Daily review 19/07/2022

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1. arkie 1

   19 July 2022 at 6:11 pm

   https://twitter.com/makeit16nz/status/1549270667845156865?

   Parliament’s 120 youth MPs have joined the call to lower the voting age to 16 years old.

   The youth MPs, part of a Youth Parliament programme held every three years, took up their seats in the House on Tuesday to question Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and her Cabinet ministers.

   Alongside a two-day schedule of debates and mock-lawmaking, the young MPs have been advocating for the ‘Make It 16’ campaign, asking lawmakers to allow 16- and 17-year-olds to vote in both local body and general elections.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129315422/youth-mps-call-on-parliament-to-lower-the-voting-age?cid=app-iPhone

   Rangatahi once again eloquently call for the lowering of the voting age to 16. As I look at state of the world and our place in it, I find it hard to see any negatives to an increase in the political franchise of our youth.

   If you agree add your name to this petition:
   https://our.actionstation.org.nz/petitions/make-the-voting-age-16
2. Anker 2

   19 July 2022 at 6:25 pm

   Just watching the tele (one news) so can't provide a link.

   A 6 bed unit in Porirua for the most psychiatric needy. Sadly they don't have enough staff to allow capacity
   • Anne 2.1

     19 July 2022 at 7:06 pm

     It is the first of 18 (I think that was the number but can't vouch for that) units that have been cleared to go ahead. One other has reached the building stage but the others are still in the planning and designing stage so it could be a year or two (or three) before they are built and operational.

     There is a shortage of suitable trained staff in NZ sure, but the govt. plans to acquire the trained personnel from overseas. Presumably they will be acquired as they are needed.

     That's what I took from the TV item.
3. joe90 3

   19 July 2022 at 6:28 pm

   Meet Vank Walen.

   https://www.facebook.com/MXDMAGTX/videos/405538291618884/
4. weka 4

   19 July 2022 at 6:29 pm

   This should be interesting. Greens AGM will vote on a remit to change how long delegates have to read and discuss any post-election coalition agreement on offer. Delegates make the decision to accept or reject agreements.

   https://twitter.com/gelukinmusic/status/1549256027245527040
5. arkie 5

   19 July 2022 at 6:37 pm

   And then there's the Peoples Inquiry into Student Wellbeing (full report pdf). While being a student is a transitory experience that is not an excuse for it to be such a struggle. Action on many of these would be welcomed by other low income households too I would imagine.

   Here are some of the key findings of the report:

   • On average, our students are spending more than 53% of their income on rent, yet many report poor living conditions. To put that in perspective,53% is massively above the Housing Affordability Index which states that people should spend no more than 30% of their income on housing.
   • 1 in 3 students regularly don’t have enough money to buy food, clothing, pay bills, get healthcare or other basics, despite 71% juggling work on top of study.
   • One in six students said their shared flat didn't meet their needs but couldn't move because rents were too high.
   • 69% reported poorer mental health throughout the pandemic
   • And taken together, the cost of living and higher education and students’ living conditions make it difficult for many students to be at their best and reach their learning potential. If students were not doing it so hard, New Zealand may benefit from better tertiary education outcomes.
   • In Vino 5.1

     19 July 2022 at 8:32 pm

     This is an utterly criminal state of affairs for a country that used to have a proud record in the area of Education.

     When did this go wrong?

     To my mind, Rogernomics and all the semi-literate fools who supported it.

     Tomorrow's Schools = Educational Decline.

     Student debt = Penalty on Education
   • Sabine 5.2

     20 July 2022 at 8:41 am

     anyone can currently get a job at min wage of 21.40 (plus 8% holiday pay, plus sick leave, plus 3% min Kiwi safer employers contribution).

     any student can go and get a part time job stacking shelfs at a supermarket.

     People the world over work whilst studying.

     But, just as a disclaimer.

     Young people in NZ spend a huge amount of their income on rent. So do all other people be they students or not who rent. Hence why in NZ we have the accommodation supplement as without that many many many tenants would not be able to rent in the first place.

     Young people in NZ have not enough money to buy food, clothing, pay bills, get healthcare despite working fulltime or even two or three jobs. Hence why in NZ we have food grants, emergency grants, dental grants and so on and so forth.

     Pretty much most low income tenants would say that their flats don't meet their needs but can't move because the cost is too high.

     Pretty much most of low income tenants, beneficiaries, or those on a health related benefit will state that their mental health is poor due to stress. Pretty much most of the adults and kids currently will report a drop in mental well being throughout the pandemic

     Taken this all together, we can confidently state that students, low income workers, single parents and other care givers, are all having issues paying rent, food, utilities, doctors etc.

     Maybe it is time to tell students that life is hard sometimes – no effort no gain, no one owes them an education other then basic min required to reach High school and even then you can drop out.

     Maybe its time to tell students that the Universities are paid for by people who are janitors in their universities and the rest of the tax payers.

     Maybe it is also time to tell students that you can always get a full time job and become a part time student, or they could go into an apprentice ship.

     These same students that have ti tighten their belt during their study years will hopefully get employed by a council, government, big corps who will then have the good income to make up for three years of 'student poverty' and 'student loans'. And if that is not the case maybe they studied something that has no value?

     But these students in NZ do not have it any harder then any other worker who finds that their min wage despite all the increases will not hold up to living costs. Ditto for those that have good incomes and want to have a lifestyle still.

     Maybe we really just need to define 'student' firstly, and then decide if the change needs to come from that re-definition. No one needs to go to the Toi Ohomoi for 'kitchen skills' these could be learned in a restaurant as an apprentice. Ditto the Hairdresser, mechanic, and so on and so forth.
     • Sabine 5.2.1

       20 July 2022 at 8:52 am

       edit

       do we think that this dude here is still paying of his studentloan? and should that student loan be wiped?

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/6839032/Bogan-researcher-to-graduate-with-PhD

       When the latest batch of students graduate from Waikato University this week, an "undercover bogan" will be among them.

       At first glance, PhD graduand Dave Snell might look like all the other graduands this Thursday, but look a little closer and the dedicated bogan buff will have a couple of noticeable differences under his formal regalia.

       "Well, I am going to have to wear the goofy hat and long coat, but no doubt I'll have a metal T-shirt underneath."

       Mr Snell said he also had a Beavis and Butthead tie that he planned to pull out for the special occasion.

       The self-proclaimed bogan made global headlines in 2007 when he was awarded a taxpayer-funded doctoral scholarship worth nearly $100,000 to study the "everyday bogan's identity and community amongst heavy metal fans".
6. weka 6

   19 July 2022 at 6:50 pm

   Can someone please explain the rationale here?

   https://twitter.com/nzgreens/status/1549283705969319936
   • Nic the NZer 6.1

     19 July 2022 at 6:59 pm

     Your first mistake is assuming that Nationals economic policy needs to make some kind of sense.
     • weka 6.1.1

       19 July 2022 at 7:03 pm

       lol, no, never. I was hoping someone would explain how tax cuts harm attempts to address inflation.
       • weka 6.1.1.1

         19 July 2022 at 7:10 pm

         and this,

         https://twitter.com/jacobjakemo/status/1548931927196835841
       • Nic the NZer 6.1.1.2

         19 July 2022 at 9:31 pm

         The difficulty with this subject is that people have a collection of different ideas about how inflation works anyway, but here are some typical ones.

         Now as noted in 6.1.1.1, one cause of price increases can be a bunch of corporates who decide now is a good time to put prices up because they will result in profits. This doesn't seem to be the first thing people think of when they discuss inflation but it does seem to be a significant thing happening at present.

         Now onto why tax cuts would be inflationary to the Green party. This is likely because tax cuts leave more income in the hands of the public. In fact this is true of any policy which increases a govt deficit. This provides more spending ability to the people who are left with that income which could be inflationary, especially in cases where the popularity of some goods increases much faster than supply can increase. There are certainly some goods, such as home office tech, which have suddenly come under huge increases in demand (for obvious reasons) and this may have caused those suppliers to increase their prices in response.

         Now when Nationals leader talks about inflation and wants to criticize govt spending he's probably taking this a step further and implying that most people in NZ have too much income at present. Put aside for a minute that Nationals promoted economic policy will be tax cuts (which as I said do increase income left with the public). The implication of this fact, in National party dog whistle, is that workers are costing too much and spending too much and this is the primary reason corporations have increased prices. Never mind the fact that a majority of NZers have gotten real (e.g inflation adjusted) income cuts, and having ignored this then you now have a way to criticize govt policy as being too inflationary. It aligns with enough of the general discussion about savings rates and disposable income that this will make complete sense to some supporters and even many critics won't notice its not true and will merely justify the govt policy in some way.

         Now in the most extreme case the inflation is caused by increased 'liquidity'. Liquidity means spending power and the implication of this term is that govt spending increases bank liquidity and banks then multiply up this by some multiple resulting in their maximal lending capacity, so additional govt liquidity implies increased bank lending. Once reaching that conclusion the implication which is supposed to follow is that longer term inflation adjusts to follow the expansions in lending via this process. Expansion of the liquidity is supposed to translate into inflation and supposedly the reverse too.

         There are a few reasons for doubt in this however,

         1) The way things actually work is govt spending is always borrowed back before being re-spent. The result of this voluntary policy choice regarding govt debt is that no net liquidity is being added by govt spending. What is being added is govt borrowings, rather than something a bank directly spends.

         2) Its official reserve bank policy to lend as much liquidity as needed at the OCR so that banks can always make payments. The implication of this is that banks are never liquidity constrained in how much lending they can produce anyway.

         3) Banks appear to actually assess their lending based on the borrowers ability to repay the loan, or credit worthy-ness. I've never heard of a bank saying no to a borrower because of the banks ability to pay, but you do hear about when the bank questions the borrowers ability to make the loan repayments.

         4) Even if banks did work this way (or some other way which is compatible with this such as a market between savers debtors) what does that have to do with corporate decisions to increase prices or worker decisions to push for wage increases? Most people have next to no idea about what any of the relevant variables are at present including, how much debt the govt has, how much spending the govt is doing, how much money banks owe to depositors, how much lending banks have on issue. If people don't know the value of the relevant variables does it make sense to think they are responding to them?

         However as you can understand when these ideas meet typical reporting on finance you get ideas like QE is inflationary popping up. If you want to understand how inflationary QE is just imagine a realistic analogy for it. Imagine banks stop having saving accounts and instead shift every-ones funds into a current account. The only difference is that this is happening in banks bank accounts at the central bank (where they clear payments with each other and the govt). Would that cause massive inflation? Is that clearly the cause of present inflation in NZ? and if so why have multiple countries had QE policies for a decade and only quite recently price increases.

         Anyway that's an overview of some of the thoughts floating around here.

         BTW, I totally agree with the sentiments of the Green party in that tweet. A National policy of giving out tax cuts in favour of those most easily absorbing the present price increases, over those who are already wearing real income cuts due to those price increases, is certainly unfair as a policy choice. I just don't think talking about inflation is a very coherent way to describe this as unfair.
   • Poission 6.2

     19 July 2022 at 7:10 pm

     Tax cuts are inflationary,as they add to liquidity.As would an increase in benefits or student allowances (mp's councillors etc)
     • weka 6.2.1

       19 July 2022 at 7:18 pm

       liquidity meaning rich people would have more money to spend?
       • Poission 6.2.1.1

         19 July 2022 at 7:24 pm

         Liquidity means simply more money in circulation.Globally Central banks objective is to remove inflationary pressures from the economic system,by wealth destruction ( bringing levered positions to historical costs) such as the 100b$ valuation loss to the NZ property market.
       • Cricklewood 6.2.1.2

         19 July 2022 at 7:36 pm

         It's kinda of a technical point in that you give someone on a low income $100 they spend it all.

         Give someone wealthy $100 they might spend $50 and save $50 so overall less inflationary but doesnt fix the structural problem in that inflation hurts those on the lowest incomes hardest.
     • arkie 6.2.2

       19 July 2022 at 7:20 pm

       Yes but the positive effects of an increase in benefits and student allowances would be much more widespread than tax cuts for the top end. Also it is indisputable that those at the bottom end of the income range are those most suffering from the rising costs in living.
7. joe90 7

   19 July 2022 at 6:53 pm

   After a thirty year hiatus the Russification of Ukraine resumes.

   https://twitter.com/iLepikVonWiren/status/1549133629049212932

   Moscow is carrying out an intense Russification effort in occupied regions, one that appears designed to quash Ukrainians’ sense of history, nationhood and even their language. Targeting what children learn is a key strategy. Ukrainian education “must be corrected,” Russian Education Minister Sergei Kravtsov said at a June 28 meeting of President Vladimir Putin’s United Russia party.

   Yet the Kremlin’s effort extends far beyond the schools. It already has blocked Ukraine’s cellphone network and media in areas it controls, while broadcasting Russian state propaganda about its “denazification” of the country. It has torn down Ukrainian city signs and replaced them with Russian ones. And under a Putin decree, Moscow is trying to get Ukrainians throughout the country to sign up for Russian passports.

   https://archive.ph/lp2wp (wapo)
8. Anne 8

   19 July 2022 at 8:33 pm

   Yet another shit story by some 'johnny come lately' Herald journo:

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pm-jacinda-ardern-photographed-maskless-with-100-plus-crowd/V4UEQFRUB5TFVF7ER4Z2IHOHQQ/

   My reaction before reading the script was: they took their masks off for 30 secs while the photographer took the photo. Sure enough that is what happened.

   Another attempt to discredit Ardern. The death by a thousand cuts syndrome.

   Edit: If you look closely you can see those in the front with their masks in their hands. When quoting Professor Baker, I bet the journo didn’t tell him they were wearing masks but took them off briefly for the photo.
   • Maurice 8.1

     20 July 2022 at 2:04 am

     It is the image that endures – the photograph is frozen in time and the explanation will be divorced from that. The image is inescapable.

     It is ALL about perception …. and the FACT that Arden et al were not wearing their masks at that moment in time and thus seen to be participating in a possible "super spreader" event involving young people ….. with no distancing.

     After all captured actions speak louder than words.
   • Molly 8.2

     20 July 2022 at 9:55 am

     Anne, like everyone in a similar situation they have a choice:

     1, Take a group photo with everyone masked, and have obscured faces (but good PR for mask compliance);

     2. Take group photo with masks off ( for facial exposure, so smiles can be seen, because effective mask wearing is an on/off construct, – who knows?).

     They chose 2. (apart from 1 lone mask-wearer) and this is a forseeable consequence.
     • Anne 8.2.1

       20 July 2022 at 10:58 am

       My complaint was more to do with the journos story which conveniently ignored one or two relevant facts.

       It is easy to say these things with the benefit of hindsight but given the 'gotcha' nature of reporting these days, the dignitaries at least should have anticipated the outcome.

       One point in their favour. Journos expect interviewees to take off their masks when they are being interviewed. And that can be up to 30 minutes, yet they kick up a fuss for 30secs. while a photo is being taken. Agreed though it was not a good look.
       • Molly 8.2.1.1

         20 July 2022 at 11:17 am

         It was a choice. Those that removed masks made that choice.

         After over two years of Covid, you'd think there would be solutions to long interviews where it is apparent separation is achieved, making masks superfluous.

         However, in every situation where exposure is present – people make a choice, and deal with the consequences.

         I don't consider it 'not a good look' – I consider it bad practice.
         • RedLogix 8.2.1.1.1

           20 July 2022 at 11:25 am

           Do you wear glasses? If so have you ever had them fog up when you put your mask on?
           • Molly 8.2.1.1.1.1

             20 July 2022 at 11:31 am

             My partner does, I no longer do.

             He has found a way to fit the mask to reduce the problem, and then takes his glasses off to wipe when needed. He wears the mask all his 9-10 hour day, and is quite active (recording 17-20k steps daily during a work initiated fitness challenge).

             How is this relevant to a photo op?
             • RedLogix …

               20 July 2022 at 11:49 am

               I have worked on two sites that required fit-testing of respirators in order to go into certain areas due to dust hazards. Unless the PPE fits correctly it is useless and from experience I can tell you it is quite easy to fail the test. Beards and even quite modest facial hair will also cause a fit test to fail. (I have also done a fair bit of DIY spray painting of two pack epoxies and polyurethanes and own a bunch of 3M respirators for the purpose. )

               That fogging up of your glasses is due to the fact that the concave area between the bridge of the nose and the cheeks is the usual weak link. Unless properly trained most people will have a gap there that presents the path of lowest resistance and much of your breath will flow through it instead of the mask filter media.

               In ideal circumstances N95 masks may well be useful – but ideal most untrained people are not.
               • Molly …

                 20 July 2022 at 12:06 pm

                 OK.

                 So do you consider mask wearing to be ineffective in terms of reducing the transmission of Covid, thereby rendering any criticism of the photo superfluous?

                 And the testing sounds interesting. How did it test for the incidence and frequency of sneezing and coughing from respiratory infections?

                 Did it consider the contamination of surfaces from the same?

                 (Note: So far avoided Covid, but did catch the one doing the rounds with sudden and violent sneezing. Would've been interesting to know the speed and distance of those droplets)

                 Extra note: Partner has reduced beard to improve fit, in line with your results.
                 • weka …

                   20 July 2022 at 12:28 pm

                   So do you consider mask wearing to be ineffective in terms of reducing the transmission of Covid…

                   It's not. Actual science shows that reduction of airborne virus reduces transmission, by reducing exposure. This is why well fitted masks work better than ill fitted ones, but ill fitted ones work better than no mask. This is a pretty easy concept to understand, it's not all or nothing, I don't know why people are arguing against it.

                   There's a better illustration than this, but this is the one I found easily.

                   

                   https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abc6197

                   edit, source link added
                   • Rosemary McDonald …

                     20 July 2022 at 1:22 pm

                     It would be useful to have a source for the graphic….but I'm guessing it might be fairly recent with the rise and rise of folks out there in the wild…infected but with minor or no symptoms because their wonderfully efficient 'vaccine' is (at the moment) 'working'.

                     In the olden times, and again from The Conversation (https://theconversation.com/can-surgical-masks-protect-you-from-getting-the-flu-125023) the author determined that there was dubious benefit from surgical masks. And in a study comparing surgical masks and the 'superior' N95 found that…

                     …surgical masks were as effective as N95 respirators at preventing the flu, which is to say, not all that effective because, of the 446 nurses who took part in this study, nearly one in four (24%) in the surgical mask group still got the flu as did 23% of those who wore the N95 respirator.

                     The author, a medical microbiologist (who ought to have a clue or two) points out that …

                     … given that many people describe the flu as like being hit by a truck, it is unlikely that people will be strolling around town with a mask on when they’re at their most infectious – three to four days after symptoms begin. They’ll be tucked up in bed, sweating and aching.

                     Perhaps one day we can safely ask the question if it was wise to mass 'vaccinate' with a non-sterilising product that fails to prevent infection but allows the infected to free-range in the community.
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     20 July 2022 at 1:52 pm

                     Rosemary, you seem to be highlighting that vaccinating people has resulted in many of them getting less ill from covid. Was that intentional?

                     Anyway how is your dossier on why, when and how the protest group rejected the leadership of the Tamiti aligned FARC group, coming along? Were all looking forward to the insights gleaned herein.
                   • Rosemary McDonald …

                     20 July 2022 at 3:16 pm

                     @ Nic the etc etc…

                     Yes. Do I have to copy and paste the quote from the medical biologist? No ? Good. I guess you haven't quite joined the dots on why a non- sterilising 'vaccine' might not be such a good idea?

                     Sure, the Pfizer product might prevent some, most perhaps, of the recipients from becoming so symptomatic that they are too ill to function normally. But this does not prevent them from being infectious.

                     Nature intends that the infectious are usually sick and therefore not out and about spreading the lurgie. I suppose this limits the spread, and in an ideal world allows a measure of herd immunity to build up in the community.

                     Old school vaccines were usually designed to prevent infection. And transmission. So properly immunised, the recipient was not going to catch the target disease or infect others.

                     The Pfizer product clearly does not prevent infection or transmission, and for Delta at least, the positive testing fully 'vaccinated' had a similar viral load as the positive testing unvaccinated. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w

                     Since the Omicron variants are better at getting around any protection from infection afforded by the Pfizer product it is not untoward to hypothesize that the situation will be at least the same.

                     In terms of protecting oneself from serious illness, hospitalisation and death then the fully 'vaccinated' and very recently boosted should be ok. I hope.

                     In terms of' vaccination imitating nature and providing community wide protection against disease transmission' then these mRNA products are a disaster. They are allowing, no, encouraging infected people to go about their busy social lives spreading joy and Te Virus wherever they go. More transmission…more mutations?

                     And as the author states…masks, even N95s, are not that effective.

                     And I'm not sure what you are on about re FRAC and his Wholiness. I mentioned a facebook thread that popped up in the early days of the Freedom Village. Like, weeks ago.

                     The general consensus was…as far as I read…that this was not the personality that was wanted to emerge as a leader/spokesman. For all the reasons that many on TS would suppose. Believe or not…the vast majority of the Freedom Villagers were not aligned closely with FRAC. It might have seemed like that to outsiders because, well, His Wholiness has set a standard of loud and in- your -face proselytising. Association, especially unsought, does not equate to collaboration or affiliation.

                     The '10 people at a table with one Nazi makes a table of 11 Nazis' does not apply here. Whether you like it or not. And it matters not, now.

                     Such a pity that no one from this Government was brave enough to go and speak with the largely moderate majority of those assembled. Perhaps with the groups supporting those seriously adversely affected by the Pfizer product?
                   • weka []

                     20 July 2022 at 5:44 pm

                     Link for the above diagram. I put it in the comment as well, but making sure you can see it. It’s from 2020. I’ve seen better ones more recently that give a more detailed explanation. Principle is the same, it’s about reducing the amount of virus people are exposed to, it’s not an on/off switch.

                     https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abc6197
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     20 July 2022 at 5:11 pm

                     Thanks for the more detailed explanation, though this is already what I thought you were saying. I just didn't think it was interesting to explore that and merely asked to understand that you are saying the vaccine has had observable positive health benefits across the community (e.g as you have observed vaccinated people are getting less sick from Covid). I also agree a sterilizing vaccine would have been much better as would a sterilizing vaccine against all variants, even those unknown or even un-evolved at the time of the vaccine development.

                     As far as your claims go, if were excluding vaccination from responses and simply going with what happens naturally with the course of an infection, then its absolutely clear the outcomes are going to deteriorate. We know this from the course of the pandemic before vaccination was available when the death toll was much higher, even with less infectious variants (maybe marginally deadlier until Omicron). So you can make the argument that people are going to stay home when showing more symptoms and the pandemic will naturally sort itself out, but that's clearly not how the world actually works (even with lock-downs).

                     Its also a bit simplistic to either categorize vaccines into sterilizing or not. The actual results are that sterilizing vaccines are (and this depends on the infection and natural immune response as much as the biotech) better at preventing reproduction of an infection. The result is that people show fewer symptoms, become less sick and transmit the infection less frequently with this improved immunity. So the very lowering of symptomatic infection your observing is related to sterilizing immunity. Even though the vaccinations available don't reach a level we would characterize as population sterilizing immunity they are observed to be improvements towards that direction. Its in fact possible if the virus was still at Alpha variant we would call it sterilizing immunity because that disappeared quickly once vaccines had been widely taken up.

                     Further, just a note on viral load between vaccinated and un-vaccinated, because this is also related to the asymptomatic effects your observing. Showing the viral load is similar for peak infection just shows that the nature of transmission is not different between vaccinated and un-vaccinated. In other words if you have a person with a similar viral load cross your path then the likelihood that they infected you in crossing paths will be similar. This doesn't say anything really about how vaccination effects transmission. But people who are asymptomatic will typically be carrying a lower viral load than a counterfactual version of themselves who are going around hacking and coughing through it. This is one of the ways that the vaccination program has improved outcomes across the community (lowering transmission) and clearly you have observed that is occurring well enough. Yes, the occurrence of asymptomatic transmission (of covid and known before vaccination was ever available) does complicate the case slightly, but asymptomatic people are less infectious than highly symptomatic people.

                     This topic is expanded here, linking to the study you already linked and incorporating it. (I expect you've probably read this already).

                     https://theconversation.com/no-vaccinated-people-are-not-just-as-infectious-as-unvaccinated-people-if-they-get-covid-171302

                     As to the FARC people. Your welcome to call them Nazis if you want. I'm more interested of the people in the protest who wanted FARC out. These are also the people who the media concludes are far right (or Nazis) in saying the protest contained extreme elements. It just seems obvious that (for all his bluster) that FARC group did lead several prior protests which were not even close to setting fire to Trevors favourite slide, so I'm somewhat interested in the decision to go that way, who made it any why they said they made it.

                     A list of anti-lockdown protests, many involving FARC.

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_anti-lockdown_protests_in_New_Zealand

                     I'm also going to suggest that David Seymour did meet with as many people from the protest as were harmed by the vaccine, out the back of a pub. Unfortunately anybody harmed could clearly only send their nieces nephews sisters aunts cousin along in person so everybody who was turned into a newt by the Pfizer product had some how turned back again by February. Anyway, at least one family appears to have gotten a roast lamb dinner out of Pfizer as a result, so there's always that.
                   • Drowsy M. Kram …

                     20 July 2022 at 5:24 pm

                     Great diagram weka – clear and simple.

                     As to "why people are arguing against" the utility of masks, for many 'mask-hesitant' that's simple too (imho) – no-one tells me what to do!

                     Grattan on Friday: Albanese needs to step up (and mask up) to help create a new mindset to meet the COVID crisis [15 July 2022]

                     Some people dislike masks because of their inconvenience. One gets that.

                     But, more peculiarly, for the political right masks have become a culture war rather than a matter of effectiveness. Stephen Reicher, professor of psychology at the University of St Andrews, writing in the Guardian, argues that some who hold a certain world view see masks as “a potent symbol of control: they are muzzles”. What these people reject “is less the mask and more the political and scientific establishment that proposes it”.
                   • weka []

                     20 July 2022 at 5:50 pm

                     maybe. I was thinking more of the argument that it’s all or nothing. So a good fitting mask is useful, but otherwise masks aren’t. Not essentially an anti-mask position, and it simply isn’t true.
                 • RedLogix …

                   20 July 2022 at 2:35 pm

                   If your glasses fog, then your mask is not working. Most of your respiration is passing through that gap which is the path of least resistance.

                   I really don't know what else to say. When I am spray paint I can tell instantly if I have dislodged the respirator because I can smell the solvent. But the virus gives no such warning.
                   • Incognito …

                     20 July 2022 at 3:22 pm

                     When your mask is dislodged, is the smell as bad as having no mask at all?
                   • RedLogix []

                     20 July 2022 at 3:35 pm

                     A spray painting respirator has a flexible seal that fits much, much better than any paper mask I have worn.

                     To be fair I have never taken the mask right off and gotten a lungfull so I cannot compare. But even the smallest leak is instantly obvious.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               20 July 2022 at 12:10 pm

               Hiya Molly. Way back when it was clear that it was possible to be infected with Te Virus via the eyes.

               2019-nCoV transmission through the ocular surface must not be ignored

               Published:February 06, 2020

               https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30313-5/fulltext

               Recent research, peer reviewed and published, indicates that mask mandates might actually increase the CFR…due to what the humble researcher calls the Foegen Effect.

               https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35363218/

               Essentially, one can rebreathe the virus particles nature intends are breathed away…like any other effluent. This can make certain folks sicker.

               None of this really adds to anyone's sense of security, I get that, but mandated mass mask wearing will most likely do more harm than good.

               If one is sick…coughing, snotting, sneezing and one cannot stay home until it passes then yes…wear a mask for the very short time one needs to be out. And as RL says…it should be a good fitting mask. This should be best practice.

               And because not everyone will do this…if a person feels they are at risk from serious illness from an infection then they should wear an appropriately fitting mask when they have to go out in to crowded places.

               We need to let the young and healthy get on with their lives and build some proper immunity against this thing or there's likely real trouble up ahead.
               • Molly …

                 20 July 2022 at 12:37 pm

                 As always, I think there's a balancing act.

                 My partners employer provides enough masks for employees to have frequent changes.

                 Transmission of Covid between team members has not occurred, although a few have had multiple infections from other sources. They run quite lean on staffing, and multiple absences on the same team are hard to cover.

                 Whether it's the nature of the working environment or the preventative measures they've employed is impossible to determine.

                 I do think there's a benefit from continuing at the moment, it's become habitual and doesn't impede delay work practices because of that.
                 • Rosemary McDonald …

                   20 July 2022 at 1:06 pm

                   Whether it's the nature of the working environment or the preventative measures they've employed is impossible to determine.

                   They've looked into just that… https://theconversation.com/face-masks-cut-disease-spread-in-the-lab-but-have-less-impact-in-the-community-we-need-to-know-why-147912

                   The most comprehensive between-country study of masks for COVID-19 infection is a comparison of policy changes, such as social distancing, travel restrictions, and mask wearing, across 41 countries. It found introducing a mask-wearing policy had little impact, but mask policies were mostly introduced after social distancing and other measures were already in place.

                   Until we have the needed research, we should be wary about relying on masks as the mainstay for preventing community transmission. And if we want people to wear masks regularly, we might do better to target higher-risk circumstances for shorter periods. These are generally places described by “the three Cs”: crowded places, close-contact settings, and confined and enclosed spaces. These would include some workplaces and on public transport.

                   We are likely to be better off if we get high usage of fresh masks in the most risky settings, rather than moderate usage everywhere.

                   As with the near total reliance on the Pfizer product to save us all, (and that's not working out too well) my thinking is that we should see mask wearing as just one of many tools in the toolbox. All the other methods to mitigate transmission and serious illness should be universally deployed…such as avoiding crowded, shouty places, eating well, exercise in the open air (maskless) and taking the good old fashioned tried and true vitamins for immune support.
         • Robert Guyton 8.2.1.1.2

           20 July 2022 at 1:37 pm

           "

           However, National's deputy leader leapt to the prime minister's defence on Breakfast on Wednesday.

           "No, look, she just took off the mask for the photo and can we give her a break for that?" Willis asked.

           "Who among us hasn't taken their mask off for a photo? I'm sure that just like me and all the others in the photo she put the mask on to walk around Parliament.

           "I think we all need to be a bit more relaxed about that."

           A spokesperson for the prime minister told Newshub Ardern had been wearing a mask for the rest of the day, but took it off briefly for the group photo at the photographer's request.

           In March, National Party leader Christopher Luxon admitted he shouldn't have been hugging and shaking hands with people at his State of the National speech."

           I guess that's because it was such a crap speech.

           ​​​​
       • Sacha 8.2.1.2

         20 July 2022 at 11:34 am

         When a leader tells the public to wear a mask, it is always going to be a story when they do not – much like David Clark going for a bike ride during lockdown.

         An ex-leader like Helen Clark calling her out for it is also a low-hanging story.

         It will pass.
         • Sacha 8.2.1.2.1

           20 July 2022 at 11:40 am

           Though an easy one for an opposition Deputy to stand out on: https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/07/20/give-her-a-break-willis-defends-pms-maskless-group-photo/
         • Anne 8.2.1.2.2

           20 July 2022 at 11:47 am

           Helen Clark was dismissive of the lack of masks in the photo generally. I don't think she singled out the PM. It appears many of the youth have been moving around the precinct mask-less.
         • Jimmy 8.2.1.2.3

           20 July 2022 at 12:57 pm

           Yes I noticed that hard right winger Helen Clark wasn't too impressed.

           "Former Prime Minister Helen Clark said it was shocking to see all the unmasked people.

           "Indeed shocking to see the unmasked youth parliament. What on Earth are they thinking. NZ is in the middle of a pandemic surge," she tweeted."

           https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/07/covid-19-david-seymour-other-politicians-chastise-jacinda-ardern-after-she-s-pictured-maskless-among-large-crowd.html

           Personally I don't think its that big a deal as when Jacinda was overseas no one seemed to be wearing masks.
   • newsense 8.3

     20 July 2022 at 12:47 pm

     Don’t forget RNZ too!
     And followed up today with the honourable and relevant King Dickhead Prebble calling 3 Waters a coup.

     Masks off for a second is risky, but it’s all about grades of risk. Is it outside? Or in a well ventilated space? Is it for more than 15 minutes?
     It slightly increases the risk.

     I guess it shows that the right aren’t quite as confident in their leader so they need to run dirty politics too?

     God what a load of hooey there is in this issue’s thread.
9. Stuart Munro 9

   19 July 2022 at 8:48 pm

   The New Zealand Russian community are publishing an online paper now, and this issue includes their responses to the war in Ukraine.

   inhabitedisland1.pdf (russianforkids.co.nz)
10. In Vino 10

    19 July 2022 at 9:19 pm

    Well, not much one-sided propaganda in there, is there?
    • Stuart Munro 10.1

      20 July 2022 at 5:24 pm

      No – the difference being that the authors actually know what they're talking about – it's fact based, rather than based on the political convenience of, say, a genocidal kleptocrat.
      • RedLogix 10.1.1

        20 July 2022 at 6:41 pm

        That newsletter was a good find Stuart.

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