English still whining

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1. Draco T Bastard 1

   6 December 2017 at 1:24 pm

   Bill English has presented his election review, saying “nearly 1/2 of NZers didn’t vote for what they got, and don’t like how they got there”.

   Yes, I’m quiet aware that many National and ACT voters don’t like democracy.

   Peter Dunne has issued a challenge to the new Parliament: “Seize the moment, change the constitution, and make the next head of state the president of the republic of NZ”

   Didn’t realise that Dunne wanted us to become a republic.

   Tend to agree with him as well. Still, it’s something that needs to be put to referendum and not just implemented from the top.

   Te Ururoa Flavell says he is still shattered from the election. And shattered with the results. “Despite all the gains we got for our people, we got owned”

   That probably has something to do with you working with National to make the majority of people worse off.
   • tc 1.1

     6 December 2017 at 1:48 pm

     I thought Flavell was just stating facts;

     “Despite all the gains….” for elite iwi , “……we got owned” by national since 2008.
   • tracey 1.2

     6 December 2017 at 2:11 pm

     I wonder who he has in mind for the first President 😉

     He seems to have lots of ideas now he is no longer in govt with power to do them.
     • Matthew Whitehead 1.2.1

       6 December 2017 at 4:51 pm

       He built his whole career on never getting out on front of the issues. Of course he suddenly shows some residual courage as soon as he’s out of office.
   • Matthew Whitehead 1.3

     6 December 2017 at 4:50 pm

     The Republic thing needs more than a referendum. It needs active participation and agreement from New Zealanders, and thorough debate on how. Nobody wants to turn it into the John Key Flag Options.
     • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1

       6 December 2017 at 5:59 pm

       /agreed
   • Ed 1.4

     6 December 2017 at 5:59 pm

     When your party represents the interests of the 1%, of course you don’t like democracy.
2. Tricledrown 2

   6 December 2017 at 1:29 pm

   Crying in Beersies sindrone.
   Droning Drongo from Dipton.
   Who is going to replace this 2 time looser.
   He didn’t get MMP the first time he was leader and still doesn’t get it.
   Voting blocks .
   His comment after the election saying Winston is a Maverick was a dumb idea he could have been PM.
   He could have hung the leakers out to dry and been PM.
   But that would have been a hollow vicTory.
   Can we believe Joyce.
   Bennett Eagleston etc.
   Eagleston was the fall guy.
   Not enough to appease Winston.
   I suspect Paula Bennett was the leaker given her form.
   Younger with leadership asperations waiting for another election cycle with Bill English in charge was to much.
3. Tricledrown 3

   6 December 2017 at 1:32 pm

   Double Dipping
   Double dipped out.
4. tracey 4

   6 December 2017 at 2:12 pm

   Was English in the Bolger government which ruled with 35% of the vote?
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.1

     6 December 2017 at 4:39 pm

     Good Point!!

     Yes he was, 35% of the vote and yet no qualms leading a coalition government:

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_general_election,_1993

     He could argue they had the “largest vote” (by 0.65%)…..But I think he is just making up “Principles” as he goes, to suit himself.
5. Valerie 5

   6 December 2017 at 3:31 pm

   Lost whatever small respect I had for English when he ducked and weaved, lied re Todd Barclay case. No leadership skills what so ever. A wooden ventriloquist doll with no personal confidence unless told how to react. How this guy retains any amount of respect is beyond me – just a privileged person who somehow hung on due to blue seat in Southland – willing to support the great big lie. He’ll be gone soon absolutely no doubt. A journey man way beyond his capabilities with a nasty streak. Quite pathetic really.
   • Draco T Bastard 5.1

     6 December 2017 at 6:03 pm

     How this guy retains any amount of respect

     He’s rich and, for many, that’s all that matters.
     • Ed 5.1.1

       6 December 2017 at 6:07 pm

       Many NZers are very selfish.
   • Loop 5.2

     7 December 2017 at 1:49 pm

     blinglish is little different to key or any other national politician as far as honesty or integrity goes. I can’t remember a Labour government showing such churlish, poor form in or out of government. The opposition just sickens me. Long may they be in opposition!
6. D'Esterre 6

   6 December 2017 at 5:56 pm

   “Bill English is still whining…”

   Who’s that again?
   • rob 6.1

     7 December 2017 at 12:00 am

     Bill who??
7. Sparky 7

   6 December 2017 at 6:04 pm

   Neither of the big parties seem to understand how MMP works. The Nats seem to have a problem with the basic math and Lay-bore seems to think having an alliance means having a mandate to push deals like the CP-TPP even though its partners voters said a clear “no” to it and they need that support to stay in office.
   • Draco T Bastard 7.1

     6 December 2017 at 10:55 pm

     The Nats seem to have a problem with the basic math

     The Nats know how it works and they don’t have a problem with basic maths. What they have problem with is that they didn’t win, This seems to be because they believe themselves to be winners and thus deserve to win and so everyone should simply vote for them because everyone is supposed to support winners, i.e, them.
8. Tanz 8

   6 December 2017 at 8:07 pm

   English is one hundred per cent right, and actually, this is not how MMP was sold to us.
   MMP was supposed to give small parties a voice, but not to actually let one of them choose the government. So NZ First voters, all seven percent, get their views represented, whilst National voters, who outpolled both Labour and the Greens, do not. Stuff MMP it is a farce.
   Labour would be just as unhappy if the shoe had been on the other foot and they as the highest polling party had been sidelined. But then when does Labour ever play fair.? At the end of the day though, numbers don’t lie.

   National won the popular vote over Labour and nothing can change that. Next election Winston Peters will not be there to save Labour. Roll on 2020, this election was just a waste of time con, and a slap in the face to a transparent, fair democracy. Not to mention a slap in the face to the majority voters, who voted National. That was not a vote for change, it was a vote for the status quo, or Labour would have outpolled the Nats. They did not. Half of NZ First voters wanted National also, hence NZ First is already well below seven percent and very near below the threshold, already. Yay. Sir Richard Prebble is right, MMP is a flawed farce. This will be the election that finally, finally gets MMP reformed, or even better, replaced, (eventually).
   • Ed 8.1

     6 December 2017 at 8:08 pm

     You are a sore loser, Tanz.
     • In Vino 8.1.1

       6 December 2017 at 8:16 pm

       Tanz – face it. National’s so-called popular vote was not that at all. It was well below 50%. Nobody else wanted to go with National, so that is where they stayed. Fair and square.
       The current coalition Govt is the majority, not the lonely under-50% National whingers. Eat it, digest it, then shut up.
       Want another immediate election, Tanz? Seen the latest polls? Do you think Billshit English would have half a chance of winning with Jacinda giving him daily lessons in how to speak, reason, and convince? NZ first could well become irrelevant, but not in a way you would like.
       • Tanz 8.1.1.1

         6 December 2017 at 8:49 pm

         National’s internal polling is very robust, they are on track to outpoll Labour once again next time. NZ First will be gone, and possibly the Greens. So it will be no mates Labour.

         I knew Ardern wasn’t up to the job, there is no substance at all, she is all about slogans and soundbites. Clark runs circles around her as a PM, and so does Emglish. Anyway, the people endorsed English over Ardern, and they will again.
         This willl be a one term government, already its looking shaky.
         • Ed 8.1.1.1.1

           6 December 2017 at 8:51 pm

           This is really quite sad, tanz.
           You lost.
           Being a bad loser is not a good look.
           Have a little more self-respect.
         • McFlock 8.1.1.1.2

           6 December 2017 at 10:23 pm

           They might “outpoll” Labour.

           But that is irrelevant.

           The fact is, most voters rejected National and anyone likely to go into coalition with them.
         • tracey 8.1.1.1.3

           7 December 2017 at 8:33 am

           Yeah you never used terms like Helengrad or Alan Clark, you admired and respected Clark when she was PM.

           Your comment about slogans and hollow betrays you. For 9 years you extolled it from Key’s mouth.
     • Tanz 8.1.2

       6 December 2017 at 8:37 pm

       So Ed, if it had happed the other way around, and even though say Labour outpolled National but were sidelined by a small seven per cent party, you’d be ok with that and just put it down to MMP? Somehow, I doubt it, and the biased MSM would be screaming from the rooftops also. we’d be hearing how its against our convention and against natural justice, from the editorials to the front pages etc, and especially from the very left biased tv and radio commentators. But since they have an outcome that suits them and their agendas, they are silent as stone. Democracy is not owned by the voters in NZ, it is owned by the media and Winston Peters. Not a sore loser, i just like fairness. If Labour had won the election, I wouldn’t care.The whole thing is a farce, read letters to the editor etc, there is much dissent out there re a coalition of losers govt.
       • Ed 8.1.2.1

         6 December 2017 at 8:38 pm

         Thought this brief video might help you understand our system of government.

         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JamSJ_yguqc
       • Pete 8.1.2.2

         6 December 2017 at 8:45 pm

         Tanz, In your opinion that wasn’t how MMP was sold to us. Lots of things in politics end up to not be how they were sold to us. Like elections and the part GST has played in them.
       • Tricledrown 8.1.2.3

         6 December 2017 at 9:37 pm

         So Tanz National relied on Winston in 1996 then double crossed Winston, again in 2007 National targeted Winston before the election.
         Key said he wouldn’t go into Coalition with Peters 2 elections in a row then changed his mind and still didn’t go with Winston.
         So National ran out of partners not thinking the Maori Party would collapse and Labour shut Dunne out.
         Stephen Joyce​ is who you should be nlaming Tanz he lost the Northland byelelection and didn’t have a plan B infact he destroyed plan B maybe thinking Labour didn’t stand a chance.
         Lame blame gaming Tanz
         Stop crying in your Beersies Tanz.
         Maybe it’s Nationals plan to loose this election and continue to attack Winston.
       • McFlock 8.1.2.4

         6 December 2017 at 10:32 pm

         As I recall, I was pretty pissed at Winston in 1996. But I was pissed at Winston. I never tried to pretend the process was illegitimate or abused, or that anyone had a right to be preferred coalition partner.

         I was pissed because he gave the impression he’d do one thing, and did the opposite.

         That’s different to complaining that you won your leg of the relay, so you should get the trophy even though two or three of your mates didn’t finish their legs of the race, but the team with three or four people cooperating together all completed their bit of the job.

         Or maybe it’s a bit like the US guy at the Vietnam peace talks who stated that the yanks won every battle they fought against the Vietnamese. The response he got was “That may be true, but it is also irrelevant”.

         So slow clap to national for being the highest polling party. Full credit to the coalition for realising that democracy now requires people to cooperate.
         • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.4.1

           6 December 2017 at 11:11 pm

           As I recall, I was pretty pissed at Winston in 1996. But I was pissed at Winston.

           Most of the country were pissed at Winston in 1996 after he went with National.

           But nobody complained about the electoral system.
       • tracey 8.1.2.5

         7 December 2017 at 8:36 am

         Go back and do some research. There have been times when what you suggest happened. Do your research and tell us how outraged the media were on Labour’s behalf. But you wont. Evidence will undermine your supposition.

         NZF did not determine this Government. Labour and National did.

         Now, stop treating it like a game and give Democracy the respect you bemoaned is lacking.
       • Loop 8.1.2.6

         7 December 2017 at 2:03 pm

         I feel betrayed by the voters of new zealand for the previous 3 terms under national. As you correctly state Tanz, the media are part of deciding the government and in this superficial world we live in “pretty” wins. john key was “pretty”, charismatic unethical, immoral, law breaker(as are a lot of the politicians in national) and deceitful, but all that counted to the voters was that oohh, ahhh loverly smile. AAAnd, I think you’ll find MSM still has a bias towards blinglish. every descision labour looks at making, MSM look to blinglish for a comment or opinion, like it really counts. not.
   • greg 8.2

     6 December 2017 at 9:25 pm

     well tuff tanz
   • Incognito 8.3

     6 December 2017 at 9:57 pm

     What you’re trying to say, I think, is that MMP was supposed to give small parties a voice, but not to actually let one of them choose the government because that would be the ‘prerogative’ of the highest polling party (AKA winner of popular vote or the party with a plurality). In other words, you want FPP.

     Contrary to popular belief elections and MMP are not about the parties but about the voters, the people who elect their representatives in a democracy. Under MMP the common situation is that a minority of votes will be represented by the Opposition. It doesn’t matter whether the Opposition is comprised of one big, a few medium, many minor parties or some mixture thereof.

     So many people are so party-centric that it almost becomes a fixation; too much tribalism and partisan politics are the result.
   • Draco T Bastard 8.4

     6 December 2017 at 11:06 pm

     English is one hundred per cent right,

     No, he’s lying.

     and actually, this is not how MMP was sold to us.

     Actually, this is exactly how it was sold to us and what I voted for.

     MMP was supposed to give small parties a voice, but not to actually let one of them choose the government.

     No, that would be you Making Shit Up because reality isn’t conforming to your delusional biases.

     So NZ First voters, all seven percent, get their views represented, whilst National voters, who outpolled both Labour and the Greens, do not.

     Their views are represented in parliament. And I certainly don’t recall you complaining that Labour’s, NZ1st’s and the Greens’ views weren’t represented in the last government.

     Stuff MMP it is a farce.

     Why? Because it didn’t deliver what you wanted?

     That’s democracy – even our highly restricted system of it.

     National won the popular vote

     No they didn’t. That would be you Making Shit Up again. Labour, Greens and NZ1st have the popular vote.

     this election was just a waste of time con, and a slap in the face to a transparent, fair democracy.

     No, this election was a reasonably fair election – despite National rorting the system.

     Not to mention a slap in the face to the majority voters, who voted National.

     THE MAJORITY OF VOTERS DID NOT VOTE NATIONAL.

     And no matter how many times you tell yourself that lie it won’t change the fact that National LOST.

     Half of NZ First voters wanted National also

     And that would be another lie.

     All indications that I’ve seen over the last few years is that a majority of NZ1st voters preferred Labour.

     Sir Richard Prebble is right, MMP is a flawed farce.

     Richard Prebble, like John Key, is lying scum. Just like you in fact.
     • tracey 8.4.1

       7 December 2017 at 8:37 am

       OK should have read this first… wel said.
   • tracey 8.5

     7 December 2017 at 8:29 am

     When Bolger won with 35% no one on the Right squealed. You actually have outlined beautifully your misu derstanding MMP. To make your argument you needed false assumptions such as

     Winston decided

     Er no, Labour and National decided.
   • tracey 8.6

     7 December 2017 at 8:31 am

     One party getting more votes than another is not the point and even under FPP was not the point.

     Who gets 61 seats is the point.

     It really is that simple.

     Labour has a longer history than National of getting higher vote count but not getting Treasury benches so your argument

     What if labour had 44.6% is addressed by history
   • Lucy 8.7

     7 December 2017 at 9:59 am

     Hilary won the popular vote in the US and she didn’t win, Labour in the UK won the popular vote and they didn’t win. Under democracy in its many forms most have a way of ensuring that the most popular do not win the most seats. Its only a problem when born to rule parties lose the stack!
     • solkta 8.7.1

       7 December 2017 at 10:09 am

       I think the US electoral system has a problem. They do not have one person one vote but rather votes allocated to states regardless of population. The individual does not actually have a constitutional right to vote for the president.
   • Loop 8.8

     7 December 2017 at 1:53 pm

     That whining sounds very bill english. are you an alter ego?
   • Paul Campbell 8.9

     7 December 2017 at 2:13 pm

     Tanz: It’s like rugby, MMP elections in NZ are a game of two halves, if you win the first half but come to the end of the second half with fewer points than the other team, you have lost the game.

     Complaining that because you won the first half the whole game should have been awarded to you is just plain sour grapes, but saying that the rules of the game require it is telling porkies too
   • NZJester 8.10

     7 December 2017 at 4:34 pm

     The Majority of voters get their views represented. The majority of New Zealand voters voted against National. The small parties National used to hang on to power in the last couple of elections where just National puppets with no real say, just being used as a way for National to introduce its less popular policies while claiming the policies belonged to someone else. The Maori party who helped prop them up paid the price for helping betray most of the people who voted for them.
   • Thinkerrr 8.11

     7 December 2017 at 9:36 pm

     Better buy a pair of brown trousers before 2020, Tanz…
   • AB 8.12

     7 December 2017 at 11:19 pm

     MMP is behaving entirely as expected and desired – it’s delivering GOVERNMENTS that have the support of over 50% of those who voted. (Disregarding the wasted vote for parties that didn’t get into parliament).
     Its purpose was to end the anti-democratic FPP absurdity of parties becoming governments with huge majorities and near-dictatorial powers on much less than 50% of the vote.
     Undoubtedly we will see another attack on MMP from the right.
9. NewsFlash 9

   6 December 2017 at 8:51 pm

   Tanz

   ” Not to mention a slap in the face to the majority voters, who voted National.”

   You obviously are suffering from the same National party funded education that dildo Joyce had cos neither of you don’t appear to be particularly good at MATHS, for your benefit, 44.6% is not a majority and the 55.4% who did vote for change just happens to be a majority.

   Democracy, dictionary definition, for your benefit.

   “a government by the people; especially: rule of the majority”

   The only statement you have provided that is correct is this one

   ” English is one hundred per cent right”

   Yeah, right winged, 100%
10. greg 10

    6 December 2017 at 9:23 pm

    they still cant cope with the fall from power the born to rule nacts just cant understand why 55.4 percent of us booted them out of office. they be-leaved the cooLade key feed them on the rock star economy well to bad
11. Ed 11

    6 December 2017 at 10:29 pm

    This thread could be titled Tanz and Bill English still whining…….
    • NewsFlash 11.1

      6 December 2017 at 10:44 pm

      +1 Should be
12. Bearded Git 12

    7 December 2017 at 4:25 am

    Its 44.4% not 44.6%
    • tracey 12.1

      7 December 2017 at 8:37 am

      Oops. Thanks
13. cleangreen 13

    7 December 2017 at 6:19 am

    National have been already ‘brainwashed’ and are now “talking heads” only parroting what the they have been programed to say.

    We are fighting a new kind of political system more akin to andoids taking over the world now sadly.

    We must learn to treat the ‘new Opposition Party’ only as a bunch of foriegn objects sent to disrupt civil order, and therefore must be dealt with orderly, as the old ‘National’ Government did to us freedom fighters for democracy.
14. Cinny 14

    7 December 2017 at 8:20 am

    The pamphlet that nick smith sent out to nelson and tasman voters, claiming nats won the election, turns out it has a little survey thing to fill in and post off.

    If you’ve still got your pamphlet, then write on the survey the truth.. national lost the election.. then free post it away.
    • tracey 14.1

      7 December 2017 at 8:38 am

      Heehee
15. Mickey Boyle 15

    7 December 2017 at 4:48 pm

    While I dont agree with you on most of your comment Tanz, I do agree with you in your premise that this will be a one term government. Hopefully Jacinda and James can implement some comprehensive policy in this term, I dont have alot of faith in this however, but it is still early days.
16. Thinkerrr 16

    7 December 2017 at 10:00 pm

    Don’t knock Blinglish’s thinking too much. He’s helping the new government.

    If he had come out of the election with the opinion that he no longer had the numbers or friendly smaller parties to form a government, he would have goe through his shadow spokespeople’s roles with a fine tooth comb, weeding out the spent forces and bringing in some fresh, young talent, hungry for a chance at government in 2020. Life would be a bit harder for the new government.

    Instead, he feels robbed. He feels he actually won the election, but it was stolen from him.

    And for that reason, he believes his tired pack of old faces still have the charisma to pull poular opinion, so he hasn’t made many (any?) changes to the old lineup.

    At some point, the strategists will work that out, roll the Dipton Dynamo and the new person will sack the old guard and replace it with fresh horses. Until then, the government should make the best of the opportunity, rest a bit, build a cohesive team of the three parties in government, because this time won’t last forever.

    Also, use the time to get the news out that neoliberalism failed, not a) hasn’t been given enough time, or b) not been fully implemented. Failed. And, yes, there always was an alternative, we just weren’t allowed to speak about it or give it a name.

    Currently, National has two vulnerabilities. One is temporary, being the trotting out of the old guard that they believe is still popular. The other is permanent and that is that they have adoptec neoliberalism to the core of their being, and neolibralism has failed. Don’t waste the chance to deal to them on these factors.

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