Coming Down To Beijing

85 comments on “Coming Down To Beijing ”

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1. One Anonymous Bloke 1

   19 April 2016 at 7:35 pm

   Our glorious leader cannot address the PRC’s human rights issues, because (according to the NZ Law Society) his government has done so much to undermine them.

   Grass mud horse covering the centre.
2. Smilin 2

   19 April 2016 at 7:38 pm

   Where did we go wrong ?Ever borrowed money and didnt read the contract ?then you know the answer
   Really Key should know better than anyone you dont get something for nothing especially if they have 1.5 billion people and you are running out of room to run your cows
   • Colonial Viper 2.1

     19 April 2016 at 9:03 pm

     NZ already gifted China all its milk processing, dairying technologies and dairy herd know how.

     The Chinese say: xie xie!
     • Pat 2.1.1

       19 April 2016 at 9:15 pm

       lol…well then, at least they are polite
     • leftie 2.1.2

       20 April 2016 at 12:40 am

       Colonial Viper, don’t forget thousands of cows, precious farm land and dairy gene stock as well. And NZ didn’t do it, John key’s government did all of that. key gifted this country’s core business to its competitor, and it appeared Fed. farmers were quite happy about that then, weren’t they?
       • Pat 2.1.2.1

         20 April 2016 at 12:50 am

         we did the same with kiwifruit to Chile….it is not a new failing
         • leftie 2.1.2.1.1

           20 April 2016 at 11:43 am

           Yes Pat, we shouldn’t forget about that either. Under Labour NZ had extremely strict biosecurity laws, the importation of kiwifruit pollen for example, was not allowed. NZ’s biosecurity laws were greatly weakened after National came to power. John key’s government allowed the importation of Kiwifruit pollen from China and Chile. The pollen was diseased. Male Kiwifruit plants require a lot of tending, the pollen was to cut down that time and work.

           At the time the growers were happy about taking the risk of importing pollen, they thought it would save them time and money. In the end it decimated the industry, and it most certainly leveled the playing field from the other countries perspective, as NZ could no longer claim that our kiwifruit came from a disease free industry.

           Expect the same to happen with NZ’s pork industry after they lost their fight against the National government to stop imported pork from countries where the industry is diseased after National got rid of NZ’s “risk management strategy.” NZ was the only country in the world to have this system for all imported pork to be quarantined and heat-treated, to get rid of the PRRS virus.

           Needless to say the NZ pork industry board are not happy at all.
       • Colonial Viper 2.1.2.2

         20 April 2016 at 1:00 am

         Key gifted?

         You mean Kiwis sold private assets that they privately owned overseas. Would you have stopped it? Would a Labour Govt under Cunliffe have stopped it?
         • leftie 2.1.2.2.1

           20 April 2016 at 11:04 am

           Example, Key even offered the Crafar farms in individual lots to China, but refused to do so for Kiwis. David Cunliffe is no longer Labour’s leader. Sad but true, but I am pleased with Andrew Little.
           • Doogs 2.1.2.2.1.1

             20 April 2016 at 11:29 am

             I am NOT happy with Little. He is a grey man with no stuffing. Labour passed up a wonderful opportunity with David Cunliffe. He has 3 times the intellect of Key, and 10 times the brain power of the rest of Kim John Il’s government combined. Labour chose Little in a moment of desperation. Why they didn’t like Cunliffe is historical and murky, but what the hell was wrong with Annette King? She has more fire in her belly than most of the rest of the caucus. Even Robertson or Parker would have been better than Little.

             Dear, friendly Andrew says some good things, but just saying them isn’t enough. You have to be convincing, you have to eulogise, you have to have some charisma along the way. Key has the kind of charisma that comes from being dismissive, mouthing platitudes, doing dumb-fuck stuff with radio jocks, etc., etc. He is a hateful, nasty, mean, self-serving, unsympathetic and totally unpleasant individual.

             We need attractive, charismatic, larger than life leadership on the left. Using the country’s resources for the best for everyone and caring for the citizenry is the ONLY way to go.

             Is this too much to ask?

             Is there someone out there?

             Please . . . .
             • leftie …

               20 April 2016 at 12:11 pm

               You are entitled to your opinion, but personally, I have had it with that so called shallow “attractive and charismatic” bull. John key was touted as such by the media, and he is, including what you have described, a traitor who has sold us out. Look at where “attractive and charismatic” has got us. No thanks. I don’t want a lying showman and a sleazy used car trader.
               I want someone like Andrew Little and the team he has with him.
               • Doogs …

                 22 April 2016 at 7:59 am

                 Missed the point completely.

                 I want the message that is being given, I want the ideas Labour is currently espousing, I want the people-friendly policies I hear – but I want them delivered with resounding panache.

                 “Attractive and charismatic” alone never cuts the mustard. I thought you might figure that. I also thought you might understand that I was damning that very thing with my description of Key, the hollow man – burnished metal shell with nothing behind it.

                 So your shallow interpretation of what I said is way off the mark.
           • Colonial Viper 2.1.2.2.1.2

             20 April 2016 at 11:30 am

             You believe Andrew Little as PM would have intervened in the OIO process and canned the sale of the farms to Shanghai Pengxin then?

             And of all large farm sales to the Chinese?
             • leftie …

               20 April 2016 at 12:00 pm

               The OIO has become a farce and a joke under the National government. I cannot speculate or presume on what might or might not happen when the government changes, but didn’t Labour’s bill, designed to put the brakes on overseas applications to buy rural land by way of ministerial discretion, get defeated by one vote back in 2015?
               • Colonial Viper …

                 20 April 2016 at 12:20 pm

                 So Labour would at least slow down the sale of large farms to the Chinese, compared to what Key has been doing?
                 • leftie …

                   20 April 2016 at 12:47 pm

                   I cannot speculate or presume on what might or might not happen when the government changes Colonial Viper.
3. CoroDale 3

   19 April 2016 at 8:33 pm

   “Free Tibet!”, but careful about drinking your Green tea 😉
4. whateva next? 4

   19 April 2016 at 8:38 pm

   Did I hear Key try to persuade US to sign the TPPA by saying if they don’t get in quick the Chinese will fill the void? I wonder what China thought of that. We call that “splitting” in my business.
5. Penny Bright 5

   19 April 2016 at 8:50 pm

   Was there any discussion of New Zealand ‘foreign trusts’ between NZ Prime Minister John Key and any Chinese people (particularly of the very wealthy variety) during this visit – perchance?

   Penny Bright
   2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate.
6. Colonial Viper 6

   19 April 2016 at 8:52 pm

   In the next 10 to 20 years China will become the pre-eminent power in the Pacific. As a small nation, NZ needs to position itself very carefully vis a vis the PRC and the USA (and Russia) in order to secure the best possible future for Kiwis along the Pacific Rim.

   Our longstanding and historical ties to each of these countries need to be nurtured and managed in our long term best interests.
   • fender 6.1

     19 April 2016 at 9:00 pm

     Apologies in advance mate (I’ve been especially cranky today).

     But did you forget to state that Labour shouldn’t have any involvement in these delicate issues? 😉
     • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

       19 April 2016 at 9:08 pm

       Ha!!!
   • greywarbler 6.2

     20 April 2016 at 11:39 am

     Sounds good CV really intelligent and far-seeing actually. But who fits those adjectives?
     The best strategic planning may come from people sitting in a plain little room with the minimum of requirements, mugs tea and coffee bags and crackers and cheese for nourishment. The expectations of these neo libs in power is of glossiness and luxury and high standards of everything for themselves. That dulls the mind I think.

     I remember reading that Sam Walton of Wal-Mart started out operating from rather bare rooms above a High Street shop. He plotted his moves with people who were not well paid but fired with his ideas and the ambition to make money and build a chain of successful shops.

     Change the ambitions, hire the people fired with ideas and practical ways to achieve them, we could succeed as a country. Thinking our way to stay afloat in the ever-broiling sea of politics, using our knowledge of people, politics, trading groups. At present I see us as a dingy dinghy connected to large entities by a frayed rope, and with no steering even if we had a compass.
     • Colonial Viper 6.2.1

       20 April 2016 at 12:32 pm

       Hi GW. This is exactly the way I have started thinking about things. The more the upper hierarchy hire stagnant yes men yes women group-thinkers, the more innovative and motivated talent is left around on the sidelines just waiting to jump into action.
7. fender 7

   19 April 2016 at 8:53 pm

   Trading human lives for an FTA “upgrade” is bread and butter stuff for any smiling assassin.

   The really sad and disgusting reality is that many National followers will be salivating at the prospect of Key helping to end some more lives.
   • Colonial Viper 7.1

     19 April 2016 at 9:00 pm

     Wasn’t it Helen Clark, current head of the UNDP, who proudly signed the FTA with China?
     • fender 7.1.1

       19 April 2016 at 9:05 pm

       That’s better, I knew you had it in ya!

       Let it all out mate. Don’t want to get an ulcer or anything.
       • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1

         19 April 2016 at 9:26 pm

         The trick is to get rid of all cognitive dissonance from your political life
         • fender 7.1.1.1.1

           19 April 2016 at 9:49 pm

           Well I hope that doesn’t mean you will be voting National in future.

           You were one of the commenters that kept me coming back when I first stumbled upon this site. Would be sad to lose you to the “safe pair of (filthy) hands”. 😉
           • Leftie 7.1.1.1.1.1

             19 April 2016 at 10:14 pm

             Too late Fender. Colonial Viper is very blue these days.
             • fender …

               19 April 2016 at 10:52 pm

               Associate Minister for Climate Change Issues cuddling up to Bennett.

               Oh the irony. 😈
               • Colonial Viper …

                 20 April 2016 at 1:04 am

                 Leftie represents the stubborn FPPness of some Labour Loyalists these days. Still stuck in the old fashioned two party duality of Labour vs National.

                 Leftie also forgets to mention that it is Labour that wears a distinct shade of light blue nowadays, and has for a long time.
                 • Doogs …

                   20 April 2016 at 12:08 pm

                   Along with the slightly pink hue peeping out from under the Nattie’s blue skirts . . . . and has been for a long time now.

                   These bastards talk hard line right and policy slightly left.

                   Tell me one decent policy instituted by Labour that this lot has rescinded.

                   Tell me one good policy that this lot has actually instituted
                 • leftie …

                   20 April 2016 at 12:22 pm

                   You don’t know me at all Colonial Viper, and I think you have made yourself clear to all on how stuck you are in your spiteful hate. I take what right wingers like you say with a pinch of salt.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     20 April 2016 at 12:27 pm

                     Remind me how David Parker, potentially the best economic and financial mind in the Labour caucus today, publicly described Cullen’s and English’s pseudo-privatisation of Kiwi Bank as a “brilliant” financial concept.

                     Then I’d like to hear yourself twist around in circles trying to argue that Labour is still nominally left wing.
                   • leftie …

                     20 April 2016 at 12:58 pm

                     Is Parker “the best economic and financial mind in the Labour caucus today”? Its a way of keeping it in public ownership as opposed to National, who is very desperate for money, selling it off to its foreign interests. So keeping a NZ asset in NZ’s ownership is being left wing.
     • Leftie 7.1.2

       19 April 2016 at 10:11 pm

       AFTER Labour took the FTA with China for a parliamentary vote in 2008. John key voted in favour of it. Key refused to put the TPPA to a parliamentary vote.
       • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1

         19 April 2016 at 11:08 pm

         Yep. And Andrew Little has stated that he will keep NZ in the TPP.
         • Leftie 7.1.2.1.1

           20 April 2016 at 12:22 am

           Andrew Little said not in its current form, and no other opposition party has said they will leave it either. But since John key has committed future governments to it already, its not that easy to leave, as you well know Colonial Viper.

           “The TPPA undermines New Zealand’s sovereignty and is a threat to our democracy. National has overestimated the benefits to New Zealand and negotiated it in secrecy.

           Under the TPPA:

           Our Parliament would not be allowed to ban overseas speculators from buying up Kiwi homes. Other countries, including Australia, negotiated an exemption from this clause but National failed to do so for New Zealand.

           Foreign corporations could sue the government over policy changes seen as affecting their businesses.

           New Zealanders’ access to life-saving drugs could be restricted as our laws are tilted in favour of US pharmaceutical companies.

           Labour cannot support the TPPA as it stands and will seek to renegotiate it in government to get a better deal for New Zealanders — one that doesn’t undermine our sovereignty.

           Are you with us? Add your name.

           Labour: Say no to the TPPA”

           <a href="http://www.labour.org.nz/tppa_petition
           • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1.1.1

             20 April 2016 at 1:05 am

             You can stop being an apologist for Labour’s confused pro-anti TPP stance.
             • leftie …

               20 April 2016 at 12:29 pm

               But I am not being an apologist for Labour’s anti TPPA stance. The only one who appears confused is you, Colonial Viper.
           • Gosman 7.1.2.1.1.2

             20 April 2016 at 5:28 am

             It is very easy to leave the TPPA. You give 6 months notice and then you leave. It is only people like you who argue with no evidence that it will be impossible or too hard to leave.
             • save NZ …

               20 April 2016 at 8:26 am

               as Raybon Kan in his article: TPP – what could go wrong?

               I’m not going to pretend I’ve read the TPP. I tried to read the Law Foundation website, which questions it, but got as far as this sentence: “Withdrawal is a technical possibility but a political, diplomatic and economic unreality.”
               • leftie …

                 20 April 2016 at 12:25 pm

                 +1 SaveNZ.
             • leftie …

               20 April 2016 at 12:26 pm

               No, it’s not as easy as you think Gosman.
     • Mr Nobody 7.1.3

       20 April 2016 at 8:59 am

       Comrade Helen would never have signed a treaty that would have handed over New Zealand’s sovereignty! Any statement to the contrary is a blatant lie that has been spread by those filthy Right Wing Capitalist Pig Dogs and those spreading such lies will be executed at dawn.
       • leftie 7.1.3.1

         20 April 2016 at 12:40 pm

         No, she wouldnt have signed away this country’s sovereignty like John Key did Mr Noddy. National rolled over for Key’s corporate mates/foreign government friends. Now Key, who plays both sides, wants to tweak the FTA to ensure that’s its far more beneficial to China, after he gifted NZ’s sovereignty and resources to his largely, American interests.
8. Wayne 8

   19 April 2016 at 9:04 pm

   In the case of extradition of person accused of a serious crime such as murder, I am certain that if China formally undertakes not to execute a person they will honour that undertaking. Not to do so would be the equivalent of breaking a Treaty.

   I would also note that the Law Commission has recently published a report on extradition and mutual assistance. We considered that this kind of issue would remain part of the Ministers powers in deciding whether to extradite. Of course any decision by a Minister would be reviewable by the courts. But this would primarily be whether the Minister gave proper consideration of all the relevant issues in coming to the decision.
   • te reo putake 8.1

     19 April 2016 at 9:24 pm

     Murder is but one of 47 offences that attract the death penalty, Wayne. How do we look after the interests of a Kiwi resident accused of ‘seriously endangering public safety’ (whatever that might mean?).

     Regarding Ministerial oversight and decision making, isn’t that pretty much what we have now? Why allow the Chinese government closer and more formalised involvement in the process? Let them ask, by all means, but let us decide.
     • Matthew Hooton 8.1.1

       20 April 2016 at 4:39 am

       New Zealand does not extradite people unless the alleged crime is also a crime in NZ (that’s one of the issues in the Dotcom case) and only if there is a guarantee the death penalty will not be sought. So the hypotheticals you raise are not relevant.
       • Te Reo Putake 8.1.1.1

         20 April 2016 at 6:36 am

         Anyone else here reassured by professional spinner Matthew Hooton’s words? Thought not.
         • Gosman 8.1.1.1.1

           20 April 2016 at 7:08 am

           You can verify for yourself if what he states is not correct.
         • Descendant Of Sssmith 8.1.1.1.2

           20 April 2016 at 7:12 am

           Nah I’ll be reassured when an agreement is negotiated that National MP’s (co-incidentally ones with business interests in China) will be able to travel at tax-payers expense to visit the prisoners and make sure they are still (barely) alive.

           This should nicely counter-balance the attempts to restrict Labour MP’s freely visiting prisoners in NZ jails.
         • Gabby 8.1.1.1.3

           20 April 2016 at 11:57 am

           Hootie Blowhard just might be privy to the details of what Ponyboy is discussing, you never know.
       • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.1.1.2

         20 April 2016 at 10:05 am

         There should be no extradition treaty with any country with an appalling human rights record – period. China has such a record.

         No death penalty is no guarantee – still can be tortured, subject to disgraceful judicial process, indefinite imprisonment without trial, arrest due to political views…

         Amazing the national party fan club think this is a good idea.
         • Gabby 8.1.1.2.1

           20 April 2016 at 11:59 am

           Or arrested and tried on ‘new’ charges arising from ‘new information’.
       • save NZ 8.1.1.3

         20 April 2016 at 9:20 pm

         Yep as with the Dotcom case, if NZ spends millions of taxpayers dollars on persecuting someone, seize someones assets so they can’t defend themselves, have 70 armed defender raid someones house with young kids for the FBI over some civil issue of copywrite infringement which has already been tested and lost in US courts against U Tube/Viacom, one of the defendants Sony’s own lawyers opinion is that he is innocent, gets the GCSB to illegally spy and copy tapes to send to the FBI and has to issue apologies, and the judge who is the NZ Internet law expert has to unexpected resign and not hear the case, we call all be relieved that the NZ justice system is going along tickety boo under the National Government, sarc.
     • Wayne 8.1.2

       20 April 2016 at 8:43 am

       The Law Commission proposes changing the current situation whereby the Minister has the final say for all extradition cases.

       Our proposal is that the court would have the final say in most cases, such as where there may be issues of fair trial processes, whether human rights are observed, and whether the offence is extraditable.

       The Minister would be involved if there are issues relating to state undertakings, as opposed to an undertaking that a court can give. An obvious example is obtaining an undertaking that a person would not be subject to the death penalty. Such an undertaking has to be given by the government, and thus has to be sought by our government, through the Minister.

       A treaty would formalise what is currently ad hoc. China is currently seeking the extradition of a citizen charged with murder, which took place in China. This case is currently before the court in New Zealand. The New Zealand govt has made it clear that China must undertake not to apply the death penalty and it is my understanding that China has given this undertaking. However, there are other legal issues in the case and they are yet to be determined by the court.

       DoublePlusGood,

       Yes, I do believe that a formal undertaking by a government of this nature (not to execute) will be honoured.

       Think of the counterfactual. China gives a formal undertaking not to execute, but executes anyway. Not only would that end all future extraditions from New Zealand, it would also have the same effect in many other countries. Such an action would gain worldwide attention. It would seriously damage China’s relationship with a large number of countries.

       There are consequences when countries breach undertakings. France had to compensate New Zealand, following an international arbitration, when they allowed the Rainbow Warrior bombers to leave Hao Island before they had finished their sentences.

       Executing a person in breach of an undertaking would be viewed much more seriously, and would have much wider repercussions. That is why for instance the US has never breached an undertaking not to apply the death penalty to people accused of murder whose extradition they seek, usually from European nations. They know if they did that would be the end of all future extraditions.
       • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.1.2.1

         20 April 2016 at 10:09 am

         To quote amnesty international on China:

         “Amnesty International has documented widespread human rights violations in China. An estimated 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial”

         “Torture and other ill-treatment remained widespread in detention and during interrogation, largely because of shortcomings in domestic law, systemic problems in the criminal justice system, and difficulties with implementing rules and procedures in the face of entrenched practices.”

         The nats want to be a part of this system?? In a country that practices total censorship??
         • Ralf Crown 8.1.2.1.1

           20 April 2016 at 12:29 pm

           First, remember that Amnesty is an American propaganda channel. Secondly, while China has successfully worked to stamp out its human rights abuses from past times, what really should concern everyone is the human rights abuses in New Zealand. Poverty, moldy substandard housing, housing affordability, food, children and education, right to privacy, right to leave and return to you country. Human rights abuses are increasing in New Zealand.
           • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.1.2.1.1.1

             20 April 2016 at 2:01 pm

             “First, remember that Amnesty is an American propaganda channel. ”

             I don’t think so. Founded in Britain in 1961, and highly critical of abuses in and by the USA.

             ” Secondly, while China has successfully worked to stamp out its human rights abuses from past times”

             Where’s your evidence for that??! Plenty of current horror stories. I suggest you go there and stand in Tiananmen Square with a large placard criticising the Chinese government, and see how you go.

             Your final argument is pitiful. Essentially “ignore this really bad thing, because of this other really bad thing”. While doing nothing about either.
             • Ralf Crown …

               21 April 2016 at 12:58 pm

               ”Propagandachannel”, maybe needs to be clarified, stressing ”channel”. They are not a US propaganda organization, but one of the many purportedly “neutral” channels US is using to spread propaganda to serve its causes. Besides, “Who pays the piper….

               Evidence, I have been a resident of China for decades, and came here in the 70s. I can see with my own eyes. It is first hand information. Provocation activity is not allowed on Tienanmen, as little as it is allowed in the parliament debating chamber in New Zealand, but there are many other avenues available. Current horror stories, where did you hear that, through one of the propaganda channels maybe.

               Final lines, what I am saying, clean your own doorstep before pooping on someone else’s.
           • Psycho Milt 8.1.2.1.1.2

             20 April 2016 at 2:51 pm

             …China has successfully worked to stamp out its human rights abuses…

             Oh, how we laughed. You are a card, Mr Crown.

             …what really should concern everyone is the human rights abuses in New Zealand. Poverty, moldy substandard housing, housing affordability, food, children and education, right to privacy, right to leave and return to you country.

             If only we had as successfully worked to stamp these out as the Chinese government has! Alas, the people of NZ have never granted absolute power to a group of authoritarian nationalist criminals, so the ability to effect utopia has eluded us.
             • Ralf Crown …

               21 April 2016 at 1:05 pm

               “Card”, maybe your view, from that little US controlled and indoctrinated island in the bottom corner of the map, but I am on site and can se and experience myself. When I am back in New Zealand I see the complete opposite, latest, today – six teenage girls beating up a store owner. Wonderful country that kiwi hideout for criminals. Mr. Key has obviously been granted absolute power. TPP??? If it was China, he could be sacked by people action. Not in New Zealand.
         • Ralf Crown 8.1.2.1.2

           21 April 2016 at 1:02 pm

           Correction – to quote the US propaganda and false rumors. Just for your information, censorship is very strong in New Zealand, ask Vince Siemer if you don’t believe me.
       • Psycho Milt 8.1.2.2

         20 April 2016 at 2:58 pm

         Think of the counterfactual. China gives a formal undertaking not to execute, but executes anyway.

         Continuing your counterfactual: executes anyway, but doesn’t report the fact that the prisoner has been shot in the back of the head and had his organs harvested, instead reporting that the misguided chap was packed off for decades of hard labour in a distant province.

         But that couldn’t happen, right? The governments of communist dictatorships have always proven scrupulously honest and transparent in their official statements and reports up to now, so why would anyone imagine they might lie about stuff?
         • Ralf Crown 8.1.2.2.1

           21 April 2016 at 1:10 pm

           New Zealand does not execute people by taking away their life, but by taking away their living. I agree with you that an extradition treaty is a bad thing, because now China can demand that New Zealand citizens and residents be handed over if China deems them as criminals. Dictatorship, what about the Mr. Key dictatorship.
   • DoublePlusGood 8.2

     19 April 2016 at 11:13 pm

     “Not to do so would be the equivalent of breaking a Treaty.”
     Oh, yeah, sure. Because China would never do that.
     Are you being naive, or willfully misleading?
   • save NZ 8.3

     20 April 2016 at 8:34 am

     How about being accused of being a terrorist (so fashionable these days).

     Ahmed Zaoui was incorrectly accused of being a terrorist by the NZ and Algerian governments.

     from wiki

     “In August 2003 the Refugee Status Appeals Authority declared both his Belgian and French trials to be “unsafe” and granted Zaoui refugee status. Commenting on the information available to them in order to evaluate Zaoui’s claim, the RSAA stated that they “…were surprised at how limited it was and the questionable nature of some of the contents” and that “…it does not provide evidence that he has committed, directed or participated in any act of violence or terrorism that would require his being excluded under Article 1F from the protection of the Refugee Convention.” [12]”
9. Ad 9

   19 April 2016 at 9:43 pm

   John likes our agreements free, but he would prefer us just cheap.
10. Conal 10

    20 April 2016 at 12:09 am

    Jesus TRP – xenophobic much?
    • Psycho Milt 10.1

      20 April 2016 at 7:04 am

      Any comment to make that isn’t both stupid and malicious? Something about the actual substance of the OP, for example?
11. Te Reo Putake 11

    20 April 2016 at 6:40 am

    Nope, not a shred of xenophobia. Criticism of the Chinese government is not criticism of the Chinese people. But thanks for contributing, anyway, Conal. I’d be keen to hear your views on the substance of the post, if you care to share.
    • Ad 11.1

      20 April 2016 at 7:10 am

      PM Peter Fraser with all his UN-formation experience would have been even more critical.
    • Ralf Crown 11.2

      21 April 2016 at 1:19 pm

      It is actually, because the Chinese people have chosen the system they have. It took from 1912 to late 70s to get there, and cost around 100 million lives, but now it is working and is very prosperous. The government of China has today over 90% support from the population. New Zealand people have not chosen their system, it was imposed on them by the British.
    • Conal 11.3

      22 April 2016 at 2:23 pm

      “… he will, however, happily open a discussion on an extradition treaty that will allow China to execute their citizens currently resident in NZ if they so choose”

      Utter, utter, bollocks.
      • Te Reo Putake 11.3.1

        22 April 2016 at 2:29 pm

        I love your optimism, Conal!

        Again, if you have anything substantial to say about the post, please feel free to put up an argument explaining your viewpoint. One liners such as that you’ve just posted don’t really contribute anything to the debate and I know that you are more than capable of intelligent discourse so how about trying a wee bit harder next time. Cheers.
12. whispering kate 12

    20 April 2016 at 8:33 am

    Two scenarios to think about. Firstly we are endeavouring to extradite Kim Dot Com to the US – there are States over there who have the death penalty and their prison record on human rights is not strong. They waterboard and have prisoners renditioned from other countries and incarcerated indefinitely. . In some States one would not want to be imprisoned by their local authorities if you had a traffic infringement for the ruthless way they treat people even on remand. Ask the lady who was imprisoned at the border at LAX for unfortunately not having the correct documentation, she had her phone, passport etc removed and she sat terrified for her future two days before her family could have her removed from incarceration. Her story was printed in the Herald and she said she will never go to the States again. Also, generally the US Black population are treated poorly and discriminated against with unfair crimes stats. China may be more ruthless with their human rights but the same argument applies. Aren’t we being hypocritical over all of this.

    Secondly, if this extradition agreement does go through, might it deter the corrupt Chinese who are into drug importing, into and through this country and ease the Customs work load. How many huge drug hauls have been picked up at our airports. We may find this country isn’t so attractive to these drug lords if they know they face extradition – also the money laundering rackets that are going on through the casino’s here, might it deter that as well. The police are savagely underfunded and have our own gangs to deal with with illegal guns and drugs without Chinese crime lords muscling in on bad business here too.

    The mantra from this government and the PM is, if you are doing no wrong then what is your fear of being spied on – all he is doing is applying the same logic to these criminals.

    I also abhor countries with poor Human rights – but if the extradition agreement does go through hopefully criminals will stay away from NZ and in the process save their lives in the process.
    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      20 April 2016 at 9:34 am

      there are States over there who have the death penalty and their prison record on human rights is not strong.

      And that’s an understatement.

      Look at how they treated Chelsea Manning. That was inhumane and torture, according to the UN.

      And this RT report details a class action lawsuit against the corrections department of Florida, saying that as women inmates at the prison they were raped and sexually abused on a daily basis by guards and police. And that it carries on as routine today.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tP-5jgBM5M
13. save NZ 13

    20 April 2016 at 8:36 am

    At least if National adopt that policy, Labour have finally got a reason to get the NZ resident Chinese to vote for them:)
14. greywarbler 14

    20 April 2016 at 8:42 am

    Our wealthy and comfortable have had a Mussolini moment that goes on and on – you know the saying – that he at least got the trains running on time.

    NZ used to be better than we are now. The left lost its way and put the driving power for the country in the hands of Gnacts. The wealthy are still comfortable and that’s all the overwhelming majority of them care about. They have been given a wealth-sustaining mantra to say when they have a moment of concern about others sad plight – ‘They didn’t work hard enough’ or they didn’t utilise their opportunities or they drank too much etc.
    So move on, nothing to affect the self-satisfaction of the wealthy and aspiring.

    That’s why NZ isn’t good, and getting badder as a country. So let’s have strategies that turn this right around, without destroying the country like the earthquake did. Now that would be smart, they would be practical and well thought out, and immediately get people into work attending to all the little jobs that need doing, with a task force green approach not building sports stadiums and dams though. And not turned to doing tradesmens jobs for untrained work experience, so can’t build Cave Creek type structures or houses.

    When every thoughtful and clever leftie concentrates, focusses their minds and thoughts on that we will get somewhere. Now we just ineffectually flap our hands and form a circle of gossip and criticism.
15. Tautoko Mangō Mata 15

    20 April 2016 at 9:18 am

    NZ used to be better than we are now. The left lost its way and put the driving power for the country in the hands of Gnacts. ….. True, but…..

    It is OUR (the people’s) job to show the way to the opposition, instead of beating them with a stick.
    Again I post this gem:
    b“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
    To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
    ― R. Buckminster Fuller
    We progressives need less time self-flagellating and more time elucidating a positive, viable alternative future under a progressive government. The new path, te ara hou.
    • greywarbler 15.1

      20 April 2016 at 12:29 pm

      @Tautoko Mango Mata
      OK you have done a lot of thinking on TPPA and other things. So what would your broad prescription be to build a new model? A new political party.? I think forming co-operatives with energised people doing useful things together as a first practical step. Beats going to political meetings and thinking of ways to raise money through cake stalls and fashion shows.

      It’s hard to know where to apply the leverage to get this trainwreck moving in the right direction. I am going away for a few days but will look up the blog and see what you say. We do need some thoughtful direction.,as I have said a lot of our time is spent in flapping our hands, and saying My God, and WTF, and other expletives which offer temporary release. Even going on protests which are not to be sniffed at as thoughtful activist protest, ultimately is only holding up a sign. I was quite affected to watch the Ukrainian force march up to the armed Russians who had taken over there airfield and talk and challenge them. It was a fait accompli but they tried to carry out their duty. And I am not saying who was in the right in the territorial disagreement. But when politics need sorting out, and the force is not with you, how do people get things done that they need, exert some power?

      We may want to start an anarchist collective as in Monty Python, but they were still grubbing in the ground while they argued about how to carry out their meeting and decision-making process. Very good, but satire of what does happen I fear.
      • Sacha 15.1.1

        20 April 2016 at 3:15 pm

        There are viable, effective alternatives to political parties emerging – ActionStation is one NZ example.
16. UncookedSelachimorpha 16

    20 April 2016 at 3:43 pm

    A good summary of the dreadful flaws in John Key’s proposal now on RadioNZ News:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/301913/govt-warned-over-china-extradition-treaty

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