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Daily Review 19/06/2018

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, June 19th, 2018 - 49 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

49 comments on “Daily Review 19/06/2018 ”

  1. Arthur 1

    Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.” Captain G. M. Gilbert, the Army psychologist , Nuremberg trails
    Trump lacks empathy.

    • So did Obama’s drones and this country’s far right wing extremists when it comes to child poverty and homelessness.

      • Sabine 1.1.1

        yes dear.

      • Macro 1.1.2

        It’s been repeated many times here before – and obviously it still needs repeating. whataboutism is not a valid form of argument
        Saying Obama “this”, and neoliberalism “that” does not make the atrocity that is currently happening on the US border with Mexico any less evil.

        • Arthur 1.1.2.1

          Thank you.

        • adam 1.1.2.2

          So whataboutism is now an excuses to give Obama a free pass. Joy.

          It’s bad what happening on the Mexico border, but it’s the extension of previous policies. This is not a radical departure from previous policy of Obama, nor Bush. It’s implementation has a whole callous aspect to it, but that the thing with liberalism, it has a callousness to it which many on the left just chose to ignore.

          • Macro 1.1.2.2.1

            It is NOT and extension of previous policy, and you saying it is doesn’t make that true.
            You might like to read a little around this matter before you go making such slanderous and untruthful statements.

            • marty mars 1.1.2.2.1.1

              + 1 yep it seems any goduseless reason to not concentrate on the children suffering now is good enough for some. Sad.

              • adam

                Who is doing what you saying marty mars, or is this more of your just making up shit, approach to a topic?

                • marty mars

                  So aggressive you are – better watch your blood pressure their bub. Figure it out Einstein.

                  • adam

                    All I’ve been able to figure out is you making up shit again. I see you going to avoid the issue, how very Gosman of you.

                    • marty mars

                      What about the children and families adam – when are you going to talk about them? I think it is shocking and Trump and his lowly supporters should be ashamed. I also think that those who want to talk about other shit should start a thread – geddit now? Or do you want to fixate on some thing other than the suffering children and families forcibly being seperated.

                    • adam

                      Maybe you missed it, what is happening at the Mexico border is bad. And yes, children being seperated from parents is pure evil, I didn’t say I supported it, like you want to say I did. Your ‘making shit up’ argument rolls into town again.

                      What I did say, is Obama, and Bush were running with some bloody anti-human being immigration policy, and this is just more of the same, with a callous face. Funny none of that does miss the point, indeed it helps inform people how we got here.

                      But if you wanna go down the road, Oh it’s bad now trump did it, I can’t be bothered, either you face up to the fact the ruling elites hate working people and the poor, or not. Personally I want to see more humanity all round. But probably asking to much from liberalisms sycophants though.

                    • marty mars

                      Yeah well your ‘continuation’ line has as much cred as right wing claims, re ‘child crisis actor’s lines, to me – as in none.

                    • adam

                      Well maybe you might want to get your head out of the sand, and do some reading on US immigration policy for the last 20-50 years.

                      Try here for a start, it gets worse when you look at the amendments to the core act.

                      https://www.diazshafer.com/how-immigration-has-change-last-20-years

                      https://www.businessinsider.com.au/immigration-reform-obama-reagan-mccain-rubio-2013-2?r=US&IR=T

                      The US and many so called democracies have been turning into right nasty buggers when it comes to immigration. But if you want to bury your head in the sand about this issue and not want to have a look at the bigger picture, then feel free to run with what even line it is you think is better. It seems to me, you have your mind already made up, and lies and bs accusations is all you have.

                    • marty mars

                      Yeah anything to NOT talk about the children and families – just Obama bashing – spose it’s better than the Clinton litany. I think you are just a bully. Fundamentally a bully you are imo.

                    • adam

                      You got nothing, so it’s name calling and personal attacks.

                      Calling this attack on children callous is not enough for you. Trying to find out how we got here to this evil situation, is bullying

                      So unless I’m goose stepping to your take on issue, I’m fundamentally a bully. If i’m not worshipping the right leader, I’m fundamentally a bully. If I think we need to look at issue in contect, I’m fundamentally a bully.

                      Let me know when your not channeling your inner 2 year old, and we will have a discussion about this heinous situation, how we got here as a society, and how we can get out of it.

                      In the meantime, see you next tuesday.

                    • marty mars

                      Cheers – thanks for proving my point adam.

                    • rhinocrates

                      cheers – thanks for proving my point adam.

                      There comes a point when the excuses made by the alt.left for the alt.right become effectively identical to the excuses used by the alt.right for themselves and serve the same result.

                      One of the reasons why I can’t be arsed with The Standard much these days. That and the persistent misogyny – see A’s use of feminine identity as an insult, as per his usual habit.

                    • marty mars

                      yep rhino I agree

                      it really saddens me to see the infiltration of bogus bullshitters but I spose that is the way it works – and we can chose to participate or not – for me I’ve taken 6 months off and really see hardly any point in making the effort anymore especially with weka gone.

                      but there are some good, even great, people here and I really cannot tolerate bullys so we’ll see how it all goes.

                    • Bill

                      Adam. Trying to wash reason over the shores of faith? It’s not a happening thing.

                      Trump and his policies came and come from nowhere. They are not based on anything or built from anything.

                      And looking beyond the borders of the US, dead people washing up on the shores of Europe, or refugee camps being burned to the ground in western Europe…these things, though they happen, don’t and didn’t really happen (oh, there was some acceptably fashionable wringing of hands for a few weeks after photographs of Alan Kurdi were circulated) but no-one really gives a toss beyond a head shake and a tut for what happens to “them” in general.

                      But give us a Trump – provide permission and a figure to hate. Then the victims become visible, if but for a moment in the peripheries of that lens.

                      Obama, like Kennedy, will be somewhat mythologised by latter day liberal zealots, and Trump’s role in that (Trump the aberration, Trump the non-continuity) is merely as the foil to contrast the mythological goodness of what came before.

                    • marty mars

                      0

            • adam 1.1.2.2.1.2

              Really, me thinks you should read the policy under Bush and Co. Did you miss the 2006 Secure Fence Act?

              Yeah Trump is the problem, not liberalism as a fubar ideology.

            • Brigid 1.1.2.2.1.3

              Macro, it is an extension of previous policy

              and you saying it is not doesn’t make that true.
              You might like to read a little around this matter etc etc etc

              Do you still have your notes from when you were a student of logic and philosophy and all the things?
              I’d go back and read them.

              • Macro

                No it is not!
                Here is a simple explanation for you:
                https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/19/17475326/family-separation-border-patrol-visual-explainer
                No where in the previous policy were children separated from their parents.

                Before this Trump policy, those who were deemed to have credible fear would be put on a track to see an immigration judge, who would determine whether to grant asylum.

                Some families were released and told to come back for a court date. Others were kept waiting in detention for up to 20 days and, if they hadn’t seen a judge by then, were released and told to return for a court date at some point in the future.

          • Gabby 1.1.2.2.2

            Railing against Obama helps now how exactly addy?

            • adam 1.1.2.2.2.1

              Because these things don’t happen in a vacuum, no matter how much people spin.

              Also I don’t worship leaders, even if the nominally on the left.

        • WILD KATIPO 1.1.2.3

          But it may demonstrate selectivity.

          Up to you , … just my thoughts on some of the inconsistencies around. And we also do not want an echo chamber /one way train of thought either.

          True , the situation needs to be handled a lot better , but I wonder if there is a disconnect by those on the ground and those implementing policy , which tragically , translates to a not so very nice situation such as the one mentioned.

          And that really is my point.

          • Macro 1.1.2.3.1

            The situation is that people escaping from violence in countries such as Guatemala, Nicaragua, and elsewhere are seeking asylum in the US which is one of the main signatories of the UNHCR.

            Growing numbers of families in Central America have been forced in recent years to flee extraordinary, unchecked violence including murder, rape, abduction and forced recruitment of children into gangs. These families have been seeking protection in countries throughout the region.

            UNHCR continues to call on governments to work together to address the root causes in Central America and at the same time ensure safe haven for families fleeing life-threatening violence and persecution.

            http://www.unhcr.org/en-au/news/press/2018/6/5b27fea84/unhcr-urges-family-unity-southern-border.html
            At present there are reports that up to 11,500 children have been separated in recent times from their parents in an unconscionable manner.

            And the situation has the potential to get much worse: The Washington Examiner reported on Monday that the Trump administration could wind up holding some 30,000 illegal immigrant children by the end of the summer, citing a senior administration official with the Department of Health and Human Services. The HHS official told the publication 11,500 children were already being held.

            https://www.vox.com/2018/6/18/17475292/family-separation-border-immigration-policy-trump
            This is purely the result of a deliberate policy by Trump and his cohorts to to for the Democrats into giving financial consent to build his stupid border wall.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.3.1.1

              Growing numbers of families in Central America have been forced in recent years to flee extraordinary, unchecked violence including murder, rape, abduction and forced recruitment of children into gangs. These families have been seeking protection in countries throughout the region.

              And I happen to think that those people should stand up for themselves rather than expect other people to give them a good life. If they banded together it really wouldn’t take much to stop the shit happening.

              • Macro

                You forgot the sarc tag Draco.
                Persons from Honduras make up the majority of those seeking asylum (ie Refugees) in the US.

                Impunity for human rights abuses remain the norm in Honduras. Despite a downward trend in recent years, the country’s murder rate is among the highest in the world. Efforts to reform the institutions responsible for providing public security have made little progress. Marred by corruption and abuse, the judiciary and police remain largely ineffective. Journalists, peasant activists, and lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender individuals are among those most vulnerable to violence. Government efforts to investigate and prosecute violence against members of these groups have generally made little progress. Gang-related violence is an important factor prompting people, including unaccompanied youth, to leave the country.

                https://www.hrw.org/americas/honduras

                • Draco T Bastard

                  You forgot the sarc tag Draco.

                  No I didn’t. If those people want a better life then they should stand up for themselves, band together and make it happen where they are and not give in to the corrupt.

                  • Macro

                    That sounds like a RWN and “taking personal responsibility” type of argument to me. Do you not think that some have already tried that?

                    It’s heart breaking to hear the stories of those who flee.

                    Here is the story of a nurse who was forced to flee from Honduras There are thousands of stories like this, and they are heard by immigration and refugee authorities daily around the world. My daughter worked at the Mangere Refugee centre and in Immigration assessing the stories of Asylum seekers who arrived in NZ. It was a traumatising job. But each one of these stories is carefully checked for accuracy before any decision is made on granting Refugee status.

                    It’s even more heartbreaking to hear that those travelling with children are being separated from them on entering the US because Trump wants to build a stupid wall. As a deterrent this inhumane policy has had no effect whatsoever. The number of arrivals has increased by 5% since its implementation.
                    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics/family-separation-deterrence-dhs/index.html

                  • McFlock

                    You really do sound like Hosking or Trump, Draco. Next you’ll be suggesting refugees be trained, armed and returned from whence they came.

                    People flee to preserve their lives and the lives of their families. “Not give in to the corrupt” is easy to type when you’re not in the clutches of the corrupt. Not so much when you have a child to feed and a gun to your head.

                    There’s a reason people resisting the nazis or other gangsters are called heroes. It’s because many of them are dead.

        • One Two 1.1.2.4

          Of course it’s a ‘valid form of argument’…

          • Macro 1.1.2.4.1

            only to a fool.

            • One Two 1.1.2.4.1.1

              A fool believes they decide what constitutes validity of ‘debate/argument’…

              No matter how many senior managers parrot the ‘whataboutism’ line changes nothing…

              ALL arguments are valid…that you don’t like it or disagree is nothing other than your inability to grasp a simple concept…

              Senior Manager

              • Macro

                A fool believes they decide what constitutes validity of ‘debate/argument’…

                Thank you for proving my case so convincingly

                • One Two

                  Macro, we’ve had these conversations before…

                  Again it seems you falter with elementary level understandings…

                  Just because you or anyone else disagrees with a tabled argument or debate angle….does not invalidate that argument or debate angle…

                  All are valid…think it through senior manager…

                  Edit: Example…Your arguments are lacking in basic logic for the most part…but your arguments are as valid as any other…

                  • Macro

                    I’m sorry One Two but it seems you wouldn’t know what a valid argument was if you fell over one.
                    There are such things as logical fallacies. You might like to read about them sometime.
                    Failing to argue in a logical manner can often lead to an unsound conclusion.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
                    “Whataboutism” is a type of logical fallacy that falls under the category of Tu quoque, or the appeal to hypocrisy. It is an informal fallacy in that it intends to discredit a position or circumstance by asserting the opponent’s failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s).

                    I majored in logic, philosophy, and mathematics, and have taught logic for baccalaureate.

                    • Incognito

                      To be clear, is this the same as the well-known Labour-did-it-too ‘argument’?

                    • One Two

                      Yeah you’ve made the claim about your credentials previously, and again they don’t stack up against the comments you’re making here…

                      Claiming ‘whaboutism’ is a form of censorship and dismissive of the VALID argument Adam made…

                      Certainly there are topics in which you are strong on, however there are some gaping holes in your self proclaimed ‘areas of expertise’…

                      Spruiking yourself tells me you lack belief in your own position…appealing to ‘self authority’ is weak…

                      All arguments are valid, macro…the same way all human beings and their opinions are valid…

                      Nobody is above that!

        • millsy 1.1.2.5

          I think Katipo’s point is that this has been happening in various shapes and forms going back over the last 300 years or so, in the USA. This reallty, truly is par for the course.

          • Macro 1.1.2.5.1

            Whilst the US is hardly a bastion of humanitarian rights – It’s history of near annihilation of native americans, slavery, antagonistic laws wrt to workers rights, slowness in introducing women’s suffrage, poor public health, constant bias against LGBT, abortion, and underlying racial bias, to name just a few social ills – this is a new low in inhumanity and has caused outrage across all sectors of US society. All 4 living past First ladies have condemned the practice. Melania Trump, meanwhile, placed the blame on “both sides,” saying that she “hates to see children separated from their families and hopes both sides of the aisle can finally come together. Hardly a ringing endorsement of her husbands policy. “The churches including those who supported in the past Trump have expressed their concern that this policy is evil; and the both sides of the house disapprove. 56% of Americans oppose the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” policy of separating undocumented children from their parents. 27% of respondents, meanwhile, said they agreed with the policy.

  2. adam 2

    If you need a laugh.

    • Anne 3.1

      From the link:

      In one email the SIS staffer says: “I have had an inquiry from an agency that I deal with, wanting to know if I can put them onto someone who has the capability to tech sweep an area of their business”.

      In reply, Thompson Clark emails back: “Yes mate that’s bread and butter for us” and refers to properties in Auckland and Christchurch.

      “We send our technician in overnight accompanied by one of our Christchurch based personnel to assist with the physical search aspect”.

      The email adds: “I’m in Christchurch next Wed, Thurs so can pop in and discuss the process with them or if they want to action this asap can discuss with them over the phone today to get things happening early next week.”

      In reply, the SIS staffer says: “Excellent. I am glad you guys can do it too as I often get asked for that type of service.

      So, an unscrupulous manager decided he wanted to spy on an employee or group of employees, so he calls upon an unscrupulous SIS operative who jacks up the equally unscrupulous Thompson and Clark to do the job?

      This smells of rotten fish to me.

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