Chart o’ the day: Not on target

Written By: - Date published: 11:01 am, September 20th, 2011 - 74 comments
Categories: ETS - Tags:

This graph is from the review of the Emissions Trading Scheme. A few points to note:

  • Net emissions rise when the pine forests planted in the 1990s are felled and then fall as the next generation of trees mature are replanted, before starting to rise again with the next round of deforestation beginning in the middle of the century.
  • The ETS actually does make a difference, a big one – over half a billion tonnes of CO2 emissions less than without it which equates to tens of billions in savings for the country in carbon credits, not to mention helping to slow climate change.
  • But this is the weakened National ETS, with the $100 billion worth of subsidies to polluters by 2050. Remember, National promised to reduce emissions to 50% of current levels by 2050. They won’t even come close.

– Dean

74 comments on “Chart o’ the day: Not on target”

  1. queenstfarmer 1

    The ETS actually does make a difference, a big one – over half a billion tonnes of CO2 emissions less than without it

    I presume you mean that between now and 2050, NZ might produce a cumulative, additional 500 million tonnes of CO2 (ie over the full 39 years).

    Just last year, China alone produced 7,700 million tonnes of CO2. So without an ETS (assuming the above – happy to be corrected), over the next 39 years NZ would save about 6.5% of what China pumps out in a single year, merely at its current level. On an annualised basis, that is 0.16% of what China alone produces. With all the coal plants etc coming on line in China, you can be that figure will be much less.

    You call that a big difference? I beg to differ.

    • Colonial Viper 1.1

      qstf according to your logic we can shit on our environment and our people to the nth degree and it won’t make any difference because China and its billion point four people will average it out.

      What you forget is the mindset that we carry around as a society, and as individuals.

      • Joe Bloggs 1.1.1

        Nup Viper you’re misattributing and your logic is flawed…

        QueenStreetFarmer is simply pointing out that as far as contributions go the potential savings generated by NZ over 39 years amounts to something akin to the size of a mayfly on the rump of a rather large elephant.

        Logically, in order to make a big difference one would start with controlling the elephant before swatting mayflies

        • Puddleglum 1.1.1.1

          This is odd.

          When it comes to New Zealand’s public debt, the argument often run by the right is that, even though private debt (the ‘elephant’) is the main problem, cutting public sector debt and doing next to nothing to hold back private sector debt (e.g., through a CGT) is still a ‘good strategy’.

          Yet, when it comes to something far more serious in its consequences (the planet), the logic reverses. No point in doing anything if you can’t control the elephant. 

          I think it needs to be pointed out that innovation tends to come out of constraint – not out of limitlessness. NZ could fashion its economy into something robust and innovative by exercising a little self-discipline. 

          • queenstfarmer 1.1.1.1.1

            You seem to be running the argument that NZ should financially hamstring itself to encourage innovation in green technology. Well the US has just undertaken a massive exercise, spending billions of “stimulus” dollars to kick-start green tech. It has been a massive disaster. The technology isn’t there, the demand isn’t there – though of course it will be in future.

            And this is putting aside the fact that the ETS won’t make any difference in reality.

            • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Well the US has just undertaken a massive exercise, spending billions of “stimulus” dollars to kick-start green tech. It has been a massive disaster.

              Ahem.

              The disaster was not the green tech.

              The disaster was typical US style crony corporate capitalism.

            • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1.1.1.2

              “Well the US has just undertaken a massive exercise, spending billions of “stimulus” dollars to kick-start green tech. It has been a massive disaster.”

              Really?

              “Massive” sounds like an objective sort of thing, but of course it’s relative.

              The US economy is certainly massive in comparison to ours. But how many billions would amount to a “massive exercise” of stimulus in the US economy? I’d say it would have to be some hundreds of billions at a minimum, to be reasonably described as ‘massive’ in that context.

              Likewise for “massive disaster”. What does that mean? As disastrous for the US books as the unfunded wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or perhaps GWB’s tax cuts? If it was less ‘disastrous’ than those events, then calling it a “massive disaster” would mean that those events were what? Unthinkable calamities? Horrors from the dark that mortal men know not what of?

              I’m sure you have some reasonable and sober link that justifies your massive rhetorical flourish.

              I’d be enormously interested in casting an eye over such. I’ll just die if I don’t get to see it.

              • queenstfarmer

                I’m not sure what you’re asking for here – justification that the biggest stimulus in history can fairly be called “massive”?

                • Pascal's bookie

                  Your claim was that there has been a massive exercise of green tech stimulus and that it has been a massive disaster.

                  Now you seem to be saying that the whole stimulus package could be described as massive, not just the green tech compnent of it. Was the green tech component bigger or smaller than the taxation aspect of the stimpak?

                  In any case, your sophistry is showing.

                  • queenstfarmer

                    The entire stimulus is the biggest in history, and the green tech component is also the biggest of its kind in history. You seem not to know the basic background to all this. You might want to do your own research before jumping back in.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      More sophistry. You claimed that there had been a massive green tech stimulus that had been a massive disaster.

                      Now you are saying that the overall stimulus was massive, and the the green tech aspect of it was the biggest ever, (which doesn’t make it massive in terms of the US economy, or massive in terms of stimulus), and still haven’t given me anything to back up the massive disaster claim.

                      It’s obvious you can’t back either of your initial claims about ‘massive’ up, so you are shifting the goal posts and claiming I need to do research about the new goal posts.

                      You pretty much suck at this qs.

                      BTW, did you used to comment here under another handle, your style is very familiar.

                    • queenstfarmer

                      ^ Nothing inconsistent with anything I have said. There has been a massive green stimulus, the overall stimulus was massive, and it has been a disaster (whether it is a disaster is clearly opinion, which I share). I have already posted links. There are many more, but when I posted links proving you wrong when you scoffed at the suggestion that the “-gate” suffix would be applied to the solar company, you dismissed the sources off hand.

                      No, I have never posted here under any other handle. I’m sure the person with a similar style is a very wise and smart person.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Good lord.

                      I wasn’t scoffing at the idea that ‘gate’ would be affixed. That’s like scoffing at the idea that FOX would be up in arms. Of course right wingers will be beating up the story and saying all sorts of things.

                      You really are all about sophistry aren’t you. It’s all about what people say, and not about what anything means.

                      That’s not wise, it’s pathetic.

                    • bbfloyd

                      queeny… you assume the right to shift your arguments to suit your agenda, and seem not to understand why you get called out on it…. why don’t you go and ask someone with some real brains to explain to you why that happens…..

                    • Bazar

                      QFarmer, thanks for your putting the time in to debate these left wings, its nice to see someone with a sane head debate for common sense.

                      I used to do it here, but frankly it wore me out.
                      Still as thanks for your work, i’ll rebuff floyd.

                      Here floyd, for your easy peruse, is a simplified transcript of this thread:

                      QFarmer: We aren’t big enough to make a differance, isn’t worth hamstring our economy
                      Viper: Huuur Duur
                      Blogs: Quiet Viper
                      Pugglegum: Right wingers are hypocritical; We’d also be better off if we had a handicap to encourage innovation.
                      QFarmer: The US spent billions to kick-start green tech and its been a disaster
                      Viper: HUUUUR DUUR
                      Puddlegum: It wasn’t a disaster, the US is so large, its only a small disaster when put in perspective.
                      QFarmer: So you’re saying it wasn’t a huge disaster then?
                      Puddlegum: The green investment was only a small part of the huge investment.
                      QFarmer: It was still the largest investment in green technology ever
                      Pascal: Links or it didn’t happen
                      QFarmer: I already have elsewhere
                      Pascal: You’re pathetic
                      Floyd: You keep changing your arguement QFarmer, i think you’re too stupid to hold a real debate.

                      To me this shows why i stopped bothering with this site, you provide sound logic and you’ll get shifty responses, and if you pursue those responses you’ll get called out on it, even if you’re in the right.

                      It reminded me of a saying my sister said. “Never argue with an idiot, they’ll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”.

                • Colonial Viper

                  I’m not sure what you’re asking for here – justification that the biggest stimulus in history can fairly be called “massive”?

                  The only truly massive stimulus Obama conducted in the last 3 years was US$12T (or more) injected into the banking and shadow banking systems.

                  Actual ‘real’ industry got fuck all in comparison.

            • Puddleglum 1.1.1.1.1.3

              Qsf, economies – being in the real world – are ‘hamstrung’ as a matter of course. Japan has no oil, Singapore has no land, European countries lacked labour (hence immigration), New Zealand lacks …

              ‘Necessity is the mother of invention’ and all that. It’s not the end of the world to work under constraints – even self-imposed ones, when they are imposed for good reason and with an eye to the future. Health and safety regulations are a ‘constraint’, labour laws are a ‘constraint’ – yet most developed economies have these self-imposed ‘constraints’. It makes those economies, and the people in them, envied by people in other economies.

              Short term thinking is just that. It doesn’t prepare you for the long haul. Countries are, presumably, concerned about the long haul – companies (or at least the capital upon which they depend), typically, less so. 

              • vto

                I don’t think the three of you will get much of an answer out mr queen street this late at night – he is a farmer after all. Though I never seen where that farm is..

              • queenstfarmer

                Having no land or oil is, usually, not by choice. Imposing self-inflicted taxes that harm the economy, is by choice.

                • McFlock

                  What about self0-imposed skill shortages caused by stuffing apprenticeships and burdening the educated with student loans that will be evadable, or more easily paid back, if you leave the country?

                • Draco T Bastard

                  The costs are there – it’s just that the idiots like you are trying to ignore them. That’s the whole point of the ETS – to put the costs on businesses that are presently avoiding them (economics calls it “externalities”) which means that the community will end up paying for them.

                  It’s completely insane to argue the non-existence of something that has been proven to exist.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Having no land or oil is, usually, not by choice. Imposing self-inflicted taxes that harm the economy, is by choice.

                  Short term pain for long term pain. Think about it.

                  Economic growth must be decoupled from carbon emissions.

                  Don’t keep putting your foot down on the pedal even as the cliff gets closer, faster. Get it?

                  • Bazar

                    No, its a case of short term pain WITH long term pain, or just long term pain. (thats assuming you believe carbon causes global warming)

                    Even if NZ was carbon neutral tomorrow onwards, we wouldn’t even affect the global carbon output beyond a statistical anomaly.

                    Racing to be so carbon friendly can have adverse results as well…
                    The kyoto treaty has shown such wonderful promise in getting industries to reduce commissions… of course a lot of those regulated industries just started outsourcing to china instead which has NO regulation on industries.

                    The result was more overall pollution due to the lower pollution standards/requirements in china.

            • AAMC 1.1.1.1.1.4

              This chart puts their investment in green tech into perspective.

              http://m.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/09/solyndra-vs-military-boondoggles

      • queenstfarmer 1.1.2

        Just making the point that an ETS won’t make much of a difference to the environment while the major (make that gargantuan) emitters are carrying on as usual. It will be negligble, if anything. That is a fact – nothing to do with mindsets.

        • Pascal's bookie 1.1.2.1

          Obviously what we need to do is break up all the big countries into little countries of around 4 million people each.

          Then no one will have to do anything.

          • queenstfarmer 1.1.2.1.1

            No-one has to do anything now.

            • Colonial Viper 1.1.2.1.1.1

              One reason being is people like you making excuses for NZ to stay timid at the back of the pack.

              Let’s show the world some clean green leadership mate.

            • bbfloyd 1.1.2.1.1.2

              if we don’t have to do anything now, then we have the ideal govt to achieve that… johnny sparkle and the bowlegged sisters quartet are experts at doing nothing….

              i have to assume you hate your children, and resent the fact that there will be a whole new generation following that… but don’t worry too much, because the “do nothing” approach will ensure that there may not be too many pesky descendents to follow……

              cockroaches, on the other hand, will become hugely successful…. warms the heart to think humanities legacy will be carried forward in such an efficient manner….

              as long as they keep the rats from the halls of power, then it will be great…..

            • Macro 1.1.2.1.1.3

              Again qsf you need to keep up with what is ACTUALLY happening:
              “New research, to be published in the journal Climatic Change in November, suggests humankind may have to remove carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere on a vast scale if emissions keep rising after 2020.”
              http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/20/us-carbon-climate-idUSTRE78J3IK20110920

    • mik e 1.2

      QSFChina’s New coal plants are more modern more efficient and are replacing outdated inefficient plants.China is putting huge money into modernizing its energy production .As well as there steel production adapting NZ pollution control technology in their steel plants.They are not standing still they Know what the customer wants and will move heaven and earth to get that customer. Pity our farming sector doesn’t take the same approach it usually takes our farmers 20 or 30 years to wake up before they do whats needed by then its to late China Germany etc will own all the farms.

  2. infused 2

    I’ll give a shit about an ETS in NZ when other countries that actually matter get behind it. NZ outputs %0.2 of all carbon world wide.

    That sums it up for me really.

    Lets kill our economy so we feel a little better inside.

    • Macro 2.1

      Your argument is analogous to a thug kicking someone who is down – I’ll stop kicking when someone else does! Bastard!

      • infused 2.1.1

        Yeah, no.

        You are trying to fix a problem that can’t be fixed until countries at the top of the chain do something. Until they do, it’s a waste of time, more so money.

        • Macro 2.1.1.1

          Didn’t think you had the moral capacity to understand what I was saying. Unfortunately I’m not mistaken. Your morality is solely based on the ten commandments written in the gospel of the “hidden hand”. Those who worship money will ultimately pay for it.
          When the seas are 1-2 m higher by the end of this century and ave global temps head even more higher because of a lack of will by current western govt’s I’m sure you grandchildren will bless you for it.

        • Macro 2.1.1.2

          So those who want to delay – are really asking for more of this!

    • Lanthanide 2.2

      Maybe having a local ETS will encourage innovation in technology here, which could be exported to other countries earning us huge revenue while also reducing their greenhouse gas output immensely?

      We should be at the forefront of agricultural research. Having an ETS that encourages green agricultural research seems like a good nudge in the right direction.

      • queenstfarmer 2.2.1

        The US has spent billions to encourage green technology, it has been a disaster. Would it be any different here?

        Research is happening and innovation will continue around the globe, and of course a breakthrough could happen here. NZ should do what it sensibly can. But I don’t see an ETS giving NZ any appreciable advantages, while potentially harming the entire economy for no sensible reason.

        • Macro 2.2.1.1

          “The US has spent billions to encourage green technology, it has been a disaster. Would it be any different here?”

          Well that’s your perception of reality – Others actually see it differently.

          As for the “disaster”. One solar company that pursued a non-silicon based pv solution that goes bust because the price of solar electricity falling is hardly a “disaster”. It’s what happens in the market place, or are you not aware of that?

          • queenstfarmer 2.2.1.1.1

            I wasn’t even thinking of the solar company scandal. The green jobs programme was a failure before that – here’s an article from no less than the New York Time from a month ago:

            Federal and state efforts to stimulate creation of green jobs have largely failed, government records show… “Companies and public policy officials really overestimated how much consumers care about energy efficiency,” said Sheeraz Haji, chief executive of the Cleantech Group, a market research firm…. “The demand’s just not there to take this to scale,” said Fred Lucero, project manager at Richmond BUILD…

            And if that’s what the New York Times is saying, you can imagine how much worse it really is.

            • Macro 2.2.1.1.1.1

              “scandal” Your words qsf. Not mine. So a company goes bankrupt. That’s a scandal?
              As for the burgeoning energy inefficiency of the USA … Well what do you expect with boneheads like the GOP putting their oar in every which way they can. With no legislation to either encourage or impel companies towards more efficient energy use – the practice will always be to use the least cost alternative – especially the alternatives like oil coal and gas which have largely externalised costs – Costs to be picked up by everyone else – like you and me.
              Now if you were to instance China as a country and an economy – you would find that that country is moving rapidly towards increasing energy efficiency. But that’s a MANAGED economy and that won’t do will it!

              • queenstfarmer

                So a company goes bankrupt. That’s a scandal?

                No – you need to read up. The scandal is the fact that the Govt loaned hundreds of millions of dollars with no apparent oversight or checks on what the company was doing with it, despite having Board representation. The FBI has been to executive’s homes. The President is severely embarrased and even Democratcs are bailing from this. It is a total scandal (soon to be something-gate, no doubt).

                • AAMC

                  “It is a total scandal”

                  I’ll post a comparison with the real scandal here, in case you didn’t see it above QSF

                  http://m.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/09/solyndra-vs-military-boondoggles

                • Macro

                  No qsf you need to keep up! And don’t believe everything you read on Right wing blog sites.
                  There are more politically inspired witch hunts in that god forsaken sick society called the USA than you can poke a stick at! I have not heard of one such “investigation” that has revealed anything of substance. Every “investigation” has ended up exonerating those under investigation. And in one such instance the instigators themselves are now under investigation for political interference. It’s McCarthyism all over again! This time instigated by the oil barons and the ultra right wing nutcases who will stoop to nothing in their efforts to avoid facing the obvious. – Western and Developed nations HAVE TO STOP BURNING FOSSIL FUELS.
                  Just because someone in the USA has the influence to instigate a FBI investigation does not make it a “scandal”. In many cases the scandal is that the investigation is initiated in the first place!

            • mik e 2.2.1.1.1.2

              The republicans pulled funding on R&D . R&D doesn’t give you immediate returns and rarely do the initial steps prove profitable especially in our instant reward society.MSM media is not interested right now in the US . Any left wing policy is put down. But when the Arab spring is over you can bet oil prices will sky rocket and green initiative will be back on the agenda.

        • MrSmith 2.2.1.2

          “The US has spent billions to encourage green technology, it has been a disaster. Would it be any different here?”

          Q/ST just making shit up won’t cut it, I couldn’t care less about the US but you will have to provide us with some facts, Billions, how many Q/ST? Disasters more than two please? Would it be any different here? I won’t even bother!

          The US position on climate change has been laughable but their politicians have a huge problem, in so far as half the country are still waiting for the second coming, plus there endless warmongering, we don’t have that excuse, so saying we can’t lead is just spin, you know it’s the party/Farmers line Q/St and you have swallowed it, but your not fooling anyone here except yourself.

          • queenstfarmer 2.2.1.2.1

            See my post above Mr Smith – linking to a New York Times article stating that “Federal and state efforts to stimulate creation of green jobs have largely failed”. And there are many, many more articles far more critical than that. Let me know when (if) you cease to be in denial.

            As for the money, this headline gives a clue:
            $38B loan program not giving much bang for buck – CBS News

            I like this quote:

            “There are good reasons to create green jobs, but they have more to do with green than with jobs,” Princeton University economics professor and former Federal Reserve vice chairman Alan Blinder has said.

            Sums it up well – the far-Left here (the Greens) are pretending that “green mandates” will effectively grow the economy. They won’t – the evidence is in.

            • MrSmith 2.2.1.2.1.1

              “Let me know when (if) you cease to be in denial.”

              Q/St from your link: said Sheeraz Haji, chief executive of the Cleantech Group, a market research firm. “People care about their wallet”

              The article in the NYT Q/st that’s if you read it, wasn’t nearly as negative as you make out either considering the US are in recession with unemployment over 10%, I haven’t got time to read the CBS link but here are some figures for you.

              The world economy last year worth US$61.96 trillion Q/St, Stern report estimates Climate change could cost between 5-20% so 3 to 12 trillon or simplified for you between three thousand billon and twenty thousand billon, makes your few billon look like small change Q/St, but you don’t care do you, because you will be dead soon, but we have a responsibility to the children and those that will live after we are long dead.

              • queenstfarmer

                You said I was “making shit up”, so I posted a NYT article confirming what I said, and confirming you are wrong. Pretty simple really.

                • mik e

                  Short term short sighted thinking .Just about every new technology we have ever used started with a lot of failure.Even right wing economists agree there is no low hanging fruit any more and it will take years of high spending R&D to make forward progress. National have cut R&D in this country and messed it around for cheap political gain.

            • Puddleglum 2.2.1.2.1.2

              Correct me if I’m wrong (please), but it looks to me that the ‘green stimulus’ was almost the direct opposite of a self-imposed constraint – what I was talking about in my responses to you up above.

              Penalising fossil fuel use is a different mechanism from simply putting aside large amounts of money for ‘green initiatives’.

              Notice that the reason, so far as I can tell, that the stimulus ‘flopped’ is that it remained cheaper to go for the fossil fuel alternatives – oil use was still too cheap, comparatively.

              Now, I’m no expert on the ETS – my gut is to go with a carbon tax (but I haven’t put the ‘brainpower’ – yet – into carefully thinking it through). But isn’t its supposed ‘mechanism’ precisely that it makes things more expensive for CO2/methane/etc. emitting industries?

              Has the US tried something like that to stimulate ‘green jobs’? I don’t think so.

              • queenstfarmer

                Yes there are many different “levers” and methods. Eg: Has the US tried something like that to stimulate ‘green jobs’? I don’t think so.

                They have. For example they were the first (I think?) to introduce their particular car emmission standards that penalised poor-mileage cars. Since then car efficiency has improved. The extent to which A led to B is something that I’m sure economists & politicians will argue about, although Obama recently lowered (or delayed) the latest round of standards, much to the annoyance of the environment lobby.

    • Blighty 2.3

      The EU has one as do many other countries and China is about to introduce one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax

  3. outofbed 3

    I thought we had one of the highest emission rates per capita in the world?
    Great if we had the lowest eh? I could kinda see lots of benefits to that. We cold run a 100% clean Green Campaign perhaps (might have to get the cow shit out of the rivers first though)

  4. Steve Wrathall 4

    Macro, re your YT video of “scientist” K Trenberth. This is the same Trenberth who in private admits “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t”.

    So when even the so-called experts on whose authority we are being bullied into putting the world on an energy diet, doubt their prophesies. I refuse to join you on your guilt-trip of anguish about rising emissions of a gas vital to life itself.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      This is the same Trenberth who in private admits…

      Link to a credible source (ie, not any of the denier sites which have been proven to be lying (all of them)).

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.2

      I can’t believe someone is still trolling this denialist garbage.
      This is what Trenberth was discussing.
      …sigh…

      • Macro 4.2.1

        Wrathall is in complete denial and will unfortunately remain so. Nothing anyone here, can say, or demonstrate, would alter his complete conviction and unwavering belief in his own brilliance and certainty. Frankly it’s a waste of space even replying to him – but your reference to the true matter in hand is valuable to the casual reader.

  5. Afewknowthetruth 5

    The acknowledged upper limit for maintenance of the climate stability that permits civilisation to continue to exist is 350ppm. (That figure may in fact be on the high side, since the historic norm that allowed agriculture to come into existence was around 280ppm.)

    We are currently at 390ppm, i.e. 40ppm above the ‘safe’ limit. When the leaves start to drop in the northern hemisphere the next surge in atmospheric CO2 will take place, taking us to around 396ppm early in 2012.

    There is considerable debate concerning the meltdown of the Arctic Sea in 2011. Although the extent is marginally above the all-time low recorded in 2007,

    http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

    the density of the ice is arguably somewhat lower than in 2007.

    The Sun seems to be finally coming out of the unusually long minunum in its cycle. Although relatively tiny, the increase in activity will be more ‘grist to the mill’.

    Acidification and the general assault on the oceans by fishing and petroleum interests are forecast to generate largely dead oceans within two decades.

    Peak Oil occurred around 2005-2006, and we are now in the early stages of collapse of present economic arrangements. The collapse will gather speed between 2012 and 2015, as we slide down the oil depletion curve, and present economic arrangments will be pretty much ‘all over’ by 2020.

    The decrease in Global Dimming that will accompany delcining industrial activity will undoubtedly have a dramatic effect on insolation and will cause a surge in positive feedbacks.

    The big unknowns are how much longer the European banksters can hold their Ponzi scheme together and how much longer the US can continue to function (with the vast majority of states and municipalities now insolvent and incapable of carrying out even basic maintenance on roads and bridges). And then there is Texas, of course, which is currently experiencing environmental meltdown.

    http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/

    ETS is delusional nonsense, completely disconected from reality. However, it will make some short term profits for a few banksters before everything collapses.

  6. ETS is delusional nonsense, completely disconected from reality. However, it will make some short term profits for a few banksters before everything collapses.

    Yes, that’s my worry. I remember listening to the radio back in the 90s (late at night, driving home from work) and the neoliberals were the ones pushing for a CO2 market (ETS). That was hotly contested by those who wanted either a carbon tax or, simply, agreed planned reduction in oil use – i.e., more direct regulation.

    Now, the ETS seems to be defended by the same people (or at least political positions) that argued against such schemes previously. Staunch right wingers, meanwhile, seem to be talking about doing nothing (so they’ve moved position, too). The political sand has shifted in a mere 10 or 15 years.

    I’m going to have to get on top of the history and details of all of this. 

  7. grumpy 7

    If NZ go it alone with an ETS (without the major polluters China, Russia India etc), we will be both paying the ETS AND paying to mitigate the effects flowing on from the major polluters.

    In effect paying at least twice!!!

    • thejackal 7.1

      And if we don’t have an ETS and China, Russia and India etc don’t either, we will still have to pay the mitigating costs from the effects flowing on from the major polluters. It will be normal taxpayers meeting those costs instead of the industries creating pollution.

      We wont be able to take advantage of our forests and already strong renewable energy sector from hydro and trade with the countries that are involved. Having a strong ETS means we protect our environment and have a stronger trading position if we meet our quotas within the first commitment period 2008 to 2012 and beyond.

      So either the taxpayer and environment pay or we have an effective ETS and ensure our emissions are reduced and all make money at the same time. I really fail to see any relevant argument for not having an ETS.

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    To Protect and Serve: When the Prime Minister finds herself enmeshed in the coils of a full-blown political scandal, her colleagues and party comrades have only one priority: to release her as swiftly – and with as little lasting injury – as possible. Is this what Jacinda Ardern’s colleagues and ...
    10 hours ago
  • The rot at the top.
    When military leaders cover up and lie to elected civilian authorities, the foundation of democratic civil-military relations is undermined because it is those authorities who are entrusted to hold the military accountable to the public that they mutually serve. But this is only true if civilian political authorities take their ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    11 hours ago
  • Challenging the voting age in court
    The Make It 16 campaign to lower the voting age is launching this afternoon, and they have already announced plans to challenge the law in court:The campaign, named "Make it 16" will launch at Parliament on Friday, with plans to take their case to the High Court, testing the rights ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    11 hours ago
  • Israel’s elections herald a long siesta
    by Daphna Whitmore The long years of Netanyahu’s reign are drawing to an end. For years he has epitomized reactionary zionism as he oversaw hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers seize land in the West Bank. There are now 700,000 settlers, putting an end to the myth that Israel was ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    12 hours ago
  • Petrol companies promise prices will come back down once peace is restored to the Middle East
    BP, Z and Mobil all insist that petrol price hikes are temporary, “in a very literal sense.” The nation’s major petrol providers are trying to allay customer fears over prices, promising that they’ll move to lower them again “immediately” when the Middle East is returned to its formerly peaceful state. ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 day ago
  • All Blacks unveil boat for Rugby World Cup 2019
    South African coach Rassie Erasmus says he has no idea what they’re going to do about the boat. In a highly anticipated press conference this afternoon, All Blacks coach Steve Hansen has finally unveiled the team’s boat for its Rugby World Cup 2019 campaign. In a press conference that went ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 day ago
  • An increasingly shoddy coverup
    The Operation Burnham inquiry continued to question senior NZDF staff today, and their shoddy coverup over their knowledge of civilian casualties continue to fall apart. If you recall, first, we were asked to believe that it was all a series of "mistakes and errors": a senior officer with multiple degrees ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • If we are to avoid making the earth uninhabitable, we need to rapidly decarbonise our civilisation, and cut emissions to zero as quickly as possible. This seems like an impossible task, but its not. Pushing hard on a few technologies and trends will let us halve emissions in a decade:Greenhouse ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • A further attack on transparency
    The Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill (No 2) had part of its committee stage yesterday. its a generally tedious bill about the nitty-gritty of local government reorganisation. But it includes a clause making the Local Government Commission subject to the Ombudsmen Act, and hence the OIA. Great! Except of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • Ihumātao and Treaty settlements
    Yesterday Ihumātao's mana whenua reached a consensus that they would like their land back, and asked the government to negotiate with Fletcher's for its return. The government's response? Try and undermine that consensus, while talking about how doing anything would undermine existing Treaty settlements. The first is just more bad ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Protecting our history
    Its Suffrage Day, the 126th anniversary of women winning the right to vote (but not stand in elections) in New Zealand. And to celebrate, the government has bought Kate Sheppard's house in Christchurch:The government has bought Kate Sheppard's former home in Christchurch for more than $4 million. The Ilam villa ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Climate Change: Ostracising the coal-burners
    The UN climate summit is happening in new York next week, and unlike previous years, coal-burners and denier-states are not being invited to speak:Leading economies such as Japan and Australia will not be invited to speak at next week’s crunch UN climate change summit, as their continued support for coal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Jojo Tamihere Salutes Herr Goff.
    Get Back Jojo! The elation in Mayor Phil Goff’s camp may be easily imagined as they watched social media light up in indignation at challenger John Tamihere’s "Sieg Heil to that" quip. Just when JT’s notoriously right-wing, sexist and homophobic stains were beginning to fade back into his ‘colourful’ past, ...
    2 days ago
  • Hard News: A fun but flawed weed documentary
    Patrick Gower is good value when he's high. Not that I've ever, you know, got stoned with him. But in the second part of his documentary Patrick Gower on Weed, he does what you'd expect in a modern weed documentary and immerses himself – first with a doctor, then a ...
    2 days ago
  • Candidate Survey: Western Bay of Plenty – Local Body Elections 2019
    We surveyed candidates on their attitudes to issues facing the Western Bay Region, find out what they think: “Closing the Gap” Tauranga, one of the area groups of Income Equality Aotearoa NZ Inc., has surveyed all candidates in the three local body elections to discover attitudes to some basic issues ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 days ago
  • Project Nettie calls on scientists to defend biology
    Please spread widely, and sign, to support science and rationalism over the new irrationalism sweeping universities and institutions.  PROJECT NETTIE Sexual reproduction, the generation of offspring by fusion of genetic material from two different individuals, evolved over 1 billion years ago. It is the reproductive strategy of all higher animals ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • I’m glad I don’t live in Auckland
    Just when I was thinking that Palmerston North's mayoral race (which includes a convicted child molester / public wanker and a convicted child beater) was the worst in the country, Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere opened his mouth:Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere is being slammed for using the words "sieg ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Index of Power Update, 2018-19: China #2
    We reprint below an article from the excellent website the Economics of Imperialism by Tony Norfield This is an update of the statistics for my Index of Power, using data for 2018-19 and discussing what a country’s ranking reflects. The major change is that China’s rank has shifted up and ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • Climate Change: A history lesson
    Why is New Zealand climate change policy so crap? The Herald this morning has a long article on the twists and turns of climate change policy in New Zealand [paywalled / depaywall script], which shows where we've been. The short version is that the government first began worrying about this ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • What the All Blacks Mean to Us
    The All Blacks have been, for more than a century, arguably the most successful International sports team in the world. But they are more than that; even for those Kiwis who are immune to the charms of rugby (and there are more than a few), the All Blacks are ambassadors ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    3 days ago
  • No one is born into the wrong body
    A short and incredibly powerful speech from a young lesbian woman. No one is born in the wrong body. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    3 days ago
  • Contempt
    Back in June, the UK Court of Appeal ruled that that country's continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia were unlawful. So you'd expect that the UK government stopped approving them, right?Of course not:The government has apologised for breaching a court ruling against the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Covering up the cover-up
    Yesterday NZDF officials were put on the stand about the lies they had told over Operation Burnham, making implausible claims that it was all a big mistake. But along the way, we learned they had already been put on the spot about it by a previous Defence Minister, who had ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Not as important as they think they are
    Farmers have been whining a lot lately, about the methane targets in the Zero Carbon Bill, about Canterbury's proposed nitrogen limits, and about the government's new proposals to stop them from shitting in our lakes and rivers. These policies are "throwing farmers under the tractor", they will force farmers off ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Behind Every Good Woman Should Stand – Another Good Woman.
    Alone, Alone, All, All, Alone: To argue that the Prime Minister is the victim of her advisers’ failure to keep her informed may offer Jacinda some measure of exoneration – but only at the cost of casting her as a hopeless political ingénue. A star-dusted muppet, whose only purpose is to ...
    4 days ago
  • Poor quality, poorly educated kiddie ‘Journalists’ spreading fake news
    In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    4 days ago
  • Chris Trotter on the BFD
    I don't want to give pblicity to certain parts of the internet that are better left to fester in their own irrelevance (I know, a bit like this place) but the listing of Chris Trotter as a 'author' on Cameron Slater's spinoff website, the BFD requires some explanation.Now, I don't ...
    4 days ago
  • Sex is not a spectrum
    The text below is a Twitter thread by Heather Heying that explains the essence of sexual reproduction and it long evolutionary history. She is an evolutionary biologist and a “professor-in-exile” after she and her husband, Bret Weinstein, stood up to supporters of an enforced “Day of Absence” for white staff and teachers ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change: Trees, aviation, and offsets
    With crunch time for new Zealand climate policy approaching, most of the New Zealand media have got on board with a global reporting effort to cover the issue. There's one strand of stories today about polling and what it shows about changing public attitudes to the crisis, but the strand ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Pissing-Off The Israelis Is A High-Risk Strategy.
    Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...
    4 days ago
  • Something to go to in Wellington
    Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • A founding member responds to Peace Action Wellington
    by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above  the beaches.  In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • “Mistakes and errors”
    Current and former NZDF top brass are being publicly grilled this week by the hit and run inquiry over their public responses to allegations of civilian casualties. Previously, they've claimed there were no casualties, a position which led them to lie to Ministers and to the public. Now, they're saying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • “Homosexuality is same-sex attraction and relationships, not heterosexuals with delusions of gende...
    by Rafael D. Quiles (gender-critical gay man from Puerto Rico) The writing on the wall is right in people’s faces and people just don’t see it or don’t want to. What could actually possess a heterosexual male to want to feminize himself and claim that he is a lesbian? Because ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    5 days ago
  • Trump: “Where’s my favourite dictator?”
    From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...
    5 days ago
  • Magdalen Burns, 1983-2019, fighter for women’s liberation
    by the Redline blog collective At Redline we are very saddened to hear of the death of Magdalen Burns who passed away on the morning of Friday, September 13 (British time). Magdalen was a great fighter for the rights of women in general and lesbian women in particular, a defender ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    6 days ago
  • Parliament and the Executive
    The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    7 days ago
  • The Abigail Article; Martyn Bradbury’s Article, and My Response
    . . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    7 days ago
  • Police will have to wear silly Buckingham Palace hats from now on, says Police Minister
    Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • A sensible crackdown
    The government has released its Arms Legislation Bill, containing the second tranche of changes to gun laws following the March 15 massacre. And it all looks quite sensible: a national gun register, higher penalties for illegal possession and dealing, tighter restrictions on arms dealers and shooting clubs, and a shorter ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • California bans private prisons
    Private prisons are a stain on humanity. Prison operators explicitly profit from human misery, then lobby for longer prisons terms so they can keep on profiting. And in the US, prison companies run not only local and state prisons, but also Donald Trump's immigration concentration camps. Faced with this moral ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Why PPPs are a bad idea
    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    1 week ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    1 week ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    1 week ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    1 week ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

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