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DPF personifies why the Nats lost and why they will lose again

Written By: - Date published: 9:16 am, October 21st, 2017 - 61 comments
Categories: David Farrar, MMP, same old national - Tags: , , ,

Couldn’t believe what I was reading from Farrar – Goals for National. They are to “Knock 2.3% off NZ First to eliminate them from Parliament”, and hit the Greens “they need to lose just 1.4% to be out of Parliament”, and of course to attack Labour.

It’s the same thinking as English and Joyce, and it’s the thinking that lost them the election because no one wants to work with them. It’s FPP thinking from a party that still doesn’t understand the MMP world.

Amazing.

Please National, please follow this plan to the letter. Please keep attacking every possible coalition partner and trying to go it alone. It’s a wonderful idea! Honest!

61 comments on “DPF personifies why the Nats lost and why they will lose again ”

  1. jcuknz 1

    I think the ground rules for MMP need to be changed from “Lets get together and form a government” to “we are the largest party and would you like to join us in Government”.
    This is how it works in Germany I gather and sounds much more sensible than the current circus.
    I do not think much love is lost between the German support parties but a pragmatic approach to working on a solution.
    Somehow the voters need to retain the sensible economic policy with a more humane approach of a responsible society where the responsibility works both ways … both down and upwards.

    • tracey 1.1

      OR parties could grow up. Understand they need 61 seats to form a govt and stop feeding BS to the public that anything less is a Mandate.

      OR parties could not get their only potential ally’s motives so wrong by judgung them against their own morality.

    • AB 1.2

      “retain the sensible economic policy with a more humane approach”
      Lol. If it’s inhumane it’s not sensible.
      The sort of weird schizophrenia inherent in your statement is why we need a new people-centred economics.

    • mpledger 1.3

      If we want stable govt then we want parties that are willing to work together which means them having broadly similar goals and ideals.

      The only reason that NZF was the kingmaker was because the Greens and National are poles apart on environmental issues. And as much as National wanted the Greens to be their Kingmakers, the Greens weren’t having it.

      I don’t see any good in making parties who are in disharmony work together – their govt will just fall apart.

    • Hanswurst 1.4

      This is how it works in Germany I gather and sounds much more sensible than the current circus.

      1. Here in Germany, it is currently leading to a much bigger “circus”.
      2. In spite of that, it isn’t viewed here as being anything like the circus that the shallow NZ media kicked the NZ coalition talks up to be.
      3. In Germany, the government has not always contained the largest party in parliament, and there is, in fact, no stipulation as to how or by whom a coalition or minority government should be formed beyond the ability to command a majority in the Bundestag.
      4. If you compare the 2017 elections in Germany with those in NZ, and come to the conclusion that the former is in any way, shape or form more “sensible” than the latter, you are absolutely f***ing nuts.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.5

      sensible economic policy

      Why the fuck would they vote for the National Party then? What’s sensible about malnutrition and homelessness?

      Stop trying to dictate what our democracy looks like and learn how to not be a shit government.

      • Ian 1.5.1

        The countdown has begun.your team is now in charge and its time to put your money where your mouth is.I would love you to prove me wrong that your nothing but piss and wind.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 1.5.1.1

          🙄

          I’ll just keep doing what I’m doing – private enterprise – and let the government put my money where their mouth is.

          As a Green voter, I expect they’ll disappoint me in various ways from time to time. I certainly won’t be judging them on the basis of anything you have to say, because every single thing you say turns out to be false.

          Although that note of bitterness in your comment does seem quite authentic.

        • Robert Guyton 1.5.1.2

          Countdown?
          Pfffffft!
          It’s full steam ahead for the Left, un-ravelling, un-doing, un-blocking, un-tangling the appalling mess made by the Right over the past 9 years – tally-ho, chaps, give it everything!

          • Ian 1.5.1.2.1

            Watch out for the steel bar hidden in the gorse jump .The horse will need lots of stamina and protection.
            I would only race her at the big events.watch out for the side bets.

        • Patricia Bremner 1.5.1.3

          Ian, small item. “Wrong that your nothing” is incorrect.

          Should be “Wrong that you’re nothing” Short for “you are nothing”

          Yes a countdown has begun, to an implosion of Nats.

          • Ian 1.5.1.3.1

            Sweet dreams

            • WILD KATIPO 1.5.1.3.1.1

              Ian 1.5.1.3.1
              21 October 2017 at 9:24 pm
              Sweet dreams

              There will be infighting and disarray within National because of this loss ,… and the pressure will be intensified because of vested interests from Big Business ,- notwithstanding also a rising tide of public opinion and outrage at just how much they have lost as a result of neo liberalism. You seem very , very poorly informed of the measures that both Adern and Peters are planning to dismantle it.

              This is the beginning of the end for 33 years of avarice and greed.

              We were the test case / guinea pigs for the neo liberal experiment , – it now looks like we will be the first to not only abandon it , – but legislate against it.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.6

      Somehow the voters need to retain the fact that if you don’t have at least 61 seats you can whinge and cry and weep and wail to yourselves and your betters can laugh at you. Like now.

      😆

    • I think the ground rules for MMP need to be changed from “Lets get together and form a government” to “we are the largest party and would you like to join us in Government”.

      No, we definitely do not need that as that would be ignoring the wishes of the majority.

      This is how it works in Germany I gather and sounds much more sensible than the current circus.

      Germany puts together coalitions the same way we do – through negotiation. Just because the largest party didn’t make government doesn’t make it a circus. Ensuring that the largest party is always in government would make NZ a dictatorship though.

      Somehow the voters need to retain the sensible economic policy


      There was never anything sensible about National’s economic policies. They set us up for a major crash with all the private debt that they’ve encouraged through the housing bubble – which was the only thing keeping our economy going.

    • silvertuatara 1.8

      I think that your comment could only really be considered arguable if voting in NZ was compulsory. As it stands the total number of votes cast in 2017 is well short of the total eligible voters (3,569,820 enrolled voters http://www.elections.org.nz/research-statistics/enrolment-statistics-council) estimated as 92.40% of total persons that were eligible to vote)

      Only 2,602,689 persons voted (http://www.elections.org.nz/news-media/new-zealand-2017-general-election-official-results)

      So if you take estimated eligible voters (registered or unregistered) you get approx 3,863,442 people whom could have voted. This means that:-

      1,260,751 people did not vote in 2017’s election which is 118, 677 in excess of the 1,152,075 people that party voted National, and means that roughly 32.63% of the possible eligible voters in 2017 did not even cast a vote.

      Make voting compulsory and then maybe you could put a case forward for your opinion, since you have no idea of who the 1,260,751 persons whom did not cast their vote lie on the political spectrum and who they would have supported.

  2. Barfly 2

    Wasn’t there a recommendation from a high powered inquiry to reduce the threshold to 4%? Collins “crushed” that –

    Pity for National no mates if the new government takes up the recommendations from that –

    Threshold 4% and no coat tailing.

    • mikesh 2.1

      Yes. The National Party may have shot themselves in the foot with their venal refusal to implement the recommendations of the Electoral Commission a few years ago. The Opportunities Party may well have supported them had they made it into parliament; the extra 1.3% of the vote they needed to reach 4% may have been forthcoming with the lower threshold.

      Poetic justice, perhaps?

    • Patricia Bremner 2.2

      So true Barfly.

  3. David C 3

    IMHO DPF has it spot on. He just doesnt go far enough.

    If either Greens of WinstonFirst got 4.9% this time around then Bill would still be in the big chair rather than packing up his office.

    What chance has NZF without Winston at the wheel?
    Jones or Mark as party leader during an election? LOL

    When Labour has a capable leader the Greens are a 5-7% party. If Nats target them in the next 3 years it will only take one serious misstep to push them to a 4% party.

    and remembering that National has a huge war chest to spend and 40 something MPs to preach the word. $20 mil a year in tax payer funding too.

    • Barfly 3.1

      Threshold 4% and no coat tailing.

      Cry me a river

      • David C 3.1.1

        barfly.
        Is that the way MMP is done on the planet you live on?

        • Barfly 3.1.1.1

          David C now that National can’t crush the recommendations of the revue of MMP would you care to wager that the new government will implement them?

          Please do try to keep up.

    • AB 3.2

      In fact DPF doesnt go far enough. Step 1 is to get NZF and Green below the threshold. But if they are ambitious for NZ and truly believe in personal responsibility, the pursuit of excellence and natural rule by those who have demonstrated their intrinsic superiority by being wealthy, then the obvious next step is to drive Labour below 5% too. This delivers permanent National Party rule and the proper order of things.

      • Andrea 3.2.1

        “permanent National Party rule and the proper order of things.”

        Until we all become fed up with stagnation and ho-hum and the routine slide down the international measures of excellence – then we’ll vote for progress again.

        The proper order of things…

        And – if your suggestion is sincere – this is not some wet-weather game of ‘Beggar My Neighbour’. This is a country, with a population having dreams, ambitions, and expectations beyond enduring petty little people playing to annihilate legitimate political expressions.

        That kind of thinking belongs with robber barons and other arrogances. Time we grew out of it.

        • Anne 3.2.1.1

          @ Andrea
          I think AB is responding to one of our resident rwnjs – David C @ 3. He/she is being facetious.

    • Philg 3.3

      David Big c or lttle C. If, if, if if. FF, ff,ff. …lol Ff.

  4. jcuknz 4

    I never suggested that this time National had a mandate but even if you add the LabGrn totals they had the majority. Merkell is returning to power with less than what just Labour got over here, such is the fragmentation of German politics.
    National deserve to be on the outer if we believe what an adjacent thread tells us because they didn’t see the writing on the wall, the mood of the country for a more humane implementaion in looking after the people.

    As for the opinions about the media bias expressed elsewhere today ….they are typical one sided nonsense about an industry whose front people seem to be very much biased towards the left which I think is quite justified … though without TV I only hear what National Radio put out … while others who largely pick up from TV could form an opposite view.

    • I never suggested that this time National had a mandate but even if you add the LabGrn totals they had the majority.

      So? What counts is who has a majority in Parliament. That’s who has a mandate to govern, and pretty clearly that mandate is with the people who are going to form the next government, not with the outgoing one. “But we’re the biggest party” counts for shit if you don’t have 61 seats.

    • red-blooded 4.2

      If the Nats had the majority, they would be forming the government. They never had the majority, they just had the largest single party. They weren’t big enough to govern on their own – our system has never delivered that outcome – but these arrogant guys and gals thought they had a good shot at it and ran a “don’t vote for a coalition, just give us the keys to the House and trust us to run things on our own” campaign. They did their best to crush NZF and that was a mistake.

  5. RTM 5

    and today on the kiwiblog general debate thread you have people calling for the assassination of winston peters, on the grounds that he is a ‘terrorist’, and getting upticked. bit of a worry…

    • TootingPopularFront 5.1

      It would be interesting to hear Netsafe’s position on such posts, they have form closing down debate on other blogs after all, Martyn Bradbury is still going through a case with them I believe.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 5.2

      What a bunch of sad poor losers National Party followers are. Even George Gregan would be a little bit embarrassed at this level of whinging.

    • Which would actually make them terrorists and thus they should be locked up. They should certainly be reported to the police. Simply making death threats is illegal.

    • David C 5.4

      RTM.
      Got a link for that comment?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.4.1

        Do your own homework, lazy. Took me two minutes to find it.

        • David C 5.4.1.1

          OAB.

          I have just read a comment where “terrorist” and “assassination” are in the same paragraph but that cannot be what RTM refers to., so I am none the wiser.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 5.4.1.1.1

            Don’t worry, comprehension hasn’t been that much use to you thus far: I’m sure you can survive without it a while longer.

          • Philg 5.4.1.1.2

            David little C, or big C. You are in the wrong place Try Farrar and Kiwi blog

    • Patricia Bremner 5.5

      That is disgusting and should be sent to the police, as threats to kill is a crime.

  6. In Vino 6

    As I understand it, the same situation already exists in Australia. Labour is the largest single party in the Australian parliament, and, by the Right-wingers’ logic being applied here, should have been announced ‘Winners’ and asked to form the next Government. But funnily enough, the Australian Labour Party is on the Opposition Benches because it is outnumbered by a Right-Wing Coalition. But, of course, when the Right Wing does such a thing, there is no mention of “Coalition of Losers” in Rupert Murdoch’s biased media… that honour was reserved for our Left-Wing coalition just emerging over here.
    The utter hogwash needs to be exposed for what it is. Hypocritical claptrap.

    • AB 6.1

      Liberals have 60, Labor has 69. It’s the National’s 16 added to the Liberal’s 60 that makes a government.

      • millsy 6.1.1

        Technically, the coalition is the Liberal Party of Australa, The Country Liberal Party (NT), The Liberal National Party (QLD), and the Australian National Party.

        The National Party of Australia is economically more leftist than the Liberal party in some areas, and could in theory do a coalition with the ALP.

  7. Paul Campbell 7

    I was in China until yesterday, I checked in with kiwiblog to see how the other half were taking it …. It was covered in ads in Chinese extolling the virtues of Russia

    • Colville 7.1

      Paul
      Google feeds you relevant ads
      I get hunting suppliers on KB

      • True but the site does have control of the adverts that it allows.

      • Paul Campbell 7.1.2

        I know I just thought it was a wonderful irony that their greed would so much overwhelm their ‘principles’

      • Psycho Milt 7.1.3

        Google feeds you relevant ads

        I know that’s the theory, but when I visit Kiwiblog I get ads claiming Russian and Asian ladies are dying to meet me, which I would have given a relevance ranking of below zero if I had any choice in it. No other sites I visit assume I’m keen to form payment-based sexual relationships.

        EDIT: actually, on reflection, Google’s probably making a fairly accurate assessment of relevance to Kiwiblog’s readership demographic…

        • Incognito 7.1.3.1

          I think Google might still be in the process of ‘calibrating’ your personal profile and they’ll get it right eventually 😉

    • McGrath 7.2

      There is of course some wailing and gnashing of teeth but on the whole I reckon there is ambivalence. A lot of Nat supporters I know (I’m one as well) are actually quite pleased we’re not with Winston. The feeling is that NZF will be below the 5% mark next election and that National would have been right royally shafted with Winston.

      • The feeling is that NZF will be below the 5% mark next election and that National would have been right royally shafted with Winston.

        That’s not a feeling – that’s praying for a miracle. And it would have been NZ1st that would have been shafted by National – same as what happened in 1998.

      • RC 7.2.2

        ” A lot of Nat supporters I know (I’m one as well) are actually quite pleased we’re not with Winston. ”
        If that was true you wouldn’t be burbling shit about NZF

    • Philg 7.3

      Hi Paul C. Really? Tell me more.

      • Paul Campbell 7.3.1

        sorry I didn’t save the links (didn’t really want to click on those banners …. there were 3-4 from the same source, one at the top and the rest sprinkled down the front page). I’ll be back in a few weeks, I’ll see if it happens again

  8. McGrath 8

    I reckon the big winner in all of this is the Greens. NZF has proven to be a poison chalice in the past and is likely to do so again by primarily poisoning Labour.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1

      All those poor National Party farmers thought they had a monopoly on poisoning things and are worried about their market share. They’re projecting. Like you.

    • NZ1st worked fine with Labour before which did, as a matter of fact, surprise me. After the 1998 breakdown between NZ1st and National I to thought it was all Winston’s fault. But since then I’ve actually looked at what happened and the fault was National all along.

  9. Philg 9

    National canabalizes the Right and wonders why they have no friends? Lol.

  10. starboard 10

    18 months I give the coalition of the doomed..then implosion time.
    Nats back in to clean up…again.

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