Border Force fiasco – how would NZ respond?

Written By: - Date published: 8:02 am, August 29th, 2015 - 128 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, activism, australian politics, racism - Tags: , ,

Yesterday Melbourne stood up for human rights:

Controversial Australian Border Force visa checks, Operation Fortitude cancelled

A major policing operation planned for Melbourne’s CBD this weekend has been cancelled after a backlash over plans to include Australian Border Force (ABF) officials in the crackdown.

Victoria Police issued a press release saying Operation Fortitude had been cancelled this afternoon.

Earlier, the ABF had said it would be checking people’s visas on the streets of the city centre as part of the operation, which also involved Victoria Police and other agencies.

The original announcement quoted ABF regional commander for Victoria and Tasmania Don Smith as saying officers would be positioned at various locations around the city and would speak “with any individual we cross paths with”.

The ABF then issued another statement saying: “To be clear, the ABF does not and will not stop people at random in the streets … the ABF does not target of the basis of race, religion, or ethnicity”.

More details were expected to be released in a press conference at 2:00pm, but the event was cancelled after demonstrators began assembling outside Melbourne’s Flinders Street Station to protest against the operation.

The statement about the operation’s cancellation was then issued. …

Other coverage:

An operation involving the Australian Border Force that was to target potential visa fraudsters in the heart of Melbourne has been cancelled following a public backlash.

The Abbott government is under pressure to explain why the police-led operation including the ABF involved stopping people for visa checks – a measure independent Tasmanian MP Andrew Wilkie compared to East Germany’s Stasi.

https://twitter.com/acidic/status/637207950956728320

Well done to the people of Melbourne. It’s inspiring to read of people standing up en masse to oppose the abuse of state power. But I must admit that on this occasion I am also left with a slightly uneasy feeling. Would have done it in NZ? In the same position, would we stand up? Given what we let the Key government get away with, I fear that we would not.

128 comments on “Border Force fiasco – how would NZ respond? ”

  1. One Anonymous Bloke 1

    One third of the protesters are just the sort of rent-a-crowd mob who oppose any kind of Police state, and the rest are misinformed.

    • Descendant Of Sssmith 1.1

      I would have thought we should all oppose any kind of police state or do you think that there is some sort of benevolent police state

    • Colonial Viper 1.2

      One third of the protesters are just the sort of rent-a-crowd mob who oppose any kind of Police state, and the rest are misinformed.

      Simply brilliant ha!

  2. Tinfoilhat 2

    Perhaps if we look back to some of the comments on this site during the xenophobic bashing during the release of information regarding house purchases by those with ‘Chinese sounding’ names we might get an idea of how the NZ public might react ?

  3. JanM 3

    I think that would be a step too far, as many people would imagine it impacting on them personally, unlike many of this lot’s nastier policies which are happening to ‘them’, i.e the poor and dispossessed

  4. adam 4

    To answer the question “Would have done it in NZ? In the same position, would we stand up?”

    If we look to the past, especially over water – we rolled. The anti democratic practices in Canterbury – we rolled.

    On the good news front – Ireland.

    https://www.facebook.com/WorkersSolidarityMovement/posts/1201412869884524:0

  5. RedLogix 5

    Protest scheduled for next weekend is targeted to shut down the ‘Stasi’ police state passport checking operations at all Australian airports and borders.

    • dukeofurl 5.1

      Whats police state about that ?
      Passports are what is required for international travel, not domestic.

      • RedLogix 5.1.1

        And so are visas. More especially while a passport and visa is required to enter a country, a visa is what determines the terms and conditions of your stay.

        I guess I’m asking the question – if we accept that it’s is ok to check for these things at the border – what is fundamentally different about checking for them inside the country?

        • freedom 5.1.1.1

          if you have to ask that question, chances are you won’t understand the answer

          • RedLogix 5.1.1.1.1

            Go on – give it a go.

            • freedom 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Sorry Red, not going to play this game. 🙂
              but I will borrow from some words of others.

              ‘First they came for the over-stayers, and I did not speak out—
              Because I was not an over-stayer.

              Then they came for the unemployed, and I did not speak out—
              Because I was not unemployed.

              Then they came for the low wage workers and I did not speak out—
              Because I was not a low wage worker.

              Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.’

              • RedLogix

                OK fair enough. You obviously have strong enough feelings and ideas on this to make a comment, but now you don’t want to back yourself.

                Because logically if you don’t think a nation-state should have the authority to determine and enforce it’s border control regulations – specifically it’s visa terms – then really you should just say so.

                Or if you DO think it’s reasonable for a nation to impose visa’s – but you don’t like the way they were going to go about enforcing them in Melbourne – then I can’t see what is so hard about saying that either. I’d likely agree with you.

                Or is there something else I’ve missed?

                • weka

                  how about a link explaining what the protest is about?

                • I think the key is this

                  “The ABF then issued another statement saying: “To be clear, the ABF does not and will not stop people at random in the streets … the ABF does not target of the basis of race, religion, or ethnicity”.”

                  which is untrue.

                  Border checking is more loved by the authorities because then you can sort them at the border based on what??? race, religion and ethnicity. Much harder when inside the borders – but the principles are the same – look for those different looking/sounding ones and just ‘check’ their documentation. This practice has a long history and it never works well for those inside the tent or outside it imo.

                  • RedLogix

                    Border checking is easier because the numbers are far smaller and you can afford the resources to just process everyone regardless.

                    Once inside the country visa control is much harder because of the sheer numbers involved.

                    As it happens I’m heading into Melbourne this afternoon. I’m here on a SCV444 visa category like many other kiwis. If I was stopped and asked for evidence of this the chances are I wouldn’t be carrying my passport, so this would be an administrative challenge right there.

                    And in nations like Aus and NZ we certainly aren’t accustomed to carrying documents around all the time, and being challenged to produce them by officials. I do understand the connotations and I am aware of how I would likely feel in the not neglible chance it were to happen to me.

                    On the other hand from it’s own data the ABF damn well knows it’s got a significant overstayer (visa fraud) problem in Melbourne. Are we arguing they should just turn a blind eye and not enforce them because it’s ‘too hard’?

                    In which case why bother issuing visas in the first place? Why bother with passports? What is the justification for borders at all?

                    • weka

                      No, Red. People are arguing that this particular operation was stupid and racist (and it’s been made plain why they think that). YOU are the one trying to make the argument about border protection in general. Why not say what you mean and make your case?

                    • “What is the justification for borders at all?”

                      I cannot see any justification personally – the reason they are enforced is to ensure the resources of an area are available for the elite and when that stops working the elite change the borders. Of course island nations and so on have physical boundaries that are borders. Indigenous peoples have seen this in action all over the place since year dot.

                    • weka

                      and yet most cultures for human history have devised ways of allocating how resources can be used by geography. This makes sense to me, especially if we look at the issue from an ecological point of view. There are only so many humans that can live on an area of land sustainably. Beyond that is either species overshoot and collapse, and/or ecology collapse.

                    • RedLogix

                      @weka

                      What is racist about checking visas?

                      And if you insist it is racist to check them on the street, then why is it NOT racist to check them at the border? What is the difference?

                      @marty

                      Which is a fair answer. I really don’t mind you making that case.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      What is racist about checking visas?

                      You should ask poor and working class Blacks in the USA what’s racist about being stopped by police and having their car searched or persons frisked.

                      Police have a right to ensure people aren’t carrying weapons or contraband, right? Nothing racist with that…

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I cannot see any justification personally – the reason they are enforced is to ensure the resources of an area are available for the elite and when that stops working the elite change the borders.

                      Wrong. Borders are enforced because governments actually realise that a limited amount of land has limited resources and thus can only support a limited number of people.

                      Then there’s the cultural chaos that happens when a local population become the minority by an immigrant population (I’m Māori can tell you about that).

                      Then there’s the chaos that happens when a population expands faster than the infrastructure can be expanded to support them. Result is not enough food, declining housing and social tension often leading to violence.

                      We don’t have free movement of people because it doesn’t friggen work thus we have borders and we control them.

                    • RedLogix

                      @CV

                      Police have a right to ensure people aren’t carrying weapons or contraband, right?

                      Well that is part of their job description. If you think they should stop doing these things, then make a case.

                      But otherwise the best way to stop racist targeting is for the police to simply stop and search everyone.

                    • weka

                      “What is racist about checking visas?”

                      I haven’t said that checking visas is racist, please stop making shit up. Then, tell us how the police in Melbourne were going to check visas in a way that wasn’t racist. I’m really curious to know that.

                      Then read what CV said, because he addresses the actual point, which is that the state carries out policy in racist ways.

                      I’m gobsmacked that that has to be spelt out tbh.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Well that is part of their job description. If you think they should stop doing these things, then make a case.

                      But otherwise the best way to stop racist targeting is for the police to simply stop and search everyone.

                      Why should I have to make a case for the protection of universal civil liberties?

                      And do you really think if everyone’s civil liberties are infringed upon equally by the authorities, its all OK?

                      RL, that’s not the way it EVER happens.

                      How often do you think the cops in the US pull over an old Taurus driven by a black man, compared to a new Mercedes driven by a white guy in a suit.

                      How often do US police shoot a white person running from them compared to a black person running from them?

                      Running is a sign of guilt, right?

                    • weka

                      “But otherwise the best way to stop racist targeting is for the police to simply stop and search everyone.”

                      Would you prefer the police to have more funding to do this or that they drop some of their other work?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Why should I have to make a case for the protection of universal civil liberties?

                      What universal civil liberties?

                      No-one’s allowed to break the law.

                    • McFlock

                      Red, you’re required to have a visa to be in Aus.

                      Imagine you didn’t. Bit were still stopped at every streetcorner and your papers were checked for no reason. And if you weren’t carrying your papers, you were detained until your identity was verified.

                      Yeah, nah.

                    • RedLogix

                      @McFlock

                      Well what I do carry with me at all times are a Drivers License and a Medicare card. Surprising how often I need them.

                      So from there I’m sure any electronically connected ABF Officer could do a fast lookup for my current visa status within seconds.

                      If you didn’t have them, then probably I’d get asked for my address, my employer, bank card, phone number, where I was staying or some such. If I could give sensible answers I doubt I’d be detained.

                      Your question is – should be have to carry identity documents with us at all times? The answer is, pretty much for all sorts of practical reasons it is the case by de-facto already.

                      Would I enjoy the experience? Of course not – such intrusion is naturally unwelcome. Would I consider it a cost worth paying to reduce immigration and visa fraud? Harder to tell, I don’t have a fixed idea on that just yet.

                    • @ draco

                      no not wrong at all

                      what happened and is still happening to Māori is colonisation and that mate is a little bit more than just immigration.

                      sure fear colonisation all you like but immigration is not the same thing.

                      btw I’m consistently amazed by how you go from distrusting govt to trusting them depending upon whether it fits your argument or not…

                    • weka

                      Your question is – should be have to carry identity documents with us at all times? The answer is, pretty much for all sorts of practical reasons it is the case by de-facto already.

                      No, it’s really not. One, we don’t have to carry documentation unless we are engaged in a specific activity (eg driving). That’s a basic civil liberty right there and not one to be given up lightly.

                      Two, I don’t always take my wallet with me when I go out, so it’s not defacto, but this relates back to One, there is no penatly nor enforcement.

                      “In which case why bother issuing visas in the first place? Why bother with passports? What is the justification for borders at all?”

                      That’s just stupid. Obviously the visa system enables all sort of things including checking at airports, but also applying for jobs etc. You seem to be arguing all or nothing, which is one good reason why you ideas shouldn’t form the basis of civil liberties protection.

                      The other stuff about stop and question is ambulance at the bottom of the cliff stuff and it’s hard to see how it would work. Put a check point at every train station? That would require either compulsory carrying of documentation, or a huge bureaucracy to process the people who didn’t have any. If I get caught driving without a licence I just have to present it within x days to the nearest police station. I’m betting the ratio of stops to people without licences on them is pretty low.

                    • RedLogix

                      @weka

                      Of course there is no mandatory requirement to carry ID at present. And like most people I’d hugely prefer it to stay that way.

                      But in practise most people do carry something with them, most of the time. As I said before, for all sorts of quite ordinary transactions you need ID.

                      Here’s one – a few months back we spent a really interesting day in the Federal Parliament building in Canberra. And to gain admission required a similar security process to an airport. You need a Medicare care for every doctors and chemist visit.

                      You need shitloads of ID to get a phone or power connected. More to rent a place. Or to apply for a job. Did I mention the library? It’s pretty much an unfortunate fact of modern life that you need ID for any commercial transaction beyond a simple cash purchase.

                      So while in principle I agree with the civil libertarians here – in practise most of us carry ID most of the time – and the world has not come to an end. Even it is a tad irritating at times.

                      Obviously the visa system enables all sort of things including checking at airports, but also applying for jobs etc.

                      Immigration Officers probably used to be able to do an effective job by targeting workplaces. But there is reasonable evidence to suggest that isn’t so effective anymore. Too many dodgy employers and illegals colluding to evade the law.

                      Clearly people are not willing to accept carte-blanche mass checking of visa and residency status across the board. But equally the problem is not going away either, and if we look past Australia and New Zealand – it’s not hard to find countries with far more draconian regimes than we are used to.

                    • McFlock

                      it’s not hard to find countries with far more draconian regimes than we are used to.

                      This is true.

                      It is not a reason to copy them, though.

                      What next – bringing back the Dawn Raids? After all, it’s only a minor inconvenience, and most people would have their ID at home, anyway… they’d also be a damned sight more successful than announcing an inner-city dragnet of random stops ahead of time.

                    • weka

                      @ Red, I live in the country and would only take my wallet out the door with me if I was going to town or the dairy. The rest of the time I don’t. I’d say that’s true for many people here.

                      You’re still missing the crucial distinction between lots of people carry ID a lot of the time and everyone has to carry ID or they will be punished. For you the freedom is a nice to have you are willing to give up to get rid of the nasty immigrants. For me the freedom is something crucial to the commons and I would fight to retain it.

                    • RedLogix

                      It is not a reason to copy them, though.

                      Australia and NZ have relatively easy borders to manage. I’m not sure how smug and judgmental we should be about other nations with far more difficult borders and immigration challenges.

                      Nor, in the light of what is happening in Europe, have we much grounds for complacency.

                      The clumsy and bungled ABF thing in Melbourne was an easy and fat target for ridicule. Clearly the idea of stopping people at random in the Melbourne CBD was never going to fly. But equally we cannot so lightly dismiss the fact that in the absence of effective border control, Australia and NZ would be very, very different places.

                      Somewhere in between these two extremes we are going to have a lot more debate in the coming years.

                      Anyway – I’m off. To Melbourne for the evening ironically enough.

                      @weka

                      Of course there is no mandatory requirement to carry ID at present. And like most people I’d hugely prefer it to stay that way.

                      So you read this as me not being able to tell difference between voluntary and mandatory carrying of ID? Where did I go wrong?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      no not wrong at all

                      what happened and is still happening to Māori is colonisation and that mate is a little bit more than just immigration.

                      You were wrong then and still wrong now. When immigration overwhelms the native population, as Europeans did with Māori, then we have colonisation and that is what would actually happen with the free movement of people.

                    • nah you are incorrect – they are different processes but I do find it interesting that, like the righties, you think immigration leads to colonisation – incorrect as that is – maybe this will help

                      I have to say, I really love it when white people compare the migration of non-whites (immigrant minorities) to wealthy countries to the colonization of other lands by whites as if those two concepts were simply reversals of the other (kind of like when white folks bring up “reverse racism”). They are no such thing: One involves wealth, power, and privilege, and the other – more often than not – involves escaping a place with few opportunities for one where there is (at least theoretically) more opportunity and freedom, and often very little power at all.

                      http://jilliancyork.com/2009/08/28/because-colonialism-and-immigration-are-basically-the-same-thing/

                    • weka

                      It seems like an important distinction, but…

                      Open borders doesn’t just mean the migration of non-whites/poor people. In NZ I’m willing to bet that the biggest influx would be middle class Europeans and USians as much as anyone. People who could afford a plane ticket for a start, who already speak English, and many who already know people here. We already have far more people from those places wanting into NZ than we are willing to take, including many who have visited here as tourists or on working visas who would have stayed if allowed.

                      The other thing is that there seems to be this implication that there would be some kind of balancing out with open borders. How does that work?

                    • Perhaps we need to address the idea that the nation states within borders are immutable and unchanging – as in the people there want to keep it the way it is and ‘always has been’ verses the reality of continuous change as people come and go.

                      Personally it seems to me that the situation we are in now cannot accept the new reality – something will have to give/change/adapt – I think that will have to be us – the western world.

                      There are no easy answers and the clock continues to tick with the effects of climate change and cheap energy kicking in – I find I can’t move much from, “what if they were us”.

                • freedom

                  sticks and stones blah blah blah Redlogix

                  You do realise you just supplied the perfect example of why I will not be playing (any further)
                  “Because logically if you don’t think a nation-state should have the authority to determine and enforce it’s border control regulations – specifically it’s visa terms – then really you should just say so. ”

                  1: I never said any such thing
                  2: mm no, number 1 pretty much covers it

                • weka

                  “I guess I’m asking the question – if we accept that it’s is ok to check for these things at the border – what is fundamentally different about checking for them inside the country?”

                  Because most people assume that once they’re inside the country they have civil liberties.

                  Because the state is institutionally racist.

                  Because there is no way to check visas by looking at someone other than by looking at someone. As opposed to say looking at everyone’s paper work that gets off a plane.

                  How about you explain how visas could be checked on the street if not by looking at someone. Or do you think that it’s a good use of the police’s time to stop people randomly (what % of people in Melbourne would have dodgy visas), and how would you make that blind?

                  I’m also curious as to how stopping someone on the street would be a useful way to check their visa. Do you carry your passport and entry documentation with you at all times?

                  • RedLogix

                    Because most people assume that once they’re inside the country they have civil liberties.

                    Does this include the ‘civil liberty’ to commit visa fraud – or overstay?

                    Do you carry your passport and entry documentation with you at all times?

                    No and as I replied to mm above obviously this may be an issue.

                    On the other hand maybe the ABF could use some other ID I always carry like a driver’s license, or Medicare card (both with photos) as a first pass. I’d imagine they could cross-check that information with their own database pretty quickly.

                    The core question is – is the act of being stopped and questioned at random in streets an inherently ‘police state’ characteristic. And if so how is it so different to the fact that in the two years I’ve been here I must have been stopped while driving to check for alcohol, license and warrant at least a dozen times?

                    • weka

                      “Does this include the ‘civil liberty’ to commit visa fraud – or overstay?”

                      Please point to where someone has said that.

                      “The core question is – is the act of being stopped and questioned at random in streets make this a ‘police state’. And is so how is it so different to the fact that in the two years I’ve been here I must have been stopped while driving to check for alcohol, license and warrant at least a dozen times?”

                      May as well cut to the chase and just go for dawn raids.

                      It’s not the core question. You want to make it the core question, but I think you should just come out with it and say what YOU think instead of projecting your views onto others. eg if you believe that Australians should carry citizenship ID by law, then just say so.

                      For many of us here the core question is why people end up illegaly immigrating and what are the ethical ways for the state to respond to that. You are focussing on how to catch illegal immgrants and appear to be advocating a reduction of civil liberties and human rights to do so.

                    • RedLogix

                      You are focussing on how to catch illegal immgrants and appear to be advocating a reduction of civil liberties and human rights to do so.

                      State power enforcing any and all illegal acts involves the reduction of ‘civil liberties’ to some degree.

                      One of the important roles of politics is to define the balance between the individual rights and the right of society to impose it’s rules and norms.

                      So my question remains – if we accept that overstaying visas IS illegal – then what is an acceptable way to go about enforcing this?

                      You’ve ruled out dawn raids, random stopping in the streets and you’d probably object to ABF visits to workplaces as well. So either you are arguing that the problem is too hard and we should just give up on enforcing them – or you have some alternate ideas that would be an acceptable balance between enforcement and liberty?

                    • weka

                      “So my question remains – if we accept that overstaying visas IS illegal – then what is an acceptable way to go about enforcing this?”

                      FFS Red, answer your own questions. Go on, I dare you.

                      “You’ve ruled out dawn raids, random stopping in the streets and you’d probably object to ABF visits to workplaces as well. So either you are arguing that the problem is too hard and we should just give up on enforcing them – or you have some alternate ideas that would be an acceptable balance between enforcement and liberty?”

                      Nah, today I’m standing up and saying the police action in Melbourne is ill conceived, probably racist, and stupid. R0b has asked use to consider what would happen in NZ. I’d be interested in talking about that. I’m not interested in developping Australian state and police policy on immigration control, not least because it’s deeply complex and related to a whole bunch of race issues specific to that place which would require a much more detailed conversation than we are having here. If you think that superficial actions like street control are useful and valid, make the argument. If you want to say what you think should happen, have at it.

                    • RedLogix

                      @weka

                      I’ve made a clear case that IF you accept the case for border controls, then logically you also have to accept some loss of civil liberty in the pursuit of enforcing them.

                      Everyone else has loudly denounced things like random street checks and dawn raids. Which leaves the traditional approach of investigating workplaces, which is probably not as effective as it once used to be – but at least it’s conducted out of sight and doesn’t cause most people much discomfort.

                      But given that border control generally is becoming a more stressful issue for all nations, it is fair to ask where does the left want to go on this?

                      At one end of the scale we could argue to simply abandon them altogether as marty has done. In a more ideal world I could actually get my head around this.

                      Or we go down the ‘fortress island’ route which by accident of geography NZ has the luxury of being able to assume as a default position. By virtue of isolation and small size NZ does not have a significant overstayer issue. Certainly not one to justify random street stops and checks.

                      But it’s not the same in other places. Border and visa control varies considerably around the world. When I was working in Russia some years back, I literally had to make a trip to the city visa office every 72 hrs to get a stamp. Or try making a visa mistake when entering the USA. And as you rightly point out, Australia does have it’s own unique context, different to NZ’s.

                      The days of our forefathers being able to roam the planet with no bureaucratic constraints are over. Indeed since WW2 the trend has been for the barriers to only be raised. And in that context I suspect it is only a matter of time before visa checks generally become more intrusive and will impinge on civil liberties more than we would like.

                    • weka

                      I’ve asked multiple times for you to state what YOU think (instead of simply asking questions). In the absence of you doing so, I am now going to surmise that you are in favour of decreasing civil liberties as necessary as much as necessary in order to control illegal immigrants.

                      Other people have put up arguments about how to address migration problems, which you appear to be completely ignoring in your synopsis of the issues.

                    • RedLogix

                      @ weka

                      In my reply at 2:21 I have stated what I think. That immigration control and visa issues are becoming more challenging and not less. Any realistic expectation is that nations will respond to this with more intrusion in our lives not less.

                      It’s worth remembering that that once upon a time the idea of police randomly stopping drivers was considered pretty horrible, yet with the right legal checks and balances, combined with better police tactics and training we’ve become accustomed to them. It hasn’t been the end of the world.

                      Dealing with the wider issues and causes of uncontrolled immigration is a wider and perfectly fine debate. But that was not what the OP focused on.

                • dukeofurl

                  Why dont we have street checks to see if individuals are complying with their parole conditions. There could be a few, very few on release from prison which may be outside their curfew.

                  Then there is taxes, lets stop people and check they are up to date with student loans and their taxes.
                  A golf club on saturday would be a interesting result !
                  I bet you would march in the streets to stop street checks on taxpayers!

                  Do you now see the absurdity of your reductio ad absurdum argument.

                  The state requires compelling reasons in a free and democratic society to impose its police powers.
                  Checking border documents at the border meets that need, walking the streets on a friday night isn’t one.

                  • weka

                    spot on.

                    In NZ we should start with benes. Street checks to make sure they’re not high, or shop checks to make sure they’re not spending the state’s money on luxuries. Better yet, just make them all have IDs and eftpos cards that allow only certain kinds of transactions.

                  • RedLogix

                    Checking border documents at the border meets that need, walking the streets on a friday night isn’t one.

                    That blatantly evades the issue.

                    If you are ok with checking visas at the border; but someone chooses to commit an offence by overstaying or breaking the terms of that visa – then what?

                    How do you think the state should go about responding to this?

                    @weka

                    Not a good comparison. Overstaying is a crime; benes spending money on ‘luxuries’ is not.

                    • weka

                      “If you are ok with checking visas at the border; but someone chooses to commit an offence by overstaying or breaking the terms of that visa – then what?”

                      Answer the question yourself Red. You are the one blatantly avoiding the issue. Just state plainly what you think.

                      Myself, I don’t care that much if someone is overstaying or breaking the terms of their visa. Sure, the state should be trying to do something about that, but not by targeting people on the street (which is what this thread is about). There are class and ethnicity issues on why some people are allowed in and some people aren’t and so sneak in or overstay. I’m in favour of border control, but you aren’t arguing border control, you are arguing for increased surveillance to catch criminals. Those increases will be abused and will lessen civil liberties.

                      As for benes, it’s illegal to take drugs and yet benes are the ones being targeted by the state, because. The comparison is around how we lessen civil liberties in an attempt to target certain classes of people, a point you appear to have missed.

                    • RedLogix

                      Myself, I don’t care that much if someone is overstaying or breaking the terms of their visa.

                      If someone gets a six month tourist visa, but just disappears with the assurance that the state will do little or nothing to enforce it – then you’ve pretty much negated the purpose of your border control.

                      It’s like having parking meters on the streets, but no-one to actually enforce them.

                      you are arguing for increased surveillance to catch criminals. Those increases will be abused and will lessen civil liberties.

                      As a general argument that’s pretty weird. Of course all state power reduces civil liberties to some extent and can be abused. But we also accept that this does not justify eliminating (or in this case neglecting) them either. On the balance they deliver a greater good than evil.

                      The comparison is around how we lessen civil liberties in an attempt to target certain classes of people, a point you appear to have missed.

                      Well if you have evidence that there are ‘certain classes’ of people who are more likely commit visa fraud then now would be a good time to point to it.

                    • weka

                      If someone gets a six month tourist visa, but just disappears with the assurance that the state will do little or nothing to enforce it – then you’ve pretty much negated the purpose of your border control.

                      I haven’t suggested that the state do little or nothing, you just made that up.

                      “you are arguing for increased surveillance to catch criminals. Those increases will be abused and will lessen civil liberties.”

                      As a general argument that’s pretty weird. Of course all state power reduces civil liberties to some extent and can be abused. But we also accept that this does not justify eliminating (or in this case neglecting) them either. On the balance they deliver a greater good than evil.

                      I haven’t suggested eliminating or neglecting. You just made that up. You can’t claim that on balance they deliver a greater good until you state what you think should happen. All you have said so far is (a) decrease civil liberties if necessary and (b) that’s going to be ok. Thank god we have actual civil liberties protectors.

                      “The comparison is around how we lessen civil liberties in an attempt to target certain classes of people, a point you appear to have missed.”

                      Well if you have evidence that there are ‘certain classes’ of people who are more likely commit visa fraud then now would be a good time to point to it.

                      No, but I can point to certain classes of people who are likely to have their civil liberties infringed more than others in the attempt to control immigrants and visitors. But of course you are arguing that that is ok, because we have to catch these criminals.

                    • Bill

                      @RL

                      You’re taking into account that an over-stayer will be unable to access social welfare, or to get a legitimate job or somewhere to live and may well experience difficulty in doing something so simple as opening a bank account? (Not that they’re likely to need one given that they’re probably going to be destitute and living right on the fringes.)

                      I’ve been in a country for an extended period where I was unable to access services that were taken for granted by that country’s citizens. Trust me, to say ‘it ain’t an easy way to live’ would be a gross under-statement of the reality.

                      I guess I’m with marty mars on this one. fuck the border controls or the state controls. If you or I or anyone turns up somewhere and the local population is willing to incorporate us into their society*, then that should be that.

                      * there are thousands upon thousands of societies in NZ.

                    • weka

                      “If you or I or anyone turns up somewhere and the local population is willing to incorporate us into their society*, then that should be that.”

                      And if they’re not, what happens?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I haven’t suggested that the state do little or nothing, you just made that up.

                      Actually, weka, you have – by insisting that they don’t do anything within the borders of the state.

                      If you or I or anyone turns up somewhere and the local population is willing to incorporate us into their society*, then that should be that.

                      That’s just it Bill, we’re not hence the border controls, visas and other laws.

                    • Bill

                      @ Weka

                      If ‘we’re’ not, then we do as we do at present and continue to seek a society where we ‘fit’. Given, as I said, that there are thousands of societies in NZ, one will likely be found.

                      There’s an obvious caveat to what I say. The reality, as we all know, is that the societies within NZ have suffered from a process of homogenisation and ‘none’ of them are particularly empowered or coherent at present.

                      But since we’re talking ideas and possibilities in the face of an onerous and largely unaccountable – I’d argue illegitimate – state apparatus…

                    • RedLogix

                      @Bill.

                      I’ve no quibble with your experience. Being an ‘illegal’ is rarely any fun.

                      But the context in Melbourne is a little different. Not too hard to find illegal employment at below minimum wages, and all the ‘social support’ you need to get by. No bank accounts, all cash, no taxes no questions.

                      Of course it undercuts other employers who play by the rules.

                    • weka

                      “Actually, weka, you have – by insisting that they don’t do anything within the borders of the state.”

                      Where have I said that? Link please, so I know what you are referring to.

                      edit, I’ll save use all the bother. Here is where I explicity say the opposite,

                      Myself, I don’t care that much if someone is overstaying or breaking the terms of their visa. Sure, the state should be trying to do something about that, but not by targeting people on the street (which is what this thread is about).

                    • Bill

                      @ RL.

                      Illegal work is always a possible option. Helps if your single, young and fairly fit. But that doesn’t deal with the debilitating effect of always having to look over your shoulder, of being seriously precarious and being intelligently very reluctant to even seek medical care should the need arise.

                      What’s a lowly paid and highly exploited job worth when you have nothing to go with it?

                      I doubt anyone would wish it on anyone. And yet states want to vilify and persecute those in such a position. It’s basic class war in all its ugliest forms. See, the ‘illegal’ with a spare million or ten isn’t an illegal, are they? And yet, they may well contribute far, far less to the country they’re in than the piss poor illegal does.

                    • weka

                      “If ‘we’re’ not, then we do as we do at present and continue to seek a society where we ‘fit’. Given, as I said, that there are thousands of societies in NZ, one will likely be found.”

                      Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you meant that a rohe could decide eg Dunedin, or St Clair, or whatever. Are you meaning more that there will be people within any given commnity that ok with the immigrants living there? What happens within that community when some people say no we don’t want x people living here?

                      There’s an obvious caveat to what I say. The reality, as we all know, is that the societies within NZ have suffered from a process of homogenisation and ‘none’ of them are particularly empowered or coherent at present.

                      Not sure we were ever that empowered or coherent. Back in the day before there was a state in NZ, British and European people already living here didn’t exactly behave well necessarily. And before that, iwi had protocols for deciding who could live where. You couldn’t just upsticks and go and live where you wanted. I think open borders is a very modern idea that doesn’t quite deal with issues of resource use or local governance. Worth exploring though.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      @weka

                      My apologies.

                    • RedLogix

                      @Bill

                      It’s basic class war in all its ugliest forms.

                      And are not illegal’s working for $10 per hour in a war with working people on the minimum wage of $23 per hour?

                      Indeed are we not all at war with Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese or African workers who will do our jobs for 1/10th of what we are paid?

                      This war is somewhat moderated by the presence of borders and immigration controls, but not eliminated.

                      If you want to talk about the root causes of this economic warfare, and the means to eliminate it – I’m all ears. But in the meantime please excuse me if I don’t drop shields while the phasors are blasting hot.

                    • Bill

                      I’m not at war with Indian workers or Chinese workers or even illegal workers here in NZ. If the state didn’t deem them ‘illegals’ then they could be unionised, yes?

                      As for the disparity in international rates of pay and conditions, they are locked in (figuratively and practically) by borders, not ameliorated by them.

                    • RedLogix

                      I’m not at war with Indian workers or Chinese workers or even illegal workers here in NZ.

                      Yes you are. Just as unionised workers are always at war with non-unionised scabs.

                      I agree that is what borders achieve, indeed they do ‘lock in’ to some extent the disparities in incomes and conditions.

                      So when you argue for the dismantling of the nation-state and it’s borders, political and economic – I’d love to know how you would see these disparities playing out?

                      My impression is that in the absence of any constraint, either at the global or nation-state level – big money capitalism would merely drive incomes and conditions down to the lowest possible denominator.

                      At least slaves had to be fed, clothed and looked after reasonably well to get any productivity out of them. But in a world of billions of disposable bodies I doubt we’d even get that much consideration.

                    • weka

                      @ Draco, no worries.

                      @ Red

                      “And are not illegal’s working for $10 per hour in a war with working people on the minimum wage of $23 per hour?”

                      Funnily enough, the people I know who are concerned about their wage rates and job availability are looking at Western European and US workers on legal visas but who are ‘taking’ jobs because NZ employers are offering such crap emplyment conditions (no contracts, low pay). So this has nothing to do with illegal immigrants.

                      “Indeed are we not all at war with Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese or African workers who will do our jobs for 1/10th of what we are paid?”

                      I’m also not at war with those people. I’m at war with the people that create the conditions that means those people will settle for Australia/NZ because there’s nowhere else to go. The West wanted globalisation, so we have it, and the West makes great use of overseas slave labour, so we can hardly turn around and blame the people that have been making our cheap shoes and electronics. Unless we think they should be kept in their place.

                      “If you want to talk about the root causes of this economic warfare, and the means to eliminate it – I’m all ears. But in the meantime please excuse me if I don’t drop shields while the phasors are blasting hot.”

                      Illegal immigrants aren’t ammunition or soldiers, they’re collateral damage.

                    • weka

                      “At least slaves had to be fed, clothed and looked after reasonably well to get any productivity out of them.”

                      Red, sometimes your ignorance is astounding.

                    • “Illegal immigrants aren’t ammunition or soldiers, they’re collateral damage.”

                      That is the point – well made weka

                      plus that slaves comment from red shows he know nots – slaves ffs /shakes head slowly

                    • RedLogix

                      @weka

                      I’m not defending slavery for a moment. It was a brutality from one end to the other. (And at the same time a constant feature of all human life for thousands of years.)

                      But a slave was usually a relatively expensive investment and it made no sense to disable them. They needed feeding, clothing and shelter if they were to ever repay the cost sunk into them.

                      Yet ironically enough in the modern world, we think ourselves free, yet our employers who lay claim to all our labour – are charged with fewer obligations towards us than a slave-owner of old might undertake.

                      So given a ‘market’ of billions of poor, desperate and often powerless bodies to be exploited – just how much obligation do you imagine unconstrained global capital might feel towards us all. Can you tell me how the rush towards gross extremes of wealth and poverty would play out?

                    • Bill

                      @ RL

                      Given the length of this un-nested exchange, I think I’ll make this my last comment. Maybe we can pick up the theme some other time.

                      Just want to say that in the absence of the modern nation state, the market economy falls. Suddenly all that economic power becomes impotent in the absence of a state enforcer/arbitrator. Sure, there is the possibility of private or corporate run militia keeping ‘us plebs’ in our place for a while, but it would a losing end game for the current ‘masters of the universe’.

                      edit – the alternative to states and market economies is, of course, democracy – sadly, an overly misused and abused term/idea.

  6. Kevin 6

    If FJK is comfortable with it? Not a chance of a protest.

  7. weka 7

    So what was the original police operation for? They were going out in force to make sure citizens are behaving themselves? Or is this some anti-terrorism thing?

    Victorian Police release a statement saying the public transport system will “be at its safest … as a diverse team of transport and enforcement agencies take to the streets as a part of Operation Fortitude”.

    The operation will involve Metro Trains, Yarra Trams, the Sheriff’s Office, Taxi Services Commission, Victoria Police and the Australia Border Force (ABF).

    Transit and Public Safety Command Acting Superintendent Campbell Mill says police will be showing strength in numbers.

    “While we are all separate organisations, we all have something in common — a responsibility to keep our community safe,” Acting Superintendent Mill says.

    “In order to do that, we need to ensure that people are behaving appropriately.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-28/timeline-of-how-operation-fortitude-unravelled/6733252

    • RedLogix 7.1

      Well just a tad further down on the same page weka is the following statement:

      The ABF releases its statement on the operation, saying it will speak “with any individual we cross paths with” and warning officers will be checking people’s visa details.

      “You need to be aware of the conditions of your visa; if you commit visa fraud you should know it’s only a matter of time before you’re caught out,” ABF regional commander for Victoria and Tasmania Don Smith says.

      I guess there are at least three questions here.

      One is – does Australia (or any other nation) have the legal and moral right to issue visas?

      And if so – was operation an appropriate way to go about enforcing them?

      And if not – then what alternative approaches do you think would be acceptable?

      • weka 7.1.1

        Are you saying that the primary objective of Operation Fortitude was to check visa/immgration?

        • RedLogix 7.1.1.1

          Well it looks like the reason why the ABF were involved.

          • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1.1

            RL do you believe that it will stop there. Do you believe that the authorities will exercise their powers lightly or judiciously.

            In some other countries where this is done, if your “papers are not in order” (as judged by the officer at the time) you will be frog marched off into an interrogation centre until your status can be “properly determined.”

            The ability for this to turn into a mechanism for intimidation and repression is huge.

            This is the whole concept behind the US Fourth Amendment.

            British troops were seizing and searching everything and everyone they wanted under the authority of a “General Warrant.”

            18th Century Americans thought that was pretty shit, and went to war over it and related issues.

            • RedLogix 7.1.1.1.1.1

              RL do you believe that it will stop there. Do you believe that the authorities will exercise their powers lightly or judiciously.

              Authorities already have an enormous range of power available to them. More than enough to abuse. Yet the force (even weakened as it is these days) of democratic accountability generally ensures these powers are used judiciously.

              Of course the example you give is a terrific example of the abuse of a power in the absence of effective accountability. What 18th Century Americans went to war over was the right to establish their own democratic mechanisms in order to stop the abuse of the power.

              But note carefully – to this day their own Police still retain the right to stop and search. Obviously Americans are generally ok with police actually having the power and while I’m not pretending to be an expert in US law, I’d guess that there are whole rafts of legal conditions attaching to it’s use.

              • Colonial Viper

                Yes, middle and upper middle class whites are generally quite happy with the conduct of the police forces in the USA. If the authorities over reach their powers, those are the same types of citizens who have the means to be able to seek legal redress from the government.

                If you are poor, English your second language, aren’t educated, and don’t have access to the privileges that you and I assume for granted – how do you think that normally goes?

                • RedLogix

                  Badly of course.

                  So what is your response? Yell ‘police state’ and shoot all the cops?

                  Or get some proper lawyers on the job?

              • weka

                “Obviously Americans are generally ok with police actually having the power”

                Except in Ferguson etc. You are bascially making a white man’s argument.

                • RedLogix

                  What they are unhappy with is the abuse of the power.

                  I don’t see many Americans arguing for the police not to be able to perform their legally authorised jobs.

                  • weka

                    The state currently enables racism that routinely kills black people. I suggest you listen to them about what they are arguing for because I don’t think it’s what you suggest.

                    • RedLogix

                      Of course black America is deeply unhappy with the racist abuse of institutional power that convicts, imprisons and kills so many of them.

                      But I’m all ears for a link demonstrating a major groundswell of black Americans arguing for the dismantling, or neutering of their legal system and police forces as the best way to deal with it.

                      I’m trying to draw a really simple distinction here between the legitimate existence and purpose of authority – and the abuse of that authority.

                      Arguing that because power can corrupt implies that all power is wrong – is like arguing that because some people kill that all humans are killers. It’s an argument that deliberately omits the fact that both power and people are more than just corruption and death; that we have other greater virtues which ultimately transcend our failings.

                      Authority is to many people a vile word, but we have yet to devise any functioning world without it.

                    • weka

                      A whole bunch of strawpeople there of your own making, I suggest you take it up with them.

                      I still think that your simplification of what black people in the US think is wrong. There are not just two options here.

                    • RedLogix

                      I was trying to respond to your comment above:

                      “Obviously Americans are generally ok with police actually having the power”

                      Except in Ferguson etc. You are bascially making a white man’s argument.

                      I get they have every reason under the sun to loath a racist police force that abuses its power – but I had already clearly acknowledged that point.

                      So when you say “Except in Ferguson” what was I supposed to understand by that?

                    • weka

                      That the racist policeforce is a deeply embedded tool of the state and the white population. That we resist decreasing civil liberties for very good reasons (the state can’t be trusted). That your argument that it’s ok to decrease civil liberties in order to deal with illegal immigration either doesn’t take that into account or doesn’t care. Your argument is that the state and/or the police use their power judiciously. That’s not true if you are black. It’s a red herring to then start talking about technical differences between power and corruption, given they are so deeply entwined and self serving.

                    • Bill

                      @ RL

                      Only immutable or illegitimate authority be vile 😉

                      And it just isn’t so hard to imagine a world that would function just fine with authority that was neither illegitimate nor immutable and could never be immutable nor illegitimate. Back to that grossly misunderstood and abused term I used up in the endless thread above – democracy.

                    • RedLogix

                      @weka

                      It’s a red herring to then start talking about technical differences between power and corruption, given they are so deeply entwined and self serving.

                      If that is your view then if you are going to condemn the corruption then I’m compelled to assume you are condemning the power as well. Given how you are arguing for them as deeply entwined and inseparable.

                      Suddenly it’s no longer a ‘technical argument’. Because now it seems you are making a case for the demolition of all legal and police authority.

                      My position is simpler and very conventional. As with all human tools, legal power and authority is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. Yet without these tools we cannot construct and maintain the fabric of our complex societies, that used judiciously and fairly, authority generates far more good than evil.

                      The challenge is not the unthinking opposing of authority – but the mastery of it’s skillful use.

                      If we accept that Australia has the legal authority to enforce visa conditions – and yet random checks on the street are not an acceptable method of doing it – then what are your criteria for something you do find acceptable?

                    • weka

                      I’m not opposed to the existence of the state. You are confusing me with other people here I think.

                      The challenge is not the unthinking opposing of authority – but the mastery of it’s skillful use

                      Really? Because I see you wanting to hand tools to people in authoritty who will consolidate their power and abuse it. Who already do.

                      If we accept that Australia has the legal authority to enforce visa conditions – and yet random checks on the street are not an acceptable method of doing it – then what are your criteria for something you do find acceptable?

                      I’m assuming that the authorities in Melbourne intended to stop people on the basis of how they looked. So one criteria would be don’t have policy that’s carried out on such a basis. Because in the hands of pretty much any group of people that belong to the dominant cuture, that’s going to reinforce racism and lead to abuse.

                      If Australia really has such a big problem with illegal immigration that it’s considering such protocol, it’s time to taihoa and rethink the whole situation. What I hear you arguing is that instead of that, let’s just do the racist thing and the thing that will lessen civil liberties across the board because we are on some inexorable march towards more and more state control anyway.

  8. Gabby 8

    Do the Aussies not keep records on who enters on visas, and how long they can stay? Randomly stopping people seems a fairly inefficient way of checking. What happens when the stoppee says ‘Fuck off, I don’t have a visa’?

    • RedLogix 8.1

      Do the Aussies not keep records on who enters on visas, and how long they can stay?

      Yes of course they do. That is how they know they have a problem.

      Randomly stopping people seems a fairly inefficient way of checking.

      Got a better idea? It’s the same way they check for drunk drivers so while it’s inefficient in one sense, it’s not unprecedented.

      What happens when the stoppee says ‘Fuck off, I don’t have a visa’?

      If you are in the country illegally – then what do you expect? A sweet smile and a polite talking to?

      • weka 8.1.1

        “It’s the same way they check for drunk drivers so while it’s inefficient in one sense, it’s not unprecedented.”

        Are you saying that the Melbourne police intended on stopping every person leaving the train station? What’s the equivalent of the breath test?

        “What happens when the stoppee says ‘Fuck off, I don’t have a visa’?

        If you are in the country illegally – then what do you expect? A sweet smile and a polite talking to?

        Actually it’s an entirely appropriate question. Were they intending to arrest people? Is there a legal obligation to provide evidence of visa/immigration status when stopped on the street? If not, what happens when someone tells the police to eff off?

        • RedLogix 8.1.1.1

          http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/border-force-could-you-be-stopped-by-an-official-20150828-gja9gq.html

          Border Force officials have a range of powers to enforce migration laws, including the power to compel a person to produce such documents as visas and tax file numbers to check whether they are an unlawful non-citizen.

          On the other hand this is balanced by the requirement that:

          But the Human Rights Law Centre’s executive director, Hugh de Kretser, said all such powers could only be exercised if the official had a reasonable suspicion someone had breached a migration offence.

          What of course constitutes ‘reasonable suspicion’ is open to interpretation. Clearly just stopping someone because they look Asian is not good enough. Stopping people in the streets at random is not how the ABF normally works, and traditionally they have targeted people working illegally. Whether or not that approach is still considered fully effective is hard to tell.

          On the other hand, there is an enforcement argument that to avoid the accusation of racist ‘targeting’ they could just stop everyone and check – as they do with drunk driving.

          • weka 8.1.1.1.1

            Your first quote doesn’t answer the question. Go back and read it again.

            “On the other hand, there is an enforcement argument that to avoid the accusation of racist ‘targeting’ they could just stop everyone and check – as they do with drunk driving.”

            Who is making that argument?

            • RedLogix 8.1.1.1.1.1

              I did.

              In the bad old days cops could just hang out down the road from a pub and pretty efficiently target drunk drivers. But this was deemed ‘unfair’ – so they changed tactics to just stopping everyone at a checkpoint.

              No-one much likes it (and here in Vic I encounter one of them around once every two months) – but we accept the trade-off in civil liberty for a gain in road safety.

              Clearly people in Melbourne and NZ don’t see the cost of immigration and visa fraud as worth the liberty cost of being stopped and questioned in the street. (Although oddly enough they accept a far more intrusive checking every-time they pass through an international airport.)

              But I’m not at all sure this makes the issue go away. Because the pressure on the state to manage immigration and apply the law is only increasing.

              • weka

                Why was it unfair?

                Pub goers vs people of colour or accent, I can see why you would make the comparison /sarc

                If you can’t see the difference between what happens at an airport and what was about to happen in Melbourne, I probably can’t explain it to you. Which just leaves us with freedom’s point and not going to play.

                You still haven’t said what you think should happen.

                • RedLogix

                  If you can’t see the difference between what happens at an airport and what was about to happen in Melbourne, I probably can’t explain it to you.

                  Because on one level you can’t. If you strip away all the bureaucratic and legal artifice – it’s just a matter of distance.

                  The difference is that we have all grown up with the expectation that there will be a whole lot of civil liberty intrusion at a border. In fact arrival halls, customs areas and transit lounges are appalling places of legal limbo where your legal rights and civil liberties are massively curtailed.

                  Most people think that the important thing is the passport. It’s not, it’s only a pre-cursor to entry. And it’s only relevant at the moment you pass through passport control.

                  What is critical is the visa. That is what actually gives you the right to be in the country and it sets the terms and conditions you have to abide by. The problem for law enforcement is visa fraud in big countries like Australia is an increasing problem and very hard to deal with.

                  But if every attempted measure to address this enforcement issue is going to be shouted down as ‘police state’ – with no-one willing to state the criteria for what they think would be an acceptable process – then no I don’t have any answer you’d be happy with.

                  • Molly

                    What if you are an Australian citizen – who understandably enough – does not walk around with a copy of an official birth certificate on them?

                    Would it be reasonable for them to say – “Don’t have a visa mate. Born in Australia” and then expect the questioner to leave it at that?

                    If that is the case, then the most rational response to any random questioning on the street would be – “I’m an Australian citizen – don’t need a visa” – especially if you are an overstayer.

                    If you have never travelled overseas or got a driver’s licence – your only official document is a birth certificate. And we all know how easy it is to get a copy of those….

                    Your primary assumption – which is erroneous – is that random stopping will be an effective means of addressing the weaknesses of immigration and border control.

                    That is not true.

                    • RedLogix

                      ABF Officers are a bit smarter than this.

                      At no point did I suggest that random stopping is the only or necessarily most effective way to deal with the challenge. That’s YOUR assumption.

                      And I’ve consistently asked for any better suggestions anyone might have – but even that gets shouted down as well.

              • weka

                and while you are at it, please answer my earlier questions re the comparison with alcohol check points: are you suggesting that the police stop every person coming out of the train station and ask them about their visa? What’s the equivalent of the breath test?

      • Gabby 8.1.2

        If I say to you, ‘Fuck off, I don’t have a visa,’ can you tell whether I’m in the country illegally?

        • RedLogix 8.1.2.1

          If you do say that, then I’d suggest you have just created grounds for ‘reasonable suspicion’ in the mind of the officer.

          • weka 8.1.2.1.1

            try running that past any number of communities whose people get routinely unfairly harassed by police and see what happens.

            If I lived in Melbourne and I got stopped by police today I’d refuse to answer their questions unless they had a good reason to stop and question me. Of course I’m white and can pass for middle class and have a kiwi accent so I’d probably get away with it.

          • Gabby 8.1.2.1.2

            Reasonable suspicion of what?

          • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.1.3

            If you do say that, then I’d suggest you have just created grounds for ‘reasonable suspicion’ in the mind of the officer.

            Reasonable suspicion has always been the legal grounds for gaining a court warrant to authorise the conducting of a search of a premises or persons.

            Australia seems to want to go down the old well worn road of utilising a “General Warrant” to go on fishing expeditions against people it does not like.

            That’s the end of liberal democracy for you right there.

            • RedLogix 8.1.2.1.3.1

              Reasonable suspicion has always been the legal grounds for gaining a court warrant to authorise the conducting of a search of a premises or persons.

              Immigration Officers work to a different set of rules. At a border control they have very broad and sweeping powers around detaining and questioning people, and not constrained much by the need for Court Orders.

              It does raise an interesting question – are those powers legally diminished or different outside the context of a border control ? I don’t know for certain, but I suspect not.

              • RedLogix

                More helpful information:

                Could ABF officers request visa information from people in the Melbourne CBD?

                ABF officers may in some circumstances be able to request details of a persons immigration status if they were in the Melbourne CBD. This is largely from existing powers under the migration act that would allow officers to require a person who they “know or reasonably suspect” is a non-citizen to present evidence of their lawful immigration status, or to provide details of their identity.

                These kind of “compliance checks” have happened in the past, as noted by the former immigration communications manager Sandi Logan. But in previous instances compliance checks were undertaken in much more limited ways, and often when there had been a tip-off about concerns at a particular location about immigration statuses.

                In the event ABF officers were deployed around the city to conduct visa checks, it’s difficult to see how they could “reasonably suspect” that a person was a non-citizen in order to request their visa details without any existing information to support that view.

                But if a lawful search resulted in finding that a person was in breach of their visa conditions and should not be residing in Australia, it is possible they could be taken into immigration detention.

                http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/28/australian-border-force-melbourne-cbd-six-things-you-need-to-know-explainer

                So in principle it appears that ABF Immigration Officers have potentially more power than Police Officers – but that by convention they restrict themselves to exercising them at border controls or in a limited manner outside of that context.

  9. Gabby 9

    But nobody who lives there permanently has a visa. Maybe I look ‘foreign’.

  10. Bill 10

    Anyone mentioned the ‘Dawn Raids’ in relation to how NZ or NZ-ers might be expected to react?

  11. In the first sentence of the post is the term ‘human rights’.

    As red has noted above when borders, or to be frank immigrants/refugees, get policed we can expect some lowering of our civil liberties – OUR civil liberties – but as we’ve seen the human rights of those immigrants/refugees are not given due consideration – that’s why we can have 71 dead in a truck and 200 dead on the water and these are daily occurrences, daily deaths and misery. We can blame the traffickers and the exploiters of these poor people but the policies we put in place allow them to flourish and allow them to take advantage of desperation, and we know the line is blurred when governments pay off the traffickers to take the immigrants/refugees somewhere else – to die or live in even more misery.

  12. Colonial Viper 12

    At the end of the day I can see western democracies becoming more illiberal, more authoritarian, and feeling much more like East Germany in atmosphere and attitude. Keep your head down, stay out of the spotlight, don’t draw attention to yourself. In case.

    Fucking brilliant civilisation we’re finishing up as.

    • Bill 12.1

      It’s the natural final resting point of social (faux) democracies – an inevitable crystalising of their inherent authoritarianism.

    • b waghorn 12.2

      And serco will be there to make sure it all runs efficiently!!

    • miravox 12.3

      “feeling much more like East Germany in atmosphere and attitude”

      And language – Australian Border Force sounds all a bit militaristic doesn’t it? Perfect for an organisation that sets up stupid plans using heroic names like ‘operation fortitude‘ to interrogate the public exiting their trains.

      Did the Immigration Dept get extra powers (apart from operating outside the physical areas of immigration) with the brawny new name?

  13. philj 13

    How do you know when you are on a very slow slippery slope? When will you know we are in a police state?

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Are we fine with 47.9% home-ownership by 2048?

    Renting for life: Shared ownership initiatives are unlikely to slow the slide in home ownership by much. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:A Deloitte report for Westpac has projected Aotearoa’s home-ownership rate will ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 hours ago
  • Let's Win This

    You're broken down and tiredOf living life on a merry go roundAnd you can't find the fighterBut I see it in you so we gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsWe gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsAnd I'll rise upI'll rise like the dayI'll rise upI'll rise unafraidI'll rise upAnd I'll ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 hours ago
  • Waimahara: The Singing Spirit of Water

    There’s been a change in Myers Park. Down the steps from St. Kevin’s Arcade, past the grassy slopes, the children’s playground, the benches and that goat statue, there has been a transformation. The underpass for Mayoral Drive has gone from a barren, grey, concrete tunnel, to a place that thrums ...
    Greater AucklandBy Connor Sharp
    6 hours ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Tuesday, July 23

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Tuesday, July 23 are:Deep Dive: Penlink: where tolling rhetoric meets reality BusinessDesk-$$$’s Oliver LewisScoop: Te Pūkenga plans for regional polytechs leak out ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 hours ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Tuesday, July 23

    TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 23, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Health: Shane Reti announced the Board of Te Whatu Ora- Health New Zealand was being replaced with Commissioner Lester Levy ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    8 hours ago
  • HealthNZ and Luxon at cross purposes over budget blowout

    Health NZ warned the Government at the end of March that it was running over Budget. But the reasons it gave were very different to those offered by the Prime Minister yesterday. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon blamed the “botched merger” of the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) to create Health ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    9 hours ago
  • 2500-3000 more healthcare staff expected to be fired, as Shane Reti blames Labour for a budget defic...

    Long ReadKey Summary: Although National increased the health budget by $1.4 billion in May, they used an old funding model to project health system costs, and never bothered to update their pre-election numbers. They were told during the Health Select Committees earlier in the year their budget amount was deficient, ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    11 hours ago
  • Might Kamala Harris be about to get a 'stardust' moment like Jacinda Ardern?

    As a momentous, historic weekend in US politics unfolded, analysts and commentators grasped for precedents and comparisons to help explain the significance and power of the choice Joe Biden had made. The 46th president had swept the Democratic party’s primaries but just over 100 days from the election had chosen ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    16 hours ago
  • Solutions Interview: Steven Hail on MMT & ecological economics

    TL;DR: I’m casting around for new ideas and ways of thinking about Aotearoa’s political economy to find a few solutions to our cascading and self-reinforcing housing, poverty and climate crises.Associate Professor runs an online masters degree in the economics of sustainability at Torrens University in Australia and is organising ...
    The KakaBy Steven Hail
    21 hours ago
  • Reported back

    The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    23 hours ago
  • Vandrad the Viking, Christopher Coombes, and Literary Archaeology

    Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
    23 hours ago
  • Gordon Campbell On The Biden Withdrawal

    History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
    WerewolfBy lyndon
    1 day ago
  • Joe Biden's withdrawal puts the spotlight back on Kamala and the USA's complicated relatio...

    This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    1 day ago
  • Why we have to challenge our national fiscal assumptions

    A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago
  • Existential Crisis and Damaged Brains

    What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 day ago
  • A speed limit is not a target, and yet…

    This is a guest post from longtime supporter Mr Plod, whose previous contributions include a proposal that Hamilton become New Zealand’s capital city, and that we should switch which side of the road we drive on. A recent Newsroom article, “Back to school for the Govt’s new speed limit policy“, ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    1 day ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Monday, July 22

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Monday, July 22

    TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 day ago
  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29

    A listing of 32 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 14, 2024 thru Sat, July 20, 2024. Story of the week As reflected by preponderance of coverage, our Story of the Week is Project 2025. Until now traveling ...
    2 days ago
  • I'd like to share what I did this weekend

    This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    2 days ago
  • For the children – Why mere sentiment can be a misleading force in our lives, and lead to unex...

    National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Order image, ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    2 days ago
  • A friend in uncertain times

    Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago
  • The Chaotic World of Male Diet Influencers

    Hi,We’ll get to the horrific world of male diet influencers (AKA Beefy Boys) shortly, but first you will be glad to know that since I sent out the Webworm explaining why the assassination attempt on Donald Trump was not a false flag operation, I’ve heard from a load of people ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    2 days ago
  • It's Starting To Look A Lot Like… Y2K

    Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Bernard’s Saturday Soliloquy for the week to July 20

    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Pharmac Director, Climate Change Commissioner, Health NZ Directors – The latest to quit this m...

    Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    4 days ago
  • Flooding Housing Policy

    The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    4 days ago
  • A Voyage Among the Vandals: Accepted (Again!)

    As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
    4 days ago
  • The Kākā's Chorus for Friday, July 19

    An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Friday, July 19

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 19-July-2024

    Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    4 days ago
  • Weekly Climate Wrap: A market-led plan for failure

    TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Tobacco First

    Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • Trump’s Adopted Son.

    Waiting In The Wings: For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
    4 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Friday, July 19

    TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSA announced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to July 19

    TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #29 2024

    Open access notables Improving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society: To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
    5 days ago
  • We're back again! Join us for the weekly Hoon on YouTube Live

    Photo by Gabriel Crismariu on UnsplashWe’re back again after our mid-winter break. We’re still with the ‘new’ day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when we have our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream for ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Gut Reactions.

    Trump Writes His Own Story: Would the “mainstream” media even try to reflect the horrified reaction of the MAGA crowd to the pop-pop-pop of the would-be assassin’s rifle, and Trump going down? Could it even grasp the sheer elation of the rally-goers seeing their champion rise up and punch the air, still alive, ...
    5 days ago
  • Dodging Bullets.

    Fight! Fight! Fight! Had the assassin’s bullet found its mark and killed Donald Trump, America’s descent into widespread and murderous violence – possibly spiralling-down into civil war – would have been immediate and quite possibly irreparable. The American Republic, upon whose survival liberty and democracy continue to depend, is certainly not ...
    5 days ago
  • 'Corruption First' Strikes Again

    There comes a point in all our lives when we must stop to say, “Enough is enough. We know what’s happening. We are not as stupid or as ignorant as you believe us to be. And making policies that kill or harm our people is not acceptable, Ministers.”Plausible deniability has ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    5 days ago
  • The Kākā's Chorus for Thursday, July 18

    TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:The inside stories of KiwiRail’s iRex debacle, Westport’s perma-delayed flood scheme and Christchurch’s post-quake sewer rebuild, which assumed no population growth, show just how deeply sceptical senior officials in Treasury, the Ministry of ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • What's that Jack Black?

    Ah-rah, deeSoo-guh-goo-gee-goo-geeGoo-guh fli-goo gee-gooGuh fli-goo, ga-goo-buh-deeOoh, guh-goo-beeOoh-guh-guh-bee-guh-guh-beeFli-goo gee-gooA-fliguh woo-wa mama Lucifer!I’m about ready to move on, how about you?Not from the shooting, that’s bad and we definitely shouldn’t have that. But the rehabilitation of Donald J Trump? The deification of Saint Donald? As the Great Unifier?Gimme a bucket.https://yellowscene.com/2024/04/07/trump-as-jesus/Just to re-iterate, ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • June 2024: Earth’s 13th-consecutive warmest month on record

    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Jeff Masters and Bob Henson June 2024 was Earth’s warmest June since global record-keeping began in 1850 and was the planet’s 13th consecutive warmest month on record, NOAA’s National Centers for Environmental Information, or NCEI, reported July 12. As opposed to being focused in ...
    5 days ago
  • Connecting the dots and filling the gaps in our bike network

    This is a guest post by Shaun Baker on the importance of filling the gaps in our cycling networks. It originally appeared on his blog Multimodal Adventures, and is re-posted here with kind permission. In our towns and cities in Aotearoa New Zealand, there are areas in our cycling networks ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    5 days ago
  • Webworm Down Under Photos!

    Hi,I wanted to share a few thoughts and photos from the Webworm popup and Tickled screening we held in Auckland, New Zealand last weekend.In short — it was a blast. I mean, I had a blast and I hope any of you that came also had a blast.An old friend ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    5 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Thursday, July 18

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 6:30 am on Thursday, July 18 are:News: Christchurch's sewer systems block further housing developments RNZ’s Niva ChittockAnalysis: Interislander: Treasury, MoT officials' mistrust of KiwiRail led ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Thursday, July 18

    TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Thursday, July 18, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Verbatim: Climate Change Minister Simon Watts held a news conference in Auckland to release the Government’s Emissions Reduction Plan, including ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • The politics of managed retreat

    Climate change deniers are now challenging the Government over a key climate change adaptation policy. That begs the question of whether New Zealand First will then support Government moves to implement processes to deal with a managed retreat for properties in danger of flooding because of sea level rise and ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Some changes are coming

    Warm welcome again to those who are here. The Mountain Tui substack was officially started on the 2nd of July. I wrote about what led me here on this post. Since then, it’s been a learning to navigate the platform, get to meet those in the community, and basically be ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    6 days ago
  • About fucking time

    The US Supreme Court has been rogue for years, with openly corrupt judges making the law up as they go to suit themselves, their billionaire buyers, and the Republican Party. But now, in the wake of them granting a licence for tyranny, President Biden is actually going to try and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Climate Change: False accounting and wishful thinking

    National released their draft 2026-2030 Emissions Reduction Plan today. The plan is required under the Zero Carbon Act, and must set out policies and strategies to meet the relevant emissions budget. Having cancelled all Labour's actually effective climate change policies and crashed the carbon price, National was always going to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • The Enemies Of Sunshine And Space.

    Our Houses? The Urban Density debate is a horrible combination of intergenerational avarice and envy, fuelled by the grim certainty that none of the generations coming up after them will ever have it as good as the Boomers. To say that this situation rankles among those born after 1965 is to ...
    6 days ago
  • Still the 5 Eyes Achilles Heel?

    The National Cyber Security Centre (NZSC), a unit in the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) dedicated to cyber-security, has released a Review of its response to the 2021 email hacking of NZ members of the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China (IPAC, … Continue reading ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    6 days ago
  • Britain's Devastating Electoral Slip.

    Slip-Sliding Away: Labour may now enjoy a dominant position in Britain’s political landscape, but only by virtue of not being swallowed by it.THE BRITISH LABOUR PARTY’S “landslide victory” is nothing of the sort. As most people understand the term, a landslide election victory is one in which the incumbent government, or ...
    6 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on why right wingers think all governments (including their own) are incompetent

    Since open denial of climate change is no longer a viable political option, denial now comes in disguise. The release this week of the coalition government’s ‘draft emissions reductions plan” shows that the Luxon government is refusing to see the need to cut emissions at source. Instead, it proposes to ...
    WerewolfBy lyndon
    6 days ago
  • The Kākā's Chorus for Wednesday, July 17

    TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy this morning are:Chris Penk is set to roll back building standards for insulation that had only just been put in place, and which had been estimated to save 40% from power costs, after builders ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Open Letter to Pharmac

    All this talk of getting oldIt's getting me down, my loveLike a cat in a bag, waiting to drownThis time I'm coming downAnd I hope you're thinking of meAs you lay down on your sideNow the drugs don't workThey just make you worse but I know I'll see your face ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • A blanket of misinformation

    Two old sayings have been on my mind lately. The first is: “The pen is mightier than the sword”, describing the power of language and communication to help or to harm. The other, which captures the speed with which falsehoods can become ingrained and hard to undo, is: “A lie can ...
    Greater AucklandBy Connor Sharp
    6 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Wednesday, July 17

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day to 7:00 am on Wednesday, July 17 are:Scoop: Government considers rolling back home insulation standards RNZ’s Eloise GibsonNews: Government plans tree-planting frenzy as report shows NZ no longer ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Wednesday, July 17

    TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Wednesday, July 17 , the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day were:Simon Watts released the Government’s draft Emissions Reduction Plan (ERP), which included proposed changes to the Emissions Trading Scheme ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • “Shhhh” – National's 3 Waters is loaded with higher costs and lays a path to ...

    This is a long, possibly technical, but very, very important read. I encourage you to take the time and spread your awareness.IntroductionIn 2022, then Labour Party Prime Minister Jacinda Adern expended significant political capital to protect New Zealand’s water assets from privatisation. She lost that battle, and Labour and the ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    7 days ago
  • Plugging a video channel: Dr Gilbz

    Dr. Ella Gilbert is a climate scientist and presenter with a PhD in Antarctic climate change, working at the British Antarctic Survey (BAS). Her background is in atmospheric sciences and she's especially interested in the physical mechanisms of climate change, clouds, and almost anything polar. She is passionate about communicating climate ...
    7 days ago
  • Some “scrutiny” again

    Back in 2022, in its Open Government Partnership National Action Plan, the government promised to strengthen scrutiny of Official Information Act exemption clauses in legislation. Since then they've run a secret "consultation" on how to do that, with their preferred outcome being that agencies will consult the Ministry of Justice ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Crashing New Zealand's health system is not the way to prosperity, Prime Minister

    Another day, and yet another piece of bad news for New Zealand’s health system. Reports have come out that General Practitioners (GP) may have to close doors, or increase patient fees to survive. The so-called ‘capitation’ funding review, which supports GP practices to survive, is under way, and primary care ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    7 days ago
  • Closer Than You Think: Ageing Boomers, Laurie & Les, Talk Politics.

    Redefining Our Terms: “When an angry majority is demanding change, defending the status-quo is an extremist position.”“WHAT’S THIS?”, asked Laurie, eyeing suspiciously the two glasses of red wine deposited in front of him.“A nice drop of red. I thought you’d be keen to celebrate the French Far-Right’s victory with the ...
    1 week ago
  • Come on Darleen.

    Good morning all, time for a return to things domestic. After elections in the UK and France, Luxon gatecrashing Nato, and the attempted shooting of Trump, it’s probably about time we re-focus on local politics.Unless of course you’re Christopher Luxon and you’re so exhausted from all your schmoozing in Washington ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago
  • How the Northwest was lost and may be won

    This is a guest post by Darren Davis. It originally appeared on his excellent blog, Adventures in Transitland, which we encourage you to check out. It is shared by kind permission. The Northwest has always been Auckland’s public transport Cinderella, rarely invited to the public funding ball. How did ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    1 week ago
  • The Kākā's Chorus for Tuesday July 16

    Luxon has told a Financial Times’ correspondent he would openly call out China’s spying in future and does not fear economic retaliation from Aotearoa’s largest trading partner.File Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Tuesday, ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Tuesday, July 16

    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 16 are:PM Christopher Luxon has given a very hawkish interview to the Financial Times-$$$ correspondent in Washington, Demetri Sevastopulu, saying ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Tuesday, July 16

    Photo by Ryunosuke Kikuno on UnsplashTL;DR: The top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day to 6:00 am are:BNZ released its Performance of Services Index for June, finding that services sector is at its lowest level of activity ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • The second crisis; assumption was the mother

    Late on the night of July 16, 1984, while four National Cabinet Ministers were meeting in the Beehive office of Deputy Prime Minister Jim McLay, plotting the ultimate downfall of outgoing Prime Minister Sir Robert Muldoon, another crisis was building up in another part of the capital. The United States ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    1 week ago
  • Can we air condition our way out of extreme heat?

    This is a re-post from The Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler Air conditioning was initially a symbol of comfort and wealth, enjoyed by the wealthy in theaters and upscale homes. Over time, as technology advanced and costs decreased, air conditioning became more accessible to the general public. With global warming, though, ...
    1 week ago
  • Review: The Zimiamvian Trilogy, by E.R. Eddison (1935-1958)

    I have reviewed some fairly obscure stuff on this blog. Nineteenth century New Zealand speculative fiction. Forgotten Tolkien adaptations. George MacDonald and William Morris. Last month I took a look at The Worm Ouroboros (1922), by E.R. Eddison, which while not strictly obscure, is also not overly inviting to many ...
    1 week ago
  • Media Link: AVFA on the Trump assassination attempt.

    In this episode of “A View from Afar” Selwyn Manning and I discuss the attempt on Donald Trump’s life and its implications for the US elections. The political darkness grows. ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago

  • Sir Don to travel to Viet Nam as special envoy

    Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced.    “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • Grant Illingworth KC appointed as transitional Commissioner to Royal Commission

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024.  “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • NZ to advance relationships with ASEAN partners

    Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane.    “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says.   “This will be our third visit to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 hours ago
  • Backing mental health services on the West Coast

    Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 hours ago
  • NZ support for sustainable Pacific fisheries

    New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 hours ago
  • Students’ needs at centre of new charter school adjustments

    Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 hours ago
  • Commissioner replaces Health NZ Board

    In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today.  “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • Minister to speak at Australian Space Forum

    Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum.  While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation.  “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Climate Change Minister to attend climate action meeting in China

    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan.  “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Oceans and Fisheries Minister to Solomons

    Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government launches Military Style Academy Pilot

    The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Nine priority bridge replacements to get underway

    The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Update on global IT outage

    Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand, Japan renew Pacific partnership

    New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says.    “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New infrastructure energises BOP forestry towns

    New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • 'Pacific Futures'

    President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests.    Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone.    Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Delivering 24 hour pothole repairs

    Kiwis and freight operators will benefit from the Coalition Government delivering on its commitment to introduce targets that will ensure a greater number of potholes on our state highways are identified and fixed within 24 hours, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Increasing productivity to help rebuild our economy is a key ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Peer Support Specialists rolled out in hospitals

    Five hospitals have been selected to trial a new mental health and addiction peer support service in their emergency departments as part of the Government’s commitment to increase access to mental health and addiction support for New Zealanders, says Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey.  “Peer Support Specialists in EDs will ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Consultation opens for the Emissions Reduction Plan

    The Government’s draft Emissions Reduction Plan shows we can stay within the limits of the first two emissions budgets while growing the economy, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “This draft Emissions Reduction Plan shows that with effective climate change policies we can both grow the economy and deliver our ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Benefit stats highlight need for welfare reset

    The coalition Government is providing extra support for job seekers to ensure as many Kiwis as possible are in work or preparing for work, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “While today’s quarterly data showing a rise in the number of people on Jobseeker benefits has been long ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • School attendance continues to increase

    Provisional school attendance data for Term 2 2024 released today has shown more students are back in class compared to last year, with 53.1 per cent of students regularly attending, compared with 47 per cent in Term 2 2023, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. “The Government has prioritised student ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • $22.7m of West Coast resilience projects underway

    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news of progress being made by the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) on the first of several crucial resilience projects underway on the South Island’s West Coast.“State highways across the West Coast are critical lifelines for communities throughout the region, including for freight and tourism. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Migrant school leavers to get part-time work rights

    The coalition Government is providing migrant school leavers with greater opportunities, by increasing access to part-time work rights for those awaiting the outcome of a family residence application, Immigration Minister Erica Stanford has announced.  “Many young people who are part of a family residence application process are unable to work. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Funding to support use of NZ Sign Language

    Seven projects have received government funding totalling nearly $250,000 to maintain and promote the use of New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL). Initiatives that received an NZSL Board Community Grants this year include camps that support the use of NZSL through physical and sensory activities, and clubs where Deaf people and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Inflation data shows progress in economic recovery

    Today’s Consumer Price Index data which has inflation at 3.3 per cent for the year to July 2024, shows we are turning our economy around and winning the fight against rampant inflation, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says.  “While today’s data will be welcome news for Kiwis, I know many New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Experts to advise Minister on Oranga Tamariki

    The Oranga Tamariki Ministerial Advisory Board has been re-established by the Minister for Children, Karen Chhour. “I look forward to working with the new board to continue to ensure Oranga Tamariki and the care and protection system, are entirely child centric,” Minister Chhour says. “The board will provide independent advice ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Expectations set for improved medicines access

    Associate Health Minister David Seymour says he has set clear expectations for Pharmac around delivering the medicines and medical technology that Kiwis need.  “For many New Zealanders, funding for pharmaceuticals is life or death, or the difference between a life of pain and suffering or living freely. New cancer medicines ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Regional Development Minister to host summits

    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones will hold a series of nationwide summits to discuss regional priorities, aspirations and opportunities, with the first kicking off in Nelson on August 12. The 15 summits will facilitate conversations about progressing regional economic growth and opportunities to drive productivity, prosperity and resilience through the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government delivers new school for Rolleston

    The Coalition Government is addressing growing demands on Canterbury’s school network, by delivering a new primary school in Rolleston, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. Within Budget 24’s $400 million investment into school property growth, construction will begin on a new primary school (years 1-8) in Selwyn, Canterbury.  Rolleston South Primary ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New speed camera signs to improve safety

    The Government is welcoming the rollout of new speed camera signs for fixed speed cameras to encourage drivers to check their speeds, improving road safety and avoiding costly speeding tickets, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Providing Kiwis with an opportunity to check their speed and slow down in high crash areas ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • NZ, Korea strengthen relationship

    New Zealand and the Republic of Korea continue to strengthen their relationship, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “New Zealand and Korea have a long history – from New Zealand soldiers fighting in the Korean War, through to our strong cooperation today as partners supporting the international rules-based order.    ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Investing for future growth in tourism and hospitality

    The Government is moving forward with recommendations from the Tourism Data Leadership Group, beginning with establishing a Tourism Data Partnership Fund says Tourism and Hospitality Minister Matt Doocey. “The Tourism Data Partnership Fund is funded through the International Visitor Conservation and Tourism Levy (IVL) and will provide up to $400,000 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • 4000 more job seekers to get case managers

    A new over-the-phone employment case management service will see thousands more job seekers under the age of 25 supported to find work, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston has announced. “MSD case managers provide valuable support to help people into work, but less than a third of those receiving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Trade Minister to attend G7 meeting in Italy

    Trade Minister Todd McClay will attend the Group of Seven (G7) Trade Ministers meeting in Reggio Calabria, Italy next week. This is the first time New Zealand has been invited to join the event, which will be attended by some of the world’s largest economies and many of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Ministers reveal consequences for unruly Kāinga Ora tenants

    Ministers are pleased to see Kāinga Ora taking a stronger approach to managing unruly, threatening or abusive tenants, Housing Minister Chris Bishop and Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka say.    “For far too long, a small number of Kāinga Ora tenants have ridden roughshod over their neighbours because, under Kāinga ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister wraps up US visit in California

    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has finished a successful four-day visit to the United States with meetings in California on his final day focusing on innovation and investment.  “It has been fantastic to be in San Francisco today seeing first-hand the deepening links between New Zealand and California. “New Zealand company, EV Maritime, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister leads Indo-Pacific Four at NATO

    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today chaired a meeting of the Indo-Pacific Four (IP4) countries – Australia, Japan, the Republic of Korea and New Zealand. The IP4 met in the context of NATO’s Summit in Washington DC hosted by President Biden. “Prosperity is only possible with security,” Mr Luxon says. “We need ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • District Court judges appointed

    Attorney-General Hon Judith Collins today announced the appointment of three new District Court Judges.   The appointees, who will take up their roles in July and August at the Manukau, Rotorua and Invercargill courts, are:   Matthew Nathan Judge Nathan was admitted to bar in New Zealand in 2021, having previously been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Urgent review into Wairoa flood response begins

    Environment Minister, Penny Simmonds today announced the terms of reference for a rapid review into the Wairoa flood response. “The Wairoa community has raised significant concerns about the management of the Wairoa River bar and the impact this had on flooding of properties in the district,” says Ms Simmonds. “The Government ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • NZDF’s Red Sea deployment extended

    New Zealand has extended its contribution to the US-led coalition working to uphold maritime security in the Red Sea, Defence Minister Judith Collins and Foreign Minister Winston Peters announced today. “The decision to extend this deployment is reflective of the continued need to partner and act in line with New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago

Page generated in The Standard by Wordpress at 2024-07-23T02:21:28+00:00