Attacking NIWA

Written By: - Date published: 11:57 am, August 16th, 2010 - 98 comments
Categories: act, climate change, law, science - Tags: ,

What do you do when you find science inconvenient to your ideology? Why, you strike it down! Burn the heretics! Or in the modern equivalent, you set the lawyers on them, and try and have the facts declared illegal.

What?

Yes really – it’s happening right now in NZ:

The country’s state-owned weather and atmospheric research body is being taken to court in a challenge over the accuracy of its data used to calculate global warming.

The New Zealand Climate Science Coalition said it had lodged papers with the High Court asking the court to invalidate the official temperatures record of the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (Niwa).

I am not a lawyer – but is there any capacity in the law to do this? To rule scientific data “invalid”? And who is mad enough to try and use the law to muzzle science anyway?

The lobby of climate sceptics and ACT Party have long criticised Niwa over its temperature data, which Niwa says is mainstream science and not controversial, and the raw data publicly available.

Ahh well, that explains it. The “Climate Science Coalition” has to be the most inappropriately named entity in the history of stupidity. These people have nothing to do with science. They make Luddites look like rocket scientists. And no surprise to find their intellectual peers ACT in bed with them. How richly they deserve each other.

Those with an interest in the subject will recall that this is round two of an ongoing fight. The Climate Anti-Science Coalition tried to fight this battle in the court of public opinion and they lost (details here, and here and here). So now they’re having a go in the court of law, where they will lose again.

[UPDATE: More commentary here and here. The first link (Hot Topic) is, as always, very good on the technical background.]

98 comments on “Attacking NIWA ”

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  1. toad 1
    16 August 2010 at 12:14 pm

    And when they lose in Court, they will attack the judge for “judicial activism” and “political bias”. This is like dealing with creationists and flat earthers.

  2. Pete 2
    16 August 2010 at 12:15 pm

    “The “Climate Science Coalition’ has to be the most inappropriately named entity in the history of stupidity.”

    As is the ‘Sensible Sentencing Trust’.

    Otherwise – bloody hell.

    • A Post With Me In It 2.1
      16 August 2010 at 1:23 pm

      I think you will find that calling your self the opposite of what you are is such a common tactic nowadays as to be a cliche.

      So no, it will not even scrap the surface of “most inappropriately named entity in the history of stupidity”.

  3. Pascal's bookie 3
    16 August 2010 at 12:16 pm

    I’ll bet Wishart hasn’t been so excited since he heard that Kitzmiller was going to sue the Dover Area School District.

  4. The Voice of Reason 4
    16 August 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Just an aside, but can we lay off the Luddites, please. It’s bad enough when righties use the term as a perjorative, but lefties really should know their history better. Luddites were not thicko flat earthers trying to deny the realities of the situation they faced, but class conscious tradesman and artisans acting in their (relatively narrow) class interest. They were well educated, well organised and not opposed to machinery per se, but opposed to having their incomes diminished as a result of the introduction of the new methods of production. Not much different to the concerns of the average worker in 2010, but a world away from the belligerent stupidity of climate change deniers.

    • r0b 4.1
      16 August 2010 at 1:06 pm

      Hmm, not quite as innocent as you paint then VOR, with violence and assassination commonly in use. But you’re right, the modern caricature of them is very shallow, and I’ll try not to add to it again.

  5. James Allison 5
    16 August 2010 at 12:38 pm

    Muzzle science???? Where did this come from? The court action is designed to make NIWA account for a blatant manipulation of historic temperature records downwards in order to show an “unprecedented” global warming trend during the 20C.

    • mickysavage 5.1
      16 August 2010 at 2:44 pm

      And Pakistan is not flooded, Greenland is not producing huge icebergs, the tundra is not thawing and the North pole is not disappearing before our very eyes.

      I feel much better thanks.

      Can I open my eyes now?

      • comedy 5.1.1
        16 August 2010 at 4:16 pm

        As long as you shut your mouth

      • zelda 5.1.2
        16 August 2010 at 8:26 pm

        Its called weather. Climate is what is predictable. Weather isnt.
        Pakistan is merely having floods of about 50 year AEP. Untill we have seem the hydrological records you cant assume otherwise.
        As for Greenland and icebergs. Its what they do . Again the size of one ‘berg’ is merely that of about a 20 year cycle.
        And the world will end ! Thats another 20 year cycle. We were supposed to all starve by 1972

    • bbfloyd 5.2
      16 August 2010 at 4:03 pm

      congrats James… ! you get the award for the silliest comment i’ve read today. not gonna bother to point out why. everyone else already knows..

  6. Draco T Bastard 6
    16 August 2010 at 12:43 pm

    This doesn’t surprise me as they’re (the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition) are a bunch of psychopaths that are only interested in themselves.

  7. Frank Macskasy 7
    16 August 2010 at 12:49 pm

    The “Climate Science Coalition’ has to be the 21st century version of King Canute and his (in)famous stand on the beaches of Ye Olde England, commanding the tide to retreat.

    It didn’t.

    He got wet feet.

    The climate change deniers will likewise end up with very wet feet. (Especially if they live on a coastal property.)

    As an aside, is it coincidence that the anti-spam word to make this post was… ‘sciences’? I kid you not.

    • SteveR 7.1
      16 August 2010 at 1:17 pm

      A pedant writes:

      Canute apparently went to the beach and told the sea to retreat just to show his followers that he *could not* do what they believed he could do, i.e. the staged the whole thing as a lesson to his (over-) flattering court.

      Other stories say that he commanded the sea to retreat, but when it didn’t he used this as a lesson of the lowly position of kings relative to nature (or perhaps a god) (perhaps knowing that the sea would not obey him?).

      Either way, the point is about the powerlessness of even kings relative to other forces.

      Not sure where that leaves your point .perhaps just that “CSC’ needs to see that the earth will go its merry way independent of what they wish was the case.

      • Frank Macskasy 7.1.1
        16 August 2010 at 1:20 pm

        You might be right in the true sense of what happened. I was using the commonly held view of what took place.

        (Though Canute might’ve freaked out had the tides retreated as commanded!! )

      • The Voice of Reason 7.1.2
        16 August 2010 at 1:53 pm

        Two ancient canards and a modern one dealt to in a single post. Possibly a new PB for the Standard, but no doubt there will be a righty blog out there with the same commitment to historical accuracy and modern peer reviewed research willing to do better.

        Or … not.

    • bbfloyd 7.2
      16 August 2010 at 4:26 pm

      thanks for the segue frank. if fact,..it won’t just be the deniers who get wet.
      in the final wash up(no pun intended), they will regret their stupidity as much as all of us will, as we try to survive.
      rather than getting bogged down in petty squabbling, shouldn’t the debate now shift toward how humanity will survive the ice age coming?
      i suppose, in the spirit of fairness, i would accept that there is a very slim chance that the deniers are right. but who would be brave, or stupid enough to bet your descendants lives on that?

  8. Robert Winter 8
    16 August 2010 at 12:54 pm

    It is a rather obvious form of bullying – if we cannot win a scientific argument, and they cannot, let’s see if we can bully institutions into submission using financial and political resources. It is worth reading the Statement of Claim, for it makes it clear that this is a political attack because they can’t win any other way. It is also reminiscent of the playgorund – let me win, or I’ll get my big brother to beat you up.

  9. Quay 9
    16 August 2010 at 12:55 pm

    To rule scientific data “invalid’? – gee, where have I heard that before

    • bbfloyd 9.1
      16 August 2010 at 4:38 pm

      many times over in your history books..

    • zelda 9.2
      16 August 2010 at 8:34 pm

      Ruling data invalid ?
      Thats not what they are doing. They are saying a selective 7 station dataset which is then ‘adjusted’ accoding to a method decided by a 30 year old students thesis constitutes the temperature record in NZ and nobody seems to follow why they have done it.
      We have allready had the sea level record in NZ show that the rise has been consistent over the last 100 years or so ( Otago University, School of Surveying) and NOT been increasing since the increase in CO2.
      Perhaps we will find the temperatures havent increased beyond a long term rise.
      Quelle horreur

      • NickS 9.2.1
        16 August 2010 at 10:24 pm

        lolwat?

        Like I said in my post (when it probably gets published here tomorrow), you have these things called “site effects”, in fact for a long time, lead by micro-Watts surfacestations.org, it was the tools climate denialists brought out to try and undermine the US land temperature records. And what I failed to mention in my post, but is mentioned over at Hot-Topic (we have seen you in the comments there…) by Gareth, is that to merge multiple temperature recordings, you need to make them equivalent. i.e. adjusting the raw data to mitigate site effects at each site that will otherwise distort the warming signal in the data.

        And data manipulation, in the forms of transforms, moving averages, removing outliers etc is quite the fucking the norm for data which you couldn’t otherwise analyse with parametric statistical techniques. Particularly time series data for natural events which tend to fluctuate. Like temperatures, or animal populations.

        You also seem to not understand what a thesis is, nor the level of scrutiny the contents of a thesis are exposed to, both in the drafting process and by external reviewers. Which is to say, it’s not a fucking essay, or a small research project you ignoramus. Rather, it’s pretty much at the same level as a peer reviewed paper, and are one of the resources you’re allowed to cite in scientific research if the author hasn’t got around to splitting the thesis contents into publishable units yet.

        And the NZCSET/NZCSC are actually quoted as saying want to invalidate it you illiterate fool.

        As for your claims about sea level rise in NZ, I’ll believe it when you give us a link, because from what I’ve seen on Hot-Topic and here, anything you write isn’t worth trusting without an external reference.

      • Armchair Critic 9.2.2
        16 August 2010 at 10:50 pm

        If you have any doubts about sea level rise I recommend you request an hourly sea level time series from your local port company. They all tend to keep such a record, and for commercial purposes, primarily (understanding sea level is critical to their business – no sea = no business etc.) rather than proving or disproving any theories about climate, weather, whatever. Many ports have been operational for a hundred years or more (and that’s just in NZ), so there are nice, long records available.
        Depending on which port company you ask, you can get raw or processed data, or both, along with metadata. The price is usually quite reasonable, or free if you ask nicely.
        Since you are so concerned about ‘adjustments’, how about you analyse the raw data yourself and tell us what you find, along with a description of what you did to reach your findings. A smarty like you shouldn’t have too much trouble outwitting those dumb-arsed scientists. Surprise us. Tell me something I don’t already know.

  10. Yeah Right 10
    16 August 2010 at 1:06 pm

    It staggers me you so called intelligent well balanced and fair minded lot call this climate science challenge “idealology” when the cold hard facts are staring your ignorance squarely in the face.

    The historical data (i.e. that taken from actual NZ readings over many decades) mapped out as per normal do not show a 1 degree warming.

    In fact the NIWA data shows almost no warming over 100 years.

    Do you want the facts to be proven or just go along with the charade?

    • Robert Winter 10.1
      16 August 2010 at 1:09 pm

      Then let the scientists sort it out, not the courts – simple as that – if the “facts” are so plain, then positivist science will undoubtedly show it.

    • Frank Macskasy 10.2
      16 August 2010 at 1:30 pm

      “In fact the NIWA data shows almost no warming over 100 years.’

      I don’t know where you get that from. NIWA is quite clear on the rise of temperature: http://www.niwa.co.nz/our-science/climate/information-and-resources/clivar/pastclimate

      And simplified into graph form: http://www.niwa.co.nz/__data/assets/image/0018/105273/varieties/gallery.png

      • burt 10.2.1
        16 August 2010 at 9:41 pm

        lprent

        Remembering as you slag them off for not being up to speed on the distinction between local ice ages and global ice ages that the world consensus on planet wide glacier movement was shocked by this research.

        NZ Herald: 2nd May 2009 – NZ glacier findings upset climate theory

        FFS, the science was settled and then we finally added to the models that perhaps the whole planet didn’t have ice ages all at once… in 2009.. And you wonder why people call you “believers”.

        I’m stunned you are defending NIWA on this lprent. I’m not surprised you don’t agree with the CSC but surely this is about science and not personal ? Surely the more scrutiny and peer review applied to science of said adjustments the better?

        • NickS 10.2.1.1
          16 August 2010 at 10:28 pm

          Question, do you actually grok how glaciers work? Because somehow I doubt it, otherwise you wouldn’t be treating that piece in the Herald as counter evidence to climate change.

          Also, you might want to read about all the other records we rely on, like changes in growing seasons, ground temperatures and migration timings, along with frost counts. And then there’s the satellite readings.

          I guess your ignorance, along with using it as an excuse to pretend you actually understand the science is why we call people like you idiots and denialists.

        • burt 10.2.1.2
          16 August 2010 at 10:59 pm

          NickS

          I know enough about glaciers to know that they don’t all recede and advance in a synchronized global way. There had to be some way to explain the advancing glaciers seen in NZ while the Northern Hemisphere withered. I fully concede my knowledge compared to the authors named in the Herald article is pitiful. Luckily I’ve never been required to quantify glacial interaction with climate on a global scale with flawed assumptions, so it’s not about me.

          • NickS 10.2.1.2.1
            16 August 2010 at 11:14 pm

            Except of course if actually understood the mechanics of glaciers in the first place, you would be making such a naive post, as for as well as local temperatures, climate, precipitation type, timing, amount and frequency all need to be looked at over time to properly model how a glacier changes over time.

            And to put it bluntly, while the study mentioned in The Herald does provide a very useful tool for looking at the history of a glacier, it doesn’t change the fact that at present the world wide trend for glaciers to recede rather than grow is more better explained by increases in regional temperatures due to climate change. Especially in the Arctic Circle, tropical glaciers and the Antarctic Western Ice Sheet. Which despite some growth on the Eastern Ice sheet, the total mass loss on the West sheet gives a net loss of ice mass in Antarctica.

            Also, The other factor your ignoring is the speed of glacial recession, i.e. has it speed up over time, controlling for precipitation? Because while mass loss from NZ glaciers may have started before the current warming, it is clear that they have receded rather quickly in recent decades, in contrast to the early 20th century.

            • burt 10.2.1.2.1.1
              17 August 2010 at 11:11 am

              Perhaps if the IPCC understood glaciers like you think I should then they wouldn’t have made such a naive model for global warming. Keep shooting the messenger, I make no apology for linking a 2009 article that challenged the settled science of that time.

              • NickS …
                17 August 2010 at 11:34 am

                Here’s an idea, go read the IPCC report, because only in pop media reports on glaciers is any of the finer details I’ve mentioned above on glacier growth generally not covered.

                Of course that would require you to read and think, which may be a little troublesome for you.

          • RedLogix 10.2.1.2.2
            16 August 2010 at 11:16 pm

            Burt,

            So now I take you are happy with the idea:

            “The New Zealand findings point to the importance of regional shifts in wind directions and sea surface temperatures,” he said.

            Regional weather patterns such as the El Nino Southern Oscillation were superimposed on the global climate trends reflected in the behaviour of glaciers.

            So can we also take it that you’d be relaxed with the notion that the Medieval Warm Period may well have been a ‘regional effect’ as well? You know, like the scientists have been telling us?

            • burt 10.2.1.2.2.1
              17 August 2010 at 10:55 am

              For sure it could have been regional. That’s not to say we need to remove if from the model as shown in Gore’s carbon trading scheme advertisment and deny it ever happened because our models are not sophisticated enough to model regional effects.

              The science was so settled we needed to ignore real world events the model couldn’t deal with…. call that science ?

              • lprent …
                17 August 2010 at 10:58 am

                The science was so settled we needed to ignore real world events the model couldn’t deal with

                Yes. It is only the scientific illiterates who have a problem with statistical models which show the probability of events. They prefer the certainty of newtonian physics rather than the chaotic probabilities of quantum uncertainty.

                You really need to read more about modern science.

                • burt …
                  17 August 2010 at 11:12 am

                  Modern science…. hide the methods from public scrutiney and denigrate people who insist on transparency…. believers….

                  • NickS …
                    17 August 2010 at 11:33 am

                    lololololololololol

                    You can actually find out the methodologies by looking at the either the literature, or contacting the various organisations. The only “hiding” going on, is entirely in your mind.

                    Also, you might actually need a background in uni statistical modelling to begin to actually understand it.

                  • lprent …
                    17 August 2010 at 11:46 am

                    Science just requires a bit of effort and expended energy to understand. It really isn’t that hard.

                    Of course one of the first things you learn in science is that ‘common-sense’ equates to superstition, and is frequently wrong. Personally I suspect that is your major blockage.

                    • comedy …
                      17 August 2010 at 11:54 am

                      “Science just requires a bit of effort and expended energy to understand. It really isn’t that hard.”

                      Great, I can’t wait for your dissertation on M-theory and the Higgs Boson.

                    • burt …
                      17 August 2010 at 12:13 pm

                      Of course one of the first things you learn in science is that when a model is incapable of reproducing the real world events that the model is incomplete, it’s inputs are corrupted or it is simply wrong. I find it staggering that I’m called a RWNJ-Denier for pointing out that global warming models were shaken by new research in 2009. Messenger life expectancy when delivering inconvenient truths is pretty short around here.

                      The IPCC saying the MWP didn’t occur because it was not present in the place they sampled would be exactly as stupid as a real RWNJ-Denier saying the ice caps are in fine form because the weather is unseasonably cold today.

                    • lprent []
                      17 August 2010 at 1:00 pm

                      I find it staggering that I’m called a RWNJ-Denier for pointing out that global warming models were shaken by new research in 2009.

                      What “new research”. Just because you haven’t read about it before?

                      We’re rubbishing you because you’re so illiterate that you think the research is revelatory. In fact it a simple confirmation of something that anyone who reads even briefly over the field has had as a working assumption for at least 30 years. The only people who seem to think that it is earth-shattering are the RWNJ’s/CCD’s who have been holding onto a euro-centric climate view that was disproven decades ago. The ones that waffle on about MWP, mini-iceages, etc.

                      That the northern and southern hemispheres lead quite different lives in climate has been a working assumption theory from when I was doing climatology in the early 80’s. If you read the article (rather than just scanning to reinforce your illiterate idiocies)…

                      He said much of it reinforced work done 30 years ago by Canterbury University researcher Professor Colin Burrows, who used NZ glacier data to highlight some of the similarities and differences between northern and southern records over the past 12,000 years.

                      Now even a scientific fool like you has to know that a model is a just model. It incorporates various levels on uncertainty in theory. Now in practice the theory that the hemispheres are disconnected has been well established for a long time, and is incorporated into the models used by the IPCC volume 1. What happened here is that one of the premises has been partially confirmed. However It has taken 30 years to confirm that (with a high degree of certainty) for a country well away from the equator that is in fact the case.

                      What would have been more interesting is if that the evidence pointed the other way. Then it would have pointed to a basic flaw in the models at least as far as our latitudes are concerned. Incidentally, this plus results from other countries that means that there is still considerable work to be done on the latitudes between here and the equator.

                      Now if you were unaware of all of this, then I’d have to ask how you missed it on this site. In fact it is the basis that I rubbish the various scientific illiterates like the CRC who waffle on about MWP and mini-iceages as happening at the same time worldwide rather than being the regional events we’ve known they have been for decades.

                    • NickS …
                      17 August 2010 at 12:55 pm

                      Of course one of the first things you learn in science is that when a model is incapable of reproducing the real world events that the model is incomplete, it’s inputs are corrupted or it is simply wrong. I find it staggering that I’m called a RWNJ-Denier for pointing out that global warming models were shaken by new research in 2009. Messenger life expectancy when delivering inconvenient truths is pretty short around here.

                      /facepalm

                      Lolwut? The only thing you pointed out where refinements on measuring the recession and growth of glaciers over time. Which only impacts on the climate models by giving us a better picture into ENSO fluctuations over the last couple of centuries, rather than say completely altering the models which show strongly that CO2 is main driver in the increase in the Earth’s temperature over the last century.

                      It’s not that hard burt, also we’re criticising you not because your message is “inconvenient” but because it contains clear falsehoods. Hey look, that’s another delusion on your part burt.

                      The IPCC saying the MWP didn’t occur because it was not present in the place they sampled would be exactly as stupid as a real RWNJ-Denier saying the ice caps are in fine form because the weather is unseasonably cold today.

                      Right…
                      http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=medieval+warm+period&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2001&as_sdtp=on

                      Here’s an idea, why don’t you go read the fucking literature instead of making evidence free claims? Particularly as it’s well established at present that the MWP was likely not global, not occurring worldwide at the same time, rather it was regional, with warming and cooling periods occurring at different times worldwide. Resulting in a far, far small net average rise in temperatures that the latest reconstructions show. With a warming rate that was no where near the one recorded in the 20th century.

                      Also, when reading teh literature, you actually have to put papers in context, for example we have Broeckers somewhat now semi-infamous* 2001 paper Was the Medieval Warm Period Global?. Problem is, there’s 9 years of research since it’s been published, that’s 9 years of gathering new information, processing it and publishing it. Which means it would be somewhat foolish of you to not go through the citation record for it on google scholar, let alone actually read the paper first. As Broecker notes clearly again and again that further information is needed to ascertain whether or not the MWP was actually global.

                      Or you could just go read the IPCC reports, since they do actually go through all the relevant, properly reviewed literature on climate change.

                      But that would require you to do some work.
                      _____________________________________
                      *this is mostly because the paper was quote mined by denialists to give us the “UNSTOPPABLE GLOBAL WARMING EVERY 1500 YEARS!” meme. Much like the “irreducible complexity” meme in creationism, it refuses to fully die when hit with actual science.

                    • burt …
                      17 August 2010 at 1:41 pm

                      lprent you said;

                      That the northern and southern hemispheres lead quite different lives in climate has been a working assumption theory from when I was doing climatology in the early 80′s.

                      The linked article said;

                      The first direct confirmation of differences in glacier behaviour between the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, the new work topples theories based on climate in the Northern Hemisphere changing in tandem with the climate in the Southern Hemisphere.

                      So you must have disagreed with the theories in the IPCC work that assumed a synchronisation between the Northern & Southern hemispheres? But let me guess, even if you disagreed with their methods and models you just knew their predictions were valid becasue they matched your own more advanced understanding which was not proven till 2009.

                    • lprent []
                      17 August 2010 at 3:19 pm

                      There are still theories out there that say the earth is flat. Do you think that those are good working theories as well?

                      I’d suggest that you READ the article (something that you have managed to fail to show any understanding of to date).

                      What they said was that this topples the theories that said the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere changed in tandem. It did not say that a new theory was put into play, in fact the article mentioned work from 30 years ago which looked at the validity of several theories extant at the time.

                      30 years ago, no-one really knew which of the theories about north/south climate linkage were more or less valid than the others. There was very little verifiable evidence between any of the theories (mostly based on timing differences). However it was pretty evident from the O16/18 ratios that there were significant differences in deep water, either from current changes or from climate changes.

                      In the 30 years since there has a been a pile of evidence that shows quite a lot of disjunction between events in at least some periods between the north and southern hemisphere in both the oceans and the land surface. This is just another instance, along with the material that shows in Antarctica, Peru, Aussie, etc. It is hardly earth-shaking…

                      Perhaps you should consider that the NZ Herald isn’t exactly a scientific publication. They take some artistic license in using the word ‘topples’…

                      ….they matched your own more advanced understanding which was not proven till 2009.

                      And here you show yourself to be a scientific idiot again. It isn’t proven that climate linkage theories aren’t valid in at least some periods and under some conditions. It is simply less probable than before this study was done.

                      I’d suggest that you do a remedial statistical course so you get some idea of what we’re talking about. Perhaps we could encourage your fellow illiterates at the CSC to attend as well.

                • NickS …
                  17 August 2010 at 11:45 am

                  They prefer the certainty of newtonian physics rather than the chaotic probabilities of quantum uncertainty.

                  What?

                  It’s more they don’t understand complexity that emerges when dealing with multiple variables, such as the N Body Problem in Newtonian physics, or gene expression networks, or food webs, and nutrient/energy flow through them. All of which are generally fraught with uncertainties. So really they more prefer strawman versions of science, where in certainty is always absolute. Just like in Religion, or with RWNJ and the somewhat rarer these days Stalinists etc.

                  • lprent …
                    17 August 2010 at 11:55 am

                    I was also thinking on the epicycle conundrum even prior to Newton. It was a triumph of ‘common sense’ over reality that took hundreds of years and a hell of a lot of computation with an increasingly complex (incorrect) solutions.

                    I thought it would fit a particular mindset perfectly, and one that these idiot cranks from the CRC display. They are quite useful idiots for someone. The interesting part is to figure out exactly who is funding this delaying timewaster..

                    • NickS …
                      17 August 2010 at 12:08 pm

                      Yeah, but epicycles where the product of mindset that wasn’t examined until the Renaissance, which was described in my lectures as “saving the phenomena”, established by one of the Greek astronomers. It wasn’t so much common sense as it was the result of philosophical ideas being more in front than concepts of empiricism within Greek astronomy. And when you add that to the natural, annoying, human tendency towards venerating ancestors, that’s pretty much what ended up creating that wee mess.

                      Also, one of the Greek astronomers actually had a heliocentric model of the solar system, but it remained in the background until Arab astronomers picked up on it during the Golden Age of Islam.

    • lprent 10.3
      16 August 2010 at 2:01 pm

      YR:

      Bullshit. That is the crap that the CSC nutters used to peddle (you really need to get up to date with nutter mythology)

      However even they’ve had to acknowledge that there has been an overall warming trend since 1850 – which they consider is from the gradual warming up from a ‘mini-ice-age’* in the 17th and 18th century.

      So even amongst nutters, you look like an idiot.

      * For the moment lets ignore the lack of convincing evidence in the proxy records that this ever happened in NZ as a coherent climate shift. It looks like different parts of the country had different effects at different times. The CCS morons cherry pick their research to try and force it into a european mould.

    • mickysavage 10.4
      16 August 2010 at 2:47 pm

      So lets get the lawyers to make a call on this one. Of course they are far more accomplished at making scientific conclusions on huge amounts of data than the scientists are, arn’t they?

  11. r0b 11
    16 August 2010 at 1:36 pm

    See the new links in the update to the post.

  12. NickS 12
    16 August 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Heh, Rob beat me to it, I was going to contribute a post…

    Actually, I might still.

    Anyhow, some extra stuff:
    http://sciblogs.co.nz/the-atavism/2009/12/13/peer-review-for-the-climate-science-coalition/
    http://openparachute.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/new-zealands-denier-gate/

    There’s a few more bits out there on the NZ Climate “science” coalition, but I still need to go hunting for them.

    • r0b 12.1
      16 August 2010 at 1:41 pm

      Actually, I might still.

      Please do!

      • NickS 12.1.1
        16 August 2010 at 2:02 pm

        I’ll try and get in done before 6pm then 😛

        I just need to finish off a post I’ve been procrastinating on then start editing the two parts to make it into a full post for content when my blog finally goes live…

        [Yeah this was in spam – not sure why – sorry! — r0b]

      • lprent 12.1.2
        16 August 2010 at 2:02 pm

        Yep, I’ll be writing one as well (eventually).. But the more perspectives the better..

        • NickS 12.1.2.1
          16 August 2010 at 5:01 pm

          Oh yeah, I’m knocking it together with the blogspot post editor, is that going to cause any issues with cut and pasting the html version into “contribute”? Because I also have access to wordpess if that will make it easier.

        • NickS 12.1.2.2
          16 August 2010 at 7:07 pm

          Gah, still writing/researching. eta is 7:30.

          Just need to cover the links between Alan Gibbs, the NZCSC and the overseas CSC.

          And edit.

      • NickS 12.1.3
        16 August 2010 at 2:10 pm

        I’ll try and get in done before 6…

        And I think the spam filter ate my earlier reply…

  13. Frank Macskasy 13
    16 August 2010 at 1:52 pm

    A representative of the so-called “Climate Science Coalition” was interviewed on National Radio this morning. It turns out that businessman, Alan Gibbs, is a “friend” of the CSC though the spokesperson for that group couldn’t confirm or deny if Gibbs was contributing money.

    http://static.radionz.net.nz/assets/audio_item/0009/2377890/mnr-20100816-0600-Top_Stories_for_Monday_16_August_2010-m048.asx

  14. Irascible 14
    16 August 2010 at 2:24 pm

    I presume the scientist the Climate Change Coalition are using is one Rodney Hide who advertised his expertise and extensive research history on this very topic during the 2008 election campaign.

  15. mickysavage 15
    16 August 2010 at 2:52 pm

    I am not a lawyer but is there any capacity in the law to do this? To rule scientific data “invalid’?

    Off the top of my head possibly through Administrative Review if NIWA is exercising a statutory power of decision or maybe they can seek a declaratory judgment if there is some interest they can show is being affected but either seems like a real long shot.

    And who is mad enough to try and use the law to muzzle science anyway?

    Someone crazy enough not to be at least afraid that climate change might be happening.

    • Draco T Bastard 15.1
      16 August 2010 at 3:12 pm

      Actually, it’s someone who’s psychopathic enough to be concerned that their income may be threatened if climate change is taken seriously enough to produce laws that stop them from polluting for free.

      From the Pundit link

      It’s clear that Dunleavy, Leyland and Edmeades have some questions to answer. Their “charitable trust’ was registered on August 10th, and within days they had lodged their legal action with the court. Was the trust formed specifically to bring the action? I understand that using a trust to bring a legal action provides some protection for the litigants if they lose their case and find costs awarded against them. But if that is the real reason for the trust’s existence, then surely it cannot be regarded as a charitable trust? Whatever the law may say — and I am sure that Dunleavy and co will have had legal advice (C’S’C chairman Barry Brill is a retired lawyer) — it cannot be morally or ethically acceptable for them to hide behind or misuse a charitable trust in this way. It also demonstrates rather nicely that they have no confidence that their case will succeed

      They know that it’s not a viable case so they’ve covered their asses so there won’t be any negative come back on them. It’s going to cost us a few tens of thousands of dollars that could have been used better though.

      • bbfloyd 15.1.1
        16 August 2010 at 4:45 pm

        so, if seemingly intelligent people would bring a case to court knowing they have very little, or no chance of winning, then there has to be another reason to start this process.
        my question would be… whats the reward?

        • burt 15.1.1.1
          16 August 2010 at 5:08 pm

          Trust is the reward. But hey, why not box on without it – worked for the IPCC.

        • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.2
          16 August 2010 at 10:24 pm

          They get media time.

          And WTF said that they were intelligent? They’re denying fact which tends to indicate that they aren’t.

          @ burt:
          You’re still an idiot. The IPCC is trusted by those in the know (i.e. The only people who don’t trust the IPCC are the people who disbelieve reality). The Climate Science Coalition isn’t as they tend to be a bunch of ideological psychopaths.

    • mickysavage 15.2
      16 August 2010 at 3:12 pm

      Sorry for replying to myself (I know I mention the word “crazy” above) but there is some information at http://www.climatescience.org.nz/images/PDFs/niwa.ct.docs.pdf.

      One aspect is interesting, It claims that Jim Salinger was biased and that somehow his views should have been disregarded. This is the nub of the problem. The proceedings are expecting NIWA to act like a quasi judicial tribunal whereas I would prefer that it made a decision using scientific processes.

      Just saying …

  16. Manus 16
    16 August 2010 at 3:18 pm

    No matter what the reason is for global warming whether it be solar, pollution or historical geological changes that have little to do with humans. Whatever the excuse, it does not justify NIWA ‘s manipulating the science. They were not alone in fudging the data. It was being done worldwide by scientists funded and pressurised by the CO2 fear mongerers who happen to be the same Elite that cause the fiscal collapse and the false flag flu pandemic. These ‘overpopulation Malthusiasts’ even brag about culling the lot of us one way or another. So don’t be monkey with eyes, ears and mouths closed to the real world….the Truth will find them out.

    • mickysavage 16.1
      16 August 2010 at 3:45 pm

      Good to see that you have not predetermined the issue Manus.

      BTW if you are wrong will you apologise to my grandchildren?

    • Frank Macskasy 16.2
      16 August 2010 at 4:23 pm

      “They were not alone in fudging the data. ”

      What data, precisely, have they been fudging?

      And how does that relate with observed phenomena in Antarctica, the Arctic Circle, Greenland, and elsewhere, where ice-mass has been lost?

      And how can the increase in temperature and melting of ice not correlate with the rise in carbon dioxide and methane in our atmosphere?

      And if this is all some vast global conspiracy, I have two questions;

      1. How did NASA become tied in, with their collection of data by orbiting satellites?

      2. Why hasn’t anyone asked me to participate?

      • zelda 16.2.1
        16 August 2010 at 8:21 pm

        The loss of ice mass is minute and is variable anyway.
        Nasa arent involved with the collection of temperature data, merely the’ manipulation’ of it

        • NickS 16.2.1.1
          16 August 2010 at 11:29 pm

          Nasa arent involved with the collection of temperature data, merely the’ manipulation’ of it

          lolwut?

          There’s these things called “satellites”, ones which NASA not only launched, but also collects and collates the data from. As for manipulating the data, occasionally instrumentation isn’t properly calibrated on the ground, or launching into space on a barely controlled explosion can knock things slightly out. Which means someone ends up having to go bug hunting to make sure the data coming in isn’t distorted. Like say the satellite launched to measure air temperatures in the upper atmosphere that research showed was miss-calibrated.

          • mcflock 16.2.1.1.1
            17 August 2010 at 1:31 am

            NASA are big fibbers, all the old pictures from Hubble were perfectly rendered, but they used manipulation to make the blurry blobs look like stars before they could mechanically warp the mirror to make the blobs look like points.

    • Draco T Bastard 16.3
      16 August 2010 at 10:35 pm

      Wow, the Delusion is strong in this one.

      Whatever the excuse, it does not justify NIWA ‘s manipulating the science.

      The science wasn’t manipulated. This has been proven time and time again. This means that you’re believing lies made up by people who have an agenda.

      It was being done worldwide by scientists funded and pressurised by the CO2 fear mongerers who happen to be the same Elite that cause the fiscal collapse and the false flag flu pandemic.

      Strange, I’m sure Jonkey said that he disbelieves in AGW…
      Oh, wait, you’re not in touch with reality. Sorry, forgot. Here’s the truth – the financial speculators like Jonkey and the rest of the banksters caused the GFC. The scientists merely, and only, report fact and weren’t actually pressurised by any fear-mongers. Of course, you believe the fear-mongers that tell lies though…

      These ‘overpopulation Malthusiasts’ even brag about culling the lot of us one way or another.

      Another diversion from reality. The world is over populated, this is going to cause a huge amount of pain. Brag? no.

      …the Truth will find them out.

      You spend all your life disbelieving reality so I’m reasonably sure that you wouldn’t know the truth if it hit you. Which it will.

  18. RedLogix 18
    16 August 2010 at 7:03 pm

    Anyone else noticed how many engineers are CCD’ers? As an engineering type myself I rather baffled by that. In my case I actually worked for a science organisation for many years, so perhaps I gained a perspective that was missing from my Engineering course work.

    But still it’s something that peeves me.

    • zelda 18.1
      16 August 2010 at 8:18 pm

      Good record keeping and providing the data is just as essential in engineering. Or do you think that hiding their methods is ‘scientific’

      • RedLogix 18.1.1
        16 August 2010 at 10:01 pm

        I’ve enough experience to know that while superficially similar science and engineering operate in rather different domains.

        Engineering for the most part works within known and deterministic boundaries. The day to day work usually involves balancing the three traditionally competing demands of price, speed and quality, managing the innate conflicts of interest between clients and contractors, not to mention the delays, cost overuns and risk management. It’s all about getting things done and there is not a lot of room for hypothesis, experimentation and debate.

        Science for the most part is about the unknown and the yet to be determined. While budget constraints are always present to some degree, they are not a primary driver. The work involves enormous amounts of reading, proposing ideas, experimental design, gathering and cleaning data, analysing it and formally processing the results via peer-review and publishing. Science is about unravelling the unknown, it’s all about discovering, new ideas, experimentation and endless debate. It’s an inherently messier process.

        The kind of people who work in each field tend to be quite different too, although that’s a little harder to put into words, but having worked closely with both …there is no missing it once you’ve seen it. Scientists, while often rather ego driven, are usually very candid about the uncertainties and open questions they have yet to tackle. By contrast engineers, while often quite a cheery, boozy bunch…can get arrogantly cock-sure of themselves and how good they are, especially as they gain seniority.

        Yet ironically enough, most engineers are rather poor mathematicians and the last pure science course they took was many, many decades ago at a Stage 1 level. They rather tend to project their own way of thinking and dated science fundamentals onto a topic they really know rather little about…while imagining that they do.

        Or do you think that hiding their methods is ‘scientific’

        What you don’t want to see will remain hidden until you open your eyes.

        • Armchair Critic 18.1.1.1
          16 August 2010 at 10:39 pm

          “What you don’t want to see will remain hidden until you open your eyes”
          That’s the best retort I’ve seen for ages, RL

  19. mcflock 19
    16 August 2010 at 7:08 pm

    question:

    if people are organised enough to form a trust and days later launch a high court action, is it a leap to suspect that they are organised enough to coordinate a similarly-timed campaign on high-volume blogsites within the court’s jurisdiction?

    Or did they just rely on the local crop of wingnuts to spontaneously hold the public debate?

  20. tc 20
    16 August 2010 at 7:16 pm

    I don’t like the message so I’ll sue the messenger……the flat earthers are sooo predictable.

  21. george.com 21
    16 August 2010 at 7:42 pm

    I kind of welcome the deniers taking a court action. The scince will get some sort of scrutiny and if it holds up, I expect it to, another avenue of denial will be cut off for the deniers. A lost court case will undermine their position even further.

    It will of course cost the tax payer money to mount a defence for NIWA. I guess the deniers will have to explain how their actions were taxpayers money well spent. With Rodney Hide right behind them, I suspect he will be very vocal telling the tax payer how their taxes were well spent by the court case.

  22. zelda 22
    16 August 2010 at 8:15 pm

    Gee Judges cant be allowed to look at temperature records !
    How hard can that be .
    Of course NIWA wont let anybody else look at the raw records of all the temperatures they hold.
    That will now change as the ‘discovery ‘ process means that NIWA is over a barrel. The court will force them to ‘cough up’.

    Wasnt there a recent case about some Breast cancer sufferers who wanted the court to review Pharmacs decision.
    Since NIWA has refused to allow full and open disclosure of all their temperature records they are bring it upon themselves

    • RedLogix 22.1
      16 August 2010 at 10:14 pm

      Of course NIWA wont let anybody else look at the raw records of all the temperatures they hold.

      That’s an outright lie. And you know it. In my book that makes you a rather special kind of creep.

    • Draco T Bastard 22.2
      16 August 2010 at 10:44 pm

      Seven Station Data
      Eleven Station Data

      Which proves you to be a liar.

      [Thanks DTB… you beat me to it nicely….RL]

    • KJT 22.3
      16 August 2010 at 11:07 pm

      NIWA raw data. The reasoning behind methods of averaging and anything else you need to make your own graphs has been available on the net for ages. The whole lot was available for review at Waikato Uni. for one.
      Or do you think every academic in the country is in the pay of AGW conspirators. If so where do we all get our payback from.
      The science on AGW is as settled as any science can be. It is only the self interested and the loonies who persist with CCD.

    • mcflock 22.4
      17 August 2010 at 2:07 am

      “Wasnt there a recent case about some Breast cancer sufferers who wanted the court to review Pharmacs decision.”

      Oh. You must mean Herceptin.

      Detailed summary of the public campaign and a summary of the court case – note that the only High Court argument tosucceed in second-guessing Pharmac was procedural, in that it didn’t consult widely enough before making the decision. It also has the intriguing comment “In his decision, Justice Gendall did not comment on the merits of the treatment options.” I.E. the science was not being debated.

      http://www.herceptinriders.co.nz/herceptinriders.php?page=51

      And the coup d’grace, which explicitly states that the decision was overruled by the government (and bugger me if it wasn’t an election issue), not the courts or even new scientific data:

      http://www.guide2.co.nz/politics/news/pharmac-says-it-respects039-govt-second-guessing-herceptin-choice/11/6624

      So basically, you’re trying to argue in favour of courts dictating scientific conclusions by using the pain of cancer sufferers in a misleading way.

      What an odious little worm you are.

  23. Lats 23
    17 August 2010 at 1:39 pm

    Hmm, my understanding is that CSC’s main objection (aside from being CCD’s) is that NIWA modified data from some collection stations. Further, I have been led to believe that NIWA did this in order to normalise the time series data when, for reasons unknown to me, data collection stations had to be moved. Differences between microclimates at sites could be influenced by a number of factors such as altitude, wind patterns, proximity to water bodies, other local geography, urbanisation, etc. If the data collected at the old and relocated sites are different then it seems entirely reasonable to adjust one set of data in order to present a contiguous series of data as if they came from the one location. Otherwise one would be comparing apples with oranges (or PC’s for those with a technical bent) and no meaningful conclusions could be determined.

    Of course I get this info as hearsay (readsay? was from Open Parachutes) so it is possible I am mistaken.

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    The top six news links I’ve seen elsewhere in the last 24 hours, as of 9:16 am on Thursday, April 18 are:Housing: Tauranga residents living in boats, vans RNZ Checkpoint Louise TernouthHousing: Waikato councillor says wastewater plant issues could hold up Sleepyhead building a massive company town Waikato Times Stephen ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago

  • Gordon Campbell on the public sector carnage, and misogyny as terrorism
    It’s a simple deal. We pay taxes in order to finance the social services we want and need. The carnage now occurring across the public sector though, is breaking that contract. Over 3,000 jobs have been lost so far. Many are in crucial areas like Education where the impact of ...
    Gordon CampbellBy lyndon
    1 day ago

  • Meeting the Master Baiters
    Hi,A friend had their 40th over the weekend and decided to theme it after Curb Your Enthusiasm fashion icon Susie Greene. Captured in my tiny kitchen before I left the house, I ending up evoking a mix of old lesbian and Hillary Clinton — both unintentional.Me vs Hillary ClintonIf you’re ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    1 day ago

  • How extreme was the Earth's temperature in 2023
    This is a re-post from Andrew Dessler at the Climate Brink blog In 2023, the Earth reached temperature levels unprecedented in modern times. Given that, it’s reasonable to ask: What’s going on? There’s been lots of discussions by scientists about whether this is just the normal progression of global warming or if something ...
    Skeptical Science
    1 day ago

  • Backbone, revisited
    The schools are on holiday and the sun is shining in the seaside village and all day long I have been seeing bunches of bikes; Mums, Dads, teens and toddlers chattering, laughing, happy, having a bloody great time together. Cheers, AT, for the bits of lane you’ve added lately around the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago

  • Ministers are not above the law
    Today in our National-led authoritarian nightmare: Shane Jones thinks Ministers should be above the law: New Zealand First MP Shane Jones is accusing the Waitangi Tribunal of over-stepping its mandate by subpoenaing a minister for its urgent hearing on the Oranga Tamariki claim. The tribunal is looking into the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago

  • What’s the outfit you can hear going down the gurgler? Probably it’s David Parker’s Oceans Sec...
    Buzz from the Beehive Point  of Order first heard of the Oceans Secretariat in June 2021, when David Parker (remember him?) announced a multi-agency approach to protecting New Zealand’s marine ecosystems and fisheries. Parker (holding the Environment, and Oceans and Fisheries portfolios) broke the news at the annual Forest & ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    2 days ago

  • Will politicians let democracy die in the darkness?
    Bryce Edwards writes  – Politicians across the political spectrum are implicated in the New Zealand media’s failing health. Either through neglect or incompetent interventions, successive governments have failed to regulate, foster, and allow a healthy Fourth Estate that can adequately hold politicians and the powerful to account. ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago

  • Matt Doocey doubles down on trans “healthcare”
    Citizen Science writes –  Last week saw two significant developments in the debate over the treatment of trans-identifying children and young people – the release in Britain of the final report of Dr Hilary Cass’s review into gender healthcare, and here in New Zealand, the news that the ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago

  • A TikTok Prime Minister.
    One night while sleeping in my bed I had a beautiful dreamThat all the people of the world got together on the same wavelengthAnd began helping one anotherNow in this dream, universal love was the theme of the dayPeace and understanding and it happened this wayAfter such an eventful day ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago

  • Texas Lessons
    This is a guest post by Oscar Simms who is a housing activist, volunteer for the Coalition for More Homes, and was the Labour Party candidate for Auckland Central at the last election. ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    2 days ago

  • Bernard's pick 'n' mix of the news links at 6:06 am
    The top six news links I’ve seen elsewhere in the last 24 hours as of 6:06 am on Wednesday, April 17 are:Must read: Secrecy shrouds which projects might be fast-tracked RNZ Farah HancockScoop: Revealed: Luxon has seven staffers working on social media content - partly paid for by taxpayer Newshub ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago

  • Fighting poverty on the holiday highway
    Turning what Labour called the “holiday highway” into a four-lane expressway from Auckland to Whangarei could bring at least an economic benefit of nearly two billion a year for Northland each year. And it could help bring an end to poverty in one of New Zealand’s most deprived regions. The ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    2 days ago

  • Bernard's six-stack of substacks at 6:26 pm
    Tonight’s six-stack includes: launching his substack with a bunch of his previous documentaries, including this 1992 interview with Dame Whina Cooper. and here crew give climate activists plenty to do, including this call to submit against the Fast Track Approvals bill. writes brilliantly here on his substack ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago

  • At a glance – Is the science settled?
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    Skeptical Science
    3 days ago

  • Apposite Quotations.
    How Long Is Long Enough? Gaza under Israeli bombardment, July 2014. This posting is exclusive to Bowalley Road. ...
    Bowalley Road
    3 days ago

  • What’s a life worth now?
    You're in the mall when you hear it: some kind of popping sound in the distance, kids with fireworks, maybe. But then a moment of eerie stillness is followed by more of the fireworks sound and there’s also screaming and shrieking and now here come people running for their lives.Does ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago

  • Howling at the Moon
    Karl du Fresne writes –  There’s a crisis in the news media and the media are blaming it on everyone except themselves. Culpability is being deflected elsewhere – mainly to the hapless Minister of Communications, Melissa Lee, and the big social media platforms that are accused of hoovering ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago

  • Newshub is Dead.
    I don’t normally send out two newsletters in a day but I figured I’d say something about… the news. If two newsletters is a bit much then maybe just skip one, I don’t want to overload people. Alternatively if you’d be interested in sometimes receiving multiple, smaller updates from me, ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago

  • Seymour is chuffed about cutting early-learning red tape – but we hear, too, that Jones has loose...
    Buzz from the Beehive David Seymour and Winston Peters today signalled that at least two ministers of the Crown might be in Wellington today. Seymour (as Associate Minister of Education) announced the removal of more red tape, this time to make it easier for new early learning services to be ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago

  • Bryce Edwards: Will politicians let democracy die in the darkness?
    Politicians across the political spectrum are implicated in the New Zealand media’s failing health. Either through neglect or incompetent interventions, successive governments have failed to regulate, foster, and allow a healthy Fourth Estate that can adequately hold politicians and the powerful to account. Our political system is suffering from the ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    3 days ago

  • Was Hawkesby entirely wrong?
    David Farrar  writes –  The Broadcasting Standards Authority ruled: Comments by radio host Kate Hawkesby suggesting Māori and Pacific patients were being prioritised for surgery due to their ethnicity were misleading and discriminatory, the Broadcasting Standards Authority has found. It is a fact such patients are prioritised. ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago

  • PRC shadow looms as the Solomons head for election
    PRC and its proxies in Solomons have been preparing for these elections for a long time. A lot of money, effort and intelligence have gone into ensuring an outcome that won’t compromise Beijing’s plans. Cleo Paskall writes – On April 17th the Solomon Islands, a country of ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago

  • Climate Change: Criminal ecocide
    We are in the middle of a climate crisis. Last year was (again) the hottest year on record. NOAA has just announced another global coral bleaching event. Floods are threatening UK food security. So naturally, Shane Jones wants to make it easier to mine coal: Resources Minister Shane Jones ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago

  • Is saving one minute of a politician's time worth nearly $1 billion?
    Is speeding up the trip to and from Wellington airport by 12 minutes worth spending up more than $10 billion? Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The six news items that stood out to me in the last day to 8:26 am today are:The Lead: Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago

  • Long Tunnel or Long Con?
    Yesterday it was revealed that Transport Minister had asked Waka Kotahi to look at the options for a long tunnel through Wellington. State Highway 1 (SH1) through Wellington City is heavily congested at peak times and while planning continues on the duplicate Mt Victoria Tunnel and Basin Reserve project, the ...
    Greater AucklandBy Matt L
    3 days ago

  • Smoke And Mirrors.
    You're a fraud, and you know itBut it's too good to throw it all awayAnyone would do the sameYou've got 'em goingAnd you're careful not to show itSometimes you even fool yourself a bitIt's like magicBut it's always been a smoke and mirrors gameAnyone would do the sameForty six billion ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago

  • What is Mexico doing about climate change?
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections The June general election in Mexico could mark a turning point in ensuring that the country’s climate policies better reflect the desire of its citizens to address the climate crisis, with both leading presidential candidates expressing support for renewable energy. Mexico is the ...
    Skeptical Science
    3 days ago

  • State of humanity, 2024
    2024, it feels, keeps presenting us with ever more challenges, ever more dismay.Do you give up yet? It seems to ask.No? How about this? Or this?How about this?When I say 2024 I really mean the state of humanity in 2024.Saturday night, we watched Civil War because that is one terrifying cliff we've ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago

  • Govt’s Wellington tunnel vision aims to ease the way to the airport (but zealous promoters of cycl...
    Buzz from the Beehive A pet project and governmental tunnel vision jump out from the latest batch of ministerial announcements. The government is keen to assure us of its concern for the wellbeing of our pets. It will be introducing pet bonds in a change to the Residential Tenancies Act ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago

  • The case for cultural connectedness
    A recent report generated from a Growing Up in New Zealand (GUiNZ) survey of 1,224 rangatahi Māori aged 11-12 found: Cultural connectedness was associated with fewer depression symptoms, anxiety symptoms and better quality of life. That sounds cut and dry. But further into the report the following appears: Cultural connectedness is ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago

  • Useful context on public sector job cuts
    David Farrar writes –    The Herald reports: From the gory details of job-cuts news, you’d think the public service was being eviscerated.   While the media’s view of the cuts is incomplete, it’s also true that departments have been leaking the particulars faster than a Wellington ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago

  • Gordon Campbell On When Racism Comes Disguised As Anti-racism
    Remember the good old days, back when New Zealand had a PM who could think and speak calmly and intelligently in whole sentences without blustering? Even while Iran’s drones and missiles were still being launched, Helen Clark was live on TVNZ expertly summing up the latest crisis in the Middle ...
    Gordon CampbellBy lyndon
    4 days ago

  • Govt ignored economic analysis of smokefree reversal
    Costello did not pass on analysis of the benefits of the smokefree reforms to Cabinet, emphasising instead the extra tax revenues of repealing them. Photo: Hagen Hopkins, Getty Images TL;DR: The six news items that stood out to me at 7:26 am today are:The Lead: Casey Costello never passed on ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago

  • True Blue.
    True loveYou're the one I'm dreaming ofYour heart fits me like a gloveAnd I'm gonna be true blueBaby, I love youI’ve written about the job cuts in our news media last week. The impact on individuals, and the loss to Aotearoa of voices covering our news from different angles.That by ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago

  • Who is running New Zealand’s foreign policy?
    While commentators, including former Prime Minister Helen Clark, are noting a subtle shift in New Zealand’s foreign policy, which now places more emphasis on the United States, many have missed a key element of the shift. What National said before the election is not what the government is doing now. ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    4 days ago

  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #15
    A listing of 31 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, April 7, 2024 thru Sat, April 13, 2024. Story of the week Our story of the week is about adults in the room setting terms and conditions of ...
    Skeptical Science
    5 days ago

  • Feline Friends and Fragile Fauna The Complexities of Cats in New Zealand’s Conservation Efforts

    Cats, with their independent spirit and beguiling purrs, have captured the hearts of humans for millennia. In New Zealand, felines are no exception, boasting the highest national cat ownership rate globally [definition cat nz cat foundation]. An estimated 1.134 million pet cats grace Kiwi households, compared to 683,000 dogs ...

    Gareth’s WorldBy admin
    5 days ago

  • Or is that just they want us to think?
    Nice guy, that Peter Williams. Amiable, a calm air of no-nonsense capability, a winning smile. Everything you look for in a TV presenter and newsreader.I used to see him sometimes when I went to TVNZ to be a talking head or a panellist and we would yarn. Nice guy, that ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago

  • Fact Brief – Did global warming stop in 1998?
    Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park in collaboration with members from our Skeptical Science team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Did global warming stop in ...
    Skeptical Science
    6 days ago

  • Arguing over a moot point.
    I have been following recent debates in the corporate and social media about whether it is a good idea for NZ to join what is known as “AUKUS Pillar Two.” AUKUS is the Australian-UK-US nuclear submarine building agreement in which … Continue reading → ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    6 days ago

  • No Longer Trusted: Ageing Boomers, Laurie & Les, Talk Politics.
    Turning Point: “What has turned me away from the mainstream news media is the very strong message that its been sending out for the last few years.” “And what message might that be?” “That the people who own it, the people who run it, and the people who provide its content, really don’t ...
    Bowalley Road
    6 days ago

  • Mortgage rates at 10% anyone?
    No – nothing about that in PM Luxon’s nine-point plan to improve the lives of New Zealanders. But beyond our shores Jamie Dimon, the long-serving head of global bank J.P. Morgan Chase, reckons that the chances of a goldilocks soft landing for the economy are “a lot lower” than the ...
    Point of OrderBy xtrdnry
    6 days ago

  • Anzac commemorations, Türkiye relationship focus of visit
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul.    “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 hour ago

  • Minister to Europe for OECD meeting, Anzac Day
    Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 hours ago

  • Comprehensive Partnership the goal for NZ and the Philippines
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr.  The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    15 hours ago

  • Government commits $20m to Westport flood protection
    The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    21 hours ago

  • Taupō takes pole position
    The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    22 hours ago

  • Cost of living support for low-income homeowners
    Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners.  “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago

  • Government backing mussel spat project
    The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago

  • Government focused on getting people into work
    Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago

  • Clean energy key driver to reducing emissions
    The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago

  • Earthquake-prone buildings review brought forward
    The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago

  • Thailand and NZ to agree to Strategic Partnership
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Government consults on extending coastal permits for ports
    RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Inflation coming down, but more work to do
    Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • School attendance restored as a priority in health advice
    Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Unnecessary bureaucracy cut in oceans sector
    Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago

  • Patterson promoting NZ’s wool sector at International Congress
    Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector.    "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • Removing red tape to help early learners thrive
    The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • RMA changes to cut coal mining consent red tape
    Changes to the Resource Management Act will align consenting for coal mining to other forms of mining to reduce barriers that are holding back economic development, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The inconsistent treatment of coal mining compared with other extractive activities is burdensome red tape that fails to acknowledge ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • McClay reaffirms strong NZ-China trade relationship
    Trade, Agriculture and Forestry Minister Todd McClay has concluded productive discussions with ministerial counterparts in Beijing today, in support of the New Zealand-China trade and economic relationship. “My meeting with Commerce Minister Wang Wentao reaffirmed the complementary nature of the bilateral trade relationship, with our Free Trade Agreement at its ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago

  • Prime Minister Luxon acknowledges legacy of Singapore Prime Minister Lee
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today paid tribute to Singapore’s outgoing Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong.   Meeting in Singapore today immediately before Prime Minister Lee announced he was stepping down, Prime Minister Luxon warmly acknowledged his counterpart’s almost twenty years as leader, and the enduring legacy he has left for Singapore and South East ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago

  • PMs Luxon and Lee deepen Singapore-NZ ties
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. While in Singapore as part of his visit to South East Asia this week, Prime Minister Luxon also met with Singapore President Tharman Shanmugaratnam and will meet with Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong.  During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago

  • Antarctica New Zealand Board appointments
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has made further appointments to the Board of Antarctica New Zealand as part of a continued effort to ensure the Scott Base Redevelopment project is delivered in a cost-effective and efficient manner.  The Minister has appointed Neville Harris as a new member of the Board. Mr ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago

  • Finance Minister travels to Washington DC
    Finance Minister Nicola Willis will travel to the United States on Tuesday to attend a meeting of the Five Finance Ministers group, with counterparts from Australia, the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom.  “I am looking forward to meeting with our Five Finance partners on how we can work ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago

  • Pet bonds a win/win for renters and landlords
    The coalition Government has today announced purrfect and pawsitive changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to give tenants with pets greater choice when looking for a rental property, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Pets are important members of many Kiwi families. It’s estimated that around 64 per cent of New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago

  • Long Tunnel for SH1 Wellington being considered
    State Highway 1 (SH1) through Wellington City is heavily congested at peak times and while planning continues on the duplicate Mt Victoria Tunnel and Basin Reserve project, the Government has also asked NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) to consider and provide advice on a Long Tunnel option, Transport Minister Simeon Brown ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago

  • New Zealand condemns Iranian strikes
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Foreign Minister Winston Peters have condemned Iran’s shocking and illegal strikes against Israel.    “These attacks are a major challenge to peace and stability in a region already under enormous pressure," Mr Luxon says.    "We are deeply concerned that miscalculation on any side could ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago

  • Huge interest in Government’s infrastructure plans
    Hundreds of people in little over a week have turned out in Northland to hear Regional Development Minister Shane Jones speak about plans for boosting the regional economy through infrastructure. About 200 people from the infrastructure and associated sectors attended an event headlined by Mr Jones in Whangarei today. Last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago

  • Health Minister thanks outgoing Health New Zealand Chair
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has today thanked outgoing Health New Zealand – Te Whatu Ora Chair Dame Karen Poutasi for her service on the Board.   “Dame Karen tendered her resignation as Chair and as a member of the Board today,” says Dr Reti.  “I have asked her to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago

  • Roads of National Significance planning underway
    The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has signalled their proposed delivery approach for the Government’s 15 Roads of National Significance (RoNS), with the release of the State Highway Investment Proposal (SHIP) today, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Navigating an unstable global environment
    New Zealand is renewing its connections with a world facing urgent challenges by pursuing an active, energetic foreign policy, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “Our country faces the most unstable global environment in decades,” Mr Peters says at the conclusion of two weeks of engagements in Egypt, Europe and the United States.    “We cannot afford to sit back in splendid ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • NZ welcomes Australian Governor-General
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced the Australian Governor-General, His Excellency General The Honourable David Hurley and his wife Her Excellency Mrs Linda Hurley, will make a State visit to New Zealand from Tuesday 16 April to Thursday 18 April. The visit reciprocates the State visit of former Governor-General Dame Patsy Reddy ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Pseudoephedrine back on shelves for Winter
    Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced that Medsafe has approved 11 cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine. Pharmaceutical suppliers have indicated they may be able to supply the first products in June. “This is much earlier than the original expectation of medicines being available by 2025. The Government recognised ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • NZ and the US: an ever closer partnership
    New Zealand and the United States have recommitted to their strategic partnership in Washington DC today, pledging to work ever more closely together in support of shared values and interests, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “The strategic environment that New Zealand and the United States face is considerably more ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Joint US and NZ declaration
    April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • NZ and US to undertake further practical Pacific cooperation
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced further New Zealand cooperation with the United States in the Pacific Islands region through $16.4 million in funding for initiatives in digital connectivity and oceans and fisheries research.   “New Zealand can achieve more in the Pacific if we work together more urgently and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Government redress for Te Korowai o Wainuiārua
    The Government is continuing the bipartisan effort to restore its relationship with iwi as the Te Korowai o Wainuiārua Claims Settlement Bill passed its first reading in Parliament today, says Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith. “Historical grievances of Te Korowai o Wainuiārua relate to 19th century warfare, land purchased or taken ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Focus on outstanding minerals permit applications
    New Zealand Petroleum and Minerals is working to resolve almost 150 outstanding minerals permit applications by the end of the financial year, enabling valuable mining activity and signalling to the sector that New Zealand is open for business, Resources Minister Shane Jones says.  “While there are no set timeframes for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Applications open for NZ-Ireland Research Call
    The New Zealand and Irish governments have today announced that applications for the 2024 New Zealand-Ireland Joint Research Call on Agriculture and Climate Change are now open. This is the third research call in the three-year Joint Research Initiative pilot launched in 2022 by the Ministry for Primary Industries and Ireland’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Tenancy rules changes to improve rental market
    The coalition Government has today announced changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to encourage landlords back to the rental property market, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “The previous Government waged a war on landlords. Many landlords told us this caused them to exit the rental market altogether. It caused worse ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Boosting NZ’s trade and agricultural relationship with China
    Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay will visit China next week, to strengthen relationships, support Kiwi exporters and promote New Zealand businesses on the world stage. “China is one of New Zealand’s most significant trade and economic relationships and remains an important destination for New Zealand’s products, accounting for nearly 22 per cent of our good and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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