web analytics

Action in Libya

Written By: - Date published: 10:07 am, March 20th, 2011 - 69 comments
Categories: International, war - Tags: ,

US, UK and French forces have begun attacks on government targets in Libya.

French planes flew reconnaissance yesterday and fired the first shots today.  They have destroyed a number of armoured vehicles and tanks.

UK submarines have attacked air defence targets and their planes have fired missiles.  In total US & UK forces have fired more than 110 missiles already.

Canada said a naval blockade had been implemented as well.  Italy has offered use of their airbases for operations.

UK PM David Cameron described the action as “legal, necessary, and right.”

Barack Obama said the US was taking “limited military action” as part of a “broad coalition”.  “We cannot stand idly by when a tyrant tells his people there will be no mercy.”

Earlier Libya claimed to have implemented a ceasefire, but media reported pro-Gaddafi tanks rolling into Benghazi and attacks continuing in Misrata, Adibaya and other towns.  A fighter jet was shot down over Benghazi.

Libyan state TV is claiming “crusader enemies” are bombarding civilian targets in Benghazi, Zuwarah, Misrata after their ceasefire.

69 comments on “Action in Libya ”

  1. ianmac 1

    “A fighter jet was shot down over Benghazi..” I think that was one of very few rebel held planes that was shot down by pro-government forces. See “Airstrikes begin on Libya targets.” on
    http://english.aljazeera.net/

  2. Lanthanide 2

    It’s encouraging to see such a broad group of countries stepping up to the mark within just a couple of days of the UN resolutions.

    • Amazing, the UN says go to war and all of us dimwits do. Funny how Bahrain can get help from the Saudis to squash their civilian uprising, Yemen can kill it’s demonstrators point blank and Israel can bomb Gaza unpunished but Libya which by the way has the biggest oil reserves in Africa can be bombed with only a days notice.

      Do I like Gaddafi? No, but the ease with which you think that bombing a country to smithereens because we don’t like its ruler is unsettling to say the least.

      Just goes to show how effective the propaganda has been the last couple of weeks.

      • Marty G 2.1.1

        I think that just because countries are hypocritical in not stopping the Yemeni and Saudi regimes doesn’t invalidate doing the right thing for the people of Libya.

        In case you missed it, nearly all of the country changed to the rebels. Then Gaddifi massacred protesters in Tripoli and his forces began rolling back the rebels. Should the rest of the world just sit by and watch a massacre? Should the fact that they’re too hypocritical to stop other bad regimes mean they should never stop any bad regime?

        • Pascal's bookie 2.1.1.1

          It’s a little bit more complicated than that though.

          If the reasoning is based purely on ‘duty to protect’, then why does that duty not apply to other countries? Doing one and not the others discredits the idea of ‘d2p’ making it ‘d2p if and only if x’. What is the value of ‘x’? Given that is ‘x’ that is doing the heavy lifting in terms of intervene or not, then you can’t fall back on d2p as the answer to why we are intervening. Sorry.

          Secondly, there is the factor of these other revolutions and protests to take into account. If by intervening in Libya we are attempting to send a signal to both other regimes and the protesters, then we assume a responsibility to how we act in reaction to their modified behaviour. It’s easy to say that we can ignore the hypocrisy, but if you are in Bahrain staring down the barrel of a US made tank, it ceases to be point scoring exercise.

          How will such a person feel about western claims WRT to d2p, democracy, freedom and sexy when their own attempts at throwing ooff a tyrant are met with US made ordinance and nothing else but ‘calls for restraint’. It is hypocrisy, and it might not matter to the people in Libya being protected by that hypocrisy, but it matters a great deal to those on the wrong end of it. What effects will our hypocrisy have on the shape of their attempts at revolution.

          I’m thinking of how Ho Chi Min ultimately ended up stalinist partially due to the absolute lack of support that he saw from west when he was thinking about how Woodrow Wilson’s language about self determination might apply to Vietnam.

          Now that’s a stretch, but my point is that these things do not happen in isolation. Revolutionaries look for support wherever they can get it, and is we are offerring it using universalist claims like d2p and what have you, then we better live up to those claims, or they might just bite us in the arse.

          • Bunji 2.1.1.1.1

            Ultimately there are difficult points of rule of law versus moral requirements. Philosophers will often suggest there is little difference between the man who stands by and watches someone die when he could prevent it, and those who actively kill. But who has the right to enforce their morals on others? That’s why we have international law. It’s a problem of getting a consensus of the world’s governments (ie the UN) to agree to an action. The US goes in on its own, it’s imperialism, the US does nothing it’s complicit, and no-one else has the power. It has to get UN agreement, which takes time. There’s no perfect system, because we’re imperfect being who greatly disagree with each other. It’s got to be duty to protect where the world can get agreement unfortunately. Sorry if that’s too realistic over idealist, it’s certainly disappointing to me.

            Interesting sidepoint on Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh offered to in effect give up communism if the US would support him (as China was in civil war and Russia in disarray after WW2) – he was a nationalist over being a communist. But the US backed French imperialism in contrast to their stated values of self-determination. Hypocrisy has been going on a long time there…. (and didn’t that turn out well for them)

            • Pascal's bookie 2.1.1.1.1.1

              There is not much I’d disagree with there; what I’m concerned about is that this intervention, (along with many others we could name) is being sold on the moral arguments. The realist arguments that are the actual basis are left in the dark.

              This has numerous problems.

              Firstly, it suggests that the idealist rhetoric is being used to get the domestic (western) population on board, that the realist arguments wouldn’t do the trick. That’s bad not just as a matter of democratic principal, but bad because the domestic support for the action is puddle deep. If things go ‘wrong’ and the action drags on, support diminishes and we end up not being able to achieve whatever it is we are supposed to be achieving, but could well be making things worse.

              Secondly, the rhetoric we are using to get domestic support is also heard by everyone else in the world. When we use language that evokes our deepest political and philosphical traditions, (democracy freedom sexy), and fail to live up to those words, or if we use them selectively, then those notions get rightly tarnished.

              When we go in for realist reasons but use idealist language, that disconnect is noticed. It discredits (in the eyes of third parties and other actors), the actual things that the idealist language connects to. It only harms our attempts to spread those values in the long run.

        • travellerev 2.1.1.2

          The right thing? Marty, just wake the hell up why don’t you. While you were wanking at the chance to do the “right thing” for the Libyans with tomahawk bombs and jets conveniently parked over the last couple of weeks before the Libyan coast the US was bombing 80 civilians to death with drone attacks in Pakistan. The Saudi army (Who gets most of their arms from the US) attacked citizens in Bahrain and in Yemen government troops killed demonstrating citizens. And lest we forget. Israel used white phosphor when it attacked Gaza killing hundreds of innocent civilians most of whom children and while it was widely condemned it could happily carry on as usual.

          By the way how did innocent civilians who just wanted to get rid of their “dictator” all of a sudden get their own jets and heavy arms? Oh oops sold to them by the US and helped by the CIA. Funny how that always happens in oil rich countries.

          This doesn’t happen in NZ of course, here we are all obedient sheeple. All they have to do is send in a guy with a pretty face who is getting married to a another pretty face to say a few kind words to traumatised people and just because he is called a prince everybody falls over backward to try and please him.

          It just them damned “ragheads” who don’t want to play ball and give us their oil for next to nought that need a good bombing.

          Do you have any idea how racist you are?

      • Marty G 2.1.2

        and what propaganda? The US was dragged kicking and screaming into this. They should have put the no fly zone in weeks ago.

        • Pascal's bookie 2.1.2.1

          Before they had support from the Arab League?

          • Marty G 2.1.2.1.1

            before it was too late. it’s going to be bloody hard to get gaddifi’s forces out of some of those cities. they’re basically hoping to stop them moving between cities and bankrupt him, hoping the military will collapse.

        • Gus 2.1.2.2

          And so they should be dragged kicking and screaming into this.

          The Americans are currently engaged in two long running military operations which have cost the American people over 7000 lives (and 32000 injured), billions of dollars and an unmeasurable amount of political capital.

          This action has already cost over $62.5 million for the Tomahawks that they’ve launched and will have cost much more in personnel, and vehicle operations for what, some feel good factor about protecting innocent lives? If this cause was so important then Legaue of Arab nations not carrying it out themselves, its not like they don’t have the capabilities.

          http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/03/the-arab-leagues-air-power/
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Arab_League

        • travellerev 2.1.2.3

          Marty please don’t make a fool of yourself by showing how incredibly gullible and naive you are.

          The US has been gagging for this and has in fact been financing the rebels and given them training and arms. They were loosing and that’s why all of sudden the UN had to come up with the no fly zone, Which by the way now seems to mean bomb the shit out of them straight away.

          They sailed their Mediterranean fleet to Libya weeks ago.

          Here is a bit of info about Gadaffi and how he “ran” Libya. The stuff the US does not want you to know:

          Before the chaos erupted, Libya had a lower incarceration rate than the Czech republic. It ranked 61st. Libya had the lowest infant mortality rate of all of Africa. Libya had the highest life expectancy of all of Africa. Less than 5% of the population was undernourished. In response to the rising food prices around the world, the government of Libya abolished ALL taxes on food .

          Just for starters.

          • uke 2.1.2.3.1

            Thanks for the link. It was very informative.

            The presentation of facts in the MSM has not rung true to me so far. When was the last time a government fighting a rebellion on its own soil (“popular” or “staged popular”) was so quickly subject to a UN-sanctioned attack? It is a really serious breach of sovereignty.

            Good to read some critical thinking out there.

      • Lanthanide 2.1.3

        Where did I say I support the UN resolution or that I supported what Gaddafi is doing? No where, actually. I specifically avoided passing judgement on those points, I wanted to see if I could bait anyone into reading things into what I said. Looks like I was correct.

        What I said was: it’s good that the UN passed a resolution and then a broad range of countries quickly stepped up to enforce it.

        If the UN is to achieve anything, it has to be able to act on it’s resolutions (when it eventually makes them). There’s no point having a supposed international authority that has no authority in practice.

  3. KJT 3

    Note the difference in US reaction to a dictator who nationalized oil levies and is shooting up his own people compared to the equally rotten dictatorships that allow US oil companies free rein.
    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/201131733318735470.html

  4. hellonearthis 4

    Is this conflict a combination of oil war and revenge for the Lockerbie by the British.

  5. Omar 5

    >hellonearthis 4 [ 20 March 2011 at 3:09 pm ]
    >Is this conflict a combination of oil war and revenge for >the Lockerbie by the British. [?]

    Absolutely. And more. It will be interesting to see how it develops. NATO has been on the ground for some time, which means they will not leave it to chance – or the goodwill of the opposition. A NATO protectorate ?

  6. He Marty,

    I guess you have to kill’em to save’em.

    Breaking news: Hospitals hit

    • Bright Red 6.1

      any evidence that hospitals have been hit? Even the gaddifi regime hasn’t claimed that.

      • travellerev 6.1.1

        Eat your heart out. Global research is an institute ran by Michael Chossudovsky who is frequent quest on RT (Russia TV is now on offer on Sky).

        • Bright Red 6.1.1.1

          yeah, I saw that text only report on some unknown website. I was asking for evidence.

          Like I say, even teh Gaddifi regime isn’t claiming hospitals were hit.

  7. David 7

    Are the Western powers now bombing Libyan really capable of doing “the right thing”? I don’t think so.

    Or to put it another way, “the right thing” for them has nothing to do with the right thing for the Libyan people or the Arab revolution.

    They are protecting their easy access to Libyan oil, Saudi and Gulf oil and their overall domination of the region.

    The structure of imperial domination has taken a huge hit from the uprisings, particularly the fall of Mubarak in Egypt, and the Western powers know they must do something to ensure that whatever new order emerges it will still be under their control.

    That easy bit was backing the Saudi / Kuwaiti / UAE invasion of Bahrain, to ensure the revolution is crushed in those countries.

    The hard decision was deciding what to do in Libya. They’ve now decided their interests are best served by turning on Gaddafi, and installing a friendly government there.

  8. clandestino 9

    This is a hard one. I was always uneasy about the way Western media has implicitly and in some cases explicitly supported the ‘rebel’ side in this civil war. To far flung observers, it would seem the whole of the country supports them or would if it were safe to do so. How can this be when we see video of many thousands in the ‘pro-Gaddafi’ camp taking to the streets and fighting the war etc.?

    Now that the West is being widely seen as doing the ‘right’ thing, there are still many unanswered questions like the above that get ignored in the excitement of it. Are the loyalists bought and paid for? Is it a class thing? Is it a tribal thing? All of the above?

    To me it’s regime change by another name, Europe wants a compliant, stable, democratic state on its doorstep to stem the flow of migrants, I suspect, perhaps even giving North Africans in Europe a democracy they may want to return to and ‘rebuild’ with newfound ‘hope’. The oil theory doesn’t really follow for me, as this will surely push prices to above the cost the world was paying for ‘Gaddafi’ oil, similar to the ridiculous Afghan pipeline conspiracy (if you really wanted it, it would be cheaper to pay them off than to start wars).

    The law of unintended consequences will apply.

    • David 9.1

      European leaders, and the US too certainly want “a compliant, stable” government in Libya, and elsewhere, but “democratic” has never been one of their concerns, as we can see by the undemocratic nature of every other compliant and until recently stable regime in the region.

      Discounting oil as a major factor in this (and other wars) doesn’t stack up. It’s not about short term price, it’s about long term supply. And most importantly at this stage reasserting US / Western control over what happens in the region.

      As fore the Afghan pipeline – which was planned with the cooperation of the Taleban – that fell through because the Taleban never gained complete control of the country, they failed to provide a government that was either compliant or stable. It’s far from being the only reason for the Afghan war, but why deny it was a factor?

  9. Hi folks!

    Remember Iraq?
    Whose interests were the ‘Coalition of the Willing’ defending?
    The Iraqi public? – yeah right.

    Iraq – OIL / Libya – OIL
    Spot the difference………

    If you haven’t yet read the UN Security Council resolution for yourselves – I’ve got a copy plus relevant International Human Rights Law info on my blog:
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

    Seen this?

    [deleted]

    The link is here

    [lprent: Penny – the rule is that you cannot cut’n’paste on this site unless it is original material (ie I can’t find it in a 30 second search of google). Basically long screeds of pasted material are a pain for people to read. They want to hear your thoughts on a subject – not to read something that they can find in seconds if they’re interested.

    You can put in links, give short quotes and write your thoughts on the links to entice people to read it. But if you persistently just cut’n’paste here (and I have to waste time cleaning it up) I’ll eventually get annoyed and remove your ability to write here at all. ]

    • Bright Red 10.1

      Just because some military action is wrong does not make all military action wrong.

      To think that Libya is about oil is stupid. The US making buddies with Gaddifi in the 2000s, that was about oil. The easiest way to secure Libya’s oil would be for the rebellion to be crushed. Which the US nearly let happen.

      It was dragged into this by France and the Arab League at the last minute.

      You hypothesis requires that you ignore the popular uprising in Libya (8,000+ rebels killed so far) and ignore the fact that the US waited until the last possible moment to avoid an even greater bloodbath. One more day and Benghazi would have fallen.

      • Colonial Viper 10.1.1

        Those rebel units must have been completely inexperienced.

        They made huge gains in the first week from the east moving towards Tripoli but did not consolidate their advances and organise, instead they seemed to have partied their victories. Rookie mistake.

        • Bright Red 10.1.1.1

          you don’t get it. It’s all part of the West’s clever plot. 🙂

          In reality, the rebels expected Tripoli would rise up on its own. Unfortunately, the loyalist forces massacred the rebels in Tripoli and most of the rebel military hasn’t taken part in the fighting until now. It’s been dudes in pick-ups vs tanks, and their military mistakes compounded their lack of weaponary.

      • travellerev 10.1.2

        That would be correct if you actually believed that the oil companies were out to sell you cheap oil but they aren’t. They want the monopoly and Libya (Gadaffi is not the prime minister nor the government but a symbolic figure head) was selling their oil too cheap. By the way funny how BP just started to drill before the coast of Libya, eh?

        • Bright Red 10.1.2.1

          So what? BP and others have been in Libya for years. They were making good money off being friends with Gaddifi (remember the Lockebie bomber was released as a reward for Gaddifi letting in BP?). Why would they want a civil war?

          I mean, how does your conspiracy theory play out?

          BP wins over Gaddifi. Starts drilling for oil. (true)
          BP, what, finds some secret motherlode? I mean we already know that Libya has oil. OK, BP finds some secret motherlode (no evidence)
          BP decides it can make even more money from this motherlode if there is a civil war and Gaddifi is replaced (no evidence)
          Rebellion formented by BP (madness)
          West lets rebellion be nearly snuffed out before acting (true)
          BP hopes that this civil war will end some time in the foreseeable future and the new rulers will let them make even more money from the secret oil motherlode.

          First rule in the oil game: when a friendly dictator is letting you drill in his country, leave the dictator in charge.

          I get that you’re anti-US and I get that you’re paranoid but, really, being pro-Gaddifi is a step too far for you ev.

          • travellerev 10.1.2.1.1

            Ah, the old conspiracy and you’re paranoid put down again.

            The depth at which BP wants to drill is deeper than the depth it drilled in the gulf of Mexico. That went wrong. So what if Libya got wet feet and did not want to have the same disaster in what is primarily a big pond.

            Sadam was also a befriended tyrant with huge amounts of oil. He wanted the oil for Iraq and that was the end of him.

            The Taliban did not want a huge pipeline through Afganistan and ended the opium trade in 2001 and that was the end of them.

            Iran wants to sell its oil in other currencies than the dollar (like Sadam by the way) and voila they will be next.

            Libya was negotiating with China for investments oil infrastructure by the way so that would not have been taken to to kindly.

            Forgive me for not providing ample links to all of this info but I have to get back to my real life. Give it a google, you’d be surprised what you can find.

      • Pascal's bookie 10.1.3

        It was dragged into this by France and the Arab League at the last minute.

        Not really. France drafted, and the AL wanted, a NFZ, the US wanted a broad agreement/some sort of alliance. The pentagon (rightly enough) argued that a nfz wouldn’t achieve anything and so the US drafted the stronger ‘anything short of occupation’ resolution that was passed.

        The AL is now saying that the attacks have gone too far.

    • Hi Penny,

      Good to see you here!

      Ev

    • Ok!
      Sorry about that.
      Cheers

      Penny

  10. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/03/20/2011-03-20_action_in_libya_has_gone_too_far_arab_league_and_russia_complain_as_civilian_cas.html

    errr….. how do US-led ‘Coalition’ forces’ bombs and missiles support an ‘immediate cease fire’ in Libya?

    How does killing civilians ‘protect’ them?

    Iraq – here we go again?

    Penny Bright

    • Bored 11.1

      I think your question was adequately answered in passing by Tariq Ali (being interviewed by the lightweight Kim Hill on Saturday). His contention was that the West should keep out of actions such as this.

  11. The Voice of Reason 12

    Some interesting comments here. I’ve been back and forth on this one in the last few days and right now, I’m hoping Gaddafi holds on. Not because I think he deserves any support or symathy, but because it looks to me like the regime to follow will be worse than his.

    The ‘rebels’, as far as I can tell, are not democrats, despite claiming they will institute open elections after the fall of Gaddafi. Their leadership is primarily dissafected Gaddafi-ites. My prediction, should they prevail, is a mini Iraq. A civil war, no democracy and an unholy fight to get hold of petro dollars.

    Like Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi is a dictator. But that is not a good enough reason to intervene militarily.

    A couple of quick points for Trav. Sections of the military defected to the rebels and that is why they have some tanks, planes and heavy arms, not because the CIA magic’d them into Benghazi. The rebel leadership apparently refused to allow the defecting soldiers to lead or even train fighting units in the early days, but now appear to have got over their initial reluctance.

    Secondly, nothing in Marty’s comment was racist. You are the one that used a racist term, not him. You owe him an apology.

    • Actually voice of reason, the very fact that neither one of you is willing to do even the most rudimentary bit of research and accept whatever the media say about Muslims and Arab countries and their leaders is what is so racist.

      Just to give you an example which might shock you to bits. In pre-war Europe every western country had a group of Jews living in separated areas in their cities. Just about every average person accepted the “common” knowledge about Jews and how they were different and greedy and secretive and untrustworthy and when Hitler came with his anti-Semitism propaganda he had it very easy because it just confirmed what everybody already “knew”. If you had told all these average Joes they were racist they would have been incensed but as far as I am concerned this is just more of the same. You know how I know? I had to commemorate every year in February the one time these average Joe’s actually stood up for Jews in Amsterdam in the second WW. The tag line for this strike?

      “They may be rotten Jews but they are our rotten Jews.”

      That was what they wrote on the walls of the Jewish quarter in Amsterdam. That was OK to my fellow Dutchmen at the time and when I grew up I used to go to the old Jewish quarter and buy second hand clothes from the few Jews left after the war.

      The West has killed more than a million Iraqis and god knows how many Afghanis and now we are killing Libyans and not a single soul in this country gives a flying fuck because according to them they’re just some stupid Arabs in a desert somewhere and as somebody actually told me she thought it was just dangerous that them Arabs had control over “our” oil and you know what? I have lived with Muslims all my life and I have never in my life had anything other than friendship and mutual respect with them and I am sick to death from the easy uncritical shite you and Marty spout here without even the most basic understanding of Arab culture in general or Libyan culture in particular or Touareg or Tunesian or Egypt or any of the other many, many other different Mediterranean Arab cultures for that matter.

      The very fact that you think that we as the West have the right to bomb a country back to the stone age because they don’t seem to want the same coca cola crap we do and their social structure is different to ours without knowing their history and their culture is the very essence of racism so fuck you VOR is I politely decline to apologise.

      And here is some info about CIA involvement in Libya and take my advise give google a whirl. The Egypt US sponsored military has been funnelling money and arms to the “rebels” in Libya. And here are some search terms you might try:
      Libya, Israel, CIA, Egypt.

      • The Baron 12.1.1

        Are we really doing this again, Eve? Can you get off your high horse please?

        Not every bloody thing is about oil. There is a massively imbalanced conflict ongoing in Libya that without intervention will lead to a massacre. It is morally right for the West to intervene to prevent that.

        If you want to make the frankly astounding link that this is all again about oil then I bid you good luck. But don’t start getting insulting to others if they don’t believe you.

      • The Voice of Reason 12.1.2

        I guess you didn’t read all of my comment, Ev. My position is that we should not be bombing Libya. Marty sees it differently, apparently.

        I’m not a racist and my lengthy relationship with an A’dam Jew in the nineties here and in Holland has given me more than enough insight into how they were treated before, during and after the war. I lived with her near the Jewish quarter for an oh too short time and I got to know the area and history reasonably well. And, trust me, if you decline a visit to the Anne Frank house because you’d rather go to watch Ajax play, you tend to learn a lot of Dutch Jewish history in a very short space of time!

        I repeat, nothing in Marty’s comment was racist. Nothing in mine is either, so now you owe me and Marty an apology. Not just for claiming we are racists when nothing either of us has said warrants the description, but also for attributing attitudes and beliefs to us that you just fucking made up because you have no valid excuse for your claim. Actually, isn’t attributing attitudes and beliefs like that a common trait in, er, racists?

        And, just for the record, I’m reasonably well read on african/moor/taureg/arab etc cultures and have been to the middle east a couple of times. I do my research on any subject I comment on here, because I prefer to speak with relative authority. I remain a loyal fan of the region’s various kinds of music and I can tell you that the cows in the paddock nearest to the living room absolutely love Tinariwen, Amadou and Mariam and above all, the late, great Ali Farka Toure.

        • travellerev 12.1.2.1

          Good for you. Now read up on the the last 80 years of CIA and US policies towards the Arab world and you’ll be fine.

          • The Voice of Reason 12.1.2.1.1

            How about you just lay off the personal abuse and apologise for calling me and Marty racist without good cause? Or are you too scared to admit a mistake?

            • travellerev 12.1.2.1.1.1

              No, I don’t have a problem apologising or admitting a mistake but I am still of the opinion that both of you are racist. Maybe not of the evil dumb way most racists are pictured but more of the patronising lefty middle class white guy type.

              You may not like that but I am entitled to my opinions. I have known people who listened to all the right music read all the right books and still didn’t have clue what their fellow middle class, no I take that back the richer people they would have liked to have been or the politicians they looked up to are up too. Or worse still who cannot see wrong in Obama starting two wars of aggression and intensifying another but because he was voted in as the first black guy and can not be criticised for fear of being called a racist.

              Reading up on cultures is not the same as living together in one fucking neighbourhood having to deal with all the different idiosyncrasies, religious differences and habits. Going on a holiday is nice but has no bearing on really getting to know people for real. Living with say a Turkish family on one side and a Moroccan family on another and perhaps a Suriname family living above you, that is when you get really tested for tolerance and your ability to accept other cultures. My guess is that never happened to you.

              Also I think that you really should read up on say the family of secrets (Bush), False flag events such as the golf of Tonkin and 911 to name a few, western politics and geopolitical manipulations and maybe you should learn to talk to me about yourself and leave Marty out of it. If he wants me to apologise than he will have to pick his own fight. He’s a big boy he can handle it and I suggest you do the same.

              If you think that is personal abuse than you are even more immature than I thought you were. Just my personal opinion but there you have it, take it or leave it.

              • The Voice of Reason

                What a weirdly demented person you are, Ev. You know nothing about me, except the information I’ve chosen to share on this site. Fuck your ‘opinion’, find me an actual example of my being racist or you really should apologise. Really. Same for Marty, who as far as I know doesn’t deserve the tag either, which was the point I made at the start.

                I’m not a racist and I have actively lived my life espousing an anti-racist message. You don’t even know the colour of my skin, but you’re happy to characterise me according to your own race based bigotry. That’s not an opinion you’ve got there, Ev, it’s an illness.

                • Good for you VOR.

                  You’re entitled to your opinion too even though you base your entire opinion like I do (we have after all nothing else) on what you read on this site.

                  Sleep well.

                  • The Voice of Reason

                    There are two kinds of people I can’t stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people’s cultures, and the Dutch.

                    [Nah… this is getting beneath both of you. …RL]

                    • LOL.

                      Again, you are entitled to your opinion and if that means you base your opinion about an entire people (17 million of us) on your experience with one Tulip so be it and I can rest my case.

                      Have a nice night, I know I will.

                    • The Voice of Reason

                      It’s a joke, RL. Austin Powers. It’s said by Austin’s dad to a mad Dutchman. As it happens, Nigel Powers was played by Michael Caine … not a lot of people know that.

                      [Oh very good. That one went right over the top. Linky for the lost like me…RL]

  12. Tiger Mountain 13

    When a no fly zone is imposed over Gaza to the benefit of Palestinians I might believe the imperialists have really changed their spots. US military intervention always, not sometimes, has an ulterior motive, otherwise it would be universally rather than selectively applied.

    Why ascribe humanitarian motives to a US regime that stumps up for military hardware while millions of American citizens remain homeless and without decent health care.

    • Blighty 13.1

      just because they’re hypocrites doesn’t mean they’re not doing the right thing in this case.

      Simple question: would you rather that Gaddifi’s forces retook Benghazi and Tobruk and massacred the people there?

      Because that was the alternative.

      • travellerev 13.1.1

        No, the question is do we want the West to kill Libyan civilians or not.

        The West has attacked Libya and not Gaddafi.

        Gaddafi could have been dealt with with one bunker buster bomb but that would have meant the Libyan people would still be in control of their own oil and not the big international oil companies.

        As it happens the Libyan government has opened its arms caches to the people of Libya, not standard dictator fare I hope you will agree and the people of Libya are preparing for an all out war with an international army send in by the global elite.

        Thousands gathered to volunteer as a human shield to protect their leader and the international attack on Libya has done wonders for the unity in Libya because as probably escaped the general population over here; the rebels in Libya did not have the support of the Libyan population unlike the demonstrators in Egypt for example.

        The Arab league has condemned the bombings and if anything Gaddafi if not Libya will serve as another rallying point for Arabs against the US and NATO.

        Now ask yourself if say Maori and sympathetic Pakeha disenchanted with Nationals policies with regards to the foreshore and seabed issues had taken up arms and had started an armed and murderous uprising how would you feel if the US decided to attack the NZ government because they were trying to disarm the armed rebels?

        I’m sure there are millions of Native peoples around the world who could muster up a huge sympathy with said rebels.

  13. Tiger Mountain 14

    Just keeping things in perspective. Everyone that has taken the time out today to tap out a few words on this subject should be cautious about how much we pontificate really, it is not our bodies on the line this time.

    The times the yanks don’t intervene, e.g. Rawanda, Palestine, or intervene negatively -Grenada, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama, Iraq, far outweigh the occasional time there might be a useful spin off from their activities which is little cause for joy. Every life is worth something which is my point “that was the alternative” is not about hypocrisy, it is about definite strategic decisions. During the 1980s the UN damn near went broke because the US would not pay their dues. Once the cold war was decided they began to cough up again.

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Cost of Government Southern Response proactive package released
    The Government has announced the proactive package for some Southern Response policyholders could cost $313 million if all those eligible apply. In December, the Minister Responsible for the Earthquake Commission, David Clark announced a proactive package for SRES claimants who settled their claims before October 2014. It trailed the judgment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 hours ago
  • New support to reduce emissions from public building and construction projects
    Government agencies are getting new support to reduce carbon emissions generated by construction of new buildings, with the release of practical guidance to shape decisions on public projects. The Ministers for Building and Construction and for Economic Development say a new Procurement Guide will help government agencies, private sector suppliers, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    8 hours ago
  • He Whenua Taurikura: New Zealand’s first Hui on Countering Terrorism and Violent Extremism
    The Prime Minister has opened New Zealand’s first hui on Countering Terrorism and Violent Extremism, which is being held in Christchurch over the next two days. The hui delivers on one of the recommendations from the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the terrorist attack on Christchurch masjidain ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    9 hours ago
  • Speech to inaugural Countering Terrorism Hui
    E aku nui, e aku rahi, Te whaka-kanohi mai o rātou mā, Ru-ruku-tia i runga i te ngākau whakapono, Ru-ruku-tia i runga i te ngākau aroha, Waitaha, Ngāti Mamoe, Ngai Tahu, nāu rā te reo pohiri. Tena tātou katoa. Ki te kotahi te kakaho ka whati, ki te kapuia, e ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    9 hours ago
  • Campaign shines a light on elder abuse
    A new campaign is shining a spotlight on elder abuse, and urging people to protect older New Zealanders. Launched on World Elder Abuse Awareness Day, the Office for Seniors’ campaign encourages friends, whānau and neighbours to look for the signs of abuse, which is often hidden in plain sight. “Research suggests ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • Farewelling sports administrator and philanthropist Sir Eion Edgar
    Sport and Recreation Minister Grant Robertson today expressed his sorrow at the passing of Sir Eion Edgar – a leading sports administrator and celebrated philanthropist who has made a significant impact both within and beyond the sport sector. “Sir Eion’s energy, drive and generosity has been truly immense. He leaves ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Government to apologise for Dawn Raids
    The Government will make a formal apology for the wrongs committed during the Dawn Raids of the 1970’s. Between 1974 and 1976, a series of rigorous immigration enforcement policies were carried out that resulted in targeted raids on the homes of Pacific families. The raids to find, convict and deport overstayers ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Humanitarian support for Bangladesh and Myanmar
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced that New Zealand is providing NZ $8.25 million in humanitarian assistance to support refugees and their host populations in Bangladesh and to support humanitarian need of internally displaced and conflict affected people in Myanmar.  “Nearly four years after 900,000 Rohingya crossed the border ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Poroporoaki: Dame Georgina Kamiria Kirby
    E Te Kōkō Tangiwai, Te Tuhi Mareikura, Te Kākākura Pokai kua riro i a matou. He toka tū moana ākinga ā tai, ākinga ā hau, ākinga ā ngaru tūātea.  Haere atu rā ki te mūrau a te tini, ki te wenerau a te mano.  E tae koe ki ngā rire ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Feedback sought on future of housing and urban development
    New Zealanders are encouraged to have their say on a long-term vision for housing and urban development to guide future work, the Housing Minister Megan Woods has announced. Consultation starts today on a Government Policy Statement on Housing and Urban Development (GPS-HUD), which will support the long-term direction of Aotearoa ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Clean car package to drive down emissions
    New rebates for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles start July 1 with up to $8,625 for new vehicles and $3,450 for used. Electric vehicle chargers now available every 75km along most state highways to give Kiwis confidence. Low Emission Transport Fund will have nearly four times the funding by 2023 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Progress towards simpler process for changing sex on birth certificates
    The Government is taking the next step to support transgender, non-binary and intersex New Zealanders, by progressing the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Bill, Minister of Internal Affairs, Jan Tinetti announced today. “This Government understands that self-identification is a significant issue for transgender, non-binary and intersex New Zealanders, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Crown speeds up engagement with takutai moana applicants
    The Crown is taking a new approach to takutai moana applications to give all applicants an opportunity to engage with the Crown and better support the Māori-Crown relationship, Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Minister Andrew Little says. Following discussions with applicant groups, the Crown has reviewed the existing takutai moana application ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Alcohol and Other Drug Treatment (AODT) Court opens
    The Minister of Justice, Kris Faafoi, and the Minister for Courts, Aupito William Sio, have welcomed the opening of a new Alcohol and Other Drug Treatment (AODT) Court in Hamilton. The AODT Court (Te Whare Whakapiki Wairua) addresses situations where substance abuse and offending are intertwined. “New Zealanders have told ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • EU and UK FTAs top of list for first ministerial trip since COVID-19
    Trade and Export Growth Minister Damien O’Connor today announced details of his planned visit to the United Kingdom and European Union next week, where he will hold trade and agriculture discussions to further New Zealand’s economic recovery from COVID-19. The visit will add political weight to ongoing negotiations with both the EU ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Arihia Bennett to chair Royal Commission Ministerial Advisory Group
    Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu chief executive Arihia Bennett MNZM has been appointed chair of the newly appointed Ministerial Advisory Group on the Government’s Response to the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the terrorist attack on Christchurch mosques. “Twenty-eight people from diverse backgrounds across Aotearoa have been selected for the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Medical Association General Practitioners' Conference, Rotorua
    Ki ngā pou maha o te whare hauora o Aotearoa, kei te mihiTo the pillars of our health system I acknowledge/thank you Ki te ope hapai hauora o roto o tēnei rūma, kei te mihi To our health force here in the room today, I acknowledge/thank you He taura tangata, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Karangahape Road upgrades are streets ahead
    The upgrades to Karangahape Road makes the iconic street more pedestrian and cycle-friendly, attractive and environmentally sustainable, Transport Minister Michael Wood and Auckland Mayor Phil Goff said at the formal celebration of the completion of the Karangahape Road Enhancements project. The project included widening footpaths supporting a better outdoor dining ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Speech to APEC business event
    E ngā tumu herenga waka, ākina ā ngaru, ākina ā tai ka whakatere ngā waka ki te whakapapa pounamu, otirā, ki Tamaki o ngā waka Tena koutou katoa… To the great leaders assembled, who guided your waka through turbulent times, challenging waters and you continue to navigate your respective waka ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Pause on Quarantine Free Travel with Victoria extended
    Following an assessment of the COVID-19 outbreak in greater Melbourne, New Zealand’s Quarantine Free Travel pause with Victoria will continue for a further seven days, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins says. There are now 93 cases associated with the outbreak in greater Melbourne, spread over four clusters. Contact tracing efforts ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Supplier Diversity Aotearoa Summit: Navigate 2021
    *** Check with delivery *** A mihi to all who have contributed to making today a success – starting with you! As you have explored and navigated government procurement today you will hopefully have reflected on the journey of our people so far – and how you can make a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Pukemiro School to close
    Pukemiro Primary School near Huntly will close following years of declining roll numbers, Education Minister Chris Hipkins announced today. “I’ve consulted with the School Commissioner, and this decision acknowledges the fact that the few remaining students from last term are now settled at other nearby schools. “I want to thank ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Govt acts to protect NZers from harmful content
    New Zealanders will be better protected from harmful or illegal content as a result of work to design a modern, flexible and coherent regulatory framework, Minister of Internal Affairs Jan Tinetti announced today. New Zealand currently has a content regulatory system that is comprised of six different arrangements covering some ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Consultation on exemption of new builds from proposed tax rules
    The Government has today confirmed new builds will be exempt from planned changes to the tax treatment of residential investment property.  Public consultation is now open on details of the proposals, which stop interest deductions being claimed for residential investment properties other than new builds.   “The Government’s goal is to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Speech for Predator Free 2050 Conference
    Introduction E ngā mana E ngā reo E ngā iwi Tēnā koutou katoa   Ka huri ki ngā mana whenua o te rohe nei. Tēnā koutou He mihi hoki ki a tatou kua tau mai nei i raro i te kaupapa o te rā Ko Ayesha Verrall toku ingoa No ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New stock exchange to help grow small businesses
    A new share trading market, designed as a gateway to the NZX for small-to-medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), has been granted a licence by the Government. Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister, David Clark said Catalist Markets Ltd will provide a simpler and more affordable ‘stepping stone’ for SMEs to raise capital. “This ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Visa extensions provide certainty to employers and 10,000 visa holders
    Changes to onshore visas will provide employers and visa holders with more certainty, Immigration Minister Kris Faafoi has announced. Around 10,000 Working Holiday visas and Supplementary Seasonal Employment (SSE) work visas due to expire between 21 June 2021 and 31 December 2021 will be extended for another six months to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Border class exceptions approved for more farm workers and vets
    The Government has approved border class exceptions for an additional 200 dairy workers and 50 veterinarians to enter New Zealand, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor announced today.  “It is clear from conversations with the dairy and veterinarian sectors that they are facing workforce pressures. These border exceptions will go a long ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • More freezers and South Island hub to support vaccine roll-out
    A South Island hub and 17 new ultra-low temperature freezers will help further prepare New Zealand for the ramp up of the vaccination programme in the second half of this year, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins says. The new freezers arrived in New Zealand on 27 May. They’re currently being ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech at the release of Climate Change Commission's final advice
    Good morning – and thank you Prime Minister. Over the last three and half years we have been putting in place the foundations for a low-carbon Aotearoa that will be a catalyst for job creation, innovation, and prosperity for decades to come. In that future, many of our everyday tasks ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Achievable blueprint for addressing climate change released
    Report says Government making good progress on emissions reduction, but more action required Meeting climate targets achievable and affordable with existing technology Economic cost of delaying action higher than taking action now Benefits from climate action include health improvements and lower energy bills All Ministers to help meet climate targets ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to release of Climate Commission final report
    A few years ago in a speech in Auckland, I compared climate change to the nuclear free movement of roughly four decades ago. And I did so for a few reasons. Firstly, because the movement of the 1980s represented a life or death situation for the Pacific, and so does ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Appointment of Judge of the High Court
    Auckland Barrister Michael Robinson has been appointed a Judge of the High Court, Attorney‑General David Parker announced today. Justice Robinson graduated with a BA and an LLB (Hons) from the University of Auckland in 1996, and commenced practice as a solicitor with Brookfields in Auckland.  In 1998 he travelled to London ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government takes action to improve protections for subcontractors
    The Construction Contracts (Retention Money) Amendment Bill – which provides greater financial protection for subcontractors, has passed its first reading today. The Bill amends the retention provisions in the Construction Contracts Act 2002 (CCA) to provide increased confidence and transparency for subcontractors that retention money they are owed is safe. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • 1 million more Pfizer doses to arrive in July
    Pfizer has scheduled delivery of an estimated 1 million doses of vaccine to New Zealand during July, COVID1-9 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “These consignments will double the total number of Pfizer doses we have received this year to more than 1,900,000 – enough to fully vaccinate almost 1 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Long-term home of the Independent Children’s Monitor identified
    The Independent Children’s Monitor (Te Mana Whakamaru Tamariki Motuhake), which is currently located within the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), will become its own departmental agency within Government. “Following the recommendations of several reviews, Cabinet agreed in 2019 to build a significantly expanded independent monitor for children in care,” Carmel ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Racing Integrity Board members announced
    The new Racing Integrity Board will be up and running from July 1 to ensure high standards of animal welfare, integrity and professionalism in the racing industry. Racing Minister Grant Robertson today announced the appointments to the new Board: Sir Bruce Robertson KNZM – Chair Kristy McDonald ONZM QC Penelope ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Govt crackdown on organised crime continues
    A major operation against multiple organised crime groups with international links will make a significant dent in drug harm and violent offending linked to organised crime networks, Police Minister Poto Williams says. “I want to take an opportunity to congratulate the Police for their role in Operation Trojan Shield. This ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Farm planning framework supports farmers into the future
    A new framework, agreed between Government and industry, will make it easier for farmers and growers to integrate future greenhouse gas emissions and freshwater regulatory requirements into their farm planning, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor said. “The Good Farm Planning Principles Guide out today, provides guidance for how farmers can organise ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Enhanced Task Force Green Approved for Canterbury
    The Government has activated Enhanced Taskforce Green (ETFG) in response to the Canterbury floods. The Minister of Social Development and Employment, Hon Carmel Sepuloni says $500,000 will be made available to help with the clean-up. The flooding in Canterbury has been a significant and adverse event damaging farmland, homes, roads ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago