Daily review 24/06/2020

71 comments on “Daily review 24/06/2020 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   24 June 2020 at 6:10 pm

   Next Colmar Brunton poll: tomorrow night. Just heard it on One News.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1

     24 June 2020 at 6:39 pm

     Thanks for that news; handy graphical summary of NZ political poll results here.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2020_New_Zealand_general_election

     Not as sophisticated as Matthew Whitehead's Pollwatch posts, but still worth a look.
     • McFlock 1.1.1

       24 June 2020 at 8:51 pm

       the nice thing about the wikipedia posts is that it's easy to go back to the same page for the 2017 election (and previous), and get a sense of the trends and change points from a wider perspective.

       It's still just navel-gazing at the moment, but I doubt Todd is sleeping well. Probably eponymously mulling over September's approach into the morning.

       Or maybe he's not, and that's why he's so crap.

       It does seem that Winston is positioning NZ1 as a coalition lifeline for the tories this time, though. I think they're going well beyond just making themselves distinct from Labgrn.
   • ianmac 1.2

     24 June 2020 at 6:40 pm

     Yes Dennis. And I bet there will be a drop in support for the Government and "expert" commentators will revel in the 2 or 5 or 20+% drop. The Opposition will claim a big win after destroying public confidence, while some of us will despise their approach.
   • observer 1.3

     24 June 2020 at 6:45 pm

     They had Lab 59 Nat 29 last time, so the closing of the gap is certain. Labour's numbers were unsustainable. I'd guess around Lab 51 Nat 35 this time. ACT might gain from Nats.

     NZF were only on 3, and they've really gone for headlines since then. Maybe back above 5. Greens will do well to be 5+.

     It would be funny if NZF get a bump and Muller has to do the rule in/out dance yet again.
   • Cinny 1.4

     24 June 2020 at 6:54 pm

     Thanks Dennis 🙂 That's going to be interesting.
2. observer 2

   24 June 2020 at 7:16 pm

   Credit where it's due: this is a really good, concise summary of NZ's current Covid-19 reailty. from the Herald/NZME.

   Makes a welcome change from hysterical headlines.
   • ScottGN 2.1

     24 June 2020 at 7:24 pm

     No surprise that’s Jamie Morton. He’s been one of the few voices of reason at the Herald since the crisis started.
     The point of the article is really good too. You can test all you like but the best way to prevent spread into the community is just to impose the bloody quarantine properly and for the 14 days.
   • Stunned mullet 2.2

     24 June 2020 at 7:37 pm

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/06/health-minister-david-clark-brutally-throws-dr-ashley-bloomfield-under-the-bus-while-standing-right-next-to-him.html

     'In the week after the new testing rules were brought in, 54 people were allowed to leave early on compassionate grounds. But almost all – 50 people – left without being tested.

     There were 2159 released generally from quarantine and at least 449 were allowed out without a test – and counting.'
     • Sacha 2.2.1

       24 June 2020 at 7:44 pm

       Gee, which of those two would most New Zealanders want gone?
       • observer 2.2.1.1

         24 June 2020 at 7:54 pm

         One of Muller's many tactical mistakes is that for short-term gain (probably seen in the poll tomorrow) he is now lumping in the DG of Health with the Minister.

         National will either have to say how the system would work better under the same boss, or say they want him removed, and explain how.
     • observer 2.2.2

       24 June 2020 at 7:49 pm

       You probably should have read the link in my comment first.
     • Ad 2.2.3

       24 June 2020 at 7:51 pm

       Easy bet that most New Zealanders would prefer to have Dr Bloomfield as Minister of Health than would have Mr Clark remain there.
       • Sacha 2.2.3.1

         24 June 2020 at 9:16 pm

         Doubt he would want the job; just to work with a politician who has cabinet’s respect.
   • ianmac 2.3

     24 June 2020 at 8:48 pm

     Thanks observer. Jamie Morton is showing healthy signs of keeping information in perspective and applying good science. He based his column on a group of experts, though he didn't seem to use Todd Muller as an informed resource.
     (Experts:Te Punaha Matatini investigators, Professor Michael Plank and Dr Alex James of the University of Canterbury, Professor Shaun Hendy and Nic Steyn at University of Auckland, and Dr Rachelle Binny and Dr Audrey Lustig at Manaaki Whenua-Landcare Research.)
3. JohnSelway 3

   24 June 2020 at 7:53 pm

   I’m one of the people that were let out of 2 week hotel isolation without being tested. They know how to contact me and where I am living but as of yet there has been no contact from any government agency. Not a call or an email – nothing. Tomorrow I’m going to make myself known to the agencies responsible but I’m still shocked I haven’t received as much as a text message.
   • James 3.1

     24 June 2020 at 8:14 pm

     John – amazing and disgusting at the same time.
     • anker 3.1.1

       24 June 2020 at 8:19 pm

       Actually James the test isn't the crucial thing. If John was well isolated for 14 days and had no symptoms, then risk very low. The tests aren't 100%…..Its the social isolation that counts. That's why our lockdown worked.

       I see you are back now after there has been what the PM termed an "unacceptable failure"….So here to stir.
       • James 3.1.1.1

         24 June 2020 at 8:56 pm

         And of the couple of thousand people isolated and possibly not tested – how many were isolated well?

         mixing in the exercise room with new arrivals, children’s birthday parties etc – no reason some could have been infected by new arrivals. Of course we don’t know because the government won’t.

         yeah sorry to be back when this circus of a government make a muck up that could cost the country tens of billions.
         • McFlock 3.1.1.1.1

           24 June 2020 at 9:55 pm

           And people might get sick. You forgot to be outraged by that, too. But when I lose money, I generally find it down the couch. NZ will get its money back, don't worry yourself too much on that account.

           As for your generalised, panic, if there's community spread in a couple of week, I'll be grumpy at govt. Until then [brushes off tory phrasebook] "I'm pretty relaxed. It's a dinnamik envronment".
     • JohnSelway 3.1.2

       24 June 2020 at 8:22 pm

       At the hotel they had an instruction that you MUST visit the nurses floor (Level 6 of the hotel) on the third day. But instead of me going down to be tested they come to my room, asked if I had symptoms and then left again. Also as a smoker I could only smoke, between the hours of 7am – 10pm in a small glass cubicle with max 3 other people. To get there I had to take the elevator which was strictly one bubble – you could only get in the elevator if you were by yourself or with those you were quarantined with but once you got to the smoking area you were mingling with other in a 1 metre by 5 metre cubicle. So can’t get in the elevator with anyone else but CAN smoke with them in a similar space.
       • I Feel Love 3.1.2.1

         24 June 2020 at 8:56 pm

         Go find a testing station and get tested if you're so concerned. Or you need the state to help?
         • JohnSelway 3.1.2.1.1

           24 June 2020 at 9:10 pm

           Oh I plan to go get tested. Tomorrow I’m calling the authorities to let them know of my situation.

           I have no reason to suspect I have contracted it though.
           • I Feel Love 3.1.2.1.1.1

             24 June 2020 at 9:13 pm

             Good on you.
       • McFlock 3.1.2.2

         24 June 2020 at 9:59 pm

         I mean, cohort control is part of running a quarantine/iso facility. So what sort of spread was there in people in the smokers room at any one time – were you dog-end to dog-end with fresh arrivals when you were on day 12?
         • JohnSelway 3.1.2.2.1

           24 June 2020 at 11:28 pm

           Yes there were always new people in different stages of isolation mingling with everyone else. There was an outside exercise yard but you weren't allowed to smoke there
           • weka 3.1.2.2.1.1

             24 June 2020 at 11:39 pm

             "Yes there were always new people in different stages of isolation mingling with everyone else."

             In the smoker's cubicle? That's the first thing I've seen that's alarmed me. Like many I think the risk of community transmission from not testing a full 14 days is low. But having new arrivals in close contact with people about to leave is daft.
             • McFlock …

               25 June 2020 at 3:08 pm

               yup
               • weka …

                 25 June 2020 at 4:57 pm

                 haven't followed closely but the whole thing does make me wonder what's been happening with the contracting with the hotels and then supervising to make sure it's being done properly. Has this been covered in the MSM?

                 eg in this case, would the MoH have inspected the smoking room and set the rules for use?
                 • McFlock …

                   25 June 2020 at 5:19 pm

                   Assuming everything as described is correct and there are no other considerations that were made outside the knowledge of returnees, on the face of it it looks like the MoH staff MAY (massive speculation here) have considered things like where people are roomed, how they are checked in and transported, their scheduled access for medical supervision, their use of lifts for exercise/access to communal areas and med rooms, how they are fed, and so on.And the hotel operators do the bulk of the daily work, like they would normally do – schedule cleaning, check people in and out, lifts and halls cleaned, etc.

                   My suspicion is that the MoH is not culturally in the habit of including smokers in their consideration. So the communal areas like lifts, pools, and gyms might have been specifically mentioned for management (maybe most other hotels had balconies on each room that smokers used on the sly), but the smoking area might not. And without specific consideration, the hotel folk just ignored it. And the smokers did whatever they wanted.

                   Or they might just have done the math of smoker numbers and size of the area, and figured it was fine. Or there was mingling allowed for people with negative tests or people most of the way through without symptom. Or the story has a wrong end or two that means there was no actual problem.

                   But if it's true, it's a stupid oversight that needs to be corrected as soon as possible.
     • Muttonbird 3.1.3

       24 June 2020 at 8:57 pm

       Pretty sure 'disgusting' isn't the right word for this.
   • ianmac 3.2

     24 June 2020 at 8:51 pm

     John are you disappointed that you are not infected or are you thrilled that you were kept safe?
   • Muttonbird 3.3

     24 June 2020 at 8:55 pm

     If you completed 14 day isolation do you think it is necessary to be tested? Appears as if the MoH placed importance on the isolation rather than the testing. This would have been fine had the National Party not insisted on compassionate exemptions which they were using to beat the government with for political purposes.

     In short, when National gets involved, everything turns to crap.
     • James 3.3.1

       24 June 2020 at 8:58 pm

       If you are jammed in a small room with other people – it’s not isolation.

       and blaming national for this is beyond pathetic.
       • ianmac 3.3.1.1

         24 June 2020 at 9:02 pm

         James work out the space if:

         In a small glass cubicle with max 3 other people. …once you got to the smoking area you were mingling with other in a 1 metre by 5 metre cubicle.

         3 square metres for up to 3 people? Really James and John!
         • Muttonbird 3.3.1.1.1

           24 June 2020 at 9:13 pm

           Could just quit smoking I guess. The team of 5 million were quite thorough disciplined. We plated by the rules of Level 4 lockdown. Shame some returnees have ruined it for everyone else.
           • JohnSelway 3.3.1.1.1.1

             24 June 2020 at 9:16 pm

             I did play by the rules. I did everything I was told to do
             • Muttonbird …

               24 June 2020 at 9:24 pm

               I'm sure you did. I was referring to the Covid-Karens.
       • Muttonbird 3.3.1.2

         24 June 2020 at 9:17 pm

         Well, it has turned to shit since they've been pushing for relaxations. Cleary this is what happens with relaxations.

         It can't be coincidence.
         • JohnSelway 3.3.1.2.1

           24 June 2020 at 9:26 pm

           Wait – are you blaming National for Labour’s decision to relax the levels?

           If so that’s a bit weird. If not – I’m sorry for misunderstanding
           • Muttonbird 3.3.1.2.1.1

             24 June 2020 at 9:36 pm

             The way I see it, National were searching hard for sticks with which to beat the government. One of them was the compassionate exemptions for funerals. They even started a petition about it, authorised by Paula Bennett. This was all Bridges policy.

             For whatever reason the government decided to relax the rules, presumably to avoid National gaining traction with this risky policy.

             Rather than 'blaming' National, it does illustrate how very very poor the pandemic response would be if National were in charge. There would be exemptions all over the place for anyone who tweeted their needs to Chris Bishop!
             • JohnSelway …

               24 June 2020 at 9:49 pm

               Dude, come on. Really?

               Labour is the government and they have to take responsibility. National are the opposition. You’re basically saying Labour take their marching orders from National. You think Ardern is that weak?

               You know what’s worse than Labour screwing this up? Labour screwing it up because they were scared of National. Because that is what you’re saying.
               • Muttonbird …

                 24 June 2020 at 9:52 pm

                 I find it interesting the very policy which was relaxed, and which led to the Covid-Karens being able to lie their way out of quarantine, was National Party policy.

                 Hell, Chris Bishop even helped them escape.
                 • JohnSelway …

                   24 June 2020 at 9:54 pm

                   So you’re saying Labour isn’t at fault because they were following National policy?
                   • Muttonbird …

                     24 June 2020 at 10:05 pm

                     I guess I'm saying the government is at fault for following National policy.

                     Let's hope New Zealand never does so again.
                   • JohnSelway …

                     24 June 2020 at 10:13 pm

                     National wears none of the blame. The government shoulders it all. They made the decisions. What you imply is this government is weak and are so venal they follow opposition policy.

                     What you’re saying is labour are so craven for victory they’ll follow the policies of the opposition party.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     24 June 2020 at 10:18 pm

                     No, I'm saying National's pandemic policy is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. We know that now.
                   • JohnSelway …

                     24 June 2020 at 10:21 pm

                     That’s great. But given I was talking about current policies the measures currently in place by the government of today, and not about what the opposition says, I fail to see the relevance of your commentary.

                     It has basically come down to:
                     John says “the current isolation situation is a bit of a messed per my experience with it”
                     Muttonbird says “yeah but fuck National”
           • Adrian 3.3.1.2.1.2

             25 June 2020 at 12:00 am

             You knew you were going to be isolated, if you didn’t like the idea why didn’t you just stay where the fuck you were. I am getting so fucking annoyed at you whinging ungrateful arseholes who with a lottery winning passport to the best lifeboat in the world carry on like the self-entitled shits you are. We were all here and we made the sacrifices to make this the world leading refuge it is. So shut the fuck up, the rest of us have had a gutsful of you.
             • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …

               25 June 2020 at 5:38 am

               Hear hear!
     • I Feel Love 3.3.2

       24 June 2020 at 9:01 pm

       I guess we will get community transmission in the next few weeks then if this is the case.
4. anker 4

   24 June 2020 at 8:16 pm

   Hi John, so you were isolated for two weeks. May I ask where you came from and when?

   Also was social distancing well maintained in your facility
   • aj 4.1

     24 June 2020 at 8:28 pm

     What date were you 'let out'. I cannot quite see the point in testing anyone who left isolation 2 weeks ago, for example.
     • JohnSelway 4.1.1

       24 June 2020 at 9:13 pm

       Well, the government has said they want to test everyone who left managed isolation from June 9th and beyond. I left June 10th so am part of that group.

       Social distancing was patchy. We all sat together on the plane but then socially distanced on the ground. At the hotel I was to to social distance on the elevator but there was mingling at reception and in the smoking and exercise area. It wasn’t a comprehensive rule. It was completely muddled. You can only go in the elevator one at a time but can mingle out the front in the exercise area. It was a bit of a disaster
       • aj 4.1.1.1

         24 June 2020 at 10:07 pm

         At the hotel I was to to social distance on the elevator but there was mingling at reception and in the smoking and exercise area. It wasn’t a comprehensive rule. It was completely muddled …. it was a bit of a disaster

         It is individual responsibility to keep socially distant as much as possible. That is a comprehensive rule, it is quite simple to understand, and that individuals should follow as much as possible. To imply otherwise, and refer to it as completely muddled, infers that people were not responsible for failing to do their best at social distancing.

         The shopping members of our team of 5 million kiwis tried very hard to achieve good social distancing when shopping for food (the most dangerous thing to do) during the lockdown. It would have been no more 'muddled' than at supermarkets, but everyone I saw, and I went three times, were acting as if they carried Covid, or they were the only person in the place without it.
         • Muttonbird 4.1.1.1.1

           24 June 2020 at 10:12 pm

           I think new arrivals just don't get it. What we've been able to do. They have come from places where the response has been as best slack and muddled, and at worst disastrous for tens or hundreds of thousands.

           They then seek to import that slack and muddled response by not doing what they are told.
         • aj 4.1.1.1.2

           24 June 2020 at 10:20 pm

           And just to make myself clear, I think if areas look a little crowded then people should not add to those crowds. It's necessary to make sacrifices when social distancing, and that may mean not socialising at all if you, and others, cannot met the distance guidelines. Many people I know didn't go into supermarkets if they arrived and there were a lot of people.
   • JohnSelway 4.2

     24 June 2020 at 9:11 pm

     I came from Melbourne
5. anker 5

   24 June 2020 at 8:27 pm

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342706

   This is good information. I suggest John and James read it.

   So John did you consider not smoking while you were in isolation?
   • JohnSelway 5.1

     24 June 2020 at 9:14 pm

     Hang on – why the attitude? I’m just telling you my experience. I’m not on board with James.
     • I Feel Love 5.1.1

       24 June 2020 at 9:26 pm

       Fair enough John, but gotta understand the suspicion, re Woodhouse etc & trolling, I appreciate your honesty and assume your good faith.
     • anker 5.1.2

       24 June 2020 at 9:34 pm

       Ok John,

       yeah I owe you an apology. I think it sounds o.k for the virus point of view what went on. You were isolated for 2 weeks and the smoking room is big enough, just. I remember the experts saying that you need to be around someone for 15 minutes for virus to be transmitted. That is of course unless you are symptomatic, coughing etc.

       I have just read an account of isolation in Queensland where they have controlled the virus very well. It sounds a really tough gig especially on your own. They don’t test there if there are no symptoms.I think people need to see that travelling should only be done if absolutely essential.

       I have a relative overseas whose lifespan has been cut short by cancer. Its very sad. She has great support over there thankfully, but I know it is a real possibility I won't see her again.
     • aom 5.1.3

       24 June 2020 at 11:15 pm

       JohnSelway, you have had more than your 15 minutes of fame. If it has been so bad, f**k off back to Melbourne. Despite the shockingly bad way you were treated, NZ doesn't have community transmission – unlike the place you escaped from. On the way out, feel free to drop some cash inn the donations bin to subsidise your hotel stay.
       • JohnSelway 5.1.3.1

         24 June 2020 at 11:23 pm

         I’m a NZ citizen you fucking halfwit – I was coming home after flying to Melbourne for work 2 weeks before everything was locked.
6. Koff 6

   24 June 2020 at 8:59 pm

   I spent two weeks in quarantine in Brisbane and wasn't tested before leaving the hotel. The quarantine was strict and as far as I know, still strict, but only those with symptoms are tested in Oz. I think up to Level 1 in NZ, people weren't tested before leaving in quarantine unless they were symptomatic because it was the 14 day stay that was intended to clear any virus, even from asymptomatics. The more rigorous testing system (day 3 and day 12) was brought in in NZ because there was far more danger of the very odd person leaving quarantine still infectious passing it on with no social distancing etc. Considering the challenges involved, I think that despite a few hiccoughs the government in NZ has responded quickly and closed as many possible gaps as possible. Is it foolproof? No,but a damn sight more foolproof than just about anywhere else in the western world!
   • I Feel Love 6.1

     24 June 2020 at 9:05 pm

     Yep, which is what Dr Souxie explained, oh, many times. But lets give the RWs plenty of rope, time will tell. Like I said above, nothing stopping any of us getting ourselves tested if we really want to.
   • ianmac 6.2

     24 June 2020 at 9:06 pm

     Yes Koff. ZNZ appears to be the only country with such firm isolation and the only one with such strong testing systems.

     Opposition works on the belief that no matter how strong our system is, they will create a fault as if to blame the Government.
7. observer 7

   24 June 2020 at 10:04 pm

   I don't think having a go at people in the isolation/quarantine is helpful. (I know I took the mickey out of the late breakfast story, but that was too ridiculous to pass up).

   This process is going to continue for months, and obviously it needs to be done right, but it also needs a bit of empathy on all sides. People returning need to be aware of the sacrifices made in NZ (from jobs to lives), and to appreciate why they're now able to return to one of the least restricted societies in the world. But those of us based in NZ shouldn't jump to conclusions about how/why people have been overseas, which could be anything from work, family, etc. It's not all a junket.

   I have less empathy for those who are hoping things go bad, for political gain. They can do one.
   • Muttonbird 7.1

     24 June 2020 at 10:09 pm

     Agree. There needs to be mandatory education for new arrivals about what we have achieved here, what advantages there are in an open NZ society once through quarantine, and most importantly what is expected from them under quarantine.
   • Anne 7.2

     24 June 2020 at 11:02 pm

     I have empathy for this case.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12342669

     And who caused this present round of hysteria? The National Party. They have muddied the waters to such an extent people can't see through the labyrinth of lies and disinformation and don't understand there is no community spread so they are as safe as they were a month ago. They certainly don't need to rush out all at once and clog up the roads so people can’t get to where they need to go.

     I hope they are done over big time this election for their unprincipled and dangerous behaviour.
   • Gabby 7.3

     24 June 2020 at 11:47 pm

     Though I'm not sure that 'hey, I didn't want to come back here' is a great way to garner sympathy.

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