Andrew Little should…

Written By: - Date published: 8:48 am, November 20th, 2014 - 217 comments
Categories: Andrew Little, leadership - Tags:

All the usual suspects are lining up to give advice to new Labor leader Andrew Little. Why shouldn’t we have a go? Here’s my top ten, Andrew little should…

  • Expect and receive the support of every Labour MP.
  • Put together a front bench team based on merit not history. (The talk of “purges” that sometimes goes on is crazy.)
  • Put together an experienced and professional office (one that is not afraid to tell him when he’s wrong).
  • Urgently reach out to Young Labour and find ways to increase their role in the Party.
  • Fundraise fundraise fundraise.
  • Not throw the policy babies out with the bathwater.
  • Be himself.
  • Ask Nanaia Mahuta to take on social welfare.
  • Ask David Parker to change his mind and take on finance again.
  • Ask Grant Robertson to be deputy.

That’ll do for starters – your turn.

217 comments on “Andrew Little should…”

  1. vto 1

    … should jump on this story…. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/63361758/Workers-charged-for-petrol-drive-offs

    … stand up for the workers of our country

    John Key wont stand up for workers. Of course.

    • SDCLFC 1.1

      That ones really astounded me this morning – normally with stories like these there is some kind of dept x is speaking to person y….but nothing on this one – what cnut.
      Business owner wants to own the capital then he owns all the risks to profit.
      If he wants to share the profit risks, he can share the capital and profit. Not doing that at $14,25

      • Tom Gould 1.1.1

        I think it would be a mistake for Andrew to become the nation’s ‘shop steward’ and play to the Tory media’s script.

        As for Nanaia, Grant and David, yes, yes, and yes.

        • felix 1.1.1.1

          I think it would be a mistake for Andrew to do or not do anything out of fear of what the tories in the media might say.

          That way lies madness.

          • McFlock 1.1.1.1.1

            I think it would be a mistake for Andrew to do or not do anything out of fear of what the tories in the media might say.

            I’ll go farther than that – Little should be his own person, and not try and change to be more camera-friendly, regardless of who gives the advice. “To thine own self be true” sort of thing.

            Shearer’s lowest point, IMO, was the snapper gambit – it was contrived and he was clearly not comfortable with it as a gimmick, but I got the impression it was a ‘good idea’ from some bright spark to make him more dynamic in the House.

            Similarly, Cunliffe’s poorer moments were when he came across as trying to play a role rather than being himself.

            It’s the other argument against the ‘only priority is get elected’ position: saying and doing what you think will always have a natural advantage over saying and doing what you think other people want you to think. The bullshit just piles up until it overflows and drowns you.

    • Michael 1.2

      “John Key wont stand up for workers. Of course.” Instead, Honest John stands on workers. What will Labour do instead?

      • Enough is Enough 1.2.1

        It is illegal.

        No-one needs to do anything other than kick the shit (figuratively) out of this employer.

  2. AmaKiwi 2

    The three rules of politics are

    1. Get elected;
    2. Get elected;
    3. Get elected.

    Politics is NOT about honesty and ideological purity. Key wins because he consistently is NOT completely honest about his intentions. Do the same.

    Winning is not the most important thing. It is the ONLY thing.

    • vto 2.1

      That is correct if you wish to go about your life in such a manner …….

      I think you will find that there are few people in the world like that. They are psychopaths. John Key is one. But he is certainly not a ‘winner’, he is a prick.

    • Pat O'Dea 2.2

      “Winning is not the most important thing. It is the ONLY thing.”
      AmaKiwi

      Rubbish

      If you are sincere in making a difference, power for power’s sake is not what counts, in fact the quest for power and the compromises some people make to get it, often see them compromising the principles that they entered government to achieve.

      Forwarding and achieving policies that benefit your constituents is what counts.

      Mike Minogue and Maralyn Waring were lobbied to vote with the opposition against nuclear ship visits.

      Rod Donald sucessfully campaigned for MMP without ever having been in government.

      Hone Harawira made child poverty an election issue in 2011 (which it has remained ever since) when no one else was talking about it.

      The Maori Party got the Labour Party to take up their GST off food policy, (since rescinded.)

      The National Party has been forced to accept New Zealand as a Nuclear Weapons free country.

      In the US environmentalists have managed to lobby and pressure the newly Republican dominated congress to vote down the Keystone XL pipeline.

      Compare this to Rod Donald who in the Minor Parties debate said that to get into government with Labour he would give up the Green Party’s opposition to deep sea oil drilling.

      Remember what happened to the Alliance when their MPs gave up their antiwar principles to keep their cabinet positions in the Clark government?

      Then tell me again Amakiwi that, “Politics is NOT about honesty and ideological purity”

      For Russel Norman to have given away his party’s principles for cabinet positions would have seen him in the same place as Jim Anderton. Kept on by Labour, but hated by the party he once led. The same goes for all political leaders who sell out principle for power. The experience of the Lange Douglas government goes a long way to explain why giving up your principles does not pay in the long run, and why Labour are in the position they are currently in.

      If Andrew Little can return Labour even part way to the principles on which his party was founded then he will have secured its future, if he takes your cynical political advice Amakiwi, Labour’s fortunes will continue to fall.

    • weka 2.3

      What’s the point of winning if you have no values? Or integrity.

      • Clemgeopin 2.3.1

        +1

        I would rather lose than win being nasty, crooked, untruthful, unfair and dishonest like Key, English, Joyce….and National.

        It is up to the voters to recognise that.

      • greywarshark 2.3.2

        Or policies of relevance to your voters and members?

    • AmaKiwi 2.4

      I am not surprised by these responses because The Standard is a place where saying extreme things doesn’t do much damage to the parliamentary Labour party. MPs of all parties get into parliament by knowing when to speak out and when to bite their tongues.

      Confrontation is the only tactic available to the powerless.

      Compromise is the strategy for getting things done if you are in power.

      Compromise is not a sin. I do it everyday in my marriage, with my children, and in my work. The Standard is a forum for articulating our ideals. Parliament is where our ideals can be shaped into lasting changes. That’s why we need to get elected.

      • DoublePlusGood 2.4.1

        If you compromise on your values, you have no integrity. If you have no integrity, you should not be in parliament.

      • McFlock 2.4.2

        The ultimate compromiser is peter dunne. He’ll vote for anybody.

        What fucking good has he been to the country?

        By your logic Labour going into coalition with national is better than Labour being in opposition. The Maori Party tried that, and that was a pyrrhic victory at best.

        Nope. Much better to have principles, and actually change something when power is finally achieved.

    • greywarshark 2.5

      @ Amakiwi
      You are right but also wrong.
      Yes you can’t be effective much or at all with your policies if you don’t win.

      No, winning is not all if you are a bunch of pollies-on-the make just providing enough acceptable result to stop people from getting antsy but putting most energy into the smoke and mirrors and personal gain. The people can gnash their teeth then but can’t get rid of you if the incumbents can keep the goodies tripping along to enough people.

      • Pat O'Dea 2.5.1

        Waiting to get into government to change things is just lazy thinking.

        If all the opposition MPs want to do, is sit on their hands until they are government ministers, then why on earth do we pay them their salaries until then?

        If this is how the opposition Labour MPs see their role, then they risk becoming no more than worthless idle troughers. And we wonder why, when they finally do get into office, why they don’t become dynamic agents for social change?

        It can be argued that a strong and campaigning oppostition has achieved major social change.

        Andrew Little could do worse than emulate Harry Holland this country’s greatest opposition leader. And the best Prime Minister this country never had. (except for the never becoming Prime Minister part).

        For instance the introduction of State Housing, (which has been rightly attributed to the Labour Party), was first introduced into this country by the Liberal Reform Government, because of Labour Party Pressure.

        This was before the first Labour government got into power.

        The same with nuclear ships, this was won by the opposition on the floor of parliament before Lange became Prime Minister.

        It heartens me that Andrew Little has suggested forming a team to coordinate and plan ongoing political campaigns working with NGOs and unions and other progressive people and community based groups.

        This will be how Labour will again build respect amongst the voting public.

        A public that campaigns Left will vote Left.

        First off, I think we need to see a bigger Labour led presence at the anti-TPPA rallies and protests.

        • greywarshark 2.5.1.1

          @ Pat O’Dea
          Thanks for this point. It is something I forget. I have read people complaining about Labour in opposition and being unable or ineffective at QT. Is it just dependent on having a Speaker who runs the House properly though? Can you make your points in question time if this is so biased by the Speaker and the government member doesn’t have to stand up and answer fully and fairly?

          How did they manage things in ‘the old days’ to get such good effects?

          • phillip ure 2.5.1.1.1

            good performers in parliament are good performers..

            ..poor performers are poor performers..

            ..and yep..speakers can have an effect..(and having seen three in action..this one is the most biased towards the govt..and regularly lets them get away with not answering/addresing questions..)

            ..but those performers stand/fall on their own merits..

            ..and labour in general has pretty much sleep-walked/been in snoze-mode for the last six years..

            ..(i think they adhere to the mike williams theory of how to win gummint..namely..you just have to wait until the people are sick to death of the other lot..

            ..and while there is a grain of truth in that..it just speaks to deep cynicism..a lazy culture of not bothering to do much..it’s just a matter of waiting..)

            ..and the most efficient opposition mp over the last three yrs has been norman from the greens..(but not so in the previous term when they had their ‘arrangement’ with national/key..funny that..!..the greens were also silent when they had their ‘arrangements’ with clark..)

            ..and in/from abour..cunnliffe is the only one who has come close to those ‘old days’ you yearn for..

            ..this all also speaks to labours’ being ‘lost’..not knowing who/what they are..save for a not quite as bad as the tories party..

            ..i am hoping little will change all this..

          • Pat O'Dea 2.5.1.1.2

            It has been said that the worst job in politics is leader of the opposition.

            But it can be the greatest job in politics.

            Kiwis love cheering for the underdog.

            Especially if they are seen to be leading from the front.

            The Labour leader and his MPs and all their supporters should make sure that they are seen at every TPPA rally. (after all it is Labour policy to oppose the TPPA if it is negotiated and signed off in secret, and it is).

            The Labour Leader and his MPs and all their supporters should be at every rally or protest against the privatisation of State Housing and the 90 day evictions. (afterall Labour was the champion of State Housing in the country). They needn’t go as far as getting arrested as the Mana leader Hone Harawira was. (not that it would hurt, a number of the first Labour cabinet had done prison time for their antiwar convictions).

            The Labour Leader and his MPs and all their supporters should be at every stopwork and picket line and strike against the new unfair labour laws. Just as David Shearer and most of his shadow cabinet joined the march in support of the locked out Ports of Auckland union members, and spoke at their protest rally outside the port headquarters. (afterall Labour is the party formed out of the trade unions, which is reflected in its name.)

            By being seen in the front row of these and other Left campaigns is how Andrew Little will gain the title of greatest Labour Party leader of a generation.

            Bring it on.

            • greywarshark 2.5.1.1.2.1

              @ Pat O’Dea
              Sounds sound straightforward and likely to be effective. How’s that for a game plan Labour team!

  3. northshoreguynz 3

    *Give either FInance or Economic Development to Cunliffe.
    *Find a heavier weight to savage Parata.

    • Treetop 3.1

      Mahuta deputy and social development
      Finance to Cunliffe (he will strongly oppose English)
      Health to King
      Education to Robertson
      Economic development to Parker
      Housing to Twyford
      Corrections to Shearer

      As for the rest I am neutral.

  4. Jenny Kirk 4

    Yeah – we might as well add in our tuppence worth – everyone else is doing so.

    I’d prefer Nanaia as deputy, and give Grant Robertson something really solid – why couldn’t he take on finance if Parker doesn’t want it ?

    Being Party Leader of such a divisive caucus/Party is a big enough job – Little shouldn’t do the fundraising himself but he does need to find someone capable of taking on that job. Maybe he’ll have someone in mind from his union boss days ?

    Give Cunliffe economic development and environment – the two portfolios have to work together. Can’t have the first de-spoiling the latter so whoever is in charge of these portfolios really needs to have oversight of both.

    Other than your sixth bullet point – rOb – and how you’ve listed the last three, I ‘d go along with your other suggestions.

    Its going to be interesting what comes out over the next few days or so.

    • SDCLFC 4.1

      It’s going to be hard to make headway against National on Finance without someone who’s previously been a cabinet minister and that leaves a very narrow selection.

      • goodsweat 4.1.1

        Yes, English is perceived as being good at his knitting.

        Rather than beat him by trying to match him, maybe look at strategies to outflank him.

        Like all Fin Mins he is a figure head. English won’t move before first talking to his half doz of trusted finance gurus. You need to be sure when fiddling with a nation’s wallet.

        So…Who are those half dozen finance gurus a Labour Govt would call on? Feature them. Then the story becomes. “Labour aren’t interested in rock star 1 man band Finance portfolio managers. We aren’t using 1 ego. We are using a panel of NZ’s finest financial minds, headed up by a person with Minister on the door.”

        It’s the same thing the Nats already do, just spin it with a Labour ‘collective’ flavour.

        • Colonial Rawshark 4.1.1.1

          “NZ’s finest financial minds”

          good god, lets put the bankers and ex-bankers in charge.

        • Tracey 4.1.1.2

          He fudged the figures and lied about the promised surplus. The media and his colleagues ran his lines. People like you voted for the lies.

          Post election he tells the truth.

          Be VERY specific, with actual strategies, how do you outflank that and get people like you to see that the lies matter

  5. goodsweat 5

    Formulate a plan and take it beyond rhetoric by securing signed contracts that become live upon Labour governing. A plan to increase the number of satisfying jobs available, career paths, lift wages, houses to own, the means for most to get into one.

    Then come election campaign time the claim can be made: These aren’t election promises. This is all in place, we have binding signed contracts with land owners, large scale builders, training institutions. we’re all ready to get NZ cracking, it’s on the launch ramp. All we need is those 2 red ticks on Saturday.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1

      You are dreaming ! Its all too absurd for any sort of consideration.

      • goodsweat 5.1.1

        It is very unconventional, granted.

        I think a win in 2017 is going to take something special.

        There are aspects of my idea that could be further developed. I think you’re being a little bit rash to entirely dismiss what I have to say.

        The opportunity for excellent little side stories and backdrops would pop up time and time again. eg:

        “Brooke Sabin” We’re here at Puhoi Ceramics with Andrew Little. You’re a city man out in the bush Andrew, how come?

        Little: “We’ve just come from AUT, they are looking at converting some disused space so they can take on 50 tiling trainees just after Labour win. Before that we were at New Zealand Tiles at Penrose, when New Zealanders vote Labour in we are going to need more than 20 million ceramic tiles and that leads us to Puhoi and why we’re here in the bush Brooke.

        Puhoi Creations hand make these fantastic feature tiles. We’re going to need 1000’s of them. They can’t supply us with 20 million tiles…what a mindless job it would be making those… but this contract for art tiles will support these 2 families for 5 years and who knows from there.”

        Ghost I think you might be chucking my idea out before kicking it around in your mind a bit.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1.1.1

          OK, what you have shown is a admirable outcome, it would be a good policy to stimulate small town manufacturing, and bringing training institutions and employers together to create new jobs fits in with a forward looking strategy.

          Youll notice no mention of contracts. Oppositions dont have people who can negotiate and sign binding contracts. The legal problems are horrendous and unworkable.Last election the housing policy was ‘discussed’ with industry leaders but that was only to drive the detail policy.

          As you say, labour all ready talks about ‘when we are in government’, but and its a big but, MPs are a legislative and policy making body. Any MPs signing contracts with businesses to apply after being voting in should and would be shot. You think what happened with Judith Collins and touting around China for husbands business was bad, this would 100 times worse.
          ( having said that the closest example to bad government practice – that we know about- was when Bill English and Tau Henare as ministers did a backroom deal outside of official cabinet channels for Donna Awatere over funding for a Maori reading NGO , which she was ripping off)

          Policy statements in writing are as far as it needs to go, but set the direction and when in government then pass laws to allocate funding and let experts write up the contracts is how its done and how its allways done.

          • goodsweat 5.1.1.1.1

            Thanks for taking the time Ghost. Your time wasn’t wasted. I accept and acknowledge the issues you raise and yes: Binding signed contracts are not viable.

            Your other key point: Thin ice re: ministers of the crown doing deals with private business operators. Yes, I am naïve to overlook the ramifications.

            I’m pleased you acknowledge my speculation re: the potential this impossible situation would hold for pitching a feel-good Party message.

            So, what is the potential for something to hang our hats on inbetween the 2 claims? Concrete evidence that “Vote for us, this is what is going to happen.” A device that sits between the mere claim “Oh yeah, we’ve talked to builders, they can whack up 5000 no worries.” and “We have these binding contracts.”

            • ghostwhowalksnz 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Youre a thoughtful and intelligent person, but let the binding contracts side of it go.
              Ministers are not opposition MPs and are in a different situation, but even then doing the deal is a no go. They just announce something which has been properly signed up for by others.
              Labour quite rightly crticised the breach of standards when Sky City did a back room deal with John Key. Even then they were spending their own money ( so far, but expect some surprises down the road) and the deal was about policy changes.

        • Tracey 5.1.1.2

          Now, explain how you make sabin take up that story?

          Your story is premised on the notion that such stories are not offered up. I bet they are, almost daily.

    • JAMES MAXTON 5.2

      KEEP IT SIMPLE

      More Jobs
      Better Pay
      Affordable Housing.

      Ditch CGT, NZ Inc, NZ Power,NZ Ins, stand up to the right wing media, highlight inequality and child poverty.

      • goodsweat 5.2.1

        Yep, all 3 issues can be addressed with a bona fide push in housing.

        Also: The means to get into one of these houses. Contrary to popular opinion people keen on owning their own first home aren’t demanding double garages and 2 bathrooms.

        If we could find a way to steer a little of our mega spend on accommodation supplements into ‘Own your own home’ supplement I think we’d see improvements in many aspects of life in NZ. Nothing triggers a sense of neighbourhood and home pride like everyone owning the properties.

      • DoublePlusGood 5.2.2

        You mean, ditch all the actually good policy?
        No.

  6. Manuka AOR 6

    hmmm..

    “Ask David Parker to change his mind and take on finance again.”
    Yes. Big thumbs up. Go talk to him. Find our what his concerns are. Bring him round.

    “Ask Grant Robertson to be deputy. (heh!)”
    You really are kidding, right?

    “Be himself.” One of the first things he said he would do, when quizzed by reporters after the results news. And best advice, yes 🙂

    • r0b 6.1

      You really are kidding, right?

      No – I’m really not. The “heh” was because I knew that would be contentious around here, but it’s confusing, I’ll delete it.

      • SDCLFC 6.1.1

        Ardern for Deputy?

        • r0b 6.1.1.1

          Maybe, but I think Grant is a better pick now. Ardern’s time will come no doubt!

        • Chooky 6.1.1.2

          IMO….If the Labour Party is to change back to its roots… and win back the missing million…. Little cant afford to compromise

          ….the Deputy has to be Nanaia Mahuta , who is the most worthy on performance and experience and appeal to Maori and women…and she is loyal!…. (Adern completely turns off many… she is seen as a careerist like Robertson, and she has not earned it)

          Little faces the problem that Cunliffe faced….compromise with the ABCs and neolibs and careerists…and neglect the grassroots Labour core constituency and you are a done turkey. He needs to surround himself with the best and the most loyal and the ones with the most appeal to the Electorate…

          Cunliffe should be Minister of Finance …he has a high positive profile ( dont listen to the Hootons and Slaters of this world who perceived him as a huge threat John Key Nactional)

          • Treetop 6.1.1.2.1

            Chooky you have got it sussed.

          • fisiani 6.1.1.2.2

            Little the union boss as Leader. Mahuta the Maori radical as deputy and the loathed Cunliffe as Finance spokesperson would plummet The Union Party below 20% and into third ranked Party status. Only 4 Labour MP’s voted for Little. Just 4. Some lied to his face that they would vote for him. I give Little less than a year.

            • Clemgeopin 6.1.1.2.2.1

              You don’t seem to understand the mechanism of the Labour leadership voting. It is NOT a back room deal sort of election like they do in National or ACT.. It is NOT a caucus driven vote. It is a preferential vote from the caucus, the Labour members and the union affiliates in the ratio, 40:40:20. The four formidable candidates went on the hustings, working very hard, speaking and seeking votes. The unions only had 20% or 1/5 of the say. 80% or4/5 came from Caucus and members.

              Some caucus members may have had some reservations about Little because he has never been a cabinet minister, is fairly new and has not won his electorate seat.

              Now consider this: In spite of ALL THAT, he got great support in the first, second and third preferences and won! Isn’t that a creditable achievement for Little?

              And also note this: Little took a while to decide to join the race. BEFORE he put his name forward, he rang each of the caucus members and asked them if they would give him full support if he wins, irrespective of whether they would give him their first preference or not. Every one of them said, they would. Only with that assurance, he put his name forward, from what I heard.

              • Treetop

                Thank you for explaining the voting mechanisim for the Labour leadership to fisiani.

                Maybe Little could capture the attention of the younger voter by getting a new haircut (a mohawk with a red strip).

              • Jenny

                Some of Andrew Little’s success can be attributed to the popularity and good will held for David Cunliffe by the membership. This good will was passed on to Andrew Little when David Cunliffe endorsed Andrew in the leadership contest, (This was a selfless act by David Cunliffe made for the good of the party. It is widely accepted that if David Cunliffe had have stood, he would’ve won.)

                • Clemgeopin

                  You are quite right and I am glad Cunliffe did that. From the interviews that Little has given so far, I am more quite certain now that Little will be a very good leader and an excellent PM. A right man at the right time for the party and the country.

          • Murray Rawshark 6.1.1.2.3

            Can’t argue with that. Give the Social Welfare one, whatever they call it, to Nanaia Mahuta as well. Twyford can have housing.

      • Manuka AOR 6.1.2

        And how would that be different from the last time around? (DC and Grant)?

        • Chooky 6.1.2.1

          Manuka AOR….+100…many will leave the Labour Party….Little will be chicken Little and Labour will have cooked its cooked Goose…again….ruthless change is needed

          John Key manged a big clean out in Nactional without too much fuss…and brought in new blood….why cant Little do the same for the Labour Party?

          • Manuka AOR 6.1.2.1.1

            I think this is A.L’s first big test. Particularly if it places him at odds with caucus. ..The question of deputy. It has to be his choice, his decision, ultimately. They are in this for the long haul.

      • Sabine 6.1.3

        sure lets pick the loosers and make them winners.

        why…the man lost twice….on the other side Nanaia actually delivered, did her job during the elections and has not back stabbed anyone? Grant Robertson and Jacintha Ardern can go ice fishing for a while. A long while. And when they decide that the Labour Party is not about them, but about the Citizens of this country and when they decide to not back stab those they don’t like, emphasize with, or insert whatever, they can earn a decent spot.

  7. Jenny Kirk 7

    Hah ! I thought that was what the “heh” was about ! Being deputy is not enough for Robertson – he needs to have something mighty to get his teeth into and show what mettle he really has, outside of the Beltway. That’s why I suggested finance for him.

    As to Parker : surely we know what his concerns are ? He doesn’t want to resile from his favourite policies – Capital gains tax, and raising super age, et al. Perhaps he’d be interested in Justice ?

    • Little’s most immediate task is the sacking of Grant Robertson.

      Its pretty clear now that he has been the main source of the instability in the Labour party and after all of the white anting of Little on display yesterday, its not going to stop.

      Robertson has to go and his whole damn Rainbow faction with him if necessary. The union boy Little has just gotta do what a man’s gotta do, and assert the authority that’s been lacking for so long.

      • Chooky 7.1.1

        …Redbaiter …Robertson should not be sacked!

        Robertson should be given something like Education to sink his teeth into and prove his worth for posterity…he is capable of implementing the huge Education reforms needed…like going back to before ‘Tomorrow’s Schools’ ….and free state education and tertiary education

        • Redbaiter 7.1.1.1

          You’re missing the point Chooky.

          Labour has just been through a series of leadership changes that have totally undermined its credibility with NZ voters. That credibility has to be regained.

          Little must stamp his authority on the party and also make it clear that it is united.

          Robertson and his faction have clearly been at the root of the destabilisation of both Shearer and Cunliffe and their reaction to Little’s win demonstrates that they are not finished yet.

          Labour need something cathartic to show the NZ voters that things have changed and they’re on a new and solid path forward.

          Little can achieve this by expelling Robertson and banishing his supporters to the outer. Not an easy thing I know, but it has to happen if Little is to achieve the success he needs to.

          Otherwise the voters are only going to see more of the same old infighting and the party overall going in the same direction. Backwards.

        • Murray Rawshark 7.1.1.2

          Redbaiter thinks 20 Shane Jones clones would make a good left party caucus. Try to ignore him.

      • Clemgeopin 7.1.2

        “after all of the white anting of Little on display yesterday, its not going to stop”

        What white anting of Little? What are you referring to? any links?

    • Treetop 7.2

      Education for Robertson as this will keep him busy. I could not believe what I read last week on Stuff, Parata is thinking about changing the decile ratings because national standards are lower in lower decile schools and the funding needs to change. Also I thought it premature to make the comment as national standards have not been around that long and further analysis is required.

      No point in changing the decile ratings as funding has to be attached to the pupil.

  8. BM 8

    Not attack or insult John Key.

    If Key or National fucks ups, the media will do the attacking, unless specifically asked for opinion you don’t need to stick your oar in.

    Don’t use words and phrases such as tory, banksters, capitalist running dog etc.

    • Blue 8.1

      If Key or National fucks ups, the media will do the attacking

      Hahahahaha! Oh, sorry, you were serious 😀

      When Key and National fuck up the media make sure it is glossed over, dismissed and forgotten within a few days or a week at most.

      Leaving our country’s fate in the limp, pallid hands of the media is the worst thing any Opposition could do.

      My advice to Andrew Little would be to ignore Key and play his own game. But Little is mature, experienced and level-headed enough that he likely doesn’t need such advice.

      • BM 8.1.1

        Tea tapes
        Dirty politics
        Rena
        Pike River
        Novopay
        Judith Collins
        Cabinet Club
        Political donations
        and so on.

        Christ, Katy Bradford came out after the election and said “We threw everything at them and it didn’t make a difference.

        I realize that unless Key is being verbally flogged by the media on an hourly basis ,in your eyes the media just aren’t dong their job, but the facts are there’s a lot of people working in the media who aren’t pushing the blue line.

        Little really doesn’t need to get involved.

        Little just needs to say IF ASKED is stuff like “that’s not really acceptable”, “wouldn’t happen under his watch”, “people of NZ deserve better”, “It really is amateur Hour”, etc.

        If you are going to say something less than positive, attack the government, don’t get personal.

        Also don’t do that ridiculous over the top ranting and faux outrage that Labour leaders are know to do, such as
        “this is the most corrupt thing ever to happen!”, “I’ve never been so angry in my life!”, “this is a “disgrace and children will die! …….

        No one believes you, it makes you look like a insincere pillock.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 8.1.1.1

          Where were you when National was in opposition. Because they were totally over the top.

        • ankerawshark 8.1.1.2

          BM @ 8.1.1. The trouble is the media also threw everything they had at Cunliffe and most of it was unfair, unwarranted and made up.

          • McFlock 8.1.1.2.1

            Indeed.

            Being forced to acknowledge the tip of the iceberg when it comes to National’s incompetence and corruption is apparently the media’s left-wing bias, inventing crises and character assassinations within Labour is molly-coddling them. From the perspective of Planet Key, anyway.

      • blue you are correct

        And when the right -wing press like Rougham .and his mates in the Herald tell our leader what he must do .tell the to piss of or pay the Labour party a fee to be able to participate . I am fed up to the teeth at the way these right -wing bastards think they know how we should run nour affairs. It;s time to return our party back to the Left where it belongs .

    • Sabine 8.2

      now now now BM as a national supporter and follower of Dear Leader I understand that , it is your task to worship at the altar of Dear Leader daily at least three times.

      However, it is our task as opposition to point out all the times he fucks up, lies,obfuscate, or when he is just a simple prick i.e. jokes about rapists and murders and the likes.

      now, I can see how someone who daily burns a candle or two in front of Dear Leaders effigy would consider it insulting if people were pointing out Dear Leaders shortcoming.

      One must consider that the man is not infallible and that he is the PM of all of New Zealanders. So it is not only our right but indeed our Duty to hold him to high standards, even if that means that it will upset the likes of you.

      • BM 8.2.1

        I think this post here sums it all up pretty well

        Andrew Little should…

        • Sabine 8.2.1.1

          mate, i am not a national supporter. i have voted Labour twice this year, the last year, the year before, and guess what….I liked it every single time.

          Labour supporter, Progressive and Union Card Holder. That is me, and I am very proud of it.

          So you go and try to make fun of the Labour Party, go ahead, but at the end of the day (TM), if you have an 8 hour day it is because of some Unionists that fought for it. If you have accident compensation and still a job after recovery it is because Unionists fought for it. If you have unemployment benefits it is because of Unionists that fought for it. If don’t compete with your Child for a job it is because of Unionist. If you have access and a right to retirement it is because of Unions and Labour Governments.
          Dear Leaders mother had access to a Statehouse because a Labour government build them, and if she had a right to a widowers benefit it is because of the Labour Party NZ, and not of the National Party.
          Mrs. Bennett had access to the Domestic Prupose benefit because of a Labour Government. Mrs. Bennett had access to a student allowance on the benefit because of a Labour Government, she had access to a cheap loan from the government to buy her first home because of a Labour Government.

          Every time you look at dear Leader, or Mrs. Bennett (future Dear Leader now that Collins has tanked) remember that both of them are where they are not because the social welfare state created by previous Labour Government did not work, but because the benefits and the state houses and the student allowances and the first home buyers low credits from the government worked.

          Your beloved Leader is the result of Labour NZ and the Unions of NZ.

          • Chch_chiquita 8.2.1.1.1

            Yet so many people are absolutely sure that their ability to negotiate an employment agreement is because their individual talents not because some unionists sometime in the past have fought and made changes to the laws so that bad employers could not exploit workers; because they are not workers, they are professionals with a career and they wear a suit (not an overall).

            Why are social studies and history not compulsory courses in high schools? Maybe that’s the first thing the LP’s education minister needs to do when it’s the Govt.

            • Tracey 8.2.1.1.1.1

              Indeed. Too much taken for granted.

              Most recent advancements, imo, havebeen from people like laila harre and sue bradford, neither of whom would be ashamed to be called unionists

  9. Not a PS Shark Sashimi 9

    “Urgently reach out to Young Labour and find ways to increase their role in the Party.”
    The NZ Council and Andrew needs to deveop a Youth Starategy and strategies for each of the 3rd level institutions. Perhaps a full-time development officer is required.

    The causes of our very low representation at 3rd levels, and with youth in general, is partially the brand but specifically the absence of a strategy. That strategy is the Leader’s and the NZ Council’s responsibility. The solution does not lie inside the current youth organisation.

    • OS sHARK.
      We will only bring in the youth when we come to some arrangement with the Greens.Because that is where the youth political ideals are . And I have been wondering if we should allow dual membership for some .I would like to have your comments on this before I summit it for a remit .

  10. Lanthanide 10

    Semi-radical idea: co-deputy leaders. Ardern and Mahuta.

    I really don’t like either by themselves, but together I think it’d be a very strong combination.

    • weka 10.1

      Would that need a constitution change?

    • vto 10.2

      that is a good idea

    • Not a PS Shark Sashimi 10.3

      Should we not wait until Ardern has performed well in her portfolio before promoting her?

      • Lanthanide 10.3.1

        Hence why I wouldn’t give her sole charge of the deputy leader slot.

        • Chooky 10.3.1.1

          Why are some people so keen to promote Adern?…..It doesn’t make sense…..Adern has not earned any position, nor has she been loyal…she has good dress sense… but does she appeal to Labour voters?…she appeals to the right wing

          …and definitely Not Deputy or co-Deputy!…why would Mahuta want to work with such a non performer? …would Adern just be there for show?….a very bad idea

          Minister for the Arts or a backbencher is the best place for her imo

          • Anne 10.3.1.1.1

            Why are some people so keen to promote Adern?…

            Because she is very attractive etc…..

            When she first appeared on the political scene I saw her as a potential future Helen Clark, but not for at least 10 years down the track. That was about six years ago. Since that time she has shown herself to be intelligent, diligent and a good speaker. But I don’t think she has the political strength to withstand the vicious negativity thrown at Labour from all quarters – negativity that will continue to be thrown over the next three years at least. An example of that is she was rarely able to score points off Paula Bennett at Question Time in the House.

            I see her as a future excellent minister though.

            Btw everyone: her name is Jacinda Ardern.

            • Tracey 10.3.1.1.1.1

              She appeared on tv opposite bridges didnt she? I always thought she aquitted herself well. I dont recall her foot spending any time in her mouth when in front of the media?

              • Anne

                Yes, she has a good media presence. That is one of her strengths. But I don’t believe she’s politically hardened enough to take on the big boys and girls – and that doesn’t just mean the top pollies. ( yeah, I know Bridges thinks he’s one of the big boys but to me he’s just and arrogant little s#*t still in short pants.)

                • Tracey

                  He hasnt improved much if at all from those days…

                  Bennett got showcased against Hughes as I recall.

                  It must be ten years ago, and she would have been around people like clark, king, dalzel and their ilk so i would bet her learning curve has been steep?

                • Chooky

                  @ Anne….yes i agree..”good media presence” and a “good solid performer ” is NOT sufficient when going up against the likes of Paula Bennett and representing Labour …it is sufficient however for a post of Minister of the Arts

                  ….in the Deputy for the Labour Party what is needed is:

                  …..charisma

                  ….and authenticity

                  ….and passion for the underdog

                  …you have to look like you have been there!

                  ….or you know at a gut level what it is like to be there!

                  ….and you have to have an appetite to be a fighter with all the dexterity and cunning of Winston Peters

                  …you have to appeal in a BIG way to Maori and women and the underclass…this means HEART and ADMIRATION appeal….not ho hum “good performer” appeal

                  • Anne

                    …it is sufficient however for a post of Minister of the Arts.

                    Oh, she’s worthy of more portfolios than just the Arts. She’s an extremely diligent worker – just needs a bit more time to hone her political skills against the Nat. bully boys and girls.

            • McFlock 10.3.1.1.1.2

              Having seen one or two speeches of her’s in the House, and seen her keen to have a few words with key professionals (as opposed to the head honchos) at a couple of functions, I think it’s a bit off to say that it’s just because of her looks.

              Frankly, I don’t get why some folks seem to have it in for her. Seems to be a solid, diligent, and articulate spokesperson to me.

              • Tracey

                Me too. Trying to recall any public foot in mouth moments from Ardern…

              • Anne

                Frankly, I don’t get why some folks seem to have it in for her. Seems to be a solid, diligent, and articulate spokesperson to me.

                If you’re referring to me McFlock then you didn’t read me properly. I made the same comments as yourself “she has shown herself to be intelligent, diligent and a good speaker”. She is a future leading politician, but I don’t think she is ready for the top jobs quite yet. It took 7-10 years for Helen Clark’s leadership potential to come through… and another 2-3 years before she got a shot at the top position.

                I was replying to a question of Chooky’s. Of course her attractiveness makes a difference to quite a lot of people. It’s shallow (and Jacinda would be the first to agree) and it includes a section of the MSM. It has nothing to do with “having it in for her” and it’s unfair to suggest as much.

                Jacinda’s time is coming.

                • McFlock

                  Literally the first thing you came up with in answer to the question as to why she has support within Labour was Ardern’s looks.

                  Anything after that is damning with faint praise, condescending, and shallow.

                  • Anne

                    I was referring to Labour voters (or potential voters) among the public – NOT Labour Party members. That’s how I interpreted Chooky’s original comment @10.3.1.1 when she referred to Labour voters.

                    Stop being so judgmental with your assumptions. I seem to remember you did it to me once before over something and you’ve done it to others on occasion.

                    I’ve met Jacinda on several occasions and I like her very much. Have you ever met her? Do you know her at all?

                    • McFlock

                      Have met once or twice, don’t know well, but she impressed more than most pollies. For the reasons I mentioned above.

                      I was referring to Labour voters (or potential voters) among the public – not Labour Party members.

                      And yet you pasted chook’s question “why are some people so keen to promote [sic]Adern”?

                      People promoting caucus members aren’t potential Labour voters.

                    • Chooky

                      Anne +100…you are always the voice of moderation and reason

                    • Anne

                      Well, whether you like it or not… I was referring to the public when I made my comments.

                      You can never accept that you may have taken something the wrong way can you. If I say there was no attempt to ‘belittle’ Jacinda then it is true. I see a big political future ahead for her, but I don’t think she’s quite ready for the top jobs yet.

                      And thank-you Chooky. I regard that as a real compliment.

                    • McFlock

                      I try to respond to what people actually wrote.

                      If that leads to misunderstanding, then people should write more clearly.

          • Murray Rawshark 10.3.1.1.2

            I don’t even think she has good dress sense. She dresses twenty years older than she is.
            Backbencher suits her well. Giving her Arts is not fair to artists. I haven’t seen her perform well at anything. When she was walking around with Cunliffe before the election, she could hardly crack a smile.

            • Chooky 10.3.1.1.2.1

              +100 Murray Rawshark….I admire your bluntness!….imo she looks like a conservative USA President’s wife…..and she threw her weight in behind Robertson….i would be very wary if i was Andrew Little…a scowl behind your back is very potent picture PR

              …agree giving her arts is not fair to artists!….many of NZ’s best and vanguard are radical ( not conservative) and Maori …eg Hotere, Shane Cotton, musicians

              ….I would be very happy with the Backbench ….however she does seem to have a following amongst the Robertson crowd….and some here think her diligence and media polish (imo to no real effect against the likes of Bennett or anyone else for that matter ) should be rewarded….so….(Backbench then …lol…you have me persuaded)…what about Trade and Industry?

  11. Ron 11

    In my opinion I think he should use some of the new talent that has come recently into labour. Poto Williams, Jenny Slaesa, Kelvin Davis for starters. Make better use of Phil Twyford he is one of the stars of the last year of difficult times and deserves to be recognised. Retire some of the old hands to the back benches, I thought at first they could be used to guide the new MP’s but I think that they may be so toxic they would pollute newcomers so I would prefer they just go to the back and be quite clear that they will not be expected to run again in 2017. We need new blood heaps of it and we should be looking to attract new people to stand for the party in 2017

  12. ghostwhowalksnz 12

    Since by getting a a few caucus first pref votes, Andrew hasnt been horsetrading to get the job, so he can appoint a front bench based on ability, not favouritism

  13. Not a PS Shark Sashimi 13

    Ask David Parker to change his mind and take on finance again.
    Ask Grant Robertson to be deputy.

    Nah!
    Nah!

  14. My main thing would be to keep fronting media – be everywhere for quite some time.

    This is going to be tricky, as he needs to do all that back room organisation, setting up his office, organising his team of MPs etc. But if he doesn’t, National will define him, rather than getting to define himself.
    He’s made a good start, but he can’t disappear like Cunliffe did, and let National’s narrative take hold.

  15. Nic the NZer 15

    If DP is some how convinced to become finance minister then there will be a compromise, and Labour will wind up with the policies of a CGT, and raising the retirement age to run on again! And then Labour will not be elected again.

    Policy babies, FFS. Your supposed to introduce good policy which achieves results, not policy which is both destructive and unpopular!

  16. weka 16

    “Ask Nanaia Mahuta to take on social welfare.”

    Can you expand on that r0b?

    • r0b 16.1

      There isn’t a “social welfare” portfolio in National’s lineup (as far as I know), but I think Mahuta should take on that role in Labour (match Paula Bennet). She represents those who are most dependent on welfare, and can speak with authority and mana on welfare issues.

      • weka 16.1.1

        I agree that Labour need someone working specifically on social welfare (you mean WINZ, beneficiaries etc right?)

        Can you be more specific about work Mahuta has done on welfare already? Or point me in the direction where I could look some things up?

        • Lanthanide 16.1.1.1

          She said some things in the Labour 2014 campaign opening video…

        • r0b 16.1.1.2

          I agree that Labour need someone working specifically on social welfare (you mean WINZ, beneficiaries etc right?)

          Right.

          Can you be more specific about work Mahuta has done on welfare already? Or point me in the direction where I could look some things up?

          As far as I know she hasn’t done anything. However, the point has been made that the demographics that give Labour most support are women, and the Maori and PI communities. The latter are also the main victims of Nat beneficiary bashing. They need a high profile champion that they can believe in, and I think that Mahuta has earned that right.

          • weka 16.1.1.2.1

            Mmm, I’m not convinced. Mostly because of her reply to the welfare questions in her Q and A.

            Do you intend for Labour to develop policy specific to Work and Income beneficiaries, esp those who are not in a position to enter the workforce? (as opposed to policy directed towards low income people in general). Will you support Labour rolling back the worst of the Paula Bennett welfare reforms?

            How do you intend for Labour to address the cultural and structural problems within Work and Income? How do you intend for Labour to address the wider society cultural issues regarding welfare eg the bludger memes?

            The team I lead will be highy motivated to present an alternative economic vision where regional development will provide tangible opportunities for the productive sector to grow jobs and transition to a low carbon economy, we will further establish credibility and support for education and training investment and ensure that our public health and education system become a hallmark of a caring society and where opportunity is available to all.

            There is nothing in her reply that addresses the questions asked. At a guess I would say she is saying that the solutions to welfare, the bludger meme, the Bennett reforms etc lie in job creation, training for jobs, and improving public health services. If that’s true, then she shouldn’t be the welfare shadow minister. It’s bludger meme lite, the welfare equivalent of Nat stabs us in the front, Labour stabs us in the back.

            I’m open to being wrong about my interpretation (her answer came across as PR speak from someone not used to the standard so am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt). Would still like to see some evidence of what she actually thinks about welfare. I am mindful too that some Māori see welfare as detrimental to Māori, so would want to see her clarify that.

            • McFlock 16.1.1.2.1.1

              yeah. I think that we need to get out of the tory “work makes you free” mentality when it comes to social well-being/welfare. Beneficiaries need more advocates in parliament.

              If the economy does well, there will be fewer unemployed people, but there will always be people who for whatever reason cannot work fulltime to support themselves and their families. This might be a temporary or longer-term condition for each person, but the entire point of society is that we each help others when we can. The hardship being inflicted on society’s most vulnerable is obvious through the numbers of homeless, beggars, food bank use, and child poverty. The last thirty years have been a fucking disgrace to us as a nation.

              • Dialey

                “Work makes free” not Tory but Nazi.
                From Wikipedia:
                “Arbeit macht frei is …the slogan known for having been placed over the entrances to a number of Nazi concentration camps during World War II, including most infamously Auschwitz.
                The expression comes from the title of a novel by German philologist Lorenz Diefenbach, Arbeit macht frei: Erzählung von Lorenz Diefenbach (1873), in which gamblers and fraudsters find the path to virtue through labour.”

                I find it ironic that gamblers and fraudsters are redeemed by labour – sounds like something Team Key need a dose of….

              • Correct McFlock Just have a look at Hamilton to see the result of Roger and Ruth’s economics . I feel sad about how this former lovely city now has beggers and homeless people wandering around aimlessly . Shops all closing and its looking dirty . W

      • goodsweat 16.1.2

        I agree. Lifting that sector’s lot in life is important. Again, to enjoy popular support I think any spokespersons push for improvements should focus on increased opportunities as opposed to 50 extra bucks.

        Opportunities for training in fields for which there is a well paid demand. Opportunities for the sick to get well. Opportunities for the person with no legs to become a valuable part of a software writing team. Opportunities to access assistance to rid bad habits – drug addiction, alcoholism. etc.

        • weka 16.1.2.1

          In other words, opportunities to make all people able bodied and working in paid jobs. Which means the people that aren’t able to do that (for very valid reasons) can get fucked.

          • goodsweat 16.1.2.1.1

            You seem very bitter Weka, I’m sorry. I live in the same place as you and I’m surrounded by a fabulous array of endless opportunities. I sometimes wonder if it’s just my attitude but it’s an outlook that just keeps on delivering.

            I think every single person should feel like a valuable contributing member of a society. It sounds like you wish to facilitate a path for people that are committed to feeling sorry for themselves. I’m not sure that’s a great way forward.

            Yes some people are paraplegics, yes some people can’t make it to the bedroom door without collapsing. They are few and of course we should be doing all we can to be helping people like this. Their carers need more $ as do they. Engaging more of the able in society will make this possible.

            • weka 16.1.2.1.1.1

              You seem very fucked in the head goodsweat (how you got all that from two sentences I don’t know, but I’m guessing I just triggered some of your reactionary prejudices). I don’t have feelings about that one way or the other.

              I also live in a place with a fabulous array of endless opportunities. Some people are denied those opportunities, too many people. You appear to think the solution to that is to make people work. This denies reality, which is that society is as dependent on unpaid work as much as it is on paid work. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem here is the bludger meme and you appear to want to soften the tone but not actually counter it.

              You also have some barrier-inducing ideas about disability. Addiction is not a bad habit. Not all sick people can be made better. Disability is by and large created by society where it deems what is normal and expects everyone to at least try and be that. You are perpetuating that. You don’t get to define what disabled people should be doing, people with disabilities are more than capable of doing that themselves.

              Not all people should be expected to take on paid work. Unlike you I’m not going to limit that to severely disabled people. I’m also talking about people that need time to recover, or people that are raising kids on their own, or people that are giving a lot to their communities voluntarily, people who have worked 40 years and need to stop etc etc.

              When you define value as being in paid work (or training for that, or being exempt from that) you do a number of things. One is that you structurally create disparity bbetween those that can and those that can’t/shouldn’t. What follows from this is prejudice.

              The other is that you limit communities and prevent them from functioning in healthy, organic ways. Instead you impose ideology that prevents people from doing what is best, individually and collectively.

              • goodsweat

                Feeling like a contributing member of a society and being in paid work are most definitely not the same thing.

                Over and over around the modern world it is being proven that the best way to approach alcohol and drug habits, addictions (…splitting stupid curly hairs over semantics.) is treating them first and foremost as health issues.

                I read through what you had to say Weka, the horrid things you feel compelled to say to me. I was again left feeling grateful that I don’t share your bitter and ugly view of the world. I love you Weka.

                • weka

                  🙄 at the passive aggressive shit.

                  “Feeling like a contributing member of a society and being in paid work are most definitely not the same thing.”

                  That’s right. Your original comment was almost wholly focussed on making people work ready.

                  So I’m calling you out on your attitudes that are reinforcing memes that create prejudice against people that don’t fit societal norms of what is a valid contribution (you’ve now shifted the goal post, it’s not just paid work, but it’s still a definition of what is acceptable). You obviously have some ideas what counts as a contribution, which is fine, add your voice to the mix. But expect to be challenged where you start making definitions for whole classes of people eg addicts. Not all addicts are going to fit into your world view about addiction (bad habits, health issue, not sure what it is exactly), but you seem to want to have the government define what is a valid place in the world and what is not. Huge irony given you are all about the love and shit. Try non-judgement and compassion instead.

                  Myself, I don’t think the government can or should define what is acceptable contribution. All people deserve support and a place in society. All. When you start from that base, then by far the majority of people will contribute in ways that work within their own family and community context with the flow on effects to wider society. The few that don’t, you don’t have to worry about them. But if on the other hand, you start from a place of fear about people not contributing, you actually build barriers to whole bunch of people being able to do so. And the flow on effects to wider society from that.

                  • goodsweat

                    Me: “Feeling like a contributing member of a society and being in paid work are most definitely not the same thing.”

                    You: “That’s right. Your original comment was almost wholly focussed on making people work ready.”

                    For your position to have some weight it hinges on our discourse above being true. 1 mention is about general employment opportunities, a comment with a wage rise emphasis. The other about opportunities for those that face life changing events to re-train.

                    The person that views my ideas below as evil and wrong has a sad outlook on the world…I still love you.

                    “Opportunities for training in fields for which there is a well paid demand. Opportunities for the sick to get well. Opportunities for the person with no legs to become a valuable part of a software writing team. Opportunities to access assistance to rid bad habits – drug addiction, alcoholism. etc.”

                    • weka

                      “For your position to have some weight it hinges on our discourse above being true. 1 mention is about general employment opportunities, a comment with a wage rise emphasis. The other about opportunities for those that face life changing events to re-train.”

                      how is that not about paid employment?

                      You’re still missing the point. If the govt decides what is a valid contribution, then people that don’t fit into that will be marginalised.

                      It’s in the things you aren’t saying. If I’m wrong, then just clarify that all people deserve support and a place in society irrespective of their contribution.

                • DoublePlusGood

                  Wow, that’s condescending, obnoxious and missed just about every point weka made. Go have a colonic or something, because you’re full of shit.

                  • goodsweat

                    Do you find “You must be very fucked in the head Double plus good” a perfectly acceptable way to commence a conversation with someone you haven’t met before?

                    • McFlock

                      When the individual concerned is obviously fucked in the head yet seems to be unaware of their condition, it’s only common courtesy to inform them of such. If only so they can attempt to stop being so fucked in the head.

                    • weka

                      I’m just trying to figure out if the almost complete lack of self awareness is real or faux.

                      gs, my line about you being fucked in the head is a direct response, copy and paste rephrasing to make a point, that mirrors how you first talked to me in the comment immediately before. It was also a parody.

                      goodsweat,

                      “You seem very bitter Weka, I’m sorry.”

                      weka,

                      “You seem very fucked in the head goodsweat… I don’t have feelings about that one way or the other.”

                  • weka

                    lol. For someone allegedly so full of love they really do have a lot of nasty ad hominems oozing out.

                    • goodsweat

                      Yeah, that is sort of what your point has become hey weka. A few last random gobs of spit in my face.

                      I still love you….[RL: Deleted. Too far]

              • Murray Rawshark

                You’ve noticed it too. He may just be naive, or maybe he reflects what’s happened to our society and most people do actually believe work is the solution to everything. If true, that’s incredibly sad and worrying.

                • weka

                  That’s why I came down so hard on them in the other thread. It’s the bludger lite meme that worries me. The outright bigots are easy to spot. It’s the ones who end up supporting them as long as they tone it down a bit that are the problem.

            • Tracey 16.1.2.1.1.2

              And yet you voted for national, who begrudge the ill and disabled more than subsistence so as not to discourage them from getting jobs they cannot, physically, ever do.

      • Treetop 16.1.3

        What about the Maori caucus within Labour having a strategic 5 year plan and consolildating the main issues which are affecting their voters as Labour hold 5 Maori seats?

        This may have some persuation/affect on the Maori Party being a coalition partner and it will be harder for Key to ignore the issues which the Maori MPs are concerned about.

        Exactly what does the Maori caucus do?

  17. Ant 17

    Taking back the “work” narrative is pretty important. National won it uncontested (at the very least challenge them for it).

  18. Atiawa 18

    Forget about personalities within caucus and cuddling up to this or that person.
    If you’ve got what it takes to hold an effective front bench position and you are prepared to work harder then the leader, then in my book you’re in!

  19. goodsweat 19

    I think this thread is a prime example of what ails the Labour Party.

    A circle of people with linked arms all facing each other. Bickering over the floor-plan for the deckchair arrangement on the foredeck of the Titanic.

    ‘Unlink, turn 180 degrees. Link up again. Those 4.5 million people out there, that’s got to be the focus. How do we seduce them? To hell with each other, you guys are horrors.

    • Bill 19.1

      Thinking I’m not going to disagree with those sentiments goodsweat.

    • weka 19.2

      goodsweat, how many people here are members of the Labour party?

      “A circle of people with linked arms all facing each other. Bickering over the floor-plan for the deckchair arrangement on the foredeck of the Titanic.”

      And you’re not part of that? You look like you are criticising people for criticising people. I’m all for us doing something proactive and constructive, I just don’t see how you telling people off makes that more likely to happen.

    • Tracey 19.3

      How do we seduce them…

      You voted Right in the last election sweaty… And you tell people here how you and they can fix the shit you voted for…

      • Clemgeopin 19.3.1

        “You voted Right in the last election sweaty”…

        How do you know? Did he say that? I missed that.

        • Murray Rawshark 19.3.1.1

          Yep. He said that. He thought that the sort of ideal social democratic society he experienced in Sweden could best be realised by Keycorp.

  20. Olwyn 20

    One thing I do not want to see is the “David Cunliffe has been sent to Coventry and must remain there” attitude endorsed. Perhaps it would be considered too provocative to give him the finance or deputy positions at this stage, but he must not be sidelined. And two people I would like to see with something substantial are Phil Twyford and Carmel Sepuloni. Something good that has come out of this election is that the two main sources of traditional Labour support have been brought to the fore – the social progressives and the unions. The unions won by a whisker, in my opinion, because it is in their field that the pain is currently most acute. But it was close, and these two groups must now function primarily as allies, not as opponents.

  21. Bill 21

    There really is only one ‘should’, and it goes like this – “Do what you’re going to do, and do it well.”

  22. millsy 22

    1) Get rid of Robertson.
    2) See (1)
    3) Kelvin Davis – Education/Maori Affairs
    4) Focus on R and D/innovation and training – this fits in with his industry background.
    5) Dont fluff the first question time as leader. The election will be won or lost on that.
    6) Find somewhere other than New Plymouth to stand.
    7) Dont ditch NZ Inc.

  23. Skinny 23

    Look I don’t mean to be rude Mr Robins but many of your idea’s are why Labour is ‘dead’ I say dead because the party has flat lined too many like my partner & myself. Some of the things your suggesting are beyond me.

    Robertson as deputy ‘again’ what happened last time with Shearer? He cunningly undermined him in my opinion. I’ve seen the influence the Raindow section have within the party and frankly their out of touch. Little needs to trim back this sector’s power, or positions especially the beltway lot.

    “Sometime crazy purge talk” for goodness man people like you need to get real and except that many of the MP’s like Goff, King, Mallard, Cosgrove and even good Lefties like Moroney need to make way for young talent.

    The low numbers of Maori enrolled on the Maori roll and the low turn out of Maori voters on both rolls in general suggests it’s time to abolish the Maori roll. It’s obvious it isn’t working, nor does this group feel the Labour party is for them by not attracting party votes.

    Why is because I believe Maori see all the middle aged (and older) white men running the party, my Scotish partner pointed this out to me last night when she told me she
    refused to vote in the leadership battle and is over Labour for now.

    So by the LP chasing the ‘elusive’ middle voters aswell as promoting their social policies (which will benefit Maori) it is mixed messaging, compromising to both bloc’s of voters, which just distances many of them by not enough of one or too much to the other.

    Now that Mahuta has finally found her voice she should be encouraged to set up her own party well in advance of the next election. If National can have their offshoot ACT, why isn’t Labour combating with an offshoot party lead by a Maori leader targeted at Maori. 5% is very achievable and then it’s game on even based on this years election.

    • BM 23.1

      I doubt Labour is really aiming for government in 2017.

      There’s going to be lots of blood split and upset individuals and factions over the next couple of years.
      I’d say the chances of a spin off party/parties of some type, either left or right is quite high.

      Little will win in the end though because he’s the unions man and they control the purse strings.

      • felix 23.1.1

        You guys really should stop attacking or insulting Andrew Little.

        etc.

        • BM 23.1.1.1

          Honestly, I’m not trying to insult the man, I do believe he’s the best choice for labour.

          As you know, labour does suffer from factional issues, Little will sort those out once and for all.

          • McFlock 23.1.1.1.1

            thanks for your concern. /sarc

            • BM 23.1.1.1.1.1

              Is the labour party a closed group, is no one outside the clique allowed to comment.?

              • felix

                No-one who wants to destroy the party has to be listened to, that’s the thing.

              • McFlock

                A question that is somewhat irrelevant to the point I implied, which is that any Labour party member or person on the left should regard every single one of your comments as a crude attempt at psychological warfare and designed to sow division and despondency amongst Labour and the Left in general.

                Any relationship your comments might have with reality should be regarded as purely coincidental. I believe you are prepared to outright lie as a matter of course, and then tell the truth so that people think that the truth is a lie and vice versa.

                Fortunately, I also believe that most lefties here already have this or a similar opinion about you, so on the bright side your efforts are largely wasted here rather than being expended somewhere that they might actually assist your politics of callous greed.

  24. Bill 24

    …why isn’t Labour combating with an offshoot party…

    Three words.

    Mana. Labour. Torpedo.

    • Skinny 24.1

      Mana failed because Hone is a fuckwit. Too hot headed basically. Mahuta has plenty of mana within Maori. Under the current Maori Seats and the majority Mahuta holds she would easily win and the Left are in business bigtime. One seat and leave the rest to Labour. Party Vote brings in say another 3 or 4.

      • DoublePlusGood 24.1.1

        Mana failed because Labour decided to basically completely fail at MMP and let Kelvin Davis go nuts.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 24.1.1.1

          No NO.
          It was national which did deals on electorate seats, labour had a private members bill in the house to abolish this sort of MMP horsetrading.

          Hone lost his seat because the voters didnt want him

        • Skinny 24.1.1.2

          That’s a nonsense lardarse!

          1. Labour failed to remove deadwood thus putting Davis in a in or out position. Win seat or out if the party vote didn’t return near 30%.

          2. Previous Hone voters thought he was getting too big for his boots and spending too much time out of his Electorate. Meanwhile Kelvin was very visible out and about working hard for his Rohe, people were very impressed Kelvin & his Labour team were fund raising delivering food parcels during the 2 winter floods. Meanwhile Hone was galavanting around the country with a rich German conman.

          3. Both Hone & Kelvin are related to many within their Rohe. People admired Kelvin’s fortitude to hang in there and contest the electorate after being beaten 3 times previously. Including losing a relatively close contest the previous election i.e The writing was on the wall if Hone goofed off, which he did.

          4. The hook up with Dotcom went down like a dead ballon. Sue Bradford walking out in disgust alarmed many, including Maori in the North who were calling Hone a sell out by not sticking to the kopapa.

          5. Hone was weak on the ground in the West Auckland part of his seat and Labour were very strong. With Pita retiring from his Auckland Maori seat Mana needed a high profile candidate with a strong campaign team behind team, someone like Ma Davidson.

          • greywarshark 24.1.1.2.1

            @ Skinny
            If his rohe had trusted Hone to do the best for the Mana Party, get into Parliament and then do the best for them, they would likely have done well. Getting a wealthy backer who was linked in to the technological future that would open the way for Maori business advancement would seem a good idea. Hone and his group of advisers were not to know the twists and turns and capacity of Kim to put his foot in his mouth, though I am sure they understood there would be problems.

            Kelvin already had a large organisation behind him.

            And it’s kaupapa by the way, if you are going to be very linked in to Maori and their aspirations. One is to have pakeha and tauiwi respect their language and culture.

          • weka 24.1.1.2.2

            “4. The hook up with Dotcom went down like a dead ballon. Sue Bradford walking out in disgust alarmed many, including Maori in the North who were calling Hone a sell out by not sticking to the kopapa.”

            What are you basing that on Skinny? Harawira and Mana both increased their vote this time compared to last.

            • Skinny 24.1.1.2.2.1

              Put the rise down to the fall of the sellout Maori Party. In desperation after attending the Dot-Bomb event I put out a press release endorsing a vote for Hone in his seat sighting political meddling. The night before polling day Gerard Heir Mana campaign manager called me with a SOS to rally my network to help in West Auckland. I knew then that things were very grim and a loss was certain for Mana.

              Kelvin came and saw myself and others election day, he was nervous, I reassured him that in my opinion he was already home and to ignore my endorsement, it was for the young ones who I stood side by side in the rain on a picket against Key & co, and big ups they campaigned hard throughout the election.

              • weka

                “Put the rise down to the fall of the sellout Maori Party”

                yes, of course. Just still not sure how you can say that Mana + KDC meant the Mana/Harawira support tanked.

                • Skinny

                  Honestly what can you expect when your representing a area with the highest deprivation level in the land. And some of your people attend a Mana/ Internet roadshow and see a rich dude traveling in opulent luxury while many of the poor travel to the gig in a rickerty old bus. Chalkb& cheese my friend, and who blames those with the green eyes of envy. Just a pity Key never got the same treatment rather than admiration. Go figure!

                  • weka

                    Yeah I get all that, just not convinced that the alliance was the reason Harawira lost his seat, or at least not in the way you are implying.

                  • greywarshark

                    I would think if I lived way north, and saw Kim an Hone, hey that’s good, someone with some money is taking an interest in our area. Let’s find out how to milk him while it lasts. We can’t do worse than what we have now.

                    That is what eager beaver Maori would think. It’s why yek got welcomed into the NACTs. They thought – he’s got money. He’s got nous. He can put a message over to the peeps. He can win and give us what we want. Unfortunately Kim put his big foot in his mouth a couple of times and he recognised that, too late. So it prevented a win, plus a lot of opposition from the superior, noble, Labour Party that wanted to stand proud and alone.

                    Labour was like a toddler pulling away from parents help, ‘No I’ll put on my own socks, tights’ or whatever. Infuriating, time-wasting and ultimately failed effort.

      • Treetop 24.1.2

        I heard on TV a few weeks back that Hone employed a person who had allegations of sexual assault against him. The community would have been in the know and have had enough sexual predators in the electorate.

        Bad judgement on Hone’s part; even though I like him as an MP, (radical/activist) and knows about feeding hungry children which enables them to absorb more in the classroom.

        Go for it if you want to when it comes to being an allegation and not having been found guilty. Need to check if the person has been charged.

        I think that Hone would have won and I feel that Davis knew about the rumour because he took a stand on sexual assault making it on his short list of three concerns.

  25. b waghorn 25

    Connect with rural nz Damian O’Connor for M-ag

  26. les 26

    Robertson looking like he will continue playing the NZ equivalent of Kevin Rudd in the Labour Party.Demote him but give him a challenging portfolio to keep him very busy.

  27. SPC 27

    Ask Shearer to be deputy.

    Being very much aware that he cannot win a party wide contest. He does not contest them. And being a past leader he has the standing.

    The Labour Bill.

    • Lanthanide 27.1

      Except Shearer still can’t front media interviews to save himself.

      • SPC 27.1.1

        The deputy hardly ever does them, not a problem.

        • Lanthanide 27.1.1.1

          Meaning that when he does, he needs to leave a good impression, otherwise he’ll only be remembered by the public as a bumbling incompetent.

    • ankerawshark 27.2

      Shearer has complaints against him for his outburst against Cunliffe after the election. It showed extremely poor judgement. No good for Deputy.

      Actually truth is I think Mr Little is very astute and will make excellent choices re shadow cabinet.

  28. Tracey 28

    passion. Show passion.

  29. Sabine 29

    Oh look at all those peeps so concerned about the well being of the Labour Party.

    thanks guys.

  30. Cave Johnson 30

    Trotter on radio bagging Labour and Little again as I write this. Rodney Hide was more encouraging…

    • Murray Rawshark 30.1

      Trotter loves history. He should become part of it.

      • Treetop 30.1.1

        Trotter leaves me a bit confused as he changes who he backs like the wind.

        • Cave Johnson 30.1.1.1

          Yes, reading Trotter’s blog you’d think he was for Little. Listening to him on the radio you’d swear he wanted Gracinda to win and that Little’s victory is a tragedy. I’d like to see Little sit down for a beer with Trotts and remind him that they have a lot of values in common
          .
          Even when Trotter did speak up for the unions on the panel, after seeming to criticise Little for relying on their votes, he did it in negative terms. Rather than reminding everyone what the Union movement has delivered over the years he talked only about what they are not (thugs, mafia etc) so as a supposedly pro-Union voice he completely failed PR101. I suppose I’m being a bit harsh on that count as he doesn’t set out to be a PR king, but when he started to talk about it I was almost ready to shout at the radio. The Unions deserve our undying gratitude for the quality of life improvements they have delivered. The recent examples of gas station attendants being docked for driveaways shows what happens when the Unions are weak. I’d like to see Little highlight the excesses of capitalism and appeal to the public’s sense of fair play.
          .
          Also, this piece (and other similar) from Trotter’s blog seems confused: “The Labour Left’s uncertainty about the Robertson Faction’s true ideological colours goes a long way to explaining Little’s narrow victory.” – I don’t get a sense that many doubt Grant’s lefty credentials at all. I’m not a fan and yet I certainly don’t. It’s the perception of disloyalty to DC that seemed to count most against him. Trotter also very firmly stated on the panel that Gran’t being gay had no impact, and I think that is massively naive.
          .
          Trotter goes on to say that Little’s victory is effectively a win for the Left, but he finds it worrying how narrow that win was since the other side (Gracinda) were more likely to join the neolibs. In defiance of any neolib resurgence I’d like to see Little champion a steadily increasing minimum wage, restrict zero hours contracts, and make penal rates compulsory after 40 hours.

          • Clemgeopin 30.1.1.1.1

            The Unions deserve our undying gratitude for the quality of life improvements they have delivered. The recent examples of gas station attendants being docked for driveaways shows what happens when the Unions are weak. I’d like to see Little highlight the excesses of capitalism and appeal to the public’s sense of fair play

            +1. You make excellent points. Little will be a big leader.

  31. greywarshark 31

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/11/19/too-close-for-comfort-reflections-on-andrew-littles-narrow-victory-over-grant-robertson/

    Great photo of Jacinda and Grant in Trotter’s piece. A sad end for their assiduous work. And for all the young ones fired up looking for a sexy, forward-moving Labour. And representing what policies? I’m not sure and haven’t followed Robertson et al. But they must have been acceptable to the young middle-class moderate left that Wayne Mapp mentioned in Josie Pagani’s piece on Pundit that Lynn spoke to yesterday.
    (Incidentally it looks as if they don’t like people using pseudonyms. I am waiting to be accepted as greywarbler. I don’t get more money of contacts if I gain notoriety from my name being published, more likely the opposite. And having opinions is scaring the horses if you know numbers of people with anodyne beliefs.)

    I think Andrew getting the strong vote from the unions reflects the real ‘workers’ in our society that Labour was started to serve. Many of the young middle class have never been near real work. Just think, to earn your money to go to uni you used to go and work on the wharves, and on meat chains, if you were male. Females probably went waitressing or found factory work. Now you borrow and hope you can repay it from your hopefully increased pay from having a professional degree.

    Robertson and co. won by 5-7% on each of the caucus and members colleges. That has been lauded as a great margin. It isn’t. But they would have won without the reduced 20% section for the unions, which indeed gave Little a large margin over Robertson. Face up to it Little was popular with in all of the three sections, not a winner in two, but not a lame duck there either.

    • BM 31.1

      Real work is not just being on the end of a shovel or cleaning up other peoples skid marks.

      One of the main problems in NZ is the lack of value placed on any non- manual work.

    • Tracey 31.2

      And get jobs through people their parents know

    • Murray Rawshark 31.3

      Trotter is really down on unions this week. That’s a problem I see with many on the academic left – they don’t have struggle in their bones. The struggle to finish an article before a deadline cannot be compared to the struggle of the picket line.

  32. Tracey 32

    Listener article about Andrew Little. Worth a read if you dont know much about him.
    http://www.listener.co.nz/commentary/andrew-little-interview/

    • greywarshark 32.1

      @ Tracey
      Thanks for that link.

    • Clemgeopin 32.2

      I liked the article, but especially what he says here:
      “If we don’t want the extremes of wealth to start fracturing our society, we’re going to have to do things differently. Do we have a great lifestyle? Sure we do.

      Does everybody have access to that lifestyle? No. Are there some deep-seated problems that are driven by poverty and hardship? Sure there are,” he says, in campaign mode. “You cannot talk about those poverty- and hardship-driven issues without talking about incomes and the distribution of wealth.”

      That sort of talk does frighten the horses these days. “Yeah, well, we talk about freedom of choice. There’s no freedom in poverty and there’s no freedom in hardship.”

      National has played cannily on feelings of disenchantment with politicians by at least appearing to have a light touch. That’s not a game Little wants to play. “That whole right-wing thing about small government discredits the political system. I think that’s incredibly anti-democratic. We have a political system because decisions have to be made in the wider public interest. That continual discrediting of the political firmament plays, not to be too dramatic about it, to very fascistic tendencies,” he says. “It goes hand in hand with that sort of frivolous approach to government and leadership that this Government is branding itself with. That everything is just ‘We’ll just laugh it off, we’ll just be a celebrity.”

      This disdain for personality politics is, depending on your point of view, a bit out of touch with reality or quite refreshing. In this, if not much else, Little may be a bit like his dad parading along the beach. He’s not bothered about how it looks. He’s too busy running his own race.

      “The old thing of maximise freedom, minimise oppression – these are not things that can be dealt with lightly and frivolously,” he says. “If that makes politicians look pretty dour and boring, well, so what?”

  33. cd i just note that those sneering at little ‘cos of his choice of shirts..

    ..are only displaying their lack of fashion nous..

    ..little is strutting the urban-lumberjack look..which is very big/hot right now..

    ..(stick a beanie on him and hipsters will be falling over themselves..)

    ..so little should ignore those trying to shoehorn him back into bland block-coloured shirts..

    ..checks rule..!

    (disclaimer:..but as for his insistance on the sleveless-pullover..i’m not going there..!..)

  34. Enough is Enough 34

    Reject Neoliberalism and corporatism in all their forms

  35. feijoa 35

    Little should pick anyone who can step up and behave like a member of the Opposition. You know, like, give the government hell. Hard, I know. No one in Labour’s done it for 6 years…………

  36. Luka MP 36

    Ask Grant to resign,

  37. the pigman 37

    Little should stand in Ohariu, get in there and slit Dunne’s throat (figuratively, of course).

    He’s from Wellington, not New Plymouth, and Ohariu is highly winnable with a bit of strategy from the collective Left (particularly if a party leader is involved). He should announce that he’s gonna stand there at the earliest possible (tomorrow preferably) with the explicit intention of getting rid of Dunne. I think it would create a stark and unignorable image of a leader who’s there to win and get it done.

    Dunne gone would be a good thing.

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