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Big trouble for Groser

Written By: - Date published: 7:45 am, August 31st, 2012 - 63 comments
Categories: national/act government - Tags:

Suspicion is turning to Minister Tim Groser as Government witchhunter Paula Rebstock searches for the person who leaked information on Murray McCully’s botched reforms of Mfat to Phil Goff. As I understand it, the suspicion is not that Groser directly told Goff but that Groser was ‘too loose’ in talking to some public servants about his criticisms of McCully’s botched reforms, who then became conduits for the information to Goff.

Key has said there’s nothing unusual in Rebstock questioning Groser but the fact remains that only a handful of people had official access to some of the information Goff received and Groser was one of them. I guess we’ll have to see what happens when Rebstock reports but it’ll be entertaining to watch if Key somehow has to excuse Groser’s actions in the interest of getting him appointed head of the WTO next year.

63 comments on “Big trouble for Groser ”

  1. Carol 1

    Yes, I heard Goff talking about this on RNZ checkpoint yesterday:


    Foreign affairs spokesperson Phil Goff says inquiry head Paula Rebstock is now following information she apparently has that Trade Minster Tim Groser spoke out against the proposals to other senior public servants.

    Mr Goff says on the face of it, that represents a fundamental breach of collective Cabinet responsibility and confidentiality.

    Mr Key dismissed the allegations on Thursday.

    “It’s not at all unusual for a minister to be spoken to when these reports are done. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be done with integrity and, in that regard, of course Tim would be a person that would be spoken to.”

    Mr Goff says the inquiry has backfired on the Government and while Mr Groser is facing scrutiny, the real culprit is Foreign Affairs Minister Murray McCully.

    Goff has been doing some sturdy work in his shadow portfolio role.

    • TighyRighty 1.1

      Just like his last role though, still a shadow. He disappears at midday. Which I think is when polling occurs?

  2. ghostwhowalksnz 2

    Well that would be the second ‘green on blue’ strike from within National, its widely believed Wayne Mapp was passing on info and when found out told he had to move on.

    • felix 2.1

      ‘green on blue’?

      • Bastables 2.1.1

        ‘green on blue’? A statement coined from rising incidence of Afghan military/police allies shooting USA/NATO/Allies intentionally.

        As opposed to blue on blue where ones side/allies mistakenly target a ‘friend’ due to mistaken identity, fog of war etc.

        • Bunji

          In the Pentagon enemies are red, your forces are blue, supposed allies are green.

          • Bastables

            Within NATO, friendly units are represented as blue, so USAF units shooting up British army units due to friendly fire is blue on blue. (NZ also uses NATO map symbology inspite of not being a part of NATO).

            That allies such as the Afgan government unit are now considered green as opposed to our side aka blue it pretty telling.

            Walk into any NZ battalion/coy ops room and NZ units, Aussie units, and our allies such as Irish or Singaporean units etc are drawn up as blue symbols on the maps. Green to designate allied units is a brand new thing.

            This innovation expresses that Afgans are not really on our side, one can tell at a glance which units are not 100%. Green on blue in use in the context of National political shenanigans is short hand that internally they’re not really on the same side.

            NZ PRT unit in afgan would be represented with blue colour’s on US maps as we fall under their command structure. Blue was the colour historically used by Prussian staff officers to represent their own side on maps, Western militarily have post war co-opted the colour and it’s meaning.

          • Frank Macskasy

            Hence why the Republican colours are red?!

            • Bastables

              The American political system does not have it’s origins informed by Prussian deployments of a professional officer class and the standisations used by Staff officer institutions and concepts.

              Prussian staff designations
              b= Intelligence
              c = Operations

              Nato/NZ (originally french internal development of Prussian staff system)
              1= Logistics
              3= Operations

              So the officer (Lt although sometimes even a capt or Major) in battalion is designated S2 as is his/her “cell” or S2 cell which will contain his/her intelligence NCO’s and per’s. NZ infantry battalions tend to be operations based so the S3 is usually headed by a Major and S2 is a lt and the weight given to operational concerns is correspondingly higher

              You don’t have civilian organisations following military organisation or it colour coding because they’re not drawing from historical military developments.

              Wiki argues that until 2000 the following was not used Red=republican Blue=Democratic. The colors assigned are a relatively recent innovation in US party politics.


              • Bastables

                Sorry 1/a is personal not logistics
                the entire point of Staff officers and the professionalisation was to counter act the “amateur” nature of Battalion/Regt/Brigade command officers who tended to be landed gentry/upper class.

                Simplistically it’s a parallel development of the Civil service/politician divide in democratic societies. Unlike the prussian’s British systems are a development of failures during the Crimean/Boer/WWI and switches officers from leader ship and staff roles so they understand both aspects of the job and to avoid the disconnects that occurred previously.

              • Robert M

                Actually a pretty interesting indicator in relation to 20c and 21C is the Nazi definition of those with mental health problems. Blue- to live , Red + to die. It really sums up what the whole German political philosphy of the time was about – and was probably intended to be applied to the population generally, as the real reason the camps and places like Auschwch were being designed was not to deal with the small number of Isreali people who had not already been left the nation or been financed out of it , but to hit the hard left,unionists and proletariat generally.
                The Nazi’s were generally hostile to the idea of psychiatry and psychiatrists, just as they were hostile to all religion, not just the Jewish religion. The truth was they were just as hostile to Christianity and Catholicism. The basis diet of Das Corps was relentless exposure of underage buggery in monestaries and catholic institutions. It was just not politic for the Nazis and the SS Police departments to move against the Catholic churgh at the time.
                In terms of the changing color classification of the Republicans and Democrats it reflects the fact that generally the richer states have changed their support from Republican to Republican, although that partly reflects the changing ethnic mix in say , California and it will be interesting to see whether the Professional classes continue to support the Democrats. During the w43 era 2000-08, 55% of those with incomes over $100,000 still actually voted Republican.
                German military training in the 1930’s were suburb. A number of leading US generals in WW2 and the Cold war trained in the Nazi staff colleges. Also the later 5 star general Orde Wingate as deputy head of British intelligence in Palestine in the late 1930’s effectively working as a double agent for the Isreali’s party under Churchills instruction- modelled the doctrine and practice of the future Stern gang and Isreali armed forces on Nazi terror and operational practice. One of Wingates innovations was Isreali auxilary forces would run , quietly into Palestine villages with the red taillight on , on, the front of the jeep, to give the impression they were leaving. This was practice adopted by the SS and SA running into KPD suburbs. Wingates inflitration of agents in to Palestine villages to gain intelligence on who in each village was intellligent , stabalising, leadership potential ( all for future elimination- when the events that happened in 1948- as Wingate forseen) also seems standard US and Western practice and entirely justified and German modelled. I am a supporter of Isreal and the USA>

      • mike e 2.1.2

        Head lines Groser Weeded out by Rebstock

  3. TighyRighty 3

    So civil servants aligned with labour can’t be trusted is what you are saying? What a good look that is for the PSA

    • Te Reo Putake 3.1

      Your statement makes no sense. There is no evidence that McCully, Groser or the staff in their offices are PSA members, is there? And the PSA is not aligned to Labour anyway, so it’s not likely to be the conduit for this info either.

      • DropDead 3.1.1

        Isn’t aligned with Labour? You should go into stand-up.

        • Te Reo Putake

          Yeah, don’t worry about the facts, Brain Dead, let’s stick with your prejudices instead 🙄

        • Colonial Viper

          Plenty of public sector voters vote National. Even the ones who lost their jobs ironically.

          • TighyRighty

            Got any evidence of that? So when the staffers get fired for not keeping the ministers confidences, what is the PSA going to say?

            • Frank Macskasy

              “Got any evidence of that? So when the staffers get fired for not keeping the ministers confidences, what is the PSA going to say?”

              How about “keep your mouth shut”? Last I heard, this still ain’t a province of Nth Korea.

              • TighyRighty

                Despite all the best efforts of people like yourself. Abhorrence of dissent is a well known lefty trait

                • McFlock

                  I disagree…

                  • Pascal's bookie


                    • McFlock

                      [thinks to self: Bluebottle, who is it that will cave in and post the relevant clip from Life of Brian?]

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      He’s got a point though. Would that the left had such a rich history of protest songs and literature as the right. I suppose it’s because the right has always been the one trying to overturn the current order and why we mock them for idealist airy fairy notions.

                      Why must we always fall back on saying “Love it or leave it” when people criticise our wars. It was shocking the way the left turned on the Dixie Chicks for example. “Shut up and sing”.

                      It’s quite disturbing.

                    • McFlock I will  …

                      The textbook example of most leftist group interactions … 

            • Colonial Viper

              So when the staffers get fired for not keeping the ministers confidences, what is the PSA going to say?

              Is National now pretending that it can run Government without the co-operation of the civil service? They’ve been trying that for a while, and I hear its not going at all well 😈

          • DropDead

            Plenty of public sector employees don’t belong to the PSA.

    • mike e 3.2

      Was it joyce or key who Knifed brash tighty almighty.
      Still haven’t heard your economic miracle that all that study you you’ve been brain washed with on how to fix New Zealands economy with evidence to prove your theory works your just the little lackey that volunteers to stir with cynicsim.
      No solutions
      No brains
      So Nationals solution is to hirer Con sultants at 10x the price to spout their bullshit.

      • TighyRighty 3.2.1

        You make no sense whatsoever, yet demand miracles from me? Even though I don’t have my hand on the tiller of the economy I am expected to somehow have the answer? I have some theories, for the most part they are bing played out and working.

        You on the other are to far gone. You personify the dragging tail of educational under-achievement. Your grammar is so appalling if you ever came for a job with my company, you wouldn’t even get an interview. And your viewpoint, while you are entitled to it, smacks of a rant someone uneducated and unwashed.

        • Draco T Bastard

          I have some theories, for the most part they are bing played out and working.

          Did you notice the increasing poverty, the increasing unemployment, the increasing government debt and the increasing inequality?

          Yeah, those theories are being put in place and for most people they’re not working.

        • taxicab

          hey grammar fascist Tighty Righty there are two ways to spell the word ‘ to or too’ you are the dickhead , sack yourself !! Read your own rant before hitting send .

          • TighyRighty

            Where are my fascist grammatical observations? Noting that the grammar is appealing and indicative of a wider educational problem is hardly fascism. Try some exercising some comprehension you Cumsock. Taxicab? Bet you love the young drunks you can prey on after a night out

            • Colonial Viper

              Taxicab? Bet you love the young drunks you can prey on after a night out

              This says way more about you, than about anyone else…

              • Descendant Of Smith

                As did his response here when I pointed out that he had used the wrong “principle” in an earlier post about teachers and he didn’t pick up on the homophone joke.

                The many bail out the few

                Guess my small town public primary education must have been pretty good.

        • mike e

          So which ones have been played out and which are working.
          You are just a little lackey who has had a free ride on the education system which high income earners like me and my wife have subsidized to the tune of 72%.
          Your a narrow minded twirp who has been brain washed by the chicago school into believing everything about economic rationalism is true in theory.
          But in practice does not work you have never provided one ioata of proof.
          You instead take my comprehension apart instead of coming up with the answers I and other hard working people have paid for in your subsidized education.
          You should give it all back with interest as you have wasted taxpayers money.

          • TighyRighty

            Read yourself. You don’t know shit about me but you can tell who brainwashed me? I came out of the Victoria school of economics. Hardly the right wing bastion of economic freedom. Your whole rant today, and the other comments I have seen from you, make it very hard for me to believe you A) earn much, if any money, let alone enough to be taxed at the top rate and B) duped someone into marrying you, and even if you did, that they are smart enough to earn a decent living.

            • North

              You’re getting Shighty Titghty Righty which says everything about you and no one else.

              Imagine……out of the blue accusing someone you know nothing about of preying on young drunks.

              What’s wrong with you , egg ?

    • BM 3.3

      This, time for a cull.
      You cannot have public servants running across to the opposition and passing sensitive information.
      If Labour aligned public servants can’t be trusted, it’s time to give them the boot.

      • Te Reo Putake 3.3.1

        I think you’ll find Tim Groser is not ‘labour aligned’. But he should still be given the boot, as you suggest.

        • BM

          Hope it was worth it for those civil servants, destroying their careers like that.

          IrishBill: surely you can troll better than this? It’s like your heart’s not even in it any more.

          • Anne

            It’s not a case of his heart not being in it any more. He’s just not very good at it.

      • Just like you can’t have Ministers accessing peoples personal files and releasing them to the media for political purposes?

        Ok, got it.

  4. Colonial Viper 4

    Oh its such a shame to have civil servants who have the country’s best interests at heart, who cannot tolerate incompetent Tory Ministers fucking up NZ’s reputation and decades of good work, be pushed over the line so far that they feel like they have to stand up against a range of nonsensical National initiatives which were never properly considered or thought through in the first place.

    • TighyRighty 4.1

      Public servants need to have the confidence of the ministers in charge of their departments. Disgusting that a minister can’t verbalise their views without some shill looking to make political gain abusing their trusted position. Public servants need to be neutral to be professional. Hilarious that it’s trying to be spun as Grosers fault, when the spin provides the best excuse to continue the public service cull.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1

        Public servants need to have the confidence of the ministers in charge of their departments.

        I’d prefer it if they had the confidence of the people of NZ. If that means pissing off the minister then so be it.

        They are not the ministers slaves.

        EDIT: Actually, everything you’ve written there is a whinge about the minister being held to account.

        • TighyRighty

          No it’s actually a commentary on the lack of public service neutrality. But the careers of the left will never be as stellar as those on the right, that’s why we see the love of working spending other people’s money and the jealously and hatred of those earning their own by the left

          • Colonial Viper

            No it’s actually a commentary on the lack of public service neutrality.

            You mean National stacking positions with their lackeys? The Rebstocks and Griffins of the world?

            • TighyRighty

              Sorry? Sir Michal Cullen to kiwi rail? He’s such a lackey of national.

              • mike e

                tighty almighty its nz post not kiwi rail just shows how out of touch you are with the business community’
                besides you shouldn’t be aloud to mention his name as you got your economics degree off the back of a kornie packet.
                Michael Cullen was the youngest person to get an economics masters degree with honours.
                he’s got brains you haven’t you just like the guy in good morning Vietnam that no one likes

          • McFlock

            I think you need to wipe some flecks of froth from your lips, TR.
            I shudder to think what you’d be like if you were a member of the hate-filled left, rather than the chilled out and mellow righty you are /sarc 

            • TighyRighty

              Thanks for adding the sarc tag. I couldn’t have picked up your inflection without it.

              Frothing at the mouth is typically relegated to union or left aligned protests. Sue Bradford can’t seem to talk normally without frothing at th mouth she’s been involved in so many “progressive” causes

          • Draco T Bastard

            No it’s actually a commentary on the lack of public service neutrality.

            They should be and are neutral in their jobs. Pointing out that a minister is an idiot and is fucking things up is being a good public servant.

            • TighyRighty

              You are absolutely right. Pointing that our would make a good public servant. Running off and telling the ex leader of the opposition doesn’t exactly smack of political neutrality. Unless of course you luuuurve labour like you do, then everyone is acceptable if they can make political gain. What a twisted sense of right and wrong you have.

    • brybry 4.2

      Ministers are leading by example on the trust issue. They ignore the advice from their ministries in favour of external consultants paid to tell them what they want to hear. Why? because as CV mentioned, civil servants have the country’s best interests at heart, and this government clearly does not.

  5. Matthew 5

    Its just a shame that Groser cant see fit to leak details of the TPPA agreement. Now that would really be helpful.

  6. Tracey 6

    So does this mean that once a diplomat always a diplomat and so you must do everything to preserve that particular gravy train for others?

    • Colonial Viper 6.1

      Only if you have complete disrespect for how NZ conducts its foreign business and don’t care how it is represented to foreign governments.

  7. Michael 7

    I’m glad Groser spilled the beans on McCully’s wicked plans. Although I think MFAT is incorrigibly elitist, and does not really represent NZ at all, I acknowledge its expertise, together with the fact that its mere presence in other states has bailed a lot of NZers out of the shit we seem to get into with monotonous regularity. I guess if I was hauled out of bed in the middle of the night to attend to some drunken, shit-faced yob in a foreign slammer, just because he was waving round a kiwi passport, I’d probably be a bit snooty, and de haut en bas, too. As for Groser, anyone with a surname like that just has to be made for the WTO. I hope Key sacks McCully instead, or makes him High Commissioner to some island covered in birdshit in mid-Pacific (or better still, mid-Antarctic).

    • Tracey 7.1

      Increasingly Key must be looking for “positions” for people. I mean the one we will miss most (Lockwood Smith) is getting London, apparently… the others won’t go to a backwater, and will want to be handy to the Queen to accept their knighthoods in person because a home based ceremony won’t be good enough for these “proud kiwis”

  8. Bob 8


    You guys make me laugh what with your tinfoil hat conspiracy theory whackjob articles.

    Keep up the good work.

  9. BillODrees 9

    Groser is very simple to understand,
    Groser has three ambitions in life: he will settle for achieving any one;
    1. To be regarded better than people who are taller than him
    2. To be head of WTO.
    3. To be head of MFAT.

  10. Bob 10

    Bill you ickle weasel.Whatever you think of Grosser he’s achieved more for NZ trade than any previous trade minister.As others have noted you guys are livid he knocked back the Labour endorsement.

    • mike e 10.1

      utter nutta BS BOB just about all trade deals on the table now are a result of
      Phil Goff and labour groser is just toking the glory.

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