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Convoy protest 17/2/22

Written By: - Date published: 6:10 am, February 17th, 2022 - 197 comments
Categories: covid-19 - Tags: , , ,

What does the right to protest actually mean? (micky savage, The Standard)

@Te_Taipo (Te Ranigikaiwhiria Kemara twitter, and yesterday’s thread)

Yesterday’s media:

@Te_Taipo (Te Ranigikaiwhiria Kemara twitter, and today’s thread)


Public servants are reviewing the traffic light system to see if it is fit for purpose as New Zealand battles Omicron. The review will look at the future of the vaccine passes.

The Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet (DPMC), which manages a large part of the Covid response, told the Governance and Administration select committee on Wednesday morning that the system would now be reviewed. It is not clear whether the review is a wholesale review of the efficacy of the framework, or low-level tweaking.

“We are constantly reviewing and advising as things change,” she said.

Barnes said the report would go back to ministers “in the next month or two”.

Covid-19 Omicron outbreak: Government reviewing traffic light system

Update on Police plan to remove vehicles, NZH

Previous links:

NZ Police statement and livestream from last night, about the intention to start removing vehicles blocking roads, and signalling they don’t want to escalate tensions (NZH)

Tame Iti/Freedom Protest (Waatea News audio)

@Te_Taipo (Te Ranigikaiwhiria Kemara twitter, and yesterday’s thread)

Parliament protests: Tragedy or farce? (Nick Bollinger on NZ counter culture, RNZ)

Parliament protest: Negotiation expert pushes for mediation (RNZ)

The occupation of NZ’s parliament grounds is a tactical challenge for police, but mass arrests are not an option ( Lecturer in Criminology, Monash University, The Conversation)

Video of yesterday’s speech from the woman who was arrested last week while naked. (Bryce Edward twitter)

List of reasons for Convoy 2022 NZ (NZ Truckies FB)

Letter of Demand (from protest organisers)

Te Ao Māori News: ‘Just stoking the fire’ – Waititi tells Speaker to end tactics at parliament protest

Stuff: Law experts: Police taking a ‘light-handed’ approach to protesters

Stuff: Police say ‘high probability’ protest could continue for days, weeks after roads cleared

The Spinoff: What is Trevor Mallard playing at?

Newsroom: ‘Splintered realities’: How NZ convoy lost its way

Stuff: Inside the disorienting, contradictory swirl of the convoy, as seen through its media mouthpiece,


197 comments on “Convoy protest 17/2/22 ”

  1. Jenny how to get there 1

    Whose streets?

    Our streets!

    Move the damn cars

    The authorities say the tow truck drivers refuse to move against the protesters.

    One tow truck owner was quoted in the media as saying, "We don't care how much extra money they offer us".

    I could be wrong, but I sense a certain fellow feeliing between the towies and the protesters.

    The Wellington city council has a list of approved contractors. Being on this list is a promise of guaranteed work. if these contractors refuse to do this work they must be struck off the list of approved Wellington City Council contractors.

    The Wellington City Council needs to put these towing contracts out to anyone who will do it, on the condition that the police will provide full security and protection. And yes hazard payment must be offered.

    And with the promise that the first tow truck company that breaks ranks will become the new ‘First Call’, approved towing contractor for the Wellington City Council.

    Let’s see how long these right wing protesters can continue ‘glamping’ on parliament grounds , when they can’t retire to their flash campers.

    • DukeEll 1.1

      Scabs then, you’re condoning scab behaviour on a labour movement site.

      • Barfly 1.1.1

        Scabs? Is there a tow truck drivers union?

      • Jenny how to get there 1.1.2


        'Don't be a Scab. Get the Jab!'


        17 February 2022 at 7:12 am

        Scabs then, you’re condoning scab behaviour on a labour movement site.

        No way is this a labour movement site. This is a well funded scab picket.

        There is not one single trade unionist in the whole of the country that supports or condones, or would ever support this scab picket.

        A vociferous, (and sporadically), violent bunch of scabs are trying to undermine our nation's collective public health effort. These scabs are driven by the same mercenary motives of all scabs.

        Follow The Money

        As Mickey Savage pointed out these scabs are well funded, the funding comes from those who put private profit before public health,.

        They cannot bear, even for one second, a halt in the flow of profits, even to prevent unnecessary human suffering and death.

        • The Chairman

          There is not one single trade unionist in the whole of the country that supports or condones, or would ever support this scab picket.

          Really? Can you back up that assertion?

          It's interesting you say that. Can you remember the Australian builders vaccine protest when they attacked the CFMEU for not backing them?

          Don't you think (if you are correct re union support) similar may be happening here as in lack of official union support?

          • Jenny how to get there

            The Chairman

            17 February 2022 at 2:49 pm

            ….Can you remember the Australian builders vaccine protest when they attacked the CFMEU for not backing them?

            Don't you think (if you are correct re union support) similar may be happening here as in lack of official union support?

            The CFMU wouldn't back scabs and neo-nazis; What a surprise.
            Were any of these scabs actually union members?
            I remember that there was some question over whether any of them were actually union members.

            If these scabs were union members before they attacked the union, they wouldn't be after.

            Any trade union official who publicly attended the protest at parliament to demonstrate their support for this scab-fest would be out on their ear within a week

        • DukeEll

          the standard is a labour movement site?

          Huge claims Jenny. MASSIVE CLAIMS.

          How does the midwifery assocation feel about mandates? Does the transport workers union agree with them? in the face of members worldwide losing their jobs because of the mandates?

          Not too many shiny bums and suits at this protest. It's nice to try and link it to some well funded global conspiracy but corporations. but doesn't that just make you as weak, stupid and malleable as those who are protesting? conspiracy adjacent is conspiracy complicit by the reasoning du jour

          • Jenny how to get there


            17 February 2022 at 3:26 pm

            the standard is a labour movement site?

            You seem to be confused.

            I never said 'The Standard' is a labour movement site?

            I have no idea where you get that idea from

            What I was trying to say., was that;

            The protest camp on parliament's forecourt is not a labour movement site.

            "No way is this [protest camp] a labour movement site. This is a well funded scab picket." J.

          • Jenny how to get there


            17 February 2022 at 3:26 pm

            the standard is a labour movement site?

            Huge claims Jenny. MASSIVE CLAIMS.

            Even if I had of said that, (which I didn't), it wouldn't be as MASSIVE as your CLAIM that in 1981 anti-racism protesters carried baseball bats to protests.

            There are no photos or any proof of any sort that anti-racism protesters carried baseball bats to a protest.

            Despite the thousands of arrests not one was for carrying a weapon of any sort.

            But of course these facts don’t fit your right wing narrative.

            Chairman it is fine that you are right wing, no problem with that.

            But you Sir are a right wing liar. You may believe this lie. You may even be just confused about the facts after years of repetition of this lie. But you are still a liar.

            • DukeEll

              I never made that claim?

              I wasn’t born until 1982. I appreciate the impact those protests made upon New Zealand and live in the shadow of there greatness. But knowledge of it? Only second hand and if one side brought baseball bats to fight batons I’d say right on.

              suspect you are past your use by date, please apologise and gtfo

      • McFlock 1.1.3

        No, not scab behaviour. This isn't a union action, there is no withdrawal of labour to demand better pay and conditions. Oh, and they're abusing actual workers.

    • RosieLee 1.2

      The towing companies are not necessarily siding with the protesters. Many have been threatened and are understandably afraid for what happens after the "protest" has ended.

      • observer 1.2.1

        Exactly. From the Spinoff live updates:

        "Towing operators in the Wellington region spoken to by The Spinoff report a constant barrage of abuse and threats that began as the protest convoy arrived in the city last week, with one operator even reporting having received a call from a participant in the Canadian convoy in support of their New Zealand compatriots.

        “We have been inundated with death threats and threats on our business,” one operator told The Spinoff by phone. “There are some points where we are getting phone calls every minute. They’re just clogging up the phone line so we can’t take jobs.”

        Another company, when reached by phone by The Spinoff, was immediately at pains to stay out of the story, “we don’t want anything in regards to our company… we have had threats, we have had emails. So we don’t want our name mentioned, or anything,” we were told before the call was ended."

        These are workers with easily identifiable names and locations. We're just a bunch of pseudonyms commenting safely on the internet.

        I don't blame them for being scared of the freedom-hating mob. Who would not be?


        • vto

          so a lovely jubbly peaceful caring bunch of protesters then..


          the lovely jubbly ones are hiding behind thugs

          poorly people

        • The Chairman

          Threating people is a crime. Has there been any arrests? Can you link to there even being an investigation launched into these alleged threats?

          Sounds like hearsay to me. Got a towing company that will attest to that assertion?

          • observer

            Yes. In the comments quoted.

            If you think the towing operators are lying, say so. If you think the journalist is lying, say so.

      • Peter 1.2.2

        Let's keep saying it as it is to reflect reality: towing companies threatened and afraid.

        Mildred from the Gardening club might be down there protesting on behalf of her grandchildren because she's been convinced a vaccine will kill them.

        But they're not all Mildreds. Nooses, reference to harming and killing politicians, taking over government are substantial part of what's going on.

      • Jenny how to get there 1.2.3

        From what I know of tow truck drivers; They are no shrinking violets, they face death threats and verbal and even physical abuse from irate members of the public almost on a daily basis.

        If they weren't hard nuts, they wouldn't be in this business.

        I would take the towies claims that they are intimidated by the antivaxxers with a grain of salt.

        Have the police received even one complaint from these poor frightened Towies?

        I doubt it.

        The Wellington City Council need to remove any Towing contractor from their list of approved contractors that refuse to carry out their legal contracted duties.

        If necessary the Wellington City Council need to go outside the area and get out of town towies willing to do this work, and pay them for their traveling expenses.

      • Jenny how to get there 1.2.4

        Hi Rosie, If I drove my car into down town Auckland and parked it illegally in Queen, and then made a death threat against the towie who came to tow me away.

        Would he just leave me alone?

        Like hell he would.

    • Herodotus 1.3

      ”Let’s see how long these right wing protesters can continue“ so what of those that are left wing alternative protestors. As long as you buy into the PR spin that this is only RW you dismiss any valid concerns the group/s may have. From what i have seen in the media, some flags Māori and PI attending , the lifestyles exhibited eg yoga classes and what some are wearing it does not fit into yours and others framing of this protest.

      • Enough is Enough 1.3.1

        That has been my observation over this week as well.

        The most prevalent flags are the United Tribes and Tina Rangatiratanga Flags. Hardly symbols of right wing activism.

        In a strategy to discredit the genuine concerns of the protestors there is a narrative, stemming from the beehive, that this is a group of fringe right wing loons heel bent on killing MPs.

        • observer

          It's not "stemming from the Beehive". It's stemming from silence.

          Do you have a statement from the protesters – or any similar evidence – that they condemn the death threats, and demand (at the very least) that those making them leave, because they are not welcome there?

          I've searched. Haven't found.

      • Robert Guyton 1.3.2

        Right wingers can't be Maori and PI, yoga practitioners and harem-pants-wearers?

        • Barfly

          Not according to my Venn diagram.

          • Robert Guyton

            I feel there's been a drift that way, in latter days, as the lables have become blurred world-wide. I know some harem-pants-wearing yoga-practicing, crystal-bowl ringing, lomi-lomi-delivering folk who were talking about voting ACT at the next election, coz MANDATES!!

            • barry

              Follow the #wellness tag to see what garbage is being fed to people who previously were just a little paranoid about big pharma.

        • Enough is Enough

          They are a cross section of society who feel marginalised because they have chosen not to get the vaccine.

          • DS

            The operative word is "chosen."

            • Enough is Enough

              As is their legal right under section 11 of the New Zealand Bill of rights Act 1990 which says:

              Everyone has the right to refuse to undergo any medical treatment

              The NZBORA didn't go on to say that if you exercise your legal right, you will no longer be permitted to work in your profession, dine in local restaurant, or attend the movies.

              And you still can't work out why those people are feeling a bit pissed off with things at the momeent.

              • DS

                NZBORA doesn't guarantee the right to work, or the right to dine in a local restaurant.

                If you are choosing to endanger society by refusing the vaccination, don't whinge when society chooses to treat you in kind.

              • McFlock

                The NZBORA didn't go on to say that if you exercise your legal right, you will no longer be permitted to work in your profession, dine in local restaurant, or attend the movies.

                I have real concerns about the provenance of information held by people who have apparently read the BORA but never noticed "Right Of Admission Reserved" upon entering a hospitality venue.

            • Jenny how to get there


              Here, here.


              As in; Make your own bed and lay in it.

      • Jenny how to get there 1.3.3


        17 February 2022 at 9:17 am

        …..some flags Māori and PI attending , the lifestyles exhibited eg yoga classes and what some are wearing it does not fit into yours and others framing of this protest.


        It fits all right.
        Nobody should be surprised that hippies and neo-nazis can both share the same platform and even political views. It's all happened before.

        Nazi Hippies: When the New Age and Far Right Overlap

        Both the New Age and the far right are drawn to conspiracy theories

        Jules Evans Sep 4, 2020

        Last week’s rallies in London, Berlin, and Los Angeles against lockdown measures attracted both New Agers and far-right groups. We’ve seen before this overlap between the spiritual movement and the fast-spreading conspiracy theory,….

        …..Some people are astounded that New Age hippies could have any overlap with extremist conspiracy politics. But it happens. This week, I want to look at another period when the New Age overlapped with far-right politics, with disastrous consequences for the world — Germany in the 1920s and ’30s…..


        Germany’s two largest astrological organizations endorsed the Nazi party…..

        Alternative medicine

        Hitler, Hess, Himmler, and many other leading Nazis were into alternative medicine, organic and vegetarian diets, homeopathy, anti-vaxxing, and natural healing. Hess, the deputy führer, opened a center for alternative medical practices in Dresden in 1934

        Wholeness/holism/whole earth/eco-fascism

        The Nazis, like many other Germans, were fascinated by holism, by the idea of “wholeness” for the individual and for society…..


        • joe90

          It’s Neo-Nazism's turn to be appropriated by hippies.

        • Obtrectator

          "Nobody should be surprised that hippies and neo-nazis can both share the same platform and even political views. It's all happened before."

          Sure has. Timothy Leary and G Gordon Liddy hit the lecture circuit together in the 1980s (numerous links to be found via Google).

          • Jenny how to get there

            What we are seeing here is a rejection of the Enlightment, the age of reason and science, that gave birth to the industrial revolution, for a return to a simpler mythical pre-industrial idyl, – that never existed.

            And I can understand why. When we look at all the chemicals and industrial processes poisoning our water and air and even over heating the planet. It is not easy to trust governments and big pharmaceutical corporations.

            The Enlightenment and the scientific insights and technical innovations that it gave us, have been misused there is no mistake about that.

            But that doesn't mean that it is all bad, and that we couldn't do better with the gifts that reason and science technical advance have given us.

            The danger is in throwing out the baby with the bath water.

            The worse danger is the back to nature nativist mythology can be exploited to lead us down some very dark paths indeed.

    • felix 1.4

      Your fascist strikebreaking suggestions won't work Jenny because the towies understand a little thing called solidarity.

      • Jenny how to get there 1.4.1

        "There is no such thing as bad soldiers, only bad generals" Napoleon

        Thank you felix, you have confirmed what I suspected. That the towies refusal to tow these scabs vehicles, has nothing to do with the towies being frightened of them, but of being in agreement with them.

        The Wellington City Council need to step up and give some leadership to their contractors. Step Up, or Step Down!

        The council need to take a hard line on their under performing tow truck contractors, and inform them that refusing to carry out their agreed duties, will see them permanently removed from the Council's preferred contractor list. If the tow truck contractors continue to refuse to take these jobs, the Council will put these contracts out to open tender, on the understanding that the first of the smaller tow companies that breaks ranks will be permanently placed at the top of the list for first call.

  2. john2 2

    what is the situation with vaccine mandates in NSW & Victoria?

    I think they may still be in place.

  3. Robert Guyton 3

    It is wrong, of course, to dismiss all the protesters as conspiracy theorists, but they’re all conspiracy-adjacent.

    "It is wrong, of course, to dismiss all the protesters as conspiracy theorists, but they’re all conspiracy-adjacent. Nuremberg codes, global government, a hoax virus, human microchips, genocidal bioweapons – the language is sprinkled across the signage at parliament and online. The man behind the protesters’ media channel of choice, Counterspin, propagates all of those brain worms. He took a moment yesterday to say that the moon landings were a hoax. On the outer fringes, a handful of protest supporters postulated that the New Zealand government had engineered the weather in order to unleash a tempest at parliament. "


    • weka 3.1

      This is the political point that the hippies need to learn. Same with the issues of the far/alt right and nazis.

  4. Sanctuary 4

    Patience amongst people affected by these protests is wearing very thin. People – especially the middle class – ordinarily happily defer to the state the monopoly of legal violence. But if citizens conclude the police are incapable of enforcing order then people will take the law into their own hands and vigilantism is the next escalation, which I would expect to start happening next week.

    The police are clueless on what to do next, except to be routinely humiliated by far right agent provocateurs and mystical fanatics. Sooner or later, in that case, locals will coalesce and start to do the polices damn job for them.

    • weka 4.1

      what would you have the police do at this point?

      • Sanctuary 4.1.1

        Well they've totally got themselves in a pickle, that's for sure.

        I am no policing expert, but I doubt the status quo is acceptable for a period of months so I guess sooner or later the batons will come out?

      • Blade 4.1.2

        We may be about to find out soon after the security committee meeting in parliament.

      • Ad 4.1.3

        Treat them like a village:

        once you've towed their cars and let Wellington get on with itself, set up a social welfare office on the Parliamentary driveway, entice those who can into jobs, check on their welfare, keep chipping away at their influencers, break up any fights, arrest errant fools, and for the others buy them free air tickets or ferry tickets home.

        The stench straight into Parliament has got to be the purest metaphor possible for the policy mess that this government has created.

        Hell we're about to receive 150 new refugees who will get full wraparound support. Do the same for citizens.

        • Just Saying

          Wow, I can post again.

          Thank you, Ad.

          Excellent post.

          I've been waiting for the civil unrest for a few months now. And I've been afraid of what has not been seen or understood. If Posters on TS are representative of the middle class 'nice', (but not towards 'those' people) its chilling.

          We are dangerously divided in NZ. We have little insight into each others hearts and minds. Thinking we know when we can only see 'cardboard cut-outs' of the scary, stigmatised other. This isn't end-able with force. The end-of-tether dissent is not limited to this protest.

          You probably don't agree with much of what I say, but I appreciate your common-sense humanity, in looking for solutions. And your insight.

          The times are a changing.

        • McFlock

          I reckon the towing will be a spark for violence. The non-peaceniks in the crowd will jump in, and with more than twerking and coconut oil.

          It's one of those escalation thresholds – as soon as they tow, it's an escalation into actually doing something about the obstruction to the people who live there. That will validate an increased response in the minds of fuckwits who already felt empowered to threaten hanging and assault passers-by.

      • Obtrectator 4.1.4

        If need be it'll be taken out of the hands of the police altogether, with enforcement of a more drastic nature courtesy of the Defence Force. And that could involve commandeering tow-trucks from wherever and camouflaging them (maybe even fitting false number-plates) before sending them into action. A frightful prospect, such a degree of escalation, but regular folks will only stand for so much for so long.

    • mauī 4.2

      I thought you said the protest would be removed about a week ago?

  5. Ross 5

    Yesterday’s Covid cases and their vaccination status compared to the previous day’s. All figures were sourced from the Health Ministry’s website, which provides daily updates:


    (It’s unclear why the number of cases of those partially vaccinated would have decreased in 24 hours. The total number of partially vaccinated cases that have been hospitalised also decreased – weird.)


    If the main purpose of vaccine mandates is to reduce the spread of the virus, it’s not working. That’s because fully vaccinated people are being infected in far greater numbers than are the unvaccinated, and are a source of transmission. The protesters in Wellington might be the biggest rabble since Taine Randell’s All Blacks, but they know bullshit when they see it.


    When some commentators say: “New Zealand has done brilliantly during Covid”, they have a short memory (conveniently, they ignore all of the related costs). New Zealand did brilliantly in 2009, but without any lockdowns, vaccine mandates or passes. We did so without borrowing billions of dollars, which will probably see cuts to health, education and welfare in the future. How do we feel about that?

    In 2009, people weren’t fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. Healthy, working people weren’t confined to their homes. We didn’t need Government handouts. We accepted that life imposes risks, and that the costs of taking a particular course of action can outwiegh the benefits. We’ve come a long way in a decade.

    It’s time to end the vaccine mandates.



    [I can’t see any of either your figures or your quotes in the two links you provided, so I’ve deleted those bits. Two things:

    1. you have to always make it easy for readers and mods to see your sources. Each time you quote, put the link directly beneath the quote. If you are pulling figures from MoH website, you must provide the exact link to where you got that from, and a signal to where in the page it is (MoH pages often contain a lot of information).
    2. I just wasted ten minutes of my busy morning checking, deleting and writing this note. I’m struggling to see why I should do that next time as opposed to deleting the whole thing. You’ve been in these conversations a lot, pay attention to the directions I am giving you and others and you won’t lose your comments. I am very specific in what I say. If it’s not clear, ask – weka]

    • Sanctuary 5.1

      Misinformation. Should be deleted.

      The Standard has been infected by anti-vaxxers posting nonsense like the above post- possibly part of an systematic SM assault organised on the likes of Telegram and Facebook.

      It is exhausting refuting the nonsense posted, and I have day job anyway. IMHO the time has long come to simply delete post like the above with a note of misinformation.

    • mickysavage 5.2

      You repeatedly misrepresent the reality that the vaccination program is to decrease the incidence of people being hospitalised and dying.

      The figures for this week on hospitalisations, 57% were vaccinated, 14% partially vaccinated, 18% unvaccinated and 11% were under the age of 12. Given that vaccination rates are over 95% this clearly shows the virtue of being vaccinated.

      • Ross 5.2.1


        Take off your rose tinted glasses. From yesterday's case figures, 910 were fully vaccinated while 41 were unvaccinated (among the vaccine-eligible). The vaccine mandates are simply not working. I've asked you and others to make the case for vaccine mandates and the silence has been deafening.

        Play the ball, not the man.

        • mickysavage

          “Kiwis who remain unvaccinated are about 12 times more likely to go to hospital with Omicron than people with two or more vaccine doses, new data suggests.

          And they are 27 times more likely to end up in hospital compared with those who have had a third booster shot.

          The data also comes with a warning for the 1.44 million New Zealanders overdue for a booster shot: overseas research suggests their protection against symptomatic Omicron infection has waned to about 30 per cent effectiveness.”


          • Blazer

            Seems a contradiction there.

            '12 times more likely to go to hospital with Omicron than people with 'two or more vaccine doses'

            And they are 27 times more likely to end up in hospital compared with those who have had a third booster shot.

            Presumeably more than two is at least 3=a booster.

            • mickysavage

              I suspect they meant to say “one or more”. Even one shot provides some improved protection.

              • Blazer

                Clearly 'one or more' would still be a contradiction.

                • McFlock

                  No contradiction.

                  "x or more" is a set that includes x+2.

                  It's not a report of unvaccinated vs discrete categories of vaccination. Or it’s a mistype and it’s 2 doses only. Either way, you’re grasping.

                  • Blazer

                    .Funny guy….X is stated as two…….you are the one …grasping…crystal clear and unambiguous for the average msm plum…yeah ..right!no

              • Enough is Enough

                The words "or more" should be missing. Its simply 2 doses.

          • Nic the NZer

            Quite disappointing from stuff actually.

            Across none of the analysis have they controlled for age, and they have no where highlighted that the age controlled statistics are very likely (read almost certainly) more favourable for vaccination again.

            The bit about slightly more people being infected among vaccinated than unvaccinated almost certainly reverses when age is controlled for. But will now instead be used to claim vaccinations encourage spread.

            In all this data, due to a Simpson's Paradox, the age controlled rates are the ones you get, even if you expect the overall rates.


          • Tricledrown

            Thanks mickey the antivaxxers will use a skerrit of truth to push the big lie.

            Not to mention opening borders just before Xmas National pushed to open up our borders.

            Then omricon.

            Now another variant could emerge and early opening would destroy the only big advantage that we have.

            Patience is required the antivaxxers have no patience.

        • vto

          "From yesterday's case figures, 910 were fully vaccinated while 41 were unvaccinated. The vaccine mandates are simply not working."

          1. That doesn't follow. Has it occurred to you that maybe if nobody had been vaccinated then the cases may have been 9,100 rather than 910? doh

          2. You clearly dont understand the purpose of the vaccines.

          3. Do you realise that if NZ had followed the type of approach you advocate then we would have had death rates similar to the US, UK etc, which is 12,000 more dead kiwis? 12,000 dead.

          4. If ever there was an example of the internet confusing the world, this pandemic is it

          • Ross

            maybe if nobody had been vaccinated then the cases may have been 9,100 rather than 910?

            Do you realise that if NZ had followed the type of approach you advocate then we would have had death rates similar to the US, UK etc, which is 12,000 more dead kiwis? 12,000 dead.

            Hmm you're talking hypotheticals while I'm discussing actual numbers in the context of vaccine mandates. And Shaun Hendy discussed 80,000 deaths, so it's interesting that you've cited only 12,000. Why the sharp decline?

            You still haven't made the case for vaccine mandates.

            • vto

              No, it is you hasn't shown anything, particularly your claim that 910 vax v 41 unvax means that the system isn't working.

              It was your claim


            • lprent

              Hmm you’re talking hypotheticals while I’m discussing actual numbers in the context of vaccine mandates. And Shaun Hendy discussed 80,000 deaths, so it’s interesting that you’ve cited only 12,000. Why the sharp decline?

              Dear gormless dimwit – because there are multiple estimates from multiple people, each giving a range of possibilities.

              If you cherry pick (ie lie by omission) as you are doing and pick the one that says that there are no control measures, then you get large numbers. If instead you look at the maximum control measures, you get smaller numbers.

            • Peter

              Referencing the 80,000 in the Hendy numbers and what that was about as you have done is either dumb, wilfully dishonest or malicious. Or the lot.

              Clods are at the mercy of such bullshit and propaganda which misrepresent the numbers.

              Maybe you read the report and simply didn't have the wherewithal to comprehend it.

        • lprent

          Hey idiot,

          I’ve asked you and others to make the case for vaccine mandates and the silence has been deafening.

          You are asking to prove a negative. Lets see how well you do.

          Let us go the other way. Prove to me that that there is a case for removing vaccine mandates that doesn’t cause increased cases, hospitalisation, and deaths. Prove to me that not having vaccine mandates doesn’t reduce the amount of time taken off work for workplaces.

          Play the ball, not the man.

          If you act like an idiot – then expect to be treated like one.

          • Ross

            If you act like an idiot – then expect to be treated like one.

            I thought play the ball, not the man was pretty clear. Mental note: I must be clearer in future!

            [lprent: The moderators and authors on this site set the policy and rules on this site. You do not. Including how other commenters may respond to you.

            Since you obviously didn’t bother to think through my bloody obvious gentle hint and why I made it, I will give a few weeks to read the policy and to ponder why people making comments don’t get to impose rules on others on this site. It is the second item about Darwin awards in Banning.

            Banned two weeks. Looks like an overlapping ban. It pays to keep track of moderators or other commenters warning you about behaviour liable to attract moderators. ]

        • weka

          see my mod note. If I see you making a claim of fact without a link again I will ban you. Count this as a warning.

          In this case, you make a direct claim about what is on the MoH website. Link to this now or expect to be moderated.

          • Ross


            You will see that I provided two links to the MoH site. One document discusses the 2009 influenza pandemic in New Zealand.

            The other link cites yesterday’s case numbers including vaccination status of those contracting Covid. The MoH updates these numbers every day. So the figure of 910 fully vaccinated cases is easily calculated – deduct the current daily figures from the previous day’s figures. You can try it yourself when today’s figures are published. Compare today’s figures with yesterday’s figures. I’m happy to send you details of the last two days’ figures as I’ve copied them directly from the MoH site. You can see that the MoH publishes the current daily figures only.

            I wasn’t aware that anyone could be banned for stating the facts.

            [I don’t care. The onus is on you to make your point clearly and provide direct evidence (quote, explanation, and link), not a link and expecting people to mindread what you did. You seem to think that what matters here is what you think about moderation and evidence. It’s not. What matters here is that a) you follow moderator instructions b) you stop wasting moderator time.

            I’ve just had a look at the Moderation thread in the back end and you’ve had multiple warnings, including for ignoring or arguing about moderation.

            I asked you today to link and you haven’t. Instead you’ve come back with more argument about moderation as well as making shit up about moderation. You are now banned 4 weeks, which is double the last ban you had. Expect subsequent bans to double each time until one of us gets sick of it and gives you a long ban.

            Read this post https://thestandard.org.nz/some-notes-on-moderation/. Most of your bans are for two things. One is failing to link or back up when requests (and again, today, one of the things I deleted was a quote without a link). Two is wasting moderator time. It’s the same today. You are free to keep ignoring moderation but you cannot do that and keep commenting privileges on TS – weka]

        • Craig H

          Not sure that really addresses his actual point around hospitalisations – obviously there aren't that many unvaccinated people remaining, but they are still very disproportionately represented in the hospitalisations.

        • KJT

          The "case has been made". Conclusively!

          Not our fault you were asleep, or absent, when probability was covered in your High school maths class.

    • vto 5.3

      "In 2009, people weren’t fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. Healthy, working people weren’t confined to their homes. We didn’t need Government handouts. We accepted that life imposes risks, and that the costs of taking a particular course of action can outwiegh the benefits. We’ve come a long way in a decade."

      What a complete load of bollocks

      You are clearly someone who was not impacted by the gfc

      one example "We didn't need government handouts". Have you forgotten about the RDGS which paid out $$billions??? South Canterbury Finance alone paid out $1.7billion to wealthy investors when their greedy investments failed. Rorted by Bill English and John Key.

      You're full of it

      • Pataua4life 5.3.1

        Your comprehension ain't so flash VTO. Ross was talking about the Flu epidemic and you go off on a rant about the GFC and SCF.

        Please try to read and take a breath and think next time.

        • vto

          you might be right

          the gfc and associateds compared to today's situation have been on my mind, hence rant sparked by date

          mandates left right and centre

          as always have been

          and always will be

    • weka 5.4

      mod note.

  6. Reality 6

    The Standard obviously has posts with a range of views and opinions, but that Ross person is like a kid in the playground strutting around trying to be more important.than the other kids.

  7. Robert Guyton 8

    No one need give a toss, about Ross.

    Thinking about the dismissive response from protesters to Trevor Mallard's use of music to drive them from the Beehive lawns and wondering at their insouciance – have they never heard of Long Manilow???

    • Blazer 8.1

      I've heard of Long John Baldry….frown

    • weka 8.2

      No one need give a toss, about Ross.

      Have a think about how many people are reading the comments in this thread, as opposed to commenting. What people say here matters.

  8. Adrian 9

    Ross. There is no polite way to say it, you are a dishonest, lying , unintelligent fucking idiot. Hendry’ s estimation of 80,000 deaths was if NOTHING was done, no lockdowns, no masks, no interventions and no treatments including vaccinations, which at the time were thought to be not viable in the near future. The estimates were based on data from only a few weeks of what turned out to be piss- poor responses in New York, Italy and elsewhere.

    Fuck off back to your equally deluded imbecilic mates in their Fecal Sandpit and carry on writing bulletins on how the Government manipulated the weather to produce a cyclone.

  9. Ross 10

    There is no polite way to say it, you are a dishonest, lying , unintelligent fucking idiot.

    Adrian, I do wish you'd stop beating around the bush and tell us what you really think.

    • weka 10.1

      If I come back later and see you are misrepresenting data, I will be moderating.

      • Ross 10.1.1

        The data I’ve used comes directly from the MOH site. Feel free to check the figures from the last two days. I have a copy if you wish to view.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha

          I've done to your statement what you do to data – misrepresentation and sins of omission etc:

          The data I’ve used comes directly from the MOH site. Feel free to check the figures from the last two days. I have a copy if you wish to view.

          "Hate comes directly from the MOH. Feel free to die cop, I wish. "

          <— a verbatim quote from Ross!!! OMG

  10. observer 11

    We know their assorted causes are varied (to put it politely) but there's a general claim – made on here too – that vaccine mandates are the unifying theme.

    Has there been a specific demand to end vaccine mandates applied by private business?

    Here's an example of a major company introducing a vaccine requirement for their employees, and taken up by 99.8% of the workers. Reported yesterday:


    Does that have to end? Given that it's a private employer, how would that be made to happen?

  11. mpledger 12

    I see in stuff that the police association chief says the occupation is going to last 3 months. https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/wellington/300519498/live-police-association-chief-says-parliament-protest-expected-to-last-three-months-as-it-enters-its-10th-day

    Looks like I am working from home for 3 months! Having sent me home, I don't see how my employer can require me to go back if the circumstances haven't changed.

    • satty 12.1

      One would hope, that after all the cars are towed away into a secured area, those cars can only be retrieved when all protest related costs are being paid. This includes, for example, all the wages of the people working at the Backbencher Pub, which had to close because of threats and intimidation.

  12. Why is all this stuff from Ross on the Convoy thread? Should be on OM.

  13. Peter 14

    We've heard the stuff about the 'lovely party atmosphere' and seen the clips of the yoga, the medical centre and food being delivered. Oh yes, it's 2022 Hippie Town, all love and caring for everyone hurt by nasty mandates. (We've heard the car stuff too, the leave them-tow them-smash them sides to that.)

    Thomas Coughlan in the Herald paints his picture of the crowd.

    “I have walked through the protesters on five of the days since it began, talking to anyone who would chat. Like many journalists, I've found some protesters friendly, fair, and likeable, and others to be intimidating and anti-social. Stories of MPs, most recently the accounts of Sarah Pallett and Steph Lewis, show an even more intimidating side to the protest.

    Many protests I've witnessed in person – Occupy and the anti-Trans-Pacific Partnership marches, for example – have had an occasionally intimidating conspiracy fringe. The Parliament occupation is different in that the conspiracy fringe is not so much a fringe, but a large portion, and possibly a majority, of the protesters. Indeed, the protest has itself grown out of a conspiracy theory about vaccines.

    No occupation that I'm aware of has made such violent and such frequent threats against MPs, passing workers and schoolchildren. People have protested against governments regulating away their jobs since time immemorial, but very few have brought swastikas and nooses along for the ride.”

    Our daughter who works in the vicinity talked last night of the harassment her workmates are getting about mask wearing while going past the area and having their masks grabbed at. Ah, the good old 'freedom' groups eh, can't handle others exercising freedom.

    • observer 14.1

      Well said. (And Coughlan is no shill for the government, quite the opposite in "normal" political coverage).

      At the top of this thread the OP has a link to Te_Taipo, which goes into some detail about the various groups there. Recommended, especially for those who are still in denial.

  14. joe90 15

    Just ordinary New Zealanders.


  15. Blade 16

    Geez, I would love to be a fly on the wall at this meeting.

    Reality v Politics. Who will win?

    Musings: Who will be ducking for cover when, and if, this present protest finishes?


    • Blade 16.1

      I think reality won…Trevor has had a change of heart after being told straight by the

      intelligence community would be my guess.

      Meanwhile the PM was in Rotorua. She's our leader, and she isn't fronting this crisis.

      What that means is the crisis has bypassed the PM. That ain't good for public perception, especially if removing the the vechicles or protesters turns to custard.

      I bet Jacinda doesn't have a clue about the hole she is digging herself.

  16. Ross 17

    There's been 9026 fully vaccinated cases of Covid between 16 August 2021 and today. There were 7820 cases up to yesterday and 6910 up to the day before. So, between Tuesday and Wednesday, the number increased by 910, and between yesterday and today the number has increased by 1206. (All figures come from the Ministry of Health's website, which provides updated figures daily.)

    I expect Government politicians to be standing on the steps of Parliament later this week with a contrite mea culpa.

    COVID-19: Case demographics | Ministry of Health NZ

    • joe90 17.1

      How many times do you have to be told that it's the relative percentages, not the raw numbers that matter. Fucking simpleton.

      • Nic the NZer 17.1.1

        No, Ross is definitely saying your odds of testing positive increase on a Tuesday.

      • Poission 17.1.2

        So what are you saying Joe,the absolute numbers map ( by translation) quite nicely the absolute population to new cases.


        The hospitilisations map to expectations (there being a lag) and future hopspitilsation will be offset in the large number of infections into naive reservoirs such as the under 12's.

        • joe90

          The claim is that vaccines are moderate in preventing infection, more effective again at preventing symptomatic infections and greatly reduce hospitalisation.

          So, how many of the raw number are asymptomatic, vaccinated cases detected via testing of household/high risk contacts and how many of the unvaccinated cases were detected because they were symptomatic?

    • GreenBus 17.2

      Ross – you are double jabbed, with booster next I guess?

      You continuously rant anti vax propaganda (your not alone)

      Why did you get yourself vaccinated??

      • Barfly 17.2.1

        "You continuously rant anti vax propaganda"

        Yes because he's a troll please stop feeding him

        • GreenBus

          I was going to call Ross a hypocrite, like many others. I just find it strange all these people get jabbed then bang on about how bad.

    • Macro 17.3

      As has been said many times previously "it's the relative percentages, not the raw numbers that matter."

      Here are the latest figures for NZ to date as reported by the MoH.

      "Since January 22, when the first Omicron case was detected in the community, double vaccinated cases are ten times less likely to require hospitalisation than unvaccinated cases – 4 percent of unvaccinated cases have required hospitalisation and 0.4 percent of fully vaccinated cases have required hospitalisation."


      my bold

      • Pataua4life 17.3.1

        What garbage. Percentages don't fill up hospital wards raw number do. And the results show that even if you double and triple jabbed you can end up in hospital.

        The only way to prevent hospital overloading under omicron is to build more capacity in the hospitals. Which this govt did jack shit.

        You spread false information

  17. observer 18

    "They're a typical cross-section of the NZ public" is one of the more ludicrous claims made for the anti-mask mob. Fortunately we now have data provided by the protesters themselves:

    • Pataua4life 18.1

      So you define a person by how they vote. Maybe you should do it by colour, religion, even sex.

      What a twat.

      Let's call it voteism and you can be a voteist.

      • observer 18.1.1

        So you define a person by how they vote.

        Elections literally do that. Which produces governments.

    • Pataua4life 18.2

      Lets apply your rule to Parliament shall we.

      It is currently over represented in the LBGQTIWHATEVER community and Maori as well.

      See how your argument sounds like something a Nazi would say.

  18. observer 19

    I've suggested a few times on here that anti-mandate campaigners should form a party and test their support. Looks like it's going to happen, according to Matt King:


    This is actually good news, participating in the democratic process is much better than rejecting it.

    I don't think they'll have much success, with unity (lack of) being the main obstacle. But we'll see.

    • Ad 19.1

      Forming a successful political party doesn't determine whether a protest is right or wrong, or even whether it was successful.

      We've never had a women's party, a farmer-anti-climate-change regulation party, a euthenasia party, or a gay party, or an intersex party, and only occasionally a Maori party. But they've all been successful movements.

      • observer 19.1.1

        Because people campaigned to influence existing parties' policies, and other internal issues like candidate selection.

        • Ad

          Sometimes. Sometimes they decided to take thousands and march the length of the country until the elected people listened. Sometimes they occupied public spaces of all kinds. Sometimes they held up the entire economy on the wharves for months.

          But forming a political party wasn't a measure of the rightness of their cause, or even their effectiveness.

          • observer

            "Rightness" is inevitably subjective, so not much point debating that.

            "Effectiveness" should be pretty clear in this case, as per King's statement. The problem for this putative party is that they may be campaigning against something that doesn't exist by the next election.

            • Ad

              King's effort will likely just get folded into the Act tent like the rest of the wee dears in Seymour's pack.

              With Mallard now seeking a common cross-Parliamentary position I'd say their effectiveness is beginning already.

              Ardern won't get away with scolding them for months. And for this kind of protest where coherence isn't high, if Ardern doesn't like one set of their principles, they have others.

  19. JO 20

    The next Mattiah approacheth across the field of fevered dreams? Does he know his Shakespeare, did he study the Scottish play at school, perchance?

    Is this a dagger which I see before me,

    The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.

    I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.

    Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible

    To feeling as to sight? or art thou but

    A dagger of the mind, a false creation,

    Proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain?

    I see thee yet, in form as palpable

    As this which now I draw.

    Thou marshall'st me the way that I was going;

    And such an instrument I was to use.

    Mine eyes are made the fools o' the other senses,

    Or else worth all the rest; I see thee still,

    And on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood,

    Which was not so before.

  20. Grey Area 21

    Sounds like the NZDF is following the towies' lead.


    Defence Minister Peeni Henare says the cars and campervans of protesters blockading Parliament will be wrecked if the army is called in to clear the streets.

    "Many of the Defence Force towing vehicles aren't actually towing vehicles, they're salvage vehicles. So if one of them were to pick up a car, it would wreck the car,” Henare told media on Thursday.

    "We were asked to bring bigger, heavier vehicles because of the large vehicles, the camper vans etc [at the protest].

    "But I've seen those in operation they literally drag them on to the back of a truck, which would ultimately wreck their [the protesters'] gear. That's what I've been advised."

    Who is advising him? Yes salvage trucks are different to tow trucks. We had cause to have our ute taken to the dealers for repairs recently. Salvage truck backed up to it, the tray tipped down, the ute was winched on (without being wrecked) and away it went. No probs.

    Aren't the NZDF engineers capable of the same?

    • Ad 21.1

      The NZDF should not be involved against these civilians in any form.

      Defence Act 1990 No 28 (as at 28 October 2021), Public Act 9 Use of Armed Forces to provide public service or assist civil power – New Zealand Legislation


      No part of the Armed Forces shall be used to provide assistance to the civil power in the circumstances described in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (4) except in accordance with an authority given by the Prime Minister or another Minister under that subsection.


      Where the Prime Minister or, if the Prime Minister is unavailable, the next most senior Minister available is satisfied, on information supplied by the Commissioner of Police or a Deputy Commissioner of Police,—




      that there is in New Zealand an emergency in which one or more persons are threatening to kill or seriously injure, or are causing or attempting to cause the death of or serious injury to, any other person, or are causing or attempting to cause the destruction of or serious damage to any property; or


      that such an emergency is imminent; and


      that the emergency cannot be dealt with by the Police without the assistance of members of the Armed Forces exercising powers that are available to constables,—

      the Prime Minister or the other Minister may authorise any part of the Armed Forces so to assist the Police in dealing with the emergency."

      No emergency has been called. I would like to see Ardern put up a Cabinet paper saying that weeing on the front lawn was an emergency that the Police couldn't cope with. The Police are doing a good job and should not be talking to the NZDF.

      • McFlock 21.1.1

        I agree that the NZDF shouldn't be used against the protest unless it all turns to crap.

        But using the army as towies isn't exercising the powers of a constable. Clearing the roads could come under performing a public service. Doesn't even need to be in an emergency – especially if the cops protect them like they would a towie.

        9.(1) Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, the Armed Forces may be used in New Zealand or elsewhere—

        (a) to perform any public service; or

        (b) to provide assistance to the civil power in time of emergency.

        • weka

          that seems pretty clear.

        • Ad

          Public service in that sense is usually ceremonial, like ANZAC Day. Not this.

          No one has called an emergency. It's not even a civil defence callout.

          We are a long way from it turning to crap.

          The PM just thinks it's untidy on the front lawn like Trev.

          • McFlock


            Community support is not just about emergencies – it’s about being a good community partner. The Army has worked with district health boards and undertaken free outreach dental care in rural New Zealand communities, targeting areas with limited health care.

            Stream cleaning in Upper Hutt.

            Helping in the cleanup after the West Coast dump got eroded away.

            Sounds like public service outside of emergencies to me.

            • weka

              Bridge building

              The New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) will help rebuild South Westland’s Waiho Bridge, which was washed away by floodwater caused by heavy rain last week.

              Lieutenant Colonel Terry McDonald, the Commanding Officer of the 2nd Engineer Regiment, said 18 personnel from the 2nd Engineer Regiment would be working with the New Zealand Transport Agency and engineering and construction company Downer New Zealand to replace the bridge.

              The New Zealand Army engineers would be deployed for the duration of the project, Lieutenant Colonel McDonald said.

              It is great to contribute our professional expertise to support government agencies responding to communities that need our assistance.


              My emphasis.

  21. Ad 22

    So yesterday that purse-mouthed fool of a Prime Minister was scolding the leader of Act for deigning to talk to the protesters. And the National leader piled in as well.

    Speaker asks for cross-party support in effort to talk with protesters (1news.co.nz)

    Now Speaker Mallard has asked for full cross-Party support to do the same.

    Looking forward to these fake lefties complaining about yelling, wees on the lawn and car parking having to deal with actual political protesters.

    Do some actual representation you feckless weaklings.

    • observer 22.1

      It's not quite as you have described it.

      Speaker Trevor Mallard, Chair of the Parliamentary Service Commission:

      "Following discussions of the Parliamentary Service Commission, I have been authorised to make the following statement of the view of all parties in Parliament.

      "There will be no dialogue with protesters currently occupying the Parliamentary Precinct and surrounding areas until the protest returns to one within the law, including the clearing of all illegally parked vehicles that are blocking streets, the removal of unauthorised structures, and the cessation of the intimidation of Wellingtonians.

      "We note that there is a history of Parliamentarians attending peaceful protests or hearing from the leaders of groups who are at Parliament peacefully."


      That's basically Mallard doing what he should have done before Manilow: consulting and getting agreement from all parties. That's Parliament, not the government – which is as it should be.

    • Cricklewood 22.2

      Would it be wrong of me to think that Jacinda told Trev off so he's issuing a big fuck you?

      • observer 22.2.1

        Who to?

        He's got all parties (including ACT) to agree the camp must go, before any talks. That's stronger than Seymour's position.

        the removal of unauthorised structures

        is pretty clear.

        • observer

          Luxon's follow-up statement is strange:

          "The gathering at Parliament includes people showing a flagrant disregard for the law – blocking off streets, using drugs and abusing Wellingtonians. Seeing children used as tools to spread misinformation has been heartbreaking.

          "This needs to stop. National is the party of law and order and I will not be meeting with the protesters while this behaviour continues."

          (emphasis added)

          Yeah, Chris. That's the issue here. Weed.

    • Patricia Bremner 22.3

      That sneaky wee weasel Seymour was looking for personal agrandizement and votes. He will need to vie with King .

      Wow Ad, would you talk to those delightfully co-operative people? In the same vein?

      “Hey you muddled headed selfish shites who have no regard for others in a Pandemic? What do you mean “it’s all a scam?’

      What would you say to "do some representation" without appearing to condone their false or dangerous narratives?

    • DS 22.4

      Because dialogue with two year-olds throwing a temper tantrum is so productive.

  22. McFlock 23


    I ain't no big city political science lecturer, but maybe if you are part of multiple vaguely named non-partisan groups that do nothing but complain that the progressives are too woke and all your fellow travellers are conservatives maybe you're not actually non-partisan?

    • weka 23.1

      Is Bryce Edwards part of those groups? I wouldn't have thought so.

      • McFlock 23.1.1

        fair call, no idea which particular groups Ng is referring to. I know I've seen his name somewhere with strange company, can't recall where. My bad.

    • Ad 23.2

      So what if they are partisan?

      What a tool for exclaiming that minor folds of irony will dissolve a protest.

  23. Peter 24

    Does anyone know if the David Obeda in the Joe 90 post, "After exposing the freemason network of filth … these filthy pedos have their hidden hand everywhere … we are going to take them all down," is the same David Obeda of 'Tartaria'?

    I don't know if him being a 501 was anything to do with drugs, brain destroying drugs, but the video is one of several that paint a clear picture of his mental state.

    Incredible. Yes, he does seem to be of the calibre to join Alp and Arps in dictating how the country should be run.

  24. McFlock 25

    damn, talk about burying the lede.

    Stuff travel news headline: Passengers say airlines are 'powerless' against those flouting face mask rules.

    Suspicious number of people on planes have mask exemptions. Some are just wankers. Airports powerless. End of the long article (my italics added):

    Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said officials from the Ministry of Health, Commerce and Consumer Affairs, and disability groups have been working with stakeholders to make the mask exemptions process more robust.

    “Unfortunately, some people are cheating the system, with little thought of others,” he said.


    “The rules seek to balance the needs of frontline staff, who are confronted every day by people who might not have true mask exemptions, with the rights of the disabled community and others who have legitimate reasons as to why the use of a mask is not possible.

    “I understand officials will be going back to sector groups with proposals this week.

    Looks like pretty soon a sticker and a lie won't cut it.

    • Graeme 25.1

      In the early days of the 'exemption certificates' we were getting whole families coming into the gallery with their little laminated card on a lanyard. Strangely some of them wanted to pray that we'd be delivered from our ignorance.

      At least they were more polite than the ones who just went full on abuse that we were wearing a mask and expecting them to as well. Made us seriously consider closing at weekends.

  25. UncookedSelachimorpha 26

    I don't really agree with Jacinda Ardern and others continually complaining about the protest's “illegality”. Some protests do drift into the illegal (e.g. passive resistance), without being morally wrong.

    I would rather Ardern and co focused on the lack of a justifiable moral cause for the protest. Much of it is based on lies, selfish thinking and disinformation (vaccines are a bioweapon, vaccines are not vaccines, vaccines are super dangerous, QAnon, masks cause cancer, covid doesn't exist, Covid is harmless, Jews, InfoWars, 5G, "Nuremberg", some nazis were OK, to hell with the elderly and people with compromised health, Ardern is a communist, my rights are above everyone else’s, the media all lie all the time etc). That is the big problem and what should be called out.

    • McFlock 26.1

      Yeah, fair comment. Not many people give a crap about an illegal protest (well, maybe some privileged folks, but not really anyone who's been in a decent protest).

      Sure, government gotta govern, but identifying some of the groups in the crowd and a "for a peaceful protest they're abusing a lot of members of the public, and they were threatening to kill me and my colleagues" wouldn't go astray.

      • weka 26.1.1

        That's not what US is suggesting though. They suggesting that the PM states that there is no moral basis for the protest. If she sets that precedent, think what National would do with it in the future.

        Addressing the abuse and threats is a different matter and doesn't require making a public declaration about moral justification.

        • McFlock

          Well, personally I'm ok with both statements, and the nats are already fine with claiming morality/immorality whenever convenient. Not that they know the meaning of the term.

          • weka

            It's not about claiming morality, it's about being able to use that to take action against protests they don't like. Very slippery slope.

            • McFlock

              The cops won't be able to move in and arrest people just because someone says the protest is immoral or has no moral basis.

              And I'm in favour of the government telling the truth.

              • Blazer

                What exactly is the truth…bucko?

              • weka

                not talking about that either. I'm talking about proto-fascist parties shifting the overton window on protest via legislation.

                This got voted down by the House of Lords, but we don't have that contraint.


                • weka

                  basically, government deciding who is allowed to protest and who isn't.

                • McFlock

                  Didn't a NZ govt pass some measures against protesting offshore oil exploration?

                  The government isn't deciding who is allowed to protest. The government has made its (I think completely accurate) feelings for the current protest known. They're not directing the speaker, and they're not directing the cops.

                  • Blazer

                    Is the speaker a member of the Labour Govt…or just a loose cannon…or do we need calculus tables to find..the answer?

                    • McFlock

                      or do we need calculus tables to find..the answer?

                      No, just a basic civics class in school.

                      The speaker is expected to conduct the functions of the office in a neutral manner, even though the speaker is generally a member of the governing party.

                      So the person is, the office is not, and the office role should be conducted accordingly.

                  • weka

                    Yes, National did that. You're making my argument for me McFlock.

                    The government isn't deciding who is allowed to protest. The government has made its (I think completely accurate) feelings for the current protest known. They're not directing the speaker, and they're not directing the cops.

                    Maybe you lost track of the conversation. I'm saying that I think it's inappropriate and unwise for the PM to tell the protestors that their protest has no legitimacy because they're narcissists and nutters. That is the government saying that they believe they know who is a legitimate protest and who isn't. It's not up to them. We can easily see this if it's National in power, and they decide that climate activism isn't legitimate, or Ihumātao, or any number of things that Nat doesn't want (or they go full Tory and pass legislation that gives them the power to do what the UK govt tried).

                    • Blade

                      Lance Burdett agrees with you.

                    • McFlock

                      I don't think National said the greenpeace protestors were immoral, or cared about the legitimacy of the protests. They liked that sweet mining revenue and paved the way regardless.

                      I think they mostly pulled the "public safety" line for the exploration protest legislation, as I recall.

                    • weka

                      I didn't say they did. I said that Labour now having the PM step up and focus on "the lack of a justifiable moral cause for the protest" will open the door in the future for National to do the same thing and they will also embed that structurally, because they have form, and because Tories would love nothing better than being able to suppress protest.

                      The PM shouldn't be saying who has a legitimate protests and who doesn't. This is different from the PM saying that abuse and death threats undermine protest. US is saying something else, that the PM should marginalise the protest morally because it's based on conspiracy.

                    • UncookedSelachimorpha []

                      The slippery slope is a fair concern, and morality is often arguable.

                      But everyone has a moral (and philosophical and logical) argument for their protest, and it is open to be (and should be) argued. For example, anti apartheid, anti nuclear, pro gay marriage, climate change protests, had very sound moral grounds in my view. The current one does not share this in my opinion, and this can be fairly argued. Sure, National can practice whataboutism in future, and that is where progressives can make a moral case in response.

                    • weka

                      There are ethical problems with the mandates, especially how they have been done (we could have taken better care of people losing their jobs for instance). There are ethical problems with coercing vaccination. And there are ethical problems with government overreach.

                      The people I know who are broadly freedom protestors have legitimate moral grounds for their dissent. That they are also steeped in conspiracy doesn't make that not so.

                      But that's beside the point, which is that while we can and should talk about all of that, the Prime Minister of New Zealand should not publicly be weighing on the moral basis of protests.

                      Sure, National can practice whataboutism in future, and that is where progressives can make a moral case in response.

                      You appear to have missed my point. This isn't whataboutism. This would be Labour legitimising any future government then being able to say 'we are allowed to arbitrate on what is morally right and wrong when it comes to protest.

                      The Conservative government in the UK didn't give a flying fuck about what moral case progressives were making in response to their police bill that would enable them to constrain protest. If it were NZ, the bill would have passed.

    • weka 26.2

      Narcissists and nutters?

      Ardern's haters and wreckers moment.

  26. Drowsy M. Kram 28

    Imho protesting vaccine mandates during a phase of the pandemic when active case numbers are soaring is poor timing that calls to mind Groundswell NZ's protest against (amongst other things) climate change mitigation measures being followed by flooding.

    OPINION: Mother nature has a delightful sense of irony.

    Not hours after the last Groundswell tractor chugged home, in a cloud of diesel fumes, the rains began to fall.

    MetService issued a red warning – only the third in its history. A month’s average rainfall came down in two days in parts of the West Coast.

    More than 2000 people were forced from their homes, major roads were closed, paddocks submerged, and Buller and Marlborough had to declare local states of emergency.

    Vaccine mandates aim to provide significant protection against the more severe effects of infection and so contribute to maintaining essential services, and contribute to slowing community spread (flattening the curve) by restricting the freedom of COVID-19.

    Preparing for Omicron: A proactive Government response is urgently needed to minimise harms [17 January 2022]
    Therefore, a poorly controlled Omicron outbreak in NZ risks overwhelming the health care system, increasing inequities, and disrupting essential services as is being seen overseas.

    Develop and implement an Aotearoa NZ mask strategy: NZ needs a well-developed mask strategy to support the effective use of high-quality masks in all settings where they will make a meaningful difference. Masks are effective against all Covid-19 variants, so are needed to help to ‘flatten the curve’ in the event of an Omicron outbreak.

    Support schools, workplaces, and essential services to prepare for Omicron: There are multiple ways that schools, workplaces and essential services can prepare for the arrival of Omicron. These measures include vaccination (and vaccine mandates for all essential industries), adequate sick leave policies, social support, cohorting, ventilation and filtration of indoor air, and mask use policies to minimise transmission in indoor environments.

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