English rising anti-fascism

Written By: - Date published: 10:55 am, August 8th, 2024 - 68 comments
Categories: polycrisis, uk politics - Tags: , , ,

This is more hope than I have felt about humans in a long time. After two weeks of fascist-driven rioting and looting across England, that targeted Muslims, immigrants of colour, and refugees, ‘ordinary people’ got out in the streets to protect those being targeted.

Thousands of people turned out across the country to stop fascists targeting solicitor’s office, mosques, community facilities, shops.

Brighton anti-fascists surrounding police who are surrounding the fascists.

Even the Daily Mail gets it, calling the general public who took to the street anti-fascists.

Incredible.

There are some tough, complex conversations to be had and not just in the UK. Today the Brits will rightly focus on restoring hope and faith. In New Zealand, we are at enough distance to start naming the issues.

New Zealand isn’t magically immune from fascism

Fascism is rising in a number of places in the world and we’re not paying enough attention. It’s easy to think it can’t happen here, but we are already well into setting the scene.

I’m not saying the right are fascists (liberals and leftists really need to stop saying they are because it renders the term politically impotent). I’m saying that if the political right had to choose between giving up power or taking a path towards fascism, there is a high chance they would choose the latter.

We aren’t special, we are like every other neoliberal nation who rewards the wealthy while making more people more poor. We have active and intentional politics in New Zealand that serves to build on dissatisfaction and target the politically vulnerable rather than the current socioeconomic system and those who have the most to gain from it.

The fascists are completely and utterly wrong

Fascists in the UK are small in number. Larger in number are the people who are stressed about life under neoliberalism and who find narratives about immigrants taking their jobs, houses, hospital beds compelling. The fascists themselves are using the polycrisis to stir up racism (because that’s what fascists do), but there is nothing true about their politics and activism.

Of note is that the power holders supporting the fascist rioters are not working class people doing it hard, but right wing politicians, media commenters, and grifters like Tommy Robinson (currently tweeting while on an arrest-avoiding holiday in a five start resort in Cyprus)

Talking about immigration

Progressives have to find ways of talking about immigration settings, the housing crisis, jobs/unemployment/AI/automation, poverty, cost of living, that doesn’t centre a simplistic suppression of all debate about immigration settings. Because not only is that a dead end, many people no longer believe the idea that immigration isn’t an issue. And those people are the ones turning towards the fascists (and who they don’t see as fascists). What’s the alternative conversation we can have with them?

Changing the narrative

If the current narrative is ‘working class people are harmed by immigration’, what can that be replaced with that also changes the lives of working class people? It’s not enough to say “the enemy arrives by limousine not by small boats” and then not do anything about the people in the limousines. Our current narratives are insufficient.

We need politics and stories that are attractive to a bigger range of people. I’m not talking political centrism. I’m saying we have to produce viable green/left solutions (and we are currently failing at this). What do we want instead of the neoliberal shit show, and how do we create it?

Talking about immigration settings at the same time as protecting immigrants would be a good start. What would New Zealand housing look like if we’d had that conversation at the start of the Key years?

In New Zealand, the proto-fascists/racists are targeting Māori and Pasifica, and here too we can use a both/and approach. Māori place names and bringing people along by helping with pronunciation rather than calling them racist when they complain is an easy example.

Stop thinking we are completely right and everyone who disagrees with us is wrong. Find ways to engage politically with people before they get to the point of thinking the fascists have a point.

The polycrisis

All of this sits within the polycrisis, and the polycrisis sits within the climate/ecology crises. It’s not sane to talk about any of this without understanding that if we don’t drop GHGs fast in the next five years, we will be cementing in fascism as the prelude to the collapse of civilisation. And that will be within the lifetime of many people currently alive.

The good news about the polycrisis is that the system change approaches are very good at operating across the various crises.

* * *

68 comments on “English rising anti-fascism ”

  1. James Simpson 1

    This is an issue which we on the left have failed to deal with over the past decade.

    The hard right rioters in the UK and in the main white working class males. A demographic which was once a cornerstone of the union and Labour movement. But those working class people are now gravitating to the the right.

    In the US Trump's rallys are full of white working class people. People who in the previous 60 years joined a union and voted for the Democrats. His support from those people in the Rust Belt is what got him into office in 2016, and are his ticket to victory this year.

    There has been a monumental realignment in US politics where Trump is now seen as the home for disillusioned working class Americans who blame their problems on immigrants.

    How did we get here?

    • weka 1.1

      I seem to remember some push back against the idea that Trump supporters were overwhelmingly working class. I don't think polling by vote showed that. So we can add MSM and SM mis/dis information.

      But generally I agree this is a class issue, and the left is just really bad at addressing it.

      • Cricklewood 1.1.1

        Probably if you were to look at it on a more granular level Trumps working class support comes from areas that have relied or rely on extractive industries for jobs.

        To a degree similar is happening here with the Westcoast which has been tradtionally left. Its all well and good shutting down mines and other extractive industry be it coal, spagnum or timber a cohesive plan to keep people employed in well paying jobs needs to be in place alongside. So far here we talk about tourism which pays poorly, puts massive strain on local infrastructure and is argueably just as extractive if you start looking at airtravel etc.

        • weka 1.1.1.1

          thanks, that's helpful analysis.

          What it looks like to me is that those on the left not so affected by neoliberalism have been content to let it ride, and have relied on the ideologies rather than the pragmatics. The West Coast is a good example, and there are plenty of others.

          We can't have it both ways, we can't say oh we want worker rights and neoliberalism. They're fundamentally incompatible. As is NL and the environment.

        • That_guy 1.1.1.2

          My understanding is that it's been looked at, and by far the most accurate predictor of being a Trump support is race. Across all classes, across both sexes.

          He does not have a lock on working class or any other class.

      • Belladonna 1.1.2

        This is a bit of a long read/deep dive into analysis of the US people who are Trump supporters. It's not as simple as 'working class' – because people in that economic grouping can (and do) have very different political allegiances.

        https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publication/the-five-types-trump-voters

    • SPC 1.2

      A myth. The presumption is that because workers are not college educated they are working class. They get trained up in local (non union) work because they are local. That is the way of the provincial areas of many "Red" states. The men do not see themselves as working class, but as real Americans – anti-liberal and anti-union.

      The margin of victory in the Rust Belt in 2016 was negligible (and based on Clinton doing little campaigning there – taking it for granted).

      In the UK, managing the public via nationalism (UK Independence anti-EU and anti-migrant) is as old as Oswald and Enoch Powell. The Junkers/business elite cultivated the tactic against the left back in the 30’s.

      The Truss global market island elite and Farange little Englander popuilism two-step is the legacy of Murdoch and the dystopian future of the Muskorg.

      • James Simpson 1.2.1

        You can call it a myth if you like, but low paid white Americans voted for Trump in massive numbers in 2016, and the left still hasn't worked out why. If they had, it wouldn't be happening again in 2024.

        According to the American National Election Studies, in 2016:

        White Voters earning under 30k voted in favour of Trump 53.2% to 36.5%

        White Voters earning over 30k but under 50k voted in favour of Trump 57.5% to 36.2%

        White Voters earning over $175k but under 250k voted in favour of Clinton 54.9% to 36.4%

        White voters earning over 250k voted in favour of Clinton 49.6% to 43.4%

        • weka 1.2.1.1

          Please supply a link for that

        • SPC 1.2.1.2

          At least you have stopped claiming those whites on low wages can be described as working class.

          1. Aggregates …. the red area voting centres in the Mid-West states – they are not in the urban areas, where people identify as real Americans, not urban liberals.

          The cultural divide.

          2. As for the south. They and some western GOP states use the federal MW which is $7.25 an hour (blue states to double this $15 an hour), so where are the wage rates held down – GOP states. The aggregate figures are heavily influenced by these lower wage states.

          White Americans and black Americans voting Democrat.

          A race divide.

          These "real Americans" are anti-union being conditioned to see unions as part of the urban liberal Democrat America.

        • aj 1.2.1.3

          You can call it a myth if you like, but low paid white Americans voted for Trump in massive numbers in 2016, and the left still hasn't worked out why. If they had, it wouldn't be happening again in 2024.

          "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning." ~ Warren Buffett

          Adam Curtis talks to PoliticsJoe on the fall of the Soviet Union and worrying parallels with modern Britain. It was in 2022, the Truss experiment and since then everything is just worse.

          This interesting 45 minute discussion is relevant to your post, Weka. Curtis discusses how NL economics leave a lot of people behind who don't have solutions and can't find politicians with solutions they can trust who can speak to them and give them any hope. In fact policies that created the conditions they are have been left in are just doubled down.

          Adam Curtis, hello, Hi how are you., glad to have you on. The union is on the verge of collapse the economy is on the verge of collapse and Elites manipulating crises to enrich themselves off the state. That sounds like a description of post-covered Britain but it equally applies to late 20th century Russia the subject of your latest series of films Trauma Zone . . . .

          "Politics is never really about reality, what politics is about is telling you a story that makes sense of the reality you are living through it at the moment it may be in a way a strange fantasy but is sort of makes sense of what you're living through it at the moment. The story they are telling us at the moment do not makes sense of reality, what they actually do is they make it weirder and worse"

          • gsays 1.2.1.3.1

            Great conversation thanks aj.

            Adam Curtis is one of those rare journos that can take complex ideas and communicate them well.

            As a precursor to the above conversation is his Century of the Self. (I get you've probably seen it, I mention it for any foll reading this.)

            How the rise of consumerism over the last 100 years has meant many billions of dollars telling us how important and legitimate our individual wants are.

            A lack of a collective will helps explain how we aren't overcoming neo liberalism.

            A link to part one:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DDnPmg0R1M04&ved=2ahUKEwjS0JTdoOaHAxXn4zgGHV1NIZQQwqsBegQIEBAF&usg=AOvVaw3P58oiNUF_W7_xwIunNQRY

          • Jenny 1.2.1.3.2

            For human beings, perception is everything

            "Politics is never really about reality, what politics is about is telling you a story that makes sense of the reality…..

  2. Anne 2

    And here we have our own near-fascist projectionist railing against that mowree woman, Deborah Ngawere-Packer who has dared to stand up and tell it like it is:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/debbie-ngawera-packer-on-a-mission-to-stir-up-discontent-barry-soper/P44MPMAWQNFU7PBXWFVIDSTGEY/#google_vignette

  3. Mike the Lefty 3

    It was actually somewhat funny to see that in Brighton, the right-wing louts had to beg the police for protection from the anti-racist protestors who surrounded them. Not so brave and cocksure when they are outnumbered.

    I also note that in reports of the trials of those already arrested and tried for this violence, the guilty seemed to have had a complete change of heart and are apologising for their crime and basically saying they don't know what came over them.

    I'll tell them what came over them. They listened to people who have a vested interest in violence, chaos and disorder, the kind of people that lead political parties like Reform UK. I hope they actually did learn from their mistakes.

    • weka 3.1

      I hope so too. I'm not a fan of prisons generally, but in this case it's good to see the sentences being a decent length, simply for the deterrent value.

      • Obtrectator 3.1.1

        Sentences of the same severity as those meted out to Roger Hallam &co?

        https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/jul/18/five-just-stop-oil-supporters-jailed-over-protest-that-blocked-m25

        Jolly well ought to be.

        • weka 3.1.1.1

          or the other way round (let JSO people out). Hallam and co are more of a threat to the state.

          The neoliberal capitalists have more in common with fascists than with those fighting to save all of life. I don’t mean the capitalists are fascist, I mean they fear those who love nature far more. Capitalism and nature are ultimately incompatible, capitalism and fascism aren’t.

          https://x.com/wekatweets/status/1818493284672848198

      • joe90 3.1.2

        sentences being a decent length, simply for the deterrent value.

        Nope. Prisons are chock-full of high tariff offenders who gave little thought to the length of sentence they faced.

        Swift and certain, though…

        .

        Britain's most senior prosecutor has questioned whether heavy sentences given to last summer's rioters worked as an effective deterrence, challenging the received wisdom from senior judges and politicians.

        Keir Starmer QC, the director of public prosecutions, said the speed with which rioters and looters were brought before the courts was far more powerful in preventing reoffending than the severity of sentences.

        […]

        "I was not so persuaded the sentences in and of themselves were the real issue," he said. "For me it was the speed [of processing cases] that I think may have played some small part in bringing the situation back under control.

        "I don't think they [rioters] would have thought: 'Oh well, am I going to get 12 months or 18 months?' I don't think people gamble on the length of sentence, particularly. They gamble on: 'Am I going to get caught? Am I going to get sentenced and sent to prison?' And if the answer is: 'I'm now watching on the television some other people who had been caught 24 hours or 48 hours after they were on the streets with us' – I think that's a very powerful message."

        https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/03/riot-prosecutions-sentences-keir-starmer

    • adam 3.2

      What did the POMS they expect when they lock up journalists

    • Jenny 3.3

      "I'll tell them what came over them. They listened to people who have a vested interest in violence, chaos and disorder…." Mike the Lefty @3

      'People' like this…

      https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/aug/08/elon-musk-shares-faked-telegraph-story-rioters-falklands-camps

      Elon Musk shared a fake Telegraph article claiming Keir Starmer was considering sending far-right rioters to “emergency detainment camps” in the Falklands.

      Musk deleted his post after about 30 minutes but a screenshot captured by Politics.co.uk suggests it had garnered nearly two million views before it was deleted….

      Musk has not apologised for sharing the fake report, but has continued to share material criticising the UK government and law enforcement authorities’ responses to the riots…..

      On Thursday, Musk shared a Sky News interview in which Stephen Parkinson, the director of public prosecutions in England and Wales, said police officers were scouring social media for material inciting racial hatred. “This is actually happening,” Musk said. In a separate post referring to the same clip, Musk called Parkinson “The Woke Stasi”…..

      Musk has been embroiled in a row with Keir Starmer and British enforcement authorities since he claimed in response to the anti-immigration protests in England and Northern Ireland that “civil war is inevitable” and that the police response had been “one-sided”.

      The prime minister's spokesperson said this week that there was “no justification” for those comments. In response, Musk has repeatedly targeted Starmer on his platform, including branding him “two-tier Keir”.

      ….. He rebranded it as X last year. There has been a string of controversies about the direction the platform has taken under his leadership, including accusations that he is not serious enough about removing harmful content.

  4. I’m not saying the right are fascists … if the political right had to choose between giving up power or taking a path towards fascism, there is a high chance they would choose the latter.

    We are already on the path. The myth of fascism is "blood and soil" ie. racial superiority and nationalism (quietly sponsored by amoral elites and faceless corporations). Racist narratives were a major factor in the last election and this government is continuing to trade on vile cheap shots against Māori. Even John Key has tried to dissuade the Nats from this shit.

    Let us never, never, never forget that the very first editorial in the @nzherald was calling on white New Zealanders to fight Māori
    I'm not kidding
    That's why this is no surprise #nzpol

    https://x.com/CitizenBomber/status/1821276371974537292

  5. Rotherham Remembers 5

    A very quick search of TheStandard finds precisely zero articles or posts about the Rotherham rape gangs, who disproportionately targeted white, working-class females.

    However, within days of riots that are at their heart based on a reaction to exactly that sort of predatory behaviour, The Standard finds it necessary to post that the rioters are wrong.

    These people aren't rioting because they were born racist. They are rioting because they are seeing the country they knew and loved changed before their eyes by people who have come from other countries for advancement, seldom used legal migration routes, and then have the temerity to want their new country to resemble the old.

    I will put this into class terms because I despise identity.

    Imagine a socialist commune that prospers and is internally stable. Surrounding this socialist commune are multiple capitalist societies. People from those capitalist societies see the happiness within the socialist commune and enter the socialist commune. However, once within the socialist commune, they then introduce capitalist, neoliberal practices. Those who were socialist riot that they didn't want capitalism in their commune, and The Standard posts that perhaps they should be more accepting of different class ideologies!

    And I'll end with a statement about fascism. Fascism is not the opposite of socialism; it was called national socialist for a reason. The true opposite of socialism is libertarianism/objectivism and I don't see antirand or antiobjectivists around

    • Descendant Of Smith 5.1

      The majority of group based groomers of young children in the UK remain white. Where is their anger against that? Besides we have our own abuse cases to write about on which there are many posts.

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/15/child-sexual-abuse-gangs-white-men-home-office-report

      Using those cases as an excuse to tarnish all immigrants, to demonise a whole population, most of whom are law-abiding is however a tool of the fascist. Many of those abusers are in jail as they should be.

      However, within days of riots that are at their heart based on a reaction to exactly that sort of predatory behaviour, The Standard finds it necessary to post that the rioters are wrong.

      As one of the mods will no doubt point out The Standard doesn't find anything necessary. It has no mind of its own. Individuals posted. You could have posted at any time about Rotherham. Why did you not? If you think the rioters are right say so and why?

      If your reckons are right why then did so many people come out against them yesterday?

      • Psycho Milt 5.1.1

        The majority of group based groomers of young children in the UK remain white.

        Well, duh. The overwhelming majority of the UK population is white. It's a simple fact that the male Pakistani Muslim population is grossly over-represented.

        • SPC 5.1.1.1

          Sort of irrelevant – given

          1. the recent attacker was born in the UK to Rwandan parents (refugees not economic migrants)
          2. it was an action of violence, not grooming
          • Psycho Milt 5.1.1.1.1

            True, but it wasn't me that raised the subject, I'm just pointing out the problem with it as an argument.

            • Descendant Of Smith 5.1.1.1.1.1

              The point was that those creating and encouraging rioting aren't getting upset about the white groomers.

              It isn't really about the children.

              • Psycho Milt

                The point was idle rhetoric, yes. As is often the case with rhetoric, the reality exists and people aren't blind to it.

                • weka

                  not that idle, the point was concluded with this,

                  Using those cases as an excuse to tarnish all immigrants, to demonise a whole population, most of whom are law-abiding is however a tool of the fascist. Many of those abusers are in jail as they should be.

                  which seems on point to me.

                  • Psycho Milt

                    True, but it's also true that just ignoring that gross over-representation, or worse, ignoring the crimes themselves (as the police did because they didn't want to be accused of racism), encourages people in those areas to support the parties that will actually recognise the problem and propose doing something about it.

    • roblogic 5.2

      These particular riots were triggered by a horrific violent crime by one individual… unfortunately the political class have been ignoring the sentiments of the British public for decades… neoliberal politicians prefer race riots over mass movements based on class.

    • SPC 5.3

      They are rioting because they are seeing the country they knew and loved changed before their eyes by people who have come from other countries for advancement, seldom used legal migration routes, and then have the temerity to want their new country to resemble the old.

      I will put this into class terms because I despise identity.

      No, you support action to impose conformity on outsiders.

      Those in the UK without documentation (can be obtained on 20 years residence) is less than a million. It is less than 50,000 pa on average (as at the moment).

      It is far less than legal migration each year.

      However, within days of riots that are at their heart based on a reaction to exactly that sort of predatory behaviour

      A teen born in the UK attacked girls with a knife. The violence was orchestrated by lies on social media and then organised for political purposes.

      The level of legal migration can be an indication of neo-liberal policy, the distraction to the boat migrants/refugees is created by the capitalist elite to posture as a nationalist (Brexit etc) as Trump does – the right, Tories and Reform in a dualistic lockstep, as per Brexit.

    • roblogic 5.4

      Your definition of fascism as "national socialism" is wrong… that is a misleading label used by an evil far right movement.

      • Belladonna 5.4.1

        Perhaps you could share your own definition of fascism, then.

        The association with national socialism is historically correct.

        Nazi Party = Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei = National Socialist German Workers Party.

        • mpledger 5.4.1.1

          That's like saying The Taxpayers Union represents taxpayers and is a union because that's what they chose to call themselves. It represents the interests of a very small number of very rich people who fund it and is a union of nothing.

          • Belladonna 5.4.1.1.1

            I think that you'll find that no-one now (or at any time since the 1930s) describes themself as National Socialists – unless they are trying to establish linkages to the Nazi party.

            There is no point in trying to break down the name into component parts – and claiming it's not relevant – it's what was used historically.

            Or do you have current examples of people self-describing as National Socialists who are not a fascist party?

            • roblogic 5.4.1.1.1.1

              Just because fuckwit Nazis use a phrase doesn't make them fucking socialists!!!

              Per my other comments, fascists are motivated by “blood and soil”, i.e. myths of racial superiority and militaristic nationalism. The Nazi party allied with big business to smash unions.

              For their part, businesses welcomed the Nazis’ promises to suppress the left. On 20 February 1933, Hitler and Goering met with a large group of industrialists when Hitler declared that democracy and business were incompatible and that the workers needed to be dragged away from socialism. He promised bold action to protect their businesses and property from communism. The industrialists – including leading figures from I.G. Farben, Hoesch, Krupp, Siemens, Allianz and other senior mining and manufacturing groups – then contributed more than two million Reichsmarks to the Nazi election fund, with Goering tellingly suggesting that this would probably be the last election for a hundred years. Business leadership happily jettisoned democracy to rid Germany of socialism and to smash organised labour.

              https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302

              • Belladonna

                Do you have any conception of what National Socialism actually is?
                Or are you just pulling your own definition our of your head?

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_(disambiguation)

                Specifically in relation to the Nazi Party

                “The term “National Socialism” arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of socialism, as an alternative to both Marxist international socialism and free-market capitalism. Nazism rejected the Marxist concepts of class conflict and universal equality, opposed cosmopolitan internationalism, and sought to convince all parts of the new German society to subordinate their personal interests to the “common good”, accepting political interests as the main priority of economic organisation, which tended to match the general outlook of collectivism or communitarianism rather than economic socialism. ”

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

                • roblogic

                  Whatever. Their form of "social welfare" was incinerating 6 million victims.

                  RWNJs want to poison the word “socalism” with guilt by association, I’m not buying it.

                  • Belladonna

                    Just like Stalin's version of 'socialism' was to murder 6+ million victims – under the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

                    Pretty difficult to argue that socialism hasn't already been thoroughly poisoned.

                  • Belladonna

                    Gosh, your apparent belief that the mass-murder of more than six million people under Stalin is the result of a 'functioning social security net' – beggars belief.

                    Pravda would be proud of you.

                    • roblogic

                      My use of "socialism" is things like building roads, feeding hungry children, building houses and hospitals.

                      Only right wing liars want to equate that with mass murder.

                      The CIA propaganda is working.

  6. Descendant Of Smith 6

    The use of actual left and socialist narratives is a cynical but effective way of convincing working class people to vote against their own interests. The Taxpayers Union is the most obvious mis-use in New Zealand.

    Making working class people believe they are middle class is another, give us employers tax cuts so we can lift your wages another. Tis propaganda.

    To say that Hitler understood the value of language would be an enormous understatement. Propaganda played a significant role in his rise to power. To that end, he paid lip service to the tenets suggested by a name like National Socialist German Workers’ Party, but his primary—indeed, sole—focus was on achieving power whatever the cost and advancing his racist, anti-Semitic agenda. After the failure of the Beer Hall Putsch, in November 1923, Hitler became convinced that he needed to utilize the teetering democratic structures of the Weimar government to attain his goals.

    Over the following years the brothers Otto and Gregor Strasser did much to grow the party by tying Hitler’s racist nationalism to socialist rhetoric that appealed to the suffering lower middle classes.

    https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists

  7. ianmac 8

    There seems to be a Worldwide move to have to declare belongingness to perverse groups sometimes extreme ones at that. So sad that there is apparently a need for such declarations.

    Has it always been like that or just because of the internet? Or Covid? Or Trumpism?

  8. Psycho Milt 10

    …many people no longer believe the idea that immigration isn’t an issue. And those people are the ones turning towards the fascists (and who they don’t see as fascists). What’s the alternative conversation we can have with them?

    For a start, we could stop calling them racists, fascists, bigots etc for having recognised that a problem actually is a problem and wanting something done about it. All that's achieved so far is to dramatically increase the vote share of far-right political parties, so it would make sense to stop doing it.

    • weka 10.1

      yes, I largely agree with this. But we still need to be able to call the fascists fascist. You'll be aware of the latest shitfight in the UK GC community in the past month, over GC women, some high profile, attending or speaking at the Tommy Robinson rally.

      Aja wrote something interesting a few weeks that I've been meaning to go back and find, about class. Her take is different from LW analysis, but she understands that the enemy isn't migrants and refugees, it's the people in positions of socioeconomic power that are fucking over those with less money/power.

      Here's the problem. That should be the common ground between GCs like Aja and GCFs. But there is so much bad blood built in years of hostility that it's almost impossible to have the conversation. That internicine conflict is driven in large part by social media manipulation (the platforms themselves, and the ability of nefarious third party agents).

      On the GCF side, there is a chronic problem with thinking we can just punch back and that will somehow improve things (a problem the liberal left also has). I get hard pushback when I try and talk with GCFs about the need to no engage in lateral violence. Heck, we can't even talk about lateral violence in the abstract now.

      So the GCFs will blame the GCs for siding with the right, and the GCs will blame the GCFs for ostracising them. Both are right, and both are wrong.

      Meanwhile the neolibs are laughing all the way to the bank. And the actual fascists, the ones both on the media and on the streets in the past fortnight, are I imagine pretty pleased with how this battle has gone.

      The thing that concerns me most in that, is the degree to which most people on SM simply cannot form a coherent argument based on skilled assessment of evidence. Populism for the win. Fuck the Musks and Zuckerbergs who are in it for teh ego and power and will destroy us all.

      • weka 10.1.1

        maybe we need an inbetween word, for the people who supported teh burning of a library. I think it's not useful to call them fascist, because we need to be able to call people back from that brink and calling them fascist just makes them say yeah, nah, get fucked.

        But the point you are making I think is that we have to have a left wing conversation about immigration, and large parts of the left have made that impossible. Terrible own goal on multiple levels.

        • Belladonna 10.1.1.1

          Rioters in any context seem to be less motivated by political ideology, and more by the desire to just smash things.
          Library-burning isn't solely associated with the right-wing protesters. BLM riots resulted in burned libraries (in Minneapolis); and left-wing protests in France have also resulted in burned out libraries (Metz)

      • Psycho Milt 10.1.2

        But we still need to be able to call the fascists fascist.

        Absolutely. There's a lot of distance between someone who decides to vote for a far-right party because those are the only ones recognising an important problem, and someone who's willing to set fire to a building full of people (which was especially heinous given the Grenfell Tower disaster is a relatively recent event in the UK).

        • Belladonna 10.1.2.1

          So what do you call the rioters (certainly not far-right) who set alight an apartment building in Lyon in the wake of the Nael killing last year?

          https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1785680/French-riots-police-killing-apartment-fire

          Personally, I think that there are murderous thugs in all political extremes.

          • Psycho Milt 10.1.2.1.1

            I call them far-right, because the rioters were mostly Muslims and Islam is a far-right totalitarian ideology as well as a religion.

            • Belladonna 10.1.2.1.1.1

              That's not going to be a popular attitude among the Hamas supporters on TS.

              But, taking this more seriously. I think there is a very big difference between religious extremism and right-wing (or left-wing, for that matter) extremism. They don't come from the same roots at all – and have very different social and economic goals.

  9. joe90 11

    fafo

    @implausibleblog

    Sir Thomas Winsor, former Chief Inspector of Constabulary,

    "It's often said that noisy marches in relation to Gaza have been policed differently to these riots. Yes, of course they have"

    "Because noisy marches are not setting fire to hotels, or throwing rocks to the police or setting fire to police vans"

    "Every time there is a policing operation the police will assess the threats, the harms and the risks involved. If there is more threats, harms and risks, then they'll police it harder"

    "The police were taking a real battering.. Missiles.. Vans being set alight.. The community came out to stand with their friends and their families and their neighbours, who are the police.. To protect the police and to show the police that they have their support"

    https://x.com/implausibleblog/status/1821956582885695586

    This is the moment a woman jailed for violent disorder falls flat on her face after trying to push a burning wheelie bin at cops.

    Stacey Vint, 34, was captured on video trying to shove the bin towards police with riot shields before falling flat on her face.

    Appearing at Teesside Crown Court on Friday Vint, she was jailed for one year and eight months.

    Vint, of Normanby Road, watched on from the public gallery as the clip was played twice to the court.

    She was quickly arrested by police after her position on the ground.

    https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24508731.stacey-vint-jailed-pushing-bin-police-middlesbrough/

  10. SPC 12

    Is Musk a threat to civil society? Is it deliberate and is it part of the Murdoch play to have a business monopoly protected? Is the goal oligarchy?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5ydddy3qzgo

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  • Five ingenious ways people could beat the heat without cranking the AC

    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Daisy Simmons Every summer brings a new spate of headlines about record-breaking heat – for good reason: 2023 was the hottest year on record, in keeping with the upward trend scientists have been clocking for decades. With climate forecasts suggesting that heat waves ...
    1 week ago

  • Interest in agricultural and horticultural products regulatory review welcomed

    Regulation Minister David Seymour, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds, and Food Safety Minister Andrew Hoggard have welcomed interest in the agricultural and horticultural products regulatory review. The review by the Ministry for Regulation is looking at how to speed up the process to get farmers and growers access to the safe, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • Bill to allow online charity lotteries passes first reading

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government is moving at pace to ensure lotteries for charitable purposes are allowed to operate online permanently. Charities fundraising online, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust and local hospices will continue to do ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • Tax exempt threshold changes to benefit startups

    Technology companies are among the startups which will benefit from increases to current thresholds of exempt employee share schemes, Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins and Revenue Minister Simon Watts say. Tax exempt thresholds for the schemes are increasing as part of the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • Getting the healthcare you need, when you need it

    The path to faster cancer treatment, an increase in immunisation rates, shorter stays in emergency departments and quick assessment and treatments when you are sick has been laid out today. Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has revealed details of how the ambitious health targets the Government has set will be ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 hours ago
  • Targeted supports to accelerate reading

    The coalition Government is delivering targeted and structured literacy supports to accelerate learning for struggling readers. From Term 1 2025, $33 million of funding for Reading Recovery and Early Literacy Support will be reprioritised to interventions which align with structured approaches to teaching. “Structured literacy will change the way children ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 hours ago
  • Survivors invited to Abuse in Care national apology

    With two months until the national apology to survivors of abuse in care, expressions of interest have opened for survivors wanting to attend. “The Prime Minister will deliver a national apology on Tuesday 12 November in Parliament. It will be a very significant day for survivors, their families, whānau and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    9 hours ago
  • Rangatahi inspire at Ngā Manu Kōrero final

    Ehara taku toa i te toa takitahi, engari he toa takitini kē - My success is not mine alone but is the from the strength of the many. Aotearoa New Zealand’s top young speakers are an inspiration for all New Zealanders to learn more about the depth and beauty conveyed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    9 hours ago
  • Driving structured literacy in schools

    The coalition Government is driving confidence in reading and writing in the first years of schooling. “From the first time children step into the classroom, we’re equipping them and teachers with the tools they need to be brilliant in literacy. “From 1 October, schools and kura with Years 0-3 will receive ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • Labour’s misleading information is disappointing

    Labour’s misinformation about firearms law is dangerous and disappointing, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee says.   “Labour and Ginny Andersen have repeatedly said over the past few days that the previous Labour Government completely banned semi-automatic firearms in 2019 and that the Coalition Government is planning to ‘reintroduce’ them.   ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Govt takes action on mpox response, widens access to vaccine

    The Government is taking immediate action on a number of steps around New Zealand’s response to mpox, including improving access to vaccine availability so people who need it can do so more easily, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti and Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. “Mpox is obviously a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Next steps agreed for Treaty Principles Bill

    Associate Justice Minister David Seymour says Cabinet has agreed to the next steps for the Treaty Principles Bill. “The Treaty Principles Bill provides an opportunity for Parliament, rather than the courts, to define the principles of the Treaty, including establishing that every person is equal before the law,” says Mr Seymour. “Parliament ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Government unlocking potential of AI

    Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins today announced a programme to drive Artificial Intelligence (AI) uptake among New Zealand businesses. “The AI Activator will unlock the potential of AI for New Zealand businesses through a range of support, including access to AI research experts, technical assistance, AI tools and resources, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Government releases Wairoa flood review findings

    The independent rapid review into the Wairoa flooding event on 26 June 2024 has been released, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell announced today. “We welcome the review’s findings and recommendations to strengthen Wairoa's resilience against future events,” Ms ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Promoting faster payment times for government

    The Government is sending a clear message to central government agencies that they must prioritise paying invoices in a timely manner, Small Business and Manufacturing Minister Andrew Bayly says. Data released today promotes transparency by publishing the payment times of each central government agency. This data will be published quarterly ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Acknowledgement to Kīngi Tuheitia speech

    E te māngai o te Whare Pāremata, kua riro māku te whakaputa i te waka ki waho moana. E te Pirimia tēnā koe.Mr Speaker, it is my privilege to take this adjournment kōrero forward.  Prime Minister – thank you for your leadership. Taupiri te maunga Waikato te awa Te Wherowhero ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Interim fix to GST adjustment rules to support businesses

    Inland Revenue can begin processing GST returns for businesses affected by a historic legislative drafting error, Revenue Minister Simon Watts says. “Inland Revenue has become aware of a legislative drafting error in the GST adjustment rules after changes were made in 2023 which were meant to simplify the process. This ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Strong uptake for cervical screening self-test

    More than 80 per cent of New Zealand women being tested have opted for a world-leading self-test for cervical screening since it became available a year ago. Minister of Health Dr Shane Reti and Associate Minister Casey Costello, in her responsibility for Women’s Health, say it’s fantastic to have such ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Ministry for Regulation’s first Strategic Intentions document sets ambitious direction

    Regulation Minister David Seymour welcomes the Ministry for Regulation’s first Strategic Intentions document, which sets out how the Ministry will carry out its work and deliver on its purpose. “I have set up the Ministry for Regulation with three tasks. One, to cut existing red tape with sector reviews. Two, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Māori Education Advisory Group established

    The Education Minister has established a Māori Education Ministerial Advisory Group made up of experienced practitioners to help improve outcomes for Māori learners. “This group will provide independent advice on all matters related to Māori education in both English medium and Māori medium settings. It will focus on the most impactful ways we can lift ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government welcomes findings of NZ Superannuation Fund review

    The Government has welcomed the findings of the recent statutory review into the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation and the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, Minister of Finance Nicola Willis says. The 5-yearly review, conducted on behalf of Treasury and tabled in Parliament today, found the Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • First of five new Hercules aircraft takes flight

    Defence Minister Judith Collins today welcomed the first of five new C-130J-30 Hercules to arrive in New Zealand at a ceremony at the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s Base Auckland, Whenuapai. “This is an historic day for our New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) and our nation. The new Hercules fleet ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Have your say on suicide prevention

    Today, September 10 is World Suicide Prevention Day, a time to reflect on New Zealand’s confronting suicide statistics, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “Every death by suicide is a tragedy – a tragedy that affects far too many of our families and communities in New Zealand. We must do ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Action to grow the rural health workforce

    Scholarships awarded to 27 health care students is another positive step forward to boost the future rural health workforce, Associate Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “All New Zealanders deserve timely access to quality health care and this Government is committed to improving health outcomes, particularly for the one in five ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Pharmac delivering more for Kiwis following major funding boost

    Associate Health Minister with responsibility for Pharmac David Seymour has welcomed the increased availability of medicines for Kiwis resulting from the Government’s increased investment in Pharmac. “Pharmac operates independently, but it must work within the budget constraints set by the Government,” says Mr Seymour. “When our Government assumed office, New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Sport Minister congratulates NZ’s Paralympians

    Sport & Recreation Minister Chris Bishop has congratulated New Zealand's Paralympic Team at the conclusion of the Paralympic Games in Paris.  “The NZ Paralympic Team's success in Paris included fantastic performances, personal best times, New Zealand records and Oceania records all being smashed - and of course, many Kiwis on ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government progresses response to Abuse in Care recommendations

    A Crown Response Office is being established within the Public Service Commission to drive the Government’s response to the Royal Commission into Abuse in Care. “The creation of an Office within a central Government agency was a key recommendation by the Royal Commission’s final report.  “It will have the mandate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Passport wait times back on-track

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says passport processing has returned to normal, and the Department of Internal Affairs [Department] is now advising customers to allow up to two weeks to receive their passport. “I am pleased that passport processing is back at target service levels and the Department ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New appointments to the FMA board

    Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister has today announced three new appointments and one reappointment to the Financial Markets Authority (FMA) board. Tracey Berry, Nicholas Hegan and Mariette van Ryn have been appointed for a five-year term ending in August 2029, while Chris Swasbrook, who has served as a board member ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • District Court judges appointed

    Attorney-General Hon Judith Collins today announced the appointment of two new District Court judges. The appointees, who will take up their roles at the Manukau Court and the Auckland Court in the Accident Compensation Appeal Jurisdiction, are: Jacqui Clark Judge Clark was admitted to the bar in 1988 after graduating ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government makes it faster and easier to invest in New Zealand

    Associate Minister of Finance David Seymour is encouraged by significant improvements to overseas investment decision timeframes, and the enhanced interest from investors as the Government continues to reform overseas investment. “There were about as many foreign direct investment applications in July and August as there was across the six months ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand to join Operation Olympic Defender

    New Zealand has accepted an invitation to join US-led multi-national space initiative Operation Olympic Defender, Defence Minister Judith Collins announced today. Operation Olympic Defender is designed to coordinate the space capabilities of member nations, enhance the resilience of space-based systems, deter hostile actions in space and reduce the spread of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government commits to ‘stamping out’ foot and mouth disease

    Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard says that a new economic impact analysis report reinforces this government’s commitment to ‘stamp out’ any New Zealand foot and mouth disease incursion. “The new analysis, produced by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research, shows an incursion of the disease in New Zealand would have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Improving access to finance for Kiwis

    5 September 2024  The Government is progressing further reforms to financial services to make it easier for Kiwis to access finance when they need it, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says.  “Financial services are foundational for economic success and are woven throughout our lives. Without access to finance our ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister pays tribute to Kiingi Tuheitia

    As Kiingi Tuheitia Pootatau Te Wherowhero VII is laid to rest today, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has paid tribute to a leader whose commitment to Kotahitanga will have a lasting impact on our country. “Kiingi Tuheitia was a humble leader who served his people with wisdom, mana and an unwavering ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Resource Management reform to make forestry rules clearer

    Forestry Minister Todd McClay today announced proposals to reform the resource management system that will provide greater certainty for the forestry sector and help them meet environmental obligations.   “The Government has committed to restoring confidence and certainty across the sector by removing unworkable regulatory burden created by the previous ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • More choice and competition in building products

    A major shake-up of building products which will make it easier and more affordable to build is on the way, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Today we have introduced legislation that will improve access to a wider variety of quality building products from overseas, giving Kiwis more choice and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Joint Statement between the Republic of Korea and New Zealand 4 September 2024, Seoul

    On the occasion of the official visit by the Right Honourable Prime Minister Christopher Luxon of New Zealand to the Republic of Korea from 4 to 5 September 2024, a summit meeting was held between His Excellency President Yoon Suk Yeol of the Republic of Korea (hereinafter referred to as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Comprehensive Strategic Partnership the goal for New Zealand and Korea

    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Republic of Korea, Yoon Suk Yeol. “Korea and New Zealand are likeminded democracies and natural partners in the Indo Pacific. As such, we have decided to advance discussions on elevating the bilateral relationship to a Comprehensive ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • International tourism continuing to bounce back

    Results released today from the International Visitor Survey (IVS) confirm international tourism is continuing to bounce back, Tourism and Hospitality Minister Matt Doocey says. The IVS results show that in the June quarter, international tourism contributed $2.6 billion to New Zealand’s economy, an increase of 17 per cent on last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government confirms RMA reforms to drive primary sector efficiency

    The Government is moving to review and update national level policy directives that impact the primary sector, as part of its work to get Wellington out of farming. “The primary sector has been weighed down by unworkable and costly regulation for too long,” Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says.  “That is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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