Finance debate – Grant Robertson vs big flaming gasbag

Written By: - Date published: 8:32 am, September 7th, 2017 - 54 comments
Categories: accountability, economy, grant robertson, labour, national, Steven Joyce, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags: , , , , ,

The RNZ debate between Labour and Nat finance spokespersons has just concluded – Grant Robertson vs a big flaming gasbag. Robertson very strong, gasbag unable to name One Single Person who agrees with his $11.7bn big lie.

Good work by Guyon Espiner.

Strong points by Grant Robertson.

Gasbag out to just spread as much confusion as possible.


Ongoing reading on gasbag’s $11.7bn big lie:

John Armstrong opinion: Joyce looks a proper fool, but it won’t stop National throwing everything it can at Ardern

Fiscal hole? Hit the havoc button

Three terms and a Hail Mary

There’s no fiscal black hole, just an incredibly tight squeeze. Can we move on now?

54 comments on “Finance debate – Grant Robertson vs big flaming gasbag”

  1. Ad 1

    Excellent for the massive RNZ morning audience. Joyce should have been able to best Robertson since he is far closer to the budgets. He didn’t.

    If National can’t blunt Labour on the economy, their remaining attack platform is tax. Which narrows but sharpens their remaining weapons.

    • ScottGN 1.1

      Agreed Ad. I’d feel a whole lot better if Labour could really tidy up the questions around tax.
      Ardern yesterday had to call RadioNZ to clarify whether or not a land tax would apply to the land the family home sits on. It was messy and luckily the fiscal hole shenanigans was still in full swing so it went unnoticed a bit.
      But now Labour need to minimise potential attack lines National (and their proxies) can use against them as we head into the final stretch.
      Unless, of course, they think something’s going to come along which will blow the whole campaign apart…

      • Ad 1.1.1

        When Deputy Leader Davis proposed shunting the CGT out to the next term, he was on the money. Even if they changed their minds (ie lied) it would have blunted the tax debate sufficiently.

        Great to make a “leadership call”, but – IF they won – it’s going to be a government on a thin coalition that burns through a whole pile of political capital in one term.

    • bwaghorn 1.2

      labour should clear it up , while i trust them to do a sensible review most will fall for the fear of the unknown , every one expects labour to up the top tax rate they might as well own it

    • John up North 1.3

      Who writes the headlines/link taglines for RNZ?

      VIDEO: Fiscal hole truth? Joyce and Robertson clash

      This is the current home page link but the linked page has a different title.

      More Oxygen for the liar Dildo Joyce.

      Here’s a few more truthful alternatives.

      VIDEO: Joyce the Liar, gets handed his own substantial ass.

      VIDEO: Joyce can’t get anyone to back his lies.

      VIDEO: Finacial Debate, Robertson calls Joyce a liar.

      please add yours…..

    • Zeroque 1.4

      That final exchange from Robertson to Joyce was passionate and credible. Clearly Joyce has been sprung on this matter.

    • NZJester 1.5

      The one thing about paying higher taxes under Labour is that the higher wages and higher profits businesses make leaves more money in most peoples pockets at the end of the day. Labour gets the money flowing through our economy and recirculating, while National stagnates it a lot of the time by stopping it flowing by sitting in bank accounts and trusts or dries it up by helping a lot of it flow out of New Zealand and out of our economy.
      There is also a lot less money that people need to pay out on other things like schooling and healthcare that can really add up to a big saving at the end of the day. Higher taxes to fund our essential services at the end of the day saves the average wage earner a lot of money per year. It is only those on the higher salaries that tend to see a decrease in their money received at the end of the year. A lot of small to medium business owners on the otherhand see more money in there accounts from higher after tax profits.

  2. Bearded Git 2

    Bronwyn Hayward is right in her article (link above) here:

    “But if this general election was a test match for democracy, the National Party and Mr Joyce deserve a red card.”

    Joyce’s inability to name a single person (including Bill English) that supported his $11.7 billion lie on Morning Report this morning is the “gotcha” moment of the campaign.

  3. red-blooded 3

    Yes, a great interview (and proof, if it was needed, that Guyon Espiner is actually a bloody good interviewer and doesn’t push a political barrow). Joyce tried hard to push fear and confusion, but Robertson was nimble and articulate and Joyce had nowhere to go with his pathetic “fiscal hole” allegation.

    • ianmac 3.1

      Notice that when Joyce is confronted he just talks over the top of everyone.
      Must remember next time my wife confronts me about not hanging the washing out correctly. Try a Joycie.

      • garibaldi 3.1.1

        Oh ianmac we all know that won’t work!

      • tracey 3.1.2

        Except the washing really does need hanging out, correctly isnt hard and why do you not know by now?

      • WILD KATIPO 3.1.3

        Joyce did the same thing to Robertson just prior to the 2014 election in an interview. Its an obvious tactic of his.

        The difference was between this time and last time , Joyce not only talked over with a loud voice , he went on and on and on in that insane high pitched giggle throughout the interview. So much so he seemed mentally unhinged.

        If that is the caliber and mentality of the man I would say we are dealing with something akin to a Goring type personality , – bombastic , egotistical and a consummate liar.

        And for all the deflectors and the nitpickers,… I don’t give a crap about Godwin.

        New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
        http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

  4. Keith 4

    Nationals strategy of throwing as much horse shit at Labour with the knowledge some will stick has to be countered.

    I would love to see Jacinda give an impromptu press release as soon as possible not only highlighting Joyce’s lies but pledging to end Dirty Politics once and for all with her government at least. Turn it back on National.

    Highlight the 11 billion dollar lie.
    Highlight the smear campaign against Winston the previous week.
    Highlight the Dirty Politics smear machine that operates or operated directly out of the PM’s office since 2008.
    Highlight that this is all the National Party have left and why.

    Pledge that misinformation, dishonesty and immoral behaviour that Stephen Joyce so ably demonstrates will end with her.

    Pledge that misuse of privileged information given to ministers will end, vis a vis Paula Bennett etc.

    Draw a very bold line between what her government will bring and what the current government is.

    Whatever happens do not take Nationals misinformation strategy with a stiff upper lip anymore! Do something now.

    • left_forward 4.1

      Yes – I agree this would be a good move for Jacinda.

    • Reality 4.2

      Keith – and Jacinda would do it well, as she has on other occasions like dealing with Mark Richardson, Julie Bishop and yesterday responding to the Trump nonsense. From day one she has impressed me with her forthrightness when it’s been necessary.

    • Pat 4.3

      not a bad idea if handled well, though it could be painted as ‘negative’..

      “.Pledge that misinformation, dishonesty and immoral behaviour that Stephen Joyce so ably demonstrates will end with her”…this however is a great positive statement!

      • tc 4.3.1

        not if its framed as a direct response to the shit national are serving up to the public…..pause and then straight back to a positive message all in the one press release.

        • Pat 4.3.1.1

          yep…could see that working…certainly unlikely to have any detrimental effect

          • DSpare 4.3.1.1.1

            Or just a simple:
            “Unlike the National party, Labour do not have to lie to people to get their votes. Our fully costed and independently reviewed policies stand on their own merits.”
            Not being specific to Joyce means that the listener would be likely to think through which of the many lies told by National they find most unforgivable. However, Robertson’s; “You have damaged democracy by what you’ve done”, seems to be the point of Joyce’s action.

            The more uncommitted voters see a politician obviously lying, the more they will see all politicians as liars, the less likely they will be to vote. If only the committed voters turnout to vote, then National have a better chance; since their supporters care less about truth than money.

            • Pat 4.3.1.1.1.1

              being specific to the imaginary hole is front of mind and blindingly obvious to any wavering voter(this is going to have no impact on those already determined) and the scope is there for all the other lies/deceits to both be remembered and reminded

            • tracey 4.3.1.1.1.2

              They really cannot say they dont lie… if they did it would discredit whole statement.

    • Tricledrown 4.4

      Dildo Joyce has miscalculated and the Dirty political stunt has left him covered in his own Hole covered in Crap.

  5. One Two 5

    Did Robertson expose the ‘money/debt’ scam?

    No…of course he did not

    Gasbag v Gasbag would be more accurate for the article title

    Liar v Liar, most accurate!

    • tc 5.1

      What did you expect from a beltway trougher…..whatever removes national is all that matters currently.

  6. Keith 6

    Actually it is the best hit out I have seen from Grant Robertson and accurately summed up by him at the very end where he labelled Joyce a liar.

    Well chosen words and a long time coming.

    • ianmac 6.1

      Grant hasn’t been given much of a window before to hit out has he?

      • The decrypter 6.1.1

        No not really, but has now given Jacinda a bit more ammunition to fire back at English. Golly good show old chap.–Was’nt there something re joyce and taxi fare in aussie”re cab driver…. support for finance hole” from cab driver””

  7. indiana 7

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/96562393/even-without-a-black-hole-labour-may-have-fiscal-problem

    “Will any of this really matter after the election?

    As one economist noted on Wednesday, documents such as Labour’s fiscal plan are “not much more than opening offers going into potential negotiations around the formation…of a new government”.

    Even the most favourable polls would have Labour needing NZ First to form a Government, and Winston Peters’ party will have spending plans of its own.

    It is also a political reality that were Labour to take over the Beehive, it will be able to claim circumstances have changed. It will not be tied to the document in any way.

    Frankly, circumstances will change. The entire fiscal debate is based around Treasury’s forecasts which never end up exactly matching reality. No one would expect them to.”

    • tracey 7.1

      National has the same problem and in fact had the problem Joyce accuses them on in 2014-15.

      I am surprise you are not affronted by the new day =new lolly scramble from National. Or dont you mind cos you know they dont mean it?

      • indiana 7.1.1

        In 2014-15, when that same problem existed, there was no threat that National would have to renegotiate with NZ First to form a government. Labour has that problem right now. Quite frankly its very difficult to believe any fiscal plan put up by Labour when it does not include any of the fiscal plans of their coalition partners.

        • McFlock 7.1.1.1

          And National has exactly the same fiscal problem, then.

          Especially this year.

        • solkta 7.1.1.2

          And how would they include that when they don’t know who their coalition partners will be and what will be negotiated? Stupid thing to say.

        • left_forward 7.1.1.3

          I don’t think Labour has any problems indiana – with the current momentum, it will be Labour and Greens on their own!

  8. solkta 8

    Love the current headline on Stuff:

    “Joyce alone in his ‘fiscal hole'”

  9. adam 9

    Dildo Baggins could really do with another dildo in the face right about now. He needs one to get back some credibility at this point.

    I’ve seen better crocks on a guitar string. This lying as policy, speaks volumes to the nature of this national government.

    I’m no fan of the labour party, that said, a national government who can’t offer anything but this web of deceit, word games, and point scoring – has to go.

  10. CLEANGREEN 10

    TV one Coleman Brunton poll due at 6 pm on TV One so if Labour stalls it is because of the lies that Steven Joyce told about the $11 billion hole.

    Labour should take a court case about lack of ‘real debate policy’ rights given to all opposition parties leading up to this election because if their policies were made clear months before this election most of the lies and misrepresentations/confusions left for the voter will have been worked through leaving a seamless simple choice election for all voters by now.

    This case would be argued on ‘the public good interest’ case.

  11. L0L !

    Blah blah..

    ”Just ONE name ”…

    Blah blah …

    ”Just ONE name ”…

    🙂

    • Andrea 11.1

      Just before nine there was a snippet of feedback from someone offering to be that One Name. He didn’t actually believe Joyce, yet he volunteered…

      There’s still kindness in the country – even for the likes of Joyce. 😀

  12. rhinocrates 12

    Oh the mendacity!

  13. Imodium 13

    Joyces original comment was there was either a $11.7 b fiscal hole or there was zero budget increases for the following years. It seems the MSM and commentators here have only focused on the fiscal hole part of his comment.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1

      What McFlock said (13).

      Let’s examine how you arrived at that false conclusion.

      Did someone tell you that? If so how do you feel about being lied to?

      Or did you just make it up?

    • ianmac 13.2

      You are wrong Imo. Deliberately?

  14. McFlock 14

    Really? Not according to his own press release:

    The Labour Party has an $11.7 billion hole in its fiscal plan that blows its debt out and breaks its own budget responsibility pledge, National’s Finance spokesperson Steven Joyce says.

  15. ianmac 15

    At todays Meet the Candidates Meeting organised by Greypower, I asked our local National Electorate MP if he “agreed with the Joyce claim.” When he tried to explain that Joyce said that either there was hole, or nil budget instead of answering the question I challenged him to answer the question. It got a bit heated with a couple of others in the audience trying to block my question. The wise Chairman borrowed a Speaker idea and suggested that we would judge the answer on its quality. The MP did a brave job of deflecting the question.
    The comments from Greens and Labour were very much to the point against the Joyce lie. Glad I had a go and I thought that the MP looked a bit pale especially when the audience applauded the Labour response.

  16. Philj 16

    The Hon Joyce is clearly a desperate bully, full of bluster and blarney. You assert your government will build 100,000 homes in 3 years! How many houses were sold off during your time? You will do the country greater service in opposition for 9 years.

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