David Lange had guts

Written By: - Date published: 7:26 am, March 2nd, 2015 - 133 comments
Categories: activism, iraq, war - Tags: , ,

It doesn’t take guts to meekly obey the big boys in “The Club”. It takes guts to stand up and oppose them on the world stage:

See also this brilliant piece by Toby Manhire last Friday.

133 comments on “David Lange had guts”

  1. Matthew Hooton 1

    Yep, David Lange believed nuclear weapons were evil and stood up against them.
    Andrew Little believes ISIS is evil (I assume) and wants to hide from them.

    • how is yr neck after that short/sharp spin..?

      .careful there..!

      • phillip ure 1.1.1

        (and look..!..yr area of expertise is chronicled..)

        “..Secrets of Conservatives’ Decades-Long War on Truth..

        ..The right knows that facts and reason have a liberal bent.

        That’s why their decades-long strategy is to lie..”



        (hope that doesn’t blow yr gaff…eh..?..)

        • tricledrown

          Machevelian Henchman.
          He also knows after $100’s of billions have Beenspent on Iraqi wars its a waste of time clinging to the US Clonial Clownial Coronial Empire as did David Lange when the consequences were getting kicked out of Anzus.
          George HW Bush warned his son not to invade Iraq as it will turn into a Hornets nest.Bush Senior was quickly sidelined.
          But now every other Countrythatthat grovels to America has to clean up Their their yes Their Mess.
          There is no appetite in the US to send in ground troops.
          So step up gutless grovelars.
          Key Abott Cameron and company.
          Poor Spin there Hooton

        • tricledrown

          Right whingers.
          Have all the answers solutions no need for democracy openess transparency discussion’s alternative opinions.
          They don’t count their traitorous blah blah.
          Hooton your over here in the style Vlad amire Putin.
          Denying Democracy with your hypocracy.

      • Skinny 1.1.2

        You will have to forgive Hooton this morning Phil. He will be a little angry his mate and client Gibson folded their cards over the Port of Auckland dispute with the Maritime Union.

        After the revelations in the book Dirty Politics the POAL would not have wanted disclosure of the dirty facts. So the power players in the background were left no option but to stump up a settlement.

        • phillip ure

          i think he is able to see that the end may well be nigh..

          ..the gravey-train might be about to pull into the station..

          ..as a peters win up north will likely bring on an early election…

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2

      Matthew Hooton wants his government contracts back: this necrophilia is just his way of saying please.

      • adam 1.2.1

        Funny how all those individuals who arguing for the privatization of state services – are the first ones cap in hand asking for state monies.

        • Once was Tim

          It’s often the way with the redneckery that protest over dole bludgers too. Right up until the time they’re forced to cash-up cos they’ve overspent and cracked the credit cards and have to go grovelling in to their nearest WINZ office . Oh the shame! when the Ute and the second flat screen have to go back. Oh the injustice of it all! All the while these bloody dole bludgers have been getting money (albeit living hand to mouth) from ‘the STATE’.
          I’ve recent;y seen two such instances in the Keptee area (you know …. where good ole’ Nafe who doesn’t inhale lays claim)
          Both expect me to feel sympathy for them. Just can’t do it sorry. Oh, and I forgot – one has evaded child support ever since I’ve known the prick and is contemplating a life across the ditch. (I’m picking it’ll be the Gold Coast) .

          That demographic ilk form part of the Natzi ‘broad church’

    • JanM 1.3

      That’s the sort of inane, kneejerk reaction I observe you usually stay away from. When detractors start losing their reason and saying silly things, it’s usually a sign you have them on the run

    • Pascals bookie 1.4

      Key is the one pissing his pants, talking about some threat from Indonesia and Malyasia who have between them had fewer foreign fighters go to Syria than Canada, ffs.

      The man needs to either get better advice, stop bloody lying or just get a grip on himself.

        • Chooky

          lol…we still dont know who has given financial and other support for ISIS….it would seem ISIS is related to fundamentalist Wahhabist Sunni Saudi Arabia which is opposed to Shi’ite Iran and Syria and Shi’ite governance in Iraq….very likely ISIS has economic support from Saudi Arabia…….but who are friends with Saudi Arabia?….and who has had the same goals to take down Iran , Iraq , Libya and Syria?


          • One Anonymous Bloke

            Key was talking about local support. He was asked whether it was likely we’d see specific threats against individuals, and identified himself as the most likely target.

            So now people who make threats against Key can be added to the list of “40-60” names he alleges are heavy duty ISIS sympathisers.

            Once the number of sympathisers goes up, so does the threat level.

            • CnrJoe

              So when Key’s in Hawaii does that raise the threat level for Hawaiians ?

        • Tracey

          and yet there was NO genuine security for he, the Aussie PM, the Ministers of foreign affairs at the NZC dinner on Friday night. had anyone genuinely wanted to harm any of the four they could, easily, and they would now be dead along with many others in that room. The lack of security and checks was laughable when you have to listen to Key and Hoot On and others go on about ISIS threat to US in NZ and our “way of life”.

          • Murray Rawshark

            I suspect there was no visible security. They would have been there. They don’t all stand around with dark glasses, shaved heads, and earpieces.

    • Sabine 1.5

      How old are you?
      And are you signing up, volunteering for the most exiting mission in the fubar adventure of the middle east?

      Or are you one of those overpaid, underwhelming chickenhawks form the 101st keyboard brigade?

      But really, How old are you?

      • phillip ure 1.5.1

        hes a young-fogey..

        ..(they are quite common/thick on the ground – in tory circles..)

        • Once was Tim

          (Jamie Lee-Ross types?) The redneckery I refer to above call ’em “soft cocks”

      • infused 1.5.2

        Why do you care?

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          It’s an expression, usually interpreted as “are you twelve?”

        • Once was Tim

          Why are you here? (other than to try and wind people up and satisfy your ego). It’s certainly NOT for any sort of informed debate – rather to take your ego out for a run (I’m impressed btw – have you considered a triathalon? or the Coast to Coast?)

    • les 1.6

      Lucky we have the heroic John Key to fight the evil doers and protect us from folks who want to harm us.Why do they want to harm us again?

    • Colonial Rawshark 1.7

      John Key is sending our troops into someone else’s civil war, picking Shia against Sunni muslims, with no plan to win and no credible exit plan.

    • Tiger Mountain 1.8

      …and Tory Toady legs in the air award from the Nat HQ/Crosby Textor/Farrar-Poll early shift goes to…

    • saveNZ 1.9

      @ Matthew Hooton

      You’ll be the first to sign up then…

      • infused 1.9.1

        That’s what the people in the armed forces signed up for. Stop being so fucking stupid with these remarks.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          “Fucking stupid” they certainly didn’t sign up for.

          This “plan” is fucking stupid. We know this because it’s the same “plan” as last time, and that’s why ISIS exists in the first place.

          I say we help the Peshmerga (they need better weapons) and the Kurds in the autonomous regions, and especially try and broker a lasting peace between Turkey and the PKK.

          And try to get our four “mates” to close down their terrorist factory.

          • infused

            Yes mr arm chair general. You know what’s best.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Your ‘arguments’ are beyond feeble.

              If my suggestions make me an armchair general what does that make the civilians who give the actual orders?

              Y’know, my ‘representatives’, whose actions they freely admit will lead to an increased threat level.

              If I’m going to enjoy an increased threat level I’d like there to be some sort of upside, and this ‘plan’ won’t deliver it.

              Perhaps when you’re done polishing your charge of the Light Brigade you could pause for a moment and learn some recent history.

            • greywarshark

              And you know nothing. Which you frequently demonstrate even if you don’t admit it.

          • TheContrarian

            “We know this because it’s the same “plan” as last time, and that’s why ISIS exists in the first place.”

            The existence of ISIS is due to a multitude of reason, just US invasion of Iraq being just one. To lay the blame on the US alone is facile and incorrect

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              To assume that I’m just talking about the US invasion of Iraq is facile and incorrect.

              How about decades of US support for brutal Ophthalmologists? Or the vile House of Saud?

              Some say Ayman Al-Zawhiri learnt to hate at the hands of Egyptian torturers. I note the US does its own torturing these days.

              Certainly there are other factors – British racism for example, and of course all the religious hate-preachers in Charter schools Madrassa, and that asshole the Ayatollah.

              And where did ISIS get all its heavy weapons?

              • TheContrarian

                Not to mention their interpretation of the Koran, decades of Sunni/Shiite tension, the overthrow of regional strongmen during the Arab Spring etc etc

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  The Western support for the regional bedwetters in the first place…

        • Colonial Rawshark

          Show me one Kiwi soldier who signed up to be sent on a no win-no plan ME military adventure by some clueless civvy in a suit.

          • Puckish Rogue

            Since soldiers can now opt out I’ll show you 140 odd soldiers who will sign up

            • phillip ure

              that is just more spin/bullshit from key..

              ..imagine the peer-group pressures..

              ..and the career-ending choice of ‘not going’..

              ..and you can see what utter spin/bullshit that is from key..

            • Colonial Rawshark

              Since soldiers can now opt out I’ll show you 140 odd soldiers who will sign up

              You civvy piece of shit, “opt out” missions are typically highly dangerous ones recognised to have a low probability of success/high casualty rates.

              • Puckish Rogue

                You’re calling me a civvy piece of shit? So tell me all about your military experience, I’d be interested in knowing.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Still waiting to hear the military exploits of Colonial Rawshark, guess I’ll be waiting awhile

                  • Realblue

                    There are none he’s an anti-science fraud, [deleted]. An “indoors boy” who would curl up into a ball if confronted anywhere but his keyboard.

                    Still claiming to be a doctor CV?

                    [Pointless personal attacks that you can’t back up with proof will result in a banning. This is your one and only warning.] – Bill

                    [lprent: That was also pointless defamatory abuse. He is exactly what you are saying that he is not, which makes that a defamatory fact. So I’m overriding Bill. Banned for one month for putting this site at risk of legal action. ]

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Really? You’re accusing me of heresy against scientism? I’m in hysterics.

                      Most chiropractors would be dissatisfied to be thought of, or mistaken for, a medical practitioner (or physio, or osteopath, or…). They are clearly members of a separate and distinct profession.

                      In general, chiropractors go well out of their way to ensure that people know that our historical and philosophical roots are not of the orthodox medical paradigm.

                    • weka

                      “There are none he’s an anti-science fraud, masquerading as a health professional. An “indoors boy” who would curl up into a ball if confronted anywhere but his keyboard.

                      Still claiming to be a doctor CV?”

                      What on earth does that comment have to do with this conversation?

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Was I not correct? You are a civvy piece of chicken hawk shit right? Keen for everyone else to go to war, and not even understanding what an opt-out mission might actually mean, and then ignorantly trying to portray it as a good thing.

                  You’re worse than useless to our nation, you’re dangerous.

                  • felix

                    lol, it’s like when Cullen called John Key a rich prick, and they all took offense at the word “rich”.

                    Fucking dumbarses.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      And although they can spew their endless chicken hawk shit, unless I’m Master Chief they reckon I don’t get an opinion. Useless ***ts.

                  • tbf the civvy thing does sound a little commando comicish

                • Once was Tim

                  Careful PR – your testosterone is showing. I caught a glimpse behind that frilly little number your wearing. If I’ve told you once – I’ve told you a thousand times! A Hawk Blue prejudice can’t be hid behind that little number you’ve run up on the Elna using cheap lace. Actually I’ve got a bit of military brass and one or two stripes I came by after a death or two in the family that might act as a disguise – but I doubt it.

            • Pascals bookie

              Our soldiers are voulnteers and well trained. They also follow civilian orders.

              That means citizens have a duty to make sure politicians don;t give them stupid fucking orders. Agree?

              There is no respect for soldiers in treating them as expendable units ‘who have signed up so who cares?’.

              • tricledrown

                How manu soldiers came back in body bags becausr Key’s cost cutting in the Defence force likewise in Timor the previous National govt ‘s cost cutting left our soldiers with Vietnam era communications that were unreliable guns which broke down and weren’t able to launch grenade or fire once a grenade was launched our armoured vehicles broke down more than they went.
                In Afghanistan after spending $600 million plus on high tech LAV’s Key said it would be to expensive to deploy them and also turned down an offer from the Australian defence force of IED proof surplus vehicles already in Afghanistan.
                John Key is directly responsible for those soldiers deaths in Afghanistan.
                Are you reading Mathew Hooton.

                Only after a public outcry that Shonkey deployed LAV’s what a fucken Hero!

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Off the top of my head, there was one soldier killed by enemy fire, one killed in a roading accident (in that the road gave way), one killed by misadventure (involved alcohol and the in-theatre leave center), one guy committed suicide, one other soldier from another country (under NZ command) was killed and there may have been another

                  So six in Timor over a number of years

                  • tricledrown

                    The reasons that were looked into at the timr were mainly from underfunding poor equipment poor training no support for front line soldiers because of poorly maintained outdated equipment.
                    National cut the Defence force budget to the bone.
                    The soldier killed in the road collapse should have been in an operational tracked APC but they were continually breaking down. Because of cost cutting the ADF kept their APC’s well maintained and have completely refurbished them as the light weight Aluminium bodys are ideal for Jungle warfare.
                    The Moral of our Defense force was severly undermined in the 1990’s by Nationals continual cuts so they could offer election bribes tax cuts.
                    The Steyer machine guns cost lives becauses of poor maintenance and a failure to sue the manufacturer to fix faults.
                    The communications Radios were so old parts were hard to find to keep them operational and were totally useless because not only did they not work but they couldn’t communicate with the lead command force Australian Defense Force at all.
                    Then after many years of cost cutting the best leaders and soldiers were leaving in droves as pay was so low many left for civvy jobs or overseas armies.
                    The Enquiries exposed many many short comings of Nationals cheapskate approach even the US critiscised their ANZUS partner for their cheapskate approach!
                    Michael Cullen increased spending on the Defence Force by $900 Million a year to bring our Defence force up to date.
                    Now Key and co are cutting again.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Friggin Steyrs

                      OK in an urban environment. But utterly limited in rural/desert Iraq where an AK47 has a couple of hundred metres more effective range.

                      How on earth are our troops going to train Iraqi forces to use AK47s???

                  • felix

                    ” Off the top of my head”

                    Lol bullshit.

              • Scintilla

                Totally agree PB.

              • Murray Rawshark

                As “Other People’s Wars” showed, our soldiers do not always follow civilian orders. Or at least not those given by Kiwi civilians.

            • McFlock

              Well, opting-out will sort of be a bit of a career-downer, don’t you think?
              Not to mention leaving your mates to go while you stay behind. Even if the soldier has enough familiarity with the geopolitical situation to make an informed decision.

              But it also blurs the fact that soldiers aren’t politicians: soldiers essentially have to trust their commanders and their civilian leaders to make the right/best decisions, and the threshhold for second-guessing those decisions needs to be pretty high. Making a half-arsed decision to be “part of the club” (or whatever stupid analogy key makes this time) is a betrayal of that trust, “opt out” or not.

          • weka

            “Show me one Kiwi soldier who signed up to be sent on a no win-no plan ME military adventure by some clueless civvy in a suit.”

            True, although it could also be argued that anyone joining the armed services must know by now that there are significant times when the govt chooses to do stupid shit with them.

          • greywarshark

            They sure as hell didn’t. They signed up to be……by some noble wise commander in a uniform. Yes sirree.

            The American Sniper portrayed in the film recently being interviewed by Conan O’Brien had to be advised that he didn’t need to address O’Brien as Sir. So get the defence forces into shape, thinking right and they’ll follow anything, salute anything, well not a duck but a hawk anyway.

        • Tracey

          so far Hoots is winning the fucking stupid remarks game today.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            And the competition has been fierce.

          • Bill

            If Andrew Little is hiding and John Key (as I understand it all) is priding himself in doing the opposite of what Andrew Little is doing, then is John Key in Iraq popping up in various ISIS camps going “Peekaboo!”?

    • ankerawshark 1.10

      That is just spin and you know it Matthew. I expect better from you.

      Its not hiding refusing to go on a mission that as everyone who knows anything is saying (not Key), is pointless and futile and only endangers NZders (troops and civilians ) more.

      Hiding from them, is emotive language that means nothing.

      • infused 1.10.1

        The left want NZ to do something on climate change, even though it will achieve nothing. Yet oppose sending troops to to Iraq?

        Ironic. When it suits eh?

        • framu

          considering those are two utterly different things – not really

        • Colonial Rawshark

          What a moronic thing to say.

          Can you really not tell the difference from an actual moral stance and the PR’d manufactured morality of imperial over-reach?

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Stop being so fucking stupid. You’re so busy flinging mud it’s clogged your ears up.

          There are plenty of things we can do that have a chance of success*. This ‘plan’ doesn’t.

          *see my comment at for examples

          • Pascals bookie

            He can’t. It’s the way he is.

            the dude thought the last North Korean round of tough talk would end up with a war between Iran and Israel. He’s a bit, thick.

        • weka

          “The left want NZ to do something on climate change, even though it will achieve nothing”

          That statement lets us know that you are either very stupid or a sociopath. Or both. Not sure why your comments in war would have any relevancy after that.

        • felix

          “The left want NZ to do something on climate change, even though it will achieve nothing. Yet oppose sending troops to to Iraq?”

          I’ll type slowly so everyone can follow.

          On climate change we can’t make a meaningful difference on our own. However we do have a choice: we can lead by example and demonstrate to other nations what’s possible, or we can follow the pack into oblivion.

          On joining stupid wars we also can’t make a meaningful difference on our own. However we also have a choice: we can lead by example and demonstrate to other nations what’s possible, or we can follow the pack into oblivion.

          In both cases, infused, all the evidence shows that ethically, morally, and practically, you are on the wrong side and I am on the right side.

          Let’s have no more of that particular line of bullshit, eh?

          • mac1

            “I’ll type slowly so everyone can follow.” 🙂 Nice key speed there, Felix.

            “We also have a choice: we can lead by example and demonstrate to other nations what’s possible……….”

            That is why I was, and still am dammit, so proud of the Kirk and the Lange Governments on Nuclear, Peace and Springbok Tour issues. We led………… we held positions based on ethical considerations…………. we were respected.

        • tricledrown

          Confused you have scored an own goal with your Irony.
          Colaterally damaged your argument.
          Green on Green firing.
          Or is that green on blue.
          It could be Whale spew.

          • infused

            It was intended to show how stupid it is.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Don’t refer to yourself as “it”.

            • felix

              You made the argument that opposing pig-headed stupidity on climate change is somehow in conflict with opposing pig-headed stupidity in the middle east to show how stupid that argument is?

              Mission accomplished.

        • Tracey

          You do understand that there is more than one way to assist the Iraqi’s don’t you? Or are you a little too young to have developed critical thinking?

    • Skinny 1.11

      Bit of an angry way to start the day Hooton unlike you chap. Now what’s the latest happenings with building out into the harbour?

    • Bastables 1.12

      I presume you have information on all the combat deployments that NZ has carried out over the years fighting against nuclear powers then?

    • tricledrown 1.13

      Lange had the guts to take us out of ANZUS.
      Key has taken us right back in deep as the Vietnam era.
      Spineless gutless grovelar that John Key happy to be a poodle on Obamas knee!

    • emergency mike 1.14

      Wow that’s some pathetic low grade spin you got there mr political commentator. How long did you Slater and Farrar sit around dreaming up that one? Go try it on a focus group now that it’s been sufficiently laughed at here.

    • Tracey 1.15

      Gosh, I see what you did there, you are SO clever. You are just TOO intelligent for most people Matthew.

    • b waghorn 1.16

      As far as I can tell Little isn’t hiding from Isis he just thinks (and is right IMO)
      That key sending a few trainers will be a big risk for no gain.
      Usually you’re comments are clever but this one shows your having a bad day.

      • Tracey 1.16.1

        The USA has spent billions and not insignificant time since 2003 training Iraqi troops, why will it all be different this time?

        • b waghorn

          I think we need an interpreter ,I’m in agreement with Littles view that a few trainers is pointless ,I was responding to Hootons comment.

  2. DoublePlusGood 2

    What a shame he didn’t use guts to stop his caucus implementing all that neoliberal bullshit that’s made us billions worse off.

    • Murray Rawshark 2.1

      Roger Douglas was really scary and caught them all by surprise, despite outlining his foul plans in a book published in 1980. I would have loved to see some guts against Rogernomics as well.

      On the proposed All Bleck tour of South Africa – Lange stayed out of it. Two young lawyers eventually stopped it with a court case.

      Lange took the side of the bosses in a Kawerau dispute. The company cunningly gave an untrained woman a job on a sophisticated machine. The workers went out for safety reasons. Lange took the gutsy stand of not supporting a union that “was against the employment of women.” In other words, he bullshitted. I could smell the fetid scabbery on his breath.

      Lange and Prebble had the guts to break all the promises they made on their “Save the Rail campaign.” I remember his lovely sounding words about a family in a Honda Civic getting monstered by trucks on the Southern Motorway.

      Guts? Lange made me sick to mine.

  3. Molly 3

    Don’t forget the “guts” that Marilyn Waring showed when she crossed the floor during the “no nukes” bill.

    If it wasn’t for that act of bravery, the snap election would not have occurred, and the anti-nuclear momentum for Lange to pick up (and be awarded complete ownership of) would not have happened.

    • Wynston 3.1

      Sure, Marilyn stood by her principles, BUT Labour would have won no matter when the election was held.

      • ianmac 3.1.1

        Marilyn could not have known the outcome of the election when she took those brave steps.

        • rawshark-yeshe

          So now, if Winston wins up north, then a majority of the House opposes troops to Iraq, according to Vernon Small this morning.

          Is there now a brave MP who would bring it tumbling down around Key and force a vote on troops in Iraq ?

          “Interestingly, if Peters won Northland there would be a majority – 61-60 – opposed to sending troops to Iraq, though no vote is needed to approve the deployment.”


          and big PS : David Lange had an intelligence and humanity John Key can only dream about.

          • Chooky

            +100…”David Lange had an intelligence and humanity John Key can only dream about”.

            • Half crown

              +100…”David Lange had an intelligence and humanity John Key can only dream about”.

              He doesn’t dream about that The lying fucking money trading gutless spiv only dreams about MONEY

          • phillip ure

            @ rawshark..

            ..i had a little bit to do with lange before he became a politician..

            ..when he was acting as a lawyer/champion for the poor/disposessed in the courts..

            ..and i can only confirm yr ‘intelligence and humanity’ observation..

            • rawshark-yeshe

              +100 @phillip — me too — I saw him first in the courts in that very role as he defended the Australian partner of a dear friend — he was formidable in his acuity and basic decency. And a mountain of mirth along with it ! Such a great Kiwi and I still miss him.

        • Molly

          You are right, but she made a decision to stand against the rest of her party when most of them were bullied into a state of compliance.

          She is hardly ever mentioned in the history of our no-nukes policy – and yet without her it would not have happened – and perhaps not have fueled further public debate. And I understand that David Lange, while very charmingly defending our policy at Oxford – required some persuasion to have his government enact the no-nukes.

          • rawshark-yeshe

            100% Molly on Marilyn.

            And if Key thought for a single moment that could get away with reversing our nuclear-free policy, he would do it. I believe It’s always there in the background for his masters and him .. maybe he could even be levered under TPPA.

    • Hateatea 3.2

      Marilyn Waring had my admiration for her stand then and still has to this day. It certainly took more than the usual amount of gumption to stand up for what she knew to be right against the bully boy tactics of Muldoon and his acolytes. We do not acknowledge her career enough in my opinion.

  4. Yep, David Lange believed nuclear weapons were evil and stood up against them.
    Andrew Little believes ISIS is evil (I assume) and wants to hide from them.

    John Key believes ISIS is evil, so evil in fact that he is willing to make the gutsy commitment of sending, er, 16 trainers and associated support staff to deal with them.

    • Tracey 4.1

      for quite a few millions…

      only a coward would offer medical teams, hospital assistance for civilians, build schools, hospitals, bridges and infrastructure, you know with engineers and medical staff.

  5. saveNZ 5

    People are looking for a moral leader in the next government, not someone that just agrees with the status quo (and I’m not JUST talking National here). The surveillance bill for example reminds me of the Stasi and the Johnny English style ill fated MI5 harassment/recruitment of Emwazi which seems to have radicalised him and emerged him into Jihadi John. How many more bungles do we have to put up with before saying STOP? I have not even got into the reason for invading Iraq, the mythical weapons of mass destruction. The SIS and Phil Goff incident.

    What an F…ing mess and NZ should stay well out of it. It is not going to go away and just putting more troops in there increases the problem. If NZ wants to look good on world stage, stand up and say “This is wrong and this is not working”. It would be better to fund some moderate muslims to go in and negotiate – at least get ideas of what can end the violence.

    I don’t want to be worried every time I walk into a mall or go on a bus, there might be a car bomb or suicide bomber because John Key wanted to get some cushy job and play golf with Obama. The club is on there way out, starting with Abbott.

    Once the oil runs out, USA will be out of there leaving what, a dangerous 12th century branch of Islam that will wipe out the US appointed government immediately and then start spreading.

    The US should give up the oil now, get some alternative energy going in the USA ,and start the transition from occupation in Iraq now, not in another 10 years where the world is not going to be looking the same from a terrorism point of view.

    Time to step up.

    • rawshark-yeshe 5.1

      super post. And now I have this imagery of Key rushing to a dictionary to find out the meaning of the word “moral”.

  6. Chooky 6

    David Lange , despite making political mistakes, was a brilliant wit because he had the guts to be truthful!….and make us laugh with it…even at his own expense

    It takes guts to be transparent and NOT hide the truth…John key does NOT have the guts to be democratic ( putting the vote to parliament to send off NZ troops) or truthful…quite the opposite ….John key and the Nactional party are actively working to hide the truth


    • Exactly Chook. Key is a gutless wonder, before the election he failed to front up to NZ about his plans to jump in bed with the US military, or about the Sabin cover-up, or to admit that Donghua Liu’s scandals were all fiction. He is a typical bully full of bluster, and he can’t handle the truth because he doesn’t know wtf it is.

    • … and he’s too scared to put a conscience vote to Parliament.

      To me this is the worst travesty of democracy. We face no existential threat, yet Key rushes NZ off to war without even a nod to the will of the people. This is a decision of utmost gravity, yet our PM merrily jokes about being in a club, and then loses his rag in a fascist style rant. This should be a rational and considered move of last resort, not a fucken macho display of jingoism.

      What a lying piece of crap is our PM.

  7. Sable 7

    Rogernomics David Lange? You might have been wise to have chosen a better person to hold up as an example of political piety. In my opinion and that of a lot of left voters Labour are the worthless neo con party they are today in large part because of him.

    • really..?..not douglas/prebble/goff and cohorts..?

      ..and didn’t he pull the plug on their antics/masterplan..?

      ..but i agree that modern labour suck arse…

      ..and seem to have learnt nothing from their past-mistakes..

      (cf..labour ’14 election-policies..drill/mine/spy/fuck-the-poor!..)

      • jenny kirk 7.1.1

        “..and didn’t he pull the plug on their antics/masterplan…?”

        Yes, he did Phil Ure, and Sable, and that took guts too !

      • Murray Rawshark 7.1.2

        In what year did the neoliberal master plan begun by Douglas have the plug pulled on it? I can only see it proceeding at varying speeds for the last 30 years.

        • phillip ure

          i did note that:..

          “….but i agree that modern labour suck arse…”

          ..but surely you have heard the moans from the right of the ‘job half-done’..?

          ..and ‘if only lange hadn’t called for ‘the cup of tea’..?

          ..but in general i agree the last thirty yrs have been just a continuation of all of that…

          • Murray Rawshark

            Lange put a resistor in the power cable and turned the current down a bit. That’s not the same as pulling the plug.

            By the way, I liked him much more when he was a lawyer, although he was never at the level of Peter Williams. He also helped the Polynesian Panthers quite a bit.

  8. Pasupial 8

    Sending the children of the citizens of the country you supposedly represent to die for your Club (while removing the ability of coroners to investigate any inconvenient deaths) does not take guts. This is gutsy:

    Harmeet Singh Sooden is travelling to Iraq in the coming weeks to work with Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) on a short-term assignment.

    Mr Sooden is deeply concerned about the Government’s decision to deploy the NZDF to Iraq. He believes the Government has not provided NZers with an adequate justification for an NZDF presence in Iraq…

    Mr Sooden says, “NZers need to be told why the Government is not pursuing alternatives like pushing for a UN Security Council resolution to declare ISIS a ‘threat to peace and security’.”

    Mr Sooden says many other questions remain unanswered in detail: “What impact is the deployment likely to have on the security of NZers here and abroad, for example aid workers? What military support role are NZ intelligence services playing in the ISIS conflict? What is the human rights record of the army units we will be training? Will journalists be permitted to observe the NZDF’s activities in Iraq?”…

    In 2005, while participating in an international CPT delegation, Mr Sooden and three colleagues were kidnapped in Baghdad and held for almost four months. Mr Sooden says the rise of ISIS reminds him of his own ordeal: “Seeing the hostages in orange jumpsuits brings back memories of Tom.” Tom Fox, one of the three held with Mr Sooden, was executed on 9 March 2006. Mr Sooden and the remaining hostages, Canadian James Loney and Briton Norman Kember, were freed two weeks later. According to the US Government, indications are that al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), the direct forerunner of ISIS, was responsible for the CPT kidnapping.


  9. Bastables 9

    Under Gut’s key the Government is actually discussing the ability to whitewash soldiers deaths http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/66795585/secret-death-panel-planned Real guts to legalise lying.

  10. saveNZ 10

    David Lange is a hero because of his Nuclear Free NZ stance. John F Kennedy is a hero because of his 1963, “A Strategy of Peace,” a rallying cry for an end to the nuclear arms race with the Soviets and a beginning of a new era of peace with all nations.

    With the specter of the Cuban Missile Crisis still hanging heavy over the nation, Kennedy’s speech brought hope that a real and lasting peace could be achieved. During the nearly 27-minute address, Kennedy called for the development of a test ban treaty, pledging that the United States would suspend nuclear tests in the atmosphere so long as other nations did the same. Kennedy also encouraged a respect and understanding of the Soviet Union, unfathomable just months before the speech. It was a watershed moment in the history of U.S.-Soviet relations.

    Kennedy’s speech, written by long-time advisor Ted Sorensen, was unprecedented in its dovish pursuit of peace. Few presidents before him ever spoke so artfully and passionately about the need to work toward unequivocal amity.

    This year, we celebrate the 50th anniversary of Kennedy’s achievement and the profound impact it had on American University and the wider world. “A Strategy of Peace” is remembered as one of the president’s finest and one of the most inspiring commencement addresses ever delivered. Kennedy’s words ring as true today as they did 50 years ago as we continue building peace for all time.


    We can still learn a lot from these past great leaders.

    John Key is now referred to as Nixon. Who is Little going to be compared to?

    • rawshark-yeshe 10.1

      I think even himself Nixon would be insulted by Key’s behaviours.

    • les 10.2

      JFK was hellbent on assassinating Castro.Assassination of troublesome world leaders a common policy of post WW2 presidents and U.K P.M’s…democratically elected or not.The Congo,Guatemala, etc,etc.

  11. ropata 11

    Helen Clark showed her steel when refusing to join Bush’s 2003 debacle in Iraq

  12. ropata 12

    Key has the “guts” to be a smart arse in Parliament, but does not have the balls to stand up for the people of New Zealand. He is working for the CIA NSA and MPAA

  13. The more real opposition there is to Key siging us up to one side of a Religious/Resources War the higher the likelihood of a staged/permitted/encouraged ‘lone wolf’ attack in NZ. We are already at war with the 1% and they with us.

  14. Aaron 14

    John Key is a Coward, plain and simple. Only a coward would send other people off to war and pretend it took guts for him to do it.

  15. NZ do not have Politicians of the calibre of Kirk or Lange at the moment, we can only hope that in the future a person will surface and make us the proud nation we once were.

    It take real leadership, something Key is simply not capable of.
    He is a sad excuse in fact.

  16. North 16

    It’s the biggest comedy in the world to hear gauche toady Key’s induced frenzied raving about having guts. In the public bar / rugby clubrooms persona he so embarrassingly affects. What’s the bet the punk won’t remember a thing when the body bags arrive. There’ll be a baseball game somewhere east coast US. This ain’t a man. This is a punk.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1

      If the corpses number between three and seven he will use them for a ‘dignified’, ‘solemn’ photo-opportunity, and prosecute anyone who reveals the cause of death.

    • les 16.2

      so right! as someone said he went for the ‘Oscar’!The world is a ghetto.

  17. Terrance 17

    At first I liked Lange, but after he bowed to the pressure to give the trade of our dairy products a higher degree of importance, than the moral righteousness of seeing those responsible for an act of war on New Zealand soil were duly punished, I lost any respect I had for him.

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    On September 27, School Strike 4 Climate will be striking for a future to pressure the government for meaningful climate action. This time, they've asked adults to join them. And now, Lincoln University and Victoria University of Wellington have signed on:Victoria University of Wellington has joined Lincoln University in endorsing ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Another constitutional outrage
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
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  • Ending dairy in Canterbury
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Is National the party of climate arson?
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Experts warn Harold the Giraffe “well past” typical giraffe life expectancy, may not have long
    Dum-de-doo. Children across New Zealand have known him for generations as the lovable giraffe who tells them to exercise, hydrate and not to shove lit cigarettes up their nostrils. But a world renowned giraffe expert says we shouldn’t be getting attached to Life Education’s Harold the Giraffe, as he is ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • August ’19 – NZ blogs sitemeter ranking
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    2 weeks ago
  • Bye, bye to the collusion lie
    Sums it up, really. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Opinion: Treat your car by buying extra petrol to snack on while you aren’t driving
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    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago

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