Daily review 27/08/2020

101 comments on “Daily review 27/08/2020 ”

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1. PB 1

   27 August 2020 at 6:49 pm

   Re the Green School. State schools all over the country are getting told to tighten their belts property funding wise because of the affect of Covid spending which I guess includes on the Green School. Schools that are overcrowded, leaky etc could use some of that money.
2. Muttonbird 2

   27 August 2020 at 6:55 pm

   This is looking like another Metiria Turei moment. Why do they do this to themselves at critical moments? Not that it’s bad, it’s good, but they know they have to be above clean or the rabid right will go for the jugular.

   I hope they survive this election but really, there were many better ways and better times to release this funding, ie not in the middle of a pandemic. It looks like they are out of touch with what ordinary people are going through.

   What votes they gained from this will have been more than erased by votes they lost.
   • solkta 2.1

     27 August 2020 at 7:02 pm

     It is pandemic funding. The funding would not be there otherwise.
     • Muttonbird 2.1.1

       27 August 2020 at 7:05 pm

       Shovel ready projects, right? Well they and their partners might have distributed some of the rest of that funding to other schools at the same time and it might have not been an issue.
       • solkta 2.1.1.1

         27 August 2020 at 7:13 pm

         I don't think that is something that was within the control of the Greens. Was more like a choice of this or more roads.

         edit: it doesn’t sit easy with me but i can see why James went for this over the alternatives.
         • Herodotus 2.1.1.1.1

           27 August 2020 at 7:34 pm

           At least this time they were not going against their principles and having to swallow a rat for the good of the coalition.

           I don't think that is something that was within the control of the Greens – If you had viewed the 1:00 briefing the minister stated (Hopkins) "During today’s 1pm Covid-19 update, Hipkins addressed the funding, saying the Green Party “advocated quite strongly” for it. “It was one of their ‘wins’.." So it was ALL in the Greens control. . So is the minister misleading us or some supporters not wanting to believe the truth out there. I await the next reason for the Greens action. Unbelievable

           https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/27-08-2020/green-party-under-fire-for-11m-public-funding-of-private-green-school/

           https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/101208963/a-diet-of-dead-rats-would-make-the-greens-sicken-and-die
           • weka 2.1.1.1.1.1

             27 August 2020 at 7:50 pm

             "So it was ALL in the Greens control."

             As I understand it, the funding criteria were developed under Twyford and Jones. It's not like the Greens had the power to give the money to state schools. We don't yet know how much choice the Greens had with other projects. I think they've fucked up here, but I think many people are blaming them for the wrong thing.
             • Herodotus …

               27 August 2020 at 8:06 pm

               So do you think Hopkins was just distancing Labour from this decision by claiming this "“It was one of their ‘wins’" .

               Blaming them for the wrong thing Really , don't the Green MP's know what they stand for ? I know you know where to look but perhaps your MP's are not familiar.😉

               https://www.greens.org.nz/education_policy

               https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/119521613/green-school-new-zealand-has-official-opening-to-end-first-week-of-school

               https://www.greenschool.org/news-media/green-school-new-zealand-opens-in-taranaki/
               • weka …

                 27 August 2020 at 8:24 pm

                 I don't know what has happened, because no-one who knows what happened has bothered to explain it in public yet. We might get lucky tomorrow.

                 But what I can glean so far:

                 The fund was controlled by Labour and NZF.

                 Hipkins at first deflected the questions, by saying it was nothing to do with Education and was on the relevant other Ministers (he didn't specify who).

                 When questioned again more directly, he made the comment about the Greens' win. I have no idea if that was him being truthful or politicking.

                 And yep, blaming them for the wrong thing, all the people going off because the GP gave shit loads of money to a private school instead of state schools. Tell me how the GP could have given the money to state schools? I'm all ears.
                 • Herodotus …

                   27 August 2020 at 8:46 pm

                   Our local schools are leaky and have approval by the MOE, these schools are hammer ready but no action.

                   So "all the people going off because the GP gave shit loads of money to a private school instead of state schools" is Ok ?

                   I hope the nature of the school and what the school is promoting has not found fertile ground with The Greens. And I note this school has just this year opened.
                   • weka …

                     27 August 2020 at 8:56 pm

                     Tell me how the GP could have given the money to state schools? I'm all ears.
                   • Herodotus …

                     27 August 2020 at 9:16 pm

                     I already have, why doesn't our government review what is hammer ready regarding school buildings that are "leaky" or even that have been approved for expansion. There are plenty out there approved and with plans.

                     This quote could easily be from an Act member – Tells you everything really "The support we are providing will help Green School to meet growing demand from parents all over New Zealand, and the rest of the world, wanting to enrol their children…" I await the spin to support the indefensible.
               • mickysavage …

                 27 August 2020 at 8:35 pm

                 I am fine with it. We are at a stage where we have to create lots of jobs quickly. Why should NZ First get all the credit? We can sort out the philosophical arguments later but for now keeping 250 jobs going seems to me to be OK.
                 • weka …

                   27 August 2020 at 8:58 pm

                   do you know what the jobs are? The construction firm?
                   • mickysavage …

                     27 August 2020 at 9:08 pm

                     Only what I heard this morning. But we are in a strange time. Shovel ready projects can be in lots of areas.
             • Cinny …

               27 August 2020 at 9:27 pm

               Jones is responsible for the shovel ready fund. Least that's my understanding.
   • Sabine 2.2

     27 August 2020 at 7:25 pm

     Nah, Metiria did us a favor by admitting that she had to cheat in order to survive on the benefit. Not that anyone in the Labour Party or the Green Party gives a flying f uck about people on the benefit not making it, they don't. They need the poor people to get elected, and then they are of no more use. That was her only mistake, believing that the Greens as in Party Leadership actually gave a fuck. But for a very brief moment we actually discussed how people are supposed to live of 250 a week. Bless that women, may she always has the wind in her back, a shady tree to sit under and a clean river near by for water. What she did took courage.

     This blunder tho is dumb beyond believe and it just goes to show that both Labour and the Greens have their head so far up their behinds that they don't see how this would upset people. Everyone is losing money left, right n centre, people losing their jobs with nothing to replace them, people trying to live with no income, and these beige suits gift 10 million to a private school…..for the 'green focus', while all over the country public schools are not being appropriatly funded or falling apart.

     Tonedeaf , out of touch idiotic dumbfucks. And dumb, because they really thought that this will not upset people.

     As for this or more roads? We all use roads, but none of your kids will ever go to this school unless you have the petty cash to pay for it. Cause private school. So the right choice would have been roads. And besides the roads in NZ for the largest part are shitty enough to warrant a new coat of metal every now and then for the plebs.
3. Incognito 3

   27 August 2020 at 7:18 pm

   A total of 89% of all Auckland businesses are collecting the Government wage subsidy and over $13 billion has already been paid out across the country. This is money from the public purse (actually, it is all borrowed) going to businesses and private enterprises and they are not necessarily even green. This must stop immediately!
   • Draco T Bastard 3.1

     27 August 2020 at 7:26 pm

     https://twitter.com/DracoTBastard/status/1298230673782661120
     • Sabine 3.1.1

       27 August 2020 at 7:35 pm

       Do you think that they are entitled to government help during a time where the government told them to shut down and not work?

       Cause the pandemic is not why businesses needed help, it was the order from the government to shut down that forced them to accept help.

       Also, do you think anyone in this country that pays taxes to the government for the upkeep of the country is entitled to government help in the case of an earth quake, volcano eruption, tsunami, flooding, or pandemic, or is that just for people whom you can clearly identify as 'deserving'? And if that is the case, please clarify who is 'deserving' of the taxes we pay?
       • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1

         27 August 2020 at 7:53 pm

         Do you think that they are entitled to government help during a time where the government told them to shut down and not work?

         It is something that they needed to plan for and didn't. And do remember, SARS wasn't that long ago nor even the influenza epidemic of 1918.

         The capitalists don't get to say that they're so great at managing risks and go running to the government for help because they failed to manage the obvious risk.

         Cause the pandemic is not why businesses needed help, it was the order from the government to shut down that forced them to accept help.

         Now you're really getting precious.

         The government called the lock-down because of the pandemic. Business needed to manage their risks based around the fact that a lock-down would happen during a pandemic.

         clearly identify as 'deserving'?

         And now you're simply putting words in my mouth because I said something that you didn't like.

         HINT: In capitalist ideology it's about the business that can survive. If a business dies then that's just a part of the creative destruction that is capitalism.

         If the government simply provided a UBI then even the destruction of a business would not be an issue. People would still have enough to live on and no focussing upon deserving or not as is the case under the present Social Welfare which really isn't all that social.
         • Sabine 3.1.1.1.1

           27 August 2020 at 8:00 pm

           So you are arguing that Air New Zealand should not have been bailed out three times in three different governments over the last twenty years.

           Also CHCH should not have received a single penny from the governmetn, if they did not have it saved they can't afford it?

           Same with farmers?

           Nope, i never lived through a pandemic, sorry here dude, And i don't think anyone here really did. And no i don't need to close during a pandemic, that is the whole point, I and others could have chosen to stay open and take our risks, same as for our customers, you know a bit like in the US.

           Now we were told to stay at home – under police surveillance i might add – so as to prevent the spread from the pandemic, but that was on government orders. I bet you a dollar that even currently there would be quite a few people in the country that would have no issues opening the borders and fuck it all, let the dice drop where they fall, heads you die, tails i die. But we are not allowed to under government orders and potentially breaking the law. Thus the government has to hand back some of the taxes it extracts from us, again under the threat of fines, prison time etc if we don't comply.

           Ah, now you are back to the UBI. Lol. I am the one that wants to increase the unemployment benefits and social welfare benefits and retirement benefits to the level of full time wage subsidy. But that ain't gonna happen.

           As for the pandemic, it gets tiring to see this used as a bashing bat against people that literally just try to make a living in a country where the government has done an abysmal job of creating any jobs.
           • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.1.1

             27 August 2020 at 8:23 pm

             So you are arguing that Air New Zealand should not have been bailed out three times in three different governments over the last twenty years.

             AirNZ should never have been privatised and thus would never have needed bailing out.

             Also CHCH should not have received a single penny from the governmetn, if they did not have it saved they can't afford it?

             Christchurch had insurance. Of course, it wasn't enough but for some strange reason the insurers are still there.

             Nope, i never lived through a pandemic,

             And here's me thinking that you were alive in the 1990s.

             And no i don't need to close during a pandemic, that is the whole point, I and others could have chosen to stay open and take our risks, same as for our customers, you know a bit like in the US.

             And thus become an agent of mass manslaughter. Wonder how that would go down with your customers.

             Thus the government has to hand back some of the taxes it extracts from us

             No it doesn't.

             Ah, now you are back to the UBI.

             It does simplify things. One of the problems with complicated systems is that they cost more to maintain.

             As for the pandemic, it gets tiring to see this used as a bashing bat against people that literally just try to make a living in a country where the government has done an abysmal job of creating any jobs.

             The government used to create a lot of jobs and maintained 100% employment but you business folks complained about that and got the government to stop doing it.
       • Foreign waka 3.1.1.2

         27 August 2020 at 8:34 pm

         Sabine, companies ought to have a business continuity plan. A big part of that is an insurance cover. If they have skimmed on that to show profits to their shareholders, large corps would be having their HO overseas, than that's too bad.

         People do have a right to earn a living and have a right to survive. Our social structure that has been artificially build shows a great civilization but not necessary a fully developed human race. As for your question to who deserves to be paid from the taxes, you are asking the wrong question.

         The question has to be, why does any government think that the money paid by those who work is theirs to throw around?

         The taxpayer has agreed to pay a levy of their earnings to maintain what we call a civilization, infrastructure government, policing, health services and also an income to those who are sick, infirm, can not fend for themselves, the elderly and those who are unable to work due to having a baby, being made redundant at no fault of their own, circumstances out of the persons control.

         This has less to do with deserving but everything with fairness of distribution of limited funds. An UBI would be a good solution to cover all without having that overblown apparatus that is fed the the tax that should be going to other causes.
         • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.2.1

           28 August 2020 at 10:19 am

           The question has to be, why does any government think that the money paid by those who work is theirs to throw around?

           Does the store owner have the right to think that the money paid by those who work is theirs to throw around?

           Or should said store owner be asking permission from their customers on how to spend it?

           The government doesn't actually need the money from taxes as it can print it as needed. It does have restraints on what it can print due to the physical limitations of the real economy but as long as there is slack in the economy then any such printing isn't a problem.

           As the government doesn't need taxes to pay for anything then the purposes of taxes becomes necessary to understand. There are many:

           • To encourage certain behaviours
           • To discourage others
           • To help control inflation
           • To put a maximum income into effect
           • A consideration for payment of services rendered

           And there's probably more that needs to be considered so as to design a better tax regime.
     • Foreign waka 3.1.2

       27 August 2020 at 8:14 pm

       This is called privatizing profits and socializing losses. It would have been and still is to pay benefit to those who find themselves out of work. Or better still pay a UBI to every person over 16 years of age. It would have taken care of all the issues, admin costs certainly not as high as the subsidy model.

       The news show companies who have pocketed millions and laying now staff off under the guise of Covid. In other words, a politicized benefit for those who have most.
     • mpledger 3.1.3

       28 August 2020 at 9:14 am

       Spelling mistake or malapropism? Either I like it.
   • Sabine 3.2

     27 August 2020 at 7:31 pm

     Nope, this is money going to the people that would otherwise be not working, not having an income and thus be on the benefit.

     So yes, this was a good move to flatten the unemployment curve.

     Seriously this is about the weakest argument you could have made and i am frankly surprised you made it.

     Maybe you just forgot the snark tag?

     Btw, non of the businesses that received the wage subsidy got to keep it, we used it to pay for the Staff that we could not pay because we were shut down by the Government. Just in case you forgot about this Covid thing, that currently has all of Auckland shut down other then a few 'essential' businesses.
     • Incognito 3.2.1

       27 August 2020 at 9:10 pm

       Of course, it goes to people in jobs. Same with grants from the COVID-19 Response and Recovery Fund; it is all about jobs and stimulating the (local) economy. But not all jobs are equal, it seems. For example, a contractor helping to build social housing or a Decile 1 school is laudable but a private school ist verboten, almost on par with working in the oil industry. You see, before taxpayers’ money is doled out, it needs to pass a sniff test, a kind of ethical approval, and if it ain’t 100% pure then it should be culled immediately. Ideological purity needs to be preserved at all cost, even if it means ritual suicide and political death; better to die pure than live with a tiny blot. Meanwhile the party of mercenaries and smiling assassins can’t believe their luck that yet again the cult of progressives in NZ are about to commit their tri-annual mass political suicide again. I hope all knives have been sharpened because otherwise it could be a slow painful death too; all they need to do is push under 5% with a quick short stab. Oh, and especially for the dimwits here: \sarc.
       • Sabine 3.2.1.1

         27 August 2020 at 11:35 pm

         well the no mates party is being helped by the blunders of the government.

         I posted below an article about this, with a principal reading a letter to the PM.

         She asks why she got 73000 for 'upgrades' with a leaky roof, and they get 11.7 million for a construction. Never mind the 20.000 annual fee this private school will charge for admission. And i think she has a point. Also, how many schools in NZ need a government injection of 11.7 million to be build ? https://www.education.govt.nz/school/funding-and-financials/funding/teaching-space-funding/construction-rates/

         It was a truly dumb project to fund during a time where Grant Robertson is happy for the under spend in the wage subsidy cause we are borrowing to much money. NO matter how green the building is going to be.
4. Muttonbird 4

   27 August 2020 at 7:26 pm

   The concept of a private school for Green learning does seem to contradict the Greens' other core values which are social consciousness and equality of opportunity.

   Clearly, only the wealthy have access to this specialist education?

   Reading between the lines it looks like a school for foreign fee paying students which is a good idea – imagine if NZ was the centre of the world for such a sector – but again there are and were better times to be announcing taxpayer support for it.
   • solkta 4.1

     27 August 2020 at 7:31 pm

     Again, this is part of a stimulus package that would not otherwise be available.
     • Sabine 4.1.1

       27 August 2020 at 7:38 pm

       and it was still dumb. If they would have gotten the same average amount as public schools i don't think anyone would really care, what upsets people is that the amount is very much above what public schools get, and during a time where everyone is told to 'tighten the belt' cause we are running out of money.
       • solkta 4.1.1.1

         27 August 2020 at 7:53 pm

         So why don't you vent at Labour?
         • weka 4.1.1.1.1

           27 August 2020 at 8:01 pm

           that would require understand how things actually work.
           • solkta 4.1.1.1.1.1

             27 August 2020 at 8:05 pm

             I know, i really am asking too much.
         • Sabine 4.1.1.1.2

           27 August 2020 at 8:04 pm

           Because they are the government. Labour/Green/NZFirst. And i personally am over the 'kinder gentler' bullshit while at the same time not seeing the work that needs to be done.

           And believe me i am reading their announcements, their election promises, and fuck if they are not several days late and a few dollar short.

           And because in absence of anything better they are the least offensive option to vote for, that or legalize aotearoa and i am seriously considering to voting for these guys this year. (and the no mates party is nothing but offensive, ditto for the conservatives, vision, and the other god squad parties.)

           I complain about the Government because i pay their wages, i vote, i am a citizen and by all that still is good and true they should be our employees not our betters, and because i do believe that if we don’t start paying attention to the homeless and unemployed it will back fire).
           • solkta 4.1.1.1.2.1

             27 August 2020 at 8:08 pm

             Because they are the government. Labour/Green/NZFirst.

             I complain about the Government

             But you are only complaining about the Greens.
             • weka …

               27 August 2020 at 8:16 pm

               funny that.
           • weka 4.1.1.1.2.2

             27 August 2020 at 8:16 pm

             "Because they are the government. Labour/Green/NZFirst."

             No, they're not. The GP are nominally part of government, but they're not formally part of the government. Their Ministers sit outside of Cabinet. The govt is a coalition made up of Labour and NZF, with confidence and supply support from the Greens.

             What this means is that decisions get made in Cabinet without the Greens. The Greens have some power, but not the kind of power that you and others routinely castigate them for misusing.

             But keep on with beating the Greens with the magic wand you think they should have, that will really help us get a better govt.

             If you think I am wrong, demonstrate how. Tell me how the Greens could have made Labour give the money to public schools instead.
             • Sabine …

               27 August 2020 at 8:26 pm

               Nope last i checked is they are in the government. Cloe, James, all the others sit in government, collect nice weekly pay checks for sitting in government, and when it comes to the current government they are happy to be enablers when it suits them, confidence and supply.

               So according to your comment then the announcment of the million dollar wastage on a private school should have come from Robertson and not James Shaw. And if it would have come from Grant Robertson rather then James Shaw it would be Grant to get the bollocking. But sadly for the Greens it was James.

               Now the cynic would say maybe James is the fall guy for this wastage of taxpayers fund, and it would be best for the Greens if they were set up for this by Labour at least then they could put the blame where it belongs. As of now, it seems that James was quite happy with the spend, and others are not.

               If anything i call them out for being dumb. This was dumb. Other then that, i have no use for them. I consider them of no use to the country. Others think differently. As is our right.
           • lprent 4.1.1.1.2.3

             27 August 2020 at 9:42 pm

             Because they are the government. Labour/Green/NZFirst.

             That isn’t actually what this government is. It is a Labour/NZFirst coalition in cabinet, with a supporting confidence and supply agreement from the Greens.

             The Government in NZ is the Cabinet (or the executive council which usually largely overlaps with it). There are no Green party MPs in the cabinet. The former makes the actual decisions, the latter makes them into law.

             The Greens have three ministers outside of cabinet. Ministers outside of cabinet have responsibilities but little direct authority.

             Wikipedia is exactly correct when it says about the current government

             The current government, since October 2017, is a coalition between the Labour and New Zealand First parties, led by Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern. A minority government, the coalition is reliant on the support of the Green Party in order to command a majority in the House of Representatives through a confidence-and-supply agreement.

             You really don’t have to be as ignorant as your average journalist. Just read wikipedia when you need a reasonably accurate overview of a civics issue.
             • weka …

               27 August 2020 at 10:34 pm

               thanks for that. I'm going to quote that in a post if that's ok.
               • lprent …

                 27 August 2020 at 10:40 pm

                 Fine by me. I frequently get astonished at how little people actually understand about how our political and governing structures operate.
             • Sabine …

               27 August 2020 at 10:39 pm

               Yes, the Greens provide only 'supply and convidence' , and that does make them part of this government as per their agreement with labour

               https://www.parliament.nz/media/4487/nzlp___gp_c_s_agreement.pdf

               :"Nature of Agreement The Green Party agrees to provide confidence and supply support to a Labour-led Government for the term of this Parliament. The Green Party will oppose any no confidence motions and will support Budgets developed in accordance with this agreement. The Green Party will determine its own position in relation to any policy or legislative matter not covered by collective responsibility as set out below. Labour in turn supports the areas of priority set out in this document, alongside its policy programme. Confidence and Supply Agreement between the New Zealand Labour Party and the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand. Confidence and Supply Agreement between the New Zealand Labour Party and the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 2 The Labour and Green Parties agree to identify policies and roles in a way that maintains and promotes the distinct identity of each party. The relationship between the Green Party and Labour will be based on good faith and no surprises."

               besides, without the Green support there would be no Labour led Government as the coalition with Labour and NZfirst alone would have not met majority. Th Labour Party won 46 seats, up from 32 at the last election. Their partner, the Green Party won 8 seats, down from 14. New Zealand First won 9 seats, (numbers from wiki link below)

               So while they are a junior partner (supply and confidence) they are part of this current government. And James Shaw in this goverment is the Finance Associate Minister in this role he announced the give away that is now providing ammo for those that would like to replace the government.

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/52nd_New_Zealand_Parliament
     • In Vino 4.1.2

       27 August 2020 at 7:46 pm

       Perhaps the same could be said about Judas Iscariot's 30 pieces of silver?
       • solkta 4.1.2.1

         27 August 2020 at 7:55 pm

         So James should have backed spending the money on roads? Or the Greens should have refused to vote for the stimulus package? What are you actually saying?
         • In Vino 4.1.2.1.1

           27 August 2020 at 8:05 pm

           Roads would have been less damaging. Many of us vote Green because they are the only ones who seem to care about Global Warming, plus they seem to be anti-neo-liberal.

           As a teacher, after the Alliance sank, I looked at all parties' Education policies, liked the Greens' one best, and have party-voted Green ever since.

           That policy is still the best, but in associating himself with this State-funded largesse to an exclusive, expensive private school, James Shaw has just pissed all over his own party's Education policy, and enraged many of his core support.

           I can't imagine Russell Norman, Meteria Turei, or Sue Bradford making such a blunder.
           • solkta 4.1.2.1.1.1

             27 August 2020 at 8:11 pm

             Roads would have been less damaging.

             Yes maybe less damaging to the election campaign, but not the environment. What was that about silver again?
             • In Vino …

               27 August 2020 at 8:24 pm

               I personally agree with you on that point, but the majority of this country are not with us. What I am saying is that James Shaw should have at least tried to express displeasure, or, preferably, disassociated himself completely, and let some Economic underling front it.

               Do not forget that neo-liberalism is the greatest enemy of the environment at present, and that should figure in the Greens' policies.

               Also, the Greens will be of no influence if they fall below 5%. Keep this up, and they may well go below 5%. That will be a disaster for the environment here too. The election does matter.

               Keep thinking about the silver…
           • weka 4.1.2.1.1.2

             27 August 2020 at 8:18 pm

             and yet here is Bradford making a blunder. Afaik, it wasn't within the GP's power to use the money for public schools instead.

             https://twitter.com/suebr/status/1298772802539892736

             I agree with you about the messaging though, and am very disappointed that the Greens didn't front foot this today in the MSM and on SM.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               27 August 2020 at 11:11 pm

               With that sort of funding shouldn't that school becoming one of those privately run state schools (can't recall the name ATM)?
         • Sabine 4.1.2.1.2

           27 August 2020 at 8:08 pm

           yes,

           if the only option was roads, they could have voted yes on roads or no.

           they should not spend tax payers money on a private school.

           they can spend as much money as they like on public schools, of which we have many here in NZ and most of them need money desperately, specifically the schools in the poor areas of this country.
           • solkta 4.1.2.1.2.1

             27 August 2020 at 8:13 pm

             they could have voted yes on roads or no.

             No, they didn't get to vote against roads. They got to vote to support a stimulus package, then to push support for shovel ready projects from the list.
             • Sabine …

               27 August 2020 at 8:29 pm

               and they pick this to associate themselves with it?

               they deserve all the bollocking they get for stupidity.
               • greywarshark …

                 27 August 2020 at 8:45 pm

                 reverse thrust that rocket
           • In Vino 4.1.2.1.2.2

             27 August 2020 at 8:14 pm

             Beware a slight trap, Sabine.

             It is better to call them "state schools" here in NZ, because the obtuse English in the Motherland call their private schools 'Public Schools'.

             That causes confusion here at times..
             • Sabine …

               27 August 2020 at 8:28 pm

               ah, thanks. I had no idea. English, its a funny language sometimes.
5. joe90 5

   27 August 2020 at 7:26 pm

   Puzzled? tRump said in public that he'd asked officials to slow down testing so the numbers would look better for him.

   https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1298582772932648960

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/21/global-report-trump-says-he-ordered-coronavirus-testing-to-slow-down
   • joe90 5.1

     27 August 2020 at 7:55 pm

     ffs

     (CNN)A sudden change in federal guidelines on coronavirus testing came this week as a result of pressure from the upper ranks of the Trump administration, a federal health official close to the process tells CNN, and a key White House coronavirus task force member was not part of the meeting when the new guidelines were discussed.

     "It's coming from the top down," the official said of the new directive from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

     White House coronavirus task force member Dr. Anthony Fauci said he was in surgery and not part of the discussion during the August 20 task force meeting when updated guidelines were discussed.

     "I was under general anesthesia in the operating room and was not part of any discussion or deliberation regarding the new testing recommendations," Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

     https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/26/politics/cdc-coronavirus-testing-guidance/index.html
     • Sabine 5.1.1

       27 August 2020 at 8:44 pm

       poor thing still believes that anyone in the white house cares what he has to say?
       • Andre 5.1.1.1

         27 August 2020 at 8:48 pm

         I doubt Fauci is that deluded. But he may well still care what the rest of the country thinks of him. Hence the need to try to distance himself from that latest bit of malicious shitfuckery.
     • mickysavage 5.1.2

       27 August 2020 at 8:51 pm

       US numbers started to go down at the time that Trump had the new collector of the sample data appointed. Recently they have gone back to the CDC but call me a conspiracist and give me a tinfoil hat but it does not seem right …
       • Sabine 5.1.2.1

         27 August 2020 at 9:09 pm

         your tinfoil hat is very fetching.

         https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/08/20/904450628/white-house-stokes-hopes-that-key-hospital-data-tracking-will-soon-return-to-cdc
6. Muttonbird 6

   27 August 2020 at 7:47 pm

   I like the Greens. So much so that I am considering giving them my precious party vote in October. But I like them for their social policy, not their environmental policy.

   Have go at that, pollsters.
   • greywarshark 6.1

     27 August 2020 at 8:49 pm

     Muttonbird one of the few positives I have heard today.
7. Ad 7

   27 August 2020 at 7:50 pm

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12360199

   Looks like they're all catching on to inequality exacerbated by this government.

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nzs-k-shaped-covid-19-recovery

   "Almost by accident, and without debate, the Labour-led Government has delivered the biggest shot of cash and monetary support to the wealthy in the history of New Zealand, while giving nothing to the renters, the jobless, students, migrants and the working poor who mostly voted it in."

   True they will still romp in.

   But the K shaped recovery means: most people go down and get worse, the rich go up.
   • weka 7.1

     27 August 2020 at 8:00 pm

     same as it was before covid then.
     • Sabine 7.1.1

       27 August 2020 at 8:16 pm

       No worse.

       https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2008/S00324/drop-in-income-for-kiwis-worrying-eeo-commissioner.htm

       Mind i read the list of the Green Party achievement on their site, and they are so proud of the extra 25NZD increase of the base benefit. So very proud. See inequality all fixed.

       And i read the announcements of the Labour party and they are so proud to use the under spend of the wage subsidy to pay unemployed people to start their own businesses…..a few thousand bucks, and they better save up quick as business people then they should know that they need a bolster of a few month pandemic income tucked away. Right?
       • weka 7.1.1.1

         27 August 2020 at 8:20 pm

         fuck off Sabine. You're the one working against the ONLY party in parliament that is actively trying to raise benefits to a decent level.

         You're a hypocrite easily as bad as anything coming out of parliament. All hot air, but no actual support for beneficiaries where we need it.
         • Sabine 7.1.1.1.1

           27 August 2020 at 8:38 pm

           hahahahaha, no i wont, but thanks for the suggestion. Fucking off alone at home ain't that much fun. .

           And i am no more a hypocrite then you are, but i don't celebrate a 25 dollar increase by the greens anymore i did it last time when National pulled this stunt as a success, if anything the fact that it only came about because of Covid and the lockdown already is not a reason to celebrate this, but to acknowledge that without Covid, not one beneficiary would have gotten the 25 nor the double heat payment. Keep that in mind please .

           It is nothing more then a very weak handshake. As i said, i read the party messages, their ideas of what to come, what they think they did well and so on. And i do this with all parties.

           And i have been on record here more then once during the no mates party reign saying exactly what i am saying now.

           That all of our public parties – all of them – are not prepared to do what needs to be done. Namely lift the incomes of all beneficiaries to at least 500 a week (wage subsidy full time after paye is 480.00 odd), because it would be the best way to get money into the local economy, would actually give people on the benefit a bit of time to pay their debts while still eating and paying rent, and so as long as i pay taxes, and vote it is my right to not be impressed when people earning over 5000 a week pride themselves on increasing a benefit by 25$ per week (forced by a pandemic that shut us all in our homes without any income for weeks on end) knowing that it will affect all other side benefits someone may get. And i am not the only ones that have stated that.

           I don’t have party loyalty as you do, i don’t do people worship, but i do read, and i make my mind up on what i read. And i am woefully unimpressed with the government. All of it.
           • Patricia Bremner 7.1.1.1.1.1

             27 August 2020 at 10:26 pm

             Sabine, you are omitting the $60 weekly allowance per child till age 3?

             The winter warmth payment being doubled $900 single -$1400 couple, as well as the 25 dollars.

             Beneficiaries may earn $220 before deductions.

             You appear to want miracles. $500 eh?? A pensioner gets $350 odd
             • Sabine …

               27 August 2020 at 11:39 pm

               Yes, i would love for the pensioner to also get that amount. It is a livable (well for now at least) amount.

               Yes, and once the child is three years old it can get a job. I did not omit this, i truly had no idea, but then the childbearing ages of me and my friends are long behind us, so i really don't know anyone who would get this benefit.

               And yes, the double payment was also due to covid, it is not something that will happen again next year. I am not rubbishing these extras, friends and relatives that receive them are very happy about them, but we need to acknowledge that they came about not because the government is generous, but because a pandemic forced them too.
       • Ad 7.1.1.2

         27 August 2020 at 8:29 pm

         Should the Greens get back in, we'll have to see if beneficiaries do any better.

         Just a few weeks to find out now.
   • Muttonbird 7.2

     27 August 2020 at 8:03 pm

     What bit of wage subsidy do you not get?
     • Ad 7.2.1

       27 August 2020 at 8:25 pm

       The bit where inequality accelerates down even faster than under National.

       Their election strapline should be: Labour … It Could Be Worse
       • Sabine 7.2.1.1

         27 August 2020 at 8:42 pm

         it is.

         this is literally what a friend said the other day, it could be worse. And that is what we get to vote for. Not it will be better, but it could be worse.
   • Pat 7.3

     27 August 2020 at 8:03 pm

     the mistake is the "government' havnt…the independent RBNZ (who are doing their job) however have and the government actions are doing little to change it.
   • Draco T Bastard 7.4

     27 August 2020 at 8:11 pm

     Sounds about normal for this neo-liberal government. Prop-up the rich and then hope that they'll do wonderful things for everyone else.

     Reminds me of the Douglass Adams line:

     I live in what are known as hopes. I hope for fascinating and remunerative cases, my secretary hopes that I will pay her, her landlord hopes that she will produce some rent, the Electricity Board hopes that he will settle their bill, and so on. I find it a wonderfully optimistic way of life.
     • Ad 7.4.1

       27 August 2020 at 8:27 pm

       Had any other party in parliament now been the dominant party, it would have been a lot worse.

       The depth of this crisis goes far deeper than anything "neoliberals" generated.
       • Sabine 7.4.1.1

         27 August 2020 at 8:51 pm

         it is going to be a big bumpy ride for a long long time. I don't think people realised but what ever hopes we had a year ago re inequality, homelessness, unemployment, beneficiaries etc they are gone. The world that we knew is gone, and will not come back. And i fear that it will get a lot worse, and people know it, feel it, fear it.

         And i don't see the government addressing this change, this fear, teh uncertainty, the lack of stability. The dread that tomorrow you may wake up to the bullhorn sound of covid and your town is in lockdown and so are you.

         It could have been worse i agree, but then going into lockdown 4 was the easy part, the hard part is now. And the 10 million $ question is how many of us are we happy to write off on the way to ' it will be better'.
       • greywarshark 7.4.1.2

         27 August 2020 at 8:57 pm

         Who is the organ grinder and who the monkeys in this unpleasant little concert of people who should be ensuring that we have a left government but are apparently auditioning for Mike Hosking's position.

         Why don't you stop trying to destroy my country's earnest efforts to advance?
         • Sabine 7.4.1.2.1

           27 August 2020 at 9:08 pm

           oh boy, tell me again where did i hurt you?
       • Draco T Bastard 7.4.1.3

         27 August 2020 at 9:54 pm

         It would have been worse. No doubt about that.

         Doesn't mean that the government has taken the right path. Sabine tells us that the government is doing an absolutely atrocious job at creating jobs and that is probably what is needed. For the government to actually create new jobs rather propping up failing ones in the new paradigm.

         After all, the government used to create jobs but any jobs that it creates now are going to be far different than they used to be. Full R&D, building factories to produce goods, and extracting NZs resources from the ground (in a sustainable and environmentally friendly way) for those factories to use.

         And that means that we can't continue on the neo-liberal path.
         • Sabine 7.4.1.3.1

           27 August 2020 at 11:18 pm

           NO i am telling you that the government does an atrocious job at redistributing money. Not quite the same. I am very much convinced that people will create jobs on their own, and these jobs will hopefully be better in times of pandemics – better adjusted to it then we are now with the little knowledge that we have and time given.

           In absence of job creation which is gonna be fairly hard considering that chances are we will live with rolling shutdowns for the next 12- 48 month or until we have a vaccine or until the virus runs it course, money needs to be distributed to those that have no jobs, lost their jobs, will lose their jobs as there is nothing there to replace them. And we will bleed jobs for a while. And businesses need some stability to plan. Atm, depending the business you run, you don't have stability at all. I was supposed to go to a lifestyle show in three weeks, as of today we exhibitors and the planners of these shows have no idea if it will go ahead cause Lockdown 2, If like me you make the stuff you sell, when are you gonna start making? 🙂

           Leaving people on the current benefit starvation rates will make things only worse for the country – as already in the best of all times they did not allow beneficiaries to live life fully – but with tens of thousand more potentially long term without jobs, like it or not the economy needs money, and hundreds of thousands of people on low wages and starvation benefits rates don't make an economy. So your UBI or me who says just pay people more money, both would work.

           It would be awesome if the Government were to fully commit to create future orientated jobs, like building Green schools for all of our kids and not just the ones whose parents can afford to drop 20 grand for the pleasure, put a cycle lane next to every road in NZ, bring back heavy rail – include a stop at the airport in akl while yer at it – train lab staff, train nurses – without student loans to burden them – But i don't hold my breath.

           btw, i lived in 1990, but i did not live in Ttaiwan or China 🙂 So no i never lived trough a pandemic, and i would venture most people here in NZ would say the same if you asked them about it. the wage subsidy allowed businesses to pay wages to their staff, while they had to pay the running costs of their business during the shut down. I don't know anyone who got money for the leases, insurances, loss of stock, etc. We all carried these costs out of the money we had. And i would like to point out again, that i don't speak for the large corporations in NZ but for the micro businesses like mine or those of people around me – most of whom are run by women. If that makes any difference?
           • Draco T Bastard 7.4.1.3.1.1

             28 August 2020 at 10:36 am

             Yes. This is what you said:

             living in a country where the government has done an abysmal job of creating any jobs.

             And people are very bad at creating their own jobs. There's numerous reasons for this but major ones are not having the necessary resources nor the necessary information. The government has both and is thus in a better position to create jobs that are actually meaningful.

             money needs to be distributed to those that have no jobs, lost their jobs, will lose their jobs as there is nothing there to replace them.

             Yes it does but that doesn't mean that businesses should be subsidised.

             Atm, depending the business you run, you don't have stability at all.

             Planning for that is all part of capitalism. Getting the necessary insurance in place.

             If you're going to go on about how great capitalism is and actually be a capitalist then you're just going to have to accept the down side as well. That's called personal responsibility.

             So your UBI or me who says just pay people more money, both would work.

             The UBI would work better as then we're not subsidising business. The UBI is also a great way to introduce money into the economy. Certainly much better than the present system of borrowing from private banks.

             the micro businesses like mine or those of people around me

             Unless such small businesses are in a cooperative that does major R&D then I consider them to be a waste of time and resources.
       • Stuart Munro 7.4.1.4

         27 August 2020 at 10:05 pm

         Tell that to the people who lost the will to live under neoliberalism.
8. Sabine 8

   27 August 2020 at 9:12 pm

   putin at the orange festival in the white house

   https://twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1298849340253970433
9. joe90 9

   27 August 2020 at 9:19 pm

   landfall

   https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/sector_band.php?sat=G16&sector=gm&band=07&length=24

   edit: local tv livestream
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsR82bcEyvU&feature=youtu.be
   • Cinny 9.1

     27 August 2020 at 9:40 pm

     It's like the apocalypse in the states at the moment with all the goings on, it's completely insane. Fires, hurricanes, riots and trump….. apocalyptic.

     They wheeled out a nun in full habit at the RNC today, a 4min speech on anti abortion. I guess she turned a blind eye to the adulterous liar she supports to lead the country.

     I'm becoming convinced that they are completely mad. Never seen anything like it before.
     • Patricia Bremner 9.1.1

       27 August 2020 at 10:31 pm

       Cinny, Ancient Rome before the fall?
       • Cinny 9.1.1.1

         28 August 2020 at 7:49 am

         Absolutely Patricia.
10. Jum 10

    27 August 2020 at 9:31 pm

    If a private school has received taxpayer funding for a green building then we have invested in it and should be receiving a dividend if there is any profit, or should we just call well educated children a good dividend, and they should be bonded to serve as teachers in NZ public schools for 3 years? Building must be given back to the people of NZ if not required in future.

    Even better, because 11.7million$ was handed over, we can now spend that on public schools and introduce an education tax on all private schools to pay for it.
11. Sabine 11

    27 August 2020 at 10:56 pm

    and Hipkins already paddling back on the school funds which does not surprise me at all.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300093441/james-shaw-calls-meeting-with-green-members-to-explain-private-school-funding-decision

    i suggest that people click on the link of the principal reading a letter to the PM. You won't like what she has to say, but then if you listen to the end she will state that she received 73.000 for upgrades while this school will receive 11.7 million.
12. PaddyOT 12

    27 August 2020 at 11:09 pm

    Was it appropriate over time giving the America's Cup, Skycity, AMI, South Canterbury Finance, BNZ and Tiwai Rio Tinto taxpayers money,
    if the success for those 'investments' were measured against longer term, public benefit across a range of fiscal, social and environmental benefits?

    My view is 'No'.

    Such investments in the private cooperate sector listed ( aka bailouts) were arguably only of benefit to protect the big boys. Then at the times of profit loss, measures of job sackings, going offshore or closure ensue in order to maximise shareholders' profits.

    So why the condemnation when the investment for 'shovel ready' projects then progressively improve the social infrastructure sector with longer term benefit ? The critera for projects were not only for economic stimulus but had also to reflect the social & environmental objectives that the Government committed to.

    Some examples across catergories –

    • The National Papakāinga Network, which covers six iwi, hapū and whānau housing projects, is one of the 11 projects included in the Covid-19 Recovery projects.

    • $50 million as first stage in Northland for boosting broadband access and capacity. Then to roll out across most regions of New Zealand, with an emphasis on Te Tai Tokerau (Northland), Bay of Plenty, Waikato, Top of South and Canterbury, secondly, Gisborne, Manawatu-Wanganui, Auckland rural areas and Otago, and thirdly Hawkes Bay, West Coast, Taranaki, Wellington (rural), and Southland. ( money maker for the I.T. sector, jobs and social and educational connectivity).

    • $12 million from the Provincial Growth Fund to help build a 1300-seat theatre in Hamilton will create 300 jobs, enable arts education and development and boost tourism in the region.

    • Upgrade and Installation of ORC Flow Management Structures at Robson Lagoon (part of Lake Tuakitoto Wetland, a regionally significant wetland) – The flow management structures will allow sustainable habitat levels and flows during flood events. The control structures will provide for the passage of fish.
    Fish !!!!

    • The Green School in Taranaki is funded as a construction project. $11.7 million for their expansion project, promoting a sustainable building, creating 200 jobs and diversifying the Taranaki economy away from oil and gas and contributing $43 million annually back into the economy as well as developing ' green' focused learning.

    My belief is that as opposed to the corporate bailouts, the recovery projects shift emphasis to more sustainable, localised, people oriented benefits. In common is that private sector will profit in the 'construction' of projects but in contrast to those past mega millions in bailouts, these social and environmental investments redistribute wealth more widely and progress greater equality in their outcomes.
    
    • Sabine 12.1

      27 August 2020 at 11:44 pm

      the only difference between the projects you list and the private school is the private part of the school. Private – for people who can drop 20.000 per year, anyone else can find a leaky public state school with outdated material and gadgets and not enough staff.
    • halfcrown 12.2

      28 August 2020 at 11:06 am

      PaddyOT wrote @12 27th 11.09pm

      “Was it appropriate over time giving the America's Cup, Skycity, AMI, South Canterbury Finance, BNZ and Tiwai Rio Tinto taxpayers money,
      if the success for those 'investments' were measured against longer term, public benefit across a range of fiscal, social and environmental benefits?

      My view is 'No'.

      • $12 million from the Provincial Growth Fund to help build a 1300-seat theatre in Hamilton will create 300 jobs, enable arts education and development and boost tourism in the region.”

      With respect my friend I am afraid that contribution to the Hamilton White Elephant is another corporate hand out

      We have here a very vocal minority group lead by the leading businesses of the district called the Momentum Waikato. This group appears to have more say and sway than the overburdened Hamilton ratepayer. They only have to say “s..t” and one can get killed in the rush for this compliant council and CEO jumping on the shovel. There are additional costs (like 20 mil) to be paid by the overburdened ratepayer plus, the running costs estimated to be 1mil plus p.a. not including inflation for the next 25 years. A rough total of over 50 mil. In addition, something the council and this group appear not to mention. who is going to pick up the losses which it will make? I tell you, it will be the ratepayer, whilst the corporates have their new toy and no doubt someone’s name on a plaque.

      The only additional employment, once it is built, will be for aspiring thespians, some who don’t live in Hamilton already wetting their pants over to the thought of playing in this white elephant.

      It is a well-known fact that this is going to be another loss-making entity which they were warned about, and even more so now we have this virus going berserk in the community. This to be added to the already growing list of loss-making entities like the Claudland Event Centre just to name one.

      As for “attracting tourist” if we go on previous projects that we were told we HAD to have built to someones ego like the museum, I cannot see an increase in tourists because of the theatre.
13. PaddyOT 13

    28 August 2020 at 12:47 am

    I think that's a fair assessment Sabine, it seems to be a contentious choice; however in all the recovery projects are private interests who benefit financially, for example the construction companies. It's the outcomes of projects that had different sectors having to meet more social equity and environmental pluses as the criteria over and above fiscal stimulation. For one, having looked through the different papa kainga projects and greater IT connectivity for communities puts profit in private sector development but unlike the 90's BNZ bailout, the projects are a shift and a start on long term investment for improving lives.
14. Incognito 14

    28 August 2020 at 1:08 am

    “It’s not perfect but if you’re trying to achieve a number of objectives it achieves a number of those: it creates a number of jobs in the region, it supports the green building industry, and it’s in Taranaki, the region we’re trying to move on from oil and gas,” Shaw said.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300093441/james-shaw-calls-meeting-with-green-members-to-explain-private-school-funding-decision

    I doubt that it will sway naysayers. It is much easier to govern for your fan and focus clubs than to try doing the right thing and governing without prejudice and in a non-partisan manner. The private-intolerant will mount their high horses and trample on anything judged intolerable hypocrisy – nuance and context are dirty words because in the world of Homo common sensius things are simple and clear-cut and policies are five bullet points, no more, no less:

    National has a comprehensive five point plan to rescue the economy

    Easy to remember using your fingers as mnemonic, which is a trick used by, you guessed it, five year-olds.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300092612/90day-trials-would-return-but-lunchtime-gone-by-lunchtime-under-national-small-business-policy

    It is the killer blow for the Green Economy and attempts to combat CC, as nothing will be good enough. It is like not allowing the fire brigade to extinguish the fire threatening to engulf your home because there might be fluoride in the water that could contaminate your organic vegie garden.
15. PaddyOT 15

    28 August 2020 at 1:50 am

    Perhaps National's reintroduction of 90 day and further harsh employment conditions will add to their Party's demise. Increased unemployment has impacted on even their own believers so a negative for the servants looking for work who won't want the biff in the ninety days. Act's policy raises it from 90 days to up to 12 months to sack for no good reason.
16. PaddyOT 16

    28 August 2020 at 2:02 am

    Reply and edit buttons giving changeable responses.

    Important to note re- green school project expenditure that since 2018 improvement programmes expenditure has now $2.4 billion on the go in the pool of funds for all schools to address National's neglected schools.

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