web analytics

Flip flopping on the beach

Written By: - Date published: 11:02 am, December 10th, 2010 - 38 comments
Categories: dpf, flip-flop, foreshore and seabed - Tags: ,

The usual suspects are accusing Labour of “flip flopping” on its position on the foreshore and seabed. You have to admire their bare-faced gall eh?

38 comments on “Flip flopping on the beach ”

  1. burt 1

    So are you saying the Labour party hasn’t been changing it’s position with every internal poll in a desperate attempt to stay popular ?

    • lprent 1.1

      Nope – wrong again (keep trying and like a monkey at a typewriter you’ll get it right eventually)

      But National appears to change its position depending on who is screaming the loudest in the coalition.

      It appears that the continual compromises and lack of consultation have made Labour decide that it Findlayson wasn’t achieving anything. Personally I’d have dumped support many many months ago.

      • Jim Nald 1.1.1

        Personally, I thought Labour/other parties might have felt like myself, that National and Finlayson be given a go to sort it out (even though that didn’t feel particularly palatable as the Nat nuts beat the drums of division).

        But the previous months reveal they are making a more protracted mess. Finlayson’s style, to put it politely, has not helped. And the Nat nuts’ modus operandi seem to be increasingly questionable. So I won’t necessarily disagree if more of our Parliamentarians take a deep breath and reconsider.

      • felix 1.1.2

        I usually find burt gets it right twice a day.

    • bbfloyd 1.2

      burt… no, you are… which qualifies the statement as utter bullshit.

  2. Bill 2

    Thing is, that poster was what National were saying Labour was saying. But when it came down to it labour were essentially up to fair bit of jiggery-pokery with their F&S legislation.

    I’m a bit hazy on this and welcome any correction, but…

    Now they are saying that they will legislate to give claims access to the courts? Is that right? And is that what they blocked in the initial legislation?

    If so, then they’ve flip-flopped. But it’s a good thing.

    Question is, will the apparent empowering effect of the flip flop be neutered in the ensuing fine print?

    edit Or be rendered as anti trade and open to penalty actions under any proposed free trade deals?

    • Craig Glen Eden 2.1

      Flip flop is when you are in a interview and you say this is the situation peps its black, but then later in the day you say oh no hang on no, no it’s white.Thats a flip flop
      Policy change is done over time and the Party acknowledges we got that wrong in this area that need’s to change and our policy is now including these changes.

      Turia wont be able to handle Labour’s new position it gives her no axe to grind and no political reason to exist. Watch her cry and get very nasty!

        • Craig Glen Eden

          As I have said in the past this woman is impossible to get a position from when talking to her. She is bitter and twisted it evens shows in the press release. She is all over the place What is it that she wants, just to spew on Labour, fine next.

          • marty mars

            Tariana’s statement was in response to labour pulling its support for the repeal – therefore to mention labour, and her opinion of them and their position, in her media release is totally appropriate. You may not like her truth but she is entitled to say it isn’t she?

            • Craig Glen Eden

              Her truth oh ok fair enough.

              So she hated Labour’s seabed and foreshore because it was insulting to Maori it was so bad for Maori, replaced it with almost exactly the same and called it a success. Now labour says yup we got it wrong we need to do more and Turia says Maori wont forget what Labour has done ( insulting Maori). The truth as I see it it suited her purpose.

              Maori might just remember that Turia was unprincipled and would enable an act that did nothing more than what Labour put up, first. While she was at it wages and income for Maori families dropped unemployment rose thats Turias legacy.

              In short Turia is a bitter and twisted sellout and I think the press release shows just how twisted.

        • Bill

          What a strange, contradictory and incoherent press release.

          anti-spam being sentient and psychic again? DISASTER

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2

        Turia wont be able to handle Labour’s new position it gives her no axe to grind and no political reason to exist. Watch her cry and get very nasty!

        IMO, the Maori Party ceased to have any political reason to exist when it joined the National Party.

        • pollywog

          If the Maori party sign the current act into law they really won’t have any reason to exist.

          fait accompli…they succeeded in their ‘one trick’ party status and they’ll have to go back to the electorate for a fresh mandate on a “new” issue…

          …she’ll be hoping like hell hapu buy into Whanau Ora and they can get some good looking stats up before the election or else it’s game over

  3. tc 3

    The quicker Turia slings her hook and buggers off to her Whanau Ora gravy train bequethed to her by the Nats the better.

    Quit living in the past and look at what’s in front of you, Labour know F&S was a bad political move made with the best of intentions and in good faith have tried to stick with it for a better solution.

    But like most issues under NACT the rules change, agenda’s shuffle and their courting of the rednecks with iwi/kiwi has made it very hard for them to broker a workable political outcome….boo hoo, enjoy lying in that bed you made for yourselves.

    gee this consensus stuff alot harder than being dictatorial….funny that.

  4. prism 4

    Labour may have been wrong or could have done things better. Good on them for being prepared to think again and raise doubts. Better than having MPs turn themselves into concrete statues stuck rigidly on some plinth of foolishness.

    • Bill 4.1

      Just an observation. And slightly beyond or off topic.

      But under a system where politicians are meant to be representatives, should they be expressing any personal or party aligned opinion at all? Shouldn’t they merely ape our opinions and concerns rather than spend time and thought seeking to shape and guide debate? Isn’t that our role? As citizens?

      Jeez. I need coffee to wake me up. I forgot. We are spectators and our singular role is to cheer on this team or that team of our ‘betters’ and to never forget to fall in line behind their ‘official’ or sanctioned programmes of what is or might be.


      • prism 4.1.1

        Bill Is that a discussion on whether we have either representative or participative democracy? I don’t want everyone in the public who has a kneejerk reaction or deeply dyed prejudice deciding policy but I also don’t want a bunch of jerks who can con with well spoken words from a speech writer along with a smile and a wave making an arse of the country’s laws and values.

        • Bill

          Hi Prism

          To answer your question as to whether I’m conducting, or seeking a discussion on systems of representative versus participatory democratic models. No, not really. There’s plenty of scope on this blog to have that discussion elsewhere.

          I was merely making an observation on our representative model of democracy. Judged by terms of reference signposted by your comment, our system of representative democracy would appear to be deeply flawed and unrepresentative. That’s all.

    • Jim Nald 4.2

      The circumstances have been shifting and changing in the course of the debate. One would not expect any decent parliamentarian to stick stupidly, stubbornly or sloganistically to an untenable or unfair position. One would expect our legislators to do the correct thing for the present and long term interest of the people – on an individual and collective basis.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1

        One would not expect any decent parliamentarian to stick stupidly, stubbornly or sloganistically to an untenable or unfair position.

        But we would definitely expect that from the parliamentarians in National.

  5. you must admit r0b it is pretty ironic – suddenly labour is championing going to courts – no wonder many maori don’t trust them. The gnats are transparent and no one is fooled – they are pushing this because of the confidence and supply agreement with the MP. We know the gnats don’t give a fuck.

    I oppose the repeal because it does not empower maori – why do labour oppose it again – same reason as they put the shit F&S Act in in the first place IMO.

    Maori have become the political football of choice for those who love to put the boot in – sadly the red and the blue merge into a dirty gray for those who feel the tred on the back of the neck.

    • Labour’s FSA allowed Maori to go to Court. Have a look at http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0093/latest/DLM320263.html#DLM320263

      A positive finding then required negotiations between the crown and the affected party.

    • Jum 5.2

      Marty Mars,

      Still the same point applies; Maori should not be treated as if they are something other than people; there are good people and there are bad people. One set of ‘owners’ will protect everyone’s rights to the foreshore and seabed; other generations may not.

      Tariana Turia was looking for an excuse to go on a mission. She found one and it was grossly misrepresented ( see Micky Savage’s post 5.10) by both media and Maori marches/hikois to hype up the public. Clark supported Turia in Parliament and taught her the ropes. Turia makes like the great Matriarch now but she is still the sovereignty activist she always was and will seek to control New Zealand; that is her party’s goal. Let’s not be coy about that. Whatever legislation goes through in New Zealand total control over land and sovereignty is the end goal and will not change. Tariana and her Party believe they are above Aotearoans/New Zealanders.

      PS. I haven’t been able to check out the Moku being prevented by National Council of Women; when I do find out from my friend I will let you know their side of the story; there are always two sides as I’m sure you will remind me!

      • marty mars 5.2.1

        Kia ora Jum

        I don’t see it as above, for me it is about equality and the statistics tell the story – there is no equality at the moment. Plus it is about fairness – eventually people might realise that to take just about everything off an indigenous people is wrong and no matter how long it takes that wrong must be righted. When there is equality then the foundations of this country will be true instead of crooked as they are at the moment. I believe the resistance to fixing this and other issues relates to the priviledge that the power-holders have, and don’t want to lose. We all have to look in the mirror over that one.

        I am sorry for being a bit of a smartarse during our last exchange but I only did it because I care 🙂

  6. deemac 6

    political parties change all the time, otherwise we’d never get anywhere. Few do such complete about-turns as the Nats between opposing the original F&S Act as too soft on Maori and their position now, but apparently that isn’t a flip flop! Presumably because the MSM’s paymasters like the Nats and give them an easy ride.
    By the way, Turia’s comments show she is much more concerned with her ancient feud with the Labour Party than with actually finding a solution that might work for everyone – petty and unworthy of a minister of the Crown, I’d have thought. And I do wonder why no interviewer ever calls her on her “I speak for all Maori” attitude when their support is around 3%…

  7. Bill 7

    Putting aside what seems to be a red herring concerning public access for a moment.

    Anybody care to enlighten me on the respective positions re: the right to commercially exploit mineral or other resources deemed to be in or on the area designated as foreshore and seabed?

    Am I right in saying that Labour invested any rights to exploitation with the crown? Did the Nats shift this to allow for private exploitation? If that’s the case, do Maori elites get ‘an in’ that didn’t previously exist under the Labour legislation?

    What I’m asking is, when it’s ‘done and dusted’, is all this too-ing and fro-ing going to transpire to be nothing much more than the playing out of a three way competition (with shifting alliances) over legislation that will institutionalise market advantage?

  8. RobertM 8

    If you want NZ to be a sophisticated multi cultural nation, I judge Helen Clark got this issue right. Customary rights are an archaic archeological right, dredged up jurists to give another opening to idigenous peoples rights. On the face of it, customary rights are a relatively weak claim in no way the power of the Treaty of Waitangi treated literally. A claim and a right would have to be used and exploited since the start of European settlement to the present day. But the definition of continuous use is open to legal interpretation. Was it not the now chief judge of the Supreme Court, Sian Elias who in an earlier ruling in a lower court held that a claim for customary rights by a tribe in the low populated ‘maori’ area of the Marlborough Sounds had enough weight to be tested legally. If the final court of appeal for NZ was still the Privy Council you could have even less confidence on the jurists there to rule sensibly on these matters given their attitude to NZ and pronounced liberal sentiments on issues of race and pacific islanders. It is the very reason why appeals to the Privy Council were abolished. Because without wanting to appear in any way racist to a British or Australian court it is quite likely that it would be held that the rights of the idigneous are equal or superior to the settlers.
    In summary I think Clark was very wise on this issue – if you want NZ to survive long term. This issue should not be a matter for consideration for any court-in part because of the wedge likely to be driven by the jurists and because customary rights are archaic and aren’t the way these issues should be considered and weighted.

    • insider 8.1

      That’s ignorant and wrong. Customary rights have been around in many mainly commonwealth jurisdictions for a 150 years or so. They are a sign of a very just system and the balances that the law can bring to policy. They are a recognition that a ‘change of ownership’ of a country through colonisation does not extinguish all the previous owners’ rights. Recognition of customary rights is the sign of a very sophisticated system.

      The PC would have been a perfect place to review these issues because they are the result of the common law, judge made law, and not only would the PC judges have fine minds they would have the experience of dealing with or observing similar issues from other jurisdictions. I’d be more nervous leaving it to Elias as I think she is an agenda driven judge and poor choice as head of the SC.

      The saddest part of this issue is the delusion by Maori that this process would lead to a lower level of proof for CT. Not sure who has been the cause of that. Might just be wishful thinking by Harawira and co or a deliberate strategy to try and shift the bar.

    • pollywog 8.2

      Here where i live theres an island owned by a german industrialist, an urupa, a tidal estuary ‘owned’ by Maori, farmland ‘bought’ under dubious circumstances, a fierecly guarded private access beach road, a boat jetty used by anyone and all bordering on each other with no policing as the whole thing is tied up in a no mans land of contentious rights and ownership until the foreshore seabed debacle get settled…

      …meanwhile i’m out there swimming, paddling around and collecting shellfish like it’s christmas

      can’t complain really 🙂

      captcha : locations (locations locations)

      • ak 8.2.1

        And here where I live Poll, there’s a whanau with at least four distinctly discrete and fiercely-maintained cultural backgrounds doing exactly the same thing in a similarly legislative no-man’s-land; united solely – but profoundly – by a common acceptance that some places should never be tamed. Or owned.

        Go, Goffy. Universal, total, circumferential access (yeah, yeah, ports, sanctuaries etc): let us all go to the beach – and let the clowns dispute the circus wherever the frock they will.

  9. Swampy 9

    Reeally? I thought it was in the NZ Herald article which listed the different positions Labour has taken on this matter.

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • NZ announces a third P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    The Government has deployed a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 Orion (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea, announced Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark. “New Zealand has long supported ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Pacific trade and development agreement a reality
    Pacific regional trade and development agreement PACER Plus will enter into force in 60 days now that the required eight countries have ratified it. Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker welcomed the announcement that the Cook Islands is the eighth nation to ratify this landmark agreement. “The agreement represents ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Securing a pipeline of teachers
    The Government is changing its approach to teacher recruitment as COVID-19 travel restrictions continue, by boosting a range of initiatives to get more Kiwis into teaching. “When we came into Government, we were faced with a teacher supply crisis,” Education Minister Chris Hipkins said. “Over the past three years, we ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Border exceptions for a small number of international students with visas
    The Government has established a new category that will allow 250 international PhD and postgraduate students to enter New Zealand and continue their studies, in the latest set of border exceptions. “The health, safety and wellbeing of people in New Zealand remains the Government’s top priority. Tight border restrictions remain ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • First COVID-19 vaccine purchase agreement signed
    The Government has signed an agreement to purchase 1.5 million COVID-19 vaccines – enough for 750,000 people – from Pfizer and BioNTech, subject to the vaccine successfully completing all clinical trials and passing regulatory approvals in New Zealand, say Research, Science and Innovation Minister Megan Woods and Health Minister Chris Hipkins. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • International statement – End-to-end encryption and public safety
    We, the undersigned, support strong encryption, which plays a crucial role in protecting personal data, privacy, intellectual property, trade secrets and cyber security.  It also serves a vital purpose in repressive states to protect journalists, human rights defenders and other vulnerable people, as stated in the 2017 resolution of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Ministry of Defence Biodefence Assessment released
    The Ministry of Defence has today released a Defence Assessment examining Defence’s role across the spectrum of biological hazards and threats facing New Zealand. Biodefence: Preparing for a New Era of Biological Hazards and Threats looks at how the NZDF supports other agencies’ biodefence activities, and considers the context of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Approaches to Economic Challenges: Confronting Planetary Emergencies: OECD 9 October 2020
    New Approaches to Economic Challenges: Confronting Planetary Emergencies: OECD 9 October 2020 Hon David Parker’s response following Thomas Piketty and Esther Duflo. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, wherever in the world you might be. I first acknowledge the excellent thought provoking speeches of Thomas Piketty and Esther ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Kaipara Moana restoration takes next step
    A Memorandum of Understanding has been signed today at Waihāua Marae between the Crown, local iwi and councils to protect, restore and enhance the mauri of Kaipara Moana in Northland. Environment Minister David Parker signed the document on behalf of the Crown along with representatives from Ngā Maunga Whakahī, Ngāti ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New Zealand and Uruguay unite on reducing livestock production emissions
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor and Uruguayan Minister of Livestock, Agriculture and Fisheries Carlos María Uriarte have welcomed the launch of a three-year project that will underpin sustainable livestock production in Uruguay, Argentina, and Costa Rica.  The project called ‘Innovation for pasture management’ is led by Uruguay’s National Institute of Agricultural ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • 3100 jobs created through marae upgrades
    Hundreds of marae throughout the country will be upgraded through investments from the Provincial Growth Fund’s refocused post COVID-19 funding to create jobs and put money into the pockets of local tradespeople and businesses, Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones and Māori Development Minister Nanaia Mahuta have announced. “A total ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Health volunteers recognised in annual awards
    Health Minister Chris Hipkins has announced 9 teams and 14 individuals are the recipients of this year’s Minister of Health Volunteer Awards.  “The health volunteer awards celebrate and recognise the thousands of dedicated health sector volunteers who give many hours of their time to help other New Zealanders,” Mr Hipkins ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Community COVID-19 Fund supports Pacific recovery
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples, Aupito William Sio says a total of 264 groups and individuals have successfully applied for the Pacific Aotearoa Community COVID-19 Recovery Fund, that will support Pacific communities drive their own COVID-19 recovery strategies, initiatives, and actions. “I am keen to see this Fund support Pacific ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Community benefits from Māori apprenticeships
    Up to 50 Māori apprentices in Wellington will receive paid training to build houses for their local communities, thanks to a $2.75 million investment from the Māori Trades and Training Fund, announced Employment Minister Willie Jackson today. “This funding will enable Ngāti Toa Rangatira Incorporated to provide its Ngā Kaimahi ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Training fund supports Māori jobseekers
    Rapidly growing sectors will benefit from a $990,000 Māori Trades and Training Fund investment which will see Wellington jobseekers supported into work, announced Employment Minister Willie Jackson today. “This funding will enable Sapphire Consultants Ltd. to help up to 45 Māori jobseekers into paid training initiatives over two years through ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Ruakura Inland Port development vital infrastructure for Waikato
    The Government is investing $40 million to develop an inland port at Ruakura which will become a freight super-hub and a future business, research and residential development for the Waikato, Urban Development and Transport Minister Phil Twyford, and Māori Development Minister Nanaia Mahuta announced today. The funding has been has ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Appointments made to Defence Expert Review Group
    Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today the establishment of an Expert Review Group to review a number of aspects of the New Zealand Defence Force’s (NZDF) structure, information management and record-keeping processes.  The Expert Review Group’s work arises out of the first recommendation from the Report of the Government’s Inquiry ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • No active community cases of COVID-19
    There are no active community cases of COVID-19 remaining in the country after the last people from the recent outbreak have recovered from the virus, Health Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “This is a big milestone. New Zealanders have once again through their collective actions squashed the virus. The systems ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Clean energy upgrade for more public buildings
    More public buildings will be supported by the Government to upgrade to run on clean energy, the Minister for Climate Change James Shaw announced today. Minister Shaw announced that Lincoln and Auckland universities will receive support through the Clean-Powered Public Service Fund to replace fossil fuel boilers. Southern, Taranaki, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Schools back donations scheme for the second year
    More schools have opted in to the donations scheme for 2021, compared to 2020 when the scheme was introduced. “The families of more than 447,000 students will be better off next year, with 94% of eligible schools and kura opting into the scheme,” Education Minister Chris Hipkins said. “This is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Ruapehu cycle trails gets PGF boost
    The spectacular Mountains to Sea cycle trail in Ruapehu District will receive $4.6 million in funding from the Provincial Growth Fund for two additional trails, Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This is an exciting development for the local community, and one that will provide significant economic opportunities ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Update to air border order strengthens crew requirements
    Additional measures coming into effect on Monday will boost our defence against COVID-19 entering New Zealand through the air border, Health Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “As part of our precautionary approach and strategy of constant review, we’re tightening the requirements around international aircrew,” Chris Hipkins said. The COVID-19 Public ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • A true picture of Māori business activity
    A better picture of the contribution Māori businesses make to the economy will be possible with changes to the way information is collected about companies and trading enterprises. Māori Development Minister Nanaia Mahuta and Small Business Minister Stuart Nash have announced a new option for Māori enterprises who are part ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • PGF funding for Taranaki projects
    The South Taranaki museum, a New Plymouth distillery and a Pasifika building firm will benefit from a Government investment totalling more than $1 million, Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones says. The $1.05m in grants and loans from the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) will help the recipients expand and create ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Fijian Language Week 2020 inspires courage and strength during COVID-19 pandemic
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples, Aupito William Sio says the theme for the 2020 Fijian Language Week reflects the strong belief by Fijians that their language and culture inspires courage and strength that is strongly needed in times of emergencies, or through a significant challenge like the global COVID-19 pandemic ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • Trades training builds on iwi aspirations
    An investment of $2.025 million from the Māori Trades and Training Fund will support Māori to learn new skills while making a positive difference for their communities, announced Employment Minister Willie Jackson today. “K3 Development Limited Partnership will receive $2,025,000 for its Takitimu Tuanui apprenticeship programme, which will support the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago