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8:13 pm, October 9th, 2014 - 63 comments
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“It all depends on the question you ask” – this was John Key’s response to a question as to whether he had concerns about the SAS identifying air-strike targets that might kill civilians.
If you ask whether they are comfortable with identifying targets people might not be happy with that, but if you ask them whether they think innocent people being beheaded is right, people would say no.
I’ve no doubt Curia will be in the field as we speak asking questions to find out how to make New Zealanders comfortable with SAS identifying targets.
An eye for an eye is not going to stop this war. Pollsters don’t do statesmanship; and nor do poll-driven politicians. Somebody else picks up the pieces.
Yep – another widely reported atrocity, and as a result, more people will die.
Unfortunately, it will mostly be the wrong ones, and our ‘wise’ leaders, having ignored many other relevant atrocities because they did not suit the agenda, will have seeped our hands in the blood.
Okay. Point one. The ISIS guys are basically criminals – nothing more and nothing less. Why elevate them to being something other than that?
Point two. All this shit about air strikes and what-not has no end point; no plan that points to achieving peace.
Point three (made before). When you encourage a wipe out legitimate political opposition over decades through the deliberate traumatising of populations (ie, put in ‘our’ dictator and supply the means to establish a brutal ‘police state’)… then stack drones and ‘total domination’ invasion scenarios on top of that when ‘our’ guys over step the mark… well, seriously, what the fuck is to be expected?
But it is so good for munitions makers and their shareholders /sarc
Govts have to elevate ISIS to the level of a major military and moral threat, or they wouldn’t be able to justify the multi-billion dollar, multi-year western waged war that is now being launched.
It also saves US embarrassment trying to justify the results of the last 10 years of training and US$25B spent on the Iraqi Army.
I’m picking a raid on the Mosque in Hamilton as a false flag to get us to war!
“But it is so good for munitions makers and their shareholders /sarc”
EXACTLY You don’t make bombs and bullets just to “sit on shelves”
Two things happen
If you can’t sell and use you get overstocked
There is no profit in over stocked goods sitting on shelves.
Have you noticed that it is always rightwing fucking governments who are all for letting a few bangers off and although they are always crying “austerity” for some, always have the money for the odd bomb or two.
I wonder how much the fucking spiv expects us to pay to support his mates in the White House , now he says he might/will send support troops.
I can’t remember where, but I read ISIS were basically a social welfare organisation until the Iraqi Security Forces captured and tortured one of their leaders. Then all hell broke loose. Anyone know anything about that?
There was an interesting letter in the Bahrain published Gulf Daily News that picked up the theme of your first point. It referred back to ant-terrorist doctrine of the 60s, 70s & 80s.
3 points made in the letter I found interesting:
“The key insight was this: Terrorist movements always want you to over-react, so don’t do it. Terrorists usually lack the popular support to overpower their opponent by force, so they employ a kind of political jiu-jitsu: they try to use the adversary’s own strength against him. Most domestic terrorism, and almost all international terrorism, is aimed at provoking a big, stupid, self-defeating response from the target government.”
“Rule one in the old anti-terrorism doctrine was don’t over-react and it still applies. That means as little bombing as possible, and only of strictly military targets. Preferably, it would mean no bombing at all except in specific areas where IS troops are on the offensive.
It means not letting yourself be lured into more extreme action by the public beheading of innocent hostages and the other atrocities that IS stages to attract a certain kind of recruit. Indeed, it means not launching a major ground offensive against IS (for which the troops are not available anyway), and waiting for events to take their course within the ‘Islamic State’.”
“Regimes as radical and violent as this one rarely survive for long.
The revolution will eat its children, as so many have before, and it will happen a lot more quickly if they don’t have a huge foreign military threat to hold them together.”
Valid poll question:
Do you approve of the SAS helping the USA to kill people if it means we can have a few more years of cheap oil?
I’m all for sending Key and his gang of 60 off to war. They can leave right now.
He sends his son and daughter first.
SO the economy is tanking and these idiots have one solution “war economy”. God Bless these United States Of New Zealand.
Funny one song from the 80’s seems to be on constant repeat. Thethe Sweet bird of truth. Sorry younger ones very 80’s.
War is not the only thing western countries are doing to boost the all important GDP measure. Including prostitution and drug dealing as legitimate economic activities included in GDP are other steps being taken to boost “growth.”
Yes, I saw that a few weeks ago and thought, “These politicians are really scraping the bottom of the barrel manipulating statistics to try to convince us the economy is not collapsing.”
Next step: Include political bribes as part of GDP. Those numbers should be a lot more accurate than the estimates for illegal prostitution and drugs.
And yet marijuana still remains illegal…
If someone goes and fights or offers medical support in the Kurdish Autonomous Areas, will they be treated as a terrorist by this government?
Such volunteers are OK while the Kurds are considered friendly and allies. But in a couple of years time when that changes and they are the new bad guys, you’re fucked.
@ Adam (6.0)
It depends who your Daddy is.
There is only one song, in my head lately, still going strong to stir the best emotions for parallels to todays radically right amalgamated corporation called
…The National Party.
and adam that was far too light, try War Pigs by Sabath if you want to get heavy on war 🙂
try a little
Dogs of War by Pink Floyd
Too Many Puppies.
So, what do we do about ISIS murdering all these people then?
You get the US and their allies to continue to provide them with money, weapons and training.
And you get the US to keep supporting the Shia government in Baghdad which has spent the last 5 years marginalising and fucking off Sunni communities. So that these communities now prefer to have ISIS running things than the Iraqi Government in Baghdad.
What are you going to do about that?
BTW your Star Trek namesake “Picard” would probably be asking better questions than you are.
To be more precise – you keep feeding the parts of ISIS attacking Assad with money and weapons, while trying to bomb the parts of ISIS taking ground in Iraq and acting against Kurds.
Stupid yeah, but that’s the kind of US strategic thinking that has brought us to this point.
*cough* immoral but not stupid if you are involved in an industry profiting from such behaviour *cough*
Hmmmmm, yes. America does seem to have its head up its backside over that little conundrum. That’s what happens when everything you do is about money.
John Stewart did a very good bit on the hypocrisy of the US government funding everyone.
“BTW your Star Trek namesake “Picard” would probably be asking better questions than you are.”
Indeed and each time 101 posts,
Troll elsewhere Weka. Not my fault you cannot back up what you say.
Ooh look the trole calls someone he can’t debate with a trole.
My record in ts stands for how I debate, including backing up statements I make (which I did in the other thread and which you continue to ignore). You are just establishing your record, which so far shows you to not be very good at debating.
Picard was no James, T, small pause Kirk. There is only one Star Trek, true, star trek originals will never bare their souls for another version, Klingon spinoff, Romulan subplot or even Q’s trickery.
Lol. I was never much of a Kirk fan. Too much of a dumb jock for my liking. Not a thinking man.
Then you must not have rushed home from school for every episode when it first aired on NZ TV. It looked so realistic as a kid, later in life you look at it, fake as, but still I watch it now and enjoy each one, even forbidden planet and Robbie the Robot.
I may not have even been alive when it first aired in NZ.
When was that?
And I did enjoy it as a kid, but I was never a fan of Kirk. More a Spock fan.
Meh. Fuck Star Trek. If you want some kick ass get a woman on the job.
The same as what we do about those Mexicans murdering all those people . Nothing.
ISIS are a product of generations of regional religious and ethnic hatreds worsened by years of poorly judged Western interference. What makes you think that Key sticking his nose in it will help? NZ should stay out of it, except for providing humanitarian assistance.
@ cogito “What makes you think that Key sticking his nose in it will help?”
It depends on your goals. If your goal is to be best buddies with the Imperial Empire of America, it will be very helpful.
Oh yes, Key still owes the President for that round of golf…. and for stuffing up the raid on Dotcom, and for putting a halt (if he did) on the NSA tap on the Southern Cross cable…. He’s got some ground to make up….
Key’s proving his loyalty to his handlers… as is Obama.
“So, what do we do about ISIS murdering all these people then?”
The same when the yanks murder Pakistani children with their Drones, or the Jews murdering children in the that concentration camp called Gaza.
Expect to see increased reports of NZ people “linked” to people “potentially linked” to terrorism.
Expect to see increased blogging by WO & Farrar on reasons why we need to intervene etc.
WO already doing his bit to promote prejudice in NZ, todays “DailyDumbDown” has a picture on a persons car window which is clearly a Sikh figure with a spear, but because it looks slightly “Arabic” with a dark man, long beard, turban, and a spear he put the image up stating “pretty overt”.
There has already been a massive Western media turn around to viewing PKK (designated terrorist group in West and NZ) as heroes now, along with child soldiers etc.
If we think ISIS are bad, then what will arise from us getting involved in bombing and more war in 10 years time will be 1000x worse.
I hear you DD, Healthy scepticism is required with the media today.
I think I just had an epiphany, I think he’s asking to send troops to save that village on TV and front line of the invading Islamic state. That’s what I thought was happening. He’s not sending us to join the global war on freaking bullshit terrorism is he.
OH FFS please respond it’s fucking not is it!!!!
In my opinion contrary to most here, I welcome our limited as it Is, involvement.
Wrong or right, that many of us, if we new the horrors and atrocities the innocent people there have and are facing imminently, would want to assist, knowing what was about to happen,
But sitting far away and having ideologies, it’s a case of it’s right but not john Key, or other frankly pointless excuses in the face of babies, kids, women, men and anything else in the path of IS being murdered, raped beaten, sold, tortured, beheaded. etc.
The question becomes, should we, and why don’t they, just like the united nations.
From a common sense point of view isn’t just going in and doing whatever we can to help just the right thing to do to a human, or anything else that thinks, lives, breathes, laughs, cry’s, loves, and dies if we all stand around with our ideological hands in our pockets.
Sometimes I think the old adage of if you cannot control the outcome don’t worry about it, focus on what you can control. It’s about time we led, not asked to join.
To lead requires a country brave enough to go to an atoll and fight the French but to suffer a bombing, to say no to nuclear warships and weapons. That also requires that when needed, we have the leadership to say in this case we know there is a wrong happening, we are going to help. Let the other countries figure out what they are up to that’s their problem.
Sorry big opinion but I had to get my side across, I know there are probably a lot of peace loving hippies with big bags of weed going WTF? War! Outrageous. Ethel, get me crash helmet, and protest sign out of the closet. That’s Richard fella’s a War Pig.
Why don’t we send the SAS to stop the atrocities committed by the police in Rio de Janeiro? Apart from the beheadings, they do everything else you’ve mentioned.
Why aren’t we helping stop the violence in Mexico and Colombia? Why didn’t we intervene in Sri Lanka against the torturers and murderers of the Tamil population? Why wasn’t the SAS dropped in the Negev to defend Gazan schools and hospitals?
Sorry Richard, but I’m not like Pavlov’s dog to get excited every time Uncle Sam rings a bell. Not even one of Skinner’s pigeons.
Because why they havn’t done this or that, why did they do this and that is another question that should be separate from the current problem.
Fair enough criticising the USA, they cause most of the bloody conflict.
However that’s some issue that should be explored under a different context.
here I’m focused on saving these lives, not solving the USA’s lack of accountability.
Nope. It’s actually the exact opposite. We really need them to sort their own shit out and not for us to keep going in there pretending to be Knights on White Horses. By going in fixing things as we see it we’re preventing their own development and encouraging even more of the terrorism and bloodshed as more people there try to force things back the way they were before Western Intervention.
3 tries to print that, could not edit it, had to delete it 3 times edit and paste and send again ED.
The USA is doing all it can to make the bloodthirsty visions of biblical prophets come to pass
Intervening is not going to stop those horrors Richard… its just going to lead to the next cycle of sectarian violence and next round of terrorist groups that the West and Gulf States will fund in power plays against each other.
Western intervention into Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and now Syria has never been about Humanitarian needs. If military interventions were about saving people and humanity we would be intervening right now in West Africa with Ebola – a real threat, which poses a real and imminent threat to the whole world including the west.
Everything the West touches with its intervening hand turns to shit. Show me one large scale military intervention that hasn’t led to mass civilian casualties, sectarian violence, and more guns, money, power in the hands of terrorists?
@13, did you read it, the crux is lets stop making any excuses eh?
There are a million reasons not to go. But one reason we must.
And the one reason is a load of bollocks.
Perhaps a tactic would be to send in transports to evacuate, let them approach with no people there, and the Turkish army in tanks on the hill passively doing squat. Dumb Isis are bound to march on? Heading into Turkey might be bad for them.
Just an idea don’t shoot the turkey.
Turkey hates the Kurds almost as much as they hate the Armenians. The Turkish tanks are there to stop Kurds seeking refuge in Turkey.
Are the kurds the arabs versions of gippsies or something. FFS poor buggers. All the more reason to rescue them and let Turkey face ISIS.
Bedouin. The Kurds are territorial.
I.S.I.L. is like a banker holding your homes debt.Who is the winner,your debt.
How is the Islamic state whatever they are now, linked to my mortgage i presume you imply, or any other debt I suppose.
Arabs? Prime lenders? I would not think it’s anything the world could not soak up like a big sell on the currency markets, or whatever else the pro Islamic fronts supporters try.
I spoke yesterday at a small meeting at a Marae with a gentleman who told me his two sons already had their marching orders. They had left last Saturday. He told me they were off to Australia first and Singapore next. What came next they didn’t tell him but it was clear he was extremely worried about his sons ending up in Iraq/Syria
I would hate it if my son were going off to this war…it is such a mess of Western intervention, greed for oil , strategic chess playing colonialism, Islamic fundamentalism in retaliation…..i cant pretend to understand it but some of the links below show just how perfidious this war is!
The only course of action imo is to expose the causes and refuse to fight in it…(unless your country is directly threatened or in support of a UN Peace mandate to limit violence) ….to support it is to give it oxygen and waste young men’s lives to no good purpose
bahahaha – Farrar’s living in your head, rent free.
He doesn’t even have to say or do anything, and you get hot under the collar about him, all by yourself…
RRM: I know. I know.
You know: “The confusion created when one’s mind overrides the body’s basic desire to choke the living daylights out of some jerk who desperately deserves it.”