A few thoughts on election 2011

Written By: - Date published: 10:13 am, November 27th, 2011 - 321 comments
Categories: election 2011 - Tags:

Firstly, congratulations to all those who won and condolences to those who didn’t (political friend and enemy alike).

Some thoughts, in no particular order:

John Key says he doesn’t need the Maori Party but if the specials come in like they did in 2008 he may lose a seat to the Greens and one to Labour. That means he may very much need the Maori party.

Act is effectively dead. National is now stuck with the problems Banks brings but no benefit in terms of extra MPs. In fact the stink around the deal to get him there may have cost National a governing majority.

Winston is back. I hope all you lefties who voted for him are happy with your choice.

It wasn’t a total hiding for Labour. There are some good MPs who have been lost but the base held (for the most part).

A disappointing show for Mana but it pays to remember the party didn’t exist six months ago. I think they’ll be a bigger player in 2014.

Turnout was low. There’s a steady decline in electoral disengagement – I think it’s partly due to horserace politics and partly a symptom of the postmodern condition. I think it is incumbent upon every political party to spend more time engaging its parliamentary arm with its party and with the broader community.

The Christchurch result is fascinating.

Phil Goff. What can I say. He ran a pretty good four week campaign but it came off the back of three years of poor performance. I think he’s done enough that he can step down with dignity.

There’s plenty more to think about – feel free to add your two cents.

321 comments on “A few thoughts on election 2011”

  1. gingercrush 1

    Goff should wait six months. No Labour candidate have shown themselves to be credible enough to lead the party at this point. Some have potential. My personal opinion is Robertson or Shearer have potential but need a bit more time like John Key got.

    National is in serious need of partners.

    Voters are always right and any attempt to blame the media for your loss is positively stupid. And anyone that said a vote for anyone other than Labour is a mistake really should take a cup of tea and a lie down. For the election result wouldn’t be as close as it is now had that advice been followed.

    • Pat 1.1

      In 2014 Key will have a cup of tea with Colin Craig, and Rodney will become the new Epsom.

      • alex 1.1.1

        My pick is that Banks will leave ACT and join Conservative, along with possibly Dunne, though that is unlikely. The Nats need a proper partner and Banks just doesn’t belong in “liberal” ACT.

      • Misanthropic Curmudgeon 1.1.2

        The flaw in that idea is the ‘socially conservative’ aspect of The Conservatives, and the presumption of absolutes in life (which is more in tune with Mana/Green/Labour/NZFirst).

        They’re quite a liberal lot up that way.

    • mikesh 1.2

      Now that MMP is set to stay there will be a review. If the review were to abolish the threshold ACT would in all probability pick up quite a few seats. They did badly this time round because of uncertainty about Banks’ prospects in Epsom.

    • Brokenback 1.3

      I’ve been contemplating a way forward from this horrible outcome.
      The Labour/Greens/NZF need more than a few cracks in Nats Parliamentary majority to do what NZ needs.

      I strongly suggest that all leaders immediately sign an accord[ to be ratified by member ballot] stating:

      Caveat Emptor
      To the prospective purchasers of New Zealand’s assets , be advised that when  we inevitably gain the Treasury benches we will immediately, without debate or hesitation , Nationalise the said assets.
      No compensation will be rendered in lieu of Nationalisation.

      Should  thin the ranks of prospective buyers.

  2. Blue 2

    There’s no one in Labour right now that I’d rather have as the leader.

    Phil was just starting to win people over, and with as much as 19.5% support as preferred PM in some polls, he had a solid base to build on for 2014.

    It’s sad that he feels he has to go.

  3. Danielle Pattenden 3

    Our voter turn out is an absolute disgrace! Almost 1/3 of New Zealand voters did not turn out. Last election voter turn out was at 86% this needs to be investigated and delved into, as to why so many did not vote! Man it could have changed the results if they had turned out

    • weka 3.1

      “Voter turnout of the eligible population in 2008 was 76 percent, a slight decline from 77 percent in 2005. Voter participation in general elections sharply from 89 percent in 1984 to 78 percent in 1990, increased slightly to 81 percent in 1996, then fell again to a new low of 72.5 percent in 2002.”

      http://socialreport.msd.govt.nz/civil-political-rights/voter-turnout.html

      I agree though, 68% is a real worry.

      • aerobubble 3.1.1

        first off, when the distribution of votes takes place, are you sure ACT won’t get a second seat???
        Second, National didn’t win, Labour’s vote collapsed (which means after another three years of more Nat they will be very eager). Third, Greens won which means the planet is more damaged since people will vote for Greens as the planet gets sicker.

        Did Dunne say no to asset sales????

        I was wondering now that Nat got ?less votes than 2008? will a backbencher roll him
        since a no-asset sale National would romp home in an election. Or did they only win because
        National blocked out the debate with the rugby and teagate. I mean lots of Labour
        voters would have epected much longer to get into the elction proper and maybe they
        just forgot????

        But what I really wanted to point out is how Labour tax cuts (lower threshold, gst off
        food for everyone who does not pay capital gains – most people) was thrown back at
        the voters. So its like voters will only vote for National if the tax cuts increase substantially
        for the press talking heads and John Key. Go figure why the MSM was backing Key to
        the very end, even afterward they are kicking Labour like it was irrelevent, but when
        you look at the numbers it is a dead heat until the finally tally. MSM rightwing bias again.

        • Lanthanide 3.1.1.1

          “first off, when the distribution of votes takes place”

          What distribution is that? We don’t run STV in the general election for the party vote or for electorates.

          If you’re talking about special votes, these usually favour the Greens, not ACT.

        • sean maitland 3.1.1.2

          “National didn’t win….”

          It is the best result by any party under the MMP system – hard to not call that a win?

          National’s best result in 60 years also.

          If they hadn’t have gone along with the bloody tea-tapes malarkey they probably would’ve hit 50%.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.2.1

            National barely control half the seats in the House. They did strongly but its no big deal.

            • Carol 3.1.1.2.1.1

              And it’s FPP corporatist attitude to see empire building as the main achievement. A coaltion of smaller parties with some similar policies could achieve the same outcome in terms of votes. And they could provide a more democratic government.

            • McFlock 3.1.1.2.1.2

              But CV – tories never understand the need for friends. 🙂
              As it is labour is better than the nats were in 2002, the greens are through the roof, tories are down to one brand that’s subject to the whims of the floaters, and I think whenlabour do get in the boomerang will be quite nice.

              • Vicky32

                and I think whenlabour do get in the boomerang will be quite nice.

                Sadly, I fear some of us can’t survive that long..

                • neoleftie

                  look to the victimisation, demonisation and marginalistion of the underclass, the poor and those who face any societal adversity by the tories who now have their mandate of change.

                  With 5-7 billion in cash from asset sales to balance the economy they can slash and burn the state sector.
                  With a manadate from over 50% of the elecorate who voted for the tory or tory coalition parties its open ideoligical slaughter on the old right foes – the poor, workers, unions, engorged state sector, govt state owned assets.
                  oh the rise and rise of the empire – time to strike back, to organise, to enagage and prepare…

              • Misanthropic Curmudgeon

                I challenge you to revist that peice of absurd and flawed rhetoric by counting the number or parties that Labour said they could work with and compare it to the number of parties National said it could work with.

      • Danielle Pattenden 3.1.2

        I got my 86% figure from a facebook comment so I think that may have been enrolled voters turnout. For some reason I thought it was much higher! But this is from my NZ politics class in 2008

        • Misanthropic Curmudgeon 3.1.2.1

          “I got my 86% figure from a facebook comment”

          Well, thats a credible source, then.

          I bet you think that borrowing a few more billion to geive to beneficiaries is a good idea, and (Labour’s line) that borrowing to buy assets is not really borrowing (which anybody with a mortgage knows is utter bollocks) so does not count?

    • Vicky32 3.2

      Man it could have changed the results if they had turned out

      I just don’t get why they don’t! Interestingly, my older son and my niece both discovered that their changes of address hadn’t gone through, as they had thought, and so they had to cast specials. For how many others was something like that the case, especially for the young and itinerant? Their special votes for Labour haven’t been counted yet. It may not be as bleak as it seems…

    • Steve 3.3

      “Our voter turn out is an absolute disgrace! Almost 1/3 of New Zealand voters did not turn out. Last election voter turn out was at 86% this needs to be investigated and delved into, as to why so many did not vote! Man it could have changed the results if they had turned out”

      Kiwi voters sometimes bother to try and discuss matters with politicians, that really need addressing more.

      Its not going to really help New Zealander want to turn out when it finally comes to election day to vote. If over the term of government , these discussions seem to just keep falling on deaf ears , with no further mention or anything to help suggest any real interest, in these matters these folks bring up.

      The labour government has lost step with its foundations. Its supposed to be a peoples party. A party that gets out there, listens and really cares. And shows that it really cares ,by proving discussion wont be only falling on deaf ears.

      Where was the actual connection , with all the people living in tough situations, needing to deal with problems ,during this election campain ?. We didnt even see much of it on TV . Because Labour has allowed itself to lose that personal touch ! with its people

      You cant really expect it will be very likely for the Labour folk to even want to bother to turn out and vote , when that happens.

      I say this as a Labour voter. Who still voted Labour. Yet still feel labour has surely disregarded its roots

  4. Pat 4

    On the face of it, it seems like Labour bled some votes to NZF. Tactical voting, apparently. If Labour voters have lost the likes of Stuart Nash, Kelvin Davies and maybe Carmel Sepuloni to allow the likes of Andrew Williams into parliament, then that’s just a whole lot of crazy.

    Don’t mess around with your party vote, because your party needs it.

    • ScottGN 4.1

      I agree with you on this. I toyed with the Greens this election (NZFirst was a step too far) but eventually I decided that at this low ebb Labour needed my vote. I’m pleased I stayed true.

  5. gingercrush 5

    Labour also seem to have done better in the electorate vote than party vote. Labour’s billboards anyone? Sorry but I honestly thought they were a throwback to National 2002 billboards.

  6. johnm 6

    Now we’re for it! King Shonkey is going to privatize our power stations and supply!

    The pretense is that privatization is more efficient. But privatizers add on interest and financial fees, high executive salaries and bonuses,and shareholders expect ever increasing dividends and turn utilities into toll utilities and other infrastructure into neofeudal fiefdoms to charge monopolistic access fees for people to use. …. the financial sector first creates the problem by supplying the debt financing to buy public assets to be privatized. The interest charges are passed onto the consumer as increased charges for access.

    A once Public asset for the Public good is now a mechanism of profit extraction from hapless users.

    But WELL ORF kiwis with plenty of cash won’t be worried it’ll just be more pressure on the families of 200,000 deprived children who’ll receive no help at all except blame their low wage or unemployed parents. The underclass must not be encouraged to breed otherwise the rich might have to share their surplus wealth HOW AWFUL!

    • johnm 6.1

      I see this election as an astounding demonstration that better off kiwis have pulled the ladder up from their less fortunate fellows (No fellowship!) and are determined to live in a dreamworld led by chief dreammaker King Shonkey. We are rapidly becoming even more divided than ever before: at least Labour wanted to make amends, but too late.

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

        Many well off Kiwis simply don’t care that many NZers are being left behind. Little do they know that they are only a misfortune or two away from joining that club.

        And the underclasses and the working classes? They now see it as their lot in life to struggle and struggle for little reward and little attention.

        • Hami Shearlie 6.1.1.1

          Agreed CV! Some well off kiwis are mortgaged to the max with investment properties etc – they only need to lose their job, and they are in s..t creek, they are only a paypacket or two away from being on a benefit themselves, but they just can’t imagine that scenario – yet!

          • Vicky32 6.1.1.1.1

            they only need to lose their job, and they are in s..t creek, they are only a paypacket or two away from being on a benefit themselves, but they just can’t imagine that scenario – yet!

            I am filled with rage towards a middle class married lady I ‘debated’ on Facebook last week, she epitomises this kind of thinking. Although she claimed not to be a Nat supporter, her envy of DPB mothers who “have the choice to stay home with their children” was very evident. If hubby gets tired of her whining, or loses his job, she’ll end up being one of the women she hates, and discover how hard it really is. I don’t feel sorry for her – what a cow! If her photo is a genuinely current one, she’s a teenage mother – as many right-leaning evangelicals are… she thinks her own luck in being married is her own virtue – I hope she’ll learn otherwise.

    • mikesh 6.2

      “A once Public asset for the Public good is now a mechanism of profit extraction from hapless users.”

      That is the situation already. It is just that at present the the profits extracted from “hapless users” are going to the government. However, a government owned power company could, and should, benefit businesses and households by selling electricity at cost, and instead obtain its revenue by taxing incomes. The latter at least can be made to be progressive.

      • deservingpoor 6.2.1

        “That is the situation already. It is just that at present the the profits extracted from “hapless users” are going to the government.”

        I absolutely agree.
        Our public power companies are not run to provide a public service, they are run to provide a profit. Who they provide that profit to makes no difference to someone who can’t afford their power bill.
        To the third of people who didn’t vote, the issue of asset sales looked like an exercise in selling a private profit making company to a private profit making company.

  7. weka 7

    Mana also didn’t have any public funding. I expect them to do better next time too.

  8. Santi 8

    Goff should resign immediately.

    • aerobubble 8.1

      No, National voters should be congratulated for saying no to a tax cut, its
      about time they stopped grabbing more tax cuts. Vote National the no tax cut
      party. Voters will not allow assets to remain in X-Y vote hands and sell the now
      to pay
      for the retirement boomers, National will raid our assets notw.

  9. Olwyn 9

    I have been told that the voter turnout was the lowest since 1888! Not sure where to go to confirm this.

    Key’s team have been successful in (1) Persuading voters that Labour did not have a show in hell, which sent many scuttling to smaller parties that might go into coalition with Labour if things turned out better than feared, or provide a modifying influence on National if they did not. (2) Convincing people that you can at once be cool, urbane and a Tory. (3) Soothing any remaining sensitive middle class consciences about the plight of the oppressed without ameliorating the oppression, as in “taking ‘these people’ firmly in hand will actually help them.”

    I do not think, however, that they will continue with the sweet ride to which they are accustomed: as someone else has said, the specials may not alter things in their favour, and they may end up a couple of by-elections away from trouble. Not to mention, Peters is never shy about publicising whatever skulduggery he unearths, and I would be surprised if there was nothing for him to unearth.

    • RedLogix 9.1

      Not to mention, Peters is never shy about publicising whatever skulduggery he unearths, and I would be surprised if there was nothing for him to unearth.

      Exactly. I always said that Peters was the kind of politician who served best in Opposition. The Pansy/Sammy Wong deal over the DL locomotive purchase (well-known amoung KiwiRail staffers as corrupt) would have been bread and butter for the man.

      • mikesh 9.1.1

        Peters said on Q&A this morning that he will be bringing sunlight to political goings on. It sounds as though he may have an empty wine box or two hanging around in his office.

        • Carol 9.1.1.1

          Peters did say on TV in the last week (TV One? ipredict?) that he had done some research and knows that the new Conservative Party was set up by National.

        • SHG 9.1.1.2

          If you believe anything that Winston Peters says about anything, I have a bridge to sell you.

    • burt 9.2

      I agree with RedLogix, Peters is good in opposition. He tirelessly prostrates himself accusing others of all the things he is doing himself – which is fantastic theatre.

      • Inventory2 9.2.1

        He came into politics with so much promise burt, but Peters has never been able to figure out being in government. To do that requires him to put someone other than Winston first. His record of never having completed a three year term as a minister without either being sacked or stood down is telling.

        He will make a lot of noise from the opposition benches, but in truth, his contribution to the 50th Parliament will be little short of novelty value.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.3

      Peters is never shy about publicising whatever skulduggery he unearths, and I would be surprised if there was nothing for him to unearth.

      Politics is never dull with Winston below decks checking what’s in the cupboard 😈

      • mike 9.3.1

        Exactly, so many people I’ve talked to act like the sky will fall becasue Winston is in. Sure he may be a shameless opportunist, but if any government needs a watchdog it’s this one. This cloud could well have a silver lining.

  10. John Dalley 10

    My thoughts on a new Labour leadert are this. Cunliffe comes across with some degree of arogance. Parker is another Bill Rowling. My vote might go to David Shearer?

    • I dreamed a dream 10.1

      I like David Shearer too. Perhaps David Parker as deputy.

      • Inventory2 10.1.1

        Parker’s big negative is that he has lost three consecutive electorate contests. Would Labour countenance a list MP as leader?

        I think Shearer has promise, but it might be a couple of years too soon; after all, he’s only been in Parliament since the 2009 Mt Albert by-election. Then again, the ABC principle might apply; Anyone But Cunliffe!

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1

          RWNJs scared of Cunliffe hence the early astroturfing.

          • seeker 10.1.1.1.1

            Deborah Coddington called David Cunliffe “oleaginous” in her column today. Beginnings of Right wing opinion smear narrative I thought.
            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10769090

            • lovinthatchangefeeling 10.1.1.1.1.1

              “oleaginous” Doesn’t that mean like “greasy” as in “a greasy little man in a blue suit”

              Cunliffe for leader? Tui time

              • AnnaLiviaPlurabella

                Stop repeating this stupid smear pushed by: a) Natz who know how good he is and know that he could take many National votes and b) those in our party who will be challenged to up their game.
                The reason the Natz and ACT pundits poohoo David Cunliffe is because he is a real threat to them. It is bloody galling to see Labour people do their dirty work for them. Wake up!

        • ScottGN 10.1.1.2

          Cullen used to be Deputy and was a list MP.

        • AnnaLiviaPlurabella 10.1.1.3

          Cough it up: have you worked with Cunliffe and is there any real basis to your comment? Or are you blindly doing the bidding of Coddington, Boag, Hooton??

        • jaymam 10.1.1.4

          “Parker’s big negative is that he has lost three consecutive electorate contests.”
          That’s not fair. He was standing in Epsom, where everyone was being exhorted to vote for Goldsmith. And Epsom is the least likely seat for Labour to win.

          Parker did an excellent job against Banks in the election campaign and I think he is the best leader for Labour on offer. Cunliffe would have been a better choice than Goff for the last 3 years but that’s too late now.

    • Hami Shearlie 10.2

      But does he have more charisma than Goff? – Don’t think so, maybe not enough parliamentary experience yet either. I think Phil should stay as leader. Helen did after she lost and came back to win another 9 years of a Labour led govt. Phil has shown compassion, integrity and true grit in the last 4 weeks, I don’t know who has the experience to replace him, and, with a bit more publicity from the media (who should have learned their lesson with the police now on their backs), he would become more popular – he strikes me as a true and decent man, he had a great campaign, just the wrong time. Shame on all those who didn’t vote or didn’t even register to vote! Shame, Shame, Shame!

      • Chess Player 10.2.1

        I don’t think you should compare Phil to Helen – he’s a nice guy, but he’s not half the man Helen was

        Sorry – couldn’t resist that…mea culpa

      • seeker 10.2.2

        Spot on comment Hami S. Agree with each word. Thanks.

        • Alistair 10.2.2.1

          yep my thoughts too. I went into the booth thinking Id have to vote for Winston to get more seats against national but mindful that he was likely over 5% I voted Labour. Goff impressed me in the last weeks of the campaign. I hope he stays.

      • Hanswurst 10.2.3

        I agree with this, too. Labour may not have made much of a dent in terms of votes, but they have in terms of making their policy known. Goff has also grown in profile throughout the campaign. Surely it would be best to see whether they can start to capitalise on that over a period of at least a year or so. If it works, keep Goff. If it seems to be failing, there would still be plenty of time to change leader before the election – with the added bonus that any new leader would be less closely associated with the 2011 election result, and that they would be a relatively fresh sight as leader, interesting to the media in much the same manner as Key was in 2008.

      • rosy 10.2.4

        Yep, Hami. I agree as well.

    • AnnaLiviaPlurabella 10.3

      Stop repeating this stupid smear pushed by: a) Natz who know how good he is and know that he could take many National votes and b) those in our party who will be challenged to up their game.
      The reason the Natz and ACT pundits poohoo David Cunliffe is because he is a real threat to them. It is bloody galling to see Labour people do their dirty work for them. Wake up!

    • the sprout 10.4

      Agreed Hami, Goff is Labour’s best asset right now.

      Shearer is certainly the Labour Leader of choice for right wingers, they correctly see him as the weakest opponent.

  11. Pete 11

    It seems pretty clear from his comments last night that Goff has come to a decision. I think that might be too hasty. Remember, Labour stuck with Clark after the 1996 defeat and look at how well she did after that.

    That said, if there is to be a transition, the caucus should sit down and have a bit of a think, looking at their overall strategy. Chris Trotter had some good points last night, saying that urban liberals had voted primarily for the Greens. I think the party should focus on attracting more women voters too.

    • just saying 11.1

      Chris Trotter was a disgrace. He was virtually frothing at the mouth in his bullshit attempt to blame Labour’s inclusion of anyone who isn’t a middle-class, Pakeha, Het male, for Labour’s routing.
      The guy’s got “iss sues” as K&K would say.

      • gingercrush 11.1.1

        Agreed. He was sulking. I see Matthew Hooten is doing the same.

      • neoleftie 11.1.2

        you missed the point – he’s pissed that the public are turned off by labour’s factions and their implied direction. Its not middle class white het or any other simple classification of a voter grouping. Its the inherant issue with labour, its image and brand within the electorate.

    • Inventory2 11.2

      There’s a difference Pete; by the end of this term, Phil Goff will have been in Parliament for 30 years. He’s hardly the new face of the Labour Party. Labour’s failure to rejuvenate after the 2008 defeat has been costly.

      • Hanswurst 11.2.1

        I don’t think that’s a big deal. Helen Clark had been around long enough by 1996 as well. I don’t think the general public sees a big difference between 15 and 30 years in that regard – you’re just someone who’s been around forever. Also, this “failure to rejuvenate” that you cite hardly seems to have harmed National over the last six years. On the other hand, Goff has plenty of young talent on his front bench and a relatively fresh policy direction on which the party can continue to build over the next few years. The biggest danger for the country is that Labour get scared and retreat towards National, becoming “Labour-lite”-lite over the course of the next term.

        My worst nightmare would see David Cunliffe taking over (which in itself wouldn’t be bad) and wasting his considerable talents in chasing electoral success by running a bland policy platform and being John Key minus the klutzy dickhead element.

    • Misanthropic Curmudgeon 11.3

      “Labour stuck with Clark after the 1996 defeat and look at how well she did after that.”

      Yeah, and how much NZ suffered.

  12. weka 12

    Great result for the Greens. I know some are pissed off at them, but this is a good result for the left. Let the Greens go mainstream and get some actual political clout, and then Mana have a space on the left to come into.

    • Vicky32 12.1

      I know some are pissed off at them,

      That’s putting it mildly! They’re middle class kiddies to a man  (and woman), and left? I don’t buy it at all.. 🙁

  13. dv 13

    The turnout was 85% of 2008

    Party vote number change cf 2008 as %
    Specials prorata per party vote.

    Nat +14,748 +1.8%
    Lab – 192,982 – 31.96%
    Green +78,744 +33.92%
    NZF +56,172 +37.07%
    MP -25,988 -86.55%
    Act -61,589 -257.62%
    Mana _+19,898
    UF -6,935 -51.14%
    Con +55,070

    The interesting point is that national only picked up a few extra votes, but lab lost lots of votes to greens and NZF.
    MP lost to Mana
    Act lost to Conservative.

    Winners in election
    Green, Mana, NZF, Con

    Losers
    Lab, Act, MP, UF

    No Change
    Nat

    • aerobubble 13.1

      Turnout was well down, Labour stayed home and didn’t want a tax cut.

      All it takes is one Hone in the National party and its caput Key.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.2

      Act lost to Conservative

      Which would be weird as Act is not (or at least wasn’t) a conservative party. It’s always been libertarian.

      • dv 13.2.1

        >>Which would be weird as Act is not (or at least wasn’t) a conservative party. It’s always been libertarian.
        I was just matching up the numbers and guessing!

      • Anita 13.2.2

        ACT had the Sensible Sentencing vote last election, it had to go somewhere and the Conservatives may well have taken some of it, tho I’m guessing more went to NZF and the Nats.

        And yes, Sensible Sentencing is not exactly libertarian (except for being able to stab and shoot criminals without any sanction)

  14. RedLogix 14

    I hope all you lefties who voted for him are happy with your choice.

    Nope… I never ever said I was going to be happy with it, but with NZ1 under 5% National would have likely had another couple of seats. Tactical voting is like that.

    • IrishBill 14.1

      Fair enough. That might have sounded more petulant than it was meant to.

      • pollywog 14.1.1

        Winstons last gasp.

        The public will tire of him again, the media will turn on him again, most of his constituency will have died off and without him there is no NZ first party.

        Always fun watching his antics though.

      • marsman 14.1.2

        IrishBill, the photo of John Key with your post is nausea inducing to some, could you perhaps replace it with something less odious like a photo of a toothpick?

        • happynz 14.1.2.1

          Agree with you there, marsman.

          • travellerev 14.1.2.1.1

            I can’t believe we did but we voted for Peters. Hope he keeps them honest or at least slows them down

            • Chess Player 14.1.2.1.1.1

              Do you have any idea how much grief people are going to give you over the next 3 years?

              Oh well, I guess you can always just put on your tin-foil hat….

        • mike 14.1.2.2

          Righton marsman – can’t stand seeing that mug on the site I like most – have complained – but no change. That physiognomy is everywhere, like a plague – why here?

    • mikesh 14.2

      I didn’t vote for him, but I’m happy that others chose to do so.

  15. prism 15

    I think you have nailed it Irish Bill. As for your comment –

    Turnout was low. There’s a steady decline in electoral disengagement – I think it’s partly due to horserace politics and partly a symptom of the postmodern condition. I think it is incumbent upon every political party to spend more time engaging its parliamentary arm with its party and with the broader community.

    this is something that can do with further investigation as a topic by someone who has a grasp of the problems and attitudes behind it.

    • mac1 15.1

      Prism and Irish Bill, I’d agree.

      I’d like to hear more discussion on the role of polling in either chasing voters away, encouraging voters or in promoting tactical voting.

      How much did constant 27% polling for Labour actually become self-fulfilling?

      The other point I’d make is that dropping voter turnout is heading for US level of 50% where democracy is severely challenged. I see this trend as a big worry.

      As for IB’s point about engaging with the parliamentary wing engaging with the party and the broader community- one hope I had for MMP was that it would encourage greater political party membership. Seems that memberships are still dropping. Where I live one branch had 1500 members once in the ’70s. Now the whole (larger) electorate would struggle to get a tenth of that.

      As for the party/community linkage, which comes first? If the community starts to resonate with the party, then membership should increase. Or does the party initiate the process? I suspect it’s linked and a cyclical self-feeding process.

      For me these are the questions for 2011 onwards for Labour and for parties of the Left. Policy seems to be trumped by presidential style, logic by emotion, social values by self-concern, progressive activism by apathy and disengagement.

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        There should be no poll results published or discussed by the media for 24 hours before election day.

        • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.1

          How about during the entire regulated period? Have them limited to discussing policy only.

          • Nawait 15.1.1.1.1

            Wasn’t this something Winston has argued for the past? It is is definitely an idea with merit but then we are stepping into the murky waters of curtailing media freedom…

            • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Some freedoms promote oppression. The MSMs freedom to continuously promote polls rather than investigate and report policy would be one of them.

              • Nawait

                I agree, but remember what happened last time a government laid down legaslation to make our elections a more level playing field, the right and their supporters in the media screamed blue murder the arrival of dictaroship. Imagine the response if legaslation was suggested to curtail the reporting of polls- the Tory media and their mates who run the polling companies ( sometimes one in the same commercial interest) would fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo they do so well out of. I’m not saying that is a reason not to change the rules but can’t see it happening anytime soon.

              • Misanthropic Curmudgeon

                Orwell could not have put it better himself.

            • Akldnut 15.1.1.1.1.2

              <i>Wasn’t this something Winston has argued for in the past? It is  definitely an idea with merit but then we are stepping into the murky waters of curtailing media freedom…</i>

              Much the same as Key has done with the Cup of Tea Saga

              • Nawait

                I wholeheartidly agree that Key took a step into those muddy waters with the tea tape saga. The reports internationally of our PM prompting a police investigation and subsequent warrants for news outlets a week prior to an election was a fantastic look for our country. Chalk that up with the letterman appearance, and the nauseting sight of our PM sending his limo to pick up WB execs to come over for dinner and change labour laws, all great for our burgeoning image as banana republic.
                Or should that be kumara republic

          • freedom 15.1.1.1.2

            +1

        • Vicky32 15.1.1.2

          There should be no poll results published or discussed by the media for 24 hours before election day.

          +1

    • Draco T Bastard 15.2

      this is something that can do with further investigation as a topic by someone who has a grasp of the problems and attitudes behind it.

      I’m seriously thinking that it’s because some people vote and don’t see any change – no matter which party they vote for. This is always the people who are in the lower income deciles. They see the party/s take power, that government then kowtows to the corporates and the rich and they become worse off and it doesn’t matter who that government is.

      They feel powerless and thus disengage shifting the countries politics further to the right. The other parties see the right winning and shift to right themselves making the disengagement worse. This has already happened in the US.

  16. kriswgtn 16

    I gave my party vote to Labour @ the last minute.I had a feeling that NZF would have the oldies vote so i changed my mind @ last minute
    but hey it aint over yet.I think Goff should stay for just a wee bit longer.

    I am so over the bullshit excuse we have for msm in this country

    I actually enjoy watchjing Marae Investigates and wont be watchin the nation or that holmes/espiner ‘s ass licking prostate of Key backside show anymore cos to me its irrelevant.

    At least on MI they seem to be impartial to favouritism

    so yeah lets make sure that in 2014 it will be a left victory and destroy National

    hopefully by then Key will/wouild have fukd off cos IMO key is the only reason these bastards got back in

  17. The Voice of Reason 17

    The low turnout is no surprise. 3 years of the MSM telling people not to bother voting, because it’s a done deal, has taken a toll. That Mediaworks rort was money well spent, eh?

    Time to move to compulsory enrolment, I reckon. And, yes, I know we have it already in theory, but 200,000 young peeps didn’t enrol despite being eligible. That’s 4-5 Green, Labour and Mana MP’s not elected.

    As for Labour, I hope Phil stays for a while and then hands over to one of the David’s and, please Lord, please, Jacinda Adern. Thrilled as I was to see Denise Roche elected, her electorate vote helped Nikki Kaye no end and losing Ak central must not stop Jacinda taking a leadership role.

    And, can some other senior Labour MP’s now gracefully pass the baton on to the next generation? A couple of retirements during the term would be in order and winning the consequent by-elections in, say, early 2014, would be a major boost to the party’s hopes of leading after the next go round.

    And 3 final words. Iain Lees Galloway. Whatever Iain is doing to keep winning Palmy needs to be replicated in provincial seats around the country. The Tories wanted Palmy bad and he still managed to double his majority. There’s a lesson there somewhere.

    • wtl 17.1

      We already have compulsory enrolment. I reckon compulsory voting may be the way to go as well, with the caveat being that all voting papers should have a ‘no confidence’ option to ensure those who cannot support the current candidates/parties have an appropriate option. We do not want our turnout to reach the levels in the US.

      • Chess Player 17.1.1

        Compulsory voting???

        Sheesh – What are you going to do? Put a gun to people’s head and make them vote on pain of death?

        Perhaps there need to be some inspiring leaders that have some idea of what people want – that might do it…

        • Jackal 17.1.1.1

          I thought the same thing Chess Player… the very low voter turnout is a clear symptom of an ineffective political process. The main fault for that is clearly politicians and their dirty tactics.

          However it’s not the only reason for the low turnout. As things become more difficult especially in rural areas people become disengaged. Poor people are less likely to vote meaning that National’s war on welfare works in to favour. The change to digital TV and the closing of various broadcasters will also add to a continuing trend of low voter turnout.

          • seeker 17.1.1.1.1

            @Jackal

            “However it’s not the only reason for the low turnout. As things become more difficult especially in rural areas people become disengaged. Poor people are less likely to vote meaning that National’s war on welfare works in to favour. ”

            At uni. in the UK , Democracy and Public Policy 101 taught us that to keep right wing govts in power they needed high unemployment and apathy. A tick for both of these are in place now as regards Key’s brighter future for himself and his business buddies.

    • Lanthanide 17.2

      Labour list retirements could bring Carmel and Kelvin back in, too.

      • Hami Shearlie 17.2.1

        Stuart Nash needs to be brought back – I had thought of him as a future leader – a great loss for labour!

        • Misanthropic Curmudgeon 17.2.1.1

          As somebody who has voted for almost every party except Labour, I reckon that bringing Stuart Nash and Carmel Sepoulini back in would be great news.

          For every party except Labour.

          The harsh reality is that Labour had only two decent candidates in this election, one of them was shafted by the Clark-ites who compiled the list (Kelvin Davis) and the other gave the finger to the Clark-ites who compiled the list and went to his electorate and won it back for Labour: O’Conner.

          Pretty much every other Labour candidate is a party hack, a unionist, or somebody who has never had a real job (or a combination of the above). No tradies, no drivers, no clinicians, not even a real beancounter.

          How Labour can claim to be the voice of the working class people when they dont even have any is a facinating insight into self-deception.

    • kriswgtn 17.3

      I totally agree
      As for Palmy result= excellant

      i didnt think Hapeta had a shit show but yeah the nats were going hard out pity Labour didnt put in more work in Otaki esp Levin Otaki and Pram

      Apart from Meeting David Foster when he called into home one sunday afternoon. I never saw any political interest from any parties in Levin

  18. ste3e 18

    Given only 65% of the population voted we are sort of repeating history. White fella came, nicked land, set up of legal system to mediate and then gave land to white fella whenever Maori never showed. Maybe the left bloc (still the biggest bloc without non-voters) should state an intention as of now to nationalise the state assets and pay back investors at cost once they regain parliament. This would make the shares toxic while unaltering the dividend stream; i.e keep the assets and the dividend stream.

    I agree that Goff should stay, Pity it took until the final days of the election for his personality to break through the media portrayal he had been buried under for the past three years.

  19. stevo 19

    A top down cull of Labour’s list is required. Not everyone, but a clean out is needed to change the perception folks have of Labour. my 2c

    • burt 19.1

      I agree. Sadly the two most needing to be removed still have their electorates fooled that they are competent.

    • pollywog 19.2

      Better start getting my shit sorted and cleaning up my act if i want to have a run at parliament in 2014 but hmmm…red or green ?

      From a purely fashion point of view, red doesn’t suit my complexion and greens do need a strong Pasifikan voice to complement Turei and balance out Norman 🙂

      • prism 19.2.1

        pollywog
        While you are sorting out your colour fashion preferences to appeal to the popular taste, what about designing us a flag that suits our new future, (which is more like a suture – a stitch-up)!

      • mikesh 19.2.2

        So things are not entirely black and white.

  20. prism 20

    TVOR
    Compulsory enrolment (and voting) – ‘compulsory’ seems almost an oxymoron but we do want people participating in their and our democracy so that would bring the requirement under their nose and hard to ignore. My thoughts are that otherwise we get a skewed result such as the polls which rely on landline encounters bringing in large numbers of older, less mobile and those with funds to pay the costs.

    And please get moving Labour and get a newer cast with the bright and good ones coming through who will put new vigour to the candidates. And the David who I heard about on radio is a Presbyterian minister, has a Treasury connection and I think is from Dunedin. Please take care that he’s not another of the dry right wing ring-ins like Caygill that gatecrashed the Labour Party and took all the people-fizz and pop away. Keep such people under control and away from Cabinet.

    • AnnaLiviaPlurabella 20.1

      David Cunliffe’s father was an Anglican Rector in Timaru. He was know as the Red Reverend, because of his sermons on social justice. He pissed off the local Natz in a big way. That was the environment in which David was brought up. David is now pissing off Natz! Pity some Labour people are doing their work for them.
      Cunliffe studied politics at University of Otago before working first as a diplomat and then as a business consultant. In 1994 and 1995, he was a Fulbright Scholar and Kennedy Memorial Fellow at Harvard University’s John F. Kennedy School of Government and Harvard Business School, earning a Master of Public Administration from the Harvard Kennedy School in 1995.

  21. KTY 21

    Lockwood Smith resigned did’t he. would that not mean that a new speaker has to be found, now over here in N.Z. does the speaker only have voting rights if there is a tie, and dosn’t that mean that Key could be needing a little more help to get things through the house if the special votes went against him?.

  22. illuminatedtiger 22

    What does everyone think will happen in Christchurch Central? I’ve heard that special votes always favour the incumbent but it’s still a cliff hanger.

    • gingercrush 22.1

      I’m a bit shocked by the result personally as I didn’t think Nicky Wagner stood a chance. I knew where I live Saint Albans would be very supportive of Wagner and National as too Papanui and Merivale. Other places went to Burns but not nearly as much as to be expected. In saying all that Burns should take the specials.

      • Inventory2 22.1.1

        Which will end Raymond Huo’s parliamentary career; he sits on the precipice at the moment. If Burns wins Huo topples; if Wagner wins, he survives.

  23. Alistair 23

    “I hope all you lefties who voted for him are happy with your choice.”

    I didn’t in the end, I voted Labour. Goff woke up suddenly and sounded relevant. I think Goff should stay on as leader until there is someone else who demonstrates they actually want to be the leader.

    Fucking glad Winston is back in because he has a lot of seats the nats don’t otherwise have. He can communicate with public unlike most of the Labour mps these days. Its called media aware savvy shit. Labour should call in an expert to teach them media aware savvy shit and fire that expert who teaches them to be invisible.

    Winston is against asset sales. The other mp who I hear is against them is Goff so that’s two.

    At least Act result is even better than Act death. If politics sucks then at least let it be entertaining.

  24. Well there will be fireworks in parliament, but that won’t stop the banksters from their fire sales. The biggest plurality of electors these days are the disenfranchised and abstentions. 11 million in Spain. 4.5% lost to the bourgeois ‘socialists’.
    In Greece and Italy they didnt even get to vote for direct Bankster rule. NZ is the exception where the the Goldman Sachs stooge went through the formalities.
    The poor have judged parliament to be an irrelevant talk shop.
    Time to look to where the real power lies and mobilise outside parliament to take the power. It will take time so best to start now – oh its already started.

  25. anne 26

    The special votes may change the landscape a bit,throw a grenade in the mix,if they go labour or the greens way,if the maori party go into a confidence and supply arrangement with the nats,they will have alot of supporters even more peed off,turia is really only out for number one,she likes the baubles of office and has stated ‘i am a big spender’,with reference to her spending on staff credit cards,two more seats on the left would change things,hopefully this will be the case.
    There are still alot of ghosts and secrets to come out for national,that is scf,tea tapes,the police enquiry,pike river,rena,latest big sea drilling contract, asset sales deal with Goldman Sachs’s, it appears that the public dont care
    cos they love john,this term is going to be more difficult than the last 3yrs,the same BS will remain, the same sort of spin, the same hamstringing of the media etc, the next 3yrs will be even more difficult for those that are suffering now,our future is not looking that bright as it does for those
    in the beehive,wealth wise and health wise.

  26. Afewknowtheturth 27

    Irish

    ‘There’s a steady decline in electoral disengagement’

    Do you mean there has been a steady decline in electoral engagement (or a steady increase in electoral disengagment)?

    Pehaps the following apply:

    1. A larger portion of the populace is apathetic because more people are depressed.

    2. An increasing portion of the populace is starting to recognise that the elections are media orchestrated charades.

    3. More people recognise that the vast majority of candiates are liars who make promises they cannot keep or do not intend to keep.

    dave brown

    ‘Time to look to where the real power lies and mobilise outside parliament to take the power’

    It’s a little to early for that in NZ; people are not suffering enough yet. Give it another couple of years.

  27. Tiger Mountain 28

    Mid East people are dying in the streets to get the rights that several hundred thousand whimpy and or underinformed kiwis didn’t bother with yesterday, (fair enough in some cases where non participants are systemically disengaged rather than just can’t be bothered).

    • Phil Goff made a very good campaign effort after being hung out to dry basically by senior members. Though mongrel was missing in the opposition till the last part of this year. Don’t rush the new leadership, but do it by sometime in 2012. Agree with Voice, include Jacinda, Deputy?
    • The movement part of Te Mana can now get on with its activist role and engaging young people in politics.
    • Dunnycan, Banksie and MP are lucky wee conniving torys this time around, though what ACT backers spent on the whole leadership/Epsom deal would keep a small island nation going for some time.
    • What a pack of arseholes the ‘good people of Epsom’ showed themselves to be. I don’t fully buy “the voters are always right even when they are wrong” truism.
    • We have a divided nation and it is going to get ugly at various points till the next election. Financial crashes, peak oil and other “Occupy” issues have not faded because the Prime mincer has slid back in. Fear and loathing will first be unleashed on the young and beneficiaries and then the natz will work their way through the hit list-public service, teachers, unions and union members, volunteer and aid sector.
    • On one side we have a surveillence society, cops and state with increased snooping powers and less rights for people in the court system. On the other there is a cone of silence on what the government is up to (ie Ombudsman ruling on asset sale chicanery).

    What’s so funny about peace love and understanding… normal service will resume tomorrow.

  28. henry olongo 29

    I am a ChCh Central voter & would like to mention that Brendan Burns crew did a great job in this electorate. They were very active here in Shirley. The Wagner vote reflects the extent to which the central & eastern part of the electorate has been earthquake affected- theres lots of people who are left type voters who just aren’t here any more- in my street there’s multiple HNZ houses empty post quake. A ‘blue-green’ MP? She makes my skin crawl.

    • anne 29.1

      My thoughts are with you all in ch ch,if what you say works out,a win for labour would be on the cards as there is 240.000 special votes to count and there is 5 seats in question that have a
      close call,so it aint over yet.Also nats claim they have an overwhelming win, the facts are
      48% for the nats, 2% rigged(epsom & ohariu) 50% definatley did not vote for national,there should not be any agreements and planning by key until ALL votes are in.

  29. tsmithfield 30

    “…he may lose a seat to the Greens and one to Labour.”

    If Labour and the Greens each gain a seat with specials, then another possibility is that National drops one and NZ First drops one. My understanding is that NZ First tends not to do very well in the specials, so that is a real possibility, and would still leave National with a majority without the MP.

  30. Treetop 31

    When it comes to Nationals budget forecasts they will not walk the talk, then all those who voted for National are going to wake up and realise that they were conned.

    The only way that National will meet the budget forecast each year is to sell off more assets, cut public spending and public sector jobs.

    I have no time for anyone who complains about not being able to find a job, asset sales, the deficit, basic cost of living if they did not vote, because their vote may have made the difference in the election results.

    Winston will be superb in the House during question time and he will not back off until he gets the answer.

    Goff needs to stay as leader until next February as there is so much else going on that I think it is irrelevant for now who the Labour leader is.

    The election was a bit like the last one in Aussie as Gillard relied on the independent seats and she has not had an easy ride always looking over her shoulder.

    The Maori Party (Mp) need to very carefully consider how Maori will be affected if the Mp even give confidence and supply to National.

    If there is a confidence and supply agreement can this be broken and if so what is required for this to happen?

    • Draco T Bastard 31.1

      If there is a confidence and supply agreement can this be broken and if so what is required for this to happen?

      Of course it can be broken. NZ1st and National broke theirs in 1997/8. The only reason why we didn’t get a change in government at the time was because enough NZ1st MPs jumped ship and sided with National.

      Of course, a collapse of the government isn’t the only possibility if another agreement can be reached. IIRC, with the collapse of the Alliance we saw Labour continue on as a minority government until the end of term in 2002.

  31. Leary 32

    Lasting impression of the Nats term- lies and coverups.
    First impression of new term- : Lie within minutes. Key following his speech then interviewed by TV is asked whether there would be a chance of turn-around on asset sales. No says Key the country has given him a clear mandate to sell assets. Lie, lie ,lie lie………………….
    Fact, the majority of NZers did NOT vote National ! Condolences to all who voted National too, as the majority will be shafted for the few again.

    Put a purple ribbon on a pretender Christian skunk in Ohariu and a yellow ribbon on a slimy blind mole rat in Epsom and the vote would be just the same! SHAME on NZ

    • johnm 32.1

      100% right!

    • johnm 32.2

      NZ is a right off: rubbish.

    • freedom 32.3

      Every poll done on Asset sales clearly showed overwelming opposition to the idea.
      One of the last polls before the Election had it at 73% against if memory serves.
      I can’t be arsed looking for it to be honest, same as the PM obviously.

      • Herodotus 32.3.1

        S59 was 85%+ in many polls and then there was the referendum, so this is not the 1st time the masses have been ignored. At least now it is even Labour 1 National 1
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_citizens-initiated_referendum,_2009
        I wonder if the Chch result was swayed by (either debate 1 or TV interview) Phil commented re reinsurance in Chch that if the Insurance coys did not come to the party them (The 6th Labour govt) would enter into talks. I wonder if those poor suffering in Chch had had enough of talk and want direct action. IMO it is obvious that there will be a govt backed insurance coy or underwritten bythe govt. If I am correct then why did not Phil/Labour notr just come out and formulate a policy for this. You vote red then we the govt will enable you to get on with your lifes. Not more talk.

        • KerryC 32.3.1.1

          The differernce being:
          1. S59 hasn’t cost the people of this country hundreds of millions, is morallly sound and has been implimented & applied correctly so as not to punish good parents.
          2.There has been no referendum to sell assets.
           

          • Colonial Viper 32.3.1.1.1

            NZers don’t like asset sales, but they aren’t willing to do anything to stop them.

            We’ve become a nation of sheeple, no wonder ShonKey is looking so chirpy.

  32. randal 33

    a very sad day for new zealand.
    voting for a gang of greedy fiscal idiots and wannabees is always new zealands downfall.
    so you get what you ask for and they have john keys and john banks.
    uggggggghhhhhhh.
    seliing down the assets is only the start.
    now come new new management contracts, screwing down the contractors and rising prices.
    the purchase price is always included in the cost of the product.
    nice work if you can get it.

  33. Jane 35

    To the person who was worried that David Clark of Dunedin North is a ‘dry’ a la David Caygill – he isn’t. His website should reassure you.

    • jebusbulitmyhotrod 35.1

      Word is you and he had a one night stand and he didn’t call you, as he said he would. The man is i) a drunk, ii) a cad, and iii) apparently not one of the gaggle. Sigh, wwjd?
      At least he isn’t a P dealer. (Hey Sprout, whatever happened…?)

      Not my real name. Sorry. I’m a regular and wanted this one seperate.

      • Jan 35.1.1

        I think it’s possible to abuse anonymity. Maybe I am missing something but you seem to have done just that with this unpleasant comment.

        [lprent: I always know what identities people are if they have posted before, and every new identity requires a moderator to pass them. I looked at this one and thought it is a valid point of view if not particularly nicely put. I can think of several ways to phrase the message more effectively and even more sarcastically without raising peoples ire at the delivery mechanism. The commentator doesn’t have a history of willfully jumping identities. I treated it as a training wheels exercise. ]

      • the sprout 35.1.2

        disappointing it wasn’t broken, but problems with a highly litigious target and procuring the evidence.
        what it really needs is questions raised under parliamentary privilege. it’ll happen.

  34. infused 36

    It’s this ‘I know better than the voter’ mentality that’s going to keep you in opposition.

    • fender 36.1

      ” I know better than the voter” that will keep you in opposition

      IMO the vast majority of contributors on this site certainly know alot more than the average voter.
      When every voter in the country takes as much interest in policy as people here do your arguement may hold water.

      I don’t keep a record of your contributions infused but I dont really have an off the top of my head recall of much in the way of constructive criticism coming from you. My immediate recall of your contributions tend to be of the stone-throwing and cheap shot variety.

    • Ianupnorth 36.2

      I’d argue that 75% of the electorate are quite simply ignorant and naive of what is about to happen, and to the level of debt that Key et al have already burdened us with, with very little to show for it.

    • Puddleglum 36.3

      It’s this ‘I know better than the voter’ mentality that’s going to keep you in opposition.

      What?

      Most (if not all) of the commenters on this site appear to be voters. Each individual voter has their own view. Voters disagree with each other radically. That is, ‘I know better than the (other) voter’ presumably applies to every voter.

      Your comment is confused. What on earth made you make it?

  35. indiana 37

    Labour said it would campaign on polices, but instead it got sucked into the tea tapes and other negative campaigns, even posting on Red Alert that it was not harmful to place stickers on National billboards. Labour also broke election signage rules trying to position themselves as above the law.

    Regarding polices:
    CGT – the people that voted for Winston, have property portfolios and don’t want to pay a death tax in stealth. Even though they knew he supports its, he would never have the power to push it through – strategic voting.
    GST of Fruit and Veg – NZ doesn’t need it and there was no evidence that it led to healthier eating.
    Welfare policy – giving more money to people to stay at home, that was just dumb. There was too much information out there showing how much NZ has become far too welfare dependent.
    Education – the war on National Standards was an epic fail; roll on league tables, performance pay for teachers and better information to parents to highlight where parents can contribute to improving a child’s learning.
    Employment – Nothing from Labour to reduce compliance cost and the stance in ACC was an example.

    Finally the Campaign Manager lost to Whale Oil – a bike race that should never have happened.

    • Colonial Viper 37.1

      lol

    • Vicky32 37.2

      Welfare policy – giving more money to people to stay at home, that was just dumb. There was too much information out there showing how much NZ has become far too welfare dependent.

      Oh, it’s the people like you who have shafted us all! Only in Zild-America does dumb = stupid, but bene bashers are all American in their flinty envious hearts. I wish you welfare dependence of your very own, because that’s the only thing that will ever teach a man like you. 🙁

  36. AnnaLiviaPlurabella 38

    David Parker could not stick a knife in a cushion let alone perform a competent political assasination. His task was to stop Banks and ACT: he failed. Had he explicitely and publically shouted: “Hold your Nose, Party Vote Labour, Electorate Vote Goldsmith” he would have finished off Banks and ACT. Labour Green AND National people would have stopped Banks. David Parker? A “nice guy” but not a leader.

    • gingercrush 38.1

      Not really. You always get voters that effectively don’t listen. Part and parcel of a democracy really and can’t be helped. But honestly I think David Parker effectively did get Labour voters to vote Goldsmith.

      • Chess Player 38.1.1

        “You always get voters that effectively don’t listen”?

        Thank goodness for that

        Isn’t it the politicians who are meant to listen? and then voters get disappointed in them when they don’t – not the other way round surely….

      • ScottGN 38.1.2

        In the end it didn’t matter. It’s only one seat. Banks or Goldsmith? Who cares? Just another Tory. Epsom might have got all the attention but the rest of NZ effectively sent ACT to the scrapheap

        • Carol 38.1.2.1

          Yeah.. And now National is stuck with Banks…. surely more of an liability than a gain.

          On Waitakere, I thought it was interesting the way the results came in. It see-sawed between Sepuloni & Bennett, so that some booths/areas must have favoured one or other of the candidates.

          It would be interesting to see which ones voted more for each of the candidates, and which areas voted Green. Waitakere is a fairly diverse area.

        • Puddleglum 38.1.2.2

          ScottGN, I don’t think it’s quite like that.

          National got (roughly) 48% of the cast vote on election night. That figure determines how many seats they get. If they won Epsom they would still have had the same number of overall seats. With Banks’s win, there is effectively an extra seat for the right. National still get 48% of seats in Parliament, but ACT get one too.  

  37. I hope Phil Goff sticks around. This is my pledge if he does: http://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/post-mortem-2-phil-goff/

    • Michael 39.1

      Me to

    • RedLogix 39.2

      Frank. I find myself in complete agreement with you. And there’s a certain amount of humble pie in saying so. Goff exceeded everyone’s expectations…

      Personally I wouldn’t blame Phil Goff for stepping down as Leader. He’s had any amount of shite dumped on him this last three years and not a lot of reward for having sucked it up with his dignity intact.

      New Zealand has made a bad mistake yesterday. A lot of parallels with Muldoon’s rise to power and his subsequent dismantling of Kirk’s original Superannation scheme… the single worst act of political folly this country has ever seen.

      Yet the consequences didn’t become obvious to everyone until decades later.

      • KJT 39.2.1

        Except the first ACT Government would have given away the super scheme to the private sector anyway in 84.

        • lprent 39.2.1.1

          Unlikely. Douglas was one of the architects of the scheme..

          Douglas was an early and enthusiastic promoter of the government’s plans for a compulsory contributory superannuation scheme that would supplement the old age pension. In 1972, while still in opposition, he introduced a private member’s bill that provided for a form of compulsory superannuation. In Cabinet, Rowling, who was then Minister of Finance, and Douglas were largely responsible for a 1973 White Paper setting out the government’s proposals for superannuation. As well as augmenting individual provision for retirement, the scheme was intended to be a source of capital for investment in the domestic economy.[8] The scheme became law in the form of the New Zealand Superannuation Act 1974.
          Douglas was among the designers of the Dependent Minders’ Allowance, which was part of Labour’s platform in the 1975 election. Originally intended as a means of compensating women whose absence from the workforce reduced their superannuation contributions, the scheme offered a cash payment to women on the birth of their first and second children, or the first two children born after the election. It was immediately dubbed the “Baby Bonus” by Muldoon.[9]

        • RedLogix 39.2.1.2

          Well while we are having fun re-writing history, one could argue that if Kirk and Rowling had remained on the path they were on, and absent the catastrophic political polarisation and economic damage of the Muldoon years…..the conditions necessary for the first ACT govt would never have come about.

          And while I’m on the topic of Muldoon, funny how enormously popular he was, yet all through the 80’s and 90’s you could never find anyone who actually voted for the old bugger.

    • the sprout 39.3

      i agree, Goff should stay on but change his advisors.
      he did a great job during the campaign and the public are warming to him.
      oh, and this time he should start campaigning for 2014 on monday, not in 35 months.

      none of the other pretenders have a shit show of winning 2014.
      goff does.

    • ianmac 39.4

      And me too fm.

  38. AnnaLiviaPlurabella 40

    It is nice and positive to find upsides to the election. Yeah. WE WERE TROUNCED. Over the past 5 years we have lost our no 1 position among Trendy Lefties, Liberal Middle Class, Youth, 3rd Level Students, Environmentalists and Maori. I’m not sure we are are cutting 50% among Unionists. I suspect we will see more Ethnic groups feel that their bread might be better buttered by the Natz. We have lost our relevance, though we have many extremely relevant policies. No more variations on worn out slogans: We need to build a republic that will generate prosperity for all and not a few: There is a Kiwi Public waiting for a new Leader.

    • Colonial Viper 40.1

      Astroturfing RWNJ

      • AnnaLiviaPlurabella 40.1.1

        No my Dear Friend, Not a RWNJ. Just an Auckland Labour activist that worked bloody hard for a Labour Victory, that saw our Candidated Margin Increase and our lot of our Party Vote stay at home or go to the Greens. Being toooo fast on the defensive does not help us understand what our problem is. Nor does it help us work out the solution.

        • RedLogix 40.1.1.1

          I very much doubt that Labour needs a ‘new leader’. Phil Goff was trounced three year ago by a media that has undermined him at every possible opportunity. It was only when he was able to campaign in the media on more or less equal terms with Key that Goff was able to show everyone what he was capable of.

          It is the coporate media who have pushed the propaganda lie about Labour being no longer relevant…and a new leader would make no difference to that narrative.

          • Draco T Bastard 40.1.1.1.1

            I very much doubt that Labour needs a ‘new leader’.

            No, Phil has shown that he’s the man for the job. What he needs is better advisers and those advisers need a better connection to the populace.

            And the MSM needs their butt kicked for being NAct party sycophants.

        • Colonial Viper 40.1.1.2

          Ah my apologies.

          I agree with you that the world has changed and that the neoliberals who have done the changing understand the new world better than Labour does.

    • lprent 40.2

      CV: He isn’t.

      ALP: Some better party organisation would help as well. You know how bloody hard it is to get any change through the sclerotic machinery of the party.

      I don’t have time to push through thickets of people convincing them that something is a good idea. I just want to demonstrate it and if it works then it gets spread to other people who can use it. There is a reason why in a sea of blue party vote in the isthmus Mt Albert and Mt Roskill remain red and that is because both concentrate on the electioneering machinery and how to enhance it. 

      Instead we get a new electioneering system that essentially puts systems from 20 years ago on the web. A glorified red-dot system that is so dumb that the only people it’d surprise would be the Nats.

      Frankly I have pretty well just given up the effort of shifting the party as being pointless. I don’t have the time or the inclination to be bothered selling decades old dispersed customer service techniques to people. It is faster and simpler to just do new tasks outside the party and to a wider audience. After all then it is possible to make relevant decisions, try them out, and spread ideas far more rapidly through personal contacts.

      This site is one of them. We run it without any significant structure apart from minimal shared objectives and a willingness to tolerate other authors foibles. There is an artform to running a dispersed organisation, and Labour hasn’t figured out that they have a problem even understanding the issues yet.

      The excessive centralisation in Wellington and stupid dependence on parliamentary services is just a long term disaster waiting to happen. So is the withering of local party networks because they haven’t moved to virtual systems. Old people aren’t that techno phobic – just give them a grandkid on the other side of the world and you’ll find out how fast they can learn to use skype.

      I’m for the formation of the guerrilla Labour party between activists. At least it’d be more fun.

    • neoleftie 40.3

      well said – time to find some meaningful resoance with the public.
      Labour after all is a ‘catch all’ party and we need to realign and catch all of the voting public.

  39. red blooded 41

    Hey, let’s remember that all these people are voters, too. Our society needs passionate activists, who are willing to commit their time trying to argue out the issues that they think are important. Are you saying that there are no such discussions on the right-wing side of politics? Of course there are! And as for the ‘keep you in opposition’ line – let’s get real. NZ tends to give one side of the political spectrum a turn, then the other side. The Right will not be ensconced in power forever. What people here are trying to do is to find ways of limiting the damage they can do to the fabric of our society while they ARE in government, and strategise so that the Left is in good shape and has a clear sense of direction when it gets the chance to step up to government again. That chance will come; it’s just a matter of when.

    Personally, I think Labour ran a reasonable campaign, but a 4 week campaign is not enough to turn around a 3 year love affair, and while we might rail against the media, the fact is that image wins the day, to a very large extent. That’s just a truth. It doesn’t have to be the only truth, but it does have to be a strong consideration. I’d like to see a stronger face for women in the party again, and I know there are some great individuals available. A stronger roles for the version of the Young Labour folk would also add energy. Key made a point of his fresh-faced ”Key People” following him around, and it worked. I thought they looked gormless, but I’ve heard commentary about rejuvenation.

    • Colonial Viper 41.1

      I thought they looked gormless, but I’ve heard commentary about rejuvenation.

      National’s idea of ‘rejuvenation’ is resurrecting the neoliberal undead like Banks and Brash.

  40. johnm 42

    What a T*sser place this sh*t s*cking hole is! Totally Pathetic.

    • The Voice of Reason 42.1

      Johnm looks deep into his soul and doesn’t like what he finds …

      • Vicky32 42.1.1

        Johnm looks deep into his soul and doesn’t like what he finds …

        You can sneer, but he’s not wrong if he was referring to NZ! I am so sad and angry. I’d leave if I could, but that ship’s sailed… and my son is going now, off to Ireland to work, thanks to NACT and the scum-sucking Greens…

        • RedLogix 42.1.1.1

          Yes, for the first time in my life that same thought went through my head last night as it did for you. But that ship has sailed for me too…

          The amount of young talent leaving this country is appalling. The numbers alone don’t tell the story; it’s our kids in their 20’s, the ones we brought up in our homes,schools, sports clubs, scouts and the like, taught them to love and respect this extraordinary little country, educated and trained them, they were meant to be OUR future as a nation, as a culture… but they are going.

          And frankly while immigrants to this country are all well and good; they bring their own story with them and it’s not always one we would have chosen for ourselves.

          • Vicky32 42.1.1.1.1

            Exactly right! I never thought my son would go, he’s among the better off here, as he’s a professional and his profession is in demand – but he’s actually said in so many words that he’ll be off… My father left England in 1948, at 30 years old, and despite his best intentions, never returned. I hope Leon won’t be like that! 🙁

            • Ianupnorth 42.1.1.1.1.1

              Haven’t looked at the jobs in Aussie section of Seek, but have been busy doing other things today. As a member of the public sector I might have a redundancy cheque in a few weeks that should cover the removal costs.

  41. Uturn 43

    You might think it’s a “we know better” attitude, but it’s really “we consider a wider perspective” mixed with the angry frustration that comes with the small minded constantly chanting that “the economy” is all there is to life.

    To cut a long story short, to believe the promises of the centre right or beyond, you have to have stopped questioning the apparent contradictions of modern life, the uneasy feelings you once had or be so comfortable you don’t feel a thing. It’s possible some are projecting personal emotional issues or supporting psychological problems. After that, the excuses become reasons: a defender of ignorance, maliciousness or evil.

    But the bottom line is that if it has to “get worse before it gets better”, that the poor need to be told to harden up, what you’re effectively saying is that the children dying now in poverty have no worth past their potential future financial contribution to the state. If you genuinely believe that, you are either ignorant or evil, because if you want to dispute it, you have to explore and dismiss a multitude of ideas that supercede those medieval conclusions. Whose kids will you choose to die today while you stuff your face with another unneeded sugary treat?

    So what’s the solution? Sterilise the parents? Outlaw the poor? Same problem: all able to be proven immoral.

    Create a new society that allows people to participate so no one falls below the bread line? No you don’t want that either. Your slogans of “working hard” are worthless vapour. People work hard now and go backwards and you want their wages to drop further. All you’re concerned about is what is yours, your money, being stolen to feed the poor, while you get obese and drunk and complain about rising crime from the underclasses. Why don’t they just starve in silence you wonder. Elevate your self abuse and gluttony, then call anyone who questions you envious. Yeah, it’s not envy, eh.

    What your ignorant slogans conceal from you is that the Left isn’t all about taxing you for no reason, or throttling back your excess. You want to be a fat bastard hauling in $1mil plus a year? Go for it, but not before every child in NZ is fed and clothed and healthy so they can join your souless grind machine when they come of age.

    If you don’t give a damn about the man next to you, if you want children dead, just admit it, because it’s clear to the rest of us. You cannot be Right wing and morally right. Think on that the next 3 years while it gets so bad that finally no one will admit voting centre right this election.

    It’s all very well to theoretically respect alternative opinions, but there’s a point where they become so destructive once you see them in action that I’m incapable of respecting them. I know they exist and that’s as far as I can go.

    • pollywog 43.1

      ^^^you need to be blogging that shit yourself so it doesnt get lost in the background noise.

    • Draco T Bastard 43.2

      +1

      especially this bit:

      You cannot be Right wing and morally right.

      When everything becomes about money, about how rich you are and you’re letting children die because of it you have lost all the morals you ever had.

      • LynW 43.2.1

        +2 Abuse of power and lack of moral responsibility and empathy is so destructive to our society. It takes a village to raise a child. Unfortunately many are in their castles declining to connect with the ‘deserving’ poor or sadder still are struggling to work their way out of the village blaming themselves and each other for their situation.

  42. Michael 44

    Let’s give communism another chance

    • [Is it a nice day where you are dad? Why not take a walk outside for a while, get some fresh air. — r0b]

    • Colonial Viper 44.2

      I’m all good for democratic socialism. An economy constucted of democratically owned and operated worker enterprises and customer based mutual organisations. Some for profit, some not for profit. All of which look after a much wider constituency than just the workers, but the communities within which they are based.

      Where do I sign up.

    • Carol 45.1

      Well done to the Green Party. They fought a pretty good campaign and it’s good to see some of the new MPs on their list.

      However, some of us who voted Green are getting a little edgey about the party leaders considering another MoU with National. There’s too much at stake for such incrementalism and crumbs from the big table, which will ultimately support National’s agenda. The Green Party MPs need to stand on the principles and be a strong opposition to what National is planning this term. If not, there’s quite a few who will never vote for them again.

      Quite a few left people backed off voting Green in the end because they feared this kind of sell-out.

      Some did feel that in contrast, Peters would put up a very strong opposition to National and its asset sales agenda.

      I was trusting the Greens to stand staunch for the strugglers, and the poor and against the whole neoliberal, resource and environmental destruction that will accompany attacks on the least well off.

      • Colonial Viper 45.1.1

        Unfortunately the Greens leadership has probably learnt that the worthwhile votes to chase are the middle class and upper middle class ones. And that there are no votes from the working class and underclass to be had, especially if they do not vote.

        The Greenwash Party, in other words.

        • RedLogix 45.1.1.1

          Sorry but the Greens tried the ‘fringe anti-party out to the left of Labour’ schtick and look how that worked out.

          I’m on record as a member of the Greens AND a financial donor to Labour. While they are two quite different Parties I don’t find any conflict in that. I don’t expect any one Party to represent all my values and opinions, so it’s not too much of a stretch to wrap my head around two that are both fundamentally left-wing.

          At the end of the day what counts is getting policy implemented. If the Greens can get that achieved by making the right deals then so be it. However that feels.

      • redvoter 45.1.2

        I agree with all that you say Carol. I didn’t vote Green because I doubted they would fight for what is really important- keeping state assets in public ownership. Because once the hydroelectricity is under overseas control we have lost the chance to make an easy, affordable transition to a green, renewable energy based economy. I don’t know how these people in the Greens can let the assets go without a fight and still call themselves Green.

        After the next oil shock- not too far away IMO- people are going to be slaughtered by both the cost of oil and the cost of electricity. And with too many people not able to correlate cause and effect they will complain bitterly about what is happening to them without realising they voted for this misery. And we all get to suffer because of their dumb, thoughtless voting decisions.

        Still can’t believe that nearly 50% of the population- stupid f****** idiots- voted this government back in.

        • seeker 45.1.2.1

          “Still can’t believe that nearly 50% of the population- stupid f****** idiots- voted this government back in.”

          Quite……Stunning isn’t it………..?

          • KerryC 45.1.2.1.1

            The F**ing incredibly stupid & ignorant ones were the people who didn’t vote.

            Pathetic

          • Roy 45.1.2.1.2

            I was in the US when GWB got his second term. I was incredulous that so many people still liked the phony smirker. I feel the same way now.

      • felix 45.1.3

        There’s too much at stake for such incrementalism and crumbs from the big table, which will ultimately support National’s agenda.”

        Exactly Carol, this is precisely why I have always been critical of the Greens playing mummies and daddies with National via their MoU: because even while achieving a little good here and there, it ultimately supports National’s agenda.

        There is this erroneous erroneous belief held by some in the Greens – apparently including the current leadership – that the only way to give tangible support to a government is through a formal coalition covering confidence and supply, and that therefore any other arrangement they make is politically neutral and leaves their hands clean.

        So naive. What the Green/National alliance does is lend legitimacy to the National govt. It sends a message that National are so fair, so reasonable, so cool to be with that – look! – even the Greens want to hang out with them!

        This is PR so good you couldn’t buy it. And if you find this interpretation difficult to accept, please ask yourself this simple question: What do National get out of this deal? They’re not that stupid. They’re not doing it ‘cos they believe in any of the Greens’ policies, and if they did, they could just implement them anyway without the formal public ceremony of marriage.

        Sad as it seems, the Greens are speaking out of both sides of their mouth. They rail against neoliberalism, poverty, and inequality, all the while propping up the image of National and promoting the idea that John Key is good for New Zealand.

        And that’s why I lapsed my membership in 2009, and that’s why I can’t vote for them.

  43. M Schwartz 46

    ***So what’s the solution? Sterilise the parents? Outlaw the poor***

    Making contraception a condition of welfare or having a 2 child rule would be a good start.

    • Colonial Viper 46.1

      Yes and any who dare have a third child, that third child will be taken from them and put into forced labour camps in order to make monetary reparations to the state.

    • Vicky32 46.2

      ***So what’s the solution? Sterilise the parents? Outlaw the poor***
      Making contraception a condition of welfare or having a 2 child rule would be a good start.

      You cannot be serious! Obviously you believe that every one on “welfare” is a dope-smoking tattooed parent of 8 who has a baby every year in order to claim more money. I suggest compulsory contraception for everyone making $75 000 a year, as they use more resources than the poor… Your comment?

  44. neoleftie 47

    well the election came and went…so did the hope for the nation.
    Now the safest labour seat in the country ( dunedin south ) we got smashed in the party vote, sure voter turn out was low and the centre and centre left vote were simply not aligned with the party at all…the moving centre moved again and left the left shifting labour party nothing but the rump core to play with…
    Goff was credible and showed some passion and spine but there is still a lack of understanding of the electorate and its voting matrix maekup.
    Where was the push for the party vote, where was the vision, the key message that would have captured the broading centre voter. ( single or double dip centre )
    lession one: electroral vote capture doesnt equate to party vote.
    lesson two: everything is about perception, image and message not simply policy any more.
    lession three: time for labour to recognise its grassroots and reorganise to re-engage the electorate in the long term. power to the people.

    leadership change – parker / robertson H3 combo isnt going to work due to:
    1) the broad centre are weary of any leftover from H1 days.
    2) the broad centre are weary of self interest from the catch all labour party and its factions.

    Labour party must, in a ‘slight of hand’ hide its handful of factions and reinvent itself along lines that dont resonant with rainbow, feminist or unionist – the golden years of social engineering are gone and frankly done. Sure labour is a catch all party and the factions are necessary as power bases but labour is bigger than its individual factions. The public deserve better, they demand better and must, for the sake of NZ, get a better Labour party.

    Labour must present itself to the electrorate in terms that the electrorate can identify and strikes meaningful resonance with so labour can capture a more broadened and stable voter block.
    Labour MP and the LOC power structures must reengage the marginalised voter and not just the safe vote, identify the swing, the switch, the small identifying groups in the elctrorate and spend the next decade engaging the public with meaningful dialogue.

    We pushed fairness for all and then raised the retirement age
    We promote equality for all but push the percieved barrow of favouritism of small self interest groups.
    Our core policy plank of NO ASSET SALES was an positive voter identifier but other factors outweigh or overcome it…wave and smile won on trust and trust alone…a perception that things would be better under National.

    I have a huge amount of friends who still believe that it was english in the 90’s who paid down govt debt levels and not Cullen – amazing.

    Well we have another three years where we must strive to align ourselves with the extremely wide and shifting centre block vote or do we rely on the rump 25-30% labour supporters and that is it for labour as we face a rampant and successful party green who will slowly capture the left, the centre and even the light blue-green voter.

    Well i cry – Who is going to step up and shape a New and vibrant Labour party from the shadow of H1.
    p.s the legacy of H1 – H3 needs to be hidden…smoke and mirrors and more smoke.

    • just saying 47.1

      Question: Are you suggesting they hide the white middle class het male “faction” here?
      I’m guessing not.

      • neoleftie 47.1.1

        The whole point is dont marginalised a massive part of the nonaligned voting public by pushing ideoligical barrows that has no resonance with the vote block we need to capture.
        A voter votes based on a wide range of identifiers and influencers and not so narrow a classification as class or white male….
        The point is Labour lost the battle yesterday and is losing the war slowly but surely.

        • Carol 47.1.1.1

          It was the right that has used the much needed gains for women, gays etc, as a wedge of bigotry to attack the Labour government.

          Are you suggesting that some of us must now go back and ride at the back of the bus, and not speak out against any bigotry, oppression or unfairness?

          The left should and could be bigger than that, be open to diversity and a range of issues.

          The National government and their fawning MSM are already shutting out women, issues important for many of them/us, and various forms of diversity, along with their attacks on beneficiaries, single parents, the working poor etc.

          Look at the TV coverage of the elections last nights…. panels dominated by middleclass men wherever you tuned in.

          I’m looking for a left movement that is a broad church, works for the people struggling to get by, and supports a range of diverse people, communities and issues, doesn’t marginalise any, especially the already marginalised…… and for a leader or leaders who can galvanise such a broad movement with some unifying themes and issues.

          • chris73 47.1.1.1.1

            I agree with much of what neo says, at the moment I don’t vote labour because they don’t represent me (me as a white, lower-middle class working male thats married with no kids) they say they do but their actions speak louder then their words.

            National, of course, doesn’t speak for me either but when it comes to two parties that don’t represent me I’ll go with the party that has the more likeable/charasmatic leader.

            Maybe Labour could leave the special interest groups to the Greens and concentrate on reclaiming the low to middle working class (I’m guessing thats a huge voting block) vote instead of trying to please everybody.

            I mean theres probably a good reason why O’Conner did so well, maybe its time for labour to reclaim its roots.

            • NickS 47.1.1.1.1.1

              /facepalm

              And here we have the perfect example of a complete inability to think farther than one’s self and recognise all the myriad dudely privileges you get from being white het male, and how those lack of the same privileges disadvantage all of society by excluding a significant percentage from fully contributing. And why progressive parties are actually meant to pay attention to shit like the above, instead of just ignoring them in order to supplicate the ignorant white dude vote.

            • Chess Player 47.1.1.1.1.2

              Labour sold out on its roots 25 years ago – what you saw on Saturday was the old guard being told that yet again as they clearly just don’t get it

              In the meantime the hard left went first to Alliance/Greens then now on to Maori and Mana

              What you have got left in Labour then is a loose group of specialist interest groups that were successful in getting some progress along the way, but when it comes down to difficult economic times in which there can be no luxuries, there is no air-time for them

              It’s a bit late for Labour to start reclaiming their roots – I’d say the plant has been uprooted and replanted elsewhere already

              • Draco T Bastard

                In the meantime the hard left went first to Alliance/Greens then now on to Maori and Mana

                A lot of the hard left don’t seem to be voting at all.

                It’s a bit late for Labour to start reclaiming their roots

                Labour is centre-right and will be for the foreseeable future.

          • neoleftie 47.1.1.1.2

            exactly carol but the church needs to be big enough to hold all and not be protrayed as dominated by a few…power to the people and not just the few…shit are we the tories or are we labour.
            Everything is about perception, actualalities count for little if there is no resonance with the masses.

            • Carol 47.1.1.1.2.1

              Well, I do agree that Labour (and now the Greens) need to focus more on those struggling to survive in a harsh and destructive economic environment, and stop pandering so much to the middleclasses. But I think the notion that labour has significantly pandered to a few “minorities” comes from a beat-up by the right, and attempt at wedge politics, and also stirred up by the media.

              I don’t really think gays, unionists etc have dominated the party. Look at the leader, deputy leader, and many of the key ministers.

              • neoleftie

                yes yes but the whole game is perception of labour to the majority of voters…their perception is everything that counts. another point is that labour alienates itself from the centre by pushing the ideoligical barrow of champion of the underclass ( who dont vote generally ). the tories give more to the rich is mirrored by labours give more to the poor…labour by definition already is about a helping ‘hand up’ so why push it – it simple costs too many votes.
                Why not more broad terms pushed like fairness, equality, justice, wealth creation for all and less on policy…its brand labour in the long term not these self centred feel good policy creations that misalign too many potential labour voters.

        • NickS 47.1.1.2

          Because it’s progressive you idiot, but then again dude-bro’s have always had trouble with the notion that minorities, no matter the sex, sexuality or other flavourings, are human beings as well.

    • pollywog 47.2

      Well i cry – Who is going to step up and shape a New and vibrant Labour party from the shadow of H1.

      KRIS FAAFOI !!!

  45. One of the first steps to recovery is to ditch the left versus right, us versus them, us good-them bad obsessions. Most people are closer to centre than to either polarity, and most detest negative attack politics.

    • kriswgtn 48.1

      “and most detest negative attack politics””

      you spent the last how long doing exactly that

      you bagged the left

      if it hadnt been for key, wiggy wouldnt have got back in

      so how many people voted for YOU in dunners m8? i mean as in candidate vote?

    • neoleftie 48.2

      after the 2008 defeat i was employed by the labour party / parliamentary services to study the electroral voting pattern of dunedin south. it gave insight what we call the centre vote is extremely large and the traditional left and its aligned natural factions are being eroded by a gradual societal shift to the right due the imposed construct and captured dialogue of the tories.

      The whole point labour is not simply its factions but a catch all party – a broad church that at its base values people over any other artifical societal contruct.i.e environment or business.
      We need to realign Labour and examine exactly what Labour is and stand for – people’s party.

    • sodapaper 48.3

      isn’t that where the Greens are in that political land that ‘neither left nor right but out in front’ or some such?

      • Chess Player 48.3.1

        Greens are most definitely still Left – not saying that’s good or bad…

        They ditched the hardcore activists (by not letting Sue Bradford be leader) and started wearing suits, but even Mao used to wear a suit if I remember correctly…

        When you strip it back, they have no idea about how to create even one job unless it’s funded by govt money and that’s the real problem in them ever being a leading party, because at the end of the day Joe Average needs a job

        To be the Lead party and not just a bit-player you have to confront the Economics arguments and when you have a leader that used to be in McGillicuddy Serious party (as opposed to having done some thing useful like building a successful enterprise in clean tech) you will never reach the next level of credibility

    • KJT 48.4

      Bullshit. When people are asked about policies without being told where they originated they prefer Green ones.

      Notice National deliberately avoided mentioning policy as much as possible.

      Of course as Lincoln said. “If voting made any difference it would be abolished”.

      Like it has been in Greece.

    • RedLogix 48.5

      Most people are closer to centre than to either polarity, and most detest negative attack politics.

      err.. what you mean is that you want for the Opposition to give the Govt a free ride. (And certainly that’s what the media have been doing…)

      • Pete George 48.5.1

        Not at all. Robust debate and examination of policies is important. But that’s a lot different to nastiness and bullshit.

        I don’t see Peters improving things at all.

        • KJT 48.5.1.1

          OK. If we want to get rid of nastiness, meanness and bullshit, why did everyone vote for Key.

          Almost the stereotype of the executive who has not read anything but how to get rich quick books.

          I hope those who voted for him enjoy their job loses, bankruptcies and pay cuts.

          Nationals brighter future. In Australia!

        • mik e 48.5.1.2

          peters will hog the limelight that key has dominated

      • Carol 48.5.2

        Most people are closer to centre than to either polarity, and most detest negative attack politics.

        And yet National, including Key spent a lot of the last 3 years, including the election campaign, attacking Goff and his policies…

        I guess it’s not negative politics when Smile and Wave does it?

        • Pete George 48.5.2.1

          It’s negative when anyone does it. Obviously.

          • dad4justice 48.5.2.1.1

            Oh shut up pathetic petey, your sit on the fence don’t offend anybody attitude is utter spinless crap and you should stick to writing meaningless rhetoric with your kiwiblog prototype robotic arm.

          • wtl 48.5.2.1.2

            No comment about your own constantly negative comments regarding Goff/Peters in the dying stages of the campaign then?

          • KJT 48.5.2.1.3

            Why is it negative to tell the truth. National is going to lead us down the same drainhole as Greece, USA, UK, Ireland and now Italy.

            If there was any justice Key would be in jail for what he has already done to NZ.

            • sodapaper 48.5.2.1.3.1

              would that be in a private or public prison

            • Draco T Bastard 48.5.2.1.3.2

              Why is it negative to tell the truth.

              It’s not. People only say that the truth is negative when it highlights them in some way that they don’t want shown.

              National is going to lead us down the same drainhole as Greece, USA, UK, Ireland and now Italy.

              And don’t forget UF holding Nationals coat tails while they do it.

  46. kriswgtn 49

    but hey Labour won the coast back so suk that one Key
    ,the birth of the Labour movement

  47. John 50

    we was robbed by epsom and the cult of dunne, an irishman that we disclaim.

    the anti-national vote was strong. john key has no statistical majority, in mmp world he is a minority.

  48. swanstep 51

    Labour’s failure in this election was inevitable.

    The Nats are painfully centrist/Labour-light (bizarre mischaracterizations of them as hard-right from the likes of the Standard notwithstanding), and the Greens have moved to the center. Being pressed on two sides like that leaves only a sliver of center-left voters for Labour. It honestly didn’t matter what negative points Labour tried to make, there weren’t ever enough people left whose ideal points were closest to where Labour stood than some other credible parties were. Far from being an election decided on the basis of personalities or trivialities, this was as pure a median voter model election as you could ever hope to see, with NZF the principal anomaly, and with Labour actually exceeding what could reasonably be expected of them.

    • Colonial Viper 51.1

      John Key, smile and wave, the media spectacle, the Teller of the Teapot Tales.

    • mik e 51.2

      With a 66% only voter turn out the left block did very well ,Key really only managed to get 30% of registered voters to vote for him so what sort of mandate is that!
      Labour and the left block need to build the grass roots again!
      Numbers and small donations and proactive policy outside parliament like rebuilding the union movement through community help which will be needed with the right wing policy that will damage the bottom 66% of people that will be worse off under National!

    • KJT 51.3

      People thinking that National is in the centre shows how far to the hard right the dialogue has shifted.

      I even heard an executive claiming Key was socialist the other day??

  49. John 52

    The lure of money = national party vote- personal self interest uber alles- the pakeha put national in, holding on to a white middleclass built on outrageous banking and an afrikaner work ethic. the nationAl party is an archiac party of pakeha imperalism.

  50. Bob 53

    A bunch of paranoid, deluded conspiracy theorists, that’s what we have here.
    John Key has led an extremely moderate, centerist government; we still have Working For Families, interest free student loans, Kiwisaver, no cuts to benefits at all, no asset sales in first term.
    In other words, all the Labour largesse that was doled out to in bribes while Labour did very little to help the people they profess to represent. 9 years of surpluses and good times, no GFC, and what did they really do to combat child poverty? My personal view is that the Labour govt became an exercise in prepetuating power for it’s own sake. Buying back the railways at twice what the were worth while singing songs about National swallowing ‘dead rats’ just shows how bewilderingly out of touch you were and still are. You may understand yourselves but no-one else understands you, but I think it’s got something to do with being smart-arses pursuing a class-war fantasy. The arrogance whan 300,000 Kiwi’s left for Australia, and Michael Cullen said “good riddance”. Because social engineering was happening and the socialist state of NZ was being built, so it was fine. And yet Labour tries to hold John Key to account when people are leaving now! The breath-taking hypocrisy.
    The asset sales that will proceed are a 49% stake in a few power companies – with the govt keeping the controlling stake. NZ Post won’t be sold, Kiwibank won’t be sold, Kiwirail won’t be sold, Ontrack won’t be sold, Landcorp won’t be sold, Metservice won’t be sold, Kordia won’t be sold, Radio NZ won’t be sold, TVNZ won’t be sold, etc.
    The language used about John Key and the National Party, and about National Party voters….it does put we in mind of the anti-jewish hysteria used by the Nazi’s in there rise to power – particularly a lot of the conspiracy theories about John Key and international & banking connections. If these comments – and comments that I have read here seeming to advocate the assasination of John Key – see also the recent socialist art depicting a murdered John Key entitled ‘Key Crimes’ – are indicative of the core of Labour’s supporters then I say you are hysterical, dangerous, disrespectful of other people to your core.
    The people you attack as ‘selfish’ and ‘rich pricks’…..in reality it’s anyone who has a job at all, and lives their lives with personal responsibilty and in a law abiding manner, paying rates and taxes for the benefit of all, and very often giving to charity as well. And you you despise and hate us, while claiming moral superiority and engaging in a phoney ‘class war’ scenario that just does not exist. You attack the worst excesses of capitalism, and fairly so, but you also give succor to long term beneficiaries of state largesse who lose their human dignity, and when their circumstances become so appalling dire and barbaric, you turn on them, cut them off and call them rogue ‘ferals’, as Helen Clark did. And so the champions of state intervention refuse to allow state intervention in returning people to the dignity of work who so desperately need to do so.
    You are not the party of work and working people. Workers and working people are farmers, small business people accountants, factory workers, police…you don’t represent these people anymore. You can’t despise people and then expect them to vote for you. You represent the public service, the trade unions, long term beneficiaries, ivory tower socialist intellectuals, left wing political aspirants….and very little else. It is obvious virtually the whole of NZ see’s Labour as a party of Auckland – largely based on a South Auckland power base voting out of tradition, although Maori and Pacific Island peoples are becoming more aspirational and are moving away from Labour’s depressingly redundant philosophies.You have lost virtually the whole country in your arrogance. Your patronising and condescending – and often agressive and spiteful – attitude towards decent, hard-working NZers has got you in this mess, and you only have yourselves to blame.

    • KJT 53.1

      “Workers and working people are farmers, small business people accountants, factory workers, police”…

      Doubtful if accountants are working people.

      FYI. Teachers, Doctors, Police are all State servants.

      I am one of the working people you talk about above, maybe even verging on rich territory and I know that National is not for us.

      They are for putting us out of business and selling out to big offshore corporates.

      Those who spend their money in New Zealand are our customers.

      I wonder how long it will take you to realise that you do not really want to live in Nationals mean, dysfunctional and small minded society.

      Decent hard working New Zealanders would have never voted for Key if he had been honest about his plans to turn New Zealand into a low wage third world country so he could get richer.

      • Bob 53.1.1

        An accountant works – I know blue-collar workers are ‘workers’ by your socialist definition so that may be where you are making a distinction. A policeman works and is a state employee…and is essential. The public service has but one ambition and purpose: to grow. Yiu know it and I know it.

        Nothings changed in the workplace that I can see between when Labour had power and now. Please enlighten me as to the changes that you’ve noticed at your place of work. Seriously.

        A mean, dysfunctional and small minded society: that’s how I would describe the Labour party and it’s supporters. Trying to make us all believe we live in Franco’s Spain when we have none of Labour’s add-on’s to the welfare state – add-on’s which now include middle class welfare – dismantled at all. The people of NZ are extremely generous. We provide a safety net in difficult times.

        Your gloomy picture of a damaged (by National) society is totally at odds with the sense of community we have seen in Christcurch since the earthquakes and the out-pouring of sympathy and solidarity shown by all NZers towards Cantabrians. They disprove totally your shambolic assertions. These people are living in abject conditions in many areas, but they will fight back, pick themselves up by the bootstraps, and rebuild. I see they’ve cast off Labour – well done proud Christchurch – and your negative and nihlistic mind-set of attacking the (flawed) system we (none-the-less) live under while expecting others to earn the foreign exchange (endlessly preferable to debt) that keeps this nation afloat, and provide an endless teat of state largesse to those who have zero interest in working.

        You are vampires. You suck the life-blood of hard-working and decent law abiding people.

        • KJT 53.1.1.1

          Fuck off.

          I am one of the hard-working and decent law abiding people.

          I earn plenty of foreign exchange, work hard and pay taxes. I suspect a lot more than wannabees like you.

          Key sucked millions off New Zealands life blood burgling our currency.

          Now he is going to give away more to his bludging mates.

          Stop taking credit for a welfare State your mates want to destroy.

          Go to Somalia. Nationals ideal State.

          National has fucked up totally in Christchurch.
          Too scared to even tell their cronies in the insurance companies to front up.

          The vote for Brownlee shows how effective Nationals bought and paid for media has been.

          • Bob 53.1.1.1.1

            Calm down. I won’t be going to Somalia. No one has burgled our economy anymore now than what happened under Labour. It is your fantasy that NZ under Labour was Camelot. It is not true. You are angry and confused. The party which most of assets was Labour, and it wasn’t mixed ownership and a controlling stake. Yes, you’re not that Labour anymore, you’re the ultra-left Labour of Helen Clark. There were no corporations doing well in NZ doing 9 years of Labour rule, there was no mass-bribing of the middle-class vote. And the poor were seen to sing and dance on everyn street corner, and there was much rejoicing throughout the land. Bullshit.
            If you are truly rich (or borderline wealthy), do as Jesus Christ – the original socialist – said, and give everything to the poor. I am not a follower of Christ – (but I do sympathise) – and you will not give your material wealth to the poor. But you will rail against John Key and demonise him and project your anger and frustration at your essential powerlessness onto him.
            You’ll still drive your car to work and burn fossil fuels like all the others, but you are so much better than the demon Key. We all have our scapegoats and he’s yours.

            • McFlock 53.1.1.1.1.1

              Nice drugs, bob?
               
              go fuck yourself.
               
              Look at NZ vs oecd, by year of government. See who’s the better economic managers.

            • Colonial Viper 53.1.1.1.1.2

              There were no corporations doing well in NZ doing 9 years of Labour rule

              Did you miss Telecom, Contact, BNZ, ANZ, Westpac, etc sending off billions of profits offshore over that time?

              Or are you just a fuck head?

            • Akldnut 53.1.1.1.1.3

              “Nothings changed in the workplace that I can see between when Labour had power and now.” – (I currently have 4 customers and 2 daughters that have been fired under the 90 day Fire at Will Bill)
              I worked and managed a business of 1 truck and 3 employees that barely grew under Bolger & Shipley then blossomed under Clarke to to 100+ vehicles and 280+ staff with banks lining up to throw money at us.
              “You are vampires. You suck the life-blood of hard-working and decent law abiding people.” – (I currently donate over $80 dollars a week to worthy causes – 4 kids with World Vision & Save the Maui Dolphin to name a couple)
               
              Bub RWNJs who often pop in here and certain media commentators on  Newstalk ZB say this sort of crap often – you are idiots whose greed and lack of social and moral conscience show that you really don’t know too much about the left or our reasons for being here?

            • KJT 53.1.1.1.1.4

              Yet another turd drops out from the sewer to give us the benefit of his wisdom.

              From the alternative universe where countries that followed the cut taxes, cut wages and dump the poor, so useless non-productive gits in banking and other parasite occupations could steal more, are magically doing well.

              Kiwibog, where all the other idiots, and authoritarian followers, hang out is your natural home.

              All of you that want our country to be like Somalia should piss off there. Your ideal place. No benefits, no taxes.

              Fuck off. This is a place for grownups to talk.

        • Colonial Viper 53.1.1.2

          Hey Bob.

          Hear that sound? That’s the sweet sound of a dozen guillotine blades being sharpened for the top 1% of the top 1%.

          Your pseudo-historical nonsense doesn’t change the fact that the masses are on the march – or soon will be.

          A mean, dysfunctional and small minded society: that’s how I would describe the Labour party and it’s supporters.

          How ironic. It’s how I would describe the Business Roundtable and the EMA.

        • Vicky32 53.1.1.3

          An accountant works –

          Some accountants do…

           The people of NZ are extremely generous. We provide a safety net in difficult times.

          Generous? I don’t think so… Everyone I have heard on the subject recently bitterly begrudges providing that ‘safety net’. It seems to me that many of them are simply jealous of what they think is a cushy lifestyle. When my wealthy corporate ex was made surplus to requirements in the 1990s, he had the shock of his old life, discovering what benefit rates actually were!

          and provide an endless teat of state largesse to those who have zero interest in working.

          Your fantasy… what makes you want to believe it – that “generosity” you theorise exists?

          You are vampires. You suck the life-blood of hard-working and decent law abiding people.

          No, it is the Gnats who do that…

    • sodapaper 53.2

      Oh dear Bob did you really need to spread your hate around. Are you not all loved up on the euphoria of an ’emphatic win’. It is saddening to see that at 297 words we hit Godwin’s Law.

    • Afewknowtheturth 53.3

      Bob.

      Some of your comments about Labour have some validity.

      However, your assertion that the left consists of deluded conspiracy theorist will blow up in your face within months. That is 100% guaranteed.

      Everything Nationals says, does and stands for is about to go down the gurgler because it is all founded on fabrications and delusions. The lie about ‘building a better brighter future’ will be exposed before June of 2012, and possibly as early as February of 2012. We are living in apost peak oil world and the money scam is about to collpase. But the vast majority of NZers haven’t got a clue because Key has been the most successful confidence trickster/liar in recent NZ political history and the corporate media have played his game (largely being part of the same gang of thieves). The short term game has been to keep voters uninformed and deluded. The longer term game is to rob them while they are still in a daze. And your comment demonstrates how successful National have been at conning a large sector of NZ society and keeping NZers in a daze.

      ‘The Game Is About Done

      It’s pretty-much over at this point….

      This morning Germany had a failed Bund auction. That’s not particularly noteworthy; it happens from time to time.

      But what’s noteworthy is what happened to bond yields everywhere through Europe in response: They blew out.

      The Greek and Italian “problem” is no longer about Greece and Italy. It has been creeping into Spain and more-recently France, but this morning jumped into Germany and everywhere else “all at once.”

      Capital has said “no more” to the lies in Europe. While this does not mean an instant implosion it does mean one important thing: The willingness of capital holders to continue to permit deficit spending is coming to an end, and with it the false “GDP” that this lie has “supported” will also come to an end.

      Our lawmakers, for their part, continue to sing a happy song about how we’ll get it done — but not today, since the supercommittee was an abject failure. Covering up the failure was the fact that there were departments that had 10, 20 even 30% increases in the funding found in the appropriateions bills that were passed in the House even while the “committee” was trying to find a way to “cut” spending.

      Folks, this political game of lie, lie and lie some more cannot go on forever. Eventually the waiter appears with the check and you either pay it, wash dishes, or get arrested for theft. In the political world that “arrest” comes in the form of capital holders saying that they no longer believe you will ever pay and borrowing costs go up — way up.

      The Fed cannot “print” out of this and neither can the ECB. If either try that they will engender an all-on revolt, never mind that as purchasing power falls the fixed costs of staying alive go up relative to incomes and the war is lost anyway.

      Reality must eventually be faced. That day is here for Europe and it will soon be here in the US. We have permitted the lies and stealing — both indirectly and now, as we’ve seen, it appears directly through MF Global — to go on for too long.

      To those Seniors (and soon-to-be-Seniors) and others who say “but we were promised!” and “I vote damnit – you better give me what you said I’d get” respond: The till is empty and your check is going to bounce.

      Occupy Wall Street? Well sure, but while you’re at it, why aren’t the Seniors encircling the Capitol and refusing to leave? Why isn’t the underlying truth being discussed and why aren’t the jackals that led to this happening being forced from office and run out of town on a rail?

      I’ll tell you why: Because everyone thinks that they can manage to somehow “get theirs” while “someone else” will take the hit.

      I’m sorry to tell ou that it isn’t going to work out like that.

      There’s no point in continuing to play this game. MF Global showed us — you’re right, you hedge or you place your bet, you still lose your money! How many farmers, airlines, industrial producers and other legitimate entities using the market for risk management got screwed by that little game and why is it that Corzine is not in handcuffs? FINRA? What’s that — it appears Corzine didn’t have a valid (and required) securities license. Self-regulation not only failed so has any resemblance of actual law enforcement.

      The same game was run over in Europe with sovereign CDS. You hedge, you bet right, the ISDA declares that you were “voluntarily” exchanging your bonds and the hedges you bought were worthless. Your “exchange” was as voluntary as is handing over your wallet when there’s a gun up your nose, but that doesn’t matter — the word “is” can be redefined any time the people in charge want, and they want.

      Your money, that is.

      It will not be long ladies and gentlemen, when the bulk of the folks running the algorithms deduce that they’re exposed to the same risks – they have to post margin too, you know, and if it can be stolen then their capital isn’t safe either. These deposits aren’t supposed to be “at risk” when there’s no position actively open — that’s a performance bond against possible failure to pay, but is supposed to be exactly as safe as a bank deposit in a checking account under FDIC limits.

      Well, it wasn’t. The CDS you bought on Greece wasn’t. And it will only take another event like this or two before people conclude that everything is unsound as the jackals running the game will redefine the meaning of words to suit themselves and, failing that will simply steal the money.

      30+ years of lawless behavior has now devolved down to blatant, in-your-face theft. They don’t even bother trying to hide it any more, and Eric “Place” Holder is too busy supervising the running of guns into Mexico so the drug cartels can shoot both Mexican and American citizens.

      What am I, or anyone else, supposed to do in this sort of “market” environment? Invest in…. what? Land titles are worthless as they’ve been corrupted by robosigning, margin deposits have been stolen, Madoff’s clients had confirmations of trades that never happend and proved to worthless pieces of paper instead of valuable securities and while Madoff went to prison nobody else has and the money is still gone!

      Without enforcement of the law — swift and certain — there is no deterrent against this behavior.

      There has been no enforcement and there is no indication that this will change.

      It will take just one — or maybe two — more events like MF Global and Greek CDS “determinations” before the entire market — all of it — goes “no bid” as participants simply stuff their hands in their pockets and say “screw this.”

      It’s coming folks, and I guarantee you this: Whatever your “nightmare” scenario is for such an event, it’s not bearish enough.

      • Bob 53.3.1

        I can’t make it through your post. But if you are saying that the Capitalist system is about to collapse, then you are exactly right. And that means things are going to get bad, very bad, for all of us.
        I ‘hate’ ideologies, idealists, anti-realist’s…..conspiracy theorists etc. Great tragedies happen and it is a very human thing…..it is as complex as that. Frear, greed……it is as simple as that. I can’t be very eloquent about this, I just know that throughout human history civilisations fall and it is a human thing; wars happen and it is a human thing….we can’t deny the overwhelming evidence of human history. Greece, Rome, Byzantium, Assyria, Persia…..ancient powerhouses who had their ascent, their decline, and their fall. It is a human thing. We can’t read each others thoughts, people do what they can for their families….they fall in line…fear, greed, love…..it is a human thing.

    • pollywog 53.4

      If these comments – and comments that I have read here seeming to advocate the assasination of John Key

      Woah…back the stagecoach up there pilgrim.We don’t want Key dead.

      We just wish his shapeshifting reptilian overlords would take him back to Arcturus or Xenu or Nibiru or whatever planet he’s originally from and leave us the fuck in peace.

      and while theyre at it then can take Jerry the Hut back to Tattooine, Joyce the conehead back to Remulak and maybe show Blinglish where he lives.

      • Bob 53.4.1

        The tired theories of David Icke…..we’ve imported conspiracy theories en masse, the world is awash with paranoia. 7 billion people on the planet and all the technological terrors we have constructed cannot alleviate the sense that we are the dark ages cloaked in i-pads and tiny phones and other gadgets…so many still anxious and jumping at shadows. As has always been. Vampires , werewolves , zombies…the endless fascination with the religious, the pseudo-religious, the occult, the spiritual.
        (It doesn’t exists except in our heads, but how we wish it did, we so want to believe in magi)c). Mother Earth is our diety = the greens
        justice (eternal life) if we can only banish this dark force (of our imagination) = the left
        there is no god, what you call evil is actually banal, common place , and has always been = the right.

        • pollywog 53.4.1.1

          Dude, take me to your dealer…

          • Bob 53.4.1.1.1

            Drugs fuel paranoia and moreover, delusions. According to 35.6% of all Youtube comments regarding music video clips, music cannot be enjoyed fully without being high. Being high moves you slightly to the side of something, so that you can see it from a slightly different angle. Your new perspective is seductive because it seems fresh, but it is actually only that you are looking at something from a slightly altered angle. This can be viewed as banal. Meanwhile the process makes you pyschotic and delusional, because you can’t take reality for what it is anymore; you think there is really more than the ordinary, when really it was just a cheap conjurers trick.

          • lprent 53.4.1.1.2

            🙂 you’ve been saving that one up…. Haven’t you..

    • mike 53.5

      Yeah… Bob, did you just lecture us good folk about our hyperbole and hypocracy, then claim that we hate and despise anyone who has a job?

      You lost me about there bud.

  51. Zaphod Beeblebrox 54

    $18.5 Bill govt deficit, no way to reverse the decline. 50% of the GDP is government related. A commodity price fall will make things even more dire.

    The next couple of budgets are going to be ugly.

    If they do try and cover up for their fiscal incompetence (borrowing for tax cuts in a recession), its going to kill the economy. I think English knows it.

    I can guarantee ideology will trump sanity as its easier to lie to us about the fiscal problems and hope the next government has the guts to pull us out than to admit you are wrong. Wait for Key’s announcement that the boom is just around the corner.

    • Bob 54.1

      The borrowing has been to pay for W.F.F , interest free student loans , finance company collapses (see Michal Cullen and the guarantees) , 2 earthquakes etc.

      • mik e 54.1.1

        BoB the brainless those policies along with the buy back of air nz kiwirail 5.5 billion dollars on defence force upgrades etc etc were paid by you and me not some overseas investors that blingish borrowed from labour ran nine years of surplus 28.7% growth Double dipper hasn’t managed to grow the economy or balance books yet after five years as finance minister so on his past record we are in for more decline especially with austerity now the only policy platform National has!
        Exodus to Australia is already high and is a result of Nationals popularity most kiwis new national was going to get re-elected so have voted with their feet. A lot more will head that way especially those laid off from govt jobs that income will be gone + the money just needed to pay the debt down will no doubt contribute to a downward spiral!
        30% of the voting population isn’t a real mandate if National don’t deliver this term you can bet all the smiling and waving and blaming the previous govts and international conditions will leave national no where to Hide

      • Afewknowtheturth 54.1.2

        Bob.

        In a post peak oil world economic contraction is the only game in town (though the rate of contraction can be reduced in the short term by outlandish practices such as fracking).

        In a fiat currency world in which debt has gone exponenetial the only possbile outcome is currrency collpase.

        In an environmentally degraded world that is running short of soil, fresh water and phosphate, and is dependent on a declining oil supply oil to feed itself the only possible outcome is die-off.

        The collision between the delusions of people living in industrial societies and reality is booked for the period 2012-2015.

      • Zaphod Beeblebrox 54.1.3

        You did not read what I said. We borrowed $2Bill for tax cuts. We had a deficit of $18.5Bill last year. We have very little private savings as we borrow heavily to invest in private housing. 50% of the economy ia government activity Now what do you think will happen to GDP when we take the knife to WFF, Student loans, education and police spending? What do you think will happen to government revenue? How much do you think we are going to raise from our SOEs on the share market? Not saying middle class welfare is good- just saying English and Key are about to send us into teh economic ditch.

  52. Bob 55

    I fully agree. It does make your slavish devotion to ideology rather redundant. 7 billion people is a plague of locusts covering the surface of the planet. The collision of delusions of people who don’t have any handle on history and are amazed and awestruck by banal and terrible events equally is booked for the near future. It is a very human tragedy. We are flawed, we can’t deny it.

    • Afewknowtheturth 55.1

      Bob

      I have no ‘slavish devotion to ideology’.

      Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of most supporters of political parties or thsoe who lead them, whether of the so-called right or the so-called left. Even the Greens are ‘away with the fairies’.

      The Earth cares nothing for the machinations of men (and women) and will wipe out ‘the plague’ by the middle of this century unless humans take decisive action to prevent that outcome -something I see no indication of from ANY political party.

    • Colonial Viper 55.2

      Let us know when you turn 21.

  53. Bob 56

    The whole Left thing is psuedo-religious. I see it as people taking the focus off their banal existence and the certainty of their own inevitable death to leap into ‘good vs evil’ fantasy land. If you can vanquish the dragon, we all get milk and honey and never die!!! The Left has replaced religion as the opiate of masses of dreamers and shiny armoured knights in the service of a heroic lost cause. I read a comment on Stuff today from a Left Winger who compared the election to Star Wars: National are the Empire, Key is Palpatine; the left and Labour are the rebels who have suffered a set back. Delusional – in the extreme. And Goff is Luke aye. David Parker Han Solo. Annette King is Princess Leia. Maybe ‘evil corporations raping NZ’ is the Galactic Trade Federation (is there a role for Mike Moore here???).
    The election was banal and common place. Your own supporters can’t stomach you anymore, but they’ve been taught never to vote National. So they didn’t vote. It’s Star Wars to you ‘rebels’ and it was one Saturday in November to them.

    • Colonial Viper 56.1

      Actually its neoliberalism and orthodox economics which is ‘pseudo-religious’.

      But don’t let me stop you from continuing your sermons. Carry on.

      • Draco T Bastard 56.1.1

        I think calling neo-liberalism and orthodox economics ‘pseudo-religious’ is being too generous. Being completely fucken delusional is the only way to believe in it which means that it is nothing short of an insanity.

    • seeker 56.2

      @Bob 9.47pm onwards to 11.56pm

      I seriously think you are a having a crisis or at least a very strange brain outage.

      You seem to be talking about a mirror opposite New Zealand to the one I am living in.

      I live in an enlightened mindspace of New Zealand, where many of us are trying to thwart the dark ignorance of sparse, on the hoof policies as well as the firesale of our most ‘important-to-our-survival’ assets being imposed upon us by a “useless to anyone but themselves moneytrader and his overlords”.

      I think you are getting ready to see the real situation, but are fighting like crazy to stop this reality from overtaking the false world view you have either been brainwashed into, or have constructed yourself, from too much misinformation over the years.

      Either way I hope you come out of this obvious meltdown into the really real world and not the unreal one you have just lauded.

    • pollywog 56.3

      oooh yeah this is fun…

      Winston Peters is Lando Calrissian
      Bill English is Darth Maul.
      Steven Joyce is Boba Fett.
      Gerry the hut is, well Gerry the hut
      Russell Norman is Chewbacca.
      Metiria is an Ewok leader.
      Gareth Hughes is Jar Jar Binks.
      Jacinda Ardern is Padme Amidala.

    • DavidW 56.4

      Hey Bob, I think you are wasting your breath here for two reasons.
      1. The “hard left” that were mentioned well up this thread are gathering like Hippos in the shrinking pools of the Masai Mara (or wherever the hell the pools shrink in the dry season) so what you are seeing is a concentration of the hatred, mindless spite and accumulated bile of a bunch of bitter and twisted mindless sycophants who cannot look in the mirror and see the blemishes on their own faces. A number of kindly commentators (some even right leaning but want an effective Opposition) have been offering up advice on how Labour should revisit itself, its roots and its structure for much of the past three years but in each case they have been attacked, personally abused and vilified by the same names as you see here today.
      2. There is the well documented grief process for them to go through although some would seem to have been stuck on phase 2 for 3 years now and show no signs of looking to a realistic approach to manageing their furture, so it is still raw and emotional times for them. If you want a bit of reality go to the Dim Post where a more rational discourse may be obtained and your morning cuppa wont taste sour.
      cheers

      • Bob 56.4.1

        Who comes here from the US? Not me. Yesterday was my first visit to this site.

        [lprent: sorry, mistaken identity. It was a different bob who picked a permanent ban today, mostly for repeating past offenses. I have removed the note. As you say, you’ve only been here today as far as I can see. ]

  54. McFlock 57

    This is fascinating. Bob seems to believe the imminent departure of mankind from the planet creates an amoral existence where  the strong oppressing the weak is okay, even a neitzschean virtue. Thus the corporate elite assimilate the message of afktt, and our last minutes will still be fucked, right to the end. No brief period of niceness as we wait to die.

  55. McFlock 58

    Lol.
     
    See, by “fucked” I mean living in crap, convinced things will get better, while a few (1%/30% distinction doesn’t matter) live in luxury right to the end.
      
    Personally I don’t believe in apocalypse short of ocean stagnation. More a winding back of the productovity clock, with different technologies that are less efficient than oil but slightly more efficient than coal and wind. And a re-emergence of legitemised trans-oceanic slavery, rather than the pretend prohibition we have in our EEZ now.
     
    That is what I seek to avoid. Egalitarian improvement on the status quo is a bonus.

    • Colonial Viper 58.1

      Yeah but its a hard job. It will take a united effort by the entire country, and at the moment we’ve just reconfirmed that we are happy with the wrong direction.

  56. One Anonymous Bloke 59

    “Preliminary results from yesterday’s general election give National 957,769 votes, or 29.2% of the total 18+ population”

    Horizons.

    Just about sums it up really.

  57. John 60

    bob, your comments are just loose and unconsidered. The right wing of nz have always been the fretful sleepers of this nation, the left just don’t like seeing poor communities starved of attention and demonised again and again. Listen to the racist chants of John Bank and understand a dislike of the rightwing is not an emotional stance, it’s a reaction to the quality of the citizens put up by our well-heeled poor hating national party. The clap when benifecaries are whipped. sadistical in a way.

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