last night’s lengthy thread, but I figure this one is more appropriate for the current situation. I like to think of the frog as the Party and the scorpion as caucus.

    The Scorpion and the Frog

    A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”

    The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”

    Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”

    • fatty 23.1
      21 November 2012 at 11:50 am

      The ABC club is the scorpion, and Cunliffe is the frog. If only the ABC’s could control their nature. Once a Mallard, always a Mallard.

  24. Mary 24
    21 November 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Spot on analysis, but if Cunliffe’s going to receive genuine support from the party he needs to lose that smarmy arrogance that’s likely to be the real reason for the ABC club and the resultant support for Shearer, that is, regardless of how thin on the ground a party might be somebody’s got to be leader. It would easily have been Cunliffe if he could show grace and statesmanship. Instead he communicates in hideous and annoying childish riddles, like the way he repeated “I’m not at liberty to comment, I’m not at liberty to comment” on national television which just sends a message of total disrespect towards the public. I can imagine what he’s like with his caucus colleagues. You can be the brightest and most articulate person in a group but if the group doesn’t like you then you’re rendered useless. Lose the arrogance, David, show respect for your colleagues – all of your colleagues, and respect for the public and you might find things will start going your way.

    • Hami Shearlie 24.1
      21 November 2012 at 1:09 pm

      Cunliffe has shown grace and statesmanship!! Ever hear of him sneaking off with stories attacking colleagues anonymously to the media like Mallard, Goff and King?? He hasn’t talked about the meeting yesterday to the media, but Shearer’s allies have! Shearer said only HE would be saying anything, yet his allies sneak off to the media anonymously as usual, and he does nothing!! Shearer is a tired old has-been, like a many times reheated sausage roll!

      • Mary 24.1.1
        21 November 2012 at 1:19 pm

        I’m not comparing him to Mallard et al – I’m saying that he comes across as an up himself smart arse when he just doesn’t have to. He’s bright enough and sharp enough to be a great leader but he pisses people off with the small stuff. He needs to show respect in the way he relates to people. Did you see him on TV with all that “I’m not at liberty to say” shite? It’s not what he said but how he said it. He came across as quite unlikeable. This is in contrast to Shearer, who comes across as a lovely chap, but who’s also politically naive, ignorant on economic issues and quite frankly not up to the job. Being likable isn’t by itself enough to be a good leader, but Cunliffe needs to realise that it’s also necessary.

        • blue leopard 24.1.1.1
          21 November 2012 at 1:26 pm

          I had an entirely different response to the “I’m not at liberty to say” comments.

          He came across to me as someone who was handling a very difficult situation with a great deal of dignity.

          Interesting how different our responses can be!

        • David H 24.1.1.2
          21 November 2012 at 6:46 pm

          Well maybe the ‘smartarse’ is needed so that he can take the argument to John Key and not be the tired old but of National’s jokes, jokes that are just going to get worse because the Nats are going to hold up a mirror to shearer, and his leadership, and what he has done re the weekend and going against the membership and the new rules. and they are going to slowly roast him over an open fire, if they don’t then Shonky’s not the bald opportunist we all know and hate. And it’s what I WOULD do!

    • starlight 24.2
      21 November 2012 at 4:10 pm

      Cunliffe was ‘ordered not to talk to the media’ his ‘not at liberty to say’ was obeying shearers
      orders,from what i have seen of Cunliffe he has never been smarmy,smug or arrogant.

      • Mary 24.2.1
        21 November 2012 at 6:20 pm

        Call it something else, then. I like the guy and think he’s got the potential to do a far better job than Shearer and in fact the potential to be a great leader and PM, but if I were his PR adviser I’d get him to change his style of delivery to one which is more respectful of his audience, whether that’s his colleagues or the media or the public generally. Until he does that I don’t think he can do it.

  25. blue leopard 25
    21 November 2012 at 12:50 pm

    I am absolutely devastated that the caucus of Labour have chosen to create and play this drama out the way they have. It is a serious case of just when you thought things couldn’t get any worse

    This Government is utterly atrocious with respect to holding the best interests of NZers at heart

    …. and now the main opposition part .. um .. I’ll correct that to the largest opposition party. (NZF & Greens are doing supremely better at opposition than the largest party in opposition)…

    …now it appears that the largest opposition party have been taken over by the same lack of regard for NZers.

    If they don’t connect with NZers and sort out this problem with leadership by February, I’m sure that many people such as myself will view them as making all the wrong choices and be unwilling to vote for them, despite some good policies coming out, because they are making it clear that they are unable to show a unified aim of winning the election and the means to that end toward this aim is choosing the most skilled people capable of providing the most impact for the job.

    I predict if this trend continues Labour will be relegated to a party as minor as Act. This will be the best outcome, because otherwise we will end up with another large party that is also too compromised by big money interests and resultantly mediocre to do anything of genuine benefit for the majority of NZers.

    Utterly devastating.

  26. bomber 26
    21 November 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Here are my list of winners and losers

    Labour Party meltdown – winners, losers & predictions – http://tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/labour-party-meltdown-winners-losers.html

    • blue leopard 26.1
      21 November 2012 at 1:19 pm

      I could list them quicker

      Winners: big money interests (gain a pliable political party leader to manipulate to their ends.)

      Losers: Everyone and everything (environment) other than big money interests.

  27. Andrew 27
    21 November 2012 at 1:28 pm

    This blog and most of the comments below sum up while I won’t be voting Labour in either it’s Judean People’s front, or People Front of Judea incarnations.

    Oh, and despite your protestations I think you’ll find most people find DC to just be a very naught boy, not the messiah.

    Maybe Labour would like to let the rest of know when they’d like to have conversation with the rest of us, rather than just bitching behind each other’s backs?

  28. mike e 28
    21 November 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Bomber good observations this could be good for shearer if he can use the spotlight to focus on labours initiatives and not on the past.
    He has to improve how he handles the media Cunliffe has a good way with media slow measured creating suspense, authority and no panic mode !
    Shearer is always on the back foot in interviews all he has to do is slow down say less . which is more in political terms . Saying less will make it easier to manage media .
    He is very much like Bill Rowling Powerful in person but a mess in the media Shearer has to relax and just be himself no panic and stay focused. If the media demand more do what Key does thats all I’m prepared to discuss today i’ve got a busy schedule.
    Or thats all over now I’m busy working on our detail of our policy to build 10,000 houses a year as its going to take alot of work to sort out the detail to make it work!

  29. Sophie 29
    21 November 2012 at 3:28 pm

    You guys all need to chill out.

    I attended the conference and saw the drama unfold around the leadership. I saw the fierce debate around the 60/40 caucus trigger. I saw that debate as a thinly veiled attempt to address a leadership issue that less than 40% of the caucus had.

    I saw the majority of the conference attendees proud of how everyone handled themselves in a tough debate. That’s what democracy is all about. It’s just disappointing seeing so called political commentators say that we are divided and infighting, when actually we had a mature, passionate debate about our constitution, we voted and we moved on.

    If anything we should be angry at those who drew the attention away from the great changes the party was making and the great policy we agreed to move forward with.

    It’s also rich for people to say that Shearer is neoliberal, give me a break. Take a look at this: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10691142

    • Craig Glen Eden 29.1
      21 November 2012 at 4:07 pm

      So how does a post about a past Labour policy fronted by Cunliffe prove Shearers not a neoliberal. sshh.

    • blue leopard 29.2
      21 November 2012 at 5:31 pm

      @ Sophie,

      You say:
      “If anything we should be angry at those who drew the attention away from the great changes the party was making and the great policy we agreed to move forward with.”

      I would think this is what a lot of people are angry about. It can be quite certain that the politician/s talking to the media and creating the slant in the coverage is not Mr Cunliffe: I do not think that Mr Cunliffe was the person who instigated the whole story by approaching the media causing the snipey article to be written about what a dreadful person Mr Cunliffe is a few months away. This approaching of the media should have been dealt with because it is a very poor look. Such behaviour has been left to go unchecked and the consequence is that it is far more likely that the slant the media took to the conference was also instigated from inside the party by the same politician/s. i.e. Not Mr Cunliffe.

  30. seeker 30
    21 November 2012 at 8:24 pm

    @ Shona @ 9.03 am

    I agree with your comment Shona. I wonder where to turn to for justice now as I have always equated social justice and fairness (on the whole that is) with Labour and is why I have always voted for them, especially through the Thatcher years when she set about turning the ‘justice clock’ back aeons.However, after Shearer’s disgraceful self gratifying unjust actions yesterday, and silly, disloyal to his colleagues Chris Hipkins and even, heaven help us, Shane Jones’ s hypocritically ‘pious’ huhu grub comment I realised that because Nactional and Labour now appear to be coming from the same untrustworthy, unjust and unprincipled camps I would have to turn to the Greens .

    At least, in my eyes, they still have integrity and have not earned my distrust and, I am afraid to say it, contempt. I needed some one I could trust when I made a plea for some one in authority to look very closely at the relationship between the press and politicians. I needed this after witnessing the maligning of Winston Peters who I had no interest in until I saw TV reporters saying he did something which he certainly had not as I was watching the news clip they were referring to, and I could do so over and over again because I had recorded it.Still he didn’t do what they said he had. Since that moment I recorded everything the TV and press said about him and observed when they spun the truth either obviously, as with the news clip or cleverly by subtly changing words to make him appear guilty of something. Hide and Key followed by Simon Power eventually worked closely with Espiner and Soper on their ‘stories’and then people like Bill Ruskin joined in followed by Bob Jones ( who mumbled and joked) and then good old Mr. Glenn.

    I recorded it all because I hate untruth and injustice -and I wanted to prove it to remove it. In fact untruths make me almost physically sick especially when I come across them in large dollops like Peters and, unbelievably at the Labour Conference last weekend.

    I feel that perhaps Mr. Espiner has passed this smear ‘game plan’ on to Garner and eventually Gower and small Sabin have joined in. I watched many younger journalists like Jessica Much and Heather Du Plessis join in with the clobbering of Winston and eventually most of TV1,except Fran Mold. Now we have the more clumsy Gower and Garner with Chris Hipkins, Shane Jones, bit of David Parker and finally David Shearer doing the same thing to David Cunliffe. Observers of smear game plans can spot the potential for ‘untruth build up’ and press the ‘record button’ on their machines. Eventually when the subtle word changing has finished, clips have been suitably edited and TV and Press journalists who are in on the engineering can come out with similar phrase for reinforcement as the fabrication is formed into solid gold fact like “challenged leadership” “naked ambition” or “rogue” or “disloyal” . Whenever these words are now uttered or printed the victim is immediately found guilty of whatever because of the clever build up towards fiction now being presented as FACT.

    And without question, like wally Shearer, the lie is believed, becomes fact, is acted upon and Kiwis follow each other down a path based on falsity and and specially paved by ‘interested’ parties. We are now doing what ‘they’, whoever they are , want. There comes apoint I noticed from my observations and recordings when those who have been trying to say ‘no this isn’t true’, finally become overwhelmed, possibly because they have missed out on part of the spun tale or are overworked or are becoming almost hypnotised, into believing what they are now being told is the truth.

    Clunk- brain shuts down on last peice of bullsh…given as truth, overload, must be true ,told enough times and so on…. pass into history as fact.All need to move on to other things in life. Job of spinners, and manipulaters off truth, done. Everyone off on political and media engineered path (engineered for some self gratifying reason) to who knows or cares where.

    Sorry this was so long but it shows why I rang the GreenParty . I rang to ask that when they came into Government (now that we no longer have a Labour Party, well a Labour party of principle that is and certainly one that it worth voting for in the interests of justice, fairness, integrity and trust.) that they might bring about a law that looks carefully at the relationship of politicians and the media, especially when someone is maligned and it looks like the maligning could have been manufactured.
    We really need a watchdog for this in the interest of New Zealand’s future and mental and spiritual well being otherwise who knows who could manipulate us. And, for the record, I think Shearer may have been manipulated as well as the rest of us. However, if he is a leader of any worth he should have been wiser and more discerning and loyal to those he is meant to lead.

    • pete 30.1
      21 November 2012 at 11:26 pm

      You’re over-thinking it. It’s cock-up over conspiracy.

    • blue leopard 30.2
      22 November 2012 at 9:00 am

      @Seeker

      Don’t you just love that, you share a heck of a lot of valuable information based on what sounds like months of investigation and someone comes along and says “you’re over-thinking”

      This subject has concerned me greatly too and I think the suggestion you have re a media watch-dog is a good idea.

      I believe what you have just done, though, describing the tricks that are used on us, is the best way to address this problem; it is the strongest antidote to the spin and hypnotic messages. When we are made aware of the tricks, they lose power over us. I enjoy reading The Standard for just this type of elucidation.

      Thanks for sharing your observation, I find them very enlightening.

      • seeker 30.2.1
        24 November 2012 at 5:36 pm

        Thanks Blue Leopard. So glad you didn’t ‘underthink’ my comment like pete, and recognised its importance.You have made my ‘investigation’ and observations really worthwhile. In lieu of a watchdog, I will continue myself until a law comes into force. Thanks for your support for a media watchdog, really encouraging!
        By the way Media 3 today (24-11-12 had a very good section on how information can be manipulated. Thought you might be interested. It also includes info. on a film called ‘Propaganda’ which, although completely fabricated, has ruined a Korean man’s life. No matter what proof is given, people will now only believe the fabrication, rather than reality!!! Very, very disturbing!?
        http://www.tv3.co.nz/Media-3/tabid/3182/articleID/78873/Default.aspx

  31. pete 31
    21 November 2012 at 11:22 pm

    Shearer/Cunliffe/Mr X – it doesn’t matter.

    Labour are an incoherent mess. The public smells it, and a figurehead ‘aint going to change it.
    Deep down, you know it is true.

    Key will cruise to another three years.

  32. Marcus50 32
    22 November 2012 at 12:40 pm

    labour have virtually no chance at the next election unless National self destruct and even though the Nats have offered up numerous free hits this year the list comments on this blog show why labour has little chance.

    To mount a serious challenge to National Labour have to have a unified voice and neither Shearer nor Cunliffe are capable of delivering that. The divide between the factions in the party is simply too deep seated and bitter to provide the sort of platform that is needed.

    The leadership choice being taken way from Caucus is great in theory for labour but will be damaging in practice. The dirty laundry is now going to be aired on a regular basis in public and whilst the party faithful will relish the opportunity to become involved and thump their chests as that it is a win for democracy it will simply turn off the very voters who ultimately decide elections.

    As much as the left extreme of the labour party and the right extreme of the Nats refuse to admit it it is the centre of the political spectrum that chooses which party will govern, something that Key understands all too well and Brash didn’t have a clue about. Helen Clarke understood it well also and managed to lead the Labour party with some degree of balance between the left and centrists in her front bench and cabinet.

    Still as long as the bitter infighting, backstabbing and vitriol continues from within the Labour ranks national will continue to govern by default. Pete @ 11.22pm has set it out very succinctly.

    • Colonial Viper 32.1
      25 November 2012 at 2:03 pm

      Your thesis is rubbish. Pandering to the disloyal fairly comfortably off middle class voter has been a disaster for Labour and continues to be a disaster for Labour.

      And a disaster for the working classes and underclasses who effectively have no main political party backing them.

      Give us a plan to get the 800,000 non vote out, and make sure Labour give them something to vote for this time in 2014.

  33. Hannah 33
    25 November 2012 at 1:37 pm

    Mallard is to Shearer as McCully was to Brash. One is/was the puppet and one the master. Can you guess which?

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