2014 man of the Year

Written By: - Date published: 12:53 pm, December 22nd, 2014 - 59 comments
Categories: uncategorized - Tags:

The serious aspect of New Zealand life I am specifically referring to is the appalling over representation of males in the perpetration of sexual and domestic violence. When reading this please keep in mind that the Government of the day has the most power to implement the biggest  change and there are MANY charities and other NFP organisations trying to do that and with quite some success, both in assisting victims and perpetrators and in education. The simplest thing would be to roll out existing, and proven effective programmes in schools for the first term next year. It is not sex education (that is a red herring) it is RESPECT education.  Some of this is being done through the Health Curriculum, but not enough. Our group reluctance to go hard at this issue from every angle speaks to our acceptance of it, or denial of its breadth. It is costing lives, childhoods, and money (lots of it) to keep doing the minimum.

Now, because biggest change always starts at the top, let’s get on with “Man” of the Year 2014

First nominee


Prime Minister of New Zealand

Of the allegations of rape against a group of young men, who had been bragging about their conquests on facebook, John Key said

” “extremely disturbing and disgusting behaviour”.

“These young guys should just grow up,” .

“I guess, as a parent, I find the issue very disturbing and abhorrent really.

“I mean, you are talking about youngsters who are at a very delicate age.”

Key defended the work of police.

“It is very difficult to progress this issue, if someone isn’t prepared to make a formal complaint.

“And it’s a very challenging situation for a young woman to put herself in that position.”

The words read ok, although seem to cover a lot of bases. So what actions followed?

Any changes to reflect the Prime Minister’s abhorrence? A Law Commission Report into aspects of sexual violence and law changes was made available to the PM and Cabinet in 2012. New Justice Minister, Amy Adams, has asked (25 November 2014) that the Law Commission “revisit” it’s work on alternative pre-trial and trial processes to identify options for improving complainants’ experience in court. So far nothing to help young boys grow up into men who don’t brag about sex with under age and drunk girls. Still focused on ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. But curiously it suggests they agreed with David Cunliffe (see below).

Heather Henare of Womens Refuge said this

She said National cut Refuge’s baseline funding by $700,000 in 2011 and had never restored it, although “one-off” grants for training and other extras had raised the movement’s total funding from $6.2 million in 2008 to $9.2 million today.

“That might include a position in Timbuktu to write a children’s programme, it’s not an effective use of money,” she said.

On the Malaysian Diplomat accused of attempted rape of a New Zealand woman Mr Key initially offered an apology to the alleged victim,

“I don’t know her name. Obviously it’s a matter of privacy, but I think there’s been plenty of public comments that would echo what I’ve just said,” he said.

Asked whether he would apologise if he did know her name, Mr Key said: “Yes, in so much that I believe that she shouldn’t have had to go through what she went through.”

then later said that

He said he did not make apologies unless there’s a serious reason to

Later, when caught on the hop about the inexplicable escape of murderer and paedophile, Phillip Smith, he joked

I’ll just let her know that you know, there’s someone that could be out there from New Zealand she might not want to invite around for lunch

He offered an apology of sorts, so that must have qualified as a “serious reason to”. It rather makes me wonder what Farrar’s polling revealled about fellow kiwis attitudes?
Last week during his busy time as PM, Key stopped at loads of FM radio stations and proudly wore a t-shirt proclaiming that he is not sorry to be a man.
John Key dickhead

Second Nominee


Former leader of the Labour Party

made a widely and longly (over weeks) mis-reported and referred to statement which was then systematically and deliberately taken out of context. What he actually said was

Can I begin by saying I’m sorry – I don’t often say it – I’m sorry for being a man, right now. Because family and sexual violence is perpetrated overwhelmingly by men against women and children,

So the first message to the men out there is: wake up, stand up and man up and stop this bullshit!

Womens Refuge run 24 hour a day 7 day a week centres and call answering service to female victims of sexual and domestic violence. They answer phones, arrange housing and care, provide counseling and other services. The Government of New Zealand, in return for this mammoth and soul destroying service offer each centre $100,000 per year. In that speech he pledged a further $15m, a year for Womens Refuge work

The government and media cynically allowed the focus to be on ridiculing Cunliffe and avoiding discussion about the appalling failure to protect women and children from the overwhelmingly male perpetrated sexual and domestic violence in New Zealand.

The announcement by Amy Adams to let the law Commission further its work was Labour party election policy. Judith Collins had earlier halted the work and rubbished Labour’s plans

David Cunliffe’s party also promised

Labour said it would consider:

• Changes cross-examination rules to ensure that victims of sexual cases were not “put on trial”.
• Allowing complainants in sexual offence cases to adopt alternative trial processes such as restorative justice.
• Specialist courts to hear sexual violence cases.
Changing the definition of consent in cases of sexual violation so that it doesn’t impose “an unfair burden” on victims.

Mrs Collins and Social Development Minister Paula Bennett dismissed Labour’s policy as “just smoke and mirrors”. (note A Little got his words wrong on this policy and unwittingly created a diversion from the crucial issue)

So, in this context what is a man? If it is just having a set of physiological features differentiating one from a woman, then it is hard to argue with John key’s pride.

BUT, if we return to the context within which all this began…

What is a “man” in 2014?

Perhaps, given some of the attitudes apparent in NZ today we should pop back a century for one take on it.

If (published 1910)

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build’em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!



59 comments on “2014 man of the Year”

  1. Zorr 1


    I agree with the post completely.

    Just want clarification though because I’m not sure if you put the Rudyard Kipling poem in there as an example of how a man should be or as a representation of misguided thinking on what a man should aim for.

    I have always hated the image of man as an Atlas who bears the weight of the world with nary a care.

  2. A VOTER 2

    It would be good if they addressed the cause of the behavior mainly that it is a reflection of the leadership of this country’s lack of depth and experience in dealing with growth of sexual crime in NZ
    So often the rhetoric of males sounds their complete lack of understanding of how women see ,relate and deal with sex crime perpetrated on them
    And quite frankly if you havent experienced situations in life where these events have occured you dont know jack shit about it
    And by the sounds of Key and Cunliffe they should stop trying to lead when what they have is an opinion which they are trying to make statesman capital out of
    It is a commercial social perversion that allows young men to buy into this sick disrespectful behavior
    If they in their minds had any idea of consequences of their actions to their victims they would do well to consider the fact that at one time they could be executed for what they do
    Its about subjugating thru fear something powerful people do but these young people because of the law , manipulate society’s sympathy
    Their punishment should fear based to show them that their crime is premeditated and the purveyors of the ideology should also be punished in a detention sentence as well
    The govt should also be held to account for giving license to the industries to allow this crap to be sold and the education system and the police would do well to inform these adolescent persons of the seriousness of the crimes if they ever think to choose to commit such , before they go down that track
    The govt does have a responsibility and our PM would do well to consider its apology to Miss Billingsley for the actions of one such person in its control who is being charged with a sex crime as a starter in actuality and not just an have an opinion for a ministerial position

    • Tracey 2.1

      A Voter, I understand the sentiments you are expressing. For my part, I want less money and focus poured at theguilty(once convicted) and more at prevention.

      When I was a girl my male peers werent developing their notions of appropriate behaviour toward girls from online porn etc BUT they were stashing “dirty” mags under their mattresses.

      There are many GREAT programmes aimed at beginning school kids and high school. Respect in your dealings with other people can start pre school.

      I remember when drinking and driving was first really addressed it was kids showing up their parents. The same needs to happen here.

      As long asKey kowtows, as he did to colin craig, on health and relationship education in schools, the misguided notion that it is about teaching kids about sex will prevail.

      • aerobubble 2.1.1

        oh please. capitalism the nasty end demands profits at every turn. free time for parents goes the same way as extra money into the markets. so kids, who are hard wired to be intringed by sex, fear peer pressure, etc, dont get educated by their parents but the market. blame yourselves you wanted you house price to rise, you want-ed to out do the neighbors, you want some other group to get the whip cracked on them, its never about you. people porn was not everywhere over the million years of our existance, take oppressive right and left wing economy first parties off us and give citizens the ability to breath again. too often the people declaring their hate for the other are the reinforces of the status quo.

  3. seeker 3

    Excellent post Tracey. So much that needed to be said, thankyou.

    When I first saw key wearing that fatuous t shirt I immediately thought , “Well you should be sorry, really sorry, that you are the type of man you are………apparently a
    dishonourable, con man”.

    In fact I am sorry, really sorry , that such a ‘man’ leads our country.

    • batweka 3.1


      great post tracey.

    • Colonial Rawshark 3.2

      The only reason that John Key was wearing that shirt around everywhere would have been because National’s internal polling and focus groups told him that it was, and remains, a popular message to Kiwis by a substantial margin.

      Lefties, read it and get what that means.

  4. Tracey 4

    Programmes like the one referred to in this article (below) which costs $400k each year, has trained 77,000 12 year old girls and led to reporting of abuse and increased self confidence.


  5. NZJester 5

    I don’t know if he can be man of the year.
    Someone in a previous post I read a while back put in a very good argument that John is a cold blooded Lizard creature in disguise.
    Is a cold blooded Lizard creature eligible for that?

  6. Tracey 6

    April 2011

    ” .Rotorua agency Family Focus, which runs programmes for men, women and children, said the assessment could help to meet a desperate need for more services in its area.

    “Our statistics have doubled,” said manager Stacey Ford. “We had 700 people through our agency from July 1 to December 31 last year. We normally do only 700 in a year.

    “Our staff are absolutely exhausted and there is a never-ending stream through the door. We can’t turn people away so we are just having to work very quickly with them,” Stacey Ford said.

    Two other Rotorua agencies that provided counselling for men – the Rotorua Violence Prevention Service and Challenge Violence Trust – have closed in recent years, and Barnardos closed its local service for children and their families last year… “”


  7. rhinocrates 7

    “If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs …”

    Perhaps you should land your helicopter somewhere less crowded.


    Totally irrelevant, but what the Hell…

    As for Key… well, the backlash is at least heartening and I think that the wider public are starting to see him more and more not as one of the lads, but a smartarsed prick. Andrew Little’s “Cut the crap” seems to have resonated with its simplicity and keeping with Kiwi bluntness, so maybe the tide will turn on him not with the electorate deciding that he’s an evil capitalist, but smacking its collective forehead and saying “Christ, he’s like my Dad telling jokes at the wedding after he’s had too many.”

  8. Coffee Connoisseur 8

    hmmm very Interesting read

    “Can I begin by saying I’m sorry – I don’t often say it – I’m sorry for being a man, right now. Because family and sexual violence is perpetrated overwhelmingly by men against women and children,

    So the first message to the men out there is: wake up, stand up and man up and stop this bullshit!’”

    Unfortunately this is not an easy problem to solve as Real Kiwi blokes don’t sit around and talk about their feelings and you certainly can’t ask another man ‘hey bro do you abuse your wife’.
    I do think that in order to solve it it needs more attention. Much more attention first at a societal level and then at the individual family level where it occurs.

    Men who abuse their wives, in many cases won’t have the level of respect for woman that is needed to solve the problem. So hearing this message coming from woman isn’t going to hit home.
    The message needs to come from other men in society now and even more so once the issue is getting more air time.

    Cunliffe shouldn’t have said I’m sorry for being a man in any context as respect starts with ones self.
    What Cunliffe perhaps should have said is ‘I’m proud to be a man who doesn’t beat or abuse women’.
    This should probably be a Campaign to help raise money for womans refuge.
    T-shirts for Men with that message on it.
    To bring it more down to a family level you could have ‘I’m proud to be a Dad who doesn’t beat women.’ I’m proud to be a loving husband who doesn’t beat my wife.’

    The other thing that is needed is targeted help with increased resources for men who do beat their wives and who want to stop. Without this all the campaigns in the world will fail. Almost like AA where there is a budy or a support person they can call if they need to on top of other tools they’ll be given for dealing with the situation where they might have otherwise used their fists.

    • Tracey 8.1

      for targetted programnes for men

      2014 man of the Year

      the tools are all there to deal with this from every angle. What is lacking is the political will to fund them

      • batweka 8.1.1

        That’s how I understand it. People have been doing this work well for a long time, and they’ve done it in the face of poort funding or having their funding pulled out from under them. It’s all about the politics (FJK).

    • batweka 8.2

      The message needs to come from other men in society now and even more so once the issue is getting more air time.

      Spot on.

      Cunliffe shouldn’t have said I’m sorry for being a man in any context as respect starts with ones self.
      What Cunliffe perhaps should have said is ‘I’m proud to be a man who doesn’t beat or abuse women’.

      That’s a good point, although can we add in the bit about it’s not enough to not be an abuser, men also need to hold other men accountable (and as you say, support them when they want to change)?

      ‘I’m proud to be a man who doesn’t beat or abuse women, and I don’t tolerate or support men who do’ or something like that.

      DC got this bit right, “So the first message to the men out there is: wake up, stand up and man up and stop this bullshit!”

      Manning up also means men need to take responsibility for male violence, not just project out there that it’s other men that do it.

      The good news is that there are so many more men already willing to do this than there used to be. I think this is true even in conservative, blokey communities.

  9. vto 9

    Was there something in there that suggested that because I am a man I share more of the societal burden for this problem than any fellow citizen solely because of my manness? It sounds like it. Tell me it isn’t so.

    • RedLogix 9.1

      What’s come to mind by way of a response to your comment vto is this. It’s really worth trying to get hold of a small book written by Joan Metge who is a New Zealand social anthropologist, educator, lecturer and writer called In and Out of Touch: Whakamaa in Cross Cultural Context.

      It may be quite hard to get hold of nowadays, but I still have a copy somwhere in a box back home. But here is a small review I could find online:

      This book, I think, is timely in that it is available when relations
      between Miiori and Piikeha are in a state of flux and are a matter of concern
      to some. It gives deep insight into a form of Miiori behavior many
      Piikeha define as arrogance, sullenness, uncooperativeness, aggressiveness,
      and many other epithets, Such definitions, however, are formed
      without knowing, caring, or appreciating the Miiori viewpoint. Much
      of the lack of understanding between Miiori and Piikeha can be attributed
      to the Piikehaa because of “their cool assumption that the Piikeha
      way of doing something is the only, the human, way” (p. 140).
      Whakama (whakamaa) is a feeling common to all people but is
      treated differently by different cultures. The word means “embarrassed,
      shy, ashamed, coy, humiliating,” and is well illustrated by the
      many case histories Metge uses to support her arguments.
      The exact definition is dependent upon the generation of the person
      and the degree to which that person grew up in a Miiori society that was
      or is Miiori speaking and behaved or behaves in a Miiori way. The contention
      that urbanized Miiori youth are unfamiliar with the concept is
      debatable–even if unable to articulate the feeling they certainly experience
      it, although their reactions to it differ from their rural counterparts.


      Whakamaa is word without a simple one to one correspondence into English or indeed our way of thinking. But the one aspect I can identify with is where it maps onto a sense of collective shame for the behaviour of one or some members of a group I belong to.

      In a Western sense men who assault women and children are solely liable and accountable for their actions. Yet to me that was always a narrow view; that while I was not responsible, nor personally accountable for what they had done – because I identified with their group I could nonetheless feel a sense of shame and embarrassment because of it. And this was my motivation to stand up and ensure I took what opportunities available to me to collectively discourage and prevent it.

      • Tracey 9.1.1

        Thanks for this contribution RedLogix.

        You and Joan have articulated something I havent been able.

        I dont know if John Key has sexually or domestically abused anyone. Let us assume he hasnt for arguments sake.

        I am not asking to behave as though he has personally done so BUT I am saying that as a leader his articulation on this topic and his actions matter. When he chooses to mock Cunliffe as a substitute for mature dialogue on an important topic it is hard to take his advice that some boys need to grow up, when their leaders wont.

        • RedLogix

          Exactly. Of all the shitty stunts I’ve seen Key pull this last few years – this is the one that really, really rankles with me personally.

          But despite this its a fact that what Key is doing here is a very calculated and effective strike on the left because the underlying meme does resonate with so very many New Zealanders.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            I would say that’s exactly what National’s pollsters have been telling it, even post-election.

            • tracey

              yes… and before the election hence my comment in the post about the disturbing number of kiwis with that attitude that he is playing to…

            • emergency mike

              Indeed, people don’t like their cozy and familiar world view challenged with the possibility that they could be wrong and be in the wrong about something like this.

              National has gambled, correctly it seems, (especially with the MSM more than happy to gleefully/compliantly/complicitly play along with the ‘sorry for being a man’ show), that the public would rather latch on to the ‘oh those damn leftie liberal pinko killjoys’ angle than engage in the actual topic of Cunliffe’s speech.

              They played on the cognitive dissonance: is that nasty man David Cunliffe trying to say we are bad people or something? Or is he a damn leftie liberal pinko killjoy like John Key’s T-shirt says, like the TV news says… yeah that’s a much easier thought to accept, I’ll go with that…

              It would have been fine if we could have had some public debate about violence towards women in our society, instead we got everyone giggling and agreeing with Matthew Hooton & co that ‘sorry for being a man’ was a vote killer.

              Meanwhile, National cuts funding for rape crisis centers and other resources. Maybe their polling said that would be kewl too.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.2

        …to me that was always a narrow view; that while I was not responsible, nor personally accountable for what they had done – because I identified with their group I could nonetheless feel a sense of shame and embarrassment …

        Thanks RL I’ve been trying to figure out how to articulate this too.

      • vto 9.1.3

        You have put your point across well mr logix and it is along the lines of what was expected. In other words we should feel some responsibility/shame for those of our ‘identity groupings’ who transgress, though not the guilt etc.

        It is a fair point and for society to function properly this feature must exist of course.

        Personally I think sometime this feature is over-exaggerated in this male arena, evidenced by the sometime call “all men are rapists” for example, but subject to that minor qualifier you are correct and it applies to all identity groupings in society.

        I was hoping someone would flesh out a response to my question, which was struggling to be answered with mine own small brain, and you have done so well which I see others have noted.

    • Tracey 9.2

      you seem to be doing ok talking to yourself, so why would I interupt?

      • George Hendry 9.2.1

        Thanks for this post Tracey 🙂

        To me it seems to have engendered the finest discussion thread found anywhere on this topic, particularly the contribution by Red Logix at 9.1. Notable too for the effective absence of trolls, whose task could be described as trying to stop shared understanding from reaching this level.

        The distinction made between shame (shared, collective) and guilt (individual) once understood will enable more males to share in the work of dismantling gender-based abuse. The fear that if a man expresses regret about it he will be seen as a soft target and almost immediately attacked for what harder targets have done, will be that little bit easier to address now that (thanks to threads like this one) understanding of the issue has been clearly realised.

        We might say the PM’s strategy is to blur the distinction between shame and guilt, pour scorn on both and be rewarded by a loyal voter bloc, so grateful that as long as they vote for him they will never have to say they’re sorry. In that they are human ( fallible, threatened) – if the issue goes away they might return to their normal unthreatened semireasonable behaviour.

        Were the government to maintain funding to Women’s Refuge and related groups I don’t think most such men would have a problem with that, because it would be a government decision and didn’t mean that they themselves needed to say sorry for anything. Funding gets cut to deliberately foment anguish and discord and thereby to deepen the social divide, and Mr Key’s job needs to be seen as including destroying NZ society by systematically shredding shared values and setting us at each other’s throats if we let him get away with it.

      • vto 9.2.2

        Tracey, that is not much of a response to what was a genuine question, but I see RL has made a go of it above, which you have agreed with…..

        • tracey

          I am sure you havent forgotten our “discussion” of that very thing in the past, and the loggerheads it led too. On that basis I thought you were wanting to travel that road again, something I didnt want to do. I am glad RL was able to adequately answer it.

          For me RL’s response is one of my nominees for comment of the year.

  10. goldbloom 10

    What about Hone who had a man charged with raping a young child on his side on election night. I found that especially appalling given what Mana were supposed to represent.

    The silence from Bomber was deafening in contrast to how outspoken he was about the Malaysian alleged rapist.

    • Colonial Rawshark 10.1

      And if the staffer and employing MP had been UK Tory, they would have got away scot-free.

      By the way, have you ever tried to terminate someone’s employment on the basis that they have been charged (but not found guilty)? You’re begging for an employment lawsuit mate.

      • The Al1en 10.1.1

        “And if the staffer and employing MP had been UK Tory, they would have got away scot-free.”

        And a life peerage

      • Tozer 10.1.2

        Actually I think you will find that anyone else facing those charges would have been ‘stood down’ from their role facing an employment investigation.

        In politics people get stood down based on mere suspicion or rumor when it comes to relatively minor matters. [RL: Deleted]

  11. Reddelusion 11

    I agree with VTO comment here, a very rare occurrenceindeed. I am not sure imposing collective guilt on one class no matter what reasoning you adopt, it simply sways that class away from the underlying issue, the very small minority of rat bag men out there

    • RedLogix 11.1

      The word I used was shame. A related but different word to guilt. Perhaps you are incapable of it – which explains a lot.

    • Tracey 11.2

      That you and vto think the most important aspect of the post is that you should feel guilty is an interesting response.

      • vto 11.2.1

        That you assume I thought it the most important aspect of your post is more telling.

        assumptions eh ……… mind you, same as previous “discussions” we have had on various similar related issues …… full of assumptions.

  12. Rodel 12

    I thought you were going to suggest that Slater was a ‘man of the year’.
    In which case i was going to apologize for being a man.

  13. Last week during his busy time as PM, Key stopped at loads of FM radio stations and proudly wore a t-shirt proclaiming that he is not sorry to be a man.

    Well, yeah. We’re talking here about a guy who was happy to do a radio show with domestic violence enthusiast Vietchy and blather about which female celebs he’d like to fuck (Liz Hurley, whom Key considered “a bit old” at years younger than him). The shirt’s relatively restrained in comparison to that outing.

    I think people tend to forget what an obnoxious shithead lurks under that false bonhomie.

    • tracey 13.1

      As for your last sentence, my deep fear is because so many agree with the sentiments he expresses and represents in this area.

      I had forgotten the liz hurley nonsense, so thanks for reminding us.

    • Murray Rawshark 13.2

      Labour should have used that somehow. Someone who has adolescent fantasies about fucking movie stars shouldn’t be tasked with a demanding position. I’ve seen very little behaviour from Key that isn’t that of a badly adjusted adolescent. He was probably jealous of the roastbusters.

      • Tracey 13.2.1

        Unless his programmers and pollsters have devised the image cos they believe it will make him popular. He is afterall a manufactured politician and “leader”

      • Colonial Rawshark 13.2.2

        Murray. If you recall, Labour did indeed “use that incident” re: adolescent fantasies about movie stars:

        Phil Goff said that he would also include Elle McPherson and Julia Roberts in his own top five hot women list.



        • Tracey

          Shaking head

          It appears key and goff think leadership is defined as behaving like the lowest common denominator male.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            That, but worse IMO was the utter inability of Labour at that time to figure out how to land a political hit on Key, even as Key left his jaw hanging open and exposed.

            “Key shouldn’t be day dreaming of tits and ass while he’s on the NZ tax payers dollar”


            blokey vote won. conservative vote won. womens vote won. media soundbite war won.

            How fucking hard is this to do, seriously. I mean, Julia Roberts FFS

        • Murray Rawshark

          When I say Labour should have done something, it often turns out that Phil Goff, Shane Jones or some other moran had already tried and fucked it up. Hone would have said he only had eyes for Hilda.

  14. vto 14

    repeated here from open mike 26th……..

    Open mike 26/12/2014

    So a couple days ago Tracey posted a post called “2014 Man of the Year” and suggested that men bear a larger burden of the responsibility for male domestic violence because of their gender.

    I suggested that was inappropriate but mr redlogix posted a good response outlining why identity groupings should be responsible for sectors of their indentity grouping who are criminals etc. /2014-man-of-the-year/#comment-943260 It seemed to make some sense and garnered some support from others….

    …. Yet watching the muslim world at the moment trying to deal with the Isis mob and assorted ‘terrorists’ around the globe (Sydney, france, Canada), they deny and refute absolutely ANY responsibility or shame for that part of their identity grouping. They want nothing to do with Isis and reject completely any suggestion that it is partly their responsibility…. (sorry no links – the main one was on Al Jazeera yesterday, some interview with relevant spokespeople)………..

    So Tracey and Redlogix and OAB and others from the Man of the Year thread, how does that square with the pronouncement by the Muslim world? Are they shirking their responsibility for Isis? Or is that they are right and they have no reason to be responsible for what they termed the Isis ‘criminals’? And if so then I as a male in NZ have no responsibility for male criminals here.

    So what is the go ………..

    I suspect there will be a lurking pinhead that could have a dance attempted on it ….

    • karol 14.1

      False equivalence – the equivalent to a Muslim saying sorry for being a Muslim, would be a woman saying sorry, in the face of the (untrue) fact that most violence is done by women against men.

    • batweka 14.2

      ok, what was the point of posting this twice? It’s just going to get confusing now having two conversations running in different palces.

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