Black lives matter Aotearoa version

Written By: - Date published: 9:35 am, June 10th, 2020 - 53 comments
Categories: child discipline, child welfare, Donald Trump, police, racism, Social issues, uncategorized, us politics - Tags:

The Black Lives Matter movement has been on steroids since the murder of George Floyd in the United States.  Over there previously unimaginable things have been occurring.

The Mayor of Washington DC, Muriel Bowser, in as big a middle finger to Donald Trump as you can imagine, has had the street in front of the White House renamed “Black Lives Matter Plaza” and just in case the orange one missed it she had “Black Lives Matter” emblazoned in large yellow lettering on the road.

Elsewhere there is a stampede to either cut Police funding or even more dramatically to disband Police Forces and replace them with community safety organisations as is being proposed in Minneapolis, Floyd’s home town.  From Oliver Milman in the Guardian:

Nine members of Minneapolis city council have vowed to dismantle the city’s police department, which was responsible for the death of George Floyd, and replace it with a new community-based system of public safety.

Jacob Frey, the Minneapolis mayor, demurred when asked if he would abolish the police department – but the nine city council votes will be enough to override Frey’s veto.

Efforts to reform the police have not been sufficient, said Lisa Bender, the Minneapolis city council president.

She said: “Our commitment is to end policing as we know it and to recreate systems of public safety that actually keep us safe.”

And here in Aotearoa New Zealand this week has had had two instances where Government agencies have done the right thing in recognition of the racist elements of what was happening.

The first was the Police discontinuing the Armed Response Teams trial.  From Radio New Zealand:

The controversial police Armed Response Teams have been axed for good, with the Police Commissioner saying they failed to get public support.

The six-month trial in Counties-Manukau, Waikato and Canterbury was fiercely criticised by justice advocates, concerned about a lack of community consultation, and that the armed squads would disproportionately target Māori and Pasifika communities.

The Labour Maori Caucus, and good on them for doing so, had earlier come out against the trial.  From Mark Quinlivan at Newshub:

Labour’s Māori Caucus has voiced its concerns about the general arming of New Zealand police officers.

A six-month trial of the country’s first armed police officers – the Armed Response Teams (ARTs) – was launched in October. Then-Police Commissioner Mike Bush said the teams would focus on any crime that caused “significant risk”.

But Labour Māori Caucus co-chair Willie Jackson said it’s discussed its concerns about the trial with Police Minister Stuart Nash.

“The Labour Māori Caucus made our view very clear that we are totally opposed to the general arming of our police force,” Jackson said.

He said there’s a feeling the ART trial commenced with a lack of consultation – especially with Māori.

Documents obtained by Radio New Zealand’s Checkpoint last week revealed disadvantages to Māori were one of the risks identified by those overlooking the trial.

Jackson said any form of racism is unacceptable in any organisation.

“Continuing the conversation around intolerance and racism is crucial to Aotearoa New Zealand recovery post-COVID-19, and the Labour Māori Caucus will do our part, to make sure that happens,” Jackson said.

And Jacinda Ardern also expressed major reservations about the trial.  From Radio New Zealand:

Ardern said the government did raise concerns with the Commissioner of Police about the [Armed Response Teams] trials at the time.

“They were operational decisions so not something we were consulted on before those trials began, but we did raise concerns.”

Ardern said it was important not to interfere with police operational matters, however, the government did not consider the general arming of police a matter they could not take a view on.

“I’ve always had a very firm view on the general arming of police, I’m totally opposed, always will be. The Police Commissioner himself has also said he shares that view.”

Message received obviously.

The second was the production of a scathing report by the Children’s Commissioner Andrew Becroft into the uplifting of babies from their mothers.  From Isaac Davison at the Herald:

The Office of the Children’s Commissioner, which is an independent Crown entity, based its report on the personal accounts of 13 families of babies which were either at risk of removal or had been removed into state custody.

Children’s Commissioner Andrew Becroft said their stories highlighted “deep systemic issues” in the state care and protection system.

Becroft said today that the best interests of the child were “always the paramount consideration” and were inextricably linked to their mothers’ interest and wellbeing.

“It is vital we hear the voices of mothers within the system,” he said.

“The cries of the Māori mothers in this report, irrespective of whether a child was removed or not, is that the right kind of early support be provided to them.

“They want to be treated with humanity, and to have the long-term wellbeing of their babies put first, by respecting and acknowledging their place within whānau, hapū and iwi rather than a system that strengthens the chains of inter-generational state care.”

In an introduction to the report, he said the personal accounts were backed by statistic analysis in an earlier report produced in January. Among the earlier report’s findings were that Māori children aged between 0 and 3 months were five times more likely to be uplifted than non-Māori.

Becroft also said any recommendations for change would be produced in a later report.

“I have chosen to share this report without recommendations at this stage so the voices can speak powerfully and stand by themselves.

“It will allow time to reflect on and absorb them. The voices themselves suggest areas where change could be considered and, indeed, could begin to take place without the need for specific recommendations now.”

Oranga Tamariki has responded negatively to the report and questioned its methodology and criticised its lack of recommendations.  But Becroft has said why the report has been structured in this way.

The surge of the Black Lives Matter movement with worldwide protests against racism is forcing countries to analyse their history and their practices.  And will hopefully result in change.

53 comments on “Black lives matter Aotearoa version ”

  1. RedLogix 1

    In the meantime it turns out that the idea there is some kind of epidemic of racist white cops murdering blacks may in fact be complete bullshit:

    The findings – published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, or PNAS – are based on an independent database Cesario and his team created that catalogued each police shooting from 2015. The team – led also by co-author David Johnson from University of Maryland – contacted every police department that had a fatal police shooting to get the race, sex and years of experience for every officer involved in each incident. The team also leveraged data from police shooting databases by The Washington Post and The Guardian.

    “We found that the race of the officer doesn’t matter when it comes to predicting whether black or white citizens are shot,"

    I know a bunch of the regulars here are going to hate on this; but there it is …

    Of course black Americans are disproportionately the victims of police deaths, that's undeniable and totally unacceptable; in no manner am I trying to justify or excuse it.

    But did you also know there is another group of Americans who are 50% of the population, but comprise 96% of all police FOIS deaths? What on earth could be the explanation for that?

    • McFlock 1.1

      lol you might want to read their correction:

      “Although we were clear about the quantity we estimated and provide justification for calculating Pr(race|shot, X) in our report (see also 2, 3), we want to correct a sentence in our significance statement that has been quoted by others stating ‘White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers.’ This sentence refers to estimating Pr(shot|race, X). As we estimated Pr(race|shot, X), this sentence should read: ‘As the proportion of White officers in a fatal officer-involved shooting increased, a person fatally shot was not more likely to be of a racial minority.’ This is consistent with our framing of the results in the abstract and main text.

      And, of course, Floyd wasn't shot.

      • RedLogix 1.1.1

        And the significance of the correction is? And why do you find it so funny?

        And, of course, Floyd wasn't shot.

        Well I could be pedantic and ask why then the calls to disarm the police?

        But the obvious answer is that because non-firearm involved shootings are in such low numbers, everyone on all sides are using shootings as a proxy.

        And of course there is this reality:

        The vast majority – between 90% and 95% – of the civilians shot by officers were actively attacking police or other citizens when they were shot. Ninety percent also were armed with a weapon when they were shot. The horrific cases of accidental shootings, like mistaking a cell phone for a gun, are rare, Cesario said.

        Floyd George’s death is obviously different :

        “We hear about the really horrendous and tragic cases of police shootings for a reason: they’re awful cases, they have major implications for police-community relations and so they should get attention,” Cesario said. “But, this ends up skewing perceptions about police shootings and leads people to believe that all fatal shootings are similar to the ones we hear about. That’s just not the case.”

        • McFlock 1.1.1.1

          The correction isn't funny. You're funny.

          Every time you give an "obvious" answer or some other assumption you treat as it it's self-evident, it simply illustrates your own conceptual constraints.

          Why disarm police if fatal shootings are fine? Because there are non-fatal shootings, and the mere presence of a weapon changes the entire dynamic of every interaction they have.

          Why have a problem if 90% of people shot were attacking police? Because of the other 10%, and whether lethal force was a resonable response to the alleged attack (how many "attacks" were the equivalent of a 75-year-old's "tripped and fell"?).

          And lastly, if the majority of the police are white and the police have a collective culture of "mutual support above all else" (including above law enforcement), what does the ethnicity of the specific shooter have to do with any damned thing whatsoever?

          • RedLogix 1.1.1.1.1

            Because the data conclusive shows that the probability of being shot is directly and highly correlated with the probability that you are involved in a violent crime.

            I mean why else would men who are only 50% of the population be 96% of the police shooting victims? No-one would dream of claiming this was because of some perverse kind of 'systemic sexism'. There is an obvious reason why this is, and it's because males are overwhelmingly involved in violent crime.

            • McFlock 1.1.1.1.1.1

              How is anything you wrote relevant to my comment?

              I mean, the gender thing was an interesting dodge, but even if the "no-one would dream" were true, it's not like there's a centuries-long demonstrated pattern of misandrist bias in US policing, is there.

              • RedLogix

                Indeed the USA has a history of gross racism, (as does in fact every other nation of earth) but being Americans they hold a deep seated belief that if something is worth doing, it's worth over-doing. So yes there was always a case to be answered.

                And at every step in this extended discussion I've repeatedly stated that racism exists, there are good evolutionary and biological reasons why, but complex societies find ways to overlay it with more sophisticated mechanisms of social reciprocity, loyalty and cohesion.

                So no surprise there is history. But equally it's useful to remember that it's not like nothing has happened in the USA since the 1600's. That social progress is real, and that the extremist left wing doctrine of original white racist sin that can never be expunged is probably a really bad idea.

                This makes an interesting argument around Jamaican immigrant families in the USA. Exactly the same skin colour as black Americans, but completely different outcomes.

                • McFlock

                  The only argument you seem to be interested in is why people of colour deserve to be killed some of the time, never interested in why innocent ones get murdered.

                  • RedLogix

                    never interested in why innocent ones get murdered.

                    You mean like this?

                    Would you draw from this tragedy that there is an epidemic of black cops killing whites in the USA? Nah. It was a plain case of an overanxious cop, reacting recklessly to an imagined threat.

                    It would be very weird indeed if there were no incompetent, overtly racist, volatile unstable police who should not be in the job. Get rid of them, prosecute and convict. Reform and align the incentives so the system gets better at doing this, modernise and standardise training, build professionalism and attract the very best people you can afford to the job.

                    I've made this case several times now, it is the obvious and direct way to reduce the number of innocent lives lost.

                    • McFlock

                      The real research that would be interesting is how many of these bad cops are fired and charged, analysing by ethnicity of the victim and whether it was caught on camera.

                      Because the official repercussions seem to be based on those two factors.

                      And the other 90% of cops aren't doing their jobs.

                      But keep looking for excuses for them.

                    • RedLogix

                      And the other 90% of cops aren't doing their jobs.

                      Every workplace has this problem to some degree, it's never as straightforward getting rid of dodgy colleagues as you imply.

                      But if you want a better outcome, look to the incentives. I've already made three suggestions on this.

                      Why do I get the feeling you don't want a better outcome, you just don't want any cops. And you remain silent on what the would really mean for the vulnerable and the minorities in our societies. They are the ones who depend on the police the most.

                    • solkta

                      @RL

                      How about giving it a rest. You've crapped all over this post before anybody else has even had a chance to say something constructive.

                    • Incognito []

                      The Post went up @ 9:35 AM and RL posted the first comment @ 2:07 PM, i.e. about four and half hours later.

                      If you disagree with a comment, you say so and why. Give your counter argument, defend it, find some middle ground, or agree to disagree. Or call the Moderators or say nothing.

                      This is how it works here 🙂

                    • RedLogix

                      @solkta

                      The argument I have brought is substantive, highly pertinent and backed with references. I fully realise it contradicts the dominant and fashionable left wing narrative at the moment, and I've endeavoured to be respectful of that. But the purpose of The Standard was never to be an echo chamber and dissenting views have always, every day, every post been the norm.

                      There was nothing stopping you or anyone else saying anything you pleased here, or lower down. The machine that runs The Standard is very accommodating and there is no upper limit on the number of comments permitted under a post. (Well not that I’ve ever seen us reach.)

          • RedLogix 1.1.1.1.2

            Because of the other 10%, and whether lethal force was a resonable response to the alleged attack

            No-one is saying there are no dangerously racist cops, or just plain incompetent, volatile or angry cops who shouldn't be in the job. As with every trade or profession there are bad people who need to be weeded out.

            But that as you say isn't as easy as it sounds, there is a culture of mutual support in the police, and given the unique pressures and risks of the job this will is hard to change.

            But one of the big problems the US has is that the incentives are all misaligned. I guarantee you there would be a LOT more responsiveness to these kinds of tragedies if any monetary compensation came out of the police retirement funds, or individual police had to carry personal insurance and after one or two adverse findings their policy became unaffordable.

            Or dare I say it, the police unions look like a big part of the problem, maybe if they had to carry the fiscal consequences they'd be far less keen on protecting cops who shouldn't be in the job.

            • McFlock 1.1.1.1.2.1

              So there are bad cops and a culture of protecting bad cops. The system is broken. Stop defending it, start thinking up ways to replace it.

              • RedLogix

                You are the one demanding police be replaced, the obligation lies with you to tell us what with. I'm not demanding details, just a non-vague outline will do, so that we have something to concrete to scrutinise and work with.

                Because I'm assuming you'd be keen to see the same de-policing effort rolled out everywhere.

                • McFlock

                  God you love to assume, don't you.

                  Eerywhere the current system is borken.
                  And not the same – let the communities choose a more appropriate replacement from any in their imagination or human history prior to thr 1820s.

              • Wayne

                Surely you mean improve the system. Abolishing the police is a only slogan. Is there a single large scale society that does not have police?

                Are the police in the US likely to become similar to the NZ police. Probably not. The US has way more gun violence that is deeply rooted in their culture.

                Anyway isn't this whole item supposed to be about NZ police?

                The NZ Police have very good leadership, and generally a very good internal culture. Although they have not always had.

                There are eight Assistant Commissioners at present (I think) and five Deputy Commissioners. None of the Deputy Commissioners are women. Three of the eight Assistant Commissioners are women, with two being in the uniform branch. The two women (I know one of them thought my prior work) need to be rapidly promoted to Deputy Commissioner as soon as there are openings. The government can directly influence this.

                I appreciate that top command its only an aspect of police culture, but it is an important aspect of the culture. A number of the senior leadership, including the new Commissioner, embody a new style of police leadership. This needs to be spread more widely.

                Promotions to Assistant Commissioner are primarily an internal responsibility with limited/no ministerial oversight. However promotions to Deputy Commissioner will have some ministerial involvement. That means the Police Minister can ensure the expectations of government can be met be who gets promoted to Deputy Commissioner.

                • McFlock

                  "Improve" suggests taking a broken department and making it better. At least one municipality is closing the dapertment down and redesigning a replacement.

                  As for how the enforcement of laws is conducted, maybe that will involve a standing force of fulltime personnel, maybe not. Either way, at least one department is slated to be abolished.

                  As for NZ, I think the armed response teams were a step towards the current US policing debacle. And we have also had a trend towards police as substitutes for addressing social ills like poverty, drugs, and access to mental healthcare.

                  The way I see it, we are closer to the scylla of paramilitary policing than the charybdis of local mobs and warlords. Probably best to steer away from the closer threat, even if we don't know exactly how far away the other one is.

        • Tricledrown 1.1.1.2

          I would not believe police produced figures especially those who turn off body cameras

    • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2

      "may in fact be complete bullshit"

      Floyd’s family and friends might derive some 'comfort' from the apparent knowledge that, if Floyd had been killed by a police bullet, then the shooter’s skin colour would not have been a factor. But I doubt it.

      Please note that the paper you cite has accrued correspondence, and a correction (thank-you McFlock).

      Young unarmed nonsuicidal male victims of fatal use of force are 13 times more likely to be Black than White
      https://www.pnas.org/content/117/3/1263

      Making inferences about racial disparities in police violence
      "Despite the value of this much-needed research, its approach is mathematically incapable of supporting its central claims."
      https://www.pnas.org/content/117/3/1261

      • RedLogix 1.2.1

        I first read all the corrections, and their replies, and concluded they did not materially change the study's conclusions.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.1.1

          I concluded otherwise – once again we must agree to disagree.

          I hope we can agree that “Black Lives Matter” is a just cause.

          • RedLogix 1.2.1.1.1

            I concluded otherwise

            On what basis? Just making assertions without argument or reference doesn't count for much.

            Sure, there has been one challenge but it has been answered:

            However, as there is debate over which proxy is most appropriate, we also conduct analyses where we account for racial differences in exposure by controlling for crime rates, population rates, or both simultaneously.

            That is, we test whether a person fatally shot is more likely to be Black or Hispanic than White if crime rates in a county were equal, if population rates in a county were equal, or if both were equal. Thus the claim that we somehow failed to account for encounters or population differences is unequivocally incorrect.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.1.1.1.1

              I concluded otherwise on the basis of the challenges to Johnson et al (2019).

              Johnson et al. (and you) believe that the challenges do not invalidate their conclusions – colour me surprised!

              You assert that you are right and I am wrong. I don't agree with your view, but will defend to the death your right to state it.

              I've decided that we must agree to disagree on this matter. What you decide is entirely up to you, but I still hope we can agree that “Black Lives Matter” is a just cause.

              • RedLogix

                The letter complained that in order to usefully calculate probability of any given race being killed had to be 'the number of deaths of that race' compared to a base rate of 'exposure to police for that race'.

                The numerator, the first number is measured directly by the number of deaths, but the denominator can only be inferred via some proxy, in other words some other known data set that strongly correlates to police exposure.

                There are two obvious candidates as proxies, one is the population of an ethnicity in a given county (obviously if no people of a given group are in a given area, then you'd expect no deaths for them either), the other is rates of violent crime (again crime rates must reasonably correlate to police callouts rates).

                There is room for some debate on which is the best proxy to use, population or crime rate. It's a fair question to which the answer was in essence … we used both and found it makes no significant difference to the conclusion. No bias.

                It's all dressed up in technical jargon and a bit of math, but that's what it boils down to.

                • McFlock

                  Dude, an extended blab about one document will not make someone suddenly agree about the multiple documents they mentioned when they withdrew from the discussion.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  I’m back! Johnson et al. (2019) naturally believed their conclusions to be correct; most scientists do, at the time of publishing. And (I'm speculating here) you believe their conclusions are correct because they seem compatible with your worldview.

                  The conclusions of Johnson et al. may be completely correct, partly correct/incorrect, or completely incorrect. I'm happy to acknowledge that their conclusions may be correct; are you able to accept the possibility that they may be incorrect? Is there room for that possibility in your worldview?

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Most_Published_Research_Findings_Are_False

                  The Johnson et al. (2019) paper has already been cited by several others (excluding correspondence and corrections) – the authors' peers have a range of views regarding their conclusions. One thing's for sure – if you're 'stopped' by random cops in the U.S., it particularly sucks to be black. And it's not much 'fun' being a police officer either.

                  Are Police Racially Biased in the Decision to Shoot?
                  "Consequently, depending on data, measures, and methods, studies draw contradictory conclusions, ranging from significant differences in the likelihood and speed of shooting Black civilians compared to other civilians (Mekawi and Bresin, 2015) to no racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings of civilians (Johnson et al., 2019). In short, even when relatively good data are available, allowing social scientists to observe and describe racial patterns in policing, scholarly consensus on whether police discriminate by race of civilian when using lethal force, let alone nonlethal force, remains elusive."

                  Does Race Matter for Police Use of Force? Evidence from 911 Calls
                  "Consequently, difference-in-differences estimates from individual officer fixed effect models indicate black (Hispanic) civilians are 30 – 60 (75 – 120) percent more likely to experience any use of force, and five times as likely to experience gun use of force, compared to if white officers scaled up force similarly to minority officers. These findings highlight race as an important determinant of police use of force, including and especially lethal force."
                  https://www.nber.org/papers/w26774

                  Considering violence against police by citizen race/ethnicity to contextualize representation in officer-involved shootings
                  "Racial/ethnic over-representation (or the lack thereof) in officer-involved shootings appears to be a function of the specific benchmark for comparison as well as the outcome being examined. Studies focusing exclusively on fatalities represent an incomplete and non-random sample of all officer-involved shooting incidents. Data limitations may omit factors, such as place or departmental policies, that are confounding the relationship between race/ethnicity and fatal police-citizen violence."
                  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047235219304398

                  Using allegations to understand selection bias in organizations: Misconduct in the Chicago Police Department
                  "I highlight how status characteristics such as race and gender may bias the creation of archival data. For example, black officers received allegations at similar rates to white officers, but were more likely to have them sustained, and allegations made by black complainants were less likely to be sustained than those made by white complainants—even when including extensive sets of control variables. These findings indicate that accounting for allegations may be a fruitful methodological avenue to better understand the optimal use of archival behavioral field data for research on ethics and misconduct."
                  http://lbsresearch.london.edu/1393/

                  • RedLogix

                    Is there room for that possibility in your worldview?

                    Of course, there is nothing absolute about one study. But your point above cuts both ways.

                    Yes it sucks to be black in the USA. That's what I have been saying all along, it pretty much sucks to be any minority anywhere. It's just a question of degree.

                    My worldview looks like this; over millenia we have gradually become better and better at reducing that suckiness, we have moved from a purely genetic loyalty, one based on biological characteristics none of us can control, to more sophisticated, higher order loyalties based on behaviour, reciprocity and values that are the outcome of personal choices and responsibilities.

                    When we frame the debate in terms of race we revert everything back to skin colour and genetics. That's the entirely the wrong direction to be going in.

                    There are other factors at work here, beyond skin colour, that are feeding into black disadvantage in the USA, but talking about them on the left is a taboo at present.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      People of colour can't (or shouldn't need to) 'lose' their skin colour (genetics, etc.), nor their history, to achieve equitable outcomes, so how best (now, and in the future) to decrease the current disadvantages impacting on people of colour in white-dominated societies?

                      A previous Labour-led government introduced a "Closing the Gaps" policy, later rebranded as "reducing inequalities". Do you think that a "Closing the Gaps" policy would be more successful and politically palatable in NZ now, is there a better framing/approach for closing those very real gaps, or should 'we' just accept the (growing) gaps?

                      "Over the term of the 1999–2008 Labour Government, social statistics for Maori and Pacific Islanders did generally improve; however, the statistics for Pakeha New Zealanders showed a greater improvement, resulting in the 'gaps' actually increasing. Closing the Gaps failed to reduce socio-economic inequalities between Māori and non-Māori and did not resolve structural inequalities that socio-economically excluded Māori from mainstream society."
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_the_Gaps

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hriunIvgEto

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWw5mKSQnZ4

    • weka 2.1

      I put up a Notices and Features post the other day about the Greens' part in this and didn't mention Labour. Authors have their own reasons for what they write.

  2. NZ under lockdown had many attributes of a police state. We are lucky that it was only temporary. Let's see..

    The organic emergence of checkpoints

    Police 0800 number for narking on your neighbours

    Prevention of mass gatherings & churches

    Nation gripped by fear and groupthink, and general vilification of dissent

    New Zealand white settler culture has a rather dubious record on policing, yes we could do worse, we could also be aware of recent history and do a lot better

    • McFlock 3.1

      Yes, the test of the institutions of democracy is for it to survive disasters like pandemics that do sometimes require dictatorial powers. The next hurdle after returning to democratic freedoms is for future governments to resist going into full emergency mode for the power to do things not emergency-related.

      • RedLogix 3.1.1

        that do sometimes require dictatorial powers.

        Nah … you don't want any police to enforce them remember?

        And while the ChCh massacre was in progress, should we have sent in squad of social workers armed with headlamps and clip board?

        • McFlock 3.1.1.1

          lol obviously you think there were no dictators before there were police forces.

          • RedLogix 3.1.1.1.1

            That's odd, do you really think there were no coercive forces of any kind before the police?

            • McFlock 3.1.1.1.1.1

              that do sometimes require dictatorial powers.

              Nah … you don't want any police to enforce them remember?

              cf:

              do you really think there were no coercive forces of any kind before the police?

              Try to get your patronising stupidity straight, there's a dear. Either dictatorial powers require police, or there can be coercive actors other than police to enforce dictatorial powers.

              • David Mac

                I think it's all to do with how it's pitched.

                Are we seduced into joining this huge team or does the draconian plea for compliance meet push back?

                So far, I don't regret joining the team.

  3. David Mac 4

    We're on a different footing here in NZ. Black Americans live with a history of being taken somewhere against their will. Maori live with their somewhere being taken against their will.

    I think solutions look similar, we need an accessible pathway for everyone to feel good about themselves and their place amongst others.

  4. stunned mullet 5

    Hopefully we don't go the full Orwell….

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

  5. common sense 6

    Black lives matter is a racist movement, have others not seen "whites" being told to kneel and renounce their existence as being detrimental to society

    To move forward requires enough intelligence to recognise that most people arent actually racist and the ones that are ,are normally full of hate in all directions not just racisim .

    Inequality is the largest producer of hate , A well educated black man and a well educated white man that had nurture from their upbringing will more than likely find common ground

    We have a long road in front of us in terms of equality but as long as we hold an intention of progress we will slowly legislate and move in the right direction

    In regards to the comments towards the police , you have drunk yourself retarded on the kool aid . There are some very bad people with very bad intentions in this world , if they have greater force available than society in terms of offense/ defense the we the collective are in big trouble .

    I have personally seen the police do unethical things with no accountability and have been frustrated myself, would i want to live in a world without a police force to keep peace in the community , HELL NO .

    If people still had the balls to settle a dispute with a punchup then i would feel at ease but we live in mentally ill society of people who dont know how to conduct themselves proportionately

    My thoughts on where blm issues lie is that it is discrete racisim , I have watched videos from the RIOTS of innocent people being beaten senseless that i wish i could unwatch. If a black man (or any man) comes to me and asks me to kneel , i would never bend a knee. If any person of any colour says hello brother i ask only for the mutual respect that i offer you then i will reply hello brother how is your day and how may we be of service to each other

    I commend any person that strives for equality , peaceful protests i hold in high regard. There are times when force can be justified in the interests of the collective but i have seen zero justification for the force used towards innocent people during the RIOTS , it leaves a fowl taste in my mouth. If the protesters were being gunned down behaving peacefully then i would say use force you have no choice

    • WeTheBleeple 6.1

      "the balls to settle a dispute with a punch up"

      And in the same paragraph

      "don't know how to conduct themselves proportionately"

      Meanwhile cherry picking instances of individuals acting out and playing the victim card like you personally have been slighted.

      Change your name, it makes no sense.

      • common sense 6.1.1

        Yes a punchup.. A one on one dispute.. not a pack beating. No big deal really if both consent.. maybe my perception is different i happily concede to that. i see two consenting adults throwing a few punches as no big deal. It is proportionate in my eyes. if one party dosnt consent then it should not happen.. Just like innocent people shouldnt be beaten senseless ..

        Im not cherry picking. like i said i fully endorse any and all peaceful movements .

        I havnt and never will be a victim.. i hold myself accountable for all my decisions

        Maybe my name does make sense but you are so blinded by your emotions that it has dsimantled your logic

    • roblogic 6.2

      Is it opposite day today? BLM is a mass movement against racism and police brutality, you have been watching too much Fox or OANN

      • common sense 6.2.1

        i watch neither they are propoganda so is cnn and msnbc.. All of the above are simply collective hypnosis and should be illegal.. the truth is available if one puts the time into research..

        Their are many cellphone videos floating around that are long enough to provide context. not just a sound bite

        Some shouldnt be watched , they are harmful to the spirit

        Its not opposite day of course black lives matter. all lives matter.. police brutality is non discriminate to any race but i also cant stand police brutality

        • roblogic 6.2.1.1

          maybe expand your "research" beyond watching cellphone clips, and read something about the history of the USA

          • common sense 6.2.1.1.1

            And your knowledge comes from where?

            Do you really think floyd was about racisim. is face value all that you see?

            I see a man killed another man. i stand by my statement inequality is the problem.

            all races in poverty are struggling.. please show me evidence of a billionaire or millionaire dieing the same way..

            My research is varied and broad .. perhaps most history is bullshit . he who pens history decides history.

  6. WeTheBleeple 7

    I'd love to know the nature of NZ Police training. This article, which is about US police methods, is extremely revealing. Some of the training is like a page out of A Clockwork Orange:

    https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

    Having been in our judicial system I have met many Maori who have graduated from State care to State Prisons. They share harrowing tales of abuse, neglect, assault and hopelessness.

    We can and must do better. Any move toward an American model should be met with utmost resistance.

    Racism is deeply ingrained in many NZ'ers. Anyone who can't say Black Lives Matter and spends most of the day arguing that there isn't a problem – is part of the problem.

    A pathetic weaseling out of responsibility. Racism is everyone's problem, and everyone involved needs to check their shit.

  7. Corey Humm 8

    Demilitarize the us cops, give them proper funding so they can hire more officers and provide mental health support and actually do proper vetting, modernize and diversify the force, reform the complaints procedure, compulsory body cams , yes to all.

    Abolish or defund the police? No way. Hell American police forces are so broke they often drive bald tyres , don't have any mental health care , can't afford to investigate or do psych evaluations and their officers are paid and trained so badly most only take the badge to help them become security guards defunding them would make everything so much worse.

    The left in NZ have made huge progress with the police, many officers are contemplating voting Labour and kiwis overwhelmingly trust them, so you won't get much support in wanting to abolish the police, not in in NZ or USA or anywhere, protesters and anarchists,woke and libertarians might wanna blame the police and not the elected officials who create the rules and control the system but it'll make life in poor areas absolutely apocalyptic if gangs and mob rule just take over, I grew up in a mixed race family in one of the poorest electorates in NZ and have experienced first hand the classism and discrimination of the police but I think the force has gotten better I think we need reform for the complaints process and numerous other things but abolishing them is mental.

    I'd never do the job and witness the things and mental scars they do, NZ cops went into buildings falling down in the quakes to save people, will the woke or the libertarians or anarchists? Yeah Na.

    If we abolish the cops what are going to do in the next march 15 ? Call the greens or the libertarians and have them tweet mean hash tags till the terrorists feel bad?

    Reform, modernize and educate but the police have a part to play in society.

    • I Feel Love 8.1

      "Defund the police" means many things, instead of sending armed cops to evict someone because they're a week late with the rent (regular occurance in Virginia USA) they instead create better laws to protect landlord and tenant. For the last few decades the police are being asked more and more to become social workers, mental health workers, bouncers, school security, etc etc…

      &espousing the BLM movement is racist screams "white privilege", no one is forcing anyone to kneel. White paranoia, will that ever go away? (for NS).

      • common sense 8.1.1

        racisim is simply division , weather one elevates or surpreses… racisim ,they are one and the same

        ."white privilege " is racist ..

        my bloodline is so diluted i would not have any idea as to which race to identify or label myself . its just too much of a mixed bag

        in my mind racist people see racisim . people see people. and intellect sees the true problem

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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • On Lee’s watch, Economic Development seems to be stuck on scoring points from promoting sporting e...
    Buzz from the Beehive A few days ago, Point of Order suggested the media must be musing “on why Melissa is mute”. Our article reported that people working in the beleaguered media industry have cause to yearn for a minister as busy as Melissa Lee’s ministerial colleagues and we drew ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand has never been closed for business
    1. What was The Curse of Jim Bolger?a. Winston Peters b. Soon after shaking his hand, world leaders would mysteriously lose office or shuffle off this mortal coilc. Could never shake off the Mother of All Budgetsd. Dandruff2. True or false? The Chairman of a Kiwi export business has asked the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • Stop the panic – we’ve been here before
    Jack Vowles writes – New Zealand is said to be suffering from ‘serious populist discontent’. An IPSOS MORI survey has reported that we have an increasing preference for strong leaders, think that the economy is rigged toward the rich and powerful, and political elites are ignoring ‘hard-working people’.  ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago

  • Minister welcomes hydrogen milestone
    Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    9 hours ago
  • Urgent changes to system through first RMA Amendment Bill
    The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago
  • Overseas decommissioning models considered
    Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago
  • Release of North Island Severe Weather Event Inquiry
    Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • Justice Minister to attend Human Rights Council
    Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order.  “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Patterson reopens world’s largest wool scouring facility
    Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Speech to the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective Summit, 18 April 2024
    Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing  At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin    Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho    Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today.    I am delighted ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government to introduce revised Three Strikes law
    The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New diplomatic appointments
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions.   “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says.    “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Humanitarian support for Ethiopia and Somalia
    New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today.   “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Arts Minister congratulates Mataaho Collective
    Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale.  “It is good ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Supporting better financial outcomes for Kiwis
    The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Trade relationship with China remains strong
    “China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says.   Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • PM’s South East Asia mission does the business
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • $41m to support clean energy in South East Asia
    New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister releases Fast-track stakeholder list
    The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Judicial appointments announced
    Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Education Minister heads to major teaching summit in Singapore
    Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa.  The summit is co-hosted ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Value of stopbank project proven during cyclone
    A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Anzac commemorations, Türkiye relationship focus of visit
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul.    “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Minister to Europe for OECD meeting, Anzac Day
    Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Comprehensive Partnership the goal for NZ and the Philippines
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr.  The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government commits $20m to Westport flood protection
    The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Taupō takes pole position
    The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Cost of living support for low-income homeowners
    Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners.  “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government backing mussel spat project
    The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government focused on getting people into work
    Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Clean energy key driver to reducing emissions
    The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Earthquake-prone buildings review brought forward
    The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Thailand and NZ to agree to Strategic Partnership
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government consults on extending coastal permits for ports
    RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Inflation coming down, but more work to do
    Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • School attendance restored as a priority in health advice
    Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Unnecessary bureaucracy cut in oceans sector
    Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Patterson promoting NZ’s wool sector at International Congress
    Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector.    "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Removing red tape to help early learners thrive
    The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • RMA changes to cut coal mining consent red tape
    Changes to the Resource Management Act will align consenting for coal mining to other forms of mining to reduce barriers that are holding back economic development, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The inconsistent treatment of coal mining compared with other extractive activities is burdensome red tape that fails to acknowledge ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • McClay reaffirms strong NZ-China trade relationship
    Trade, Agriculture and Forestry Minister Todd McClay has concluded productive discussions with ministerial counterparts in Beijing today, in support of the New Zealand-China trade and economic relationship. “My meeting with Commerce Minister Wang Wentao reaffirmed the complementary nature of the bilateral trade relationship, with our Free Trade Agreement at its ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister Luxon acknowledges legacy of Singapore Prime Minister Lee
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today paid tribute to Singapore’s outgoing Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong.   Meeting in Singapore today immediately before Prime Minister Lee announced he was stepping down, Prime Minister Luxon warmly acknowledged his counterpart’s almost twenty years as leader, and the enduring legacy he has left for Singapore and South East ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • PMs Luxon and Lee deepen Singapore-NZ ties
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. While in Singapore as part of his visit to South East Asia this week, Prime Minister Luxon also met with Singapore President Tharman Shanmugaratnam and will meet with Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong.  During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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