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Condemning the obvious

Written By: - Date published: 12:46 am, August 27th, 2014 - 143 comments
Categories: accountability, David Farrar, dpf, Ethics - Tags: , , ,

David Farrar and others on “the right” (hi guys) look pretty stupid trying to claim the moral high ground in the middle of the dirty politics shitstorm. From an exchange on twitter last night:


Of course I and other Standard authors (by all means comment if you disagree folks) condemn lyrics that incite violence, and any and all threats to the children of politicians (who are completely out of bounds). Does this even need saying? Of course it’s wrong, it’s offensive, and it’s damaging to the political climate.

But I can’t believe the hypocrisy of Farrar and his little fan club. Why doesn’t he condemn National’s dirty politics? Why doesn’t he condemn the regular threats of violence on his sewer blog? Why didn’t he condemn the plot to harm Nicky Hager?:

plot to harm nicky harger copy

Chop chop for Nicky – why didn’t Farrar report this to the police? Why in this context does he continue to post this kind of violent bullshit on his blog?:


Farrar, the political right and the moral high ground? – it is beyond hypocrisy.

This is all just more distraction. Trying to equate the actions of a disenfranchised, angry few (chants, lyrics, an effigy) with the systematic abuse of democracy and decency undertaken by the dirty politics attack machine that Farrar, Slater, and the highest level of the National Party participate in. As Dame Anne Salmond said – we need to purge this dirty politics from our political system, and get back to the issues that matter.

143 comments on “Condemning the obvious ”

  1. RedLogix 1

    Well Farrar was plain wrong regarding Cunliffe for a start:

    Dirty Politics smear campaigns, burning effigies, foul-mouthed abuse from a media adviser and now a musical death threat. Is this New Zealand’s nastiest election campaign?

    Labour leader David Cunliffe believes so – and he’s blaming his National rivals.

    Cunliffe was today asked to respond to newly released hip-hop lyrics which appear to threaten to kill National leader John Key, and have sex with his daughter.

    He said: “I’m condemning it right here.”


    Dirty Politics is about the abuse of power and vile behaviour at the centre of our political system. It’s about the Prime Minister and other powerful Party figures, closely associating themselves with the odious and repugnant Slater, misusing the OIA process and state power to smear, attack and subvert our democratic process.

    While publicly pretending that they were lily-white and above all that sort of thing.

    Which is of course exactly the same thing as a couple of angry fools making an idiot song deserving of zero oxygen.

    Then of course Farrar and Drinnan could have just listened to what their own hero said on the matter:

    Key was today reluctant to comment on the song.

    ‘‘I just don’t think it’s worth dignifying with a response,’’ he said.


    • Tracey 1.1

      I wont dignify it with a response but I think NZers will make up their own minds etc etc etc

      Has the MSM actually reprinted the exchange relating to wanting hager’s address, the implication of violence toward him, and then Hoots and Slater providing it?

      • Bunji 1.1.1

        And the twitter conversation went on from where Anthony left it –

        Danyl pointed out that Russell Brown had condemned it, at which point Farrar started getting more specific that he wanted “one of the more politics focused ones” – presumably he meatn the Standard or Daily Blog.

        He’s got that now.

        Also, Farrar was called out on his hypocrisy by Lew, who compared Farrar’s wanting people to condemn the group rather than just the lyrics, to Farrar’s condemning the Whaleoil’s “feral” post, but he’s a great mate…

        And the Government’s yet to condemn Whaleoil’s toxicity at all…

        And there was another amusing reply to Farrar’s condemn the people with a history of violent songs and not just the lyrics – saying they agreed and they didn’t know why National had used Eminem as the opening campaign tune…

  2. Jrobin 2

    I think they are on the lookout for a new hero, John Key is now Dead Man Walking.

    • disturbed 2.1

      Hasn’t Key’s manner & his voice changed?

      He sounds different today, maybe he can’t get to sleep wondering what’s coming next eh!

      Don’t you love that element of surprise?

      Bet key hates the boot on the other foot.

      A big size 16 boot right up his arse from KDC I guess,

      A guy who is 6 foot 7 would have about that size boot, hope Key gets to feel it.

  3. Tigger 3

    His hypocrisy extends to continuing to not announce his affiliations when bring. ‘Commentator’. Every time he appears anywhere he must be listed as affiliated with National. If not it’s dishonest. Probably a breach of accuracy, also balance in certain cases. Time for some complaints.

    • Tigger 3.1

      Goodness, speaking of accuracy I need to type more carefully (on phone and autocorrect has gleefully turned my prose into gibberish).

      • greywarbler 3.1.1

        @ Tigger 7.38
        Advanced texting if doing on phone! And didn’t seem gibberish – was bring meant to be being. The point about people declaring affiliations when commenting is excellent.
        Saying I am speaking as Green, Labour, IMP leaning would be helpful in understanding views.

        Just saying left or right or centre would be no good though. Everyone has a different view of where they are on the sliding scale of political allegiance.

  4. tc 4

    The hope is very time farrar appears should remind swinging voters the media is biased and discount whatever message is being delivered.

    He is highly skilled at deflection and putting a reasonable spin on the abhorrent whilst smearing that ‘left’ they blame it on.

    Farrer is every bit as guilty as slater in the dirty politics game he is just smarter, more nuanced and hides behind Curia as his legitimate front for the dog whistling kiwi blog.

  5. One Anonymous Bloke 5

    The difference between Farrar and @Peace is that Farrar doesn’t just dream of murder and date-rape, [r0b: deleted, too far, sorry]

    • Tracey 5.1


      The book only reports an abhorrent exchange by two people going to a Farrar party, no evidence he was part of creating pliable young nat women .

      The rappers words are appalling. I can only imagine he saw how well the clever song which got banned did, and decided to change some lyrics of an existing song and get himself some publicity.

      • Tracey 5.1.1

        rOb, can you remove mine too cos it makes less sense with OAB’s gone

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.2

        Sorry R0b – it probably was a bit much. I see people are giving it to him on his Twitter feed 😀

      • alwyn 5.1.3

        After your comment a bit further down about David Farrar and his request that those on the left should condemn the material in that song, where you say

        “And Farrar either knew this when writing it, or after he wrote it, and added no update.

        That is why his faux shame and pretend thoughts to leave politics were a game.”

        I assume you will now apologise to Farrar for your remarks about “his” party.
        He has denied it completely, and did so four days ago. Why don’t you try apologising to him for not taking note of what he said, and instead choosing to publicise the lies of Hager?
        Should we say about you that you either knew about it when you wrote this, or after you wrote it and added no update?


  6. karol 6

    Anthony: Of course I and other Standard authors (by all means comment if you disagree folks) condemn lyrics that incite violence, and any and all threats to the children of politicians (who are completely out of bounds).

    As felix commented yesterday, when I expressed my dislike of such expressions of violence (on open mike I think), @peace don’t speak for the left, but for themselves.

    I’m with Anthony on condemning lyrics that incite violence. I also think politicians’ children should not be the subject of political/public attacks.

    Farrar’s hypocrisy is worthy of being condemned in the strongest terms. Has he condemned WO for the disgusting post on the young West Coaster after he died?

    • Tracey 6.1

      I agree.

      Mr Key has however subtly used his children, or allowed them to be used for his own ends… planking, photo in golf cart, photos with Obama and so on. I am surprised, given Bronagh’s apparent desire to stay out of the limelight, that she has allowed Key to expose his kids.

      Not agreeing at all with the lyrics. I understand the police might be investigating the threats both to Key and his daughter, so how come the Roast Busters….

    • Ffloyd 6.2

      Didn’t Slater of someone from his cesspit say that Mr Pleasant AND his wife and children should all be shot?

      • Tracey 6.2.1

        I don’t recall it from the book and I don’t visit his site

        • Bunji

          It was a commenter who said his wife and children should be shot if they’re not prepared to pay for his bullet.
          Police went to Slater’s house and made him take the comment down.

      • Tautoko Viper 6.2.2

        How about the alacrity in dealing with the bullet holes in Hone’s office?

        • Chris

          Someone needs to put Odgers’ email right in Kathryn Ryan’s face or whoever it is at RNZ who decides Hooton stays. His behaviour, in this precise context, cannot be shrugged off with “everybody knows Hager’s address”. It beggars belief that RNZ is still happy to have him on her show. Same goes for Farrar on The Panel. These people are using RNZ as a shield to help protect their involvement in this filthy nasty stuff. Everything that comes out of Hooton’s mouth at the moment is clearly about personal damage control. Same goes for Farrar. His faux-offence/sadness/disappointment/disenchantment with politics fooled nobody.

          • BLiP

            Ryan knows. She asked Hooton about it on that silly politics panel she hosts and Hooton, disengenuously oblivious to his part in the targeting of Hager for the “chop chop”, told the National Radio audience where Hager lives. Wattaguy.

            • RedLogix

              Hager himself makes no secret of the fact that he lives in Levin. That’s not the point.

              The problem for Odgers is that she is plainly encouraging some form of physical retaliation on Hager in his home. There is no way her email can be construed as ‘indirect’, ‘metaphoric’ or a just a ‘jerky’ throw-away line. She’s expressed an extended and considered intention to harm Nicky Hager (and by extension his family as well).

              I want to know what action the Police have considered here. If not – why not.

              Incidentally here is Hypocrite Central justifying it all.

              Yesterday there was some excitement over some e-mails from the Hager book which made it look like Cactus Kate had published Nicky Hager’s address so the Chinese triads could kill him, over his work exposing money laundering.

              I know Cactus well and she is an unlikely assassin.

              The reality is that people sometimes say jerky things in private e-mail conversations. I suspect most of us have done it. I’m sure I have. Go through what must be over 100,000 e-mails from me, and I am sure you’ll find some where I have said offensive and jerky things.


              Book mark that rationalisation. It’s a doozy.

              • BLiP

                Huh? I was responding to the suggestion that Ryan was not aware of the Odgers/Hooton/Slater’s threats. The fact that Hooton was so unrepentent he went ahead and repeated Hager’s address, surely. illuminates “the point”. Where was Ryan’s condemnation of that?

                • Chris

                  I’m sure she knows about them but she either fails or refuses to see the significance. She’s been swept up in the “this is too big to believe so it can’t be true” syndrome. That’s why there’s no condemnation from her, or from any of her other lightweight mates in MSM.

                • RedLogix

                  Sorry – crossed wires. I didn’t intend to be quibbling with you BLiP – I should have worded that more carefully.

                  Either way both Odgers and Hooten have some hard questions to answer.

            • Chris

              But Ryan seemed to accept Hooton’s response unquestioningly. She’s been taken in with the rest of them. I really don’t think she gets it.

      • Puddleglum 6.2.3

        Yes, they did.

        It’s in the book and it led to the police visiting Slater telling him to take the comment down or accompany them to the police station.

        He took it down.

    • It’s not inciting violence. It’s a diss track. I realise that there aren’t many of those in your collection of Engelbert Humperdinck albums, but they do exist. 😉

      • karol 6.3.1

        Humperdinck? Really? Can’t you do better than that as an age slur? Not at all the sort of music I’ve ever listened to,

        It really doesn’t matter about the age or genre.

        Macho posturing (sometimes using expressions of violence) is part of some genres, I know. But that’s no defense (of the specific expression being discussed or the genre).

    • Chris 6.4

      Slater has for a long time called for people to die. I’ll never forget how he called for the young guy in Christchurch with Asperger’s Syndrome should be shot in the stomach for stealing light fittings from damaged properties. The media just needs to do a quick search on his site. It’s all there, really nasty evil stuff, and Collins, Key, Hooton, Odgers, Farrar, Williams and a stack of others are linked as closely as anyone can be to all of this. Just hope the Inspector-General’s report isn’t a whitewash.

      • karol 6.4.1

        Agreed, Chris.

        When the WO nastiness has been pointed out to some in the past, and the likes of the PM re-Dirty Politcs, they hide behind the faux claim that Left blogs do it too. They, and journalists, only need to compare what’s on the websites to see that WO nastiness is in a disgusting class of its own.

  7. Tracey 7

    “I’m condemning it right here.”

    And Farrar either knew this when writing it, or after he wrote it, and added no update.

    That is why his faux shame and pretend thoughts to leave politics were a game.

    BUT those who are being polled and keeping John Key popular, and those int he media who are treating this as a “meh” moment, partly because they are knee deep in the same mud, give him the confidence to mock the electorate.

    That is what this post is, a mockery of the electorate. Oh and a lie.

  8. Observer (Tokoroa) 8

    The cry baby PM

    We all cringe at roughies using course language and throwing insults and threats at the First Lady and the First Children in the land.

    But John the great “Victim” is walking through his rotten world carrying a sweet Parnell Rose between his lips.

    The family with everything (Money Money Money, Power Power Power, Prestige) flaunting itself in front of hundreds of thousands of good kiwis ground down by low wages, difficult education opportunities, exorbitant debt around student necks, blown up GST, outrageous costs to keep warm, hopeless outlook for decent accommodation let alone property acquisition. Jobs that flutter away out of sight on tomorrow’s fiscal breeze.

    Big monies given to the already wealthy Kiwis.. By Key and English and Dunne.

    Of course the hapless are going to write a song telling the PM he Stinks with the dirtiest Stench ever in the history of New Zealand.

    You are no Victim Key. Cry baby.

    • Tracey 8.1

      they havent written a song saying he stinks, they have written a song saying they want to kill him and have sex with his daughter… appalling

      • grumpystilskin 8.1.1

        Sounds like (now) normal hip-hop lyrics to me.
        If that disturbs you, you really need to listen to some gangster rap.
        On second thoughts, maybe not..

  9. vto 9

    Farrar and his type of people do their best to keep minimum wage at levels that a man cannot support his family on – wage earners subsidising business owners. Slaves cost more.

    Farrar and his type of people do their best to take assets built by taxpayers and sell them to their rich mates – turn the people into renters of capital.

    Farrar and his type of people do their best to bust unions, who work to support the working people. People like Farrar are the enemy of working people.

    Farrar and his type of people put up taxes that hit the poor (GST) while at the same time giving South Canterbury Finance investors shitloads of cash for their shithead investment decisions.

    Farrar and his type of people shout at the top of their lungs at people down on their luck – get a job ya lazy shit – ya spend all ya money on booze and drugs ya losers.

    Farrar and his type of people call people “feral” and dance for joy when they die.

    Farrar and his type of people call earthquake sufferers “scum”

    John Key stands right beside people like Farrar and his type of people – as Key did yesterday in Greymouth, standing two feet from Joe Hall. Every opportunity in the world to say something to the long suffering mother, but did he? Nope. Key stood beside Farrar and Slater. It is Key that is scum – the entire world just witnessed it.

    The floodgates are wide open now and the songs and effigies and chants are pouring through, openly expressing the hatred and disgust that those on the lower side feel for people like Farrar.

    That Farrar and his type of people do not understand this shows the lack of understanding they have of their own attitudes and policies and their effects on those not them. They are fucking ignorant and it is sticking out like dogs balls. Suck on dogs balls you arseholes.

    • Bearded Git 9.1

      Farrar knew exactly what Slater was up to and never blew the whistle or condemned him. He is complicit. To anyone who reads “the book” this is obvious.

  10. Tracey 10

    Any reason to assume it’s the left and the singer isn’t far right and thinks Key is too soft?

  11. Enough is Enough 11

    There is nothing wrong with the song.

    They are not literally saying they will kill the Prime Minister.

    It is a figure of speech. i.e bring down the Prime Minister.

    Fuck no names are referred to.

    No need to get so defensive r0b. Chill mate and focus on the issues.

    • r0b 11.1

      Enough, the song refers to a shotgun and “pop”. I can’t read that as a figure of speech. Call me a grumpy old fogey (see Tom below) – because that’s what I am – but I can’t condone it.

      • Enough is Enough 11.1.1

        Fair comment r0b

        I just think this and the other recent examples of the general public getting animated about their distaste for this government is a direct consequence of prolonged aggressive war on the poor.

        You cannot systematically destroy the lives of so many people and not expect this kind of reaction. However over the top it may seem.

  12. Observer (Tokoroa) 12

    Tracey – I get the feeling you are close to the Key family and deeply upset.

    I think a lot of the population have been ground down too long. They have death by a thousand cuts through decisions made by your political friends.

    Clearly you have a comfortable living too.

    So all is good Tracey.

    • Tracey 12.1

      …Then you need to recalibrate your feelings antennae.

      I am neither close to them nor deeply upset.

      I am, however, appalled by anyone who thinks this is ok.

  13. Observer (Tokoroa) 13

    Tracey – are you in appalled state of mind over the the thrice chant of the All Blacks?

    Kamate Kamate Kamate

    Cheer up.

    • Tracey 13.1

      Grow Up

      • Tom Jackson 13.1.1

        “Come quickly pater, people are being beastly on the internet!”

        • Tracey

          ““If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. … We need not wait to see what others do.”” Ghandi

          • Rich

            That doesn’t work Tracey.

          • tinfoilhat

            Well quoted…. and you can add me to the list of those who while wanting to change the government are also completely against this type of thing.

            I can’t see why some people seem to think it’s OK to say such things because it’s election time and it’s in a song and they want a change in government. Acceptance of violence and misogyny is never right.

          • Tom Jackson

            A couple of questions.

            A pop starlet sings a song about having sex with strangers which includes a line like “I like to feel a strange man’s body against mine”. Is this in your view an invitation for men she doesn’t know to grope her and aggressively pursue her for sex in real life?


            Nicki Minaj has a video where she’s having her bum fondled by guys and giving lap dances. Is this in your view an invitation for men to grope her in public or to lecherously request lap dances?


            Then why should what male rappers say automatically be taken seriously?

            • Tracey

              so a woman who likes to sing about consenting to a strange man pressing his body to hers is the same as a rapper singing about murdering the PM?

              I DO see the point you are making Tom, and the rapper is entitled to his song and I am entitled to react strongly to his use of language and imagery as being a damaging message to encapsulate in his apparent effort to get young people voting (while simultaneously stating that a little song wont change anything).

              I haven’t called for it to be removed from the airways. I have not called for he and his band to be censored. BUT I do stand by my comments to date.

  14. Tom Jackson 14

    It’s a hip hop song. Rapping is in a large part about exaggeration, bragging and plain old bullshitting. Just because you like Ice-T’s “Cop Killer” doesn’t mean you actually want to kill cops. Similarly, Grand Theft Auto isn’t an incitement to violence.

    I thought I was a grumpy old fogey until I read some of these posts.

    • Tracey 14.1

      “large part about exaggeration, bragging and plain old bullshitting.”

      You mean like John Key and the Nats and his legion of bloggers? Oh, that’s okay then. FFS

      • Tom Jackson 14.1.1

        Are they recording artists?

        • Tracey

          Do you genuinely believe this is not an opportunist band using the election and dirty politics discussion to get themselves noticed? Cos that’s what I am inclined to believe, that they have seen an opportunity for self promotion and used the Pm and his daughter to do that. It’s about promoting themselves not inciting major change and mobilization of the youth vote.

          Each to their own.

          • Tom Jackson

            It’s a free country. They can do as they please. I agree they are probably shameless opportunists, but most of the music industry are guilty of that (see McLaren, M, for a test case).

            I didn’t think it was a particularly good song, but I’m not daft enough to interpret it as a threat or an incitement to violence. I’m old enough to have seen all this before back in the 90s when middle class white people were outraged by rap lyrics. Before that it was heavy metal and before that punk rock.

            When determining what people mean context is vital. If someone is standing in front of parliament with a pitchfork and a megaphone shouting “Let’s kill John Key”, that’s an incitement to violence. When a rapper says “Kill X”, it generally means “Fuck X, I hate X”. Only people who are unfamiliar with the genre would interpret it as a threat (and the artists rely on this to fuel notoriety). Similarly, the “poor young guy gets one over on rich old man by having it off with his stuck up daughter” is a tired old trope, but it doesn’t mean “rape her”.

            • Tracey

              Pretty sure I never suggested he was saying he would rape Key’s daughter cos I never took him to be saying that. My roast busters comment was about how the language and culture allows such commenting and attitudes to perculate. Having sex with a woman to pay back her father for example, isnt rape, but it is hardly treating women with respect.

              It is a free world within which we have laws. I agree it is not, imo, an incitement to kill the PM, or to rape his daughter. BUT people seemed able to express themselves in art pretty well without using the language o murder and exploitation of women.

              I guess in the end my point is that some here seem to be outraged by certain behaviours of politicians and their cohorts but then okee dokee about this kind of lyric which feeds into a similar mindset about the low value we place on each other if we are on opposing “teams”..

              • My roast busters comment was about how the language and culture allows such commenting and attitudes to perculate.

                In the real world the effect is minimal. People understand it’s not real.

                I guess in the end my point is that some here seem to be outraged by certain behaviours of politicians and their cohorts but then okee dokee about this kind of lyric which feeds into a similar mindset about the low value we place on each other if we are on opposing “teams”..

                Because there’s an obvious difference between the cases. Rappers are consciously purveying exaggerated BS and expect the audience to understand this in the same way that professional wrestlers know that the audience knows it’s fake. Politicians are consciously purveying exaggerated BS that they want people to actually believe.

            • greywarbler

              Why is anyone wasting words excusing the words of an ugly rap song? It explicitly refers to violence to a political figure in a time of political unrest and a drop in political standards, and it apparently also brings a daughter into the frame of violence. There is no semantics to argue about here.

              We all agree that it is vile, but at the present time, particularly so, as we claw our way out and up from the very muddy ground in which we seem glued. We want better standards in politics and want respect for political debate and the democracy we cherish and we must apply this to all sides. Name-calling, robust debate, angry exchanges, there must be a line in the sand that is drawn to rein in bad behaviour from spiralling into viciousness.

              This rap compounds dirty politics by mouthing extreme, fantastic thoughts, and extends them by invoking the hated sexual violence that is embedded in our society.

              It’s no time to mildly and objectively provide understanding of the background to it all, and compare to others in a relative scale of vileness. So those doing so just shut up excusing the crap and stop providing support for the muck-rakers. The responsible person would say that it is always unacceptable, and particularly in this fetid atmosphere, then give it a big negative and not give it legs by continuing to discuss it.

              • There is no semantics to argue about here.

                Actually there is. You’re just wrong.

                • greywarbler

                  Tom Jackson
                  Why do you not take a back seat now – you have said enough. Old fogeys shouldn’t be stirring up problems for younger ones to solve.

        • tinfoilhat

          “Are they recording artists?”

          Are you suggesting violence and misogyny is OK when it’s ‘art’ ?

          • Tom Jackson

            I’m trying to point out that the relationship between art and life is most often not representational. Art is more often a caricature of life than a representation of it. The relationship between a caricature of violence and misogyny and actual violence and misogyny is quite different than the relationship between representations and the real.

            Case in point: literary fiction and drama exaggerate human promiscuity. I once calculated that if one person on Shortland St had herpes, that everyone except old Marge would end up getting it. The viewers know that it’s an exaggeration for dramatic purposes and so don’t expect real life to be like that.

    • karol 14.2

      Not a great promo for the genre. It presents no defense.

      We’ve been getting this defense of such macho (sometimes expressed in violent terms) posturing in rap for decades – often with a helping of misogyny and/or homophobia.

      And if that’s being an “old fogie” (Anthony’s term), I’m in with that – nothing to be ashamed of there, IMO.

      • Tom Jackson 14.2.1

        And the people who rap these terrible things love their mothers and usually have wives and families.

        Santa isn’t real either.

        • Tracey

          Santa isn’t real either?

          The rapper was CGI-ed???? he isn’t a real person?

          • Tom Jackson

            Do you believe that the views of fictional characters necessarily represent the author’s views?

            • Tracey

              You first, is the Rapper a real person or imaginary like Santa Claus?

              • They are characters or personas. Johnny Rotten was essentially a character played by by John Lydon. Ice Cube is essentially a character played by O’Shea Jackson.

                • Tracey

                  so when he said he wrote it to get young people out to vote, but doesn’t think a song will change anything, was that him, the real person, or the personna you are granting him?

        • karol

          So it’s a gender thing – it’s a style of rapping used by guys – and the women in their lives are in the background?

      • tinfoilhat 14.2.2

        Yes indeed Karol more power to us old fogies.

      • Tracey 14.2.3

        Mackelmore has some interesting things to sing about rappers (being one himself and all that)

        “If I was gay, I would think hip-hop hates me
        Have you read the YouTube comments lately?
        “Man, that’s gay” gets dropped on the daily
        We become so numb to what we’re saying
        A culture founded from oppression
        Yet we don’t have acceptance for ’em
        Call each other faggots behind the keys of a message board
        A word rooted in hate, yet our genre still ignores it
        Gay is synonymous with the lesser
        It’s the same hate that’s caused wars from religion
        Gender to skin color, the complexion of your pigment
        The same fight that led people to walk outs and sit ins
        It’s human rights for everybody, there is no difference!
        Live on and be yourself
        When I was at church they taught me something else
        If you preach hate at the service those words aren’t anointed
        That holy water that you soak in has been poisoned
        When everyone else is more comfortable remaining voiceless
        Rather than fighting for humans that have had their rights stolen
        I might not be the same, but that’s not important
        No freedom ’til we’re equal, damn right I support it

        (I don’t know)

        And I can’t change
        Even if I tried
        Even if I wanted to
        My love
        My love
        My love
        She keeps me warm
        She keeps me warm
        She keeps me warm
        She keeps me warm”

  15. crocodill 15

    Theoretically, there is no difference. “Difference” in this case just means what current morals and popular thought allows. Morally (a tenuous standpoint in itself) they are both wrong. It should end there, but the problem, motivated by an admirable-but-flawed search by idealists for absolutes, starts when an illogical extrapolation begins:

    If there is no difference, then both are acceptable, and (suddenly definition of acceptable is changed using common colloquialism) acceptable should be encouraged/allowed/promoted for all scenarios.

    the incorrect extrapolation continues:

    If something is acceptable, then those who accept/reject it are liable/not liable for blame/censure/prosecution/penalties/rewards etc.

    Just because something is, don’t make the incorrect assumption that a resulting either/or action must occur.

    In short, both stupid. Oh well, time for snacks.

  16. Te Reo Putake 16

    For mine, the song is not ‘from the left’. These are Key’s children, Thatchers grandchildren. The sentiments are entirely selfish, from the whiny me me me culture we’ve had foisted on us these last thirty years. There’s plenty on the (unconscious?) right that don’t like Key, too.

    Anyhoo, for some reason this Gun Club song always makes me think of Key, particularly when he tries to look honest.

    The chorus goes:

    There is no fire in your glass eye
    There is no feeling when you’re done
    One day you will find out
    What kinda monster you’ve become.

    Couldn’t find a live original but Aussie Spencer P Jones does a great cover here:

  17. I can totally understand the anger and despair behind some of these sort of songs – what I dislike is the adoption of the worst aspects of American street culture – glorifying random violence, misogynistic to the core – and encouraged and heavily marketed by a bunch of cynical corporates.

    It’s no accident that the original anti-establishment and subversive element of black American street music has been diverted in this way. Black America has been herded into political and economic cul-de-sacs – trapped in there by drugs, unemployment and a racist and oppressive criminal justice system.

    Young Kiwis need to find their own voice and whilst I understand completely where they’re coming from and why, faux gangsta threats to ‘pop’ the PM and suggestions of what they might like to or with his daughter play into the Right’s hands.

    Women generally need to be way ‘better’ than their male peers to get equal treatment, people of colour need to be ‘better’ than white people – and the Left needs to be so far up on the moral high ground it’s impossible to deny or deflect from that. This sort of stuff provides the compliant media with a simple diversion away from the true filth in NZ.

    Well, that’s my grumpy old opinion.

    • Rich 17.1

      Sometimes even that better is not good enough. And sometimes from the favoured ones any performance is good enough.

  18. Observer (Tokoroa) 18


    Well put!

    Tracey is deeply upset for Mr Key who has promoted disdain for the common man; given wealth and largesse to the wealthy; untrained teachers for struggling ethnic groups; cultivated very close bonds with Collins, Farrar and Slater who talk about Princess Parties, earthquake scum; feral children and much more.

    If only Tracey’s dream of a sweet cup of tea in a pretty cup could come true.

    Key wades in unbelievable muck. That is the reality. No amount of denial is going to make that go away.

    Of course there is going to be a chant or two reflecting discontent.

    • Tracey 18.1

      So strange that you decided to turn your sights on me then and not over at Farrar and WO blogs, dontchathink?

  19. weka 19

    I actually have more of a problem with the misogyny and objectification of a woman as a way of committing violence against her father to be way more objectionable than someone wanting to kill the PM, probably because in NZ PMs don’t get shot, but women get abused and objectified all the time, and @peace just reinforced a whole bunch of fucked behaviours to an audience who already don’t get it (hence Tracey’s comment about Roast Busters).

    That rap routinely practices misogyny doesn’t make it any better than any other art form that practices misogyny. Or any other part of the culture. It’s just lazy to suggest that it’s ok because that’s what rap does.

    It’s a crap song lyric wise, although I really liked the music and rhythm. There’s no nuance in the lyrics – I’m poor and I hate rich blingy people and they’re gonna get theirs… Really?

    I don’t think it’s opportunistic re the election, I just think the guy who wrote it is politically naive and probably thought he was helping get younger people out to vote. I think it’s kind of weird that in his statement he says “Let’s not pretend a silly little song ever changed anything”. If that’s true, then why bother writing a political song? Or was he just mouthing off? Likewise his comparison with “Maggie you’re a c*nt”, he doesn’t appear to differentiate between wanting someone to be dead because they have caused you much suffering, and fantasising about going and killing the person who caused your suffering yourself. Beyond that, yeah, artistic freedom, fine, just would have been better if he’s written a smarter song.

    Overall he comes across as not really knowing what he is about. Bet he’s on a steep learning curve now though.

    as an aside, the lyrics don’t mention Key by name.

    • Tracey 19.1

      ““Let’s not pretend a silly little song ever changed anything”.” That’s what made me think he was being opportunistic. He contradicted himself.

    • adam 19.2

      Look you either have artistic freedom or you don’t. That means taking the bad with the good. Hell if I have to hear another song by Tailor Swift or Sam Smith I might puke. Empty rubbish – but I’m for artistic freedom, even though I think they both utter crap. Because I prefer to live in a society that has freedom of speech. Even when we don’t like stuff.

      I think it rich from someone like Farrar , who would be the first to scream if he thought his freedoms were being attacked – Oh wait he does, on a regular basis. So Farrar , did not see you demanding anyone on the right condemn Bridges when he effectively murdered off Maui dolphin’s. Species of you, or just when the left talk about violence your all up in arms? But, when the right preform murder and violence that’s OK – What a hypocrite, what a pathetic excuses of man you are. You have no morals stop acting like you do – but then again maybe you’ve a touch of the sociopathy about you as well.

      Do I agree with you on the stupidity of misogyny inside hip-hop Weke? – Hell yes. And you and I are not alone. Chuck D, Professor X, and many others are questioning this issue. Even Marshal Mathews


      • weka 19.2.1

        “Look you either have artistic freedom or you don’t. That means taking the bad with the good”

        Sure. It also means taking the critique. I’m not suggesting the song be banned. I just think it deserves to be put out there and dissected, mostly because of the timing. What is it exactly that is upsetting people, and how are different people upset differently? That’s worth exploring IMO, and in that sense the song is worthy because it’s provoked such a reaction. He still needs to be held accountable for the misogyny (thanks for link, will have a read).

        Agreed about Farrar, hypocrit extraodinaire, but then it is his job to have no self respect and say whatever is needed for the cause.

        • adam

          Weka you always bring a smile to the face.

          Agreed about Farrar, hypocrit extraodinaire, but then it is his job to have no self respect and say whatever is needed for the cause

  20. vto 20

    rappers hate on everyone

    everyone just getting in a tizzy because they can identify right now with one of their numerous targets.

    there aint nobody rappers don’t fire missiles at

    • Tracey 20.1

      here’s some lyrics from a rapper vto

      “If I was gay, I would think hip-hop hates me
      Have you read the YouTube comments lately?
      “Man, that’s gay” gets dropped on the daily
      We become so numb to what we’re saying
      A culture founded from oppression
      Yet we don’t have acceptance for ‘em
      Call each other faggots behind the keys of a message board
      A word rooted in hate, yet our genre still ignores it
      Gay is synonymous with the lesser
      It’s the same hate that’s caused wars from religion
      Gender to skin color, the complexion of your pigment
      The same fight that led people to walk outs and sit ins
      It’s human rights for everybody, there is no difference!
      Live on and be yourself
      When I was at church they taught me something else
      If you preach hate at the service those words aren’t anointed
      That holy water that you soak in has been poisoned
      When everyone else is more comfortable remaining voiceless
      Rather than fighting for humans that have had their rights stolen
      I might not be the same, but that’s not important
      No freedom ’til we’re equal, damn right I support it

      (I don’t know)

      And I can’t change
      Even if I tried
      Even if I wanted to
      My love
      My love
      My love
      She keeps me warm
      She keeps me warm
      She keeps me warm
      She keeps me warm”

      • vto 20.1.1

        point being?

        • Tracey

          you wrote

          “rappers hate on everyone”

          • vto

            Oh. But they do.

            Doesn’t mean they don’t love on people too.

            Rap is a form of expression that has grown out of the dirt people have had their faces kicked into. It is raw, dirty and powerful and cannot be avoided. That rap is perhaps now pulling out into the fast lane for everyone to see should not surprise….
            …. except to the ignorant fools like Farrar and his type of people, who do not understand the dirt they have shoved people’s heads into the last decades.

  21. Phil 21

    Selective history alert!

    Rap is a form of expression that has grown out of the dirt people have had their faces kicked into.

    All art produced today comes from a wide and varied geneology of sources. You’re right that slavery inspired/produced the genre of Blues, and it is a major component of what we call ‘rap’ today.
    However, rap can also trace its origins to vaudeville and beat-poetry. Both of those artforms grew from very different socio-economic situations than the downtrodden-masses of the caricature of rap in pop-culture.

  22. Pukish Rogue 22

    Traceys on fire! From my pov I don’t really believe he’d really try to shot the PM because hes more then likely a gutless, little gob shite with no courage however hes done well in that hes certainly got a lot of promotion out of it

    The two things that do bother is sleeping with his daughter as revenge, he wouldn’t have the guts to pull the trigger himself but I have no doubt he’d try to sleep with the daughter, the other thing is hes talking about being poor and having nothing except for the 30 000 grand (or however much it was)the bands recieved to promote their music

    However the silence from the left blogs condemning the song was deafening, even now you’ve got people saying its ok because

    a. John Key is evil
    b. Hes encouraging people to vote (apparantly)
    c. That’ll show Thatcher!
    d. Cameron Slater is evil

    • weka 22.1

      Got some links for that last bit?

      No-one thinks this is about @peace attempting to kill Key 🙄

    • karol 22.2

      PR – and the silence from the right on all their documented nastiness, despicable ethics, undermining of democracy, and attempts to manipulate public opinion through covert black ops, etc?

      NB: read the difference between holding politicians to account for the way they exercise power (p34 “Dirty Politics”) and attack politics, on the WO tactics, supported by DPF, Ede, Lusk et al (p36):

      the primary purpose of the attack politics is to embroil the opposition in petty crises and scandals so they cannot get on with promoting their own messages, policies and plans.

      My bold.

      And here we see, as explained in the post above, DPF, WO and their cheer teams trying again to use the very same tactics: focus on the relatively petty song lyrics, to distract from holding members of the government to account for their use of dirty politics for political manipulation and the undermining of democracy.

    • blue leopard 22.3

      No Pukish,

      It is simply that we understand (and especially after Key’s comments on the matter) that when someone refers to ‘John Key’ they are referring to ‘his office’ or the government that he leads.

      Was not impressed by references to Key’s daughter, however there has been an apology, and besides according to you lot, apparently everything’s fair in love and war….and politics.

      Your team warped the rules – I suggest you quit the whining when the same is played against you.

      • weka 22.3.1

        can you please link to the apology bl?

        • blue leopard

          Retraction may have been a better word to use. I read it elsewhere (can’t remember where!) yet they responded very quickly and here it is on their facebook page:

          Now that I have your attention, may I remind you that


          The current PM does not care about these people. He does not care about the growing gap between the rich and the poor in our country. He does not care about the native people of our country. He does not care about the planet we depend upon to survive, the living organism that we as humans are a functioning part of. He does not care about the right we should all have to an education. He only cares about him and his friends.

          I do not want to literally kill this man. I do not wish to have sexual relations with anybody related to him. Let’s not pretend a silly little song ever changed anything. Last I seen famine was still going pretty strong since ‘Heal The World’ came out. It’s just a song. No different from Thatcher era punk. Anyone ever heard “Maggie you’re a cunt”..?

          What’s important is that we ENROL TO VOTE so that we have a chance to select someone to represent us who understands the concept of empathy.

          I’m fed up with this dude. But if you want to vote for him, that’s your choice. Personally, I’m voting Greens but you can vote for whoever you like. You can choose between a whole bunch of different people who represent a whole bunch of different ideologies. That’s the beauty of the political system in NZ.

          Please respect my right to express my disappointment for the leader of our country.



          [my bold]

          Now, imagine if our current government responded so quickly and appropriately to the many, many questions their activities have raised…..

          • weka

            ah ok. I don’t see that as even a retraction. To me it looks like he thinks it’s fine to sing that misogynistic shit, but it he wasn’t talking about himself literally as the person that would fuck the PM’s daughter before killing him.

            • blue leopard

              ‘Retraction: Withdraw (a statement or accusation) as untrue or unjustified’


              The band rapped ‘kill John Key’ and then said they don’t mean it literally
              The band rapped words to the effect that they wanted to have sex with JK’s daughter then said they didn’t want to have sex with anyone related to him.

              This is a retracting their statements ‘as untrue’.

              The bit about ‘misogynistic shit’ is another issue that was not part of the point being raised by PR (and I agree, that hasn’t been retracted.)

              I note again, this band has shown a whole lot more responsiveness than we have got from our current PM over the myriads of questions his government’s [bizzarre and damaging] activities have raised.

              • Tracey

                have they withdrawn the lyrics?

                • blue leopard


                  • Tracey

                    withdraw a statement as untrue or unjustified… have they changed (withdrawn) the lyrics. You are suggesting, I think, that they are explaining the lyrics, isn’t that different to withdrawing them?

                    • blue leopard

                      Oh, I see what you mean.

                      They have withdrawn a possible meaning of the lyrics, made it very clear that the most highly offensive aspect of the lyrics is not what they really intend.

                      More than our PM ever does – just leaves offense and confusion till we get distracted by something else.

                      Conclusion: The rap group are trying to connect with sections of New Zealand that successive governments have created and also have given up on long ago. The rap group made, IMO, a pretty solidly dumb song yet have proven to have behaved a whole lot more responsibly than our current circus-I-mean government.

                    • weka

                      “They have withdrawn a possible meaning of the lyrics, made it very clear that the most highly offensive aspect of the lyrics is not what they really intend.”

                      I don’t follow. Yeah he was using poetic licence and didn’t literally intend to go out and kill the PM. But there is no doubt that his use of the two scenarios (kill the PM and fuck his daughter first) was intentional and nothing he has said since says otherwise. He hasn’t for instance said, sorry, that was a mistake, didn’t mean to say that.

              • weka

                bl, I understand what retraction means, I just disagree that that’s what he has done. He’s simply saying that it’s not him personally that wants to fuck the PM’s daughter, it’s the ‘character’ in the song. He hasn’t retracted anything.

                • blue leopard

                  I disagree -he has not said ‘personally’ he has said ‘literally’.

                  They have retracted the physically dangerous nature of the lyrics – any misunderstanding potentially leading to physical violence has been removed by their response.

                  They have acted responsibly. What a pity our PM doesn’t show similar diligence.

                  • weka

                    Right, but the misogyny doesn’t rely on him wanting to literally fuck the PM’s daughter. It exists in her being objectified in the song’s story, as a thing that has something done to them, and this in a sexual context. I don’t see any understanding of that by @peace, let alone a retraction. He’s just saying to not take it literally. Is metaphorical misogyny ok then?

                    I see what you are saying about him trying to do the right thing, I just don’t see this as a retraction, more a clarification.

                    • blue leopard

                      Ah! I think I see where wires have been crossed. My initial objection was re the implication of Key’s daughter being threatened – not over it being misogynistic therefore what the band retracted removed the objection I had.

                      To be frank, the misogynistic thing didn’t cross my mind. A person in the public sphere’s partner and/or children being used against them to create vulnerability and therefore obedience, is what struck me and that it sounded like rape/danger to someone uninvolved: Stephanie Key.

                      Her safety and innocence (non involvement in the issue) was uppermost in my mind – not her gender.

                      I wouldn’t argue that the choice they picked the daughter over the son wasn’t misogynistic…hmm but then again…. perhaps I might…possibly their homophobia won out over their misogynistic tendencies….they didn’t target the son because they they wouldn’t have wanted to come across as gay (shock, horror!)…..or because they are hetero, so the thought didn’t cross their minds ….or perhaps they are weaklings and didn’t target the son thinking he was bigger than them and they are weeds so thought the daughter would be more easy to target (?!)….or they viewed Key would be more hurt by his daughter being targeted because he might consider her more defenseless…..actually such a choice could have been driven by numerous reasons. The end result certainly doesn’t help reduce rape culture…. Perhaps I should correct my initial statement to I wouldn’t want to be drawn into an argument over misogyny…..

                      I have already agreed, though, what the band said didn’t address any issues around misogyny contained in their lyrics.

                    • weka

                      lolz, ok I’m totally confused now!


                    • blue leopard

                      whoops! sorry ’bout that, lol 🙂

            • RedLogix

              The point is weka – this is a deliberate distraction. For the record rap is definitely not to my taste at all. I don’t think in the sum total this song was at all helpful – but then I’m white, male and too old to even text properly.

              Rap is the voice of a real sub-culture, of real people and it’s intentionally confronting, misogynistic and violent in it’s imagery. It’s their language and we do not own it.

              The political left does not have to rationalise it or get distracted defending it. It arises from the oppression and alienation of a generation shut out by the policies of the right that have impoverished and marginalised whole swaths of people.

              We fought back with words, ideas and playing our role in the political process because we could. We had the skills and capacity to do so; rap was born in a far less privileged world where they picked up the weapons they found lying around. Yes it isn’t pretty, I don’t like it – but I feel zero obligation to apologise for it.

              • weka

                What’s a deliberate distraction? The post about Farrar was so obvious that it’s barely getting comment. Farrar is a paid hack to undermine the left and a huge hypocrite to boot. R0b made a good post and covered the points well. Is there something else to say about that?

                “We fought back with words, ideas and playing our role in the political process because we could. We had the skills and capacity to do so; rap was born in a far less privileged world where they picked up the weapons they found lying around. Yes it isn’t pretty, I don’t like it – but I feel zero obligation to apologise for it.”

                hmm, not really buying that sorry. You seem to be saying that rap is misogynistic because hating on women was one of the only tools to hand. Well that’s probably true in the sense that when you treat people like shit as a class they’ll generally beat on those next to them with less power, so men when they get some power in that situation without being free they will use that power to survive, especially where the dominant system is one of power over. That’s pretty universal. Doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be critiqued though. It’s not about ‘owning language’. It’s about the concepts being expressed. And let’s not pretend that the cultures that rap evolved out of were made up of men alone. Go have a listen to what women from those cultures have to say if you want some voices from inside.

                • RedLogix

                  I’m all for the critique weka. I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

                  • weka


                    I did feel a bit bad that we all ended up talking about the lyrics instead of what a fuckwit Farrar is, which was what the post was about.

                    • adam

                      Let me say again – Thanks for the giggles Weka.

                      I did feel a bit bad that we all ended up talking about the lyrics instead of what a fuckwit Farrar is, which was what the post was about.

                      Nah, misogyny needs to be challenged and ended. And if the crew from @peace change how they write – then, that is a good thing.

                      Actually, I think the worst thing for @peace now is they won’t win the silver scroll award for a dam fine tune they wrote.

                    • weka


                      Now I feel doubly bad, because I believed the fucking MSM that this was a recent release 🙁 My apologies to @peace.

      • Puckish Rogue 22.3.2

        It sure is ok but the game is when the right do something that can be percieved as bad the left will try to make sure the public form the opinion that what National did is bad and when the left do something the right try to do the same thing the only thing you don’t want to do is go too far (and the line does shift)

        Thats all there is to it

        • McFlock

          27% of kids in poverty mean that it’s not a game.

          What we have is a situation where the “right” consistently and habitually do very bad things.
          Then when someone on the left finally does something bad, you try and claim that everyone is as bad as each other.

          Are these rappers connected with the leadership of any left wing party? Because john key (by his own admission) is in personal contact with that suck fuck slater every few weeks. Jason Eade even more often.

          • RedLogix

            No you don’t get it McF – these bad rappers made John Key talk to Slater every few weeks.

            And all of us here at The Standard created the poisonous atmosphere in which poor old Cameron Slater just had to do all those things he did.

            I give up – Giovanni Tiso just does it better than I can.

          • Puckish Rogue

            Thats my point, you say 27% which is a made up number of kids living in relative poverty and now you have to convince the public this is happen and that its Nationals fault

            • McFlock

              Thats my point, you say 27% which is a made up number

              no it’s not

              of kids living in relative poverty

              “relative” doesn’t make it “acceptable”.

              and now you have to convince the public this is happen

              No, they know they’re poor.

              and that its Nationals fault

              No, you fucking s0ciopath, it’s not about “fault”. It’s about fixing the problem. And all we have to do is show that the problem can be fixed – because nats like you have demonstrated that you want it to continue.

              Oh, and by the way – if something is “made up”, then it can’t be “relative”. It must be “non-existent”. By saying poverty in NZ is “relative”, you admit that it is real and measurable, and therefore the numbers are verifiable, real, and in no way “made up”.

              Your lies are interfering with each other again.

        • blue leopard

          @ Puckish

          I believe you are suffering some pretty serious confusion. (Probably due to the shock and ensuing panic of your ‘team’ being so very outed perhaps?)

          You appear to be expecting that the actions of a rap band are held up to the same or similar requirements of accountability to that of a government??

  23. TightyRighty 23

    sexual violence is ok when it’s john key’s family right anthony? [No – the post says the exact opposite. Deleted the rest of your crap comment and banned you for ever. Bye now. r0b]

    • blue leopard 23.1

      Did you actually read the post?

      Of course I and other Standard authors (by all means comment if you disagree folks) condemn lyrics that incite violence, and any and all threats to the children of politicians (who are completely out of bounds). Does this even need saying? Of course it’s wrong, it’s offensive, and it’s damaging to the political climate. – Anthony R0bins [above]

      …Or what part of that statement do you not understand?

    • weka 23.2

      Go R0b!

    • NickS 23.3

      Mostly okay day now made much better 😀

      Cheers r0b

    • RedLogix 23.4

      @ TR.

      You brought this one on yourself. I saw the original comment and edited out the most offensive bit quick smart – but even that didn’t help much.

      This would be a really good personal responsibility moment. (On your own time – the ban stands.)

  24. greywarbler 24

    Off people go on the sexual trail when there is an election to be fought and won. You can’t keep your eyes on the main goal because of a piece of (c)rap similar to others done before. Why can’t you limit yourselves, condemn the whole thing heartily, and concentrate on the other myriad of subjects that still need exposing?

  25. felix 25

    Why all the talk about sexual violence? I thought the song said he wanted to fuck her.

    • Beryl Streep 25.1

      27 August 2014 at 9:24 pm
      Why all the talk about sexual violence? I thought the song said he wanted to fuck her.

      It’s alright folks, he just wants to fuck her and “make his seed” all the way up in her, felix is cool with it so there’s nothing to see here.

      The lyrics are pretty innocuous anyway, how could anyone construe a threat of rape in this happy little political ditty? It’s all just fun and japes according to felix…

      “Going to kill the Prime Minister.
      One of these days
      I’m gonna fuck your daughter
      This poor boy gonna make his seed
      All the way up in your girl
      Hello, Miss Key”

      • adam 25.1.1

        Beryl – It is a wee bit disingenuous to put in the “going to kill the Prime Minister” Line.

        There is a break point after that line; musically, lyrically, and in style.

        I think he has used brag and misogynist language. But not rape. The vocal twist, and change in vocal style are the the important bits – here.

        Indeed if you listen to more hip-hop, it was a brag introduction line commonly used. For example “Girl I want to fuck you bad – Hi my name is …..” Misogynist – yes, fucked up – yes.

        But, I’m sorry, I don’t see any were in those lyrics or delivery, were there is a support of rape. Especially, when there are many examples in Hip-hop and other music which have clear examples of rape. Chris Brown comes to mind. And what his name again… Pharrel and co.

  26. BLiP 26

    National Radio’s new “Blog Watch” feature has a great piece about how news of the song filtered into the media via Cameron Slater, and then pushed along by comments from Matthew Hooton, David Farrar, and Jordan Williams – all telling lies about NZ On Air funding. Classy.

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