Daily Review 06/11/2017

102 comments on “Daily Review 06/11/2017 ”

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1. adam 1

   6 November 2017 at 7:03 pm

   So h.r.c rigged the primaries. Not so much of a conspiracy theorists now those on the left who said it looked suspect.
   • joe90 1.1

     6 November 2017 at 7:09 pm

     Fake news.

     .@donnabrazile to @GStephanopoulos: "I found no evidence, none whatsoever" that primaries were "rigged." https://t.co/VIf58CMTlk pic.twitter.com/6XXFgPnPMP— ABC News Politics (@ABCPolitics) November 5, 2017

     https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/927177726334603264
     • marty mars 1.1.1

       6 November 2017 at 7:13 pm

       Why am I not surprised …
     • rhinocrates 1.1.2

       6 November 2017 at 7:43 pm

       And:

       https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/04/top-clinton-staffers-hit-back-at-brazile-244554

       http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/07/tweetstorm-bernie-sanders-former-press-secretary-amazing/

       https://thedailybanter.com/2017/11/nbc-just-exposed-donna-braziles-rigged-claim-as-a-total-lie/

       With a very appropriate quote:

       If you can’t stop your fucking bitching about Hillary Clinton for one goddamn second because she hurt your precious fucking feelings you’re not a progressive fighting for a better tomorrow, you’re a fucking spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum because you didn’t get an iPhone for Christmas. You, yes you, are part of the problem and you’re making things worse by falling for this transparent garbage.

       If I said it, I’d probably add a few more fucks, fucking, morons, narcissists, millennial brats, emos and then a few more fucks.

       A very dear friend of mine is now posting regularly about suicide because she’s one (she falls into a number of categories, actually) of the minorities targeted by Trump, so I don’t fucking care about your “Ooh, Hillary is the Devil! Pizzas!”

       But what the hell, you’re in a co-op and you might have a man bun and all that matters to you is scraping up some spurious vindication based on spiteful misrepresentation by someone who’s been proven to be a liar. That’s going to change the world.
       • adam 1.1.2.1

         6 November 2017 at 7:48 pm

         Nothing to see here , move along
         • rhinocrates 1.1.2.1.1

           6 November 2017 at 8:01 pm

           “Nothing to see here, move along” “narrative.”

           I’d add “privileged idiot living in their bubble” too. So EVERYTHING is a cover-up? It must be, right, because then you’d have to face the fact that in the real world where flawed people might accomplish more good that blithely letting truly evil people have their way.

           Yeah, the people who are really suffering and literally fearing for their lives are “nothing to see” for the likes of you.

           A lot of people have expressed their disgust with you, and it’s well deserved.

           Grow the hell up.
           • adam 1.1.2.1.1.1

             6 November 2017 at 9:32 pm

             Please look at yourself, I didn’t launch into a personal attack. If you can’t face the fact that the system is stacked against working people – then you need to take a cold hard look at yourself.
             • rhinocrates …

               6 November 2017 at 9:39 pm

               Of course the system is stacked against working people. You’re not the only person who knows that.

               Try not speaking in cliches.

               Also, I do not care about your precious feelings.
               • adam …

                 6 November 2017 at 9:52 pm

                 I’m not offended.

                 Just pointing out name calling starts flame wars – as I could responded by calling you a low brow thinker who can’t find his moral center in the name of political expediency – then where would we be?

                 That just gets boring.

                 Just stop for two seconds and think.

                 h.r.c was a loser, the democratic party are going down the losers path and we are left with the real possibility with Pence ending up as president. If that does not give you nightmares I not sure what does.
                 • rhinocrates …

                   6 November 2017 at 9:56 pm

                   Fewer nightmares than nuclear war. Unlike you, I remember the 80s, and some here probably remember the Cuban missile crisis.

                   I don’t care if you’re bored or not. I might add that I have a hopelessly unfashionable hairstyle and my friends are uncool too. In the end, my personal moral centre means shit – as does yours. What matters is what happens to real people now.

                   You’re still pouting. I’m not mummy and I won’t give you that iPhone.
                   • adam …

                     6 November 2017 at 10:12 pm

                     Poor poppet – making things up to feel better. The lies from you this evening rhinocrates are outstanding, have to learn how to lie like you then I might be an acceptable here by your clique on the standard.

                     Took offense by my pointing out you have no morals did we.

                     You seem to think you are the arbitrage of political left – just another wet who uses abuse to win the day.

                     How about this for popcorn. If the parties of the left, actually represented the issues and interest of the working class then we should support them. Rather than play this game we been playing since the 80’s – or as you call it, compromise till we get a nazi in the white house. Your real politics has led us here. Not mine, I’m sick to death of the abuse and lies people like you spray to make socialism the enemy. Just so you can give more pathos and go it could be worse.

                     Well it is worse, its get guns out worse, and people like you are the reason we are at this point. Drop the name calling, drop the hiding behind being a smug wanker, and face the reality your world view is why we in the shit, not mine.
                   • rhinocrates …

                     6 November 2017 at 10:18 pm

                     Took offense by my pointing out you have no morals did we.

                     As I said, morals are worthless if they’re not practiced with consciousness of theirs effects, which matter immeasurably more than purity of intention. Fuck morals. Look at effects now.

                     till we get a nazi in the white house

                     Well, I’m sorry to break this to you, but that’s what happened, or at least someone who thinks that Nazis are “very fine people.”
                   • adam …

                     6 November 2017 at 10:38 pm

                     Pence is a real nazi, a christian nazi.

                     Morals do matter, and that is where you and I differ. You have none, and that is your choice. I have a moral centre which I keep to. That’s why I make choices, which are trying to make people’s lives better, not compromising in the name of real politics.

                     So rhinocrates done any direct action lately? Or are you just all blow, and another keyboard warrior?
                 • rhinocrates …

                   6 November 2017 at 10:14 pm

                   Sanders was never going to win. Although his polling was high among alt. democrats, the Republicans had a dirt file on him two feet thick. The Republicans hadn’t run one single attack ad against him when he was polled. Now most of it would hardly be “dirt” to liberals, but it would be political poison to the midwesterners who swung to Trump. His support for left wing governments in South American in particular would have been presented as treason. If you think that every American is going to vote like a Californian or a New Yorker, then, well…

                   In addition, Sanders’ actually record in getting legislation passed in congress is pitiful. He was simply not a successful politician. He could not make alliances to get the votes he wanted, instead he alienated the people who would have been his allies. Brand is not substance.
                   • adam …

                     6 November 2017 at 10:34 pm

                     And yet the democrats lost. The put up someone deeply flawed, and gifted the swing states to the republicans.

                     Sheesh your real politics gets caught out in it’s own lies quickly.
                   • rhinocrates …

                     6 November 2017 at 10:41 pm

                     Then there’s this talk by him about how his “German blood” makes him a “winner.” I’ve got Jewish family old enough to remember where that led and I can’t brush that aside.

                     Really shitty example, Rik.

                     The swing states would never have gone to Sanders. Most likely they would have swung farther right. Now if Nader hadn’t run against Gore, we wouldn’t have had a war in Iraq and if Berniebrats and Greens hadn’t been too so morally pure, then that 3 million popular vote advantage Clinton already had over Trump might have swung the electoral college.

                     That’s leaving aside the gerrymandering and voter suppression, let alone any other interference.

                     But I’ve got to remind myself – I can’t relitigate as you want to. The question is, where are we now? What do we have present before us ? Not what we want, not angels, but real people here and now who aren’t morally pure but who vote?

                     Oh that’s right, you don’t vote. That’s too “vulgar.”

                     You know, I do teaching and counselling work with refugees. For some years now I’ve worked with a man who’s fled a brutal military dictatorship. Last month I helped him enrol and vote for the first time in his life. All terribly “vulgar” I’m afraid.
                   • adam …

                     6 November 2017 at 11:09 pm

                     Wow the old Nader conspiracy theory – sheesh. And you have the gall to run around name calling. Fluffy bunny.

                     And who could have stood up to voter suppression by the republicans, oh wait that would be the democrats – wouldn’t it be?

                     And who voted for the wars – that would be h.r.c would it not?

                     Oh poor poppet, can’t get your head around the idea people don’t worship at the pot of liberalism like you. Some of us actually like democracy, not the shades of one, but yeah too pure for wanting a system where by people feel they are part of it, rather than a pawn for people like you.

                     How about you show some compassion for the almost million kiwis who did not vote, rather than make stuff up to attack me with.

                     So saying morals don’t matter then attack me for being “vulgar” a moral point. Odd your thinking, but real politics does that, makes people lie to justify any old bull.
                   • rhinocrates …

                     7 November 2017 at 12:01 am

                     “Nader conspiracy”? Hardly. No planning, no secret messages. Just stupidity.

                     I’ve a thick skin, so I’m afraid your homophobic labels aren’t working. Still, it’s nice to see you drop your mask and be honest about what sort of person you are.

                     Apart from suggesting that I’m effeminate, “vulgar” is your favourite insult, remember? I was being sarcastic. Surely you must’ve noticed since I’ve been very sarcastic tonight.

                     I hardly “made up” the fact that you refuse to vote.

                     I don’t waste my compassion on people who refuse to vote and then whinge. I do know that people who’ve never had the right to vote before know the value of their vote when they get it.

                     You seem rather confused.
                   • rhinocrates …

                     7 November 2017 at 12:23 am

                     If I were gay (well, I am a little bit), I wouldn’t be embarrassed about it, by the way, but the fact that you want to insinuate that someone might be as if it were shameful is something a number of people will note.
                   • adam …

                     7 November 2017 at 10:37 am

                     You say you have a thick skin, then make stuff up to get offended by. You call me names, then twist like a right wing nut job to make my throw away comment fit into some sort of label so you can feel indignant, smug and superior.

                     You constantly misrepresent my position, by lying. I voted, but just not how you wanted me to.

                     You have no compassion, but you want people to worship your worldview, and will abuse anyone who questions it.

                     So to you 1 million kiwis don’t count, and this is a system they must be part of, because that is what you think. One step away from full blown authoritarianism you are, one step. Stalin would be proud.
                   • rhinocrates …

                     7 November 2017 at 3:07 pm

                     “throw away comment”

                     Casual homophobia and misogyny is still homophobia and misogyny.

                     “Stalin”

                     Okay… we all know the Godwin rule, don’t we?
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               6 November 2017 at 9:40 pm

               Yeah, because working people really need more fake conspiracies to distract them from the facts.
               • adam …

                 6 November 2017 at 9:54 pm

                 Nothing to see here, move along.
       • weka 1.1.2.2

         6 November 2017 at 7:55 pm

         What about if Clinton had won? Because I’m sensing in NZ a bit of conflict already between those that want to run with Jacindamania and those that have a sinking feeling already, not to mention a much deeper sense of anger.

         Bet I’ve got more fucks to say than you if someone calls me a hipster to dismiss my politics too 😉
         • rhinocrates 1.1.2.2.1

           6 November 2017 at 8:04 pm

           I don’t have any love for Clinton, let alone neoliberalism, but I sure as hell know that Trump is worse. People I love are in trouble who wouldn’t have been otherwise, so I’m not going to construct some jerkoff fantasy about my personal moral superiority and pronounce from the peaks of Olympus that “the lesser evil is still evil.”

           I am sick to death of people saying “there’s no difference”. Sure, there’s no difference if you’re

           White
           NOT LGBTQI
           NOT Mexican
           NOT Muslim
           NOT Jewish
           NOT black
           NOT poor
           NOT sick
           NOT a woman
           NOT seeking birth control or an abortion
           NOT corrupt as fuck
           Actually very very rich and probably a stockholder in Lockheed Martin, Blackwater etc.

           No, no difference at all /sarc
           • rhinocrates 1.1.2.2.1.1

             6 November 2017 at 8:17 pm

             Oh, and if you’re a Nazi, you might do well. “Very fine people,” the orange one tells us. Once upon a time America had Werner von Braun to get them to the Moon, now they have Bannon, Gorka and Spencer. They even need better Nazis.
           • weka 1.1.2.2.1.2

             6 November 2017 at 8:17 pm

             True, and I think the “there’s no difference” argument is fundamentally dishonest (same as when it gets used here). But I think Adam ticks some of those boxes of the NOT list, as do many people who are in that lesser of evil debate. My point was more about if we condemn those people (not just their arguments), what happens when we get the eventual Clinton or Ardern in power? Of the people who previously argued that lesser of evils was valid, how many are now going to criticise the shitty and unacceptable things that Clinton or Ardern are doing.

             I’m a lesser of two evils person myself. But I understand that some of the people saying Trump isn’t worse have some solid politics behind them that can’t be written off as hipster rhetoric.

             Basically I’m asking what’s going to happen in NZ now we have a neoliberal-lite govt if lefties like you and adam are so antagonistic to each other’s politics? Because this is close to the scenario that was being argued as the opposing one in the US. It’s not theoretical anymore. Clinton won.
             • rhinocrates …

               6 November 2017 at 8:21 pm

               Politics is always about unfortunate compromises, and we just have to keep pushing. I believe in fighting from a hard position to force a government as far left as possible, but not in throwing childish tantrums and sulking because mummy didn’t give me an iPhone.

               I hate the far right – and the people doing the work of the far right.
               • weka …

                 6 November 2017 at 8:32 pm

                 Yes. That doesn’t address what I raised though.
                 • rhinocrates …

                   6 November 2017 at 9:07 pm

                   Right, I know that you’re arguing in good faith.

                   Of the people who previously argued that lesser of evils was valid, how many are now going to criticise the shitty and unacceptable things that Clinton or Ardern are doing.

                   Rik from The Young Ones, sorry I mean Adam’s problem is that he thinks in binaries, of essences without scale or degree. I problem I had with a lot of parliamentary Labour supporters over the last nine years was that they supported the hollow brand of Labour while it took positions – especially under those shitheads Goff and Shearer – that were contrary to Labour principles.

                   How many will criticise? I don’t know. Probably less than there should be. However, The Standard is not a Labour Party site, as has been made abundantly clear in many, many posts and as is written into the policy. It owes the parliamentary Labour Party nothing. I don’t think that it’s going to acquiesce – I sense a battle coming over TPPA.

                   Focus on the policies at hand, not the personalities, be they Clinton or Ardern. Keep the pressure on, always on policy. We should not do the right’s work for them by blithering about pizzas and lizard people and then congratulating ourselves on how pure we are.
                   • One Anonymous Bloke …

                     6 November 2017 at 9:13 pm

                     Love this series of comments Rhino. Thanks.
                   • weka …

                     6 November 2017 at 9:26 pm

                     “How many will criticise? I don’t know. Probably less than there should be. However, The Standard is not a Labour Party site, as has been made abundantly clear in many, many posts and as is written into the policy. It owes the parliamentary Labour Party nothing. I don’t think that it’s going to acquiesce – I sense a battle coming over TPPA.”

                     Yes and no. We’re talking about the community (authors and commenters). The site has no editorial position, authors write what they want, so do commenters. But, there’s been many more pro-Labour posts this year than pro-Green or pro-left of Labour ones (if we are talking parliamentary politics). And there is a solid contingent of people who are wanting to support Labour with a good start, something I have quite a bit of sympathy for.

                     I’m not concerned about there not being any Labour critique, lol, like that would ever happen. What I’m pointing to is that now we’re not in this constant state of pushing back against National, what’s going to happen? Bill has been talking about this for some time. I’m trying to get my head around the shifting landscape.

                     For me the issue is how to now push back against neoliberalism in this new landscape. We don’t get a break for 3 or 9 years and leave that until National are in again.

                     I get the problems with the left who go down the lizard theory path, but here’s the thing. If us lot here can’t find common ground, if people like adam are routinely ridiculed then they will leave. Adam, thankfully, will most likely stick around, but others will go. And that will leave use with the place becoming more dominated by the centre left crowd. I could make up some witty ridicules about them if I weren’t so tired atm, but what is the point?

                     I guess what I’m getting to here is that now that we’re not in perpetual attack mode, perhaps we don’t have to be quite so hostile to each other?
                   • rhinocrates …

                     6 November 2017 at 9:52 pm

                     OAB, thanks.

                     Weka.

                     now we’re not in this constant state of pushing back against National, what’s going to happen?

                     That’s a very good question and something we should deal with. It’s going to have to be thrashed out, probably painfully, over quite a while. Indeed, it’s quite fundamental. Here’s a good topic then, Where to from here?

                     perhaps we don’t have to be quite so hostile to each other?

                     “Can’t we all just get along?”

                     Well, at the risk of saying, “But he did it first!”, the left proved itself to be its own worst enemy once again in 2016. The fact is, our problem is the purists who are fighting Waterloo all over again. If our objective is to move forward, then we have to move forward. Childish point scoring over conspiracy theories is going to continue to sabotage progress.

                     Speaking of Waterloo, historians argue that while Napoleon was a supreme chessplayer, Wellington’s ultimate advantage was his ability to improvise on the fly with his tactics, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each regiment individually. That is, Napoleon fought as if he had an ideal army, but Wellington knew that he was fighting with “the scum of the earth” – and that is why he won.

                     Where are we now? What do we do next that will have an effect in the real world?
                 • Incognito …

                   6 November 2017 at 10:47 pm

                   @ weka … 6 November 2017 at 9:26 pm [reply buttons ran out]

                   You said:

                   For me the issue is how to now push back against neoliberalism in this new landscape. We don’t get a break for 3 or 9 years and leave that until National are in again.

                   That’s a good point to raise but we should not forget that there is increasing pushback against neoliberalism in many places across the world. It is easy to do when you watch them bicker in the House or constantly get bombarded with the binary and polarising narrative from NZ MSM but it is not about Labour vs. National; just like climate change or shifting of tectonic plates it is a global current.
                   • weka …

                     6 November 2017 at 10:49 pm

                     Not quite getting that Incog. Do you mean understanding what is happening internationally will help us in that here?
                 • Incognito …

                   6 November 2017 at 10:59 pm

                   @ weka … 6 November 2017 at 10:49 pm

                   Sorry. I tried to say that what’s happening here in NZ is a reflection of what’s happening elsewhere in the world too (i.e. pushback against neoliberalism). We should not ‘navel-gaze’ too much but look up & around and take our cues from others when/where possible. Of course, we’re already doing this but I thought it was a good moment to say it out loud.

                   IMHO we tend to get a little parochial here in NZ and too focused on the little local dramas between a couple of individual politicians. The picture is much bigger than that.

                   Yes, I think that would help us here.
                   • weka …

                     6 November 2017 at 11:48 pm

                     ah, a topic for a Guest Post perhaps? 🙂
             • McFlock …

               6 November 2017 at 8:33 pm

               Well, that depends on whether the “shitty” things that are being done are a step forwards of a step back.

               Because 4 more weeks paid parental leave is fine, but it’s shitty if it’s as far as it goes for the rest of the government. But rather than bitching that it’s not a universal allowance to every parent, the two questions are “is it a move forward” and “is it realistic as a move forward in the current environment?”

               I’m glad they flagged another increase by the next election. The immediate hundred days increase is nothing spectacular. It is, however, moving forwards.

               Pike River looks like it might be a serious recovery effort.

               I’m cautious that the tpp will be a fizzle, but I suspect that it will be to the letter of what they offered, not the desire of some to just walk away.

               Big things to look out for will be employment legislation, I guess. But so far they’re still moving into their offices.
               • weka …

                 6 November 2017 at 9:11 pm

                 Labour (and co) will do many good and useful things.

                 Choosing to keep the ETS but giving Shaw the CC Ministerial post, is a compromise but moving in the right direction. Because it shifts the culture and maybe next time we will have even more Greens in govt.

                 Shitty would be signing the TPPA with an altered ISDS clause in it. Don’t really care whether that fits with Labour’s previous statements (from my pov it’s very hard right now to make sense of Labour’s ongoing position apart from the idea that we should trust them because), it’s still shitty.

                 But I guess that answers part of it. The left who want more change than you are going to have to argue with you about that as well as critique Labour.
                 • McFlock …

                   6 November 2017 at 10:15 pm

                   🙄

                   See, now to me “critique”, because it’s more posh, implies an even-handed, intellectual, dispassionate approach that identifies areas for improvement but also recognises and encourages those positive areas that should be sustained or even congratulated.

                   It’s often in the posts, but if I see it in the comments more than generalised whining that the revolution hasn’t happened yet, I’ll be bloody gobsmacked.

                   As for ISDS, I’ll call it if I see it.
                   • weka …

                     6 November 2017 at 10:40 pm

                     “implies an even-handed, intellectual, dispassionate approach that identifies areas for improvement but also recognises and encourages those positive areas that should be sustained or even congratulated.”

                     Yes, that’s how I see it too, and honestly, it’s how I prefer to write both posts and comments. Which begs the question of why I’m feeling the need to be actively critical. All I’m saying is that there is something important going on here and I hope that the more centre left people don’t just write all that off because it’s not presented in the best way.

                     Not sure if you just called my commenting whiney btw 🙂
                   • McFlock …

                     7 November 2017 at 10:06 am

                     You’re one of the least whiney people here, lol. It’s just the tendency of the commentariat.

                     frankly I think the jacindamania thing is more of a media hype than anything else. Most people here have been bitten so many times by potential heroes that we know better than to expect a thousand years of light to gush forth, but that doesn’t mean it won’t be many times better than the last nine years.

                     And a few weeks into it, a little optimism wouldn’t go astray. especially as I reckon Labour would have difficulty getting anything but the most open and banal ISDS past NZ1 or the Greens.
         • McFlock 1.1.2.2.2

           6 November 2017 at 8:19 pm

           Clintion winning would have been Obama take 2 – a reasonable, sane and competent leader handling the geopolitical situation they’d been dealt, making some solid advances but still never getting an inch of credit from the american left and being pilloried and lied about from the american right.

           And then the deranged left and the deplorable right ll sharing the same memes and lies.

           But maybe with one or two policy victories.
           • weka 1.1.2.2.2.1

             6 November 2017 at 8:33 pm

             Can you please translate that into a NZ example?
             • McFlock …

               6 November 2017 at 8:39 pm

               Sure. Ardern announced an increase in paid parental leave, the positive is ignored in favour of a moan.

               Three, six or nine years of this will follow.
               • weka …

                 6 November 2017 at 8:56 pm

                 So you’re calling Descendant Of Sssmith part of the deranged left because they’re being negative at the wrong time? I mean, I can see the problem with the framing and the timing but the point they are making seems quite valid to me.
                 • McFlock …

                   6 November 2017 at 10:03 pm

                   Actually, I quite like a lot of DoSsss comments. But that one is a convenient NZ example of what we will see: Labour do something progressive, someone will post that it’s not good enough and probably tack on that labour are a bunch of neoliberal bastards. Meanwhile, the tories will regard the slightest progressive act as communism run amok in the Beehive.

                   Best thing Labour can do is ignore most of the blog comments, read the posts for interesting ideas and topics of the day, and do their own thing if it seems reasonable.

                   Most internet commenters couldn’t govern food into their mouths without a fucking disaster happening.
           • boggis the cat 1.1.2.2.2.2

             7 November 2017 at 12:49 am

             Clintion winning would have been Obama take 2 – a reasonable, sane and competent leader handling the geopolitical situation they’d been dealt, making some solid advances but still never getting an inch of credit from the american left and being pilloried and lied about from the american right.

             There was a lot of difference in policy between Obama and Clinton.

             She was pro-fracking, even more pro-war than Obama (her criticisms of his not using enough military force), really foolish when it came to foreign policy (again, a ‘might makes right’ fixation on using force), opposed relaxing disastrous drug laws, opposed raising the minimum wage, happily stuffed her pockets with cash from any corporate benefactors…

             Recall that Obama pointed out these same flaws when he defeated her in the 2008 primary.

             So her campaign used a compliant DNC to cheat, assisting her take the primary from Sanders. The corporate media had already lined up behind Clinton, and did their best to minimise Sanders’ exposure and lie about his appeal — because, you can’t let the people know that ‘socialism’ is popular — while also giving Trump’s every brain-fart maximum exposure.

             It is this stupidity, rather than the Republican Party’s eventual repugnant candidate, that set the ground for the electoral outcome.

             Hillary Clinton is even worse than her husband, who at least got distracted somewhat from the neo-liberal agenda through his obsessive chasing of women. Trump is her fault, and the fault of the other corrupt, cheating, lying, weasels splashing about in the cesspool in Washington DC.
             • McFlock …

               7 November 2017 at 9:55 am

               🙄
         • marty mars 1.1.2.2.3

           6 November 2017 at 8:50 pm

           It isn’t between jacindamania – that is just a cheap shot. Some of us can read people and their politics and we are genuinely impressed win Jacinda – not under any illusions about pragmagtism and the realities of running the country. But on this forum it appears we get put into the mania category.
           • weka 1.1.2.2.3.1

             6 November 2017 at 9:07 pm

             I don’t think Jacindamania is a pejorative. I like her and am impressed by her. That’s not incompatible with critique. I just shorthanded the dynamic above. Maybe it’s the Jacindamania crew vs the doom and gloom crew. There, I’ve balanced the stereotyping a bit.

             I was pointing more to the dynamic that the people with the sinking feeling, or the anger, are experiencing. There is this tension between those that want a positive response to Labour and those that are stressed by what is happening. I think that’s worth looking at.

             I’m guessing you’re not feeling that sinking feeling stuff, and not angry with Labour or the potential for glossing over problems?
             • rhinocrates …

               6 November 2017 at 9:09 pm

               I like her and am impressed by her. That’s not incompatible with critique.

               Exactly.

               you’re not feeling that sinking feeling

               Nope, (a) I’m a cynic who started with low expectations and (b) I have fluoxetine.
             • marty mars …

               6 November 2017 at 9:20 pm

               I have dedicated a lot of my energy over the years in fighting inequality and exploitation. I am prepared to give Jacinda time to continue to do things. I don’t begrudge others having different or even opposite views – for me I can’t judge yet. It is too early imo to say Jacinda is this or that – parliament hasn’t even started yet.
               • weka …

                 6 November 2017 at 9:29 pm

                 I’m not actually talking about judging Jacinda, other than what she is already doing. ie. I don’t like her approach on the TPPA.

                 I agree both her and Labour need time. Unfortunately for them the TPPA signing is this week. Not much any of us can do about that, but Labour do have choices in their actions. What is happening now is happening now, already on TS too.
                 • marty mars …

                   6 November 2017 at 9:33 pm

                   What has she actually done on the tppa?
                   • weka …

                     6 November 2017 at 9:46 pm

                     been part of a process that’s reduced the issues to the ISDS. Been willing to sign us into a deal that’s going to compromise NZ. Been increasingly unclear on what Labour’s position is.
       • Union city greens 1.1.2.3

         6 November 2017 at 11:04 pm

         “If you can’t stop your fucking bitching about Hillary Clinton for one goddamn second because she hurt your precious fucking feelings you’re not a progressive fighting for a better tomorrow, you’re a fucking spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum because you didn’t get an iPhone for Christmas. You, yes you, are part of the problem and you’re making things worse by falling for this transparent garbage.”

         Exactly how I view Adam
         • adam 1.1.2.3.1

           6 November 2017 at 11:16 pm

           Oh look, another wet having a go without entering the debate.
           • rhinocrates 1.1.2.3.1.1

             7 November 2017 at 12:40 am

             Oh, “wet”. We should be “hard”? You seem to have a problem with assumed feminine qualities.

             Adam, if you want to talk about your superior moral stance, do it without misogyny or homophobia. You do yourself no favours.
             • boggis the cat …

               7 November 2017 at 12:58 am

               It isn’t mysogynistic to point out the failings of a politician who happens to be a woman.

               Not facing up to the truth — Clinton was a particularly terrible candidate, as evidence for which we have that repugnant monster in the Oval Office — is foolish. You won’t get improvements from the political establishment by ignoring their reprehensible behaviour.
               • rhinocrates …

                 7 November 2017 at 1:39 am

                 “Wet” as a pejorative is misogynistic.
                 • boggis the cat …

                   7 November 2017 at 9:36 am

                   Assuming it is misogynistic seems misogynistic.

                   The usual informal meaning is ‘weak’ or ‘ineffectual’. So are you saying that you consider women to be weak and/or ineffectual?
                   • rhinocrates …

                     7 November 2017 at 3:11 pm

                     The word is used to denote weakness by misogynists – such as Adam. I don’t have to be a misogynist to note that it exists or call out its use. You may as well say that if I call out someone for shoplifting, I must be a shoplifter.
                   • adam …

                     7 November 2017 at 6:50 pm

                     rhinocrates the fact you think women are weak and feeble because of their gender, says more about you than any word I may use.
                   • weka …

                     7 November 2017 at 6:55 pm

                     Have to say, I find the term wet as a pejorative in political debate to be problematic in terms of sexism.

                     But you’re all intent on being mean to each other so it’s a difficult situation to have that conversation in.
             • adam …

               7 November 2017 at 10:20 am

               Just making stuff up again rhinocrates – will you ever stop with your lies?
               • marty mars …

                 7 November 2017 at 10:41 am

                 Actually it was you that put the fake news up. Look in the mirror.
               • rhinocrates …

                 7 November 2017 at 3:14 pm

                 Really, what did I make up? You used “wet” as a pejorative” and that word is used as a word of contempt for women or “effeminate” men. Even Boggis, in their confused way, admits that.

                 You typed it, I didn’t make it up.

                 Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got a few hundred thousand Kulaks to deport to the Gulag.
                 • boggis the cat …

                   7 November 2017 at 3:46 pm

                   Even Boggis, in their confused way, admits that.

                   No. In fact, I was pointing out that your assumption that it was a pejorative indicative of ‘feminine’ traits made your incorrect assertion odd. Indicative of a misogynistic mindset, possibly.
     • adam 1.1.3

       6 November 2017 at 7:50 pm

       This is why the left can’t win, when the cheaters control the narrative
       • joe90 1.1.3.1

         6 November 2017 at 8:12 pm

         And if folk like yourself and Brazile continue to do the right’s work for them by parroting their spin and willfully misrepresenting positions, compromises and concessions that you don’t agree with, the left will never win.
         • adam 1.1.3.1.1

           6 November 2017 at 9:40 pm

           Bullocks and you know it, h.r.c was a bust and people like you and others jumped on anyone who pointed that out at the time. Now information is coming to hand that it was as dirty as we thought, and saying that make me the enemy.

           Sheesh this is some time to be alive, when you have a position that says yes to having working class control their lives, some so called leftist attack you as the enemy. Truly fubar. Mind you with the liberalism in control – up is down, right is wrong, and being morally bankrupt is the new normal.
         • boggis the cat 1.1.3.1.2

           7 November 2017 at 1:02 am

           ‘The left’ can’t win anything by putting neo-liberal maniacs like Clinton in office.

           ‘Less disastrous than Trump’ isn’t a good enough qualification, clearly. Maybe if Sanders had been given a fair chance the world would be much better off right now: which is the real point behind this.
     • Andre 1.1.4

       6 November 2017 at 8:10 pm

       The best summary I’ve seen…

       http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/11/donna-brazile-and-the-latest-great-hillary-scandal/

       “So Brazile herself, though she obviously disapproves of the JFA, says the primaries weren’t rigged and there was no internal corruption at the DNC that favored Clinton. In something that suprises me not at all, it appears that even though Clinton had substantial authority and could have rigged things, she instead used this authority to raise lots of money; make sure the DNC hired competent people; and try to get the party apparatus working again.

       In the end, then, this strikes me as almost classic Hillary: she did nothing wrong, but practically went out of her way to make it look like she was doing something slippery. I have never seen another human being do this so frequently. But, in fact, it looks like she really didn’t do anything seriously unscrupulous here, and nearly everyone agrees that, in the end, the primaries weren’t rigged in any serious way.²”
       • mauī 1.1.4.1

         6 November 2017 at 8:40 pm

         Goodness, does that article also say Clinton runs through fields with the sound of music. And the party leadership compulsively blurting out “rigged” while she’s doing it is just white noise.

         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3wMN7jLKCs
         • Andre 1.1.4.1.1

           6 November 2017 at 8:53 pm

           Jimmy Dore, huh?

           https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jimmy_Dore
           • mauī 1.1.4.1.1.1

             6 November 2017 at 9:03 pm

             So wikipedia is politics new fact checker now? When the two major headings of his whole biography are “General madness” and “Conspiracy theories” you have to wonder where the balance starts to comes in…

             edit – lol, infact his entire biography comes under those 2 headings.
             • boggis the cat …

               7 November 2017 at 1:06 am

               Wikipedia has had a lot of very heavy editing of content taking place.

               A lot of money being spent.

               If the narrative is inconvenient and difficult to address, then alter the ‘facts’.
           • marty mars 1.1.4.1.1.2

             6 November 2017 at 9:07 pm

             That guy reads like a sack of shit. Sad anyone quoting him.
             • adam …

               6 November 2017 at 9:43 pm

               How about taking people on what they say on something from topic to topic, rather than judge them by one or two actions?

               Or is it much simple to make a box?
               • Andre …

                 7 November 2017 at 5:32 am

                 If someone has been regularly shown to be full of shit in a subject area, it’s worth knowing that before wasting a lot of time on them. Would you expect to waste time unpacking BP pronouncements about the benefits of fossil fuels over and over again?
               • marty mars …

                 7 November 2017 at 9:58 am

                 Grow up Adam ffs you whinge – your guy was and is a sack of shit – end of.
                 • adam …

                   7 November 2017 at 10:40 am

                   So simpler to put in box then. Thanks for the clarification marty mars.
                   • boggis the cat …

                     7 November 2017 at 3:49 pm

                     Are you also vaguely disappointed that you haven’t been accused of being a ‘Bernie bro’?

                     😉
                   • adam …

                     7 November 2017 at 6:54 pm

                     Well boggis the cat they keep saying I support trump. Which is the corporate left’s favourite attack line these days. Along with purist, whinger, whining, and other personal abuse. You get that when you point out that liberalism is fundamentally flawed, just have to roll with the punches.
2. eco Maori/kiwi 2

   6 November 2017 at 7:16 pm

   Brian Edward Cox he’s the man
3. eco Maori/kiwi 3

   6 November 2017 at 7:33 pm

   People they don’t need drones to spy on you they use your phone . They can drive past a house scan and pick up any phone signal that’s being used and listen and watch you
   They can use your lap top any computer all my computer’s have tape on the mic and Camera P.S they won’t even get a warrant because we have to prove what they are doing you can tell if your phone starts draining your battier and your data use spikes Good topics The project
4. weka 4

   6 November 2017 at 8:50 pm

   ” Barnaby Bennett‏ @mrbarnabyb 45m45 minutes ago

   FACT: The current parliament has a smaller opposition than the last one.”

   https://twitter.com/mrbarnabyb/status/927431312540975105
5. eco Maori/kiwi 5

   6 November 2017 at 9:06 pm

   To my Maori cultured People here in Aotearoa and in Australia Kiora.
   I get time travel its all about the speed one travels from the object that one has to use to measure the time one travels forward into time. My wish is that I travel forward into time 40 years and see that all my Maori Cultured People have got Mana we had seized the moment and 40 years ago we all came together as one IWI People we did not use violence to get OUR Mana back we all voted for the political people that could see that we were at a disadvantage to the other people of NZ .
   So they/ we set things up to level out the ladders of life for my People we wiped away the Hinu on every ones top rungs on there ladders of life. Maori people were all displaying our culture non were ashamed of our culture .The most famous sports person in NZ was a maori cultured Lady she played ______________ .
   I watched a lot of good movies about Maori and the Settlers in the 1800 to up to the present date. There are Maori comedies on every Chanel giving us a sore face 1/2 of all our sports teams are Maori no one talks about crime or war as there is minimal and no movies are aloud to be made about war or crime .We have the lowest jail population in the OECD . 90% of all people have there own house there are no health waiting lists. Maori have there fair share of all the resources in NZ and so does every one else.
   We are 100% carbon free and have a pristine environment everything is Kia pai.
   But if we don’t come together as one IWI 40% of us will end up on those reservation for Maori jail and the other 59.9 present will be paddling hard out just to keep there Waka were it is at that time not forward and many are slipping behind. In my view this will be a fact . The present goverment is good to Maori but I have a good view on reality and I say now is the time to act Kia Kaha.
6. Whispering Kate 6

   6 November 2017 at 9:15 pm

   Have just read Bryce Edward’s editoral in the Herald online and I agree with him, Jacinda Adhern has not done enough on the Manus Island tragedy unfolding before us. This will come back to haunt her as the one thing she could have done and that’s stepped up to the plate and told the Australian Government to do the humanitarian deed and release the refugees or at the very least put the power, medicines, water and food supplies back in the compound for them.

   What does this do to our country when the world sees her flying back home having done nothing but accept the word that the US might in the future be taking some of these refugees into the states. Australia may be our biggest trading partner but that still doesn’t excuse us not standing firm with them. It wouldn’t matter if we insulted them and displayed some leadership, they will always want to trade with us, just like some countries trade with dispicable countries, anything for the dollar (us for example with the Saudi Arabia). Autralia’s governments are pretty dispicable themselves and an insult or two is hardly going to stop them trading with us.

   Jacinda, sorry but you have gone down in my estimation but then I never did think you were a true progressive, just a Labour-lite more of the same.

   And, for that matter – where is Winston?? He should be over there sorting the Australian Government out, he is the Foreign Minister for god sake. He hasn’t been seen since the election. He has a big portfolio and so does his mate Shane – so I hope the two of them are out there in the ether somewhere pulling finger and actually doing something constructive.
   • Carolyn_nth 6.1

     6 November 2017 at 9:32 pm

     I often don’t agree with Bryce Edwards. I most often agree with Gordon Campbell, and do agree with his response to Ardern in Australia:

     Given the glacial pace of the US response, and the urgency of the humanitarian crisis on Manus, there is no justification for not proceeding with an approach to PNG right now.
     …
     Globally, the care of refugees continues to fall on poor countries like Kenya, Uganda, Ethiopia and Bangladesh.

     Sooner rather than later, New Zealand has to stand up to Australia over its refugee policy. Otherwise, our silence and inaction will be taken as tacit acceptance, and we will be seen (accurately) as enabling Canberra’s systematically inhuman treatment of hundreds of the world’s most vulnerable people, and their families.

     On the other hand, I am happy with the paid parental leave policy, and with Andrew Little’s approach to Pike River Mine.
   • Pete 6.2

     6 November 2017 at 10:34 pm

     I haven’t seen transcripts of everything that was said about Manus Island between Ardern and Turnbull and any officials involved.

     Has anyone?
     • veutoviper 6.2.1

       7 November 2017 at 10:53 am

       No. And you won’t see transcripts of such PM to PM discussions. These are never public discussions and transcripts are not released.
   • Antoine 6.3

     7 November 2017 at 2:21 am

     > What does this do to our country when the world sees her flying back home having done nothing

     Not much. NZ is a small country and not very powerful, we are not expected to get everything we ask for

     A.
7. Ed 7

   6 November 2017 at 10:37 pm

   Crash coming.
   Rare to see it mentioned in the msm.
   Must be getting close.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11941160
   • boggis the cat 7.1

     7 November 2017 at 1:13 am

     This is what happens when you shift huge amounts of wealth from the poorer classes to the wealthy. Lots of money seeking an easy return on investment, and plenty of brokerage firms bidding up the ‘value’ of stocks.

     The 2007 ‘correction’ didn’t result in any fix to the system, because it was viable to simply force the poorer classes to foot the bill.
8. joe90 8

   6 November 2017 at 11:00 pm

   Of course there’s a connection.

   New Zealand links

   The Australian Financial Review has linked the Paradise Papers to John Key’s lawyer, Kenneth Whitney, saying the documents show he in 2007 set up a trust for a New York investment banker, Neil Winward, who used to work for Dresdner Kleinwort.

   The AFR also reports:

   The files raise questions about the loose oversight role that New Zealand’s government holds over the Cook Islands, a year after the Panama Papers forced changes in how New Zealand foreign trusts operate.

   Former Allens Arthur Robinson lawyer James McConvill reported after a 2010 marketing trip for Appleby to Auckland and Wellington that law firms told him that then Prime Minister John Key was leading measures to promote New Zealand as an offshore hub through foreign trusts, which pay no tax on earnings outside New Zealand.

   “Apparently the New Zealand Prime Minister is personally pushing the proposal, and it is expected to come into effect in 2011,” Mr McConvill reported. “In numerous meetings I was told that this proposal, if implemented, could lead to a lot of work for Appleby and other offshore firms.”

   Cooks Island residents also hold New Zealand citizenship, but Rarotonga​ runs its own foreign policy.

   The Cook Islands was the first country to enact an asset protection law in 1989, under which foreign creditors are barred from challenging the assets of a trust after a waiting period of one to two years.

   https://www.interest.co.nz/news/90746/ird-gets-involved-paradise-papers-probe-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-seek-more

   https://web.archive.org/web/20171106004852/http://www.afr.com/news/policy/tax/paradise-papers-link-to-firm-that-sued-murdered-malta-journalist-daphne-caruana-galizia-20171105-gzf1v0
9. Antoine 9

   7 November 2017 at 2:20 am

   What do people think about this Kelvin Davis quote?

   “Davis said some innovative thinking could be used to rehabilitate women prisoners, whose needs and motives are different to men.

   ‘Men normally do things because we’re a bit stupid. Women normally commit crime to protect others, their families, their children.'”

   A.
   • weka 9.1

     7 November 2017 at 3:01 am

     Please put a link if you are quoting. It’s the polite thing to do, but it also gives people a context for the words.
     • Antoine 9.1.1

       7 November 2017 at 5:08 am

       http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11940296 (sorry)
   • BM 9.2

     7 November 2017 at 6:43 am

     Stockholm syndrome
   • Draco T Bastard 9.3

     7 November 2017 at 12:47 pm

     That such generalisations are really bloody stupid and sexist.

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