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Daily review 04/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, November 4th, 2021 - 56 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

56 comments on “Daily review 04/11/2021 ”

  1. observer 1

    For anyone who doesn't yet know who the Ardern-haters are following … cartoon in today's Herald:

    • weka 1.1

      this is a lazy analysis. Yes, there are US pressures on what is happening here, and there's some opportunistic bullshit in various leaders and agitators. But there are a lot of NZers who have strong feelings about that that have nothing to do with the US. And we know that there are a lot of Māori who don't trust the government for their own reasons.

      • observer 1.1.1

        And we know that there are a lot of Māori who don't trust the government for their own reasons.

        There is a vast chasm between "not trusting the government" and being happy to stand alongside people waving Trump flags and QAnon placards.

        I'm sure people at Whanau Ora and the Waipareira Trust are not very happy with the government right now, but they're out getting people vaccinated.

        • weka

          so? There are also Māori who don't trust the government who aren't being vaccinated, and their reasons aren't coming from the US. I've missed your point.

          • observer

            The protests are organised by the far right. "Not being vaccinated" is foolish IMHO, but that is not the same as protesting against Ardern for being a UN dictator etc.

            Again, the cartoon is about the protests, not the hesitation. Very different.

            Liz Gunn, Damien de Ment et al are not doing this for Maori.

            • weka

              is the person in the cartoon an actual person?

            • mauī

              "The protests are organised by the far right."

              🙄 ..They are??

              • observer

                Yes, they are.

                Look at the printed placards. The ones in blue/green from "Voices for Freedom". Prominent in the gatherings in Auckland, Whanganui etc.

                This is who they are:


                • Cricklewood

                  The protests have gathered in people outside of those very small groups you speak of, wide spread mandated vaccines are a big issue for quite a few people and they come from all across the political and cultural spectrum. The cartoon is a lazy trope.

                • mauī

                  Ah ok, so what I got from that is this group has a leader who was once a candidate for a fringe, populist party. They also use an app that far right groups might use. This makes them far right?

                  • Cricklewood

                    In Observers world yes.

                    I'll put my stake down here.

                    Im vaccinated, until a few weeks ago never attended a protest in my life.

                    For me widespread mandated vaccines and the subsequent exclusion from society of a substantial number of people from society many of them all ready on the margins is just flat wrong and extremely damaging in the longer term. So despite my hatred of the Bishop or whatever he calls himself I went. There were alot of ordinary working class people there with genuine issues.

                    As I see it the vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated, the science is showing us that the vaccine doesnt prevent illness or transmission and in some settings / groups there is very little difference

                    There are other tools we could and need to use rapid testing, ppe, hell get another vaccine option in the damn country.

                    Long term its a mistake the current approach is driving a wedge in society, I read today Auckland Uni isnt going to accept unvaccinated students (or anyone else on campus) if that means even 50 young people who are low risk opt out of further education thats a long term loss.

                    • Shanreagh

                      I think the numbers who remain unvaccinated will plummet. Out of 67,000 United Airlines employees required to be vaccinated on D day or is that V day only 232 remained unvaccinated.

                      I support the mandates. I have no wish to be attended to by unvaccinated health professionals, or have my nieces and great nephew taught by unvaccinated teachers or lecturers. One niece has underlying health problems. She would be very badly affected should she get Covid. The higher the number of vaccinated people in the day to day population that she mingles with the less chance of catching Covid. She is vaccinated.

                      If the numbers fall as they have been in the US then I don't see a wedge.

                      I support AKL uni. At my Hall of Residence while I was there a few, mumble years ago we had glandular fever rocket through our Hall and then to some in our lectures and to outside friends. Some of us were sick for months with ongoing fatigue. This had an impact on our study and our results. Any move that can be made to ensure that preventable infectious diseases don't get a foothold has my support.

                      If the anti vax people have a genuine reason then they will be able to seek an exemption. Apparently some sort of official body will be set up so that there is consistency in the assessing of these applications. Often though hand in hand with hostility to the vaccination there is hostility to mask wearing and social distancing

                    • Cricklewood []

                      Each to their own, personally I think we wont get far over 90 percent nationwide.

                      I dont think the comparison to United airlines is a good one in an NZ context they are by default people who are advantaged in society, our biggest issue sits with those at the margins.

                      Given your comments on the Uni would you support a policy including all other vaccines against infectious diesease including flu?

                      Sadly its inevitable that everyone will catch or he at least exposed to covid and vaccine protection has its limits. Its not an issue that will go away and vaccine or not we will have our waves of infection.

                      From a data standpoint the comparison between Israel and Palestine is fascinating. Very little difference in actual mortality rates despite one having very high vax rates and a good health system and the other….

            • Shanreagh


              David Farrier's report


              • Cricklewood

                Bit harsh on Dave Dobbin, he's clearly not an anti vaxxer ffs…

                Farriers a poor mans Louis Theroux anyways…

                • Shanreagh

                  Yes re Dave Dobbyn he did clarify things after the Loopy piece had gone out.

                  I really don't care who you think Farrier is or isn't. His main 'virtue' is that he is prepared to investigate and expose these 'people', for want of a more derogatory phrase, from a NZ perspective. smiley

                  • Cricklewood

                    Yeah I enjoy some of his stuff, but the Dave Dobbin thing shows this was a lazy piece.

                    Yes there are a bunch of fringe loonies who are anti vax some are left some are right but there are also plenty of ordinary people who are very unhappy with the current situation and are protesting.

                    For me its mandates, for someone I spoke to it was the death of a parent and the inability to visit in hospice and then grieve properly.

                    Its a complicated picture rolling out tropes isn't helpful imho.

              • Shanreagh

                Not sure I agree that people working in the health or education sectors are people at the margins. Not in my book anyway…they have a job which is more than many at the margins have.

                I was instancing workplace mandates and fact that while many say 'shock, horror' at the thought cooler, calmer heads often prevail.

                Re the University Halls of Residence I would support flu or glandular fever vaccines if they fell into the same degree of infectiousness and possible long term illness as Covid. Otherwise possibly it is a false equivalence argument.

            • Ross

              If protests are being organised by the far right, that would imply some sort of vast conspiracy. It’s kind of heartwarming that among those criticising anti-vax conspiracy theories, some may hold their own conspiracy theories. 🙂

          • I Feel Love

            Harawira, Tama It, gang leaders etc are all urging Māori to get vaccinated, the antivax paranoid "Italian army under mountains" & evangelical grifters are totally Bannon pushed. Someone is spending A LOT ofmoney to despel chaos here.

            • weka

              I hope you are not suggesting that Māori who haven't vaxxed have no minds of their own and it's all on the grifters.

          • KJT

            Rather more than a few young people. that I know, Maori in particular, but Pakeha and Pasifica as well, are being unduly influenced by facebook BS that originates from the USA.

            US gangster movies and the whole anti Government, man alone, sub culture, is a big part of all Kiwi youngsters culteral influences.

            One of the reasons why teaching our own history is so important.

            • weka

              of course. We are all influenced all the time, and US cultural imperialism (mainstream and fringe) has been a problem for a long time.

              If we say it's all just that, we miss the elephant in the living room that is colonisation (past and present). It's patronising and it doesn't help make positive social change around the rabbit hole stuff, it just reinforces it and helps it grow.

    • Shanreagh 1.2


      Those I call the hostile NZ anti vaxxers are also following the US of A in the memes, stories and 'research' for those 'doing their own research' into the vaccine.

      Not talking about Maori though this is a age thing as well, with older Maori being the keepers of the memories of the 1918 flu and its effects being vaxxed, while the younger ones are more likely to be influenced by social media.

      Hon Peeni Henare, I think it was, had a story about a Kuia who was vaxxed and so told her 59 grandchildren and kin that they would not be able to visit her unless they were vaccinated as well. I think most of them are vaccinated now.

    • Bearded Git 1.3

      Great post Observer….fascinating thread

  2. weka 2

    • Shanreagh 2.1

      They do this with disabilities such as deafness….I suddenly have the potential to go from needing bilateral hearing aids for over 30years to possibly having new hearing. I gave away the support because for a couple of years they insisted that I get this verified by a Dr and doing that almost cost the amount they paid out over a year.

      • weka 2.1.1

        it's mindboggling they haven't fixed this. And fucks me off no end that the MSM aren't asking the Minister to account for herself.

  3. Rosemary McDonald 3

    Back in July, Medsafe, doing their due diligence, issued an Alert Communication with information and advice about…

    Myocarditis and pericarditis – rare adverse reactions to Comirnaty (Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine)

    …in which they stated that,

    Myocarditis has been determined to be a rare side effect (less than 1 in a million overall3) to vaccination with Comirnaty. This information will be added to the data sheet very shortly.

    The Safety Report #33, released yesterday, states…

    Overall, the rate of myocarditis (including reports of myopericarditis) was 7 cases per million people vaccinated after dose one and 10 cases per million people vaccinated after dose two. Based on hospital discharge data from 2008 – 2019, on average 95 people were diagnosed with myocarditis every year.

    Which in even my sleep deprived state seems a fucking big difference to what was promised back in July.

    The total of reported cases of pericarditis and myocarditis across the 33 weeks of data of Pfizer vaccine side effects is 169.

    12 of these cases of heart inflammation due to the Pfizer vaccine have occurred in children aged 12-19 years.

    49 cases occur in young people between the ages of 20-39.

    Now I guess that there are TS regulars who will be delighted to unpick and unpack the data supplied between both documents and be able to provide reassurance to myself, and any others even slightly concerned, that it is not that our government seems happy to play fast and loose with our children's long term health it is just that the reports are all wrong.

    #Jabthemallandamntheconsequences #takeoneintheheartfortheteamof5million

    • weka 3.1

      if the rate is 7 per million, then the 169 won't be vaccine related, right?

      My own view: there will be side effects, some serious, some largely ignored by mainstream medicine. This is the price we pay (some more than others) for some degree of protection from covid. My problem with this: that people aren't being told when vaccinated what to look out for (so there is no informed consent), and we are just really shit at helping people with long term illness and disability in NZ. Honesty would help, as would increasing support for people affected.

      • observer 3.1.1

        I have in front of me a detailed list of possible side effects, given to me when vaccinated. Not just print: I was asked at some length about this, given clear explanations and questions answered.

        So it's simply not true that people aren't told.

        • weka

          you're using a single example to extrapolate to the population?

          • observer

            Come on, you're being silly. Do you think the informed consent info was only given to me? It is standard practice. I simply cited it.

            Did you not have that check list when vaccinated?

            • Ross


              So the vaccinator told you that there had been four cases of Bells’s Palsy among the trial participants who were given the Pfizer vaccine but no cases of Bell’s Palsy among those who had the placebo? I wasn’t given that information.

              “Publicly available data from the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccine trials suggest an imbalance in the incidence of Bell's palsy following vaccination compared with the placebo arm of each trial. Combining data from both trials, among nearly 40 000 vaccine arm participants, there were seven Bell's palsy cases compared with one Bell's palsy case among placebo arm participants. This estimated rate ratio of roughly 7·0, suggests vaccination might be associated with Bell's palsy (p=0·07). … the observed incidence of Bell’s palsy in the vaccine arms is between 3·5-times and 7-times higher than would be expected in the general population. This finding signals a potential safety phenomenon and suggests inaccurate reporting of basic epidemiological context to the public.“

              As Weka says, this is not about whether there are serious side effects, it’s about health consumers being told about the serious side effects before they are vaccinated, if indeed they decide to be vaccinated. How many people in NZ were given the above information before they were vaccinated? I would hazard a guess and say almost none.


              • Rosemary McDonald

                How many people in NZ were given the above information before they were vaccinated? I would hazard a guess and say almost none.

                Some of us have been keeping up with this since day one.

            • weka

              I've been listening to the people who were vaccinated and weren't given the information. Which is why I said that in my original comment. Instead of asking about that, you just said you were as if that makes the people who weren't disappear.

              Obviously some people will get the info and some won’t. I was talking about the ones that don’t. That was clear from context.

              Drugs are routinely prescribed and given without informed consent, what I'm saying is not particularly controversial.

        • Shanreagh

          I was too. There was information sent out even before I went for my appointment. When I went in the first time I had a review of what I had written down by a medical person ie it went from the reception people to a pile where this person/people looked at it and called me over. My records were noted, presumably on the basis of my health disclosures on the form.

          After that we sat waiting and the vaccinator came to collect us with our records in their hand, spoke to us individually then vaccinated with a quick run through of possible side effects and what to take if in pain. Mainly related to muscular aches and pains and soreness on the vaccination arm.

          The records then went to those looking after the waiting game. We were called up when our time was up and given a partially completed vaccine card and a single sheet page A4 sheet with writing on both sides with all the possible side effects to look out for. Then the second time, same process…..with a now completed card and another copy of the sheet of possible side effects.

          Partner went to a different clinic but had same process. Friend went to a special Marae based clinic very early on and she came away with the same stuff.

          I felt that there was a huge effort made to inform us of the possible side effects both before signing and after. Of course me being me I had already gone on line to Medsafe and looked at them myself. I had difficulty hearing through a mask the second time and they had a sort of 'retiring room' where the person could ask personal questions in a clearer voice.

      • Cricklewood 3.1.2

        Interestingly my 70+ uncle had his eyesight deteriorate suddenly after his second. Lasted about 10 days just long enough for him to get new glasses he didnt end up needing… he didnt bother reporting just thought it was because he was old.

    • Matiri 3.2

      However rates of Myocarditis after infection with the Covid 19 virus are considerably higher ie as high as 450 cases per million infections in males between 12 and 17 in this particular study.


      It is all about relative risk.

      • weka 3.2.1

        the issue is probably more about children's rates.

        • Shanreagh

          And people 20-39 who are not children. They will make their own minds up and give their own consents.

          The point though with children is that the responsibility lies with the parents to disclose, discuss with the vaccinators on behalf of their children. Obviously the older a child gets the less likely they are to need a parent to speak for them, ie you may have your own questions but parent/s generally still has to give consent.

      • Bearded Git 3.2.2

        Exactly….the myocarditis stuff is anti vax scaremongering

        • Cricklewood

          Heart issues are pretty scary from personal experience, the scare tactics work in part because of poor information.

          If potential side effects were more publicly discussed ie Myocarditis and if it was explained that the risk of developing it from catching the virus was much higher the oxygen disappears.

          But when you have very simplistic messaging like the vaccine is safe and effective and Facebook and YouTube removing content from people that do have bad reactions you leave space for the conspiracy theorists.

          Imho its far better to have a warts and all conversation about the vaccines, their risks and those risks compared to actually catching covid.

        • weka

          "Exactly….the myocarditis stuff is anti vax scaremongering"

          Or, it's about being honest about the costs of vaccination and making sure that we look after the people that have bad reactions. Pretending that the vax is all good, and no harm, and that anyone who says there is harm is scaremongering, is ableist bullshit. NZ is really bad at looking after unwell and disabled people.

          Why not just be honest?

    • SPC 3.3

      Most of the problem appears to be with younger males – so much so one might hazard a guess it has something to do with testosterone and amount of blood vessels in the arm of these “growing” males (and following from that an issue of vaccine going into the blood rather than the arm muscle – which speaks to the method of vaccination as much as the vaccine).

      • Cricklewood 3.3.1

        Yeah it does seem that aspirating the needle is a small step that could prevent a fair number of issues. Not taught anymore by the sounds because its such a low risk on the shoulder.

        But… when your are vaccinating millions of people many of them in unusual age groups that small chance becomes a rather large number of people.

  4. The total of reported cases of pericarditis and myocarditis across the 33 weeks of data of Pfizer vaccine side effects is 169.

    According to the report the cases investigated numbered 118. There were 61 who were diagnosed after the first vaccination and 57 after the second vaccination. A number of deletions are always made from the Carm reports as these are self reported and are often not verified by independent medical data.

    ‘A total of 61 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis after dose one and 57 reports after dose two were reviewed (Figure 1 shows the numbers for each diagnosis).’

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.1

      You need to look a little deeper. Medsafe have been known to accidentally 'lose' cases, reported deaths even…busy folks that they are.

      A number- pedantic mate spent some time on the telephone tonight explaining why she has written to Medsafe asking them to clarify those two numbers…it clearly states there are 169 cases of myocarditis/pericarditis in the Adverse events of special interest (AESI) up to and including 16 October 2021 chart. If indeed the missing 51 have been discounted because they were 'self reported and not verified by independent medical data' then CARM should specify this.

      I will pass your opinion on to my very concerned friend, but I suspect I already know what her response will be..

      • Shanreagh 4.1.1

        The Safety report No33 actually mentions how they got to the figures in the report.

        'Medsafe and CARM have reviewed the reports of myocarditis and pericarditis received up to 14 October 2021. Cases where a diagnosis from a doctor was not reported were excluded as well as cases reported with an onset time greater than 30 days, since these are unlikely to be related to vaccination.'

        There are pluses and minuses in using the data from self reported 'events' . The plus is that it does encourage people to submit, the minus is that unless it is verified it is hard to work any scientific research on them.

        I am not buying into the losing of reports theory. There is more than enough anti vax rubbish circulating without manufacturing any more.

      • Editractor 4.1.2

        The number 169 is for all cases reported (i.e. vaccine related and vaccine unrelated) up to and including Oct 16. "Medsafe and CARM have reviewed the reports of myocarditis and pericarditis received up to 14 October 2021", so it is possible some of the 169 cases occurred after the 14th.

        Most of the discrepancy, however, will be because "Cases where a diagnosis from a doctor was not reported were excluded as well as cases reported with an onset time greater than 30 days, since these are unlikely to be related to vaccination."

        • UncookedSelachimorpha

          Yes, the 169 are not necessarily caused by the vaccine.

          As the reports mention, the myocarditis is usually mild and readily treated.

          The most important data point on this issue:

          NZ Pfizer doses to date: 6,952,992

          NZ myocarditis (and in fact any cause) deaths likely due to vaccine: 1

          1 in almost 7 million. If you buy a $7 lotto ticket, you have an 18x greater chance of winning the first division.

          Compare that to 1 in 451 Americans being dead from Covid so far.

  5. Pete 5

    Do I get a vaccination, a prick, a jab, an injection or get immunised? No, I get a 'dot.'


    Id i ots.

    • Shanreagh 5.1

      If it helps get people immunised……..let's dot away. Maybe they could become rugby players as a result – they often 'dot the ball down by the corner flag'.

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