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Dom Post – Key, Kitteridge and Finlayson can’t be trusted

Written By: - Date published: 7:03 am, March 21st, 2016 - 88 comments
Categories: accountability, john key, journalism, newspapers - Tags: , , , , , ,

An anonymous editorial in the Dominion Post over the weekend is spot on:

The public were misled by the fiction about Kiwi jihadi brides

The jihadi brides affair is extremely damaging for the Government. It raises serious questions about the accuracy of claims made by John Key, SIS boss Rebecca Kitteridge and Security Intelligence Minister Chris Finlayson.

Kitteridge told MPs in December that there had been a rise in the number of New Zealand women travelling to Syria and Iraq. Key referred to them as “jihadi brides”.

This clearly left the impression that the women were leaving from this country. Now it has become clear that they left from Australia.

But Key and Kitteridge did nothing to correct the false impression they left. It is nonsense to say, as Finlayson does, that the women’s point of departure is “irrelevant”.

If Labour ministers had made these misleading statements, Key and Finlayson would be howling for their blood. The affair is also very damaging for Kitteridge. … She has championed accountability – but failed to set the record straight on a serious issue of national security.

The matter is so serious, in fact, that the new Inspector-General, Cheryl Gwyn, should investigate.

Chris Finlayson, finally, has shown he is not fit to be an intelligence minister. He says what matters is that the jihadi brides are New Zealanders and they might return to this country. It certainly matters that they might come back here. But misleading the public about where they come from matters just as much.

Finlayson … shows politicians will use misleading and inflammatory language about security and then refuse to do anything when caught out. This affair comes just as the Government is about to take up Sir Michael Cullen’s recommendations giving great new powers to the spies.

Why should we trust those new powers to the likes of Key, Kitteridge and Finlayson?

An honest and important editorial. Let’s hope it sets a new trend!

88 comments on “Dom Post – Key, Kitteridge and Finlayson can’t be trusted ”

  1. Incognito 1

    It was very convenient to leave unchallenged an impression that NZ was a potential breeding ground of terrorist supporters if not actual terrorists. Presumably these would be among the magic forty people who chronically are on the watch list of our spy agencies.

    I briefly thought that Kitteridge was made of better material but she seems to be just the same as Key and his henchmen.

    • gez the rev 1.1

      if you ever think key will allow someone into a position like this that is not his lickspittle you are quite deluded. im sure she is very happy with key laying the blame at her feet. that’s what she gets paid for

      • Incognito 1.1.1

        So, are you saying that Kitteridge made a Faustian pact and sold her soul to the Devil?

        • gez the rev 1.1.1.1

          the woman aint got no soul

          • Incognito 1.1.1.1.1

            Kitteridge is a highly intelligent and professional woman, and she’s probably handsomely paid, I agree. But John Key doesn’t ‘own’ her; she’s responsible for her own actions or inactions for that matter. On this occasion she failed do her job as well as she could have and she let us down; I think she’ll learn from this as will others. The question that remains for me is whether she’s committed to the job in the way that I’d thought and hoped she was or whether she’s more intended to be or play her ‘part of the system’ without really upsetting the status quo, rather the opposite. The answer has now become more elusive, for me at least.

    • TC 1.2

      Wake up!!! Key only appoints shills, lackeys and willing servants that strive to achieve his desired outcomes

  2. ScottGN 2

    It was also notable that as soon as he was cornered on the issue Key dumped all the blame for the misleading statements right onto Rebecca Kitteridge. Pretty crappy, even for him.

    • Grace Miller 2.1

      It’s best with Dunnokeyo to expect the worst, then dig lower. Remember, he’s a known liar, sexual fetishist and all-round creep.

    • gez the rev 2.2

      not really. he pulls girls’ hair

      • adam 2.2.1

        so gez the rev, as an adult, pulling women and girls ponytails is not creepy to you. interesting…

        • gez the rev 2.2.1.1

          hi adam, perhaps I didn’t make myself clear enough, in reply to scottgn (not grace miller)who said it was “pretty crappy even for him” I made my comment, meaning if he is such a lowlife as to pull girls hair(as an “adult”(I use the term adult very loosely)) he would be quite happy to throw Rebecca (or any other woman) under the bus. that is the lowlife he is.

          • adam 2.2.1.1.1

            Thanks for the clarification gez the rev. And I agree.

            Key will throw anyone under the bus to hold onto power.

            How his back bencher’s must be wetting their pants about now.

            • Paul 2.2.1.1.1.1

              His nickname in the amoral world of finance was the smiling assassin.
              If that’s what that bunch thought of him, he must be pretty low.
              You don’t make tens of millions without a seriously nasty streak.

    • mosa 2.3

      If she was genuine she would be contemplating resigning
      Key has made it untenable to continue and if he had any decency he would resign along with Finlayson
      THIS STINKS !!!

  3. NZJester 3

    It is my understanding as well that this was just a single individual as well not multiple New Zealanders leaving even if it was from Australia.
    The term “Brides” implies more than one to make it sounds even scarier.
    The fact they left the impression it had happened more than once was even worse than leaving out the fact they had been an Australian resident and left from there.
    It gave the impression there was someone actively recruiting multiple women here inside this country they wanted the power to keep an eye on.
    These days when I pronounce John’s name I tend to pronounce it with the J having a SH sound.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      The term “Brides” implies more than one to make it sounds even scarier.

      Which was the point. National rules by creating fear where there really isn’t anything to be afraid of.

    • Smilin 3.2

      Yeah he really speaks like that, its all SLOSH that comes out of his mouth

  4. Gangnam Style 4

    About time that others got concerned about this laissez-faire Govt as us ‘loony lefties’.

  5. Draco T Bastard 5

    The PM, the intelligence boss and another minister caught out lying to the people. For some strange reason we don’t seem to have the ability to throw them in jail.

    • kieron 5.1

      Do we have the ability to impeach them?

      • Lanthanide 5.1.1

        No.

      • mosa 5.1.2

        We have a kiwi Richard Nixon here
        Nixon was to be impeached but resigned before the senate trial
        Someone like Mc Cready could bring a private prosecution but it would be hard to fight and win and Key knows he is untouchable
        Look at the amount of times he has misled parliment the highest court in the land

        • Smilin 5.1.2.1

          8 years of it

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5.1.2.1.1

            No-one is going to be thrown into jail on Draco’s say-so. (Imagine, for a moment, what a frightening world that would be).

      • NZJester 5.1.3

        Doesn’t the Governor general have the power to call a snap election if the party in power is doing thing that are not in the countries interests? Unfortunately I doubt he would do it even with all the piles of evidence of this governments misdeeds and lies.

    • miravox 5.2

      The thing that disappoints me most about this is the intelligence boss going along with the government spin in this.

      The public service is meant to provide accurate, independent advice to government. Even lying government ministers have to be confident that a public servant is providing clear and truthful analysis at all times. If the public servant gives that role up, even at the behest of the Prime Minister, that person cannot ever be trusted to do their job in service of the public.

  6. Stuart Munro 6

    Jihadi brides are basically an imaginary set – we’ve had none in NZ and even England has had at most a handful.Yet there is a line that must be drawn here too – our criminal tradition does not include the wives of murderers, bank robbers, P dealers or tax evaders unless they themselves engage in culpable activity. If there were jihadi brides I’m curious to know what charges should be laid against them.

  7. AmaKiwi 7

    Thanks and congratulations to the Dominion Post.

    The Standard routinely posts lists of hundreds of John Key lies. The mainstream media says nothing. Absolutely zero. Their silence is literally a crime.

    ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT

    “Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact; one who knowing a felony to have been committed by another, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the felon in order to hinder the felon’s apprehension, trial, or punishment. U.S.C. 18”

    http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a007.htm

  8. Lanthanide 8

    I think a lot of people in the media are giving the government the benefit of the doubt that we are actually talking about multiple women here.

    I would happily bet $10 that it is actually exactly 1 NZ woman that we are talking about.

    Edit: Ah, I see NZJester makes the same point at #3 above.

  9. ianmac 9

    Key called them “jihadi brides”. Kittereidge did not say that. Key passed the blame onto Kitteridge. The online clips show that. Therefore Key is shown to tell the lie. Pity that MSM, apart from Dompost Editorial will not prosecute this. Too busy nailing the innocent words of Andrew.

  10. Anne 10

    The matter is so serious, in fact, that the new Inspector-General, Cheryl Gwyn, should investigate.

    Indeed she should. I presume she has the power to undertake such an investigation of her own volition.

    Like Incognito I, too, thought Kitteridge was showing signs of being a breath of fresh air. That is, someone who was prepared to bring the SIS out of the shadows sufficiently for us to better understand the purpose of their work. Instead she seems to have been drawn into the web of deceit (perhaps unwittingly) that always surrounds the John Key government.

    If the SIS is being used as a political tool by this government – and the evidence thus far suggests it is – then an investigation would expose it once and for all which is not only in our interest but the interest of the SIS as well.

    • mosa 10.1

      Yeah you are right Anne but in light of what has happened and that everything is a conspiracy could the Inspector General act independently or be politically sensitive to the current regime ?
      KEYS KITTERIDGE has gone the way of all Key apointees -down the toilet

  11. saveNZ 11

    Great to see some of MSM are slowing waking up. I suspect they are working out, that losing so many readers by repeating endless government propaganda and zero real news, is not doing their long term interests any good. In fact hastening their demise. Good job!

    • TC 11.1

      Wait and see if this gets similar treatment from his primetime wider audience shills hoskins, henry etc and the radio rant land militia

      • saveNZ 11.1.1

        @ TC I don’t think they can change.

        But what I would like to see, is that Waatea 5th Estate have a political round up each week/month with the opposition leaders that talk about the issues going on in this country.

        Would not be surprised if it is a win win for ratings, as well as being an opportunity for opposition leaders to make their points without some demented Natz tard like Henry or Hoskins interrupting with Natz spin every 2 minutes and so you can’t even find out what the issues are, even if you were interested.

        TV3 has already found to it’s detriment that actually Kiwis are not happy with MSM and their disgusting treatment of staff and push of right wing agenda.

        • TC 11.1.1.1

          Its not about ratings, they will do as instructed so expect this to follow the same path as many of keys other lies such as from tranzrail forward.

      • ianmac 11.1.2

        Hate to link to Hoskings but he interviewed Key this morning. At 1:06 he blandly justifies the Jihadi Brides.
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=158857

    • Paul 11.2

      Fairfax are axing jobs in Australia.
      The. Neoliberal revolution is eating its own children…and its propagandists.

  12. shorts 12

    I actually think that Key and co has a point – the place of departure isn’t overly important… NZ’ers travelling to become terrorists is newsworthy and a potential concern

    That is until they decided to act like the women were leaving from NZ and lied about it, and then numbers travelling and the whole terrible affair. This was all blatant and calculated and all three of them should be held accountable and our spy agencies now have to earn our trust back (not going to happen under this govt)

    Our Govt decided to make this a thing, now they need to be held accountable for their deceit and lack of respect for all New Zealanders – this should be held up every single time Key suggests they need more power… or better yet used as reason to disband them and start afresh

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      No western government can be trusted with their enabling of the security and surveillance state.

      Snowden and others have revealed an internal culture of rule breaking, law circumvention, bravado and misuse of surveillance technology throughout the FVEY nations.

      And just look at how Little elbowed the Greens off their rightful place on the intelligence subcommittee.

      That’s just a taste of the anti-democratic arrogance from the ruling elite.

      • Anne 12.1.1

        And just look at how Little elbowed the Greens off their rightful place on the intelligence subcommittee.

        Care to explain exactly how “Little” achieved it CV? Like other select committees, I always thought the govt. of the day had a one member majority and made the decisions that rule these bodies.

        • adam 12.1.1.1

          No the Intelligence and Security Committee committee does not operate like other committees in parliament. It meets very rarely, and, does not take minutes.

          It has 5 members – The P.M, the leader of the opposition, let me see if I remember correctly. The P.M gets to chose 2 more members, and the leader of the opposition 1.

          Convention up till Little’s wee move, was having more than the labour party on the committee. Little broke that.

          • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1.1

            BLIP describes this far better than I ever could in his post “Labour’s Betrayal Continues.”

            At a time when oversight of New Zealand’s spy agencies is needed more than ever, Labour’s betrayal of New Zealanders continues unabated.

            Just before Christmas, Labour participated in a travesty of Parliamentary process to ensure the passing of legislation which gave New Zealand’s security intelligence agencies the right to “spy at will” on any or all New Zealanders without even the need to first obtain a warrant to do so. This time, Labour Leader Andrew Little has gone so far as to apparently break the law with reference to Section 7(1)(d) of the Intelligence And Security Committee Act 1996. That section appears to oblige the Leader of the Opposition to consult “with the leader of each party that is not in Government or in coalition with a Government party” in recommending members of the parliamentary committee, the ISC, which oversees the functioning and future of New Zealand’s spy agencies. Rather than consulting with the Greens and New Zealand First, Andrew Little instead left it up to the media to inform those parties that they had not been consulted and that no member from either party would be a member of the ISC.

            This is a break from tradition, an insult, and a continuation of Labour’s contempt for democracy.

            The result of Andrew Little’s “Captain’s Call” is that the only MPs which get to have a say on New Zealand’s spy agencies are from those same parties which have overseen – and excused – the abuse of power by the spy agencies.

            http://www.thestandard.org.nz/labours-betrayal-continues/

  13. Olwyn 13

    The very term “jihadi brides” is like something from the UK or US gutter press – it is a slogan looking for a home more than a description. And as a slogan it does not slide naturally into the NZ conversation – it seems borrowed from elsewhere, or the result of a brainstorming session. Key, Findlayson and Kitteridge are all meant to be acting on behalf of New Zealanders. If they think that increased spying is of value to New Zealanders, then they ought to be able to tell us how and why, without resorting to slogans. Especially slogans that are so out of place in a NZ context.

    • Anne 13.1

      The only person who used the expression “jihadi brides” was John Key. I also believe he heard someone else use it (CT?) and stored it away in his brain as a good emotive expression in which to fool the masses – and that includes the bulk of the superficial clowns who fancy themselves as journos in this country.

      • shorts 13.1.1

        I reckon it was supplied to the PM directly from Crosby Textor as it is also used in the UK and no doubt other CS clients homelands

        this fear campaign was planned, it wasn’t a slip of the tongue I would suggest

  14. Observer (Tokoroa) 14

    Hi – Colonial Viper.

    Are you implying that Andrew Little is a liar and untrustworthy like Key, Kitteridge and Finlayson.

    Trolling again mate?

    Also, what do your words “No western government”…. can manage their security and surveillance. Are you saying that Asians who by an large sadly lack adequate human rights policy, is the model? Russia superb too? The Arab world is perfection for you Colonial Viper?

    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      I just gave you an example of how Little elbowed out of the way the Greens from their lawful position on the Intelligence subcommittee.

      Labour also voted for National’s security state spying/anti-terrorism legislation.

      As a blindly committed Labour loyalist, you can give Andrew Little a pass on all that if you like. Doesn’t matter since its probably going to be GR2020 anyway.

      Re: other countrys’ management of their own surveillance and spy services – none of them come anywhere close to the all invasive power, corporate infrastructure, technology and network access available to the FVEYs and the NSA.

      Again, feel free to turn a blind eye to the massive abuses of power and democracy revealed by Snowden and others.

      • Expat 14.1.1

        CV

        “Doesn’t matter since its probably going to be GR2020 anyway.”

        In your dreams, the greens have been diminishing their support with the changes in their “core values” for example : changing their mind on the Liquor License changes for the Ruby W/C, a 100% turn around from their initial stance after being called “wowzers” by the likes of Henry and Hoskings, crumpled straight away, where’s the backbone?

        The Greens in Aus have just assisted the Lib Govt to change the Senate voting laws, just like Shaw saying he could work with Nat, for the Greens in Aus, it likely they will loose some seats in the next election, both in Govt and the senate, and I see the same in NZ, the recent loss of some key supporters “resigning” from the party being indicative and proof of that.

    • On spying, Labour policy is precisely as bad as National policy, they just promise to use their powers more “nicely.”

      If we can’t trust them to reform or replace spy agencies as necessary, then they don’t deserve control over them.

  15. AB 15

    We’ll be waiting a long time for a similar editorial in the NZ Herald. So two cheers for the Dom Post.
    Exaggerating external threats is standard MO everywhere for justifying the existence of state security and surveillance services. This happens even though most of their effort is focused on the domestic population – in particular that element of the domestic population who present even a half-credible threat to the private power of domestic elites.

  16. Observer (Tokoroa) 16

    Well Colonial Viper,

    having written off the democratic West nobody could ever accuse you of any loyalty – other than to your own ego.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      Re: “the democratic west” maybe you should look up MKUltra, Operation Northwoods, COINTELPRO, what the US did in the Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, their support of the head chopping hand chopping Sauds, Saddam Hussein, their re-arming of Israel as Israel was bombing apartment blocks in Gaza.

      How many Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodian civilians were bombed and napalmed to death by US forces.

      Up to 2 million Muslims killed by the western coalition since 1990, including up to a million Iraqi children through US sponsored sanctions. Madeline Albright famously interviewed, saying it was worth it.

      The destroyed state that Libya, until recently the richest country in Africa, is in today 5 years after NATO intervention.

      God man keep sucking up the corporate PR, it’s turning your brain to mush. The rest of the world isn’t buying it.

      • Well-said. The “democratic west” largely is democratic in public, and in their own countries, only. Spying generally turns a lot of staunch “democrats” into authoritarians, and outside of New Zealand’s left, most of the anglosphere politicians believe foreign policy shouldn’t be democratic and shouldn’t honour elections in “non-western” countries.

    • adam 16.2

      Wow, Observer (Tokoroa) no chance of addressing Colonial Viper points’, starting into personal attacks now.

      How very adult of you.

      Funny how when people criticise the labour party, those defending the same party, talk and act Just like the Tory cretins who comment on here.

      For a party at 30%, don’t you think you would be better off – getting on with the NZ first and green supporters here? The choice is yours’. But personally, I think some of the labour faithful, need to learn to take criticism a wee bit better.

      Because if this is a question of deep state. And this whole post is. Michael Cullen and his unfettered promotion of spying powers makes me sick.

      I think what has been worse, is the quite acceptance by many labour party people here.

      Cullen, a unabashed liberal, is happy for you to be spied on, more and more!

      So yeah Little and company, need to be taken to task.

  17. Where’s BM? Surely he’ll be here any minute to defend this bullshit?

  18. Visubversa 18

    Women travel to Iraq for a lot of reasons. I work with a number of Iraqi Christians who came here after the US invasion. They came as skilled migrants, and many of them still have relatives in Iraq. There was no thought given to the fact that some of the women who are NZ citizens (as my workmates are now) may be going to visit relatives and have nothing to do with either Jihad or “brides”. It is just a nasty smear on the part of Shonkey.

  19. Expat 19

    Not too many days now to the results of the Flag referendum, the outcome will be interesting, there should be no change, given the consistent polling against change, but we have a Nat govt and JK, and nothing is a foregone conclusion with either of them.

    If we see an apparent support for the new Flag from the voting results, it will raise serious issues over the validity of the voting process and more widely, the democratic process.

  20. Observer (Tokoroa) 20

    That’s right Colonial Viper. It’s all Labour’s fault.

    Your mantra is silly.

    Thank god, we have the good example of Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and Kim Korea, and the countless Mohammeds – to follow. They like you are paragons of peace.

    A lot of the world however despises them. I wonder why.

    The Greens may one day openly support robust Defence / Security systems to protect us against the Eastern maniacs. And save the whales too.

    • AmaKiwi 20.1

      If you have a factual reply to something Colonial Viper has said, I want to hear it.

      CV said by not putting a Green on the Intelligence Security Committee Andrew Little broke convention and the LAW.

      You sound just like John Key when you attack CV’s character but can’t site a shred of evidence against his arguments. My opinion of some of the people on this site has taken a dive today.

      • Expat 20.1.1

        “CV said by not putting a Green on the Intelligence Security Committee Andrew Little broke convention and the LAW.”

        If that’s the case then charges should be laid against Little, but if they do, I think the same charges should be laid against JK as we know, he has no scruples or integrity.

        At the end of the day, the committee still operates on an democracy, and the Nats still have the numbers, so pretty trivial really, makes absolutely no difference to outcome, just another CV jibe, and if you consider Shaw’s remark about “working with National” it only reinforces the triviality.

        • Macro 20.1.1.1

          Actually it wasn’t the law that was broken but a fairly firm convention. However Little derided Metiria in implying she wasn’t up to the task when she has a law degree and has served more time in Parliament than Sheerer.

          • Expat 20.1.1.1.1

            Macro

            I was just responding to Amakiwi, thank you for the correction, but my view that it made no difference to the outcome still stands.

            How ever, it is disappointing that the likely partners of the next govt aren’t showing one another the level of respect and unity that we should be looking for, another example is the comments made by Tiso over Littles response in Upper Hut to the chef thing, completely blown out of proportion, going along for the ride of the msm, and Little should have discussed the matter with Metiria, we need to work harder to be more considerate of the partners of the next govt, diplomacy, and understanding towards each other is paramount if they’re going to give the impression of a “unified”, credible and electable coalition that the supporters can be proud of.

            • Macro 20.1.1.1.1.1

              I can tell you that the Little snub was felt very strongly within Greens and the fact is that Sheerer (from his past behaviour and comments) is far more likely to be siding with the Govt.
              Tiso is not a member of the Green Party Caucus (he may or may mot be a Green Party Member I don’t know) so I’m not sure where you comment with regards his response to Little’s statement on immigration is coming from.

              • Colonial Viper

                As i wrote above, BLIP described the event very well in his post last year titled “Labour’s betrayal continues.”

              • Expat

                Macro

                “I’m not sure where you comment with regards his response to Little’s statement on immigration is coming from.”

                CV kindly provided the info on Tiso, along with a few others on his post comparing Little with Corbyn on immigration, after Littles reply to a question from a reporter from the local News paper in upper hut while Little was visiting a local school.

                • Macro

                  Have just re-read that post. I’m still not sure how Tiso comes into all this – he having no status as far as I can ascertain in the Green Party. Yes the Green’s are concerned with political correctness just as much as are many in Labour, and I agree that public point scoring on internal political disputes is very unhelpful. But the Green party has not to my knowledge made any criticism of Andrew Little wrt the “chef” beat up by the media, and indeed, if I recall correctly, actually supported on National Radio the actual statements of what he said; rather than the biased interpretation of an obviously hired hack.

                  • Expat

                    Macro

                    ” I agree that public point scoring on internal political disputes is very unhelpful”

                    And this is my point, both parties need “resist” the temptation of public sniping, the most successful Govt’s, are those that have the required level of discipline to keep their differences out of the public eye, and work towards the ideal of been seen to be mutually cohesive.

                    I’m not letting Little off the hook, as you read in in my post, if he’s broken the law then he should be charged, that’s fair.

                    Your argument about Sheerer, I’m not familiar with, but most political parties are built on a range of ideals, there has always been factions from the right and the left within those parties, even the Greens (and probably more so today), I see this as being “healthy” democracy.

                    You have to admit that the last 7 or so years has been a difficult time for all parties with a left tilt, and for numerous reasons of which I’m sure your well aware of.

                    I get tired of the “never ending ” attacks of Labour who have worn the brunt of the BS Nats meme, and the MSM going along for the ride, it has been damaging to them and their confidence.

                    IMO, the most important goal for a potential coalition party, is to remove the existing incumbents, the Greens can’t do this on their own, and neither can Labour, or NZF, so they all need to recognise how powerful they can become, if they just show some discipline and unity to fight the “common enemy.

                    The continual attacks on Labour from some supporters of the Green party here, is simply “self defeating”, they may as well vote National, and be done with it, because, as I said, they will never be able to govern alone, and that’s a fact.

                    • Macro

                      The continual attacks on Labour from some supporters of the Green party here, is simply “self defeating”, they may as well vote National, and be done with it, because, as I said, they will never be able to govern alone, and that’s a fact.

                      The problem with that statement is that it does not recognise the fact that there are some members of the Labour caucus who are simply wedded to the failed neo-liberal policies of yesteryear. They cannot see that the global market and free for all policies that they were instrumental in introducing have been an anathema for the very people they were elected to represent – the workers of NZ. It is this intractable refusal to recognise the harm they have done that causes many here (and they come from all sectors on the left not just Greens) to continue with the trenchant criticism, for there can be no doubt that the neo-liberal economic has seen the decline of living standards for the majority, not only in NZ but world wide. I gather from comments that you reside in Australia. Australia has suffered less than other countries – until recent times. Not just because of its wealth of mining, but also through a solid union base and the protection of jobs by the restriction of imports. (That is, until the Abbott regime over turned the car industry for example and 50,000 jobs went out the window).
                      That is where the criticism on this site is coming from, and it will continue until Labour again stands up for the people whom they are elected to represent, not only in employment law reform, but also in promoting a just and equitable economy for all – and that does not include a free for all, unfettered, neo-liberal, bun fight.

      • Anno1701 20.1.2

        ” protect us against the Eastern maniacs”

        they are coming for our women, flee !!!!!

        • Expat 20.1.2.1

          Where I live, 25% of the population is of “Eastern” culture, nearly every single day there is a drive-by shooting, and nearly every single incident is from a middle eastern gang, the incidence of sexual assault of young women has an extremely high ratio of “eastern men” being responsible , I doubt whether they’re coming for you, or your women, but statistical data does appear to put this lot in the maniacs basket.

          You must realise that middle eastern culture is completely different from the culture and values you grew up with, try going to their country and living there for a while, and you’ll find that “women” local and migrant have absolutely no rights what so ever, woman who have been raped and lay a complaint are charged with “sex outside of marriage” and will serve at least 2 years in prison, a huge deterrent for justice.

  21. Observer (Tokoroa) 21

    To Adam and To AmaKiwi

    The Western World to which I belong is far from perfect. But it does have a few great democratic things going for it. Such as freedom of speech. The right to assemble. The provision of welfare. Universal Education. Freedom of Religion. Much more too.

    The CZarist, Communist, Asio-Despotic, and Islamic models among others, do not comfortably value those priceless things. Although within their hearts ordinary people of those countries would I imagine, like to have similar rights as Westerners.

    The Western world has a strong concept of The Common Man. It wasn’t always like that. For centuries most western humans were serfs. Slaves of the so called Nobles. No rights.

    But gradually Reformers, Unionists, Feminist Groups, Workers in all aspects of life began to raise the dignity of the populace. Ever since, the West will fight to the limit to retain their Rights.

    They do not regard their system as perfect, But they will fight against any foe to retain their Democracy.

    The Common Man, is not a Capitalist. He is Middle Class man with education, work and dignity. He pays taxes and provides wealth to poorer people. For he has strong bonds with his fellow countrymen.

    In this imperfect world he takes Defence and Security very very seriously. For he realises that The Communist model is demeaning just like the Capitalist model. The
    CZarist model is empty gross greed. The Islamic model is highly restrictive and unbelievably male centric. Cruel to a nicety.

    I would like Colonial Viper to acknowledge the great work done by Labour over many decades in various parts of the Westerrn World. I want him to stop slagging off at it. For if Labour had not laid themselves on the line, there would not be Democracy on this planet.

    The Greens must show themselves as Defenders of Defence and Security. No ifs and no buts.

    Thanks for reading me. I hope you value the miracle of democracy too.

    • adam 21.1

      I’m a democrat, and a big one. But, I’m also anti authoritarian.

      The Labour party, and in particular the first and third government were very good. They even had socialist in the party. Many of the models and programmes you espouse come from that period. Please remember that I, and a rather large chunk of the population look at the modern labour party, and recognise it is nothing like it’s historical counter part.

      Lets be clear – I don’t want to change it. Watching people try, has been an exercise in futility. It’s a liberal party who know, and use the language of working people pain. Try reading the “Death of the Liberal classes” http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8607391-the-death-of-the-liberal-class

      So back to democracy, because here you and I agree. democracy is a great tool and essential for a rewarding and fulfilling society. I agree it’s not perfect, but I would like us expand democracy into peoples lives, not restrict it.

      So getting back to the topic, of spying. Spying is not a democratic tool. In war, I know it’s essential. Even though I’m one who would like to see us work towards ending all wars. But I will live with the reality, that one won’t end simply.

      Decent and hearing voices of opposition are the life blood of a vibrant democracy.

      Acting like the Stasi, does not a democracy make.

      So broad spying, and in particular spying on you own population is anti-democratic. It undermines democracy. If for no other reason that leaders start to think when people are blowing off steam, that their comments are real and they will action on them. Spies become paranoid. You listen into people conversations all day, I’m sure you would get a bit loopy too.

      Who has not said they want to kick John Key in the nuts, or David Shearer for that matter. I’ve said it, it does not mean I will do it or want to do it. Actually it’s the last thing I want to do, it’s pointless – except to blow off stream.

      Key and Co. use spying to justify their mad hatred of working people and the middle classes. They then feed the fear they get from spying, back into the media. It’s a bloody awful circle of ridiculous behaviour. I know liberals think it is a public good, but it is not.

      Freedom comes with price, you must defend it often and with good moral judgement. Freedom is anthem to totalitarian types, be they left or right. Nothing will end democracy quicker, than the termination of freedom.

  22. Expat 22

    Observer (Tokoroa)

    Well said, people forget quickly the rights that have been provided to them, from hard working advocates of “Fairness and Equality”.

    Democracy is NOT something the current govt is particularly interested in, and there are plenty of examples for everyone to see, starting with the Canterbury ECAN, or maybe the Flag debacle.

  23. Smilin 23

    How long had these women been living in Australia ?
    Were they on the list of 40 of whatever that Keyjerk thinks are those they are looking at in NZ at the GCSB?
    Were they resident here before they went to Aussie ?
    Did they go as something else from NZ ?or where were they here before they went to Aussie?
    No one seems to be highlighting that
    jihadi brides -Dont give the them a title -they are traitors thats all -shoot them if they support ISIS
    WHERES YOUR GETS SOME GUTS NOW KEY ?
    I thought you were going to take them all out a while ago

  24. Tautuhi 24

    Kitteridge and Finlayson need to go, they are Key puppets, cronyism is alive and well in the NZ Security Services, creating the “climate of fear” US style CIA type politics-yuk!!!

    Reds under the bed style politics, the closer we align ourselves with the US the more we are attracting negative sentiments. Keys policy of “where the US goes we go” is flawed, we to WAKE UP AND STAND ON OUR OWN TWO FEET.

    NZ and Ausralia were the main supporters of the UK in WW1 and WW2, the US only came into WW1 when the war was almost won, and only entered WW2 when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour?

  25. The problem is not so much that the politicians lied or at least deceived via false implication. The problem is that the Director of the NZSIS decided that a relative insignificant, even non-existent threat was worthy of mention on a par with other more pressing concerns at a public news conference designed as a PR exercise to show “transparency.” The impression is that this was a deliberate deflection or diversion on Ms. Kitteridge’s part, perhaps at the behest of her political masters. If so, then her behaviour was unprofessional because it violated the premise of neutral objectivity when assessing threats that intelligence agencies are supposed to adhere to.

    I agree that Ms. Kitteridge has let us down. I also fear that she may be the victim of “institutional capture,” whereby the agency supposedly being overseen and managed eventually envelopes the overseer or manager with internal logics and perspectives that do not necessarily accord with the need for efficiency, non-partisan neutrality, accountability and bureaucratic reform.

    Interestingly, with the exception of some tweaks to the Inspector-General’s role, that of the parliamentary select committee on intelligence and security and the recommendation for a three tiered warrant system, those objectives and the foreign espionage and counter-espionage activities of the NZSIS were conspicuous by their absence in the report submitted by the Cullen/Reddy Intelligence Review.

    • Anne 25.1

      I agree that Ms. Kitteridge has let us down. I also fear that she may be the victim of “institutional capture,…

      I remember some of the early comments made by Kitteridge which suggest to me there has been an element of ‘capture’ in her responses. Nothing too wrong with that provided she balances it out with a conscientious effort to look at security issues from an external perspective as well… particularly in respect of the effect on the bulk of the population going about their day to day business.

      It is interesting to note that the only time this issue becomes significant is under National governments. It was well known Muldoon used the SIS for political purposes and it probably included the infamous Colin Moyle affair. Then we had the surreal situation where an unstable right wing blogger was supplied by a former SIS director with confidential information about the opposition leader which was then used to discredit said leader. I wonder if we will ever find out the truth behind that disreputable affair. And now we have the jihadi brides.

      Say what else you like about Labour, but when in goverment they do not appear to have used the SIS for personal political gain and for that they should be applauded – not derided.

  26. Paul 26

    TheNew Zealand Herald thinks the Bachelorette is more important news that the PM of the country lying to the nation.
    What a rag it has become.

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11609296

    • Expat 26.1

      Murdoch, and his media empire, probably the most destructive influence in the world today.

  27. Tautuhi 27

    Equivalent to the UK Sun?

  28. Noah 28

    Mrs Kittiridge,has a look,of old school educated class.In bright,but to be used with others fears of their greeds manipulation,well.?.

  29. swordfish 29

    “An honest and important editorial. Let’s hope it sets a new trend !”

    In fact, it’s been a discernible trend with the Dom Post for quite some time now.

    Once reliably partisan for the Key Govt, their Editorials are now a very mixed bunch – as likely to be sharply critical as supportive. Maybe down to the individual editorial writer (often, of course, senior journos, not necessarily the editor).

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