Daily review 26/04/2022

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1. pat 1

   26 April 2022 at 6:14 pm

   The government is adapting core democratic principles to ensure better outcomes for Māori, the deputy prime minister says.

   "Grant Robertson said New Zealanders should be proud of new arrangements for Māori co-governance.

   He was responding to comments from Māori Development Minister Willie Jackson who told TVNZ's Q+A on Sunday that the nature of democracy has changed.

   "This is a democracy now where you take into account the needs of people, the diverse needs, the minority needs," Jackson said.

   "It's not the tyranny of the majority anymore, that's what co-management and co-governance is about. It's nothing to fear"

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/465902/co-governance-helping-deliver-better-results-for-maori-deputy-pm

   Consider how it would be received if we devalued the vote of women to that of less than half of male voters, or embedded a system that preferenced christian votes ahead of any other religion or atheism…or shock , horror allowed anyone who voted for National to be credited 2 votes as opposed to anyone who didnt.
   • weka 1.1

     26 April 2022 at 7:54 pm

     Consider how it would be received if we devalued the vote of women to that of less than half of male voters

     This isn't the right comparison though. It would be if we make women's vote carry more weight than men's, because women are still biased against in the patriarchal system. I'd argue we're more likely to address the climate crisis, and less likely to blow the planet up, if women's vote carried more weight.

     I haven't seen a good enough explanation of the Rotorua proposal, or the AG's response, to get a sense of how it would work. Lots of reaction based on alarm at the idea that the Crown could be in equitable relationship with Māori, and to my mind this is the crux of the issue. Do we want to honour the treaty and allow Māori their own culture and ways of doing things, or do we want to assimilate Māori into Pākehā dominated society?
     • weka 1.1.1

       26 April 2022 at 7:58 pm

       
       • weka 1.1.1.1

         26 April 2022 at 7:59 pm

         dude on left would be in the premier seating though.
     • weka 1.1.2

       26 April 2022 at 8:03 pm

       AG's response, haven't read it yet.

       https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/papers-presented/current-papers/document/PAP_122623/attorney-general-report-of-the-under-the-new-zealand
     • pat 1.1.3

       26 April 2022 at 8:05 pm

       It is exactly the right argument…democracy is simple, everyones vote is of the same worth…end of story.

       Anything else is not democracy.
       • Blazer 1.1.3.1

         26 April 2022 at 8:14 pm

         Maybe democracy is not so…simple.

         Ad-

         'Thankfully there are whole institutions devoted to evaluating kinds of democracy, and the elements that go into them, and don't decry against the world with foolish absolutes like you just did.'

         Home | Democracy
         • pat 1.1.3.1.1

           26 April 2022 at 8:26 pm

           You may wish to read your link
           • Blazer 1.1.3.1.1.1

             26 April 2022 at 8:39 pm

             I skimmed it…and still don't think it's…simple.
             • Blazer …

               26 April 2022 at 8:47 pm

               Here's another viewpoint from Redlogix…

               'Most people here recognise the US as something of an outlier in democratic norms. It is well understood that their democratic sausage has many ingredients and not all of them wholesome.'

               Again..hardly simply.

               Where do majority govts of eligible voters exist in western democracies?
               • pat …

                 26 April 2022 at 9:22 pm

                 Where do democracies explicitly apportion more weight to certain segments of their population over others?…..poor turnout is a bug, but it is a bug of choice.
                 • Blazer …

                   27 April 2022 at 8:21 am

                   Here's one segment…

                   '

                   currently, young New Zealanders at the age of 16, can, among other things:

                   • Hold a learner driver licence.
                   • Leave school.
                   • Leave home permanently without permission.
                   • Be paid at least the minimum wage.
                   • Consent in writing to having their name changed.
                   • Get a passport without parental consent.
                   • Have consenting sex (heterosexual or gay).
                   • Apply for a firearm licence.

                   Can't vote.
                   • pat …

                     27 April 2022 at 5:10 pm

                     Which I disagree with…but its not pertinent to the point of devaluing the votes of those who we have determined are eligible….its called a social contract.
       • weka 1.1.3.2

         26 April 2022 at 8:39 pm

         It's a gross misrepresentation because it deliberately removes the central point of the Rotorua Bill, which is to address the inequity built into the current system that gives advantage to Pākehā and disadvantages Māori.

         It is exactly the right argument…democracy is simple, everyones vote is of the same worth…end of story.

         Are you sure about that?

         The ratepayer roll allows people to vote in each council district, local board area and community board area the own property in.

         RNZ analysis of Auckland's ratepayer rolls from the 2016 local elections uncovered people who were enrolled as ratepayer voters in not just one, but two, three or four different local board areas.

         One man was enrolled in seven separate local board areas, in addition to the area he lived in. Although he could only vote for Auckland's mayor and councillors once, he was eligible to elect local board members in Howick, Upper Harbour, Devonport-Takapuna, Kaipatiki, Waitemata, Henderson-Massey, Manurewa, and Hibiscus and Bays local boards.

         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/392946/archaic-law-allows-multiple-property-owners-extra-voting-rights

         Some prisoners can't vote.

         Argue the principle and explain why, but it's not actually the reality that some people are asserting it is.
         • weka 1.1.3.2.1

           26 April 2022 at 8:41 pm

           I'm not saying the Rotorua Bill is the right way to approach this, I'm saying that the principle underlying it is sound. We should be actively making changes to stop Māori from being disadvantaged. And imo, cogovernance has the potential to bring many benefits to Māori and non-Māori.
         • pat 1.1.3.2.2

           26 April 2022 at 9:18 pm

           Then the solution is to only allow people to vote in the board area in which they live…two wrongs do not make a right.

           The moment you attach more value to one group, no matter the criteria you undermine the acceptance of any outcome….either we wish to be a democracy or we do not, if not as appears to be the case then at least do away with pretence.
           • weka 1.1.3.2.2.1

             26 April 2022 at 10:31 pm

             Do you support all prisoners having the right to vote?
             • pat …

               26 April 2022 at 10:45 pm

               only the innocent ones
             • Incognito …

               27 April 2022 at 12:06 am

               Yes, I do.
               • pat …

                 27 April 2022 at 12:36 am

                 You treat the question with far more gravitas than I think it deserves
                 • weka …

                   27 April 2022 at 9:07 am

                   didn't take much to break the opov principle though, did it.
                   • pat …

                     27 April 2022 at 5:11 pm

                     In your mind
                 • Incognito …

                   27 April 2022 at 9:36 pm

                   It wasn't a vow
               • weka …

                 27 April 2022 at 9:07 am

                 same. Some people apparently not, so it's not so much opov, but the people we approve of get a vote each.
             • RedLogix …

               27 April 2022 at 12:45 am

               Do you support my right to vote?

               Because as things stand I cannot vote in the Australian election despite living in that country almost a decade; nor could I vote in a New Zealand election because I have not visited that country for over three years.

               So if my right to vote is really this ephemeral – I struggle to see how criminals get more rights than I do.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 28 April 2022 at 2:24 am

                 I support your right to vote in NZ’s next GE. Imho you shouldn't have to pop across the ditch for a day or two some time in the next 18 months to retain that right – it's an equity issue.

                 Ideally RL, NZ prisoners and I would have the same NZ voting rights.
   • Incognito 1.2

     26 April 2022 at 9:58 pm

     I guess what you’re getting at is that if every conceivable minority receives or is elevated to co-governance we end up with one man, one vote.
     • pat 1.2.1

       26 April 2022 at 10:04 pm

       Very neatly summarised.
       • arkie 1.2.1.1

         26 April 2022 at 10:29 pm

         Good thing cogovernence is only arguably obligated by treaty between the indigenous, former majority population of this land and the Crown, which is the provider of this Representative Democracy, the particular branch of which has elections that are lucky to muster 50% of eligible voters I might add.
         • RedLogix 1.2.1.1.1

           26 April 2022 at 11:27 pm

           An even better thing that this former indigenous population was not in the slightest bit democratic either. None of this dreadful 'tyranny of the majority' for them eh!
           • arkie 1.2.1.1.1.1

             27 April 2022 at 8:23 am

             Hey Red, still indigenous.

             Traditional decision making processes are consensus based. Some would argue that is a more thorough and fair method.
             • RedLogix …

               27 April 2022 at 9:20 am

               In small village settings where less than a few dozen or so people hold all the effective decision making power and everyone is face to face – then consensus works well enough. But even then most of the rest of lower class people and slaves have little to no say at all.

               More noble savage puffery.
               • arkie …

                 27 April 2022 at 9:38 am

                 You don't know what you're talking about. Consensus decision-making is used to this day, from the level of hapu on upwards.

                 More cultural supremacy mythology.
     • weka 1.2.2

       26 April 2022 at 10:29 pm

       one person, one vote has nothing to do with elevating minorities or co-governance. It's an useful principle that in practice is a low form of democracy used to elect representatives who then make decisions whether we want them or not. It enables the tyranny of the majority and it's gives us things like poor Māori health stats and climate change.

       Māori are treaty partners with the Crown. Their current lower population numbers are a result of the damage done by colonisation. The treaty doesn't say that Māori can have chieftainship over their lands, villages and all their treasures but only in population proportion to non-Māori. If Māori had understood that they would be outvoted in perpetuity because the colonisation process would entrench advantage to non-Māori, do you think they would have signed? Is it fair?

       Looks to me like many people are comparing opov to not having opov, instead of looking at improved versions of democracy.

       I can't see how opov can sit along side the Treaty (or other forms of justice for Māori). I guess at some point it will even out a bit once there are more Polynesian people in NZ, than European descent. But a lot of damage will be done in the meantime and it's still not honouring the treaty.
       • pat 1.2.2.1

         26 April 2022 at 10:47 pm

         "It enables the tyranny of the majority and it's gives us things like poor Māori health stats and climate change."

         Ah, democracy…..the cause of all ills.

         Good grief.
         • weka 1.2.2.1.1

           27 April 2022 at 9:09 am

           more like paucity of imagination that leads to thinking democracy is only and always opov, majority rules.

           The majority want civ over climate action. You know this and have said as much many times. That's what they vote for under our opov/majority system.
       • Incognito 1.2.2.2

         27 April 2022 at 12:04 am

         If it is a general principle then where do you draw the line? When is a minority deserving (or worthy?) of co-governance and does it justify protection against the tyranny of the majority by virtue of co-governance, which, in a way and undeniably, skews the one-man-one-vote principle?

         OTOH, Māori are a special minority in Aotearoa-New Zealand, which suggests that relying on the above general principle for justification is not helpful, at least not without careful and precise elaboration.

         This Government seems to want to have it both ways, which presents an ethical problem or dilemma, in my view and I think in Pat’s view too.
         • RedLogix 1.2.2.2.1

           27 April 2022 at 12:29 am

           Very nicely put – but it seems the most obvious way to cure poor Maori health stats and climate change would be to just get rid of that pesky majority altogether.
         • pat 1.2.2.2.2

           27 April 2022 at 12:34 am

           My view is that you do not solve the problems of a society by reducing the input of any particular segment of that society, minority or not…..a society is the sum of its participants and their ability to function collectively depends upon the acceptance that the opportunity to elect our law makers is equal and unfettered….even (especially) if we dont personally like a particular result.

           The moment we abandon that ethos we accept that someone other than ourselves should direct our lives….someone who we cannot collectively remove/replace short of violence.
           • RedLogix 1.2.2.2.2.1

             27 April 2022 at 12:50 am

             
           • arkie 1.2.2.2.2.2

             27 April 2022 at 8:18 am

             My view is that you do not solve the problems of a society by reducing the input of any particular segment of that society

             This particular view has been shared by Māori, hence the attempted elevation of a segment of society (treaty partners no less), after 150 years of systemically reducing their input through colonisation etc.

             All this talk of democracy but not one mention of the profoundly undemocratic traditional employer/employee relations that most of us must spend the majority of our lives participating in. Bring on co-governence and democratise the workplace!
         • weka 1.2.2.2.3

           27 April 2022 at 9:21 am

           I don't think of Māori as a minority. The concept of minority rights is an understandable response to the tyranny of the majority (or the patriarchy), but the way we have it embedded is that it's a constant struggle for the 'minority' group to gain any kind of ground and maintain it. I would call it a Pākehā concept, or a patriarchal one. It’s presents itself as TINA, and it denies other ways of managing society.

           Instead, I see Māori as one of the two treaty partners that have the opportunity to be in an equitable relationship. Willie Jackson was at pains to point out that this isn't about elevating Māori above Pākehā, it's about bringing Māori and the Pākehā into a good relationship. I believe him, and it looks to me like lots of benefits for Pākehā too.

           In that sense I am less bothered about the vote proportionality. In a co-governance model we would have Māori and Tauiwi in joint partnership, and it doesn't diminish me that less Māori vote for the same power alotment that Tauiwi get. What it makes me think about is how terrible local body elections are, and how much councils get given mandates by people and then get to do ridiculous shit like build Opera houses instead of recycling centres or social housing. My voice isn't being heard there, and neither is the voice of many others.

           This opov is so devalued that most people don't even bother using it. Now we have a lot of people angry about Māori being enabled into a partnership model, people who have been largely silent about the problems with local body voting and council decision making.

           The Rotorua Bill may be an ethical dilemma, but it's also a doorway to participatory democracy or other forms of democracy that would serve us better.
2. I Feel Love 2

   26 April 2022 at 7:15 pm

   Ha! https://nypost.com/2022/04/25/russia-appears-to-confuse-the-sims-for-sim-cards-in-possible-staged-assassination-attempt/ bozos mistake "leave 3 sims" for Sims games & apparently leave a card with a name signed 'signature ineligible'.

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