web analytics

Flip flopping on the beach

Written By: - Date published: 11:02 am, December 10th, 2010 - 38 comments
Categories: dpf, flip-flop, foreshore and seabed - Tags: ,

The usual suspects are accusing Labour of “flip flopping” on its position on the foreshore and seabed. You have to admire their bare-faced gall eh?

38 comments on “Flip flopping on the beach ”

  1. burt 1

    So are you saying the Labour party hasn’t been changing it’s position with every internal poll in a desperate attempt to stay popular ?

    • lprent 1.1

      Nope – wrong again (keep trying and like a monkey at a typewriter you’ll get it right eventually)

      But National appears to change its position depending on who is screaming the loudest in the coalition.

      It appears that the continual compromises and lack of consultation have made Labour decide that it Findlayson wasn’t achieving anything. Personally I’d have dumped support many many months ago.

      • Jim Nald 1.1.1

        Personally, I thought Labour/other parties might have felt like myself, that National and Finlayson be given a go to sort it out (even though that didn’t feel particularly palatable as the Nat nuts beat the drums of division).

        But the previous months reveal they are making a more protracted mess. Finlayson’s style, to put it politely, has not helped. And the Nat nuts’ modus operandi seem to be increasingly questionable. So I won’t necessarily disagree if more of our Parliamentarians take a deep breath and reconsider.

      • felix 1.1.2

        I usually find burt gets it right twice a day.

    • bbfloyd 1.2

      burt… no, you are… which qualifies the statement as utter bullshit.

  2. Bill 2

    Thing is, that poster was what National were saying Labour was saying. But when it came down to it labour were essentially up to fair bit of jiggery-pokery with their F&S legislation.

    I’m a bit hazy on this and welcome any correction, but…

    Now they are saying that they will legislate to give claims access to the courts? Is that right? And is that what they blocked in the initial legislation?

    If so, then they’ve flip-flopped. But it’s a good thing.

    Question is, will the apparent empowering effect of the flip flop be neutered in the ensuing fine print?

    edit Or be rendered as anti trade and open to penalty actions under any proposed free trade deals?

    • Craig Glen Eden 2.1

      Flip flop is when you are in a interview and you say this is the situation peps its black, but then later in the day you say oh no hang on no, no it’s white.Thats a flip flop
      Policy change is done over time and the Party acknowledges we got that wrong in this area that need’s to change and our policy is now including these changes.

      Turia wont be able to handle Labour’s new position it gives her no axe to grind and no political reason to exist. Watch her cry and get very nasty!

        • Craig Glen Eden

          As I have said in the past this woman is impossible to get a position from when talking to her. She is bitter and twisted it evens shows in the press release. She is all over the place What is it that she wants, just to spew on Labour, fine next.

          • marty mars

            Tariana’s statement was in response to labour pulling its support for the repeal – therefore to mention labour, and her opinion of them and their position, in her media release is totally appropriate. You may not like her truth but she is entitled to say it isn’t she?

            • Craig Glen Eden

              Her truth oh ok fair enough.

              So she hated Labour’s seabed and foreshore because it was insulting to Maori it was so bad for Maori, replaced it with almost exactly the same and called it a success. Now labour says yup we got it wrong we need to do more and Turia says Maori wont forget what Labour has done ( insulting Maori). The truth as I see it it suited her purpose.

              Maori might just remember that Turia was unprincipled and would enable an act that did nothing more than what Labour put up, first. While she was at it wages and income for Maori families dropped unemployment rose thats Turias legacy.

              In short Turia is a bitter and twisted sellout and I think the press release shows just how twisted.

        • Bill

          What a strange, contradictory and incoherent press release.

          anti-spam being sentient and psychic again? DISASTER

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2

        Turia wont be able to handle Labour’s new position it gives her no axe to grind and no political reason to exist. Watch her cry and get very nasty!

        IMO, the Maori Party ceased to have any political reason to exist when it joined the National Party.

        • pollywog

          If the Maori party sign the current act into law they really won’t have any reason to exist.

          fait accompli…they succeeded in their ‘one trick’ party status and they’ll have to go back to the electorate for a fresh mandate on a “new” issue…

          …she’ll be hoping like hell hapu buy into Whanau Ora and they can get some good looking stats up before the election or else it’s game over

  3. tc 3

    The quicker Turia slings her hook and buggers off to her Whanau Ora gravy train bequethed to her by the Nats the better.

    Quit living in the past and look at what’s in front of you, Labour know F&S was a bad political move made with the best of intentions and in good faith have tried to stick with it for a better solution.

    But like most issues under NACT the rules change, agenda’s shuffle and their courting of the rednecks with iwi/kiwi has made it very hard for them to broker a workable political outcome….boo hoo, enjoy lying in that bed you made for yourselves.

    gee this consensus stuff alot harder than being dictatorial….funny that.

  4. prism 4

    Labour may have been wrong or could have done things better. Good on them for being prepared to think again and raise doubts. Better than having MPs turn themselves into concrete statues stuck rigidly on some plinth of foolishness.

    • Bill 4.1

      Just an observation. And slightly beyond or off topic.

      But under a system where politicians are meant to be representatives, should they be expressing any personal or party aligned opinion at all? Shouldn’t they merely ape our opinions and concerns rather than spend time and thought seeking to shape and guide debate? Isn’t that our role? As citizens?

      Jeez. I need coffee to wake me up. I forgot. We are spectators and our singular role is to cheer on this team or that team of our ‘betters’ and to never forget to fall in line behind their ‘official’ or sanctioned programmes of what is or might be.


      • prism 4.1.1

        Bill Is that a discussion on whether we have either representative or participative democracy? I don’t want everyone in the public who has a kneejerk reaction or deeply dyed prejudice deciding policy but I also don’t want a bunch of jerks who can con with well spoken words from a speech writer along with a smile and a wave making an arse of the country’s laws and values.

        • Bill

          Hi Prism

          To answer your question as to whether I’m conducting, or seeking a discussion on systems of representative versus participatory democratic models. No, not really. There’s plenty of scope on this blog to have that discussion elsewhere.

          I was merely making an observation on our representative model of democracy. Judged by terms of reference signposted by your comment, our system of representative democracy would appear to be deeply flawed and unrepresentative. That’s all.

    • Jim Nald 4.2

      The circumstances have been shifting and changing in the course of the debate. One would not expect any decent parliamentarian to stick stupidly, stubbornly or sloganistically to an untenable or unfair position. One would expect our legislators to do the correct thing for the present and long term interest of the people – on an individual and collective basis.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1

        One would not expect any decent parliamentarian to stick stupidly, stubbornly or sloganistically to an untenable or unfair position.

        But we would definitely expect that from the parliamentarians in National.

  5. you must admit r0b it is pretty ironic – suddenly labour is championing going to courts – no wonder many maori don’t trust them. The gnats are transparent and no one is fooled – they are pushing this because of the confidence and supply agreement with the MP. We know the gnats don’t give a fuck.

    I oppose the repeal because it does not empower maori – why do labour oppose it again – same reason as they put the shit F&S Act in in the first place IMO.

    Maori have become the political football of choice for those who love to put the boot in – sadly the red and the blue merge into a dirty gray for those who feel the tred on the back of the neck.

    • Labour’s FSA allowed Maori to go to Court. Have a look at http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0093/latest/DLM320263.html#DLM320263

      A positive finding then required negotiations between the crown and the affected party.

    • Jum 5.2

      Marty Mars,

      Still the same point applies; Maori should not be treated as if they are something other than people; there are good people and there are bad people. One set of ‘owners’ will protect everyone’s rights to the foreshore and seabed; other generations may not.

      Tariana Turia was looking for an excuse to go on a mission. She found one and it was grossly misrepresented ( see Micky Savage’s post 5.10) by both media and Maori marches/hikois to hype up the public. Clark supported Turia in Parliament and taught her the ropes. Turia makes like the great Matriarch now but she is still the sovereignty activist she always was and will seek to control New Zealand; that is her party’s goal. Let’s not be coy about that. Whatever legislation goes through in New Zealand total control over land and sovereignty is the end goal and will not change. Tariana and her Party believe they are above Aotearoans/New Zealanders.

      PS. I haven’t been able to check out the Moku being prevented by National Council of Women; when I do find out from my friend I will let you know their side of the story; there are always two sides as I’m sure you will remind me!

      • marty mars 5.2.1

        Kia ora Jum

        I don’t see it as above, for me it is about equality and the statistics tell the story – there is no equality at the moment. Plus it is about fairness – eventually people might realise that to take just about everything off an indigenous people is wrong and no matter how long it takes that wrong must be righted. When there is equality then the foundations of this country will be true instead of crooked as they are at the moment. I believe the resistance to fixing this and other issues relates to the priviledge that the power-holders have, and don’t want to lose. We all have to look in the mirror over that one.

        I am sorry for being a bit of a smartarse during our last exchange but I only did it because I care 🙂

  6. deemac 6

    political parties change all the time, otherwise we’d never get anywhere. Few do such complete about-turns as the Nats between opposing the original F&S Act as too soft on Maori and their position now, but apparently that isn’t a flip flop! Presumably because the MSM’s paymasters like the Nats and give them an easy ride.
    By the way, Turia’s comments show she is much more concerned with her ancient feud with the Labour Party than with actually finding a solution that might work for everyone – petty and unworthy of a minister of the Crown, I’d have thought. And I do wonder why no interviewer ever calls her on her “I speak for all Maori” attitude when their support is around 3%…

  7. Bill 7

    Putting aside what seems to be a red herring concerning public access for a moment.

    Anybody care to enlighten me on the respective positions re: the right to commercially exploit mineral or other resources deemed to be in or on the area designated as foreshore and seabed?

    Am I right in saying that Labour invested any rights to exploitation with the crown? Did the Nats shift this to allow for private exploitation? If that’s the case, do Maori elites get ‘an in’ that didn’t previously exist under the Labour legislation?

    What I’m asking is, when it’s ‘done and dusted’, is all this too-ing and fro-ing going to transpire to be nothing much more than the playing out of a three way competition (with shifting alliances) over legislation that will institutionalise market advantage?

  8. RobertM 8

    If you want NZ to be a sophisticated multi cultural nation, I judge Helen Clark got this issue right. Customary rights are an archaic archeological right, dredged up jurists to give another opening to idigenous peoples rights. On the face of it, customary rights are a relatively weak claim in no way the power of the Treaty of Waitangi treated literally. A claim and a right would have to be used and exploited since the start of European settlement to the present day. But the definition of continuous use is open to legal interpretation. Was it not the now chief judge of the Supreme Court, Sian Elias who in an earlier ruling in a lower court held that a claim for customary rights by a tribe in the low populated ‘maori’ area of the Marlborough Sounds had enough weight to be tested legally. If the final court of appeal for NZ was still the Privy Council you could have even less confidence on the jurists there to rule sensibly on these matters given their attitude to NZ and pronounced liberal sentiments on issues of race and pacific islanders. It is the very reason why appeals to the Privy Council were abolished. Because without wanting to appear in any way racist to a British or Australian court it is quite likely that it would be held that the rights of the idigneous are equal or superior to the settlers.
    In summary I think Clark was very wise on this issue – if you want NZ to survive long term. This issue should not be a matter for consideration for any court-in part because of the wedge likely to be driven by the jurists and because customary rights are archaic and aren’t the way these issues should be considered and weighted.

    • insider 8.1

      That’s ignorant and wrong. Customary rights have been around in many mainly commonwealth jurisdictions for a 150 years or so. They are a sign of a very just system and the balances that the law can bring to policy. They are a recognition that a ‘change of ownership’ of a country through colonisation does not extinguish all the previous owners’ rights. Recognition of customary rights is the sign of a very sophisticated system.

      The PC would have been a perfect place to review these issues because they are the result of the common law, judge made law, and not only would the PC judges have fine minds they would have the experience of dealing with or observing similar issues from other jurisdictions. I’d be more nervous leaving it to Elias as I think she is an agenda driven judge and poor choice as head of the SC.

      The saddest part of this issue is the delusion by Maori that this process would lead to a lower level of proof for CT. Not sure who has been the cause of that. Might just be wishful thinking by Harawira and co or a deliberate strategy to try and shift the bar.

    • pollywog 8.2

      Here where i live theres an island owned by a german industrialist, an urupa, a tidal estuary ‘owned’ by Maori, farmland ‘bought’ under dubious circumstances, a fierecly guarded private access beach road, a boat jetty used by anyone and all bordering on each other with no policing as the whole thing is tied up in a no mans land of contentious rights and ownership until the foreshore seabed debacle get settled…

      …meanwhile i’m out there swimming, paddling around and collecting shellfish like it’s christmas

      can’t complain really 🙂

      captcha : locations (locations locations)

      • ak 8.2.1

        And here where I live Poll, there’s a whanau with at least four distinctly discrete and fiercely-maintained cultural backgrounds doing exactly the same thing in a similarly legislative no-man’s-land; united solely – but profoundly – by a common acceptance that some places should never be tamed. Or owned.

        Go, Goffy. Universal, total, circumferential access (yeah, yeah, ports, sanctuaries etc): let us all go to the beach – and let the clowns dispute the circus wherever the frock they will.

  9. Swampy 9

    Reeally? I thought it was in the NZ Herald article which listed the different positions Labour has taken on this matter.

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Celebrating the Entry Into Force of the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons
    [Opening comments, welcome and thank you to Auckland University etc] It is a great pleasure to be here this afternoon to celebrate such an historic occasion - the entry into force of the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. This is a moment many feared would never come, but ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    9 hours ago
  • Supporting disabled people to stay connected
    The Government is providing $3 million in one-off seed funding to help disabled people around New Zealand stay connected and access support in their communities, Minister for Disability Issues, Carmel Sepuloni announced today. The funding will allow disability service providers to develop digital and community-based solutions over the next two ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Voluntary saliva testing offered to quarantine workers from Monday
    Border workers in quarantine facilities will be offered voluntary daily COVID-19 saliva tests in addition to their regular weekly testing, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. This additional option will be rolled out at the Jet Park Quarantine facility in Auckland starting on Monday 25 January, and then to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago
  • Next steps in firearms buy-back
    The next steps in the Government’s ambitious firearms reform programme to include a three-month buy-back have been announced by Police Minister Poto Williams today.  “The last buy-back and amnesty was unprecedented for New Zealand and was successful in collecting 60,297 firearms, modifying a further 5,630 firearms, and collecting 299,837 prohibited ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • New Public Housing Plan announced
    The Government has released its Public Housing Plan 2021-2024 which outlines the intention of where 8,000 additional public and transitional housing places announced in Budget 2020, will go. “The Government is committed to continuing its public house build programme at pace and scale. The extra 8,000 homes – 6000 public ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Prime Minister congratulates President Joe Biden on his inauguration
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has congratulated President Joe Biden on his inauguration as the 46th President of the United States of America. “I look forward to building a close relationship with President Biden and working with him on issues that matter to both our countries,” Jacinda Ardern said. “New Zealand ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Jobs for Nature funding will create training and employment opportunities
    A major investment to tackle wilding pines in Mt Richmond will create jobs and help protect the area’s unique ecosystems, Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor says. The Mt Richmond Forest Park has unique ecosystems developed on mineral-rich geology, including taonga plant species found nowhere else in the country. “These special plant ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Pre-departure testing extended to all passengers to New Zealand
    To further protect New Zealand from COVID-19, the Government is extending pre-departure testing to all passengers to New Zealand except from Australia, Antarctica and most Pacific Islands, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “The change will come into force for all flights arriving in New Zealand after 11:59pm (NZT) on Monday ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Bay Cadets learn skills to protect environment
    Bay Conservation Cadets launched with first intake Supported with $3.5 million grant Part of $1.245b Jobs for Nature programme to accelerate recover from Covid Cadets will learn skills to protect and enhance environment Environment Minister David Parker today welcomed the first intake of cadets at the launch of the Bay ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Cook Islanders to resume travel to New Zealand
    The Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern and the Prime Minister of the Cook Islands Mark Brown have announced passengers from the Cook Islands can resume quarantine-free travel into New Zealand from 21 January, enabling access to essential services such as health. “Following confirmation of the Cook Islands’ COVID ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Supporting communities and landowners to grow employment opportunities
    Jobs for Nature funding is being made available to conservation groups and landowners to employ staff and contractors in a move aimed at boosting local biodiversity-focused projects, Conservation Minister Kiritapu Allan has announced. It is estimated some 400-plus jobs will be created with employment opportunities in ecology, restoration, trapping, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Border exception for some returning international tertiary students
    The Government has approved an exception class for 1000 international tertiary students, degree level and above, who began their study in New Zealand but were caught offshore when border restrictions began. The exception will allow students to return to New Zealand in stages from April 2021. “Our top priority continues ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Tiwai deal gives time for managed transition
    Today’s deal between Meridian and Rio Tinto for the Tiwai smelter to remain open another four years provides time for a managed transition for Southland. “The deal provides welcome certainty to the Southland community by protecting jobs and incomes as the region plans for the future. The Government is committed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New member for APEC Business Advisory Council
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has appointed Anna Curzon to the APEC Business Advisory Council (ABAC). The leader of each APEC economy appoints three private sector representatives to ABAC. ABAC provides advice to leaders annually on business priorities. “ABAC helps ensure that APEC’s work programme is informed by business community perspectives ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Govt’s careful economic management recognised
    The Government’s prudent fiscal management and strong policy programme in the face of the COVID-19 global pandemic have been acknowledged by the credit rating agency Fitch. Fitch has today affirmed New Zealand’s local currency rating at AA+ with a stable outlook and foreign currency rating at AA with a positive ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Additional actions to keep COVID-19 out of NZ
    The Government is putting in place a suite of additional actions to protect New Zealand from COVID-19, including new emerging variants, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “Given the high rates of infection in many countries and evidence of the global spread of more transmissible variants, it’s clear that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • 19 projects will clean up and protect waterways
    $36 million of Government funding alongside councils and others for 19 projects Investment will clean up and protect waterways and create local jobs Boots on the ground expected in Q2 of 2021 Funding part of the Jobs for Nature policy package A package of 19 projects will help clean up ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New Zealand Government acknowledges 175th anniversary of Battle of Ruapekapeka
    The commemoration of the 175th anniversary of the Battle of Ruapekapeka represents an opportunity for all New Zealanders to reflect on the role these conflicts have had in creating our modern nation, says Associate Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Kiri Allan. “The Battle at Te Ruapekapeka Pā, which took ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Better care for babies with tongue-tie
    Babies born with tongue-tie will be assessed and treated consistently under new guidelines released by the Ministry of Health, Associate Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall announced today. Around 5% to 10% of babies are born with a tongue-tie, or ankyloglossia, in New Zealand each year. At least half can ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Prisoner disorder event at Waikeria Prison over
    The prisoner disorder event at Waikeria Prison is over, with all remaining prisoners now safely and securely detained, Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis says. The majority of those involved in the event are members of the Mongols and Comancheros. Five of the men are deportees from Australia, with three subject to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Pre-departure COVID-19 test for travellers from the UK and the US from 15 January
    Travellers from the United Kingdom or the United States bound for New Zealand will be required to get a negative test result for COVID-19 before departing, and work is underway to extend the requirement to other long haul flights to New Zealand, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins confirmed today. “The new PCR test requirement, foreshadowed last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago