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Does New Zealand need more immigration?

Written By: - Date published: 9:49 am, April 18th, 2018 - 186 comments
Categories: capitalism, Economy, immigration - Tags:

The Australian Federal Treasury has put out a think piece that has come out strongly in support of the government policy of adding 190,000 non-humanitarian migrants a year with a focus on taking skilled workers. They say that level of immigration boosted economic growth, reduced the adverse effects of an ageing population, and lifted aggregate demand through consumption and investment.

I’m not sure where populists who want to really limit immigration go after this.

Bloomberg has previously called this level of immigration “the secret to Australia avoiding a recession.”

Reading through the Australian Treasury report, the parallels with New Zealand are eerily familiar.

Plenty will argue that New Zealand’s social services are too strained as it is to cope with more.

Others may point to New Zealand’s tens of thousand of unbuilt houses, strong economy, low headline unemployment, skills shortages, low capital base, and tolerant and diversified society.

There will be an argument about whether sustained inwards immigration got us through the post-GFC recession, earthquake rebuilds, and dairy price downturn.

Personally, the last two decades of immigration have overall remade this country, for good, and forever.

186 comments on “Does New Zealand need more immigration?”

  1. millsy 2

    No. If the immigration taps were turned off overnight, unemployment will probably fall to zero and wages would shoot up. Burgeious business owners will soon realize that having a shoflifting conviction as a teenager or having a few cones once a month on a Saturday night donesnt make one unfit for milking cows or waiting tables.

  2. Stuart Munro 3

    It seems to have benefitted the self-styled elites. The lower and middle demographics have born the costs. Though statistics and lax enforcement have hidden some of them, it’s immediately evident that for example, the estimated 11 000 overstayers are competing for work and accommodation and similar resources with our most vulnerable.

    It’s for producing nonsense like this that Treasury is rightly reviled.

  3. nukefacts 4

    No.

    There’s almost a fetish about this issue in NZ e.g. see MBIE’s web site practically begging employers to bring in ‘skilled’ workers from overseas. And for reference, here’s their top four skilled worker categories:

    Chef
    Registered Nurse (Aged Care)
    Retail Manager (General)
    Cafe or Restaurant Manager

    and get this, the Labourer category constituted 17.6% of work visa applications in the past year.

    Anyone who dares challenge the orthodoxy of more immigration is instantly labelled a racist by the left! Ridiculous.

    Can’t these fools see that it’s just a scam to increase the National party vote, line the pockets of National politicians for board memberships of e.g. Chinese banks, and drive down wages by importing third world wage rates e.g. Ritchies can’t hire locals to drive buses because their rates are so low anyone local with a brain won’t take the job as they won’t be able to survive, so instead Ritchies lobby the government to include bus driver to become a skilled labour category. Keep in mind it only takes 6-8 weeks to become trained to be a bus driver. Hardly skilled.

    For a dose of reality on this issue I suggest the article’s author read some of this:

    https://croakingcassandra.com/2018/03/29/the-failed-economic-strategy-goes-on/

    and this:

    https://croakingcassandra.com/2018/03/31/work-visa-numbers-soar/

    In short, the ideology of our idiot-elite political class to force more immigration on NZ has not done anything for improving our economy. And we can all see the unintended impacts of this around us – clogged streets, massive housing shortage, massively overstrained health system, and more and more tory voters. The last thing we need.

    • dukeofurl 4.1

      The Australian numbers seem very flimsy, the economic advantages are firstly strched out over a number of years ( makes it into the ‘billions of $’) and then considering the overall size of the economy isnt even in margin of error of working out what that number is ( $1.2 TRILLION)

      In an economy of $1200 billion per year they can measure something like $1 billion per year ?

      Anyway its not the numbers in immigration of all kinds will go down to zero , just maybe 60% of what its is currently. ( 190K)
      Thats the same circumstance being talked about in NZ.

    • savenz 4.2

      Also might explain all this crashed by trucks and buses and the rate of pedestrian’s being run over.. you know the ‘skilled’ driver shortage needed at $16.50 p/h.

      A quarter of the road toll involves trucks, go figure.

      nothing to do with
      https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/concerns-truck-licences-up-sale-probe-into-driver-licencing-scandal-widens

      Who knew that you could get skilled people below the living wage – unfortunately it’s showing in all our bad traffic statistics, low wages and tax payers subsiding bad industry practises.

    • savenz 4.3

      The other question is, if the Labourer category constituted 17.6%, how are the other people getting in, a whopping 82.4% are not labour migrants.

      To give an example, I know somehow who came in as a student, got on Tinder, befriended a lonely person who was so obese they were literally house bound and needed a handful of medication daily from anti depressants to type 2 diabetes, they then had a baby together, and then this helped the migrants application. Apparently they were going to deport the student who was now working a minimum wage job, but didn’t because of the baby.

      Now the paperwork is through, the relationship conveniently ‘broke up’ and the Kiwi is on a domestic benefit as clearly the wages were not enough to support a family and the migrant has residency, that they would never have got, without the relationship and the baby at the time.

    • KJT 4.4

      “Skilled immigrants” has been used by NZ companies to avoid paying for training, for decades.
      In my own trades no new trainees have been taken on, by any company I worked for, in thirty years.
      Thousands of entry positions lost to young New Zealanders, in that time. The lack of “skilled workers”is self inflicted.
      Could have been apprentices from Northland, building Christchurch.

      • joe90 4.4.1

        Was NZ industry ever serious about training large numbers?.

        Larger cities and government departments like the NZED, MOW and the P&T turned out hundreds of trades people every year and even the smallest local bodies with their in-house labour trained mechanics, plumbers, chippies, painters and paperhangers, electricians, etc.

        Industry scooped them up but when the Douglas reforms turned the tap off, they struggled on with little intent of training anyone. And now those tradies are retiring or moving on and up, they’re crying immigration.

        • tracey 4.4.1.1

          They prefer to lobby govt for immigration and more tertiary courses matched to their jobs… corporate training subsidies iow

          • KJT 4.4.1.1.1

            If our businesses and managers had to actually be efficient, manage well and invest capital in plant. Instead of being able to make more money by screwing workers, and accessing hidden subsidies like tax payer funded training, immigration and working for families.
            New Zealand would be much better off.
            Our inefficient employers, and managers, have been mollycoddled by Government for way too long.

            On the immigration subject again. Just heard another top job in my area of expertise has been taken by an immigrant. Despite several extremely skilled, experienced, local applicants.

  4. OnceWasTIm 5

    1. No, at least not at the moment
    2. New Zealand is not Australia (thank Christ)
    3. Now that we’ve brought in immigrants in the way we have – i.e. fostering shit education, work visas and various scams, the solution is NOT in penalising the victims of all this …..it IS to change the the immigration system itself.

  5. Enough is Enough 6

    Immigration is a fantastic thing.

    The vibrancy of New Zealand’s multi-cultural population is one of the greatest things about this place. The flavours, colours, culture skills and diversity that has come from immigrants over the past 30 years is mazing and long may it continue.

    Don’t confuse immigration with the failure of successive central and local governments to plan for our growing population

    • savenz 6.1

      Not only do they is there the failure of successive central and local governments to plan for their selfish growth strategy for low wage business and billionaire passive investors (aka Peter Thiel types) but also their failure to plan whose going to pay for it.

      How can people on local rates afford to pay billions and billions in upgrade costs as well as the profits to Peter Thiel types and the 2 billion in subsidies to the people who need tax payer top ups for their low wages that they pay the incoming migrants because they can’t source them in NZ.

      Then they cut benefits or make them difficult to obtain because it’s the easiest way to save money as well as hiding the strategy by saying 1 hour a week is a person employed.

      It’s all money going out in NZ, not money going into our country.

      Those that say how great migration is for a country often look at places like USA post war. That worked then because it was completely different conditions.

      The difference between 1955 and 2018 is that today the migrants is that there are plenty of cheap flights, tax havens and a million ways to work overseas and pay little to zero taxes here, while being a massive drain on our exisiting tax payers with kids being born, elderly parents needing to be looked after and the worker being long gone, or actually on $18 p/h and needing tax payers top ups.

      Not exactly sustainable and the sort of economic benefit that like the earthquakes in Christchurch look good on paper and get the type of economists that failed to predict the global financial crisis excited, not so good when you go to pay for the social costs of the practise as evidence in our declining levels of living standards through the OECD.

    • OncewasTim 6.2

      Agreed.
      And also don’t think it OK that because a number of immigrants who’ve been subjected to NZ immigration policy that’s allowed exploitation in its many forms are less entitled to some form of redress than their Koiwoi counterparts.
      That’ a BIG reason we don’t get anywhere in terms of wages and conditions or any other measurement.
      Many seem to have succumbed to the old divide and rule mechanism.

    • andrew murray 6.3

      @Enough is Enough.

      While I can’t lay my hands on this statement now, I read it while completing an MA in Sociology some years ago.
      It was by Slavoj Zizek and was to the effect that, immigration is the greatest tool of the capitalist elite.
      This is how we need to view current immigration purposes and the identity politics that protect them from challenge. I don’t mean this as an affront to you but your delight in a colourful diversity is a nonsense when it’s purpose is lower wage costs and to deprive our own young people of a future.
      There is a far bigger far more nuanced strategy at play throughout the west and we aren’t intended to be on the winning side.

    • dukeofurl 6.4

      “The flavours, colours, culture skills and diversity …”

      So you see migrants as a human zoo to be marvelled and amazed at rather than real people who want a better life and bring skills we need?

      The National geographic and Eurocentric view of the world.

      • Enough is Enough 6.4.1

        You have made a big assumption there that I am of European descent.

        I see migrant as a human zoo?? What a bizarre conclusion.

        Your criticism of me referencing skills is even more bat shit crazy when you look at the last 5 words or your second sentence.

        No I see immigrants as bringing diversity to what was previously a very Eurocentric society. I am sorry that you can’t embrace that

        • ropata 6.4.1.1

          I see it as fracturing a formerly cohesive society into competing ethnic groups and fostering tribalism. There are limits to diversity. Especially when vast numbers arrive from an alien culture and have little chance to integrate because it’s easier to stick with your own kind. Hence we have a plague of horrible driving, mindless stripping of seafood resources, exploitation of employees, and a breakdown of trust.

          Trust is a really big deal for building a successful nation. We used to be able to trust our builders. It used to be an insult to ask a tradesman to quote a price for his work – it was assumed he would work to time and materials and give you a fair deal at the end. We used to leave our doors unlocked and let our kids walk to school.

          Fuck this endless growth bullshit.

          • Wei 6.4.1.1.1

            Hence we have a plague of horrible driving, mindless stripping of seafood resources, exploitation of employees, and a breakdown of trust.

            ‘Horrible driving’? –Asians, who you are obviously referring are not overrepresented in driving that causes death or injury –in fact are vastly underrepresented —look at the MOT stats.

            “mindless stripping of seafood resources”? Where’s your evidence that immigrants (Asians that is) are more responsible for this than anyone else?

            “Exploitation of employees” –a lot of this is carried out by unscrupulous kiwi employers in the horticultural or dairy industry. Definitely need stringent laws here. But don’t blame the exploited migrants. Blame the employers, and also the unjust world economic system that forces people to move to strange countries and endure racist hostility to make ends emet

            “A breakdown of trust” ???? On whose part? All studies show that Asians are that part of the population with the lowest representation in almost every single crime category one can imagine, the exception being crimes related to gambling.

            “We used to leave our doors unlocked and let our kids walk to school. “ What the fuck has that got to do with migration. Never heard of an Asian migrant assaulting a local born kiwi kid on his or her way to school. On the other hand a lot of Asian migrants have been bashed by local born kiwis.

            • ropata 6.4.1.1.1.1

              I was talking in generalities, but you must have a guilty conscience because you brought Asians into the mix there.

              • Wei

                Of course you are thinking of Asians.

                You wouldn’t give a shit if they were white.

                Biggest immigration boom in NZ was post war with heaps of English and Europeans coming here, often on assisted passage.

                Fuck you are one dumb piece of shit (btw moderator – go through the threads —he started calling me names first)

                • ropata

                  You have zero appreciation for what NZers have lost due to 35 years of shockingly irresponsible neoliberal growth dogma.

                  A safer land, where children were free to cycle or walk anywhere. Where you could go fishing and usually catch something decent. Where you could swim in clean rivers. Where we didn’t have hordes of campervans crapping on our loveliest tourist spots. Where you could work on minimum wages and buy a house and start a family.

                  All gone because of greed. And people like you think it’s racist to want a future like that for our kids. Thanks for nothing.

                • KJT

                  Didn’t like the class warfare and snobbery they bought with them, either.

                  • Wei

                    You are referring to the English and Boer migrants?

                    • KJT

                      Back then, English, not Boers. We owe our disfunctional industrial relations, onboth sides, to them. Yes. But I don’t like the modern Chinese attitude to fairness , wealth, and social welfare either. Though the Chinese solution to excess intergenerational wealth in recent times was successful, it was rather drastic.

                      Maori can tell you the effects of having your culture swamped by excessive immigration from another culture. As can Southern China.

                    • tracey

                      Well said KJT

      • Wei 6.4.2

        “The flavours, colours, culture skills and diversity …”

        No doubt that NZ has improved because of diversity. That is the point. What’s wrong with making that point?

        • ropata 6.4.2.1

          Shame that nobody thought about their infrastructure demands, healthcare, education, extra police, or environmental impact. All these diversity advocates are really after is $$$

      • savenz 6.4.3

        +1 dukeofurl

        Often the ‘diversity’ apologists have no idea of the caste system in India, or female infanticide in China, or there is no welfare system there, it’s absolute competition and survival of the fittest. Possible why a huge majority vote National once coming to NZ.

    • Janet 6.5

      When you mix all the colours on a palette together you get grey.
      I rather see them in full colour in their own countries thank you.
      I choose maintaining the quality of life and living in NZ over chasing the mirage of wealth.
      I prefer we leave plenty of space in our country for our own generations to come.

      • Wei 6.5.1

        I choose maintaining the quality of life and living in NZ over chasing the mirage of wealth.

        There are around 1 million Kiwis (proportionately speaking more than any other group of people in the world) living overseas ‘chasing the mirage of wealth’

        • Stuart Munro 6.5.1.1

          In many cases because of the destruction of their legitimate paths to success in their own country.

          • Wei 6.5.1.1.1

            Provide an example

            • ropata 6.5.1.1.1.1

              1 million examples. Stagnant wages, fewer jobs, skyrocketing housing and other living costs. And until recently a systemic denial of the problems facing the poor of NZ, and inequality getting worse.

            • Stuart Munro 6.5.1.1.1.2

              900 foreign workers a year = no career paths in the fishing industry.

        • savenz 6.5.1.2

          There are around 1 million Kiwis (proportionately speaking more than any other group of people in the world) living overseas…

          it’s hard to pay back that student loan when some of us had it compounding daily at 11% and the average wage here is $20p/h.

          But many Kiwis will come back one day, so they are not migrating they are chasing legitimate work overseas and will not be a burden on that country they work in by retiring there. (plus they will be paying super there, anyway in most cases).

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury 6.5.1.2.1

            Compounding daily at 11%?

            I think you need back yet another of your wild assertions up with a shred of evidence

            • savenz 6.5.1.2.1.1

              That was what we were charged in the 1990’s. Spent 5 years at uni and my student loan had doubled in the first year I was able to work.

              The Labour government ‘eventually’ decided that you did not get charged interest while studying (and won the election that year) but in the early 1990’s that was what they did, compounding daily interest. Interest rates were very high on student loans (market forces), not the 5% they are today.

              • savenz

                From 1999 Student loan documents

                • Tertiary education policy since 1990 has required students as private beneficiaries to pay more of the costs of their education. Weighted average university fees increased 961% over 1990 ñ 1995 (in 1999 dollars).

                • In 1998/99 about half (49.7%) of tertiary students had student loans, up from 39.6% in 1994.

                • The interest rate charged for New Zealand student loans is considerably higher than in other income-contingent student loan schemes overseas, but comparable to mortgage-type loan schemes.

                https://www.parliament.nz/resource/0000021263

  6. Cinny 7

    NO. Unless they are refugees or to employ in sectors where there are skill shortages etc

    What we do need is more free tertiary education, to skill the current population.

    We need to slow things down until our current infrastructure and housing are sorted. We currently can’t sustain so many people coming into NZ.

    I love the diversity of our nation, we just need some time to catch up.

  7. Tamati Tautuhi 8

    We need more housing, hospitals, schools and infrastructure before we bring in more noodle eaters and curry sandwich consumers ?

    • ropata 8.1

      Sorry bro. NZ is for sale to the global elites. Most Kiwis seem to be OK with that.

      https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/05/hedge-city-vancouver-chinese-foreign-capital/

      • savenz 8.1.1

        Agree with most of your points Ropata, apart from disagree with

        “NZ is for sale to the global elites. Most Kiwis seem to be OK with that’

        I think Kiwis are being ignored and don’t want NZ to become run by a global elite.

        Similar to all the companies operating together under the Cambridge Analytica umbrella (currently under investigation in particular for Brexit result and electoral overspending and fraud) NZ now has a similar thing happening where all media is effectively being engineered to the same tune such as immigration is great, banning foreign buyers is bad, we need all these low paid migrants because Kiwi workers are hopeless losers, etc, etc. Our media is run by overseas interests, and the balance between advertorials and advertising has been absent for years.

        Auckland council and all their COO’s have similar strategy, they all sing from the same tune while pretending to be independent. That is also why we have such a massive problem with transport and planning in Auckland, and more money to them is not going to solve anything because it’s the organisations themselves full of fiefdoms and people out of control, that is the issue.

        Like Fletchers, management have lost control at the Auckland council and AT and don’t have a clue what is going on and any reports are worthless because it’s being run in ‘ministry of truth’ style, propped up by private lawyers at the trough to keep any bad news at bay.

    • Wei 8.2

      And we also don’t need any more white south African crackers

      Hopefully we will see a massacre of those racist Boers

      If that does happen I hope the NZ navy machine guns them in the water before they get their white asses to the North Shore – -how about it eh????

    • Wei 8.3

      btw in Mt Roskill near where I work, the local noodle houses seem to be crammed with Pakeha and Maori customers slurping their noodles and eating fried rice as much as Chinese.

      Curry sandwich? Never heard of that. Where can I get one?

      • ropata 8.3.1

        At least they are legal citizens unlike a large swathe of new arrivals who snuck in the back door by student visa scams or pretending to start a business. Or even worse those who arrived with suitcases of cash and are now parasitical landlords or communist spies in the National party caucus.

  8. savenz 9

    Also funny how the Mycoplasma bovis originated in the South Island. Maybe getting so many cheap overseas workers has it’s down falls for the economy with the spread of disease as workers go backwards and forwards between countries with all the bio security issues that involves? No mention of how that disease and others are suddenly appearing in isolated locations.

    • joe90 9.1

      No mention of how that disease and others are suddenly appearing in isolated locations.

      The likely culprits are imported bull semen and piss poor compliance with the NAIT scheme.

      But hey, those migrant farm workers are mostly brown, so blame them.

      /

      • savenz 9.1.1

        Whether it is imported bull semen or contamination from farm workers or something else, it surely should be investigated as the taxpayers are paying 60 million in compensation to the farmers no question’s asked and MSM doesn’t bother to find out where it came from and a bit of a blank area in the news. Surely the first thing is to warn of the outbreak and find out where it came from to stop the spread!

        Clearly in terms of economy NZ is not learning much from the PSA bacteria costing $800 million,

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/08/class-action-lawsuit-over-kiwifruit-psa-outbreak.html

        • joe90 9.1.1.1

          compensation to the farmers no question’s asked

          Compensation is mandated.

          https://www.mpi.govt.nz/law-and-policy/legal-overviews/biosecurity/biosecurity-act-compensation/

        • Bewildered 9.1.1.2

          “Whether it is imported bull semen or contamination from farm workers “

          What are these farm workers doing with our cows ?

        • Bewildered 9.1.1.3

          “Whether it is imported bull semen or contamination from farm workers “

          What are these farm workers doing with our cows ?

        • OnceWasTIm 9.1.1.4

          you’ll probably not get to see this comment @savenz, because tomorrow’s open mike is yesterday’s fish n chup wrapper, however
          the irony is that those that saved us from the potential devastation of the PSA bacteria (actually I thought it was a virus) were predominantly bloody immigrants.

          • savenz 9.1.1.4.1

            Were any of them a

            Chef
            Registered Nurse (Aged Care)
            Retail Manager (General)
            Cafe or Restaurant Manager

            (the top 4 ‘skilled’ categories of migrants)

            I’m not against proper ‘skilled’ migrants just the scams of paying $20k for a job in a restaurant to get residency and taking away opportunity to give the many students with massive student loans a chance to get work and compete against other business owners who use non exploited labour.

            • OncewasTim 9.1.1.4.1.1

              I’m in agreement with you re the scams et al.
              And that’s why the only way things will get solved is if we target the perpetrators of scams, shoddy education courses and buying residency, etc rather than further punishing the victims of it all.
              The last nine years has turned immigration into a business-a lucrative one for the arseholes of this world.
              And it’s been at the expense of workers, education standards,etc. AND the victims of scams enabled by the system we’ve implemented.
              Time to unpick it all.
              And not by way of implenting some Peter Dutton reality TV type butch dawn raid Border Force

    • Keepcalmcarryon 9.2

      Actually savenz, this recent article was veeeery interesting although still heavy on hearsay, poor choice of headlines also, not sure it’s actual vets being blamed or companies importing animal products:
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/102822962/vet-companies-importing-illegal-drugs-likely-source-of-mycoplasma
      Free importation market and poor biosecurity all the same.

      it’s rumoured that Southland is actual ground zero, not Otago/canty which further implies MPI might have a fair idea on what has occurred.
      Certainly hope so. Everyone is unanimous in wanting the book chucked at the culprit/s

  9. Siobhan 10

    “There will be an argument about whether sustained inwards immigration got us through the post-GFC recession, earthquake rebuilds, and dairy price downturn”

    ……and whether ‘sustained inwards migration’ helped keep wages down, rents up and increased job insecurity…

    Of course none of this is the fault of the immigrants, its all down to the desire to exploit with no shame or sense of decency and fairness that apparently drives our so called economy these days…

    • OncewasTim 10.1

      +100
      See above also.
      The situation for many immigrants (overstayers included) is dire, and there quite a few I know who’d LOVE to ‘self deport’ if only they could save enough for the airfare and recoup the money they’ve been conned into spending on expensive shitty education.
      Again, target the exploiters, not the victims and we’ll soon find immigration levels reducing

  10. McFlock 11

    190k/20mill is well under our current immigration rate of 70k/4.5mill (0.95% vs 1.5%). Literally every single number ther except the 190k is from rough memory, but the proportions shouldn’t be too far off.

    But yeah, long term we’ll need substantial immigration to offset the aging population.

    Personally, I’d take more refugees and asylum seekers than voluntary migrants.

    My concern with the “we don’t have the infrastructure” argument is that as soon as we take the pressure off the infrastructure, the pressure to develop it in the short term also goes off. So we end up with lower immigration and infrastructure that ages as quickly as our population.

    • Cemetery Jones 11.1

      Hard to say. Even leaving the infrastructure issue aside, given the trend both here and in the rest of the developed world with youth unemployment, increase of automation, etc. I’d wonder whether we do actually need substantially more or just more well targeted to skill necessities.

      • McFlock 11.1.1

        The real issue over the next thirty years is whether we take the richer lifeboaters or people in immediate need.

        • Cemetery Jones 11.1.1.1

          What would your parameters be for immediate need?

          • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1

            Well, my figuring would be the nabobs and mandarins in ministries should calculate how many we can handle in relation to infrastructure development, and prioritise say 66% to be refugees.

            • Cemetery Jones 11.1.1.1.1.1

              I’d be thinking more like 40% at most, but overall like the idea. And I guess that could be part of their brief, looking at for example what the load might be on schools with ESL teaching requirements etc. That itself could prove to be an expanding field within the conventional education system which would be good for employment.

              • Stuart Munro

                I’d like to see an aid-like carve out for some of our Pacific neighbours too. They need some support, and other countries are not generous to them.

                • Cemetery Jones

                  Yes, that could be a good idea – there’s a real risk of the whole region being sucked into the wake of US-China geopolitics.

                • savenz

                  Since our Pacific neighbours are less dense, why don’t they offer their ‘generosity’ and take more people. If that is the argument you are taking.

                  Funny enough, I’m pretty sure migrants are less keen on going there.

                  The reality is, that people like to live in NZ on low wages because it is a welfare state and unlike many other countries in the world we have free health care and superannuation and the other taxpayers top you up.

                  Sadly those are not really sustainable if we get a lot of people coming to this country on $16.50 p/h with aged parents needing support.

                  Or give away passports to Peter Thiel types who buy up land and then take off after making millions in a taxpayer helped ‘sweetheart deal’ for a one off investment and their application promises not kept.

                  But hey, who needs the practical pointed out.

              • McFlock

                I’m not too worried about the percentage – I just think that people in more serious need due to war or climate change should get preference over middleclass flight.

                Bear in mind that lots of refugees bring their own skillsets – not just new foods, but also doctors, professors, people with different perspectives on solving architectural problems, etc.

                The real strength immigration brings is diversity in perspective, knowledge, and approach.

                • Cemetery Jones

                  In migratory contexts, ‘middle class flight’ is usually a construct peddled by middle class socialists who incorrectly believe themselves to be middle class social democrats. I say that in the spirit of Orwell’s observation that these people tend not to be attracted to socialism and socialist rhetoric out of a love of the poor, but out of a hatred of the rich. Not that I don’t understand, I’ve certainly been there in my younger days, and I still have my moments now and then.

                  Rich people like Peter Thiel often give me those moments. Rich people like Thiel also provide some confirmation bias in this regard, because they tend to engage in flight *from* things in their migratory behaviour; his NZ citizenship is a prepper’s insurance policy rather than the lifestyle consideration he presented it as. It’s a luxury purchase. And it adds nothing to us, and should not be upheld. Thiel and James Cameron, I would argue, obtained their citizenship under false pretences, and should be stripped of it.

                  Middle class migration on the other hand tends to be a *movement towards* opportunity rather than *flight from* conditions. The question is, are the opportunities they seek beneficial to us? If they’re here to buy houses with superior overseas incomes and savings, and support this by competing with our skilled graduates in the job market using their superior overseas experience, then I’d want that experience to be in building or creating something we can’t currently build or create, rather than just find out we’ve got another British marketing executive or brand manager among our ranks, or that another Chinese housing investor has dropped National some sweet bank in exchange for the ability to buy a couple houses as an ‘investor plus’ or whatever.

                  • McFlock

                    Unless they’re middle class in, say, South Africa in the 1990s. Or some folks from the US in the 1980s (not super-rich, but worried about Reagan). Then they might well be using their modest wealth and privilege to run and leave the less fortunate.

                    So my perspective is to just take the less fortunate.

                    • Cemetery Jones

                      Yes, no doubt there have been some middle class migrants who might fit such pessimistic criteria. Probably not anything like the majority though. Plus, they’re more likely than the ‘less fortunate’ to be in a position to support themselves upon arrival, which makes it sensible to put the ratio slightly in their favour and ensure we have the means to help the ‘less fortunate’ become more fortunate. After all, there are many communities in the western world where refugees have been dumped off in the middle of nowhere, basically becoming the left’s Christmas puppies.

                    • McFlock

                      Very true.

                      My theory though is that as climate and geopolitical stresses increase we’ll be seeing a lot more migrants who can see the writing on the wall and get out early. They might bring capital, but they when we need builders rather than bank managers I’m not sure whether they’ll be any more useful than a sample of the equivalent number of refugees.

                      Refugees might involve more initial work, but we actually already have a structure for effective support already, and we can scale that up rapidly. Frankly I think we should be bringing in at least ten thousand a year, from all over. And if that has to come off the top of long term migrants, I’m not too worried.

                    • Cemetery Jones

                      Agree with that for certain, we’d need to seriously upscale services, accommodation, ESL, etc. to prevent making the same mistakes as Britain, Germany, Sweden, etc. have made.

    • nukefacts 11.2

      Interesting issue here- my understanding is we don’t have an ageing population at present, rather it’s more heavily weighted to 18-35 age group.

      This is a key thing in the immigration debate – there don’t seem to be very good, up to date, reliable stats about the movements of the different types of immigrants, study visas etc. E.g. MBIE drag their feet releasing migrant job classification data when it’s just administrative work nothing hard to do. And the previous government deliberately fudged statistics on overseas purchases of property in NZ to try and damp down negative sentiment.

      Most people are talking about immigration blind to these statistics.

  11. Lara 12

    NO and NO.

    When will it end? What population density would we like to end up at?

    Our birth rate is now just below replacement rate, and so our population is only now going to grow through immigration. We have the opportunity to control the population density here in NZ.

    But I don’t see any discussion here in NZ on population density. No discussion on the pressure on our remaining wild spaces, our forests, beaches, lakes, rivers.

    And if one wishes to bring up the topic one is quickly labelled racist.

    It’s not racist. It’s simple math. But then, most people have little understanding of math.

    http://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_population_energy.html

  12. andrew murray 13

    Sorry I meant to post this here not above…

    @Enough is Enough.

    While I can’t lay my hands on this statement now, I read it while completing an MA in Sociology some years ago.
    It was by Slavoj Zizek and was to the effect that, immigration is the greatest tool of the capitalist elite.
    This is how we need to view current immigration purposes and the identity politics that protect them from challenge. I don’t mean this as an affront to you but your delight in a colourful diversity is a nonsense when it’s purpose is lower wage costs and to deprive our own young people of a future.
    There is a far bigger far more nuanced strategy at play throughout the west and we aren’t intended to be on the winning side.

    • savenz 13.1

      If you find the article I’d be interested in reading it. Tired of all the cliche discourses, like diversity that the Idiot Intellectual class liberals love to tout because they have no other reason for their views which even a decade ago under Helen Clark there were immigration standards like a language test and basic provisioning of immigration criteria to stop our country going down the toilet.

  13. AsleepWhileWalking 14

    Hell no.

  14. ropata 15

    If the liberal Wellington twitterati cared to visit some of the suburbs of Auckland they might rethink their enlightened mass immigration policies.

    The Chinese flag is flown in the wealthy suburbs of the North Shore and East Auckland. This is economic colonisation (but politicians can’t resist the GDP juice).

    The future of native born Kiwis is being stolen from them as all the land and houses are snapped up by wealthy immigrants. The wages and conditions of poorer working Kiwis is driven down by a huge pool of imported labour who will work for peanuts and we have disturbingly frequent reports of exploitation by unscrupulous employers.

    The economic elites, professional classes, and established Boomers have made record capital gains through zero effort, while everyone else has borne the cost.

    Mass immigration is a Ponzi scheme by the selfish and short sighted (not to mention the long term ecological unsustainability of infinite growth).

    Immigration NZ has been doing a difficult job and all they get is abuse and accusations of racism. Immigration policies have been corrupted in this country. Screw immigration. It’s just another theft of our taonga by barbarians.

    • Keepcalmcarryon 15.1

      Well said

    • Wei 15.2

      The Chinese flag is flown in the wealthy suburbs of the North Shore and East Auckland

      What fucking bullshit – can you snap a picture and post it.

      Note that you choose to pick on the Chinese, but not racist white South African migration – go to Brown’s Bay on the North Shore, and see how the Boers have colonised that part of Auckland

      The reason why people migrate is 99% for economic reasons. They go to the parts of the world where their labour can get the biggest bang for their buck. That is why New Zealanders use to go to Australia, and in some cases still do.

      Different parts of the world will fetch a different amount for the same hour of labour. The main reason for this fundamental unfairness is Western imperialism.

      The fact is all New Zealanders have benefited economically from being part of the imperialist West for almost two centuries.

      The imperialist West pauperized Asia and Africa for centuries. That is why “imported labour will work for peanuts”. Because the Western elites fucked them up over in their own countries even more than they fucked things up over here.

      What working people everywhere should do is support the rise of non-Western countries who will fuck up the West, and hopefully destroy them, in the political sense, and the creation of a just world order that benefits all peoples of the world.

      • ropata 15.2.1

        You want NZers to immolate themselves. Piss off traitor

        • Wei 15.2.1.1

          So are New Zealanders, both Pakeha and Maori, or indeed of any other stripe, ‘immolating’ Australians because they move across the ditch in droves in search of a better life?

          • ropata 15.2.1.1.1

            No, Australia as we know it is in the process of destroying itself with unsustainable levels of immigration that benefits only the elites and wrecks society for everyone else. A demographic and ecological catastrophe is coming.

            • Wei 15.2.1.1.1.1

              So you agree that Kiwis moving to Australia are part of the problem and ‘wreck society for everyone else’?????

              I’m pretty sure that New Zealander’s are, proportionately speaking, more likely to move around the world in search of better economic opportunities than any other group of people in the world.

              At least 1 million New Zealanders live overseas!
              http://archive.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/mythbusters/1million-kiwis-live-overseas.aspx

              To be consistent you should advise all Kiwis to remain in New Zealand and never move offshore to make a better living on the global labour market, while shutting the doors to all from coming here.

              That would be a morally and logically coherent position, but one I think that would be unpalatable to most New Zealanders.

              • ropata

                Why are you anti Kiwi? What an egg.

                • Wei

                  What are you?

                  A dumb cunt incapable of a single shred of logical thought.

                  • ropata

                    I am pro NZ nationalism and think Australia should do the same. No inconsistency there. But for some reason you want to screw NZers both ways. Why is that? Big chip on your shoulder.

                    • Wei

                      WTF?

                      Fuck you are low IQ.

                      Read what I have written. Slowly.

                    • ropata

                      Yes I did read your extremely biased comment. So what, heaps of Kiwis live overseas. That doesn’t mean those of us here in Aotearoa have to open the borders and embrace the global communist revolution.

                  • Gabby

                    Are you sad that you couldn’t provoke an anti Chinese racist outburst Weisie? Never mind.

                    [Are you saddened that you just got banned for making inflammatory comments when so many others got away with it yesterday? Never mind.] – Bill

              • Pat

                unpalatable to many…whether most may be debatable, however the Aussie gov have made it pretty difficult for kiwis in oz the past decade or so….certainly harder than the NZ gov has made it for immigrants to NZ.

                A large(r) population and/or growth is no guarantee of economic success but certainly is a guarantee of resource depletion and environmental decline.

                • Wei

                  whether most may be debatable, however the Aussie gov have made it pretty difficult for kiwis in oz the past decade or so….certainly harder than the NZ gov has made it for immigrants to NZ.

                  How so? Can you provide a comparison

                  Too small a population means you get inbreds with no technology and no culture and no civilization. You need a certain number of folk to make any place interesting and provide for specialist services and a market for innovation.

                  • Pat

                    dont think theres much risk of inbreeding with approaching 5 million…though inbreeding can occur irrespective of population size.

                    as to interesting places we have plenty …. specialist services , maybe but then thats what trade is for.

                    What the world lacks is environment for life other than humans…we by an accident of history have maintained more than most…why fuck it up?

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Gosh – a veiled claim of genetic superiority – how enlightened.

    • Janet 15.3

      Agree Ropata , and let’s chop down the flags!

      • Wei 15.3.1

        You’ll have to find them first.
        Ropata should snap a pic, and link to it.

        Problem is he won’t be able to. He is a lying piece of shit.

        • ropata 15.3.1.1

          Eye witness to both Chinese and Saffer flags flying in North Shore suburbs. Not sure why such people are NZ citizens TBH

          • Wei 15.3.1.1.1

            Link to the Chinese flags please. Or are you full of shit?
            I’ll return in a couple of days to see the link.

            You throw in the South Africans to try and appear fair and balanced. Hahahahaa —after I called you out on it!

            • ropata 15.3.1.1.1.2

              South Africa isn’t currently engaged in a one sided campaign to buy the National Party and exploit the fair go culture of NZ, so there’s a difference

              • Wei

                “exploit the fair go culture of NZ”

                So white South Africans are into ‘fair go’, but not Chinese?

                BTW I’m not talking about South Africa – the government there is on the right track, and pro China, as is most of the devleoping world

                I’m talking about those racist white cracker Boers who can’t stand black rule and come here bringing their racist ways.

                Fuck you are a twit

                • ropata

                  Bill Liu, Jian Yang ring any bells? How about Judith Collins and her personal connections to Oravida? Are you just going to gloss over these deeply concerning influences over NZ politics, and indeed China’s growing influence over Pacific nations? This will not be good for us. Tibet is the model for China’s expansionist plans.

                  • Wei

                    Looks like most Pacific leaders welcome this Chinese influence:

                    https://www.radionz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/346124/china-gives-tonga-huge-aid-package

                    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/03/04/94130/samoan-pm-rejects-concerns-over-chinese-easy-money#

                    As do African countries:
                    https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/why-african-nations-welcome-china/

                    As former South African President Jacob Zuma said:

                    “Europe in particular, you are regarded as either a former subject or a second and third class kind of a person”. But “the relationship between China and African countries, particularly South Africa, is different”, he said.
                    “We relate as brothers and sisters to do business together, not because one is a poor cousin.”

                    A filthy Uncle Tom such as Ropata would prefer to be endlessly fucked up the ass by a white South African, and wants to perpetuate global white power forever.

                    • I’m surprised the moderators allowed the level of verbal violence displayed by Wei throughout this thread.

                      Also, the point(s) must be made about Chinese immigration – largely, as a generalisation, they make little attempt to integrate, and, one suspects, their bottom-line loyalty is always to their motherland.

                      Furthermore, before extolling the virtues of China, one should look at how the Tibetan and Uyghur peoples are enjoying the wonderful Peoples’ Republic!

                    • KJT

                      Chinese bribes to leaders, just like US ones, tend to make them friendly.

                    • Janet

                      Actually , having sailed through many of the Pacific Islands over the last few years I noticed – saw and heard – it’s the Chinese money they are after not the Chinese influence. Trouble is they are being slowly ensnared through this kind of Chinese “foreign aid” and end up with “white elephants” of roads and buildings, their fisheries annexed and of course a huge debt to the China.

                    • Gabby

                      Zoomie sounds like a bit of a racist doesn’t he Wei.

  15. I do appreciate, commenting on my post immediately above, that most of the abuse occurred in the small hours of the morning – and even moderators need some sleep!

    But the poster ‘Wei’ should raise red flags in future. [And not PRC ones!]

    • Wei 16.1

      they make little attempt to integrate

      In things that matter, like crime rates which are a tiny fraction of everyone elses, Asians integrate extremely well. Their kids will likely talk better english than those whose families have been here for generations.
      https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/praise-asian-migrants-how-crime-rates-compare-ck-140969

      Not sure what you mean by not integrating. Compared to say white South Africans who have created a huge Boer enclave on the North Shore? Or English migrants at the local soccer club.

      You can be sure of more of those racist boers coming over here, as the South African government is starting to move on reclaiming some land, and if this guy has his way

      https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/registertovoteeff-we-dont-care-about-white-feelings-malema-13588583

      Not sure about most people would think of a potential flood of white South Africans, but I’m sure white New Zealanders will be vastly more sympathetic to them than boatloads of black Africans or Sri Lankans or Chinese, even though Boers are the population least deserving on the entire planet

      Personally I hope the South African government seals off the borders and then carry out its land expropriation without compensation. Let those Boers scurry around like the rats they are with nowhere to go.

      • Keepcalmcarryon 16.1.1

        I believe you mean “speak better English.”

      • mary_a 16.1.2

        Wei (16.1) … I have been reading your comments today. While everyone has the right to voice their opinion respectfully and considerately, I find your comments to be extremely personal, aggressive, rude, racist and downright offensive, which is neither necessary nor acceptable to put your message across in a public forum such as this.

        To debate in the manner which you have done so here, IMHO automatically loses you your argument!

      • Cinny 16.1.3

        wei, I’ve been reading all your posts on this thread too.

        wei, you look desperate, arrogant and foolish.
        People will read your words and rather than getting them on your side, they’re just gonna think you are a wanker. JS

        Mods should ban your arse.

        [1. Don’t slap up bold just for the hell of it (removed) and 2. Don’t tell moderators what to do. 3. Read this moderating comment, and then pull your head all of the way in quick smart.] – Bill

      • Gabby 16.1.4

        No Wei, Jose.

  16. KJT 17

    Anyone who thinks 70 thousand new immigrants a year, and 110 thousand “student visa’s, has no effect on wages, work conditions, infrastructure, the environment and New Zealanders quality of life, is delusional!

    • Nic the NZer 17.1

      Unfortunately economics is just terrible at producing the evidence for or against this.
      I did get into a discussion with AOB where I could not find tangible evidence that immigration actually surpresses wages (as locals tend to find other occupations when immigrants take over the work).
      On the other hand there is a present post on croakingcassandra (Michael Reddel) where he concludes bus companies are presently bidding on contracts based on migrant wage rates for the drivers. The assumption is the bus driver wage rate in NZ is being bid down.

      There is also the issue of how MBIE should differentiate between skills shortages and low wage worker shortages. The fact wages are rising a little in some sector seems to be defacto taken as evidence the sector has a skills shortage. This is the wrong balance.

      • KJT 17.1.1

        All working people have seen it happening around them. Including me. Which is why we get angry with the “Academic LEFT’s support for excessive immigration.
        And the rights, use of it to keep wages low, and house prices and unemployment high. Supported by people on the left who are insulated from reality.

        • Bill 17.1.1.1

          Bosses, not migrants, keep wages low. How the economy is managed (or mismanaged) pumps up house prices and creates “flexibility” in the labour market.

        • savenz 17.1.1.2

          +1000 KJT

        • Keepcalmcarryon 17.1.1.3

          So true KJT. You don’t have to look far to see some shining examples.

  17. Sanctuary 18

    I am not entirely convinced that angry Chinese people with chips on their shoulder and who dislike us for our imperial past will make useful or welcome immigrants.

    • Keepcalmcarryon 18.1

      Or contributors on TS although I’m sure their stay will be brief.

    • veutoviper 18.2

      NZ born see this:

      The Housing Crisis.

      The mod response to last night has now come in response to 1 at today’s OM

      Open Mike 19/04/2018

      Deja vu considering the previous response(s) eg Round 1 – Nov 2017
      /the-yellow-peril/#comment-1415514 – at 34 with first comments starting at about 15
      /the-yellow-peril/#comment-1415548 – 34.3 result with mod ‘discussion’ following leading to
      /the-yellow-peril/#comment-1415905 at 37 and responses to this.

      Round 2 – Jan/Feb 2018 /search/Wei/page/3/ some interesting ones here but this is where it really got going again
      /search/Wei/page/2/ in particular see the two at the bottom of the page – but then leading to the first link above on 11 Feb.

      Then the 3 April episode (Round 3) including these:

      Open Mike 03/04/2018

      Open Mike 03/04/2018


      Also /open-mike-03-04-2018/#comment-1469856

      Then last night ——

    • veutoviper 18.3

      NZ born apparently – [deleted]

      The mod response to last night has now come in response to 1 at today’s OM – [deleted]
      Deja vu considering the previous response(s) eg Round 1 – Nov 2017 [deleted] – at 34 with first comments starting at about 15. Also 35 and 37.

      Round 2 – Jan/Feb 2018 [deleted] and page 2 leading to the first link above on 11 Feb.

      Then the OM 3 April episode (Round 3). Then last night …

      • Keepcalmcarryon 18.3.1

        Interesting history alright thanks veutoviper, I am in awe of your attention to detail!

        • veutoviper 18.3.1.1

          Lots of research experience, Actually the Search function here is not bad – above “comments/replies/opinions” lists. If you put in for example “veutoviper” it will bring up all comments by me in a (semi) chronological order, but you can also filter further using the choices under the Search box such as “comments”. . Also you can filter further by putting in two names -eg W.. B… and that filters down to those two persons. This is sometimes a little hit and miss. Oh, just rechecked that and here is another interesting one … [deleted]

          Words fail me – just as well probably.

          [Words fail you? Well, here are some words for your consideration. At 10:30 you tried to submit a comment very much like the one above. It got caught in “the trap” and I, being kind, sent it off to spam on the grounds that it was very much designed to rack up tension. If the comment had made it to the front end, you’d have been banned. Silly you decided to resubmit the same idiotic comment (more or less)at 11:00. Let’s be clear. Very clear. If someone is banned, they are beginning anew afterwards. “Hunting” people down to build some spiteful, xenophobic fueled case against them because of their comments is going to see you (or anyone else who does it) go on a very, very long holiday from the site. I don’t know whether your second submission was released, or came straight through to the front end. Depending on how much of my time I waste finding out, and depending on what I find out, I might be coming back to you with a moderation containing an as yet undecided length of time attached. I hope I’m clear enough; that you understand. Generating or encouraging any kind of punitive mob mentality around individuals who submit comments to this site will not end well for those indulging in the bullshit.] -Bill

    • KJT 18.4

      Fortunately most Chinese love New Zealand, and the second generation integrate well.

      If we are going to have immigration, however, our conscience should dictate taking more refugees, not middle and upper class Chinese, or Americans or anyone else, who can do well in their own countries.

      • ropata 18.4.1

        +1 Agreed immigrants make many positive contributions. It is the current volumes that are unsustainable and stressing our services and infrastructure and housing beyond capacity

      • savenz 18.4.2

        +1 KJT – we have pitiful refugees under the Natz, (Go figure as John Key always used how his mum was a refugee living in the state house). Charity clearly didn’t start at home in that scenario.

        Funny enough pretty sure that you can get tilers, chefs and so forth desperate to get out of a refugee camp, but nope the NZ agenda is more a societal one to change the demographic into Natz favour, overload the public sector and lower wages and conditions.

        Pity the lefty academics and politicians failed to notice.

  18. timeforacupoftea 19

    I don’t think we need to have non-humanitarian migrants nor do we need refugees.

    If a New Zealander goes overseas and comes back married or has gone through a civil union to a non New Zealander or a tourists fall in love here in NZ and Marries / civil union then that should be enough for our country to deal with.
    I suppose we could also allow the parents of the new New Zealander here too but not brothers sisters aunts and all the hanger on’s.

    I am not particularly happy with refugees coming in as the ones who are settled down south do tend to move towards Auckland as they don’t like our cold winters down here.

    Another thing about refugees which I have seen through my own eyes and they expect it to and are also very pushy people, they get every type of medical and dentistry help free and cue jump on Maori and Pakeha New Zealanders.
    I presume that goes for welfare as well.
    Before long they bring in the family tree etc.

    It’s a bloody mess.

    The fault lies with National, they should have cut down on Migrants and Refugees.

  19. tsmithfield 20

    During the election campaign, Jacinda promised to cut immigration by 20000-30000 during its three year term

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/18/jacinda-ardern-infuriated-with-comparisons-to-donald-trump

    So, how is she going to achieve that and at the same time supply 50-60000 more workers to enable the kiwibuild program?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/102427066/construction-industry-facing-shortfall-of-thousands-of-workers

    • Pat 20.1

      the answers are in your final link….

      ‘ Only 10 per cent of construction firms train staff at any one time. ‘

      ‘John Tookey, head of department for built environment engineering at AUT, said a lack of tradespeople was a global concern. “For many years we have had society transition to university for everything, degrees for all sorts of things that historically would have been school-leaver jobs. The trades have been looked down upon,” he said.’

      ‘Pamela Bell, of PrefabNZ, said prefabrication on a large scale could help to reduce the number of workers needed. She said the Government was aware its projections were based on traditional construction methods, not those in which houses were manufactured off-site.’

      ‘The pay on offer was not good enough to genuinely attract local trades workers, he said.’

      ‘Immigration was an important tool for construction companies to use when labour was tight, but it should not be used as a default option to get skilled workers, Quinn said.’

      • tsmithfield 20.1.1

        No problems with training more people. However, training takes time, and the housing crisis is now, so it appears to me that if the government wants to solve the problem quickly they will need to bring in the skills from overseas.

        • Pat 20.1.1.1

          an apprentice begins to be productive from 6 months to a year after being taken on ….that is nothing in the grand scheme of things especially when your talking about a work stream stretching out decades…..the construction industry has always been its own worst enemy when it comes to training, and only partially because of the boom bust nature.
          Think how many experienced tradesmen we would have now if the government had promoted training in response to the ChCh quakes instead of encouraging wholesale importation of dubious skills.

        • savenz 20.1.1.2

          If the housing crisis is now why are we making it worse by importing in 70,000 migrants and giving out 180,000 work permits?

          Such weird logic, I understand from the Natz, but Labourites seem to infected with fake logic syndrome.

          It’s pretty easy, who do you think should get any remaining houses, a local person or some Malaysian stopper, 300 people from China building the luxury Hyatt for an offshore organisation for rich tourists, 300 minimum wages bus drivers or a fake chef or hotel clerk probably paying for the job?

          None of these people are necessary for construction of urgent housing and actually it’s keeping local tradies out of the industry by not giving them opportunities.

          The urgent housing is only needed because of the immigration scam!

          Talk about Shock Doctrine syndrome operating in NZ, they created a crisis to manipulate the situation to their advantage so that banks and multinational’s in particular could lower wages and increase house and land prices. Then they use the ‘crisis’ to keep more people flooding in.

    • The Chairman 20.2

      “So, how is she going to achieve that and at the same time supply 50-60000 more workers to enable the kiwibuild program?”

      Labour are looking at utilizing prefabricated houses which require far less skilled workers to construct.

    • savenz 20.3

      No doubt as soon as they build them, they will need remedial work aka ChCH and leaky building and Bella Vista.

      Maybe go back to old fashioned Kiwi or legally resident tradies and make sure that they actually know what they are doing. Also council worker obviously, signing off the COC’s.

      Houses that are not habitable are no use for anyone and actually more destructive that not building them at all.

      Quality should beat quantity when our quality is so low in building and building materials.

  20. The Chairman 21

    “The New Zealand Institute of Economic Research believes we’d be better off with 15 million of us.”

    The Greens say 5.7 million has been suggested as a possible population limit based on New Zealand’s “ecological carrying capacity”.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8024613/Optimal-size-for-New-Zealand-15-million

    • Stuart Munro 21.1

      These kinds of numbers have a pretty limited basis in reality – Korea has getting on for fifty million in less space than the south island. But they have the best subway system in the world – good and cheap high speed rail, and a well developed apartment design and building sector.

      NZ could support a hundred million in comfort – but not without good planning. With Auckland struggling to find the strength of character to build decent sewerage and public transport infrastructure, NZ simply isn’t ready for substantial population increases, even if the public supported it.

        • Stuart Munro 21.1.1.1

          It’s a good point, and it shows the danger of deregulating global trade mechanisms, because rice farming is a pretty meagre living in Korea – in spite of being critical to providing food security. I was there during the protests, which were large and caused several fatalities.
          I wonder a little about the 90% of food is imported figure though – in dollar value perhaps – but local rice and vegetable production is substantial, perhaps it is poorly rewarded.

          • Pat 21.1.1.1.1

            I was surprised by the 90% figure as well….would need corroboration IMO, but even so we forget it wasnt that long ago that food security was a major issue for much of the world and its only kept at bay now by massive use of fossil fuels both in the production and transport.

      • savenz 21.1.2

        But do we want to? Bit like filling up the Pacific Islands with people or everywhere else too, Asia, Europe and America are densely populated, the Pacific has less money but more quality of life (or used to).

        Not sure we can have both – Asia, Europe and America, keep your cash and competition and we’ll opt for quality of life and natural environment.

        By building up NZ we are also putting carbon into the air, not helping the natural environment.

      • savenz 21.1.3

        South Korea, very corrupt nation, with high living costs and long working hours.

        North Korea, dictator with starvation at their door.

        Not sure either sounds like a good example for NZ to follow.

        • Stuart Munro 21.1.3.1

          The point I was trying to make was that to live with a higher population density we would have to make significant changes that struggle to attract political support.

          Cost of living is substantially lower than NZ – my average power bill was $8.

          Corruption in some areas perhaps – but they have a vigorous prosecution service that would have no problem locking up the likes of Key or Brownlee.

          As with any culture there are things to learn from Korea – public transport and anti-housing speculation measures among them.

      • Pat 21.1.4

        15 million,,,awesome, 10 Aucklands.

        • Stuart Munro 21.1.4.1

          There are roughly twice as many as that in Shanghai, probably in a smaller area all up. But although it is improving it is less than a poster case for high density living.

          The economists who came up with this drivel were blithering idiots – but given decent planning, proper infrastructure, and the absence of speculators and rorting, NZ could support a higher population without the freight of social and environmental problems that shabby planning, aging and over-patronized infrastructure and rampant uncontrolled property speculation have left us with.

          • Pat 21.1.4.1.1

            am well aware that the disaster area that is our largest city is a mere pup in world terms but just because it can be done by no means requires that it should be done.

          • savenz 21.1.4.1.2

            Where are the high paid jobs? The migrants and the kiwis are leaving because the wages are so low and opportunities few.

            Our average wage is close to the living wage which suggests that 50% of our population have wages below living levels.

            The obvious solution is to make any migrants be only high wage earners and to charge employers a lot more to bring the person in as well as pay some sort of bond to the government and if it does not work out the person does not get residency. Companies are going under after bringing in a lot of migrants.

            You have to wonder why we are allowing this. A 24 month stand down – first why should they be allowed to bring in minimum wages staff in the first place as restaurant staff, secondly they break NZ rules and they don’t get a massive fine or even a life ban from bringing in more migrants. Something is very wrong in this country.

            Christchurch restaurant run ‘how it is in Japan’ fined over breaches
            http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/04/christchurch-restaurant-run-how-it-is-in-japan-fined-over-breaches.html

            • Stuart Munro 21.1.4.1.2.1

              Agreed.

              It also shows that far from the technical specialists we were supposed to be getting to lift our productivity, we’re getting useless property investors and low end labourers or dodgy business operators who should not qualify for entry without some humanitarian reason.

              • savenz

                It’s actually going the other way with the technical specialists too, big companies (and big name companies) are secretly or not so secretly laying off experienced (read more expensive staff) with a strategy of getting in cheap graduates or migrants … the problem is NZ is starting to lose more and more of our experienced technical staff (eagerly snapped up in many cases overseas) but also like construction, we will no longer have anyone who knows what they are doing and are experienced at doing it. Huge problems ahead with that strategy in particular the tech industry… but I guess to the corps, they get their bonus by saving a $ at the expense of a longer term viable company or delivering viable projects to this country.

                • Janet

                  Exactly. as well as much of our “work” being now undertaken off-shore, our NZ skilled and educated are leaving for a variety of reasons. They need to come home. How do we persuade them back. it takes about 7 years to gain a NZ passport, maybe it should take 7 years to lose it !

      • The Chairman 21.1.5

        These numbers highlight the vast differences in what some are advocating for.

        The one thing many Koreans have told me is they like NZ because of its open spaces and the fact its not so crowded. Hence, it’s a selling point.

        And the feeling of being crowded out is what is turning many kiwis off growing immigration.

        Our ailing infrastructure is failing to cope with the numbers we currently have let alone having to deal with a population of 15 million. Moreover, local and central government are struggling with the growing related costs of improving and providing more infrastructure. Therefore, I agree. NZ simply isn’t ready for substantial population increases.

  21. CHCOff 22

    Yep, we need more record immigration levels so every attempt to try and get to grip with New Zealand’s negative social trends – the vast majority – are futile.

    Turn the social trends around, then look at immigration as an valid economic tool or multiplier- not before. The vast majority of new immigrants would support such like too as after they are here, would be in most of their interests also.

    end of story.

    • ropata 22.1

      Agreed with the first part (if it is indeed sarcasm)

      Disagree with the next bit, “the vast majority of new immigrants” vote National in order to fill up NZ with their compatriots and push out the locals.

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