Absurd arguments

Written By: - Date published: 1:45 pm, November 4th, 2011 - 69 comments
Categories: election 2011, labour, national - Tags:

One of the tactics that National is using in the election campaign taking any Labour proposal and trying to discredit it by extending it to logical absurdity. They’ve done it with the minimum wage proposal (if $15 why not $30?). They’ve done it with buying back assets (why not 100% of Air NZ?). They’re doing it now with Labour borrowing $6b to invest in NZ Super (neutral because the asset is on the books). Key says:

If it’s such a great idea and so guaranteed despite the fact that the world’s stock markets are more volatile now than ever before, why doesn’t he go and borrow $100b?

Labour needs to get out there and start applying the same absurdist logic to Nat policies:

If low youth wages are so good for youth employment, then why not cut them to $1 per hour?

If lower tax rates for the rich are so good for the economy, then why not cut them to 10%?

If selling state assets is such a good idea, then why not sell 100% of them?

If sacking “back room bureaucrats” has no bad consequences, then why not sack all of them?

If getting tough on crime is the solution, then why not life imprisonment for a first offence?

If getting tough on beneficiaries is the way to get people back in to work, then why not just abolish the benefit?

And so on – I’m sure you can add your own. The point is that extending almost any idea to the point of absurdity is – absurd.

69 comments on “Absurd arguments ”

  1. toad 1

    Hey, r0b, aren’t those all ACT’s policies?

  2. gingercrush 2

    Personally I think Labour should counter with John Key is only looking short-term and Labour has a long-term strategy. I’d even use National’s 2025 analogy to go with it.

    If you vote Labour in 2011 by 2025:

    * Superannuation will be secure for all New Zealanders.
    – Labour is committed to keeping Superannuation at 2/3 media wage.
    – Labour will be putting money into the Cullen Superfund.
    – Labour will be making kiwisaver compulsory for all New Zealanders.

    * Capital Gains Tax will secure future government revenue
    – Labour will be able to put more money into health and education

    * Labour will cut greenhouse emissions
    – And under Labour those who contribute to greenhouse emissions will be paying for it not you the taxpayer

    etc.

  3. Lanthanide 3

    Key admitted he’s a monkey’s uncle today.

  4. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4

    Good to know you think owning 100% of Air New Zealand is “absurd”.

    So why is it also not absurd to own 100% of Meridian Energy?

    • felix 4.1

      “Good to know you think owning 100% of Air New Zealand is “absurd”.”

      It’s National who think it’s absurd to own 100% of air NZ. Don’t ask r0b, ask them.

      Oops Ole.

      • Chris 4.1.1

        The post states that National takes arguments to logical absurdities and then uses that as an example. So it is fair to say that r0b also thinks it is absurd.

        • Enough is Enough 4.1.1.1

          Air New Zealand is interesting.

          I don’t think it is absurd. It should be on the table, in the medium term, to return to 100% public ownership.

          There is no good reason why private investors should be drawing profits from our airline when they could and should be reinvested in New Zealand infrastructure.

          • Ari 4.1.1.1.1

            Personally, I’d nationalise it from straight under them, they’ve had enough return as-is.

          • insider 4.1.1.1.2

            Air NZ is something you’d probably want to sell for something better

            Return on assets 1.71%
            Return on equity 5.28%
            Return on investment 2.67%
            Div yield 5.24%

            Telecom

            Return on assets 2.50%
            Return on equity 6.77%
            Return on investment 3.31%
            Div yield 10.27%

            • lprent 4.1.1.1.2.1

              I guess you don’t understand the economic effect of infrastructure.

              One of the main reasons to keep Air NZ as a state owned asset is that it provides the only reliable air-freight company that NZ has. Over the years virtually every other one has come and gone, but Air NZ has kept going. Air-freight capacity has gone up and down like a yoyo as carriers enter and exit the market, at various price levels – but air NZ provides the base price signal to exporters.

              There are entire industries that I have been involved with that completely depend on air freight (including my current one). Flowers to Japan for the various festival weeks. Electronics going in and out to customers. Whatever. I’m quite certain that in economic terms for Air NZ the air freight is not the profit maker that passenger freight is during good times. But they carry on providing the capacity.

              Most export companies don’t use anyone else simply because they are unreliable when you need them. Air NZ is the lifeline to an large number of businesses. In turn the state collects taxes from those businesses.

              Factor that in and you’ll find quite a different picture. But I guess you don’t export. Otherwise you wouldn’t make such a short-sighted foolish statement.

              • fmacskasy

                Lprent. I recall when Air New Zealand went bankrupt and was facing collapse.

                Businesses around the country were begging the incoming Labour Government to bail out the airline and save it from being liquidated. millions of dollars worth of exports were at risk. And yes, I recall one particular flower exporter who stated on TV that if Air NZ went under, so would his flower exporting company.

                The so-called “free market” is “free”, until we have to pay the cost of essential services failing. Then we all pay.

                • mik e

                  Frank Air New Zealand has returned nearly a billion dollrs in profits for the taxpayer as well not bad considering it went bankrupt nearly twice under private ownership. once when it bought ansett and then it did go bakrupt after 9/11 because airlines went under all over.

                  • fmacskasy

                    Indeed, Mik e – one cannot argue with $1 billion!!

                    It’s also a scandal that Winston Peters did not fulfill his election promise in 1996 to “hand back the cheque” to the Fletcher Challenge consortium that bought NZ Forest Corp in 1996: http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/assets/saleshistory

                    That’s a lot of wealth and potential jobs for timber processing that we ended up loosing, due to our collective short-sightedness.

            • mik e 4.1.1.1.2.2

              Wouldn,t it be better to sell your best performing assets to invest in unprofitable assets like Kiwibank and air New Zealand thats whats spin national are having us on with
              like we will pay down debt with asset sales when our assets are returning in excess of 20% for every dollar invested. While the debt we owe is only costing us 6%
              dumb
              silly
              stupid
              economic lunacy Only National could come up with such a Dumb idea
              National have never explained the rational
              but spun and lied their way through this argument

        • felix 4.1.1.2

          Only if you don’t know how to read, Chris.

          Or if you don’t know what an “example” is.

          Or if you’re just an all-round simpleton.

          Allow me to demonstrate: My dog likes to roll in disgusting things, for example rotting seagull carcasses.

          According to your reasoning (and I use that word very loosely) it’s fair to say that I also like to roll in rotting seagull carcasses because I used it as an example.

          As it happens, I generally don’t.

          • Chris 4.1.1.2.1

            It seems you don’t know how to read. If you actually followed my reasoning in your example the conclusion would have been that you find rotting seagull carcasses to be a disgusting thing.

            To put it another way what exactly was he providing an example of – National taking an argument to a logical absurdity.

            Yet you are trying to say the example he used was not something he considered to be a logical absurdity?

            If it isn’t it must be the worst example of all time.

            • felix 4.1.1.2.1.1

              No, buying 100% of AirNZ is something National consider to be a logical absurdity which is why they use it as an example of the folly of not selling assets. r0b just wrote about them doing it.

              It’s not a hypothetical example that r0b made up to demonstrate the type of argument National make, it’s an actual example of an argument that National actually make.

              Want me to type slower?

              • Enough is Enough

                Felix

                So you are saying National thinks 100% ownership is a logical absurdity, but it is in fact a reasonable position to hold.

                That would also mean that National thinks a $30 minum wage is a logical absurdity but it is in fact a reasonable position to hold.

                ?

                • Colonial Viper

                  This ain’t about clever logic, this is about kicking the blue team’s ass.

                • felix

                  Enough is Enough,

                  Nothing in your first sentence supports the assertion in your second.

                  This really isn’t all that complicated.

                  • Enough is Enough

                    Follow robs two examples through.

                    “They’ve done it with the minimum wage proposal (if $15 why not $30?). They’ve done it with buying back assets (why not 100% of Air NZ?).”

                    $15 minimum wage- reasonable position
                    $30 minimum wage – Logically absurd

                    Current Air New Zealand shareholding – reasonable position
                    100% Air New Zealand shareholding – logically absurd

                    We all agree a $30 mimum wage is logically absurd. Many of us however think Air New Zealand should be a public company and 100% owned by the public.

                    Now do you see what Chris was saying?

                    • felix

                      Chris isn’t arguing the same point as you.

                      ps you’re still trying to argue a logical fallacy though, the relationship between (a) and (x) doesn’t define the relationship between (b) and (y). Or between (a) and (x) for that matter.

                    • Chris

                      No felix that is exactly what I am arguing.

                      Basically r0b is saying that National asking Labour if that is there position on the mixed ownership of assets why don’t you just buy back 100% of Air NZ is taking the argument to its logical absurdity.

                      Maybe you could explain why r0b would post something as an example of a logical absurdity if he didn’t think it was a logical absurdity. In other words why would he provide it as an example if he didn’t think it illustrated his point.

                  • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                    One of the tactics that National is using in the election campaign taking any Labour proposal and trying to discredit it by extending it to logical absurdity.

                    r0b accuses National of extending Labour proposals to a logical absurdity.

                    Are we agreed so far, Felix?

                    They’ve done it with buying back assets (why not 100% of Air NZ?)

                    So, r0b alleges that it is a “logical absurdity” to propose buying back 100% of Air New Zealand.

                    Are we still agreed?

                    • felix

                      No, he’s saying that National alleges it.

                      FFS just learn to read.

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                      National is not alleging it is a logical absurdity to buy back all of Air New Zealand. r0b is.

                    • felix

                      National is not alleging it is a logical absurdity to buy back all of Air New Zealand. r0b is.

                      As above, learn to read.

                    • Enough is Enough

                      come in rob…

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                      No. You learn to read.

                      r0b says:

                      One of the tactics that National is using in the election campaign taking any Labour proposal and trying to discredit it by extending it to logical absurdity…They’ve done it with buying back assets (why not 100% of Air NZ?).

                      r0b is alleging National is taking Labour’s proposal to a logical absurdity.

                      You are not normally this thick. Are you being wilfully mendacious?

                    • r0b

                      Sorry I’m late to this (just another lazy socialist with a busy job eh).  Goodness – you just never know how a post is going to turn out, or what small element of it will cause a war. Thanks to felix and others for arguing the case!

                      Yeah the post is about the Nats taking arguments to absurd extremes.  Mostly stuff that Labour has proposed to do, but in the case of Air NZ it’s something Labour hasn’t done.  Labour hasn’t bought back 100% of Air NZ.  The Nats try and argue that this means that it must be OK to to hock off 49% of some of our best assets.

                      So it fits the theme of the post in that its an argument that tries to take something to an extreme to make an absurd point.  But it’s not like the other points in the post because its about something Labour didn’t do rather than something they are proposing.

                      Hope that’s clear – a post is always a balance between spelling everything out clearly and overloading the thing with too much waffle.

                    • fmacskasy

                      Actually, Ole, the government has no need to buy all 100% of Air New Zealand because the current ownership model suits our purpose, as a nation: a stable airline service.

                      As for why we want to keep 100% of Meridian? Because that is the CURRENT model that suits our purposes, as a nation.

                      There is no reason to sell any of Meridian, or any other SOEs. They make good profits for us. If they weren’t profitable, no one would wqant to buy them.

                      Kinda logical really, when one thinks about it…

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Kinda logical really, when one thinks about it…

                      Which should tell you the problem – none of the RWNJs can understand logic or think.

                • mik e

                  Thats the sort of wage we need to catch Australia

  5. Colonial Viper 5

    Better to say that National is treating this election like a joke, and insulting tens of thousands who are struggling when their plan is no plan, only absurdities.

  6. giovani 6

    Nattionals plan to reward the rich and destroy the poor why else would you do what they plan to do?

    And everything else in this nation make us a low wages third world country.
    No thanks shonKey sooner your gone the better.

    I think the people of this country aren’t as stupid as the shonky polls say we are.

  7. Uturn 7

    If a 90 day probation period grows businesses and jobs, then everyone should be on probation permanently and no company should be allowed to operate for more than 90 days.

    If national debt is such a big concern to the rich, then they will gladly make large voluntary contributions to the IRD.

    If building the holiday highway helps the poor, then building a bridge between the North and South Islands will end poverty.

    If having a spreadsheet of figures assures the success of the economy, then exhibiting a business plan in the window of every start-up business will stave off liquidation.

  8. deservingpoor 8

    Warning: Sarcasm follows:
    National need to cut the crap and show us their willy instead of being leftist pussies:
    -Abolish benefits and reintroduce work houses. 1000 people a week have decided they’re too lazy to work since the recession began. National need to show they mean business. If the poor die, fuckem, they clearly had it coming.
    -Stop all government borrowing, for anything. Make repayment of existing debt within 1 financial year a priority, then we can start talking about spending on ourselves.
    -Forget about these namby pamby prisons. Public floggings and summary executions are far cheaper.
    -Cap tax. If you make over the median wage, you are obviously one of the virtuous and have been blessed by God. Its your money and you shouldn’t be forced to give a toss about anyone else.
    -Youth rates should not only be reintroduced but extended to age 40. Anyone younger than me is still a kid.

    🙂 This is fun, I could go on like this all day. Why the hell aren’t Labour?

  9. tsmithfield 9

    Labour needs to get out there and start applying the same absurdist logic to Nat policies:

    If low youth wages are so good for youth employment, then why not cut them to $1 per hour?

    If lower tax rates for the rich are so good for the economy, then why not cut them to 10%?

    If selling state assets is such a good idea, then why not sell 100% of them?

    If sacking “back room bureaucrats” has no bad consequences, then why not sack all of them?

    If getting tough on crime is the solution, then why not life imprisonment for a first offence?

    If getting tough on beneficiaries is the way to get people back in to work, then why not just abolish the benefit?

    None of those points are absurdities for me. 🙂

    • felix 9.1

      Then why should anyone take anything you say seriously, ever?

    • mik e 9.2

      What is absurd is selling your best performing assets which are returning in excess of 20% to the tax payer
      To fund Kiwi bank a virtually zero profit company

    • RedLogix 9.3

      If sacking “back room bureaucrats” has no bad consequences, then why not sack all of them?

      Does your business have an accountant? (Or indeed are you one yourself?)

    • mik e 9.4

      Tsm the only sensible thing you said all day which makes me think you are going to vote UF this election

    • Vicky32 9.5

      None of those points are absurdities for me.

      Does not compute! You’re a sane adult, hey? 😀

  10. Nick C 10

    “If low youth wages are so good for youth employment, then why not cut them to $1 per hour?”

    Because the natural counterpoint to ‘youth wages should be as high as possible’ is not logically ‘youth wages should be as low as possible’. It is that youth wages should be at the rate at which supply meets demand so that as many people as possible can get a job.

  11. Nick C 11

    “If sacking “back room bureaucrats” has no bad consequences, then why not sack all of them?”

    This is the wrong issue to apply the logical extremity analysis to. Clearly we need ‘bureaucrats’, the real question is what is the ideal number to have. Its logically consistent for National to reduce the number of bureaucrats without firing every single bureaucrat.

    • mik e 11.1

      They are hiring consultants at twice the price.

      • Nick C 11.1.1

        That makes sense in many senarios. E.g. even major companies with their own legal departments will sometimes hire specialist legal firms for particularly difficult or rare cases.

        • felix 11.1.1.1

          It’s not for particularly difficult or rare cases though Nick. Just like it wasn’t in the 90s.

          You may well have been born yesterday but don’t insult everyone else’s intelligence by assuming the rest of us were too.

        • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.2

          However it doesn’t make sense if they are hiring the same peeps back at twice the price. Or farming out exactly the same work at twice the price.

  12. Speaking of absurd, did anybody else watch Duncan Garner on TV3 news at six O’clock tonight?

    His argument was that John Key “crucified” Phil Goff by saying “show me the money.”

    Already debunked Garner you hack! In some ways I really do hope they keep up with the ludicrous spin.

    • Hami Shearlie 12.1

      Key crucified Goff? Phil still looks pretty sprightly to me! Phil’s released Labour’s figures , now Monkey-Boy, where are the jobs? Phil showed you his, now you show him yours – oh, sorry, you ain’t got any!! A derivatives trader( which was JK’s last job at Merrill Lynch) can hardly claim to be a financial genius, it’s more akin to a used car salesman, shady and dubious, trading peoples debts! It was trading in derivatives that was a huge part of the cause of the global financial crisis!

  13. RedBaron 13

    When Labour mentioned looking at the foreign ownership rules a while back the Media suddenly seemed to be a little less hostile. Perhaps the Media should be reminded that the Nacts won’t be in power forever and someday soon they will be dealing with Labour.
    Nor should we forget that one of them owes $42m to the Crown which can be included in Labour’s budget.
    Actually, if they go into default (or could be persuaded! to) on the loan the Crown could appoint the liquidator and take the lot over. Nice way to get some state owned Media and assets on the cheap ………..

  14. vto 14

    show me the money
    shonky
    embarassing

    you fullas need to toughen up and fire the shit back.

    call Key a liar again
    bring up mining
    use words like dodgy
    untrustworthy
    banker
    remind people he is a money trader. again and again and again
    play your opening vid every night during the news

    fight man fight

    • M 14.1

      For Key:

      Show me the drop in unemployment

      Show me the rise in prosperity

      Show me the dearth of foodbanks

      Show me the retieval of the miners entombed liked you promised

      Show me the people of Christchurch are adequately if modestly accommodated

      Show me more than the class clown and mincing

      Show me some intellect and humanity

  15. Only a few blogger would discuss this subject the way you do.

  16. Ed 16

    As far as borrowing to invest is concerned, do National really mean capitalism is so flawed that savings will never retain their real value, and it is never worth borrowing at low rates to invest with professional fund managers – that will always result in a loss?
     
    Besides, didn’t Bill English borrow an extra $5 billion this year to get in before the credit downgrades and borrow ahead of the announcement at lower rates? Are they saying Bill English was wrong?

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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Families to receive up to $75 a week help with ECE fees
    Hardworking families are set to benefit from a new credit to help them meet their early childcare education (ECE) costs, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. From 1 July, parents and caregivers of young children will be supported to manage the rising cost of living with a partial reimbursement of their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Unlocking a sustainable, low-emissions future
    A specialised Independent Technical Advisory Group (ITAG) tasked with preparing and publishing independent non-binding advice on the design of a "green" (sustainable finance) taxonomy rulebook is being established, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says.  “Comprising experts and market participants, the ITAG's primary goal is to deliver comprehensive recommendations to the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Chief of Army thanked for his service
    Defence Minister Judith Collins has thanked the Chief of Army, Major General John Boswell, DSD, for his service as he leaves the Army after 40 years. “I would like to thank Major General Boswell for his contribution to the Army and the wider New Zealand Defence Force, undertaking many different ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister to meet Australian counterparts and Manufacturing Industry Leaders
    25 March 2024 Minister to meet Australian counterparts and Manufacturing Industry Leaders Small Business, Manufacturing, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly will travel to Australia for a series of bi-lateral meetings and manufacturing visits. During the visit, Minister Bayly will meet with his Australian counterparts, Senator Tim Ayres, Ed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government commits nearly $3 million for period products in schools
    Government commits almost $3 million for period products in schools The Coalition Government has committed $2.9 million to ensure intermediate and secondary schools continue providing period products to those who need them, Minister of Education Erica Stanford announced today. “This is an issue of dignity and ensuring young women don’t ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Speech – Making it easier to build.
    Good morning, it’s great to be here.   First, I would like to acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of Building Surveyors and thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning.  I would like to use this opportunity to outline the Government’s ambitious plan and what we hope to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Pacific youth to shine from boost to Polyfest
    Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti has announced the Government’s commitment to the Auckland Secondary Schools Māori and Pacific Islands Cultural Festival, more commonly known as Polyfest. “The Ministry for Pacific Peoples is a longtime supporter of Polyfest and, as it celebrates 49 years in 2024, I’m proud to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • 2024 Ngarimu VC and 28th (Māori) Battalion Memorial Scholarships announced
    ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to Breast Cancer Foundation – Insights Conference
    Before moving onto the substance of today’s address, I want to recognise the very significant and ongoing contribution the Breast Cancer Foundation makes to support the lives of New Zealand women and their families living with breast cancer. I very much enjoy working with you. I also want to recognise ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Kiwi research soars to International Space Station
    New Zealand has notched up a first with the launch of University of Canterbury research to the International Space Station, Science, Innovation and Technology and Space Minister Judith Collins says. The hardware, developed by Dr Sarah Kessans, is designed to operate autonomously in orbit, allowing scientists on Earth to study ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Planning Institute
    Introduction Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today and I’m sorry I can’t be there in person. Yesterday I started in Wellington for Breakfast TV, spoke to a property conference in Auckland, and finished the day speaking to local government in Christchurch, so it would have been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Support for Northland emergency response centre
    The Coalition Government is contributing more than $1 million to support the establishment of an emergency multi-agency coordination centre in Northland. Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell announced the contribution today during a visit of the Whangārei site where the facility will be constructed.  “Northland has faced a number ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Celebrating 20 years of Whakaata Māori
    New Zealanders have enjoyed a broader range of voices telling the story of Aotearoa thanks to the creation of Whakaata Māori 20 years ago, says Māori Development Minister Tama Potaka. The minister spoke at a celebration marking the national indigenous media organisation’s 20th anniversary at their studio in Auckland on ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Some commercial fishery catch limits increased
    Commercial catch limits for some fisheries have been increased following a review showing stocks are healthy and abundant, Ocean and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The changes, along with some other catch limit changes and management settings, begin coming into effect from 1 April 2024. "Regular biannual reviews of fish ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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