Flag distraction result today

Written By: - Date published: 8:30 am, March 24th, 2016 - 135 comments
Categories: identity, john key - Tags:

The preliminary results of the flag referendum / distraction are out around 8pm this evening (possibly here). “Turnout” has been reasonably high. Bragging rights I guess to whomever best predicts the outcome.

I thought some salient points were made by Geoff Neal in this Stuff piece:

The missing vote in New Zealand’s flag referendum

This Thursday, March 24, the second flag referendum results will be revealed and supporters of our old flag will proudly boast “two thirds of New Zealanders voted to keep the existing flag”. Right? Wrong. Very wrong. Such a result will simply mean two thirds voted not to change it to the alternate blue/black fern design.

In fact many people who hate the old flag have already voted for it as the lesser of two evils. Better to stay with ol’ average and have the chance of getting this right next time (and despite political intimidation, there will be a next time), than change to the new slightly-better-than-average design for the rest of our lives.

The sad thing is that, despite two national referendums, we won’t actually have a single electoral statistic that tells us how many Kiwis support a change of flag. It wasn’t asked in the first referendum. It wasn’t asked in the second referendum. …

The polls suggest that the current flag will be retained – although I’d be surprised if the massive barrage of pro-change publicity and scaremongering hadn’t had an effect.

Key is conveniently leaving the country for some “time off” – the very same evening. He insists that a public rejection of his campaign for change wouldn’t damage his legacy, leading many to pose the obvious question – what legacy?

Anyway, the great flag distraction will eventually be over (after the postmortems of course). Then perhaps we can all get back to focusing on stuff that actually matters, like say: poverty and inequality in NZ, our environment and climate change, our wobbly economy and the dairy crisis, the future of health and education, fair employment conditions and equity, how to reduce child and domestic abuse, the need for ethical and competent government, planning for the future, and so on…

135 comments on “Flag distraction result today ”

  1. Phil 1

    I’m picking the result will be a 12-point margin to the current flag: 56-44.

    • BM 1.1

      Yep, all the oldies still want to be British.

      • weka 1.1.1

        and the young ones don’t want to drive off the cliff in a bus, so they’re voting to keep the flag too.

        • BM 1.1.1.1

          Young people don’t vote.

          • weka 1.1.1.1.1

            yes they do.

            • gsays 1.1.1.1.1.1

              thats right weka, our young fella was rapt to be able to vote in this referendum.
              he got my voting papers, filled them out and dutifully posted them in.

              cant say which way he voted for sure, but conversations show he sees it as a political distraction.

          • You_Fool 1.1.1.1.2

            According to the stats from the last election approx 2/3 of young voters do in fact vote.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1.1.1.3

            You wish

        • Chooky 1.1.1.2

          +100 weka…and the “young ones” are the future of New Zealand….which has a proud history of working class egalitarianism (despite the pimples) and should not be trashed

          ….Both my “young ones” who are critical and bolshie critters but also thoughtful young adults voted to keep our New Zealand flag

          ….on anti TPPA demonstrations , I was surprised at how many Maori were waving our New Zealand flag…for them it is a symbol of the Treaty and New Zealand’s ongoing obligations to our founding legal and cultural values

          jonkeys overseas corporate bankster takeover of New Zealand …NO WAY!…flag the phony away

      • vto 1.1.2

        BM you cock “Yep, all the oldies still want to be British.” , it was your lot who recently brought back the British knighthoods and crap. It is your lot who still want to be British, especially John Key. Bores

      • Eralc 1.1.3

        at what age do you classify people as ‘oldies’?

    • Bearded Git 1.2

      58-42 for me. Dunne is right we should vote soon on a republic and flag at the same time.

  2. weka 2

    How about we compile a list of John Key’s actual legacy.

    I’ll start with this, a police video where a child actor pretends to eat out of a rubbish bin and gets ignored by passers by. Legacy #1 a NZ where too many people just don’t care (see also Bill’s recent posts on WINZ, housing and fair society).

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/22/social-experiment-shows-hundreds-ignoring-homeless-boy-in-new-zealand

    • BM 2.1

      Everyone used to care when Labour was in power, we didn’t have poor people either.

      Those were the golden years.

      • weka 2.1.1

        I’m not talking about Labour you numpty.

        • adam 2.1.1.1

          Numpty has framing issues, it comes from having his head stuck up his own ideological orifice to long.

      • North 2.1.2

        You’re having excellent bowel motions this morning BM.

      • locus 2.1.3

        yes BM… they were golden years. Helen Clark was a principled, considerate and highly intelligent Labour prime minister – and during her 9 years as leader of our nation we were more united, more caring, and there was pride in being an independent pacific nation with a strong cultural identity

        under national’s reign NZ has become a divided and depressing place ruled by a tinpot dinner-party elite

        imo key now represents everything that is wrong and sick in NZ

        have you any idea of how this ‘money is everything’, dirty politics, gutless brand of me me me, pony tail pulling, shower peeing, word slurring, blatant forelock tugging to imperialism has created a laughable image overseas for our beautiful country

        • Expat 2.1.3.1

          Locus

          So wonderful to hear some truths about Labour for a change, every thing you state is absolutely correct, keep up the positive narrative.

      • Liberal Realist 2.1.4

        BM, why do you try and frame everything as partisan? Are you here just to troll or are you genuinely seeking debate and discussion? Do you actually not give a shit that successive governments in NZ have failed and continue to fail our most vulnerable citizens?

        How is it that right wingers turn their blinkers on when their lot is in power? You know there are centre-right governments who actually govern in the public interest? As someone of the left, I can acknowledge this even though I don’t agree with right wing ideology. Why are right wingers seemingly incapable of admission to the fact that the government they voted for & support are fucking over the most vulnerable?

        My point is, the Key government does not govern in the public interest. I’m sure you understand this yet you always drag out the ‘Labour …’ card. Are you incapable of critical objective thought or is it just easier following John Key’s example?

    • miravox 2.2

      #2 Pulling the ladder up by cutting funding for post secondary / second chance education

    • weka 2.3

      #3

      Felix Geiringer ‏@BarristerNZ 1 min1 minute ago

      From now on, if any PM anywhere says something that is blatantly untrue we can just call it, “doing a Key.” #Legacy

      https://twitter.com/BarristerNZ/status/712772721763979264

  3. Sabine 3

    After the flag debacle it will be Pandas. Lot’s o Pandas. Or something like this.

    • miravox 3.1

      lots o Pandas! Courtesy of these ones? 😀

      http://www.zoovienna.at/news/pandas-haben-sich-gepaart-2016/

      I can’t believe this showed up in my FB feed today.

    • mary_a 3.2

      @ Sabine – yes it will be pandas soon. However, FJK is going to have to get this one out there pretty quick, if he wants to distract public attention away from the “prominent NZer’s” court case, which begins on Monday 4 April.

      It will be all go for Most Beloved Leader, when he slithers back into the country after spending time on his knees grovelling, brown nosing etc, in Washington!

      • Sabine 3.2.1

        i myself am very keen on the ‘prominent NZ’lers’ case of entertainment. Popcorn, Vodka n Orange and othe assorted nibbles ready at the hand.

        4th o April, only a few more sleeps.

        • McFlock 3.2.1.1

          dunno about the snack food and entertainment value.

          ISTR the allegations are pretty fucked up. The vodka might be required, though.

          • Liberal Realist 3.2.1.1.1

            “ISTR the allegations are pretty fucked up. The vodka might be required, though”

            Agreed. Perhaps a ‘sick bag’ as well as Vodka?

          • sabine 3.2.1.1.2

            the allegation are the usual. the vodka is for not throwing a brick at the tv/computer/radio.
            the allegation for me are not more fucked up then the standard allegations about this type of crime that get very little mention, nor punishment in NZ.
            Someone stated yesterday that they geezer who lived in the Titirangi Kauri got a $ 1000 fine, but the geezer with the tens of thousands of child porn images gets nothing cause he is a good father. I don’t expect anything to happen to the prominent NZ’ler. These types of allegation and crimes in NZ don’t get prosecuted nor punished. A bit of a show for the plebs, but that is it.

        • Rosie 3.2.1.2

          Yeah, dunno Sabine. Those victims have had a really long and delayed wait for justice. They come first.

          Definitely all for popcorn poli moments under different circumstance. Lets have another repeat of Anti Government February! YEEEAAAHH!

          So the preliminary results for flag fail are at 8pm ish? I don’t think I can wait that long for the mini bubbly I purchased for the occasion. Might have to have a preliminary celebration! Think the result will be closer than we are anticipating.

  4. vto 4

    It has always been clear that John Key is a coward.

    You would never want to be with him in a battle….

    And here he is again fleeing ….

    • b waghorn 4.1

      If we get real lucky the spinless toad will stay gone.

    • kenny 4.2

      A coward and a liar. And a sociopath. And a creep. Did I mention liar?

      He would make a great ‘miles behind the front General’.

  5. Stuart Munro 5

    A grown-up PM wouldn’t sulk. He wouldn’t run off overseas like a scolded puppy. He wouldn’t bitch about flag change opponents. He would probably try to sell the result as a ‘triumph for democratic process’ and try not to dissolve in his own bile. Moonbeam would be wise to make herself scarce.

    • North 5.1

      As he did indeed on the night of the Northland by-election. Ran off to the cricket in Oz wasn’t it ? Didn’t even have the balls to hang around and take it on the chin with his candidate Osborne. Saw that poor used guy going into the supermarket the other day. Reflexively acknowledged him and wondered what he now really really thinks about the gutless and relentlessly corrupting man-child PM.

      • Liberal Realist 5.1.1

        “Saw that poor used guy going into the supermarket the other day. Reflexively acknowledged him and wondered what he now really really thinks about the gutless and relentlessly corrupting man-child PM.”

        Pretty sure Osbourne would eagerly engage with Key and National again if the opportunity presented itself. It’s Labour’s fault you see – particularly those nasty Labour voters who voted for Winston to keep MO and National out. Keys word is divine in the minds of the devout.

  6. locus 6

    a few days out….. Washington via Hawaii hideyhole

  7. TC 7

    Key never fronts bad news if he can get others to, maybe its findlaysons turn as he strikes me as the last one to place his thumb on his forehead in cabinet being such a dweeb.

    • North 7.1

      Finlayson ?

      You mean the snortingly haughty Lady Grantham of Tinakori ?

      • vto 7.1.1

        lol

        willy nilly finnlyson

        even 10 year old children know better than him when it is right to apologise

        he needs to backtrack his education

      • Chromophore 7.1.2

        Oh that’s great. Now, every time I see Finlayson’s arrogant face I will remember your gem of a comment. Thank you.

  8. I don’t expect we’ll change. I don’t expect it to be a landslide though, maybe 10 points difference at maximum. On the one hand, I’m glad this referendum has exposed the unpopular side of John Key to the nation. On the other hand, I would have actually liked a less colonial flag. (although ideally, not the mess chosen in the phase 1 referendum, lol) So I guess technically we can’t lose?

  9. Dazzer 9

    To me the highlight of new Labour’s political strategy. There is no policy or no policy with integrity. Labour supported a change of flag at the last election. However, quite clearly, there is one caveat – that can only happen on Labour’s watch.

    Labour will end up with egg on its face. Having fought tooth and nail to undermine this process, Labour has zero credibility on this issue. Sadly, we can add race baiting, economic insanity and whole bunch of other examples that simply demonstrate Labour has no coherent or consistent strategy apart from opposing Key.

    • weka 9.1

      “However, quite clearly, there is one caveat – that can only happen on Labour’s watch.”

      That’s a lie. Labour object to how it has been done. Go look up what actually happened.

      “Sadly, we can add race baiting, economic insanity and whole bunch of other examples that simply demonstrate Labour has no coherent or consistent strategy apart from opposing Key.”

      Yes, Labour have some issues on ethnicity. But it’s patently ridiculous to claim that Labour are all about attacking Key in a week when they’ve run a conference on one of the most important issues for NZ. I bet you haven’t even bothered looking at that, because why do something useful when you can just come online and do smeary undermining shit from your own prejudices.

    • Hanswurst 9.2

      You may possibly be right about much of that. One thing you are not right about, however, is that Labour will end up with egg on its face. Rightly or wrongly, the flag issue is stapled to Key’s face in the public and media consciousness, and he is the only one who stands to lose anything.

    • Stuart Munro 9.3

      Gnats talking about integrity – laughable.

      If Labour or the Greens had run a flag process it would have been about the flag NZ wanted, and it would have taken as long as necessary, it wouldn’t have been squeezed into Key’s last term.

      Key made it about his nauseating lack of character so NZ rejected it.

      • Key bears a lot of the blame- but Labour chose to return fire on him after he politicised the process. They are to blame for becoming hostile to the process, introducing this meme that the yes/no question should come first- which because nobody would know what “yes” means, would sabotage the whole referendum. They also proposed that we vote on the flag design using an FPP system instead of an STV system- what reason is there to do that other than to make the referendum less representative?

        They also nominally supported adding Red Peak to the phase one ballot, but tried to hold that change hostage to their proposed referendum-sabotaging plans. All in all, I am as unhappy with Labour’s decisions on the referendum part of this debate as I am with National’s cronyism on the panel side of this debate.

        Also, I expect that the proposed new flag would have been controversial whoever ran the process, it just would have been LESS controversial under a properly-run panel.

        • BM 9.3.1.1

          The panel was chosen by a cross party group of politicians.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.3.1.1.1

            Wrong again, BM.

            Initially nominated by a cross-party group, the actual members of the tea-towel committee were appointed solely by the nats:

            “The Government has appointed 12 New Zealanders as members of the Flag Consideration Panel which will engage with the public about a possible new New Zealand flag, Deputy Prime Minister Bill English says.”

            https://www.national.org.nz/news/news/media-releases/detail/2015/02/25/flag-consideration-panel-members-announced

            • BM 9.3.1.1.1.1

              From the link

              Who’s on the Cross Party MPs’ Group (CPG) and what do they do?

              The CPG made nominations for the Flag Consideration Panel and has been involved in the development of the draft New Zealand Flag Referendums Bill, making recommendations to the Responsible Minister as necessary. The Cross Party Group includes these Members of Parliament:

              Jonathan Young (Chair) National
              Hon Trevor Mallard Labour
              Dr Kennedy Graham Green
              Marama Fox Maori
              David Seymour ACT
              Hon Peter Dunne United Future

              New Zealand First opted not to take part.

              So you’re saying National disregarded the people the CPG recommended?

              I didn’t know that and I’m surprised there wasn’t more of an outcry.

              • BM- you can absolutely make bad picks from a good group of nominees by over-representing nominees from certain backgrounds. I highly doubt that the opposition allowed the nominations to go in without putting in some names that understood visual design and flags, yet somehow we got a panel that was composed entirely of prominent individuals with no experience in those fields.

                • UncookedSelachimorpha

                  Exactly, the pool of nominees was cross-party, the actual picks from that pool – the government.

              • McFlock

                Why would you expect an outcry?

                It’s not as if the pm ignored SSC recommendations in order to appoint a previously unmentioned crony as head of one of our intelligence services. It’s just a fucking flag panel.

            • Expat 9.3.1.1.1.2

              +1

              BM is a RW’er, and lying comes naturally to them.

          • Matthew Whitehead 9.3.1.1.2

            BM, the CPG didn’t choose the panel, they made nominations, and the government chose the panel. Most likely the opposition nominated several people who were qualified, as well as several ordinary New Zealanders who could round out the viewpoints on the panel. You’re also misreading what I posted- Key politicised the process and screwed up in appointing the panel, but he didn’t politicise the process BY screwing up in who he appointed to the panel. 😉 The politicisation happened when he made this referendum about his legacy as PM rather than what New Zealanders actually want to have as one of our most important national symbols.

            They ended up appointing a group that had no relevant qualifications to choosing a flag design. Now, you expect to have prominent kiwis who aren’t experts on a panel like this- but you wouldn’t expect them to dominate, let alone exclusively make up the panel. I would have wanted people from different schools of thought in the design community, and hopefully at least one vexillologist, if not two. The panel was also extremely well remunerated for its relatively minor role, and while they arguably did a pretty decent job picking a long list of flags, it was widely acknowledged that their short list was insufficiently diverse, to the point that the government had to extend the amount of choices they could make so that the most popular option left off it could be included.

            This is emblematic of the problems National often runs into when seeking advice- because they don’t trust the public sector sufficiently, they’re overly enamored with shoulder-tapping individuals they consider “prominent,” and offering to overpay them. That practice carries over into their appointments process. Sometimes they luck out and the prominent individuals really are qualified- but too often, they get a bunch of people who just screw things up at large cost.

            • BM 9.3.1.1.2.1

              Couple of points.

              The job of the flag committee was to come up with a selection of new flags that would have a chance of putting up a good show against the existing flag

              The only way to achieve that was to pick a theme and obviously from feedback they received the fern was the most preferred symbol of NZ, probably followed by the Koru.

              Having a theme instead of an assortment of different styles would mean that if someones flag of choice missed out, there’s still a chance that person may vote for the flag that goes forth to challenge the existing flag, it’s not their favorite, but it’s still a fern design.

              It’s probably the only way with a democratic vote that a challenger would have any chance of beating the incumbent

              Also

              I think National has good grounds to not trust the pubic sector, they all seem to be full of raving lefties who actively work to undermine the Government.

              It’s nothing but leaks and industrial action, no wonder National likes to do everything with private contractors, the public service just can’t seem to stay politically neutral.

              • No, the job of the flag committee was to come up with selections for alternative flags that represented New Zealand. It was up to New Zealanders to decide which one would be competitive, not the panel.

                I completely disagree that a “theme” was necessary among the final options. Yes, the most popular symbol- which was unarguably the fern- should have had two distinct choices available for it give they were only allowed by the legislation to nominate four onto the shortlist. (another dumb idea, people have enough space in their heads to decide between at least six different choices- evidence shows that when you get to about ten to twelve is when things start to get confusing even if the choices are still distinct) But you should give a chance to bolder options too- hence why Red Peak was popular with a vocal minority. I didn’t like the design personally that much, but I agreed it deserved to make the shortlist. Identifying working themes was a good process for the long list. They should really have been breaking that shortlist up into three or four working themes, and then choosing the best option from each theme for us.

                They were also completely gormless to put in the same option twice. There’s no arguing that that was silly, even people who like Lockwood’s design agree that one colour scheme was enough for the shortlist.

                And then there’s the fact that the only design that wasn’t a fern was a Koru- which is a sylised unfurling fern, lol, so in symbolic terms *all* of the chosen designs were ferns.

                As to National having grounds not to trust the public sector- please. I have worked in the public sector, and political neutrality is a HUGE deal. You don’t get hired nowadays if you can’t hack being politically neutral. Plenty of left-wing individuals faithfully try and meet the stated goals and priorities of the current government. If leaking happens, it’s because there is a good-faith belief that the government is genuinely doing something immoral or illegal, and that’s what a good employee is supposed to do under those circumstances. The correct action for the government is to first ponder whether their conduct is both legal and ethical if leaks are a problem, not simply go after the perpetrators. This is exactly why we have protections for whistle-blowers under the law.

        • lprent 9.3.1.2

          Look at the 1992 referendum on electoral reform.

    • kenny 9.4

      Labour would like to change the flag if due process was followed i.e. first find out if a majority of the general public wanted to change the flag. If they do then proceed further, not follow the John Key process we are just going through.

  10. Expat 10

    A negative outcome for NZ will result in some serious questions being raised about the integrity of the electoral office, the independent polling has been quite clear about the outcome, I simply don’t trust anything associated with Key, history shows us he is quite happy to manipulate outcomes for his own benefit.

    • Whispering Kate 10.1

      Expat – quite agree with you, being the cynic I am. Polls are dubious so I wouldn’t bother your head about them. If the new flag reigns supreme, once again I will reiterate, that approaching the Auckland Harbour Bridge with a stiff breeze, the new flag is a dog, a mish mash of insipid watery blue and white which merges into grey. Whether people dislike the old flag at least it is vivid and colourful and has a sort of Mana. A new flag would have been fine but couldn’t they have, at least, got the vibrancy of the colours right and designed a flag instead of a tea towel. Its a shame really because the design is terrible. A white feather which represents cowardice, its awful.

      • I really wish people would stop with the white feather comparison. A silver fern looks nothing like a white feather, and even if I would have preferred a different style of fern to the Lockwood design, it’s still clearly a fern. Even the fishbone criticism makes more sense. 😉

        I agree with you the colour choices are not ideal, (mostly because I’d rather not have any blue, and if we do have it, not that eyeshore shade) but it’s still like fifty times better as a flag purely for not having the Union Jack on it, at least in my book.

        • GregJ 10.1.1.1

          The white feather comparison is perfectly valid.

          It’s anecdotal & I’ve relayed this story before here but I live in the Middle East and while showing my Arab staff the four choices for the first referendum one of them asked what the “white feather” was for and did it come from the funny New Zealand bird. As an experiment I just walked across the road to the Costa Coffee shop and showed the 2 baristas (one Filipino & one Indian) the 2 choices in the 2nd referendum and asked them what the symbol was on the first flag. Both said it was a feather – like the design they make on the milk foam in a flat white!

          There was another person who commented here last year who operates a tourist business in the South Island who also made mention of how frequently tourists ask what the deal is about the “white feather” symbol they see everywhere.

          The fern on the various flag designs is so stylised it doesn’t look anything like a silver fern (actually I’m beginning to wonder how many people have ever gone out into the NZ bush and actually bloody seen the underside of a silver fern). At least it is clearer on the NZ Coat of Arms because it actually depicts it more naturally as it appears in nature with its top (green) side up.

    • gsays 10.2

      i agree expat.
      my cynical side sees this as a way to discredit current system and introduce … electronic voting.

    • Expat 10.3

      Apologies all, for my cynicism, but we are talking about JK.

      I would like to see a new Flag for NZ, but we need to separate ourselves from the monarchy first and become a republic, a new flag would be the celebration of the huge constitutional change we have gone through.

      NZ still needs to have a serious discussion on this issue (becoming a republic), and if a referendum was required to decide on embarking on the journey to a republic, I think a minimum 70% majority would be required to get it over the line, giving only a small minority against the change.

      We need someone of high character, completely bipartisan and highly respected by the public with the skills to initiate the conversation on this topic, we don’t want or need divisiveness.

      Perhaps we’ll get a new govt next year, and potentially, any opposition party could adopt a policy to promote the initiating of a republic between now and then, I think it could be vote winner.

  11. mary_a 11

    FJK’s Chief of Propaganda, Steven “Lord Haw Haw” Joyce will be the face of NatzKEY, to explain the defeat of FJK’s futile flag change effort!

  12. The Real Matthew 12

    I’ll go with 63-37 in favour of keeping the current flag

    Should run a sweepstake

  13. Myrtle 13

    78-22

  14. Phineas 14

    74-26

    “Mr Key said he would not be disappointed in New Zealanders if the current flag was retained.” RNZ

    Key will not be disappointed in me oh joy!

  15. TopHat 15

    76-24

  16. Magisterium 16

    I voted for change. I don’t care if John Key is for it, against it, or indifferent – I want the Union Jack gone.

    • rod 16.1

      No doubt you would accept a Knighthood though, eh Maggi.

      • Magisterium 16.1.1

        Any nation that would knight me for something deserves to have me associated with it.

    • kenny 16.2

      Why?

      • Magisterium 16.2.1

        In general, I want NZ to grow up and grown-up countries don’t have other countries’ flags on their flags.

        More personally and as previously posted, my great-great-grandmother and my great-great aunt were bayonetted to death at Orakau and buried in a mass grave by soldiers wearing the Union Jack.

        • Gangnam Style 16.2.1.1

          You really feel that strongly about the Union Jack? My great-great-grandfather was an Irish Fencible who came to NZ to fight for the English in the Land Wars yet I feel no guilt even tho I have his last name, & why should I? I would love a new flag but voted for the current because the White Fern design is atrocious & the whole thing has been an utter shambles.

          • Magisterium 16.2.1.1.1

            My grandfather, the grandson of the woman killed by British troops at Orakau, fought at Gallipoli, got shot, survived, got sent to the Western Front, got gassed, survived, and made it home to die and be buried in Aotearoa. His headstone bears a silver fern.

        • kenny 16.2.1.2

          I would have thought that a grown up country and its people would be mature enough to recognize the accomplishments of the main builders of this nation and not begrudge them the recognition they deserve. A place on the flag of NZ is a small price to pay for that.

          My grandfather was killed by the Germans in WW1 but I don’t feel any animosity towards them at all, thats what happens in war, people get killed. My grandmother and father probably felt some animosity but I don’t remember any. Maybe its time for you to come to terms with it, if you can.

  17. McFlock 17

    56-44 in favour of current flag.

    • Rosie 17.1

      Thats yourself and Phil that have gone with 56-44 in favour the current flag. Being a pessimist I’ll go with that option. Happy to see it higher of course 😀

  18. happynz 18

    52 – 48 for the current New Zealand flag with several thousand disqualified ballots with alternative suggestions (mostly representations of genitalia).

  19. Ovid 19

    62-38 to retain the current flag

  20. Bill 20

    58/42

  21. Paul 21

    56/44
    Hope it’s more though….

  22. b waghorn 22

    52 to 48 the Lockwood wins. Just because someone has to.:-)

    • Expat 22.1

      I bet the odds are much better to gamble, if the underdog comes through, but I don’t know how the NZ public would handle the change.

  23. ankerawshark 23

    65 – 35…….Old flag stays.

  24. Observer (Tokoroa) 24

    Court Query
    .
    With regard to The Prominent NZ’ds Court case, is the accused well known to Mr Key?

    Will the hearing likely be unsavoury and somewhat (however remotely) in keeping with our Prime Minister’s frequently bizarre behaviour?

    I hope John Key doesn’t fiddle with President Obama’s daughters while he is in Washington. We have suffered enough global humiliation from this incompetent wretch of a PM.

    • Ovid 24.1

      With regard to The Prominent NZ’ds Court case, is the accused well known to Mr Key?

      The trial date is set for 4 April. Given suppression is in place to protect the identity of the victims, I suspect the accused will be granted permanent name suppression.

      • Observer (Tokoroa) 24.1.1

        .
        Thanks Ovid

        . I had no idea that it was a name suppression case. So we won’t even know if the accused is a member of National’s caucus, or some other circus.

        How good is secrecy !

  25. gsays 25

    ok.
    54-46 to the new design.
    sorry b waghorn for picking yr nose.

  26. AsleepWhileWalking 26

    Since they aren’t bound by the result either way, I predict the new flag will in fact bare a striking resemblance to the N (with sideways Z + four red Southern Cross stars) from the National Party.

  27. Stuart Munro 27

    New flag wins 70/30 – Key changes the result to the Lockwood flag as a dry run for rigging the election.

    • Chooky 27.1

      lol…it would be more trouble for him that what it would be worth…it would absolutely prove what everyone knows already

  28. rod 28

    I wonder if Mike, Audrey and Ritchi are doing the counting.

  29. Noah 29

    Some ten days ago,our Prime Minister,on the morning radio and tele shows,look what has been lost and WHAT THE PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND,that if we vote to change the flag,it will only happen when we become a republic,and that is not going to happen in my life time.Dance of the desperate,as his support flags.

    Yet even all this last day he saying the morning Radio shows , AND EVERY ONE AFTER,well im unusual butterflies.Our internal polling says its close.If it was a general election it would be called blatant interference in a attempt to influence those late voters choice.But the dance of the desperate has all shapes to throw, in its desperation, to be won.

  30. Lanthanide 30

    59/41 to keep.

  31. UncookedSelachimorpha 31

    Maybe a North Korean result?

    107% support for the new flag.

  32. Noah 32

    It is inevitable that one day we will be republic Aotearoa,its sided in our passports.New ZEALAND Aotearoa,so should it be the Tino flag or the compromise Red Peak,that encompasses not only the Tino but the Brit Jack colours.

  33. Noah 33

    It is inevitable that one day we will be republic Aotearoa,its sided in our passports.New ZEALAND Aotearoa,so should it be the Tino flag or the compromise Red Peak,that encompasses not only the Tino but the Brit Jack colours of our past..

  34. Noah 34

    Mind you,it could be named Fonterra Land.

  35. Nick 35

    60-40 no change.

    I wonder if Obama will make a jokey threat at Shonkey about not touching his daughters hair….or perhaps Michelle just ushers her kids inside the house and away from the dodgy man from Hobbiton

  36. BM 36

    53-47 new flag.

  37. Observer (Tokoroa) 38

    .
    Flag or Feather
    .
    I have had a bit of a look at John and Richie’s flag.

    The blimmin thing has got a long white feather running diagonally down it

    White feathers are not appropriate for Richie.

    • Chooky 38.1

      maybe he likes being tickled with a feather …some people do have very odd fetishes

      • Bill 38.1.1

        Aw gawd. Just got an image of him strutting around the dressing rooms with an ostrich feathered butt plug. Thanks chooky. Need to go and gouge my brain now.

  38. Expat 39

    Yay, $25m down the drain in wasted egoism, the nail is in the coffin for Key.

  39. Geoff Neal 40

    Thanks Anthony. If you liked that article, you’re going to love this one that just went live…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/winning-new-zealand-flag-design-your-views/14283879/12-things-the-flag-process-got-very-wrong

    • lprent 40.1

      Votes would be limited to one per IP address

      Idiotic. What that means is that anyone with even basic technical skills can vote as many times as they like.

      If they are technically literate like I am, which obviously the fool writing that article wasn’t, then you can program in whatever result was desired.

      Some of the other points were kind if valid. But the level of similar shallow dumbness permeates the whole article.

      • Geoff Neal 40.1.1

        “Idiotic”, “fool”, “shallow dumbness” – that’s a bit rough Iprent. Most people responded with smart, progressive comments.

        The point was YouTube, Facebook etc have voting buttons to increase engagement, and help good content rise, and bad content sink. The flag submission site could and should have had the same. Do you disagree?

        99.9% of people have no idea how to rig voting on those sites. We clearly don’t all share your IT prowess. All hail you!

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    Warm welcome again to those who are here. The Mountain Tui substack was officially started on the 2nd of July. I wrote about what led me here on this post. Since then, it’s been a learning to navigate the platform, get to meet those in the community, and basically be ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
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  • About fucking time

    The US Supreme Court has been rogue for years, with openly corrupt judges making the law up as they go to suit themselves, their billionaire buyers, and the Republican Party. But now, in the wake of them granting a licence for tyranny, President Biden is actually going to try and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: False accounting and wishful thinking

    National released their draft 2026-2030 Emissions Reduction Plan today. The plan is required under the Zero Carbon Act, and must set out policies and strategies to meet the relevant emissions budget. Having cancelled all Labour's actually effective climate change policies and crashed the carbon price, National was always going to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The Enemies Of Sunshine And Space.

    Our Houses? The Urban Density debate is a horrible combination of intergenerational avarice and envy, fuelled by the grim certainty that none of the generations coming up after them will ever have it as good as the Boomers. To say that this situation rankles among those born after 1965 is to ...
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  • Still the 5 Eyes Achilles Heel?

    The National Cyber Security Centre (NZSC), a unit in the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) dedicated to cyber-security, has released a Review of its response to the 2021 email hacking of NZ members of the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China (IPAC, … Continue reading ...
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  • Britain's Devastating Electoral Slip.

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  • Gordon Campbell on why right wingers think all governments (including their own) are incompetent

    Since open denial of climate change is no longer a viable political option, denial now comes in disguise. The release this week of the coalition government’s ‘draft emissions reductions plan” shows that the Luxon government is refusing to see the need to cut emissions at source. Instead, it proposes to ...
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  • The Kākā's Chorus for Wednesday, July 17

    TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy this morning are:Chris Penk is set to roll back building standards for insulation that had only just been put in place, and which had been estimated to save 40% from power costs, after builders ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
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  • Open Letter to Pharmac

    All this talk of getting oldIt's getting me down, my loveLike a cat in a bag, waiting to drownThis time I'm coming downAnd I hope you're thinking of meAs you lay down on your sideNow the drugs don't workThey just make you worse but I know I'll see your face ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
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  • Kiwis having their say on first regulatory review

    After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks.  “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
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  • Government upgrading Lower North Island commuter rail

    The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 hours ago
  • Government moves to ensure flood protection for Wairoa

    Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • PM speech to Parliament – Royal Commission of Inquiry’s Report into Abuse in Care

    Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care.  At the heart of this report are the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • Government acknowledges torture at Lake Alice

    For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • Government acknowledges courageous abuse survivors

    The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • Half a million people use tax calculator

    With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis.  “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    24 hours ago
  • Paid Parental Leave improvements pass first reading

    Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Rebuilding the economy through better regulation

    Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • ‘Open banking’ and ‘open electricity’ on the way

    New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Charity lotteries to be permitted to operate online

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Accelerating Northland Expressway

    The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Sir Don to travel to Viet Nam as special envoy

    Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced.    “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Grant Illingworth KC appointed as transitional Commissioner to Royal Commission

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024.  “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ to advance relationships with ASEAN partners

    Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane.    “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says.   “This will be our third visit to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Backing mental health services on the West Coast

    Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ support for sustainable Pacific fisheries

    New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Students’ needs at centre of new charter school adjustments

    Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Commissioner replaces Health NZ Board

    In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today.  “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Minister to speak at Australian Space Forum

    Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum.  While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation.  “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Climate Change Minister to attend climate action meeting in China

    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan.  “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Oceans and Fisheries Minister to Solomons

    Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government launches Military Style Academy Pilot

    The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Nine priority bridge replacements to get underway

    The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Update on global IT outage

    Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand, Japan renew Pacific partnership

    New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says.    “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New infrastructure energises BOP forestry towns

    New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • 'Pacific Futures'

    President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests.    Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone.    Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Delivering 24 hour pothole repairs

    Kiwis and freight operators will benefit from the Coalition Government delivering on its commitment to introduce targets that will ensure a greater number of potholes on our state highways are identified and fixed within 24 hours, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Increasing productivity to help rebuild our economy is a key ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Peer Support Specialists rolled out in hospitals

    Five hospitals have been selected to trial a new mental health and addiction peer support service in their emergency departments as part of the Government’s commitment to increase access to mental health and addiction support for New Zealanders, says Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey.  “Peer Support Specialists in EDs will ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Consultation opens for the Emissions Reduction Plan

    The Government’s draft Emissions Reduction Plan shows we can stay within the limits of the first two emissions budgets while growing the economy, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “This draft Emissions Reduction Plan shows that with effective climate change policies we can both grow the economy and deliver our ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Benefit stats highlight need for welfare reset

    The coalition Government is providing extra support for job seekers to ensure as many Kiwis as possible are in work or preparing for work, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “While today’s quarterly data showing a rise in the number of people on Jobseeker benefits has been long ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • School attendance continues to increase

    Provisional school attendance data for Term 2 2024 released today has shown more students are back in class compared to last year, with 53.1 per cent of students regularly attending, compared with 47 per cent in Term 2 2023, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. “The Government has prioritised student ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • $22.7m of West Coast resilience projects underway

    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news of progress being made by the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) on the first of several crucial resilience projects underway on the South Island’s West Coast.“State highways across the West Coast are critical lifelines for communities throughout the region, including for freight and tourism. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Migrant school leavers to get part-time work rights

    The coalition Government is providing migrant school leavers with greater opportunities, by increasing access to part-time work rights for those awaiting the outcome of a family residence application, Immigration Minister Erica Stanford has announced.  “Many young people who are part of a family residence application process are unable to work. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Funding to support use of NZ Sign Language

    Seven projects have received government funding totalling nearly $250,000 to maintain and promote the use of New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL). Initiatives that received an NZSL Board Community Grants this year include camps that support the use of NZSL through physical and sensory activities, and clubs where Deaf people and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Inflation data shows progress in economic recovery

    Today’s Consumer Price Index data which has inflation at 3.3 per cent for the year to July 2024, shows we are turning our economy around and winning the fight against rampant inflation, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says.  “While today’s data will be welcome news for Kiwis, I know many New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Experts to advise Minister on Oranga Tamariki

    The Oranga Tamariki Ministerial Advisory Board has been re-established by the Minister for Children, Karen Chhour. “I look forward to working with the new board to continue to ensure Oranga Tamariki and the care and protection system, are entirely child centric,” Minister Chhour says. “The board will provide independent advice ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Expectations set for improved medicines access

    Associate Health Minister David Seymour says he has set clear expectations for Pharmac around delivering the medicines and medical technology that Kiwis need.  “For many New Zealanders, funding for pharmaceuticals is life or death, or the difference between a life of pain and suffering or living freely. New cancer medicines ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Regional Development Minister to host summits

    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones will hold a series of nationwide summits to discuss regional priorities, aspirations and opportunities, with the first kicking off in Nelson on August 12. The 15 summits will facilitate conversations about progressing regional economic growth and opportunities to drive productivity, prosperity and resilience through the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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