Daily review 05/10/2022

44 comments on “Daily review 05/10/2022 ”

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1. pat 1

   5 October 2022 at 7:45 pm

   Sigh..

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/476120/faafoi-rejects-criticism-over-new-lobbying-boss-role

   [rereading this thread, I’m letting you know now that you have my moderator attention. This is a pattern of behaviour: writing obscure comments, getting antsy when people ask for clarification, sometimes attacking other commenters. I’m making a note in the backend. Next time I see you do this I will moderate. If you don’t understand the problem please ask. You bring plenty of good stuff to TS, and it would be good if you could drop what is starting to look like flaming. You don’t *have to engage with people that reply to you, but if you do, please think about what makes the debate more informed, interesting and robust, and less agitated. Thanks – weka]
   • Muttonbird 1.1

     5 October 2022 at 7:54 pm

     Can't see the problem here. Someone has to advocate for the socially conscious left's interests because you can be sure Farrar and co will not.
     • pat 1.1.1

       5 October 2022 at 8:00 pm

       The very fact you "can't see the problem here" demonstrates the problem
       • mickysavage 1.1.1.1

         5 October 2022 at 8:03 pm

         Neale Jones and Clint Smith are two of the most perceptive and progressive commenters in MSM right now. Can you remind me what the problem is?
         • pat 1.1.1.1.1

           5 October 2022 at 8:09 pm

           When did it become acceptable, no, expected, that ex politicians would monetise influence and inside knowledge to the detriment of democracy?
           • Muttonbird 1.1.1.1.1.1

             5 October 2022 at 8:22 pm

             You finally said something, hallelujah!

             Ex-politicians do this all the time in various guises. Jong Kee is an expert.
             • alwyn …

               5 October 2022 at 8:50 pm

               Do you have something against Koreans? As I'm not familiar with the person you are commenting on can you provide some information about their supposed sins.
               • Muttonbird …

                 5 October 2022 at 8:53 pm

                 It's a nickname made up for John Keys, former PM of New Zealand.

                 Are you upset about it?
                 • alwyn …

                   6 October 2022 at 10:00 am

                   "John Keys, former PM of New Zealand".

                   John Keys was a former New Zealand Prime Minister, you say?

                   And when was that? I certainly don't remember anyone of that name having been our PM.
                   • Chris …

                     6 October 2022 at 10:14 am

                     Didn't you know John Keys, Christopher Luxton and Mike Hoskings are all the same person? You need to get with the programme.
                   • Incognito …

                     6 October 2022 at 10:19 am

                     Even Google algorithms do better than your binary brain. Anywho, John Keys was succeeded by Bill Engels followed by Beau Bridges, Todd Miller, Jackie Collins, and now Luxton who will be replaced soon by Nicole Wills.
                   • alwyn …

                     6 October 2022 at 7:07 pm

                     @Incognito

                     My, my. What an amazing number of former NZ PMs you know that I have never heard of.

                     You seem to have left out one though. I have a vague memory of a Cindy Aardvark or something like that. What happened to her?
                   • Incognito []

                     6 October 2022 at 8:38 pm

                     Oh dear, you seem to have taken a wrong turn again. I tried triggering your binary brain and failing memory with a recent context that I thought you’d be most familiar with: the failed Leaders of the National Party of Shambles.

                     FYI, she still is the PM of NZ. Next time, better first ask your parsnip.
           • mickysavage 1.1.1.1.1.2

             5 October 2022 at 8:47 pm

             You have no idea do you. Left wing commentators should under no circumstance create a job where they can engage in MSM discourse and project progressive ideas but for the right it should be whatever they can get away with.
             • weka …

               5 October 2022 at 9:14 pm

               Isn't the problem not that he's gone into PR, but that he did so so soon after being a Minister? Would really like to see that particular critique run past historical examples though.
       • Muttonbird 1.1.1.2

         5 October 2022 at 8:05 pm

         What is the problem? You didn't explain it in your post at 1. It's lazy mate. I and other forum members don't have time to decrypt one word comments.

         Sort your shit out, please.
         • pat 1.1.1.2.1

           5 October 2022 at 8:11 pm

           If you dont have time (or the perception) then its not my shit that needs to be sorted.
           • Muttonbird 1.1.1.2.1.1

             5 October 2022 at 8:16 pm

             It's bannable offence here to drop links without comment. It's also very rude because no-one knows what you actually think, if you indeed think anything.

             What is it you don’t like? You ask others to do the work for you. We're busy, so get fucked.
             • weka …

               5 October 2022 at 9:12 pm

               It's not a bannable offense, but telling people to get fucked can be.

               Agree it's rude expecting other people to mindread. It's Pat's thing, I have no idea what the advantage of it is.
               • Muttonbird …

                 5 October 2022 at 9:20 pm

                 Apologies, it must be dropping comment without links. I do get confused with the differences in moderation style here.
                 • weka …

                   6 October 2022 at 10:32 am

                   I should write a post.

                   It helps to understand the reasoning why certain styles of commenting are frowned upon.

                   Posting lots of links and nothing else is spam (hope that doesn't need explaining)

                   Posting an occasional like with a throwaway comment isn't a problem on its own. It's just normal conversation.

                   Posting a copy and paste with no link is a problem because it forces readers to do the work if they want to understand the context or fact check anything the commenter is saying/claiming. Debate flows *much better if quotes have links. The quality of ensuing conversation is almost always higher, because people can see the bigger picture. Quotes without links generally lead to people reacting to the quote and not the context it was made in.

                   But I agree with you that in this case the link and no explanation was rude. It's usually better to put one's ideas out with a link as a way of introducing the topic or telling people why the link matters.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     6 October 2022 at 11:20 am

                     I had no idea what Pat thought or what his/her position was.

                     Was it a criticism of lobbyists in general (a reasonable criticism and one echoed by gsays @ 1.1.2.1.1), was it a criticism of Faafoi in particular, or was it about the speed of transition from Politics to PR.

                     Pat forced me to mind read and I reacted. I reacted the way I did because sometimes you have to shout before people get the point.

                     Apologies for the language.
                   • weka []

                     6 October 2022 at 12:21 pm

                     thanks MB. Please read my comment below to Shanreagh.

                     .https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-05-10-2022/#comment-1914068
                   • Shanreagh …

                     6 October 2022 at 11:37 am

                     But I agree with you that in this case the link and no explanation was rude. It's usually better to put one's ideas out with a link as a way of introducing the topic or telling people why the link matters.

                     Also rude are the comments that followed from the same poster casting aspersions on others if they could not see the 'shock, horror' in the initial unintroduced link. I still cannot to be frank.

                     For what it is worth I do not see a problem with lobbying and it is far better when it is out in the open. Lobbying has been around for years and years.

                     In the olden days when there were portfolio private secretaries who were part of the secretarial corps it was very usual for these people to leave and become lobbyists. and these were the staff! They were picked up by PR/Lobbying firms who offered their wares to one side or other in Parliament.

                     Former Ministers were appointed to high flying/important boards and not always well known. For instance it is my belief that the appointment of Friedlander to an important position in the Road user industry was an important 'driver' (excuse the pun ha ha) for the choice of roads and not rail for future govt investment. Something we are still reaping the results of to this day as trucking behemoths churn up roads and logical rail languishes.

                     It is naive to think that lobbying is bad or should not happen. As long as their is some sunshine about it and Faafoi is certainly helping shine his own sunshine then there is less to worry about.

                     Knowledge about who the lobbyists are is as important as knowing who the donors are to political parties. Many large donors make similar sized donations to all the parties as a means of ensuring that all have a chance to 'compete'.
                   • weka []

                     6 October 2022 at 12:18 pm

                     I agree the subsequent comments were a problem too (in large part because it treats TS as FB, but also it just winds up other commenters). It’s a pattern of behaviour.

                     One thing that other commenters can do is just ignore the comments that are obtuse. Don’t reply to them, instead pick up the topic and handily provided link and start a brand new comment down below and lead a conversation that is rich and robust and informed. Like the comment you just made.

                     Commenters have a role to play in curating good and robust debate culture here, it’s not just on the mods 🙂
                   • Incognito []

                     6 October 2022 at 1:14 pm

                     Guilty!
     • gsays 1.1.2

       5 October 2022 at 8:59 pm

       It's sweet but naive to think it is the socially conscious left's interests that are going to be met.

       Troughers gotta trough.

       After all the usual reason for leaving was given, time with young family …cough*bullshit cough*cough

       https://www.newsroom.co.nz/labour-reshuffle-as-pressure-goes-on-police-minister?amp=1

       Pat's sigh was highly appropriate.
       • Muttonbird 1.1.2.1

         5 October 2022 at 9:07 pm

         t's sweet but naive to think it is the socially conscious left's interests that are going to be met.

         I live in hope that chipping away at the neoliberal block will eventually result in a permanent change in political culture here in New Zealand.

         Not going to happen if pretend lefties undermine any and all attempts to shift the window.
         • gsays 1.1.2.1.1

           6 October 2022 at 5:57 am

           "I live in hope that chipping away at the neoliberal block will eventually result in a permanent change in political culture here in New Zealand."

           I am right with you there.

           I don't know the stats, but I am willing to wager a precious part of my body that there has been a significant rise in lobbyists in Wellys since this odious neo-liberal experiment started.

           Fafoi and his ilk, complete with their swipe cards that access all areas of parliament, are feathering their own nests first and foremost.

           My reckons say that lobbyists are fundamentally undemocratic. It undermines one person one vote.

           The pollies love it, they are the recipients of the baubles. Like the register of pecuniary interests, I want a list of every contact our MPs have with lobbyists.

           Now watch the defenders of this sleazy behaviour say 'Its too hard/time-consuming/commercially sensitive…'

           Nandor Tanzcos says he was far more effective at change outside of parliament than within it.
           • Incognito 1.1.2.1.1.1

             6 October 2022 at 10:11 am

             Like the register of pecuniary interests, I want a list of every contact our MPs have with lobbyists.

             It seems that they don’t want let any sunlight into the shadowy corridors of power – 10 years ago, the Green Party tried to introduce a Bill to do exactly that, but it failed, of course.

             Add this to the grey area of political donations and the highly controlled trickle of information through the OIA and a very clear picture emerges of a stark separation between the people and their so-called representatives not to mention the large army of Public Servants let by so-called ‘mandarins’ and ‘head honchos’.

             It wouldn’t surprise me if turn out at the General Election will be much lower than in 2020, but that’s the way some to want it, as is evident by their (in)actions. IMO, only the Green Party truly campaigns for real transparency and open government, the other parties play lip service, at best.
           • Shanreagh 1.1.2.1.1.2

             6 October 2022 at 12:00 pm

             Lobbying is not a function that has solely arisen since the neo-libs etc. For instance since time immemorial Fed Farmers, Manufacturers Assoc and other groups have been having meetings with politicians. Earlier were the lobbying groups to do with Tobacco and Liquor interests

             Couple this with the ability to appoint people to Boards, remember why the quango hunt was so important not so much from a cost perspective but to illustrate the reach into our day to day life of parliament.

             Then there are the groups such as the Grocers Association and Road Industry (Rich & Friedlander) to have people who know how the system works and who are the people to contact. And remember too that former Ministers from any party may have the respect of successive govts if they have been sound and done their portfolio well. Many Ministers, from my little experience become almost apolitical once appointed to a portfolio and are not overtly pushing their views on every occasion.

             Obv they will push signature legislation but in dealing with the minutiae there is often not a political slant to take. They may be welcomed to give a knowledgeable point of view
       • Shanreagh 1.1.2.2

         6 October 2022 at 11:44 am

         So you think the hours of a lobbyist/PR person are similar to a Minister or MP? Not so.

         One can spend time with family with a regular time job outside or one with shorter hours If you have experienced the life of a Minister in Parliament where attendance can be with punishing hours then the life of a regular worker will automatically give a person more hours to spend with family.

         But then that would not fit the narrative you and Pat are trying to push.
       • Shanreagh 1.1.2.3

         6 October 2022 at 12:44 pm

         Weka…..

         This is great advice.

         One thing that other commenters can do is just ignore the comments that are obtuse. Don’t reply to them, instead pick up the topic and handily provided link and start a brand new comment down below and lead a conversation that is rich and robust and informed.
   • weka 1.2

     6 October 2022 at 12:26 pm

     mod note. Please acknowledge that you have read it.
     • pat 1.2.1

       7 October 2022 at 12:39 pm

       [rereading this thread, I’m letting you know now that you have my moderator attention. This is a pattern of behaviour: writing obscure comments, getting antsy when people ask for clarification, sometimes attacking other commenters. I’m making a note in the backend. Next time I see you do this I will moderate. If you don’t understand the problem please ask. You bring plenty of good stuff to TS, and it would be good if you could drop what is starting to look like flaming. You don’t *have to engage with people that reply to you, but if you do, please think about what makes the debate more informed, interesting and robust, and less agitated. Thanks – weka]

       This?

       You may wish to consider the following.

       [unlinked quote deleted]

       Gsays appeared to have no difficulty comprehending the expression…"Pat's sigh was highly appropriate."…indeed IIRC it is a posting technique adopted by some moderators.

       As to the content you youeself expressed some supporting disquiet…."Isn't the problem not that he's gone into PR, but that he did so so soon after being a Minister? Would really like to see that particular critique run past historical examples though"

       As to upsetting certain individuals with commenting style or content I would suggest a mirror may be the first course of action and note that I regularly show extreme restraint and more often than not simply leave the the content to speak for itself.

       If that does not satisfy you, then I suggest your only course of action is to ban me
       • weka 1.2.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 9:14 pm

         if you believe that the rules here shouldn't apply to you, then you probably will get banned. Up to you.

         I've deleted the unlinked quote, but the problem wasn't with you sighing. I think I explained the problem, but if you want to know, just ask. Again, up to you.
         • pat 1.2.1.1.1

           7 October 2022 at 9:23 pm

           "How is sigh used in real life?

           In digital communication, people write out sigh in commentary on–or reaction to–various content. It is also used to mark the tone on a post or message.

           Often, sigh written just as sigh after a remark or on its own. It may also be written as *sigh*, the asterisks acting like stage directions. Some even write le sigh for emphasis or irony."

           https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sigh#:~:text=In%20digital%20communication%2C%20people%20write,asterisks%20acting%20like%20stage%20directions.
           • weka 1.2.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2022 at 9:27 pm

             Like I said, there was no problem with your use of sighing.
   • Muttonbird 1.3

     6 October 2022 at 8:47 pm

     Once were Lefties.

     It must be seriously uncomfortable when you find yourself thinking lock step with David Farrar.

     https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2022/10/from_cabinet_straight_to_lobbying.html

     It worth a post, the phenomenon of old lefties bowing out of politics altogether because the Labour Party has moved on to more important, current issues.
2. joe90 2

   5 October 2022 at 8:41 pm

   A brain drain like this can't be good for Russia's future..

   Almost two weeks after the announcement of partial mobilization, approximately 700,000 people left Russia, 200,000 of them went to Kazakhstan, Forbes found out. How many of the tourists who left and plan to return is unknown Almost 1 million people have left Russia since the start of mobilization, a source familiar with the Kremlin's estimates told Forbes. Another interlocutor in the Presidential Administration clarified that we are talking about 600,000 – 700,000 Russians. At the same time, it is not possible now to calculate how many people who left the country for tourism purposes, he emphasizes.

   google translate

   https://www.forbes.ru/society/478827-rossiu-posle-21-sentabra-pokinuli-okolo-700-000-grazdan
   • Muttonbird 2.1

     5 October 2022 at 8:49 pm

     Lone Skum had a pretty good solution to the Ukraine war.

     Ukraine-Russia Peace:

     – Redo elections of annexed regions under UN supervision. Russia leaves if that is will of the people.

     – Crimea formally part of Russia, as it has been since 1783 (until Khrushchev’s mistake).

     – Water supply to Crimea assured.

     – Ukraine remains neutral.

     — Elon Musk (@elonmusk) October 3, 2022

     This guy knows a bit about Apartheid I think.

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2022/10/russia-ukraine-war-elon-musk-sparks-outrage-on-twitter-after-offering-solution-to-end-war.html
3. aj 3

   5 October 2022 at 8:56 pm

   Jimmy Carter turned 98 on October the 1st. A polarising figure as a president within the USA. Has a far higher EQ than any president since. Has some integrity and perhaps the last 'Democrat"

   https://twitter.com/NoColdWar/status/1576317498693414912?cxt=HHwWgMDTrbqamuArAAAA
   • joe90 3.1

     5 October 2022 at 9:13 pm

     China has not been in combat with anyone.

     Only if you ignore the Sino-Vietnamese conflicts and recent China–India skirmishes.
     • roblogic 3.1.1

       5 October 2022 at 10:32 pm

       And if you conveniently wallpaper over Tibet, Hong Kong, Xinjiang. And turn a blind eye to China's wanton destruction of fisheries around the world. And forget about its debt traps that are a form of economic sabotage. And its attempts to crater Pacific Rim economies by money laundering and inflating property markets. And its (actually quite brilliant) criminal hacking exploits.

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