Another Nat secret agenda tape

Written By: - Date published: 3:19 pm, November 4th, 2008 - 121 comments
Categories: activism, election 2008, national - Tags:

The Herald campaign updates reports that Clark has just had a private interview with TV3, appearently getting her response to the latest secret agenda tape. Guess that means it will be on TV3 tonight.

According to the Herald, a reporter at the conference asked the PM if she thinks the public is sick of having National’s secret agenda revealed by these tapes. Clark, reasonably enough, responded “I have no idea but obviously it is attracting your interest.”

[update: I didn’t get it word for word but the tape was of Bill English saying he was worried about Obama, didn’t like his moralistic apporach to foreign relations, thought the war in Iraq was a good idea. Said Bush should have put a different window dressing on it but you have to have someone who’s ready to pull the trigger. I’ll do some analysis later if none of the others have, it’s beer o’clock]

121 comments on “Another Nat secret agenda tape”

  1. Daveski 1

    When the review meeting is taking place, one can only hope for Labour’s sake that they will realise one of the key (ha ha) contributors to the election failure was their negative, and personality-driven campaign.

  2. gobsmacked 2

    Newstalk ZB are reporting this now as well. Apparently Helen Clark is grinning from ear to ear.

    Cup sweepstake anyone? Starting prices:

    Bill English saying “I want Winston in cabinet” 2.00

    John Key saying “Epsom’s a shit hole, Rodney can have it” 5.00

    Judith Collins saying “Sarah Palin is my role model” 20.00

    Lockwood says white men have little ones 100.00

  3. Daveski 3

    gs – I shouldn’t have but I laughed

  4. Ianmac 4

    Vidiot: Maybe this is it! A bit of passion from John. But please not a repeat of “this is just Labour digging dirt…..”

  5. exbrethren 5

    “….their negative, and personality-driven campaign.”

    What unlike the Nats “everything about NZ is shit and JOhn Key is the answer to everything”

  6. Lampie 6

    *coughs up $5*

    I think Key would be a runner hahaha

  7. Pat 7

    Presumably, since it has been saved for the last week, it must be the “best” one.

    I hope it passed the Mike Williams smear test.

  8. IrishBill 8

    Steve, I just read the Herald story and it looks like it wasn’t the Herald who asked the question but another reporter. I’ll make the change.

  9. gobsmacked, classic.

    there was talk of a racist tape but was that the tape of Lockwood’s comments? an’t remember when that rumour was going around

  10. Patrick 10

    Hrm, given recent experience I’m expecting this to be a bit of a fizzer, but you never know…

  11. exbrethren 11

    “Lets offer Owen G the Monaco job if he stirs things up” $15

  12. forgetaboutthelastone 12

    well we haven’t heard from the big JK yet. Anything from him would be interesting.

  13. Gary R 13

    How typical to release another tape, this covers nicely the fact that Labour have no fresh ideas or policies to release. Best just to try and discredit the other side eh?

  14. Lew 14

    “If we can get the bloody Maoris on side we’ll be sweet” for $25.

    L

  15. Daveski 15

    “Did Mike Williams pay go through this week? He’s exceeding my expectations.” $250 (but I’ve covered it in my multiples)

  16. IrishBill 16

    John Key: “I’m just not that k.een on the job anymore.” $45

  17. Carol 17

    Bomber Bradbury says it’s Bill English on tape. Labour have released a ton of policies, and with more details than the Nats skimpy policies.

    And like the Nats haven’t been trying to smear Clark & Labour for the last couple of years?

  18. coge 18

    A conference is trespassed, someone deliberately misrepresents themselves, & then breeches an expectation of frank privacy. And which party has chosen to nail their colours to such a modus operandi? Need I go on?

  19. This one is a real doozy.

  20. vto 20

    yes coge, that looks like 3 breaches of trust. what does aunty helen want this election to be about again?

  21. coge – ethics aside, english and the gang should be smart enough to keep any redneck views they might have tucked away in public.

    Could be enough to signal the end of english.

  22. higherstandard 22

    I would suggest waiting to see what it is as was the case with the other debacles of recent times most of the secret tapes and attempted smears from all sides have been at best rather boring and innocuous and at worst back firing idiocy – I think the vast rump of the NZ public are fed up to the back teeth with the politicians and the media and would prefer the election to be over and done with and to have someone back in parliament attempting to do something productive with their time.

  23. coge 23

    HS, “Amen”!

  24. Kerry 24

    Gobsmacked…yep put me down for “Epsoms a shithole”…just like the ACT party.

    But there again…..Bills got loose lips……

  25. higherstandard 25

    Kerry

    “Epsons a shithole”

    Are you having problems with your printer or differentiating between the m and n on your keyboard ?

    mmmmmmmmm don’t you love that edit function

  26. Lampie 26

    English “I can’t wait to be PM in December” priceless

  27. Lampie 27

    Nat bottomline “for any other state asset, there is MasterCard”

  28. Monty 28

    this is nothing but a distraction by a desperate government who has buggered the economy and has no idea what to do about it. Voters will disregard this crap and focus on the main issues.

  29. Pat 29

    Why wasn’t it released yesterday so Helen could have used in the debate? Seems to me that if it is such a “doozy” they may have left it too late to release it.

  30. You guys are about as hopeful as the jackasses on Faux news who has been trying all sorts of scandals to make Obama look bad, sorry guys but it wont work.

  31. pat – because there is still one more debate to go. The final debate, which will leave the lasting impression

  32. gobsmacked 32

    Pat et al

    Because, as various people in the know have made clear (Soper, Scoop, etc) the tapes do not come from Labour.

  33. gobsmacked – but its someone tied to labour is it not?

  34. vto 34

    what does it say? what does it say?

    (as much as I detest the way politics makes people behave at times I am a bit of a useless junkie he he)

    Perhaps it’s a complete own goal and has Cullen saying “actually I’m a rich prick myself and absolutely love it”

  35. Batfaq 35

    From Kiwiblog comments:

    English talks frankly to someone posing to be extremely right wing. He reassures them, again, that JK and BE will push a hard right wing agenda once they get in – some quote about a ‘trojan horse’.

    He goes on to slag off Key and talks about a growing faction of National mps who back him over John.

    This was emailed to me half and hour ago. Not a transcript but from somebody who
    has it.

    Proving one thing: English is a fucking twat.

  36. Chris G 36

    I love the tories eg. Monty who respond to the tapes with: “Oh this is desperation from the government” “Smear campaign”

    The fact of the matter is, Nat MPs say what they really think and what they really want to do when they think the MSM aren’t listening.

    eg. Sell kiwibank
    eg. Play it safe to get in to parliament to do the things you want.

    Sorry, how is that not the TRUTH behind the Nats as opposed to a desperate governments smear?

    mind boggles.

  37. Nick 37

    English is Key’s competition and has numbers apparently.

    Did Key arrange the taping? And is this why the culprit was never unearthed? And is this what will come out in the debate: that Key has been spying on his deputy?

    If the tape is of English and not Key then this is easy for Key to handle – show leadership immediately and demote English. Do it during the debate. He dismissed Sir Roger because of his ‘far right’ agenda, he must do the same for Bill English.

    Key’s first test as PM in waiting.

  38. coge 38

    Gobsmacked, which party has sought to capitalise on these recordings? As Clark distanced herself from Williams last week, it is the same MO. The fact that SP is publishing this story raises questions about the plausibility to your theory.

    [coge. Davey had a story about this in the morning, I waited until I saw a credible source, the Herald update and reported from that. SP]

  39. Chris G 39

    batfaq,

    Nice. if that is what the tape is, tories wont be bothered. Swing voters definately should be – and ultimately those are the people that matter.

  40. Lew 40

    Nick: Watch out for the flying saucer full of sasquatches disguised as Destiny Church members on your way to the polling booth this Saturday – they’ll prevent you exercising your democratic rights if you let ’em.

    And be sure to protect your precious bodily fluids, too.

    L

  41. gobsmacked 41

    Coge

    Nonsense. SP is repeating what is already in the media.

    Who embarrassed Don Brash? Hager.

    Nicky Hager = not Nat, therefore Nicky Hager = Labour? Only if you have amnesia.

    Same with this stuff. There are plenty of other people who don’t like the Nats but aren’t Beehive robots.

    Of course Labour will enjoy it. Who wouldn’t?

  42. insider 42

    So the news agenda they are competing against is Barack Obama and John McCain, govt accouts in the red, dead teen in Kerikeri, bad weather warnings and growing unemployment. Hmm this would have to be explosive to appeal to any but the converted Standardista types against that list – and that is unlikely, especially as the neutron bomb was planned for this week instead and this has to be a late replacement. But hell, who really knows.

    Of course Garner could be planning to expose it as another Labour linked dirty trick. Imagine if the nats know who it is and this is the chance to tie it directly back to the Labour party. Remember it is all about trust.

  43. Pat 43

    Insider is right – the Nats would know who the taper is by now, and would have been expecting this release for some time. Beware of the (pre-arranged) backfire.

  44. Wellingtonian. how would gobsmacked know who the secret taper is?

    That’s an interesting comment about whether the tapes come from Key. There have been two English ones now, one of Lockwood the racist, and one of English’s good mate Nick Smith. Maybe it’s a strategy to undermine them so they can’t launh a coup against him if he wins

    Of course, the converse theory is that English and others want to undermine Key, giving National a narrow win from which it would be easier to roll Key.

    All high-risk stuff though, and I don’t tend to believe that people would adopt uch high risk strategies.

    The same goes for Labour. Would they even have the balls to take the risk of making such a tape, let alone deny knowledge?

  45. coge 45

    Gobsmacked, all very good points you make. All I ask is what are the actual facts, so we can both be satisfied. Maybe it won’t be long coming, but being short of breath today, I won’t hold on waiting.

    cheers

  46. bobo 46

    Nats secret Agenda-
    Sell off state housing in inner city areas.
    Privatize Water in similar scheme to electricity shares offered to public.
    Mothball any investment into Kiwirail.
    Look at “sustainable” logging of beech forests on west coast.
    Bulk funding for schools brought back under a rebranded name.
    Grants to private health system to weaken public health and encourage more middleclass into private health.
    Let GPs charge what they like and reduce gov subsidies on GP visits.
    Fund Telecom broadband 700m expansion, stopping other companies from accessing new fibre lines, ditching copper lines.

  47. Lew 47

    Insider: Interesting observation, but I don’t think the news agenda is as busy as you make it out.

    – Barack Obama and John McCain: This is the only genuinely big story, and it’s on the other side of the world.
    – Government accounts in the red: but not as far in the red as was previously thought.
    – Dead teen in Kerikeri: Sorry to be callous, but NZ is one of the few countries in the world with few enough murders that all of them get front-page, lead-bulletin news coverage. It’s ugly, but it’s not a big deal in terms of the news cycle.
    – Bad weather: Pull the other one, this isn’t news until AFTER it destroys a bunch of stuff 🙂
    – Growing unemployment: hasn’t bitten yet, and won’t in the next week.

    This is a tightly-contested and complicated election – in terms of policy, personality, scandal and issues of NZ’s public and democratic identity, there’s a hell of a lot going on. I think that if this is any better than the previous secret agenda tapes (and someone this patient will have saved the best until last) it’ll get huge cut-through.

    L

  48. Pat 48

    Helicopter crash is probably the lead story.

  49. exbrethren 49

    “Ian Henderson, of St John, said two ambulances attended the crash and two patients were treated for minor injuries.”

    That’s a lead story? Maybe if it was Winston in the Vela’s copter.

  50. tracey 50

    Interesting that Nat supporters have already begun the spinning. I know it is probably a wasteof type, but imagine this rumour is about HC and Goff and Labour, how relevant would those of you eschewing its relevance, think it is?

    If you watch other unscientific polls you will see most NZers are more interested in our election than the US. IF this is real it will get coverage, and rightly so.

    People when drunk, or when they think no one is listening often reveal more truth than when sober or in public. This is true of ALL of us.

  51. gobsmacked 51

    The police have just cleared Winston. There’s another headline.

  52. insider 52

    Pat/Lew

    remember the mantra – if it bleeds it leads….

    tracey

    Have you not heard the Goff rumours? When I’m drunk I love everyone. That is clearly not true

    The other good story today is of course the Melbourne CUp, which unbelievably Nat Radio is breaking into the news for.

    The I could have died laughing story of the day is not Rodney’s jacket but the Labour complaint to the press council on the NZH reporting of Labour policy which found Labour in fact had issued a misleading media release. Once again they are hoist on their own petard.

  53. Batfaq 53

    How many “man on the street punters” are going to be watching the Melbourne Cup when this breaking news is released? I would hazard a guess that people will be more interested in that….

  54. tracey 54

    lol insider

    Hooten’s deep throat wrong again then GS?

  55. Lew 55

    insider: That mantra applies in figurative terms to a reputation as well as in literal terms to a body.

    L

  56. insider 56

    And it is Viewed

  57. randal 57

    tracey..hooten is stillin HOng KOng looking for a new job!

  58. r0b 58

    I’m not expecting any silver bullet from the tape. This election can only be won for Labour with good policy and hard work. In most cases these tapes tell we political tragics what we already knew – secret agenda and so on – and have only a small impact on the political landscape as a whole.

    The exception would be if this tape is as has been hinted (1) really explicit about National’s “Trojan horse” plans to win the election pretending to be Labour Lite and then go hard core right, or (2) English discussing a plan to roll Key, anything about having the numbers. If either of these are true it would be explosive.

  59. insider 59

    r0b

    It just doesn’t seem credible that English in “full view” in a National conference with lots of ears around would even mention rolling Key.

  60. r0b. I would argue these tapes, at least the first ones, have had the biggest impact of any political event this year. Before they came out, there was talk of Labour’s support reaching a tipping point, it had polled as low as 27% and could have collapsed. Conversely, National was touching the upper 50s. The secret tapes put an end to that. The gap, rather than growing as some feared (or hoped), narrowed about 10% in the following weeks.

  61. r0b 61

    It just doesn’t seem credible that English in “full view’ in a National conference with lots of ears around would even mention rolling Key.

    I agree, it doesn’t seem credible at all.

    In half an hour I guess we’ll find out.

  62. r0b 62

    The secret tapes put an end to that. The gap, rather than growing as some feared (or hoped), narrowed about 10% in the following weeks.

    Hard to establish cause and effect! I’d like to hope that what swung the polls was a growing appreciation of Labour’s excellent policy initiatives, National’s tax cut fizzer and the related gutting of KiwiSaver, growing appreciation of Key’s shallow flipflops, and the gradual re-engagement of people with politics as the election started to loom.

    I can’t seriously believe that the polls at their worst (for Labour) ever reflected the reality of opinion in NZ.

  63. Chris G 63

    K, I’m going to shamefully lay down $5 saying TVNZ makes mention of it and shows an edited tape, preceded by political editor explaining its no big deal.

    TV3 will cover it, Duncan will try and be objective about it

    Both news coverages play the tape Once, then bif it on the shelf, pull a fox news and cut to an adbreak so we can get reminded of what we need to buy tomorrow rather than our possible future MPs.

    Sorry for the pessimism but I couldnt help myself.

    Exception: If the tapes have some seriously great stuff in them. I lose my bet. My fingers are certainely crossed for that, but my $$$ lead me elsewhere.

  64. bobo 64

    Chris G I somehow think your probably right, will be played down or ignored. But if were relying on stuff like this now it looks desperate.

  65. Ianmac 65

    Rumour: English leaked info for Hollow Men.

  66. Ianmac. Is that only a rumour? Everyones take it as such a solid fact I thought it was in the acknowledgements

  67. Roflcopter 67

    was that it? lmfao

  68. Monty 68

    Is that it – pathetic – ha ha – another fizzer – who gives a toss – a few excitable peaceniks?

    Get a life you losers.

  69. Scribe 69

    Wow, what a fizzer. A conservative MP in New Zealand disagrees with the views of the most liberal senator in the United States. What a shock!!

  70. John 70

    What a joke.. this is the weakest tape yet.

  71. higherstandard 71

    r0b at 5,42pm – spot on regarding this one.

    If Garner and TV3 had any balls they say to whoever this twat is give us the whole tape or go away we’re not interested in playing your games – however they do appear interested in playing games and being manipulated.

  72. tsmithfield 72

    Was that it???? That was pathetic. I would say it did Labour more harm than National.

  73. Carol 73

    What’s interesting, then is that whoever claimed they knew what was on the tape, on Kiwiblog, was quite wrong. So did it come from a rightwing blogger wanting to stir up tension between Key & English? Or from a leftie?

    No surprises on the tape tonight, but TV3 thought it important enough to put it at the top of the bulletin. Probably sent to coincide with Obama’s election, and to indicate that the Nats are nothing like Obama.

    And as we predicted, Key (and English) response is that it’s part of Labour’s dirty tricks.

  74. John 74

    Labour and their mates remind me of how pathetic Bolger and Shipley were as they crumbled. It’s not pretty watching a party implode. I guess it will get dirtier as we approach Saturday.
    The Greens have handled themselves really well during the campaign. I can see them getting over 15% as people depart Labour in droves. Labour might drop below 30%. Who misses out then?
    Unfortunately Labour’s negative campaign has been a disaster. I can’t believe that Helen condoned this ham fisted approach.

  75. Scribe 75

    Probably sent to coincide with Obama’s election, and to indicate that the Nats are nothing like Obama.

    Thank God the Nats are nothing like Obama.

  76. Carol 76

    Yes, but I think the Nats would try to slide into government on Obama’s coat-tails. Like they would try to claim they are for change like Obama. Can’t do that now.

  77. If Labour got 30% and the Green over 15%, they would form the government aoing with the Progressives and Maori Party. The last two will get about 3% of the vote. About 5% will be wasted and that leaves only 45-47% for National and its allies.

  78. Pascal's bookie 78

    Bill English supports the Bush doctrine, ignoring the bipartisan tradition in NZ of operating under the UN’s rules.

    ‘Not news’ say righties. Probably not a game breaker given the story requires some background knowledge to understand what English said, but there you go.

  79. tsmithfield 79

    Maybe this is all part of a grand plan by National. Perhaps they are deliberately releasing all this sort of stuff in order to make Labour look dirty and nasty. Perhaps the “deepthroat” that Williams was hooking into was actually a National plant.

    There’s food for thought.

  80. r0b 80

    Unfortunately Labour’s negative campaign has been a disaster. I can’t believe that Helen condoned this ham fisted approach.

    Labour have noting to do with the secret taper, as has been said many times by both Labour and the Journalist contacts.

    I think the secret taper has done us all a favour in revealing National’s secret agenda. But it seems to have been a lone initiative, it’s not a Labour tactic, and those trying to create the impression that it is know full well that they are lying.

    I haven’t caught up on the latest one yet – no TV where I am – but it seems that English has been critical of Obama. That seems unwise – see the extreme caution with which both Clark and Key handled this issue in the debate last night. Now Nataional’s cover is blown.

  81. Carol 81

    Yes, English said he’s worried about Obama’s moralistic approach to Iraq. Says something about needing to go to war sometimes. Oh and was critical of Europe’s current approach.

    There’s also one more tape to come & it’s not of English talking,

  82. Pascal's bookie 82

    Thank God the Nats are nothing like Obama.

    What do you mean Scribe?

    Which particular NJ beliefs are you holding about Obama that makes you think he is so terrible that only God’s grace keeps our National party from Obamastic shame.

    Is it the opposing stupid wars? The not being down with torture? The having enough brain cells and knowledge of history to realise that church and state shouldn’t mix? Or is it something else?

    Don’t be shy, the guy is going to be elected tommorrow, let us know why that is something God should protect us from.

  83. Ianmac 83

    Garner did say that there were no more tapes — with English on them. Therefore there is a but….
    I think that for the prospective D.Priminister to espouse a pro-war position in spite of the official line from National that we were right to not join the war is a bit of a worry. Remember Key swapped his position from pro-war to anti war.

  84. Pat 84

    The Herald is outing the identity of the taper tomorrow. Labour better hope it is not Williams in a tight-fitting Batman suit.

  85. John 85

    I wasn’t referring to the tapes. There will be guilt by association which will hurt Labour.
    The point i am making is that their campaign is unequivocally negative i.e. you can’t trust JK. It is an American style campaign and it hasn’t worked.
    Hodgson is clearly intellectually challenged (I won’t even bother commenting on Williams).
    This has hurt the centre-left and I know that the Greens aren’t happy.

  86. Gary R 86

    I think the latest tape was released by Labour insiders – they’ve realised the battle is over, the right has won, and now they are positioning to roll Clark. That’s why we are getting increasingly embarassing situations for Labour – ala H-fee bomb, this tape etc.

  87. Carol 87

    Oh? So there has been no negative campaigning from Key/Nats? Really? They have been attacking Labour & Clark for a long while, and spent a lot of time encouraging Rodney Hide to smear Labour through Peters. Not to mention having spent the last few years trying to smear Labour MPs/ministers. This approach began with the Nats,and Labour has just responded in a like manner at times.

  88. Felix 88

    “positioning to roll Clark”

    You are joking aren’t you?

  89. Carol 89

    And all they do is spin, spin spin and continue trying to smear Labour. Game’s not over til the fat lady sings.

  90. r0b 90

    The point i am making is that their campaign is unequivocally negative i.e. you can’t trust JK. It is an American style campaign and it hasn’t worked.

    Whether or not it has “worked” rather remains to be seen. And there certainly are negative elements to Labour’s campaign – but there have to be. Labour are up against an ill defined mood for “change”. All of Labour’s positive contributions over the last 9 years have been banked and forgotten. So it is worth putting some heat on the alternative that we might change to – the almost unchanged 90’s front bench, the expedient flip flops, the underlying secret agenda, and so on.

    Hodgson is clearly intellectually challenged

    Why even make such stupid statements?

    Anyway, time to go do some stuff. Bye for now.

  91. Scribe 91

    PB,

    NJ? Nutjob?

    I have no problem with Obama opposing the war; peace is preferable. And Church and State should be separated.

    But what concerns me? Let’s see. His plan to “spread the wealth around”. His plan to bankrupt the coal industry in the US. His liberal views on social issues. His lack of credible bipartisanship, despite his rhetoric. His complete lack of inexperience — makes Key look like someone with major credentials.

    That’s a start.

  92. sweetd 92

    Carol, so labour is being dirty because the nasty nats started it first?

    “Game’s not over til the fat lady sings.” What time is Judith on?

  93. Carol 93

    Actually he’s more experienced in politics than key. A few years in the senate for a country as big as the US, is a much bigger deal than Key’s experience as an NZ MP/leader in opposition. Plus he’s had experience working in the Chicago community & at the University.

  94. Scribe 94

    Carol,

    Actually he’s more experienced in politics than key. A few years in the senate for a country as big as the US, is a much bigger deal than Key’s experience as an NZ MP/leader in opposition.

    He barely spent two years in the US Senate before running for president.

    Plus he’s had experience working in the Chicago community & at the University.

    Sorry, I forgot that working at a university — or in a union — is the best possible breeding for politics. I withdraw and apologise.

  95. Carol 95

    Actually SD, I don’t think Labour is being as dirty as the Nats. I just get sick of all the spin from righties about Labour’s dirty tricks, which is just an extension of the way righties have been trying to smear Labour for years.

    I don’t know who will form the next NZ government, but it sure doesn’t look to me that Labour has given up.

    Anyway, continue smearing and spinning if you want, it just looks a bit superficial to me, and hypocritical. And it gets really boring.

  96. sweetd 96

    “A few years in the senate for a country as big as the US, is a much bigger deal than Key’s experience as an NZ MP/leader in opposition” umm, why?

    ” Plus he’s had experience working in the Chicago community & at the University.” Whippee!!!!!!

  97. Hey sweetd – you tard. I saw this link in yesterday’s comments.

    http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=zpIXgJ7r2vU

    I reckon Bill’s take on Iraq isn’t far off what Key thinks except Key wants to make a buck out of it too…

    I don’t think it’s dirty to release this shit at all. Dirty to say it? F*ck yes…

    Dirty, dirty, dirty tories…

  98. higherstandard 98

    Carol

    Get real Labour are just as dirty if not more so than the Nats.

    Scribe/Sweetd

    Have a look at Obama’s history on one of the web encyclopaedias he’s got a fair degree of experience at state and senate level as well as sitting experience on a number of senate committees.

    Without doubt he’s extraordinarily charismatic but the most important test of whether he will be a good president will be the advisors and support staff he surrounds himself with as will be the case for Key if he gets over the line.

  99. higherstandard 99

    sod I thought you liked dirty tories – have you got all prudish again ?

  100. Scribe 100

    hs,

    He’s got plenty of experience “sitting”; what experience has he got when it comes to doing? When has he reached across the aisle, as he claims to have done regularly? His limited bipartisan legislation is on matters that are not controversial.

    He’s incredibly charismatic and has done wonders for the electoral process in the US. I think he’d be a step backwards in terms of policy.

  101. sweetd 101

    Robinsod

    I think the points go to English. Obama is a socialist, he will withdrawl the USA from all points of the world, rebuild the isolationalist policy of many decades before and hike tarrifs to exporting nations, like NZ.

    Like it or not, the USA is the worlds policeman, and, sometimes you need to go to war to defend your way of life.

    What is interesting, also, is that Clark is still clinging to Gulf War2. This, in todays climate (global credit crunch, recession) is a much smaller issue that ever before and thus not even on most voters radar’s.

  102. sweetd 102

    Higherstandard

    Yeah, he is very charismatic, I loved his speaches in Europe a few months ago. Would loved to have heard them in person.

    In truth, are these the best 2 canidates that the USA can offer? God help us. I would not vote for either. Yeah, I hope he develops a good team around him.

  103. Quoth the Raven 103

    Scribe – Key has far less political experience than Obama. I thought you guys didn’t care about experience. Even Palin’s got more experience than Key, about 14 years more.

  104. Felix 104

    So Scribe’s reason for not liking Obama is essentially that he’s not a completely backwards neanderthal bible-thumper whose primary interest is in protecting the rich and powerful.

    Guess Scribe would be a big fan of GW Bush then.

  105. Felix 105

    “sometimes you need to go to war to defend your way of life.”

    For example…

  106. Pascal's bookie 106

    scribe, oh dear.

    Let’s see. His plan to “spread the wealth around’. His plan to bankrupt the coal industry in the US. His liberal views on social issues. His lack of credible bipartisanship, despite his rhetoric. His complete lack of inexperience — makes Key look like someone with major credentials.

    The basic FNC screed then.

    “Spread the wealth around”. Scary stuff. ooga booga. His plan is less redistributionist than National’s so God has let you down on this one. It takes tax rates back to where Clinton had them basically. Hardly socialism, despite the learned opinions of ‘Joe the plumber’, ‘Tito the builder’ or ‘Sarah the nutjob’. Anyone who buys it is either dishonest, or doesn’t know much about the history of taxes in America, let alone ‘socialism’.

    “His plan to bankrupt the coal industry in the US.” You mean a cap and trade system that would incentivise the use of so called ‘clean coal’? Read the whole speech that the GOP has been taking soundbites out of. FTR McCain also has these policies, but chooses to lie about Obama’s policy, because well, he’s like that. Again, our National party claims to share this basic approach so God has still not spared us.

    “His liberal views on social issues” Without more specifics I’m not sure what you mean, but National party policy is probably to his ‘left’. God isn’t helping us out much.

    “His complete lack of inexperience” (teehee) Obama has run a campaign that dwarfs our GDP, and that I think you have to admit, done so in a way that is completely professional. This argument is what you run when you don’t have anything else.

    “His lack of credible bipartisanship” Nonsense. One of his first acts in the US senate was to co sponsor a ‘loose nukes’ bill with a GOP senator. In his State senate days he was always reaching across the aisle, as loca; GOP chaps are happy to talk about. Have you read about his bill on videotaping confessions in capital crime cases? Textbook bipartisanship. Also note how many senior GOP figures have endorsed him.

  107. Ianmac 107

    I think that Obama had 12 years as a Senator.
    John Key has had 6 years in Opposition and opposed most initiatives.
    If he wins he will do what under the guise of Economic necessity?

  108. higherstandard 108

    sweetd

    “In truth, are these the best 2 candidates that the USA can offer? God help us. I would not vote for either.”

    I rate them both a lot higher than the two previous presidents and am quite hopeful that either of them will make a good job of the presidency and clean out the last remnants of bush and clinton from the collective memory.

  109. sweetd 109

    Felix,

    lets see, WW2

  110. John 110

    Palin is too scary for words.
    Obama may be inexperienced but he has the intelligence to surround himself with outstanding talent.. Buffett, Corzine, Axlerod etc.
    The real challenge for the USA is how to convert to alternative energy. To quote Obama.. they have 3% of the world’s oil reserves yet consume 25% of the world’s crude. Nuclear is not the cheap option that everyone says it is due to the cost of construction and waste storage. Palin’s “drill baby drill” mantra only puts off the inevitable and reinforces dependency.

    [lprent: Just looking at your comments in the past. They’re pretty pathetic micro lines that seem to be said for simply saying them. Figure out how to lift your standard because I don’t intend this place to drop to KB’s standards]

  111. higherstandard 111

    Feck – just quietly isn’t it nice to be chatting about the US race and not the NZ election which has descended into absurdity.

  112. Roflcopter 112

    I’d drill Palin, she’d be a wildcat. 😀

    [lprent: This place is starting to look like the sewer at KB. Lift your standards or I’ll start giving people holidays from here. It is pretty evident who isn’t doing any constructive work for the election.]

  113. Quoth the Raven 113

    HS – absurdity? let me think – Joe the Plumber.

  114. Pat 114

    Rudd, Key and Obama. Time to restart Anzus. It would be nice to have some US jets parked at Whenuapai.

    I will never forgive Helen for scrapping the F16 deal.

  115. randal 115

    hey the not so secret aganda is get hooton out of the way for the endgame.
    He is just too horrible for the masses
    turn the nat vote off in droves
    bring him back to face the music you cowards!

  116. Quoth the Raven 116

    Rudd, Key and Obama – Who’s the odd one out? Intelligent, articulate, experenced, to the left of the incumbents they have/will beat, opposed the Iraq war…

  117. randal 117

    Pat…tough titty
    what are ya
    some sort of piker
    I wanted an aircraft carrier and three squadrons of F14 hornets and two squadrons of F18 tomcats
    pound for pound the RNZAF is the best airforce in the world so take your new zealand sux crap somewhere else please

    [lprent: This place is starting to look like the sewer at KB. Lift your standards or I’ll start giving people holidays from here. It is pretty evident who isn’t doing any constructive work for the election.]

  118. Pascal's bookie 118

    ” I forgot that working at a university… is the best possible breeding for politics. I withdraw and apologise.”

    After the last 8 years I think that someone who has taught constitutional law at a top university will be just what is needed. His students speak very highly of him. But never mind reality eh scribe, just cut to the anti-intellectual chase.

  119. “John
    Palin is too scary for words.”

    What about that lady in the 3 news clip screaming “Germany wanted change and they got Hitler!!!” that was my laughs for the night, but there’s something about Palin, it;s like she just doesn’t get it or something.

  120. Matthew Pilott 120

    I will never forgive Helen for scrapping the F16 deal.

    Yeah, we really could have used them when…

    There’s no way I’ll get an honest answer here, but do you folk on the right really, honestly think that the right are running a shiny clean campaign, and Labour are dirty liars?

    Two instances pop into my mind – Key talking about the Waikato expresway – he said he’d build it for $790(ish) mil, but a tunnel will apparently be built with magic and not money (not costed), and three requred interchanges aren’t part of that costing, so no one will be able to use it. Real cost – over $1.4 bn, min.

    600 ‘new’ police – only a couple of hundred over and above what Labour has costed and budgeted for, and then Key lied about whether they were on the front line. He also gave a cost for them below their starting salary, so the numbers only worked if you discount what Labour’s already budgeted.

    Those are dirty tricks – steal headlines with knowingly false figures, distortions and lies. Move on to the next one before anyone calls you on it. There are many more examples – the SPARC website, pretending all our benefit recipints have been shifted to sickness…

    Yet you lot on the right – what really matters to you is whether Clark was in a fast car, or signed a painting for charity, or whether Willims was in Australia because he suspected Key was up to the gunwhales in the H-fee?

    Those are your issues? Why pretend you’re into polictics? I’m sure the goss from womens’ magazines must be much more fascination, it seems to be more like what engages you.

    The typical response to this is that you can’t trust Clark because of those ‘lies’ – I’d rather someone ‘lied’ to me so I got a painting for charity, instead of lied to me, overpromising and under delivering, and showing that they have spent no time whatsoever looking into useful policy.

  121. Felix 121

    sweetd: “lets see, WW2”

    That’s what I thought.

    Do you really think English was talking about WW2?

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