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Convoy protest 28/2/22

Written By: - Date published: 6:05 am, February 28th, 2022 - 151 comments
Categories: covid-19 - Tags: , , ,

Day 21

Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara/Te_Taipo on twitter

 

Media Release: Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei do not support protest actions against vaccination and mandates (Waatea News 25/2/22)

 

151 comments on “Convoy protest 28/2/22 ”

  1. Like Muttonbird commented on Convoy Protest yesterday, I’m getting fed up with the ignorant arseholes who are holding this country to ransom! Like the f*ckwit in this photo!

    https://twitter.com/realrogerboyce/status/1496706549745545216

    • Barfly 1.1

      Hmm looks like Chris Bishop….

    • Cricklewood 1.2

      Um he's a pretty well known counter protestor in Canada (uses satire) so not too sure why you'd call him a fuckwit.

      https://toronto.citynews.ca/2021/09/13/counter-demonstrator-uses-satire-in-support-of-science-at-hospital-protests/

      • As that appears is the case, that doubly reinforces my point – the only sensible way to look at these f*ckwits in Wellington is through the lens of satire.

        So, well done, that man.

        • Lol. It did occur to me when I first saw that photo that nobody could be that dumb – then I saw tweets about dead lambs and rays from parliament and tin foil hats and I thought, yes, perhaps they could.

      • Shanreagh 1.2.2

        Is the satire connected with not being able to spell? Like the NZ protestor 'we never flung poo"

        Are they making a thing about this or is the spelling/grammar just woeful?

        Pedant and grammar snob here. wink

    • GreenBus 1.3

      Tony – looks like Cricklewood is right, he's a counter-protester. Good on him, best idea I've seen yet. Might give it a go myself.

    • Rosemary McDonald 1.4

      Seriously? Is this the very best this twat can come up with to fill the void in their Twatter thread…or whatever its called?

      From another country. From another year.

      And somehow thinks posting this from a protest by medical staff in Canada last September against 'no jab no job' mandates relates to NZ protestors going to Wellington hospital for treatment.

      What? Thinking the gullible will not look at the image properly and think this is now, in NZ?

      Yeah, nah.

      The Twatterati must do better.

      • So I take it that shedding spike proteins did kill a pet lamb, and that EMF rays are being shot out of antennas on top of parliament and tinfoil hats do actually protect the few brain cells these protestors possess?

        After all, twitter can't be wrong? sarc/

      • I will be the first to admit I didn’t check out the antecedents of that picture – it just seemed to typify the sort of misguided crap that’s coming out of the protestors.

        The point is that the vast, vast majority of this country have recognised the need to act in the collective good for the whole population.

        On the other hand, a small, a very small number have selfishly put their supposed ‘freedumbs’ ahead of that collective good.

        Frankly, there is no justification for their unprincipled stand!

        If they won’t listen to and heed medical advice, what will convince them? Counterspin Media?

        • Rosemary McDonald 1.4.2.1

          Frankly, there is no justification for their unprincipled stand!

          51,710 people might disagree with you.

          https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-40.asp

          (Bearing in mind that most people do not make a complaint to CARM. It is not an easy process, and most of these reports…that are deemed 'minor' by Medsafe…are filed by health professionals.)

          And with Omicron running riot throughout the land despite the vast, vast majority having partaken of the Pfizer product in order to prevent said riot running…do you not think that perhaps some who were ambivalent about the protest a couple of weeks ago are now on board?

          • The Chairman 1.4.2.1.1

            And with Omicron running riot throughout the land despite the vast, vast majority having partaken of the Pfizer product in order to prevent said riot running…

            I see Jacinda said this morning vaccines "were" the things providing protection to New Zealanders. The use of the word 'were' is interesting isn't it?

            https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/27/ardern-still-feels-safe-despite-heckling-from-protesters/

          • mpledger 1.4.2.1.2

            Just because an adverse event is reported, it doesn't mean the event was due to covid-19. Doctors tend to report everything to check for emerging patterns of illness. We don't know how many people would have had the same event on that day if they hadn't been vaccinated.

            With covid-19 running riot through the land but with only 344 people in hospital, maybe the ambivalent people are realising that vaccination is a good thing.

            • Rosemary McDonald 1.4.2.1.2.1

              We don't know how many people would have had the same event on that day if they hadn't been vaccinated.

              Just as we are seldom told if the person in hospital/ICU or sadly deceased 'with Covid' went to the hospital because of Covid symptoms or for something completely different.

              Like a gunshot victim who tested positive for Covid post mortem…

              Then there's the 561 reports of myocarditis, so far. It is very possible that for some the condition will not be 'mild and transient' and will lead to an early death. Shall we count them now? Or later?

              • mpledger

                The recording of hospitalisations and deaths allows for multiple reasons for hospitalisation or death. So, if someone gets a gunshot wound and has covid-19 then the primary reason will be the gunshot wound but other conditions will be recorded as well. It's because we want to know about patterns – maybe covid-19 gives a person a fog-head which means they put themselves unthinkingly in dangerous positions – we could look for an elevated rate of injuries for those with covid-19 compared to those without.

            • The Chairman 1.4.2.1.2.2

              With covid-19 running riot through the land but with only 344 people in hospital, maybe the ambivalent people are realising that vaccination is a good thing.

              Don't the vaccinated make up 75% of hospitalizations?

              • Barfly

                Is maths a challenge for you?:

                • The Chairman

                  No.

                  Surely, if the vaccine works as well as mpledger seems to be implying, it would only be the unvaccinated in hospital. Or at least, a higher number of them.

                  Of course, if the vaccine doesn't work that well, then due to our high vaccination rate, one would assume the maths would point to that high percentage rate being a factor

                  • Barfly

                    Total vaccination for 12+ = 94%

                    Therefore 94% (vaxxed) is supplying 75% of hospital admissions

                    and 6% (unvaxxed) is supplying 24% of hospital admissions

                    Do you see now why I was unsure of your mathematical ability?

                    • Barfly

                      Meh and I m not even managing to get to 100% !
                      Fat fingers = bad typing

                    • The Chairman

                      Like I said.

                      Of course, if the vaccine doesn't work that well, then due to our high vaccination rate, one would assume the maths would point to that high percentage rate being a factor.

                      So your ongoing insinuations via your questioning re my maths capability is wrong

                    • Incognito []

                      Your “maths capability” is no better than your “logic”. You’d knock it out of the field when it comes to Sci-Fi though – it’s almost outer-dimensional.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    Don't worry Chairman, I can do the math for you. We need to divide the hospitalisation fractions by the population fractions to make the populations the same size.

                    75/94 = 0.7978

                    25/6 = 4.1666

                    Now if we re-convert these to percentage of total we can work out how much better each vaccinated person does relative to each unvaccinated.

                    0.7978 + 4.1666 = 4.9644

                    0.7978 / 4.9644 = 0.1607

                    4.1666 / 4.9644 = 0.8393

                    So on a per-person basis unvaccinated make up 84% and vaccinated 16% of hospitalisations. Note this is an under-estimate on the benefit of vaccines however as it doesn't take into account age confounding.

                    Now, in return you can go and explain to the council that the toilet block is all above board and that your plumber wouldn't install any toilets which can't be consented.

              • mpledger

                There have been 7,038 unvaccinated cases and 485 ended up in hospital i.e. 69 hospitalisation per 1000 cases.

                There have been 72,301double vaccinated or boosted cases with 500 ending up in hospital i.e. 7 hospitalisations per 1000 cases.

                (That's for people aged 12+)

                So, it's a 10x difference and that’s before considering that older people (those more at risk of hospitalisation) are more likely to be vaccinated.

                [source: https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-case-demographics%5D

                • The Chairman

                  Yes, like I said above. Due to our high vaccination rate, one would assume the maths would point to that high percentage rate being a factor.

                  With covid-19 running riot through the land but with only 344 people in hospital, maybe the ambivalent people are realising that vaccination is a good thing.

                  You were using the low number of hospitalizations as a benefit of being vaccinated. I was (via my question) highlighting the vaccinated can still end up in hospital. And I didn't state the percentage was per 1000 cases.

                  Another point I would like to make re your comment. Rather than seeing it as a benefit of being vaccinated, some may see the low number of hospitalizations as being a sign of the overall mildness of the infection itself on the vast majority. Especially, when seeing so many of the vaccinated becoming infected.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    "And I didn't state the percentage was per 1000 cases."

                    Good effort, really giving more than 100% now.

                  • Muttonbird

                    Some may see the low number of hospitalizations as being a sign of the overall mildness of the infection itself on the vast majority

                    But we are protecting the vulnerable minority. That is literally what we are doing.

                    Like with your attitude to rental housing though, you don't seem to care about the vulnerable minority.

                    It's a far right wing attitude you have there.

                  • Incognito

                    And I didn't state the percentage was per 1000 cases.

                    Just as well, and neither did mpledger, who referred to absolute numbers rather than percentages and then normalised these absolute numbers per 1,000. It would be a rather odd thing to state as such because a percentage is normalised to 100, i.e. 6.9 and 0.7% using mpledger’s example.

                    You seem to be even more in a protest mode than we’re used to from you and your protestations here are even less compelling than usual.

          • hamish 1.4.2.1.3

            Looking at the medasfe page down where they are comparing expected deaths vs actual, and find that the vaccinated are dying at half the expected rate…

            If ever there was a signal you were using bad data……

            And deaths from vax are concentrated in a peak in the 3 to 4 days after and by 7 days the peak is almost back down to background, so looking at it 'averaged' over 21 days is a good way to not see the signal.

            A more sensetive method would be to chart days from shot to death, and form the control group from unvax from the same time frame, not from a pre covid year.

            • Rosemary McDonald 1.4.2.1.3.1

              If ever there was a signal you were using bad data……

              So you are saying that the data on the Medsafe page, derived from the raw data collected by CARM is "bad"? Note. This is not my data. I am not sure why you would say I am using 'bad data'…it is the only data on adverse effects from the Pfizer product available.

              ….and find that the vaccinated are dying at half the expected rate…

              A pity there is not a similar set of data provided that compares the expected/observed rates for unvaccinated.

              Like a control, perhaps.

        • weka 1.4.2.2

          can you please stop commenting in brown.

  2. weka 2

    • Robert Guyton 2.1

      Wellington City Council could install a sensor at the connection-site, and get an accurate reading of Covid infestation at the occupation.

      • dv 2.1.1

        Where are they getting the water from for the toilet?

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1.1

          Water flowing underground. In pipes. With exit points aboveground. The Romans did this stuff. Y'all forgetting these are the great unwashed working/trade class…they have skills…?

          Same as it ever was.

          • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.1.1

            I'm with Rosemary on this one. They made a good job of it, knew what they were doing, raised the hygiene standards and gave us something to smile at. When it comes to ingenuity, they are us. Irritating to see it that way, but hey!

            • Barfly 2.1.1.1.1.1

              A stopped clock getting the time right situation laugh

            • Muttonbird 2.1.1.1.1.2

              Reckon the guys who did this are used to bending the rules if you know what I mean. Cash jobs, non-compliance, risk to the economy, etc. Their presence at the clown camp is proof they are on the fringes or on the outside of society. This will manifest itself in many ways, vax paranoia, mistrust of authority, constant brushes with the law and the like.

              Not sure it's a laughing matter, tbh.

      • Psycho Milt 2.1.2

        Sensor wouldn't last long – protesters would swiftly identify it as an EMF weapon aimed at the parts they were exposing to the toilet, and destroy it.

      • Ad 2.1.3

        Wellington's Mayor and staff should do a fact-finding site tour of the protest on how to actually install a sewerage system.

        The volume of tonnes of poop WCC have discharged into their harbour means it's pretty rich for them to complain.

  3. Matiri 3

    Sobering warning from a top NZ cardiologist about a tidal wave of heart disease on its way due to Omicron attacking the heart. He is urging people to get boosted. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-cardiologist-warns-of-tidal-wave-of-heart-disease-linked-to-long-covid/ZYMK3ZEV2J62UAI2VQ4DTHYIOY/

  4. Reality 4

    I see the Wellington regional council is asking the police for a "please explain" for allowing the street toilets to be installed. I should think so. Disgraceful that this was allowed to happen.

    Not sure what the current situation is at the Auckland Domain, but it was good to hear yesterday the police stopped vehicles driving in.

    • Matiri 4.1

      Did they distract the police with a convoy of caravan towing utes and belligerent activity by protestors on Saturday night that triggered riot police gearing up and piling into vans? All came to nothing but the toilet building materials snuck on in,

      • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.1

        And I'm told a whanau strolled past the constabulary over the weekend with the teenagers each with a bag of asphalt patch slung casually over their shoulders.

        As you do.

    • Robert Guyton 4.2

      The toilet though, is well done; I see they named it "The Peehive".

      Those of us not in the protest, should perhaps keep our sense of humour alive…

  5. observer 5

    The social ethos of the protest, summed up in one sentence. From the Stuff report:

    "Meanwhile, two protesters began constructing a treehouse in a tree in front of the Beehive yesterday. The men, who declined to be named, said they were building it for people to use as a platform to avoid police, if officers tried to clear the site.

    I’m basically building this because I f…ing can,” one said."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127902771/council-asks-for-explanation-from-police-regarding-protesters-flushing-toilets

    I know there have been proposals to reform Resource Consent, but it turns out it has already been abolished. Missed that news.

    • Peter 5.1

      The guys in the tree? When the area is cleared and their mates can't get food to them, can we expect them to fall out all malnourished and feeble?

      And since they won't be able to come down to visit their architect designed latrine as a return climb will be blocked, will they dispose of their shit by simply flinging it at cops?

    • GreenBus 5.2

      Yup, if there is one thing to learn from this shit show : you will be allowed to break multiple laws without consequences.

      • McFlock 5.2.1

        We-ell, not so much: when students went berserk on George St a few years back (yes, shit throwing took place then, too), the investigations went on for months. High def camera footage was watched through a microscope, acts identified, individuals identified and tracked down.

        Give this lot enough rope, it's not the politicians they'll end up hanging.

  6. Reality 6

    Surely sufficient police could be on hand to enable the regional council or whoever to dismantle the toilets. Give a warning then pepper spray if needed. They are health hazards (both the toilets and protesters) but the council staff surely have protective gear to wear when dealing with other sewerage and drainage problems that Wellington experiences.

    Wherever the protesters have come from I sympathise with their local communities having such anti-social, ugly-minded people around.

    • Rosemary McDonald 6.1

      Surely the lack of toilets would be more of a health hazard?

      The Freedom Campers have gone to great lengths to not despoil the environment and keep the whanau healthy, while the Good Guys are doing their level best to undermine their efforts.

      Fancy refusing to let the portaloo emptying truck through. Disgusting tactic.

      I don't think you lot fully grasp the demographic involved here.

      Carefully constructed media reports scream 'Mentally ill, disorganized, violent river of filth!!!!' , and you can't get your heads around the fact that the majority are anything but.

      • Tricledrown 6.1.1

        Many on release with ankle bracelets,White supremacists,

        Most are failures and powerless .This is a gathering of fringe lunatics.

        The only Politicians courting them fringe looney’s like Peter's and Seymour.

        • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1.1

          Many on release with ankle bracelets,White supremacists, Evidence?

          Most are failures and powerless . And yet…flush toilets, running water, awesome food, two levels of first aid, laundry service, security, admin, information, information and support for those injured by the Pfizer product. And music. And dancing.

          All the trappings of a civilized society.

      • weka 6.1.2

        Fancy refusing to let the portaloo emptying truck through.

        Did they stop all emptying? I thought they just made it more difficult.

        • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.2.1

          I'm not going to trawl through faceache for the footage..too much to do…but if I recall it was that Leighton Baker chap who actually filmed inside the overflowing portaloos. I've seen some pretty appalling public conveniences in my time but that was truly baaad.

          The Baker fellow was spewing…apoplectic because the truck was refused entry to empty the bogs.

          No link. Take my word for this, or not.

          The shit flowing from those portaloos was nothing compared to the crap being flung around here, and elsewhere.

          • weka 6.1.2.1.1

            afaik the police haven't stopped all servicing of the portaloos, despite that one instance (or that one day or whatever).

            I think it was a dick move by the police, but I'm not aware of all service being stopped.

      • observer 6.1.3

        Here's a "carefully constructed media report".

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/127904988/iwi-take-unprecedented-stand-against-abusive-protesters-who-invaded-marae

        The iwi have had enough. More than enough. If this reporting is false, no doubt the iwi will be letting us know.

        • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.3.1

          Hmmm. I've been following. You do know that there is a build up of the existing resentment towards some Iwi leaders from the rank and file? Especially when there are screaming headlines of how much putea is flowing from the government to many iwi organizations for 'Covid support' and very little benefit seen by those who need it most. How ironic is it that many of the protest 'leaders' are tangata whenua and some view Parliament grounds as their ancestral turangawaewae.

          • observer 6.1.3.1.1

            Feel free to provide evidence for those claims.

            Or address any of the evidence in the link I provided.

            Did people not behave in the way described, and were they not from your protest?

      • Psycho Milt 6.1.4

        I used to think even hippies and ferals could figure out that setting up a squatter camp involving random strangers living cheek-by-jowl with no public health measures during an epidemic of a highly infectious disease isn't a particularly good way to "keep the whanau healthy." Apparently I was wrong.

      • Adrian 6.1.5

        Bullshit. They were tipping their crap into the harbour. Fairly obvious now that it wasn't overseas van-packers shitting around the free camping sights it was lazy, entitled and stupid Kiwis driving $150K campervans.

        • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.5.1

          They were tipping their crap into the harbour.

          I have hunted high and low for an official notification that 'crap' was found in the harbour that had its source at the Protest. I can't even find an official source that swimming spot had to be closed because of Protest effluent discharges.

          (PS. An article in MSM does not constitute "official")

          Fairly obvious now that it wasn't overseas van-packers shitting around the free camping sights it was lazy, entitled and stupid Kiwis driving $150K campervans.

          Having lived in a Bus for a number of years traveling around, I can state quite categorically that you are half right.. Overseas van-packers were befouling our lovely land….oh yes siree…but sadly so were some of our own Kiwis…and yes many of the entitled to dump wherever were the one;s in the high end mobile tupperware containers.

      • Brigid 6.1.6

        "The Freedom Campers have gone to great lengths to not despoil the environment and keep the whanau healthy" by continuing to use the portaloos till they flowed into the street.

        What sort of morons are they?

    • Ad 6.2

      They could measure the volume of bullshit coming out of the Beehive while they're at it.

  7. ianmac 7

    Yesterday at about 3pm we passed by Nelson Square Picton, which was heavily inhabited with protesters. Crammed with cars utes campervans etc. We counted, coming up Main Highway 1, heading to Picton 181+ flagged lit vehicles convoying to Picton. We think about 500 people in total but it must be interesting fitting them all into Nelson Square. Were they heading for Wellington today? The predicted cross Cook Strait Flotilla perhaps? Obsessive eh?

    • mac1 7.1

      Hope you didn't count me in, ianmac. I got caught up in that convoy in town. Managed to escape to freedom with my mandate intact. Near thing, though……

  8. weka 8

    Anyone know if the original trespass notice would be broad enough to include people who have arrived at the site since the first few days?

  9. Reality 9

    Rosemary McDonald – I assume you are having a laugh when you say the protesters have gone to "great lengths to not despoil the environment and keep the whanau healthy".

  10. observer 10

    Staff at Auckland hospital who treat people with the virus are now prevented from parking their cars around the Domain because of protesters who will soon be needing the same staff to treat them.

    • Molly 10.1

      Or because – as always – provision for parking at Auckland Hospital is expensive and limited. Domain parking is three hours maximum.

      • observer 10.1.1

        Nice try. Wrong.

        • Molly 10.1.1.1

          What's wrong?

          Parking is both limited and expensive in Auckland Hospital.

          Domain (free) parking is maximum 3 hours. (Unlikely to be used by staff, more likely out patients or visitors. Or domain or museum visitors).

    • The Chairman 10.2

      I did warn the protest was growing. Thus, if Jacinda engaged earlier this could have potentially been put to bed long ago. Hence, those protesters wouldn't now be there.

      Now, (with the Intelligence Service report) it seems she is willing to potentially put lives and the safe reputation of the country at risk.

      When there is no opportunity to talk, it heightens the risk of some potentially resorting to more desperate measures.

  11. observer 11

    He's not going to take it any more …

  12. Ad 12

    If it is correct that our Intelligence Service has determined a 'realistic possibility' of violent terror attack threat from these Anti-Mandate protesters, then fair enough I take it all back.

    Inside intelligence: Security service reports detail 'realistic possibility' of violent terror attack threat from 'peaceful' anti-vax movement – NZ Herald

    Nuke them.

    • The Chairman 12.1

      Intelligence Service has determined a 'realistic possibility' of violent terror attack threat from these Anti-Mandate protesters

      Yet, despite the risk, Jacinda still won't engage with them.

      Is she willing to let it go that far and potentially put lives at risk?

      Moreover, allow NZ's reputation for being a safe country to live and visit to also be put at risk?

      • Robert Guyton 12.1.1

        There's a " 'realistic possibility' of violent terror attack threat from these Anti-Mandate protesters"

        Yet "Jacinda still won't engage with them."

        Are you … disengaged, Chair???

        • The Chairman 12.1.1.1

          Are you … disengaged, Chair???

          Not at all.

          You do know they plan to use a intermediary?

          One wonders how much the conclusion from that Intelligence Service risk analysis was put down to Jacinda’s unwillingness to engage?

          • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.1.1

            So when you say, "Jacinda still won't engage with them", you don't mean what you say?

            An intermediary satisfies you now?

            Banging on and on about the Prime Minister's decision not to meet, face to face with … someone/some people from the Parliamentary-lawn campers seems quite disengaged to me, Chair.

            • The Chairman 12.1.1.1.1.1

              So when you say, "Jacinda still won't engage with them", you don't mean what you say?

              No. I was talking about the protester's plan to use a intermediary.

              By the way, you failed to answer this question (below).

              One wonders how much the conclusion from that Intelligence Service risk analysis was put down to Jacinda’s unwillingness to engage?

              • Incognito

                By the way, you failed to answer this question (below).

                AFAIK, Robert does not work for any Intelligence Service and if he did, he would not engage with you and your usual silly speculative question.

                The way I read your nonsense is that you somehow hold the PM responsible for radicalisation of the largely peaceful protest by not engaging with them!? Anything is possible in your imagination, it seems, and you sound like the ideal target for brainwashing by unscrupulous elements.

                • Ad

                  Robert Guyton is the perfect cover for an SIS plant.

                • The Chairman

                  AFAIK, Robert does not work for any Intelligence Service and if he did, he would not engage with you and your usual silly speculative question.

                  I was merely seeking his personal opinion.

                  The way I read your nonsense is that you somehow hold the PM responsible for radicalisation of the largely peaceful protest by not engaging with them!?

                  Do you not agree with the notion when there is no opportunity to talk, it heightens the risk of some potentially resorting to more desperate measures?

                  And do you not think it is logical the Intelligence Service considered that risk when coming to their conclusion?

                  Furthermore, would it not also be logical to assume the PM was advised of this? As Rosemary highlighted below re introducing mandates.

                  Thus, that the PM potentially knows the potential risk of not engaging but refuses to despite the added risk?

                  The reports – or at least the content – would have been made available to Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and at least some Cabinet ministers ahead of making the decision to pursue the mandates and vaccine passports. It shows the decision to forge ahead with a public health approach wasn't made without knowledge it could spark strong opposition.

                  The Prime Minister's office did not respond to a request for comment.

                  • Incognito

                    You seem high as a kite from smoking your own dope. Did you know that mind-altering drugs are used in brainwashing and they are very effective?

                    I’m sure that you (and other braindead zombies who have also succumbed to Te Virus) believe that the PM received advice from the “Intelligence Service” to engage with the protestors to avoid radicalisation by extreme elements and thus prevent future terror attacks. And I’m also sure that you believe that anything bad coming out of the protests is on the PM even when some nutter may decide to try blow up Parliament of 5 Nov. It is only logical given your state of mind that you believe these and other fantasies and figments of your vivid imagination and consider them to be logical.

                    You see, I’ve always believed that engaging with extremists of any kind (e.g. the violent kind) carries a risk of encouraging and validating them, their beliefs, and their actions. I don’t believe that not engaging with peaceful protestors who may have a genuine concern, which usually is a singular issue, leads to radicalisation of these citizens and turns them into extremists willing to commit terror acts against their fellow Kiwis. You see, my logic tells me that this would be highly irrational behaviour – unless they’re brainwashed. Are you brainwashed or a brainwasher?

                    • The Chairman

                      You seem high as a kite

                      There is no need for the personal swipes littered throughout your reply. Address the reasoning.

                      The potential for radicalisation by extreme elements within the protest has been reported on.

                      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/461959/far-right-elements-at-convoy-could-radicalise-others-to-violence-researcher

                      So that is another potential risk that I'm sure the PM is aware of. Yet, it seems her stance in not engaging is steadfast.

                      The protest is the consequence of the mandates. Her failure to engage saw protesters dig in. Upsetting some in Wellington.

                      She nevertheless continued with her stance to not engage. Now protests have spread to other parts of the country. Upsetting others, yet she's still unwavering

                      One hopes her continued failure to engage doesn't lead to the potential risks that have been reported such as radicalisation and acts of terror.

                      And I’m also sure that you believe that anything bad coming out of the protests is on the PM…

                      She has the potential to end this protest.

                      She knows some in Wellington are unhappy, yet doesn't engage. Doesn't even try to engage to see if there is a potential for a settlement. So what do you think? She has no culpability for her failure to not even try to settle this?

                      I’ve always believed that engaging with extremists of any kind (e.g. the violent kind) carries a risk of encouraging and validating them, their beliefs, and their actions.

                      Good. No one is suggesting she should engage with them extremists. There are plenty of good people there.

                      I don’t believe that not engaging with peaceful protestors who may have a genuine concern, which usually is a singular issue, leads to radicalisation of these citizens and turns them into extremists willing to commit terror acts

                      Despite the Intelligence Service report and others pointing to this potential?

                    • Incognito []

                      Address the reasoning.

                      Already did: you’re smoking your own dope.

                      The PM did not plant those far-right elements in the protest and she was right not to engage with that sub-fraction of the protestors, IMO.

                      Despite the Intelligence Service report and others pointing to this potential?

                      I reject your premise; read what I said. The PM is and cannot be responsible [“culpability”, FFS!] for any act of terror committed by an extremist splinter group – believing this would be a huge victory for such terrorist(s) and undermine the authority of (current) Government, which is often one of the goals of terrorist organisations. Your BS comments play right into the hands of extremists, i.e. you’ve jumped on their bandwagon without even realising it, and such is your state of brainwashing.

                      You are as obsessed as some others about the PM engaging about mandates when it demonstrably [see what I did there?] is not about mandates; it is about rejecting authority and control by unlawful means at any cost, even if it means using violence and terror, it seems, and without using alternative and appropriate (i.e. lawful) avenues such as the Courts.

                      BTW, you don’t know anything about the briefings and reports to the PM and Cabinet from the Intelligence agencies – >99% is made up inside your head. Stop huffing and puffing.

                    • Anne

                      @ The Chairman

                      Listen to who is talking. surprise

              • observer

                You (unsurprisingly) chose not to mention the name of the proposed "intermediary". A certain Apostle Brian Tamaki.

                The Apostle's party received 0.16% support from the NZ public at the election.

                • Ad

                  Brian Tamaki opens up his arms into a beam of light to be intermediary to God.

                  Unfortunately he's not allowed to hang with the Wellington protesters.

                  But if the protesters bowed their heads in prayer and focused their tinfoil like the CareBear I Care beam of love, they too will be received upwards into the beam of light.

                • The Chairman

                  Brian Tamaki was one possibility. There was/is another, Scott Guthrie formerly from the Sensible Sentencing Trust.

                  • observer

                    Sensible Sentencing Trust? Cool.

                    What are his views on dealing with law-breakers? Rewarding them? Cuddles from cops?

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Save me, Lord! The "intermediary" was Eftpostle (or a proxy) and you knew!!!

                    Chair!

                    Stool.

              • Robert Guyton

                I just can't do better than Incognito and observer in dissembling your nonsense, Chair.

                • The Chairman

                  You say nonsense. Failing to provide any reasoning for your assumption

                  I say it is a highly logical assumption. Highlighting the potential reasons why.

    • Rosemary McDonald 12.2

      If it is correct that our Intelligence Service has determined a 'realistic possibility' of violent terror attack threat from these Anti-Mandate protesters, then fair enough I take it all back.

      Inside intelligence: Security service reports detail 'realistic possibility' of violent terror attack threat from 'peaceful' anti-vax movement – NZ Herald

      Nuke them.

      Sigh.

      I've just read out aloud that entire piece to a pleb without a Herald subscription, and woven with a larger thread throughout that scary sounding document are statements from the writers that acknowledge the …

      the "overwhelmingly peaceful" opposition to the Covid-19 vaccine.

      While the intelligence reports repeatedly emphasise the broadly peaceful nature of the anti-vax movements, they highlight the vaccine mandates and passport as particular policies that might drive an individual…

      We assess the most likely scenario for a terrorist attack in New Zealand remains a lone actor attack, using a basic capability."

      "…anti-vaccination movements globally are not inherently violent".

      "Should any such violence occur, we currently assess this would more likely manifest as an isolated instance of violent protest rather than an act of terrorism."

      in a section titled "Nexus to Violent Extremism", it described the anti-vax movements as not "an inherently violent extremist ideology"

      It said anti-vax rhetoric resonated most closely with the "politically-motivated extremist community" such as the QAnon conspiracy and the Sovereign Citizens movement that believes individuals can choose which laws to obey.

      The CTAG report said such rhetoric "continues to manifest across all violent extremist ideologies" with Covid-19 conspiracy theories popular on pro-Islamic State social media.

      It was "highly likely that violent extremist ideologues" would use opposition to Covid-19 measures like vaccine mandates and passports "to advance their respective ideologies within the anti-vax community".

      By November, the CTAG assessment noted "a significant increase in anti-government rhetoric, including some that is explicitly violent", largely driven by the vaccine mandate and passport and the lockdown then still underway in Auckland.

      The CTAG report assessed most of those adopting or supporting "violent extremist rhetoric" would be "highly unlikely to have the intent to conduct violence".

      The CTAG report said it had also now identified "faith-motivated extremists" and "white identity-motivated extremists" alongside politically-driven extremists. The groups were "a very small proportion of those opposed" to the public health approach, who it described as "driven by a diverse set of ideological frameworks and personal grievances" and were "overwhelmingly peaceful".

      the assessments accurately forecasted growing social division and protest if New Zealand went down the path of mandates and vaccine passports.

      The reports – or at least the content – would have been made available to Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and at least some Cabinet ministers ahead of making the decision to pursue the mandates and vaccine passports. It shows the decision to forge ahead with a public health approach wasn't made without knowledge it could spark strong opposition.
      The Prime Minister's office did not respond to a request for comment.

      Forgive the large copy and paste…I have cherry picked the lines that support the view of the authors more accurately than your little incitement to genocide Ad.

      Most importantly is the last excerpt that shows the spooks warned the Government that strict and repressive 'public health measures' could very likely kick things off fightback wise.

      Add to that the fact of more people being aware of adverse effects from the Pfizer product (and the near impossibility of getting an exemption if one suffered such an effect), job mandates and loss of income and homes and the exclusion of kids from beloved after school activities if parents had chosen for them not to be jabbed and the final straw of the massive push to 'vaccinate' five year olds with a product that other more civilized nations had declined to promote for that age group because the risks outweigh the benefits.

      Tinderbox…right there.

      • Ad 12.2.1

        I would agree with you that this government has helped cause extremism through sustained refusal to engage. At Waitangi, Ardern would melt into a puddle if she's had to square up to in-your-face anger that Bolger, Clark and ministers squared up to over two decades.

        But if your Security brief really is assessing it this way now, it’s become too hard to meet.

        It’s less of a democracy and more of a capitalist management system: the key measure is that everyone still gets to shop.

        • observer 12.2.1.1

          Cindy's a softcock! Where's yer balls, Cindy?

          Do better.

          (posted before your Edit on the DPS/security, which really should have come first. There’s more to these choices than stupid taunts).

        • Peter 12.2.1.2

          You're on your 'Bolger, Clark were big bold and brave' bandwagon again.

          Naturally you have no idea at all how Bolger would have operated in 2022 had he been in and through the circumstances of recent times in New Zealand and with it being the sort of place it has evolved to be.

          It's like telling us the wing forward in the 1921 All Blacks would do far better in 2022 than whoever ends up in the equivalent position.

          • Ad 12.2.1.2.1

            Bolger has called her out. Few ex-PMs have done that to a sitting PM.

            Do you remember Ardern's words at Waitangi only last year? "Hold us to account but only the polite Maori not the rowdy ones."

            Or did she say something different?

            Muldoon dealt with worse. Lange dealt with worse. Bolger and Clark dealt with worse.

            Ardern is on the same scale as Key when it comes to 'handling the truth'.

            • observer 12.2.1.2.1.1

              Few ex-PMs have done that to a sitting PM.

              John Key was all over the media calling out Ardern. Far more media coverage than Bolger on this. It was a concerted campaign, nothing less.

              And Jim’s memory is hardly reliable …

            • Peter 12.2.1.2.1.2

              Bolger's called her out? Big deal. Your comparisons are trite.

      • overwhelmingly peaceful"

        The concentration of Russian forces on the border of the Ukraine was overwhelmingly peaceful . . . until it wasn't!

        There's no way Jacinda should meet with any of the ferals/selfish arseholes on Parliament's lawn.

        • Anne 12.2.2.1

          "There's no way Jacinda should meet with any of the ferals/selfish arseholes on Parliament's lawn."

          Absolutely not. They have proven themselves to be fickle, unreliable fools and vagabonds. To meet with them would be to condone abhorrent behaviour and give credence to their deluded and fanciful notions.

          If the SIS believe there are elements within that movement who are capable of committing terrorist type activity then we had better believe it too!

      • Peter 12.2.3

        I couldn't find their report from March 2019 with their findings and any warnings about what would happen if there were no lockdowns, no limitations on coming and going from the country, no mandates about mask wearing and no vigorous pushing of vaccinations.

  13. observer 13

    Don Brash, Michael Bassett and Rodney Hide have a blog. Three names that should give anyone pause to reflect on where the support is coming from.

    Rodney loves the protest camp, and they seem to love him. Perhaps they all had a good chat about his ACT policies on "law and order", beneficiary-bashing, Maori "separatists", etc.

    Or not.

    https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/freedom

    • Barfly 13.1

      Don Brash, Michael Bassett and Rodney Hide

      AKA the "wrong white crowd" devil

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 13.2

      Hi…maybe it was just me but I saw bassett brash and hide COMPOST.

      Well they do love a good roll in it……

  14. Muttonbird 14

    Occupiers say they will encourage a day of "non-compliance" tomorrow if the vaccine mandates are not lifted.

    Err, they've been complying to this point?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-one-arrested-at-parliament-occupation-protest-spreads-to-auckland/C2OGN2AVW5NBIJXQGOFKEOJJJI/

    • Nic the NZer 14.1

      Apparently if you lost your job to mandates your protest action for tomorrow is to go back to work. Not sure what kind of penalty is likely for working somewhere without permission, as its uncommon.

      But apparently we will get to find out how many of the protest camp actually lost jobs from mandates. I'm picking none of the protest camp will be going to work tomorrow.

  15. Just Saying 15

    There is innate biological survival fear in contagion, and this is a dangerous force that responsible authority operating out of care, would manage, and certainly not leverage.

    • McFlock 15.1

      Or, like, the contagion is actually dangerous and needs collective effort to [checks notes] have one of the lowest per capita covid mortality rates in the world.

      There's no way a small section of the population are so fucking stupid that they'd sabotage those efforts because they believe they know better than the vast majority of people who have spent literal decades working to minimise the damage infectious diseases cause. Is there?

  16. PsyclingLeft.Always 16

    Some officers who resigned rather than get a Covid vaccination have been seen protesting at Parliament, facing down their former colleagues on the frontline, the police association says.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/462420/officers-stood-down-over-mandates-seen-protesting-at-parliament-police-association

    Well there you go. That would be interesting conversations. And back to work together ? Maybe.

  17. PsyclingLeft.Always 17

    Well, there were some faecetious things I could say in relation….but the situation pretty much smells like…you know.

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