Flynn cuts a deal while Trump scrambles

Written By: - Date published: 8:07 am, December 4th, 2017 - 147 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, corruption, Deep stuff, democracy under attack, Donald Trump, spin, us politics, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

Over in the US of A there have been further developments in the continuing saga about whether or not Russia tilted the election in Trump’s favour. And more importantly in legal terms did Trump and his team acquiesce in what happened.

Flynn is the second guilty plea in the Mueller investigation. The first, George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty to lying to FBI agents in what was clearly a deal.

Two others, Paul Manafort and Rick Gates, have been charged with and pleaded not guilty to charges including conspiracy against the United States, conspiracy to launder money, acting as unregistered agents of Ukraine’s government, false and misleading statements and failure to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts. These do not necessarily relate directly to Manafort’s involvement in Trump’s campaign manager.

Flynn, the guy who used to chant “Lock her up” at Trump rallies, has done the same.  To understand the full irony of this watch he following video.

From the Guardian:

When the crowd chanted “Lock her up!” about Hillary Clinton, Michael Flynn smiled. “You’re damn right,” he told last year’s Republican national convention. “You’re exactly right. There’s nothing wrong with that! And you know why we’re saying that? We’re saying that because if I – a guy who knows this business – if I did a tenth of what she did, I would be in jail today.”

On Friday Flynn’s bravado and righteousness had been stripped away. A humbled Flynn buttoned his jacket as he walked into the US district court in Washington, to be greeted by the austere trappings of a federal courthouse with its solemn lawyers, stiff-backed marshals and hungry reporters.

Flynn, the man once led crowds in calling for Clinton to be put behind bars, found himself standing before a judge, pleading guilty to making false statements to the FBI, and facing a possible prison term. Not for the first time in Donald Trump’s presidency, it was the kind of plot twist that most thriller writers would avoid as just too improbable.

Clinton herself maintained a diplomatic silence, but for her supporters, a sense of schadenfreude may be irresistible.

But it appears that Flynn has cut a very generous deal.  Which strongly suggests Mueller is targeting people higher up the chain.  From Abigail Tracey at Vanity Fair:

The fact that Flynn was not charged with any other crimes, as well as the fact that Mueller did not convene a grand jury to secure an indictment, immediately fueled speculation that Trump’s former top adviser is cooperating with the government. For months, a steady drip of news reports have suggested a web of clandestine lobbying efforts by Flynn and his son Michael G. Flynn on behalf of foreign governments including Turkey. Mueller’s apparent hesitance in charging Flynn, despite reports that he already had enough evidence to arrest the pair, was widely interpreted to mean that Flynn’s lawyers were working on a deal. Several days ago, Trump’s lawyers confirmed that the former adviser’s attorney stopped sharing pertinent information tied to the probe with the White House legal team—a move that seemed to confirm that Flynn had, in fact, flipped.

“On its face, it is a really, really good deal for him,” Sol Wisenberg, a white-collar criminal defense attorney who worked on the Whitewater investigation, told me—assuming that Flynn doesn’t face any additional charges and that immunity for his son is part of the agreement. “He is obviously cooperating. There is no way he is not cooperating, there is just no way,” Wisenberg told me. “If he wasn’t cooperating he would be indicted and I guarantee you there would be more counts than this.”

That conclusion was confirmed later Friday morning by ABC News, which reported that Flynn, facing mounting legal costs and feeling “abandoned” by Trump, had made the decision to cooperate with Mueller. Sources told the outlet that after Flynn was confronted with the full array of potential charges against him, he agreed to testify about President Donald Trump, as well as members of Trump’s family and others in the White House. “He is prepared to testify that president Trump, as a candidate, ordered him and directed him to make contact with the Russians,” ABC’s Brian Ross said on air.

This was not the actions of a renegade individual.  Flynn was in close touch with senior members of the Trump transition team both before and after he spoke with the Russian ambassador, Sergey I. Kislyak, about American sanctions against Russia immediately after the election.

And the Trump White House response is getting really weird.  Trump has tweeted that Flynn’s lies are why he was fired as National Security Advisor.  This raises many questions about Trump’s pressuring of former FBI Director James Comey to drop the investigation into Flynn’s actions.

In a really weird twist Trump’s lawyer John Doud has taken responsibility for the tweet. And I thought his tweets were just the random rantings of a mad man.

Of course the charges so far do not judicially prove collusion with Russia during the last election campaign.  But further charges concerning the Russian connection must be close.

Is this how it ends?

Update: As Macro points out Ben Ross has since clarified that his source said that the direction from Trump to Flynn to contact the Russians came during the Presidential Transition and not the election. This may help Trump if it is correct but there is still strong evidence of conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

147 comments on “Flynn cuts a deal while Trump scrambles”

  1. National are learning from what is going on in US?

    Could be that our “National Party dirty tricks campaign” is now ‘evolving’ into a “Trump war style agenda” here with Simon Bridges at the helm?

    Today’s ‘negative’ tirade from Bridges is, “There are signs of a fracturing among the labour coalition over the ‘work for pay’ regional Shane Jones economic plans”

    • esoteric pineapples 1.1

      National is definitely going down the same path as the Republicans which doesn’t say much for them.

  2. Ad 2

    I want to see President Trump set on fire by trial-by-media, taking down his entire filthy horde in a long slow fall from the sky as a blazing fire of shit, with him continuing to flap his burning wings to fruitlessly gain height and instead just flinging burning clumps onto all his supporters, so that everyone standing on the ground who launched him up there is saturated in a sea of burning fecal chaos.

    • North 2.1

      My!……Ad @ 2……withering!

      The putrid swamp which is Trump’s White House vindicates the bottom line moral instruction given me repeatedly since I was a 5 year old by my dear parents (who’d be 100 and 95 were they alive)……”Never trust a loud mouth bully!”

      However one feels about the US and its many, many historical outrages (visits to the war museums in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City are testament to some of those)……thank goodness, particularly given Trump, for its constitutional checks and balances.

      The terrible fear is that those checks and balances may not ultimately be enough to avoid the world burning……at the hands of a loud mouth bully.

  3. tracey 3

    The thing is these guys all show that they lie effortlessly and their loyalty has a price.

    It seems they will say and do anything for 3 things;

    Power
    Money
    To save their own skins

    None of them can be trusted. That includes when they swear on a bible in a court.

  4. Ad 4

    “The country has changed in the past year, and many of us have grown numb after unrelenting shocks. What now passes for ordinary would have once been inconceivable.

    The government is under the control of an erratic racist who engages in nuclear brinkmanship on Twitter. …

    He publicly pressures the Justice Department to investigate his political opponents. He’s called for reporters to be jailed, and his administration demanded that a sportscaster who criticized him be fired.

    Official government statements promote his hotels. You can’t protest it all; you’d never do anything else.

    After the election, many liberals pledged not to “normalize” Trump. But one lesson of this year is that we don’t get to decide what normal looks like. ”

    – Michelle Goldberg, New York Times

  5. Macro 5

    Mickey – you will need to update this post because the last section is now in error.
    From the bbc:

    What did the original report say?
    Brian Ross’s special report was aired after Mr Flynn’s plea deal was announced on Friday.
    Quoting a single anonymous source, it said he was prepared to testify that Mr Trump had directed him to make contact with Russian officials when he was still a candidate for the presidency.
    If found true, the claim would have conflicted with the president’s comments at the time of Mr Flynn’s sacking earlier this year. In February, he told reporters: “No, I didn’t direct him, but I would have directed him if he didn’t do it, okay?”
    Off the back of the report, Wall Street’s main indexes fell by more than one percent.
    Why was a correction issued?

    In a later edition of ABC’s World News Tonight, Mr Ross clarified that his source had in fact said that Donald Trump’s orders came during the presidential transition, after the election had taken place.
    “It was shortly after the election that President-elect Trump directed Flynn to contact Russian officials on topics that included working jointly against ISIS (so-called Islamic State),” he said.
    But the news network was criticised for simply clarifying the error and was later forced to issue a full correction.
    President Trump was quick to praise the move, and suggested the report was part of a “fake news” agenda set against him.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42214214

    [Thanks I have edited although time will tell if Trump directed his minions to talk to the Russians during the campaign – MS]

  6. Macro 6

    Meanwhile it has been reported: Trump to start WW3 as distraction from links with Russia
    😆😈😸

  7. Andy 7

    GDP up, unemployment down, illegal immigration down and out of the useless Paris Climate Accord

    Furthermore, he hasn’t started a new war yet,

    There are those that don’t suffer from TDS who can see the facts through the fog of propaganda from the loathsome swamp dwellers like Clinton

    By the way, why wasn’t there street protests in NZ on our taxpayer money going to the Clinton Foundation? You know, the same guys who rip of Haitiian earthquake victims for personal profit and cut Uranium deals with the Russians?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1

      Where oh where were they? Able to read, perhaps? Not having their brain replaced with an grossly distended amygdala?

      I bet they were also not stupid enough to deny science.

      Now, please don’t make the dull-witted assumption that I’m trying to change “your” “mind”. For one thing, I’d first have to evict the people who rent space there.

      • Andy 7.1.1

        What has “denying science” got to do with anything? The Paris Climate Accord was going to cost trillions of dollars to reduce planetary temperatures by 0.017 Deg C in 100 years

        • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.1.1

          It’s a Chinese hoax, remember? I realise it must be difficult to keep all these conflicting stories straight when all you have is an amygdala, but still.

          • Andy 7.1.1.1.1

            A Chinese hoax? That was obviously a smokescreen to distract from his Russian puppetmasters, especially now that the Chinese are embracing the new POTUS with nicknames such as Emperor Trump and Uncle Trump

            It’s amazing what a few insults will buy you these days in international diplomacy

    • Macro 7.2

      Furthermore, he hasn’t started a new war yet

      He’s working on it.
      I see that the Paris Climate Accord is so useless that now only the US is not a partner to it. How wonderful that the Chump has seen the light! And for your information unemployment in the US:

      US unemployment rate rose to 4.4 percent in June 2017 from the previous month’s 16-year low of 4.3 percent and above market expectations of 4.3 percent. The number of unemployed persons was little changed at 7.0 million while the labor force participation rate edged up to 62.8 percent.Nov 3, 2017

      That labor force participation rate includes those working 1 hour a week – of which there are many.
      Illegal immigration down – who the fuck would want to go there anyway?
      GDP up…
      You know that GDP includes the number of persons kept in prisons, the number of accidents, and the expense spent of climatic disasters such as Harvey, Irma, and Western states forest fires? GDP is hardly a measure of a countries Wellbeing – and its creator said as much.

      Simon Kuznets, the economist who developed the first comprehensive set of measures of national income, stated in his first report to the US Congress in 1934, in a section titled “Uses and Abuses of National Income Measurements”:[8]

      The valuable capacity of the human mind to simplify a complex situation in a compact characterization becomes dangerous when not controlled in terms of definitely stated criteria. With quantitative measurements especially, the definiteness of the result suggests, often misleadingly, a precision and simplicity in the outlines of the object measured. Measurements of national income are subject to this type of illusion and resulting abuse, especially since they deal with matters that are the center of conflict of opposing social groups where the effectiveness of an argument is often contingent upon oversimplification. […]

      All these qualifications upon estimates of national income as an index of productivity are just as important when income measurements are interpreted from the point of view of economic welfare. But in the latter case additional difficulties will be suggested to anyone who wants to penetrate below the surface of total figures and market values. Economic welfare cannot be adequately measured unless the personal distribution of income is known. And no income measurement undertakes to estimate the reverse side of income, that is, the intensity and unpleasantness of effort going into the earning of income. The welfare of a nation can, therefore, scarcely be inferred from a measurement of national income as defined above.

      In 1962, Kuznets stated:[27]

      Distinctions must be kept in mind between quantity and quality of growth, between costs and returns, and between the short and long run. Goals for more growth should specify more growth of what and for what.

      my bold

    • Andy; – And you also meaned to add that GOP allowed Trump to put the knife to kill TPPA too??

      So sad!!! (sarc)

    • North 7.4

      ‘Whataboutism’ is entirely redundant at this point Andy……’what about?’ is a stunningly unsatisfactory and I suggest Kool Aid response to the clear and present dangers of an unprecedentedly unhinged White House incumbent.

      • Andy 7.4.1

        It isn’t “whateaboutism” when it is the Clinton camp and followers that are trying to push the Russia narrative.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 7.4.1.1

          General Flynn is a Clinton follower. All hail amygdala.

          • McFlock 7.4.1.1.1

            nononono Meuller is a clinton stoog and flynn is lying to preserve his own skin from the completely fictitious witch-hunt…

            • One Anonymous Bloke 7.4.1.1.1.1

              I heard that Clinton hired Fancy Bear to hack incriminating emails onto the Trump campaign servers, but she had to go to Buzz Aldrin to implant all the false memories of authoring them.

              • Macro

                Don’t forget all those bots she created on Facebook and Twitter as well and the ads she paid for paid for in roubles. Cunning that – to get all that money from Russia and keep it to buy all that influence for her rival – then blame it on the poor Russians

    • mickysavage 7.5

      “Furthermore, he hasn’t started a new war yet”

      You have such high standards …

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.6

      Not liking Trump, is not the same thing as liking Hilary Clinton….

  8. esoteric pineapples 8

    From the commentators I have been following, Mueller may not be even aiming to prove that Trump was colluding with Russia but simply that he attempted to obstruct justice.

  9. JohnSelway 9

    If you watch Fox News you’d be under the impression that HRC was president with all their deflections.

  10. adam 10

    When the new tax cuts will hurt the bottom 50% of americans by ripping away medical care, and forcing down wages. It’s hard to worry about a few votes here or there to Russian propaganda. The democrats failed again to stop the GOP, they just rolled over – proving once again they are corporate tools.

    • Macro 10.1

      Prey tell adam how it was that the Democrats with 48 Senators could have stopped a vote which required only 50 of the 52 Repugnants votes to win? Up until the last it looked likely that the Bill would not get the numbers, and required massive hand written amendments to pork barrel the reluctant few who were holding out. Now I know that the Democrats are not far enough to the left for many here – but really it is very unfair to cast them in anyway as complicit in this travesty.

      • adam 10.1.1

        Be an effective opposition. Rather than let them force through a bill – fight. They have many options to slow down a bill, but they chose none.

        So the democrats suck. It nothing about left wing enough (which is a disengiouse argument if there ever was on), they not even left at all. And they are on the whole corporate lap dogs.

        They know the GOP has slowed legislation for years in opposition. Why did they aquacess.

        As for the election, they lost – get a grip. It’s what you actually do when in opposition that counts. And being wimps and cowards is not good enough for 50% of Americans who will suffer for their lack of spin.

        • Macro 10.1.1.1

          Rather than let them force through a bill – fight. They have many options to slow down a bill, but they chose none.

          adam – the Democrats had none.
          If you know of any – other than taking out one or two republican senators please let us know.

          • adam 10.1.1.1.1

            Oh so the GPO can delay Obama care for years, and the democrats can’t stall a bill for one night.

            One night is all they had to do to as you say – start working on one or two republicans – you know, effective opposition.

            • Macro 10.1.1.1.1.1

              The Affordable Care Act was preserved – not by the Democrats but by two Republicans who crossed the floor to vote with the Democrats.
              Even in this Tax reform their was one Republican who had the balls to vote against it – the other couple of Republicans who were swaying against it, conceded to being Pork Barrelled into voting for it. No Democrat voted for this Bill and indeed no one in the senate actually knows just what it contains because large parts of it were handwritten on the fly.
              Notably this Legislation will in effect end Obama care for around 13 million americans and raise insurance premiums as it allows “healthy” americans to stop taking Insurance.

              • adam

                Now you’re arguing my point.

                They let this bill pass in such a shoddy manner without a fight. So what they voted against it, we both know that was not enough. They had to do mor, but chose not to.

                If you can’t see my point fair enough – but please stop defending the corporate lapdogs. They were spineless, and gave up when on this issue they should not have. If you can live with that lack of mana – well your choice.

                • Macro

                  Quite frankly adam after reading your comment twice I’m not sure what you are arguing there.
                  I’m not defending corporate lapdogs I’m trying to explain to you that your comment above and continued comments are completely unfair, and devoid of reality. The reality is that the democrats (for a variety of reasons) do not control the House, or the Senate. The last Parliament here in NZ National had a majority of 1 – with that they were able to enact a good many pieces of legislation which the opposition vigorously opposed. It’s much the same in the Senate. Democrats can rail against this as much as they like but it will not make a blind bit of difference. But bear this in mind Democrats stand united against this Bill.
                  https://www.abqjournal.com/1101431/senate-democrats-stand-united-against-gop-tax-bill.html

                  • adam

                    They only had to hold out one night. Then they had the whole weekend to get some GOP member to not vote with it. But as McFlock says, in a democracy no point trying to defended the rights of the people when you don’t have the votes – much simpler to do what all the so called left parties have been doing since 2007 and go with their masters.

            • McFlock 10.1.1.1.1.2

              Actually, Obamacare was signed into law barely a year after Obama was sworn in. Not bad for a massive overhaul of the health system.

        • Macro 10.1.1.2

          I’m also well aware that the democrats lost – I have no great sympathy for the general democrat policy machine, and yes I would have much preferred Bernie to have been the Democrat candidate, but he wasn’t – get over it.
          Just as National had the largest percentage of votes, but failed to win the election so it was with Hillary. Now she only lost out the electoral college vote by a few thousand votes in a few crucial states – interestingly it was in those states that social media meddling was the most active.
          To deny that there was meddling in the US elections is to deny reality, and Putin whether acting in collusion with Trump or not, has not been idle is this monkey business as there is evidence of Russian interference via social media in both the Brexit referendum and the recent German elections. And why not? To bring instability and dissent to the West is good policy for Russia. Putin is playing the long game here – divide and rule.

          • joe90 10.1.1.2.1

            Putin is playing the long game here – divide and rule

            .

            Digital forever wars.

            Permanent globalized digital warfare might become the new cost of living in a connected world.

            https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/02/fake-news-botnets-how-russia-weaponised-the-web-cyber-attack-estonia?

          • adam 10.1.1.2.2

            Get over it, the democrats lost!

            Stop with all the lies and half truths about winning by numbers, but losing the colleges. That serves no one and it’s getting tired. The democrats went into the election know what they had to win the colleges.

            And like the whole Russian thing, it’s just another distraction from a corporate lapdog democratic party. As they are such a lackluster opposition letting tax bill slide by them.

            So what about the corporations, are you jumping up and down about them influencing the election? I think they had a bit more impact than the Russians.

            • Macro 10.1.1.2.2.1

              Ok – you keep your blinkers on adam. But the West is now waking up to just what is going on here – and has been for some time if you care to follow the link joe provided above.
              Remember that for many people now they get their news not via the MSM but by Social Media and it is just to easy to spread rumours – and at very little cost.

              • adam

                Blame the other, any other as long as you don’t have to look at the underlying corruption in the west. As long as we give a free pass to the rich and the corporations – you’re happy with that.

                What a sad little world you live in, Russia’s in every corner trying to make to make everyone capitalists. So what they influencing elections they do it here. China does it here, and India also to a greater or lesser extent. The NRA funded lobbying groups the last election. That the nature of a liberal democracy – if you don’t think other countries are trying to influence your election your head is in the sand, or you’re smoking crack.

                But the reality is, that is a side show, the real stuff is the tax bill – which hurts people. BUt sure keep making a drama about somthing which has been happening ever since elections started. The only difference is now they have a shiny new toy called the internet and social media.

          • spikeyboy 10.1.1.2.3

            “To deny that there was meddling in the US elections is to deny reality, and Putin whether acting in collusion with Trump or not, has not been idle is this monkey business as there is evidence of Russian interference via social media in both the Brexit referendum and the recent German elections. ”

            I would call this pure fantasy and wishful thinking. The USA and the systems that run the country produced Trump. He is not some unexplainable aberation that can only be explained by must be Russia’s fault. He is the warm throbbing heart of the USA that has always been driving its genocidal attack on indigenous people. He is rampant cancerous capitalism with gloves and masks off. No more Obama niceties while the bombs fly now.
            Trump never colluded with Russia. He may be impeached but it wont be over that. There is no wvidence as your lack of citations show

    • McFlock 10.2

      That’s some mighty nice revisionism, there.

      The dems lost, so it must be their fault, let’s not ask why, eh? Heck, if people start to blame the russians, they might start also blaming the sanders “supporters” who practically campaigned for the republicans after he legitimately lost the primaries.

      • Bill 10.2.1

        Isn’t it just common sense to suggest that who-ever or what-ever lost in a competition wasn’t “up to the mark”?

        And doesn’t suggesting otherwise actually just avoid examining the reasons why they weren’t “up to the mark”?

        I’m not sure if you’re being serious when you write “sanders “supporters” who practically campaigned for the republicans after he legitimately lost the primaries (I suspect you are)

        The Democratic Party in the US is crap. It’s so crap that many people preferred to take a punt than endure another Democratic Presidency. C’est tout.

        • Macro 10.2.1.1

          yes Bill. But to blame the Demos for the Trump Bigly Big wonderful Xmas Present to Corporates, the wealthy few, and not forgetting HIMSELF, is just plain bollocks.

          • Bill 10.2.1.1.1

            I’m not sure that Adam wasn’t referring to the election (the consequence being tax cuts, medi-care etc). And how we’re meant to get all frothy about supposed Russian interference in that result instead of focusing on some pretty obvious shortcomings of the Democratic Party.

            It seems that’s definitely what McFlock was referring to in response.

            Losing votes when you haven’t the numbers is kinda predictable (unless that filibuster shit or whatever can kick in). Anyway…

            • Macro 10.2.1.1.1.1

              adam said

              The democrats failed again to stop the GOP, they just rolled over – proving once again they are corporate tools.

              I think that clearly refers to the passage of the Senate Bill on Tax “Reform”.
              It is clearly an unfair criticism because if you were to read any of the reportage on this, the Democrats fought as hard as they could to stop it. So much so that the Repugnants were forced to introduce a procedural measure that gave them the power to pass the Act with only 50 votes and to prevent filibustering.

              That’s because GOP leaders plan to take advantage of special Senate budget rules that allow some tax and spending legislation to pass with 51 votes instead of the 60 votes needed for most other legislation. That would allow Republicans, who control 52 votes in the Senate, to pass the legislation without the help of a single Democrat.

              https://www.npr.org/2017/11/09/562941660/republicans-move-on-tax-overhaul-in-house-and-senate
              They actually only needed 50 votes and could rely on the casting vote of VP Pence to pass the Bill.
              They only passed those rules above a few days earlier.

              • McFlock

                Oh, okay, that makes slightly more sense. I took the votes reference to mean the entire paragraph was about the election, but basically you got the impression he was saying “the dems rolled over on the tax cuts, let’s stop wasting time on the election”?

                Which is also bunk, but at least makes slightly more sense.

              • Bill

                Looks like a jamboree from where I’m sitting.

                So now both the Senate and the Congress must agree on a compromise package that will then need to pass a further vote in both the Senate and the Congress. And for that 51 vote “special Senate budget rule” to apply (if it still can at that point), the deficit limits it relies on will have to be satisfied.

                Fuck, we don’t half govern ourselves by stupid means.

                • Macro

                  The two bills go to a committee who then “massage” it into one – but it doesn’t go back to the senate or the house as I understand it – it goes up to Trump to sign it into legislation.
                  And yeah what a way to govern.

                  • Bill

                    The link you provided says it goes back through the Senate and the House. (3rd to last para)

                    • Macro

                      ok! The “conference committee” as they call it must make sure that when they meld the two bills together they don’t run up a deficit through tax cuts of more that 1.5 Trillion. If they did they would have to go back to Congress.
                      But as Politico points out they are going to have their work cut out.

                      The House, for example, wants to slash the mortgage interest deduction in half, and eliminate it entirely for second homes. The Senate would only end it for home equity loans.

                      In a surprise move, Senate Republicans decided at the last-minute to abandon plans to repeal the AMT — a key part of GOP promises to radically simplify the code — and that’s sure to be unpopular with House Republicans.

                      The House wants to cut some $65 billion out of education-related tax breaks, which the Senate leaves them mostly untouched. The Senate wants to double one break, for teachers’ expenses, that the House would kill altogether. Senate Republicans have seven individual income tax brackets in their plan; the House has four. House Republicans want to end the estate tax while the Senate would only temporarily ease it.

                      While Republicans largely support repealing the Affordable Care Act’s mandate to have health insurance — included in the Senate draft — some in the House want to use the $318 billion that’s projected to raise to finance other changes in the health law.

                      https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/02/tax-reform-whats-next-201078
                      If they can get it all together and stay within the deficit guidelines they have already voted upon then I gather (as this link suggests) it then goes straight to Trump

                    • Bill

                      Still not getting that (the sign-off)

                      From the politico link…

                      “Congress is under pressure to act quickly, with Republican leaders racing to complete action before the winner of Alabama’s special Senate election can be seated later this month. Lawmakers fear that both Republican Roy Moore and Democrat Doug Jones will oppose their plans.”

                      That suggests it goes back through the Senate, no?

              • adam

                The democrats saw this coming, they could have fought it all the way. And yet….

                It’s quite hard arguing with an apologist, as they will always come up with some excuse.

                • McFlock

                  like “not enough representatives to vote against it”.

                  • adam

                    “Effective opposition” is that in your vocab McFlock?

                    • McFlock

                      while you’re giving me vocab tips, look up “mathematics”.

                      So this obamacare thing that took “years” to pass – what stage was it at in december ’09? Just so the dems can benchmark themselves against the republican opposition, rather than some internet genius.

        • McFlock 10.2.1.2

          After an election, there’s always navel-gazing by the winners and especially the losers. Maybe they were “up to the mark”, maybe they weren’t, and maybe that’s why they lost.

          What the dems didn’t do was “roll over”, which was adam’s phrasing. And minimising advertising which reached millions of people as “a few votes here or there” solidly counts as revisionism, in my opinion.

          • Bill 10.2.1.2.1

            The advertising you’re referring to is whatever stuff on whatever platform that was allegedly funded from Russian government sources? And that (whatever it amounted to in terms of penetration, and assuming it was funded by the Russian government) was so sophisticated or “on point” or whatever, that it undermined all the Republican and Democratic Party advertising that washed out through, and was endlessly reinforced by, multiple ideologically captured mediums? Really!? That what you’re suggesting?

            And are you further suggesting focusing on what big business wants or will accept, as opposed to what people want, isn’t “rolling over”?

            • McFlock 10.2.1.2.1.1

              Actually, what I’m suggesting is that divising advertising that reinforced the divisions within the country and reached one or two hundred million people could conceivably have had a significant effect on an election that was actually pretty close (between entrenching people to ignore the pussy-grabbing tape on one side, and vehemently protesting the dem nominee even though their preferred candidate asked them not to).

              • Bill

                I’m picking there are numerous and sometimes quite deep fissures run through public opinion in the US (just like elsewhere).

                I’m also picking that domestic media exploit many of those fissures for viewing numbers and the accompanying advertising revenue…routinely.

                You really think the election hinged on some pussy grabbing tape and Sanders supporters being vocally “less than enamored” with Hillary Clinton as nominee?

                Nothing to do then, with decades of decline in living standards and expectations, eventually resulting in people “long fingering” the whole caboodle, perhaps in the vain hope that a change would lead to something better, or failing that, that at least change would be change? That last being a low bar that might just signal peoples’ level of desperation and despair.

                I mean, how bad does shit have to be before you jettison the promise of stable and steady in favour of junk on the off-chance? Because that’s about where the US got to.

                • McFlock

                  Again, in a close election most factors could have swung the election. One of those factors could be the alienation you mentioned (although anyone who voted for trump as a finger to the system deserves the system trump will leave them with). Clinton could have campaigned differently. Similarly, who knows what would have happened if she’d told him to “grow up” during the debate. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

                  But that list of maybes does include “maybe if there hadn’t been so many ads and tweets reinforcing division and alienation, the result would have been different”.

                  • Bill

                    57% of states to 43% of states on a turn-out of 55.7% suggests, not closeness, but widespread disenchantment.

                    Is your last para a reference to negative campaigning (which seems to be the norm in US elections), or again, some wavy armed implication aimed at the Russian government?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The way I read it, it’s both. You can’t “reinforce” something that isn’t there in the first place.

                    • McFlock

                      The first two show the vagaries of the electoral college system vs the popular vote, while the last is hardly out of kilter with the US elections in living memory. And Clinton lost by losing three winner-takes-all states by less than 1% each. Less than 100,000 votes difference in 135,000,000.

                      Maybe if she’d done something slightly different in those states. Maybe.

                      as for last para: OAB got it, it’s both. The russians were a third guy in a barfight, suckerpunching each protagonist and blaming the other guy. And then steals their beer when they’re distracted.

                    • Bill

                      So up against an obnoxious idiot, a clown, whatever – the Democrats nominee may have been able to pull something out of the bag, but “Russia!”.

                      I guess US propagandists are over there right now learning how it’s done – all those millions upon millions of dollars and more platforms and outlets than anyone could shake a stick at operating in a broader environment that’s essentially hermetically sealed as far as political ideology goes. And yet… 🙄

                    • The way I read it, it’s both. You can’t “reinforce” something that isn’t there in the first place.

                      Same here. Advertising isn’t about creating something that wasn’t there to start with, it’s about playing on already-existing emotions.

                      The argument that the Russian government couldn’t decide the US election with a bunch of false advertising is beside the point – advertising may not win an election but it sure can influence the outcome, and that’s all people are claiming here.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      …advertising may not win an election but it sure can influence the outcome, and that’s all people are claiming here.

                      I’d like to see the clear influence of the Republican Party on our politics (eg: Charter schools) gone by lunchtime. Can’t see why anyone should be sanguine about Russia trying the same shit, whether or not it worked.

                      Curiously, I can hold this opinion and notice Hilary Clinton’s shortcomings at the same time.

                    • McFlock

                      So up against an obnoxious idiot, a clown, whatever – the Democrats nominee may have been able to pull something out of the bag, but “Russia!”.

                      🙄

                      A badly-run campaign is an accepted part of politics. You try to avoid it, but sometimes people fuck up, make the wrong call, are unlucky.

                      A joke candidate in previous elections suddenly connecting with a core group of voters in a way that conventional political analysts can’t fathom, that is also an accepted part of politics.

                      Missing out on an election by a few votes, that too is an accepted part of politics.

                      Being plain outmanoeuvered on the campaign trail by a better and more able opponent is an acceptable part of politics.

                      These are all legitimate ways to win or lose an election.

                      A foreign nation covertly purchasing advertising of usually false claims to deepen wedge divisions within the electorate? Show me any nation on earth that would call that an accepted part of electing their leaders.,

                    • Bill

                      Purchasing advertising.

                      Must have a bought a fair chunk and it must have spread far and wide and there must therefore be many, many examples of these fake adverts.

                      I haven’t seen any? You? Any links to any or any articles holding examples of them (y’know screenshots)? There must be thousands of them!

                    • McFlock

                      Let’s say I do a couple of minutes googling, find a few news reports with examples, maybe even an archinve of exhibits to the US House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. Let’s say I do that pretty basic search and give you some ads that you haz never ever seen before.

                      How will that move the discussion forward?

                    • McFlock

                      wapo.

                      The verge.

                      But if you want metadata too, the hpsci website has some

                    • Bill

                      The Jesus one was particularly funny I thought.

                      Anyway. That’s the proof for the Russian government meddling in the US elections? Seriously!?

                      Question. I want to buy a $2 ad on facebook. But I’m a wee bit wary about it coming back to me because the content is ‘contentious’.

                      How difficult is it for me to create the ad via proxy servers or whatever else may misdirect people as to my location?

                      Next point. “Sponsored” fb posts. Most people skip them by, right? Looking at the hits/shares on those provided on the basis that the US has a population of 200 000 000 people….yeah. Nah.

                      Want to throw in that the ads were apparently targeted at demographics already aligned with ideas the ads were promulgating and talk about “influence”?

                      And we’re to believe that some fb ads undermined or diluted the combined propaganda impact of CNN and every other major TV news outlet: every newspaper outlet: every internet outlet and every other source of fb ads or other electronic ads in the US?

                      Even if those ads were bought and paid for by the Russian government and the Russian government was too stupid to veil its location and what not…it all amounts to jack-shit in the scheme of things.

                      Also. As acknowledged, there are fissures in US society. Is the argument (or a part of the argument) that those fissures should not be acknowledged; that no-one should say anything about Islamophobia or racism and even, that no-one should lampoon a politician?

                      If so, then maybe the internet should be policed more strictly, aye? Oh wait…that’s precisely what lobbyists are arguing for. So the facebook corporation gets to decide what people see and the facebook corporation gets to censor political and social stuff in various ways. Yeah, that ends well. That ends really well.

                    • McFlock

                      So, basically, you have a problem conceptualising scale.

                      Yeah, sure, you can drop a few bucks on an ad on facebook, route it through a vpn, etc. And you’d barely be a drop in the bucket of election advertising.

                      3,000 ads for FB alone is significant cash and creative workload. VPN costs would be commercial. Plus taking the exchange rate hit on insisting on paying by ruble. And 3,000 ads by tens of thousands of shares on average (quarter mill here, 2,000 there) ends up being a solid proportion of the electorate.

                      So there is a consistently funded and organised source, delivering conflicting social media activity on a large scale. Because the ads conflict, the objective is not to overtly back a particular candidate, but to deepen the wedges within electorate. Who profits?

                      Sure, it might be a conspiracy to disrupt the elections and blame Russia. For whose advantage? As Freud probably didn’t actually say, “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar”.

                    • Bill

                      $6000 for 3000 ads is not significant cash.

                      I can think of any number of tin-pot US orgs that could raise that without breaking a sweat..and so many tin pot orgs that if half of them went to their little sisters piggy bank, then the 3000 ads would appear quicker than a snot nosed kid can say “It wasn’t me!”

                      And like I said before, i seems anyone can easily route their activities through China, or Russia or wherever so that those places appear to be the source.

                      And for a momentary blip on someones screen.

                      And what’s with the clutchy pearl bullshit about exploiting divisions in society? Liberal media does that day in and day out, year on year.

                      Spin a line around it and you can get censorship riding in on a big white horse mind. And who benefits?

                    • McFlock

                      $6,000 for twenty-five ads is significant. $100,000 for ad placement on a single medium, let alone content production and associated costs, is pretty significant for a single provider. It’s all well and good to say people can route anything through russia, but consistent routing suggests consistent source.

                      And when I talk about deepening divisions, I simply mean it from a marketing point of view. Someone using consistent payment and internet habits wanted to polarise the election as much as possible. Whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing depends on their objectives.

                      And enough with the censorship bleating. Knowing the source of an election ad is democracy 101, and several democracies regulate that. Especially if the source is a foreign nation: most countries have an issue with that.

                    • Bill

                      The censorship being lobbied for has nothing whatsoever to do with campaign ads or ad sources.

                      The ammunition (justification) for rolling out censorship across platforms is though, this bullshit about the Russian government’s supposedly nefarious interference in US (and other) elections and referenda via a troll ‘army’ that liberal media have reported as numbering 400…and working in shifts.

                    • McFlock

                      If it’s got nothing to do with campaign ads, why are we talking about campaign ads?

                    • Bill

                      Well McFlock, if you simply read my previous comment you’d understand the (bloody obvious) connection between jumping up and down about the supposed source of ads and calls for censorship.

                    • McFlock

                      But what if the “supposed” source is the actual source?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      @Bill Did you agree with the Electoral Finance Act? Or the concerns that led to its enactment?

                    • Bill

                      That’s a red herring there OAB. (McFlock is talking at best of about $100 000 stacked up against hundreds of millions of dollars…seeking to buy influence)

                      But these ads, as pointed out time and again, tended to revolve around social issues and not party politics per se.

                      If they all come from a singular source, and given that what’s been presented back to us as being “Kremlin” covers just about every angle of any given matter, then the question “What was the point?” kinda needs to be asked.

                      Exacerbating divisions in the US and Spain and the UK because…why again? I mean, I can see why liberal media does it – readership and advertising revenue.

                      But I can’t see how it can be argued (not sensibly anyway) that some pot shots across facebook somehow outweigh everything that’s getting peddled all of the time, and that that somehow advantages Russia in some way. (How so? Destabalisation?)

                      Truth of the matter (my small ‘t’ truth) is that the liberal centre is crumbling, can’t acknowledge that it’s losing currency nor understand why, and is subsequently flailing around looking for scapegoats to explain its own demise, and further, seeking to “protect” itself from that “threat” by extending the reach of the surveillance state. (censorship)

                      If it wasn’t “Russia” it would be “China” or “Reds Under the Bed” or whatever else might serve to prop up a crumbling piece of shit.

                      And you’re probably asking the wrong person for an opinion on elections anyway given my dim view of “representative” parliamentary “democracy”. For what it’s worth, I’d say get all money out of elections and at the same moment, just get rid of elections.

                      edit – maybe the liberal centre does understand why it’s crumbling and also understands perfectly well that we are the enemy.

                    • McFlock

                      100k stacked up against millions, but targeted and widely shared (adding to the mix seen by most voters).

                      China does have similar foreign policy advantages in a divided US as Russia might, but China wouldn’t have the same level of domestic advantage in pointing out “look at the west, it elects buffoons”. And seeing as you mention spain and europe, there’s little if any foreign policy advantage to china in having a divided europe, but loads of advantage to a russia looking to expand its regional influence westwards.

                      Nobody is saying the russian ads “outweigh” anything else. Just that they’re another factor in the polarised election, and they are an external factor that very likely sought to mislead the electorate in order to support the policy objectives of a foreign government. You might not go for the concept of the nation-state, but surely you can understand why people that do, and the systems that administer those nation-states, might have a bigger issue with that than thinking maybe Clinton should have spent a couple more days in the midwest?

              • mauī

                Actually, what I’m suggesting is that divising advertising that reinforced the divisions within the country and reached one or two hundred million people could conceivably have had a significant effect on an election..

                Out of all the damning “evidence” the media could have provided the public they show stuff like a random facebook Buff Bernie cartoon ad bought for $2, and this is supposed to be evidence of foreign meddling in a election?
                https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/01/social-media-ads-russia-wanted-americans-to-see-244423

                Then there’s the Pokemon stuff.. it’s all completely laughable and I really don’t know why people’s antennae refuse to go up about this whole Russia narrative.

              • spikeyboy

                So who exactly were this whole troll farm composed of?

                “Well, according to Twitter, it is ANY account created in Russia. Or any account where the user has a Russian email address. Or if their name contains Cyrillic characters. Or if they ever tweet in Russian. Or if they have ever logged in from any Russian IP address — even a single time. Twitter says: “We considered an account to be Russian-linked if it had even one of the relevant criteria.”

                Not even Glenn Beck would draw so many far-fetched connections. One glance at the Twitter criteria tells you that it could enroll every single Russian dissident into Putin’s “troll army.” I personally know several people in Russia who are adamantly opposed to Putin and all he stands for — and have put their lives on the line for their beliefs. According to Twitter — and the US Congress, the mainstream media, the Democratic Party and innumerable liberal commentators — these people are also part of Putin’s “troll army.” ”

                And this exceedingly low budget advertising campaign showing images of Clinton hating Jesus or guns or some other rubbish is supposed to be able to turn the tide on the millions spent by the democrats? Yeah right..

                https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/11/03/don-draper-rules-russian-ads-and-american-madness/

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  You forgot to cut and paste this part:

                  …this is not to say Russia wasn’t monkeying around in American politics…

                  The issue for POTUS and all POTUS’s men is whether they were handing out bananas. And lying to the FBI about it.

                  Oops.

                  • spikeyboy

                    Well,the monkeying bit must be a real surprise. I would suggest that monkeying and stole the election are quite different. Maybe not for you. Lying to the FBI may be the baddest thing to The FBI and to you but in most places its not an offence to lie to authorities. Different of course once you get to court.

                    On the handing out of bananas Flynn was trying to get the the Russians not to over react to the Obama sanctions and also to delay the UN vote on reprimanding Israel over its settler program.

                    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4317997-Flynn-charging-document.html#document/p1

                    Did you get that? Flynn was trying to influence the Russians not vice versa?
                    And he failed!! The guys that are in the pocket of Putin had no influence on Russia!!

                    From this a case could be made for undue influence by Israel but how do you get Russian influence?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I would suggest that monkeying and stole the election are quite different.

                      Well go on then, suggest it. Then I can point out that it’s a red herring. So what if they’re “different”?

                      As for what the “baddest thing” to me is, can’t you do better than invent strawmen? Go on, try harder.

                      I note that the charges levelled against Flynn are widely considered to be part of a plea deal, whereby Flynn has escaped more serious charges in exchange for giving evidence against third parties.

                      It’s nice that you have a straw to clutch at though. Clutch at it!

                • None of which alters the fact that the Russian government runs a sizable and expensive troll operation.

                  • mauī

                    Yeah it’s a called a “shadowy troll farm” run by the IRA, and they’ve infiltrated Pokemon 😆

                    • Macro

                      Psycho – Those who don’t want to know – don’t want to know.
                      Sending 35 Russian Diplomats back to Russia for inflitrating Pokemon … what was Obama thinking!

                    • Bill

                      Well, that’s kind of nice of CNN to broadcast an “exclusive” that just insinuated that BLM and the reactions they occasion are just so much “Russian interference”.

                      What’re people saying about propaganda again?

                    • Bill

                      @ Psycho Milt.

                      Your “actual journalists” (at the very least as far as your second link is concerned) is down to a guy (position at St Andrews Uni) who wrote a book about the supposed shenanigans of the IRA and then got it heavily pushed through major liberal media outlets.

                      Funnily enough, his prime interviewee (he appeared on US networks) has a facebook profile (that looks entirely legit) outlining his journalist jobs (fairly non-descript publications) that also contains posts that are very anti-Putin and pro his Presidential opponent (a woman) for the 2018 elections.

                      Yet he worked at a pro Putin troll farm!!?

                      Sorry I can’t remember any names off the cuff and can only give you a sketch for the moment…it’s a week or so since I delved into it all. But hey. You could always do your own digging 😉

                      edit – Vitaly Bespalov is the Russian ‘contact’ with the fb page and Ksenia Sobchak is the contender he’s a fan of.

                  • adam

                    Psycho Milt saying Russia weaponised the web, is like saying rifles fire bullets.

                    The internet was, and has always been a weapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

      • adam 10.2.2

        Sheesh McFLock on with the diversionary line again, the democrats lost – and as such need to act like an effective opposition. Which with the passing of this bill, shows they are not.

        As for blame, well the the USA public saw h.r.c. and thought trump was a better option. Don’t say much for the corporate democrats does it. This is what happens when you get in bed with money – you come off smelling dirty.

        • McFlock 10.2.2.1

          Actually, the majority of the US public voted for clinton.

          But besides all of that, you’re idea of an “effective opposition” is a classic example of what the yanks call a “monday morning quarterback”.

          • adam 10.2.2.1.1

            Actually, the election was lost.

            You really need to look into it. They lost the senate, the house and most of the states. So get a grip on reality.

            • McFlock 10.2.2.1.1.1

              I’m not the one sliding to the representative seats in the face of comments about the presidential election. Especially when the dems made advances against the republicans in both the senate and the house of representatives.

              Repubs gained two governorships, though. Make hay out of that.

              • adam

                Says here who in one breath goes they could not do anything because of math.

                Do you get people don’t actually want corporate loving scum, no matter they happen to be left wing?

                • Do you get that people can not want corporate-loving scum (assuming that means what I think it means) and still not be chuffed about Putin’s regime running a troll army to interfere in other countries’ elections?

                  • adam

                    And what not corporate loving about Putin’s government? They are both capitalist – just in case you missed the memo.

                  • Bill

                    Somewhere in the range of a Company or Battalion of trolls (400) if western reports are true…not even close to a Division never mind an army.

                    So a rag-tag Company or Battalion of trolls, operating in shifts, is interfering and influencing elections from the US to Germany and Spain and Britain and where-ever.

                    Imagine what the community at “the standard” could do then! We’s a Division!

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Unfortunately, we don’t all follow the same script. That being a feature of propaganda and everything.

  11. Paul Campbell 11

    Some have pointed out that Dowd appears to resemble a Vogon … and that Trump’s tweets may actually be carefully crafted Vogon poetry

  12. whatisis 12

    There is a distinct other world looking at these issues laid out reasonably clearly here in this lot of tweets https://voat.co/v/pizzagate/2272162

    I am not saying it’s correct but I do know there are a lot of ppl invested in this narrative.

    • joe90 12.1

      The fascists reddit, nice.
      /

      • whatisis 12.1.1

        Ok I’m on my phone and being lazy.
        Hee is the whole what’s really going on for the trump ppl.
        #SaveTheKids I am going to try to lay out the hi-level picture I have seen painted in the last year, w/some direction from Q Anon.

        1) Hillary, Obama, and the cabal committed #Treason against the US in dealings with #UraniumOne and #IranNukes deals.

        2) Trump was recruited by #Patriots/#Military as the only outsider (not part of establishment) who could really #DrainTheSwamp, which is much worse than the aforementioned #Treason. He is protected by the #Marines in particular.

        3) The cabal, which includes corrupt Dems/GOP, never expected #HRC to lose. They owned the #FakeNews #LSM (lying socialist media), rigged the #DNC primary for #Hillary (see #SethRichMurder), and thought they had rigged the actual election with electronic voting.

        4) Despite stealing multiple states with a combination of #ElectoralFraud and #IllegalVoting (compare vote counts to registered voters in many unbiased analyses), the opposition to #HRC and support for #DrainTheSwamp overwhelmed at the booth…and NSA helped to fight the fraud.

        5) As insurance against a potential loss, #HRC and corrupt GOP (think McCain) did all they could to frame Trump as an agent of Russia. The #RussianCollusionLie was basically “projection” by #HRC, who herself actually colluded with Russia in the #UraniumOne deal, enriching herself

        6) To the tune of $145M via “donations” to the #ClintonFoundation by involved players in the treasonous deal + millions more in other back-door deals and inflated speaking fees for #SerialSexPredator #BillClinton, while endangering US security w/20% of US Uranium going to Russia.

        7) #Obama + corrupt players at #DOJ and #FBI were also on-board with the most heinous act of corruption and treason this country has ever seen, allowing #UraniumOne deal to go forward despite incontrovertible proof of pay-to-play/bribery in Russia’s effort to gain these assets.

        8) Meanwhile, the #DOJ, led by corrupt #LorettaLynch was running interference against any true investigation of #Hillary for multiple felonies in using an unsecured server and providing top-secret documents (including SAP info) to our enemies (a virtual dead drop).

        9) While Hillary’s #EmailScandal would bring anyone else life in prison. #CorruptComey exonerated her, writing exoneration letter long before even interviewing key targets, including #HRC, while providing #immunity + #DestroyingEvidence from accomplices like #CherylMills.

        10) Comey did not even attend the #HRC “interrogation” (chat), where #Hillary was not even put under oath and was not recorded. No notes have been released, even if any were taken outside of posing for some Instagram photos and a #SnapLieStory. It was a #ShamInvestigation.

        11) #FBI was more concerned w/finding leaker who exposed #BillClinton-#LorettaLynch #Tarmac meeting, rather than recognizing true #ObstructionOfJustice that was obvious. After all, it was not an “investigation” but a “matter” as that’s what #HRC + #Lynch had named it to be.

        12) The #DNCLeaks (NOT “hacks”) exposed the utter corruption of the Dems and primary process, including massive complicity by the media, the #DNC. This was compounded by #Wikileaks of #PodestaEmails, which revealed a #LuciferianCabal involved in #SpiritCooking and #Pedophilia.

        13) #DNC + #HRC needed to clean up matters. Hence #DNCLeaker #SethRich was murdered in “botched robbery” in which NOTHING (wallet w/cash, expensive smartphone, jewelry) was stolen. DNC process server #ShawnLucas was also eliminated. Need emerged to frame Russia as hacking DNC.

        14) The #RussianHackingLie was born of a discredited report by #AntiPutin hack #CrowdStrike. Despite the fact that this report is filled w/rubbish, as confirmed by those who understand IT/cyber security, FBI and ALL intelligence agencies (an LSM lie) concluded Russia hacked DNC.

        15) #FBI never even looked at DNC server…unclear whether they bothered to ask or were denied. Independent analysis https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/ … proves that data transfer occurred locally, likely a flash drive, and COULD NOT have been over Internet in a hack due to speed/bandwidth.

        16) Trump had joked that “perhaps [Russia] should share” Hillary’s illegally-deleted emails…given that she had destroyed them with #BleachBit, while smashing hard drives and cell phones with a hammer…no evidence of intention to destroy evidence, right? #HRC saw an opening.

        17) Thus was born the decision to #FrameTrump for colluding with Russia. The frame effort was elaborate, including these key elements: a) create a fake dossier using foreign intelligence agencies working with muckraking firm called #FusionGPS to generate a fantasy smear document.

        18) b) Hide your tracks by using law firm (#PerkinElmer) as intermediary to funnel over $10M in payments to #FusionGPS for fabricated report. c) While most in LSM would swallow lies w/o question, they made sure to pay off some journalists to supplement #MockingBirdMedia lies.

        19) d) Use fake #RussianDossier document as basis for FISA courts to issue warrant-less wiretaps. e) When denied, install #server in #TrumpTower falsely linking Trump with 2 Russian banks. f) Use #FusionGPS to set up false-pretense meeting w/Russian + DT Jr to collect #HRC dirt.

        20) g) Use wiretaps of entire Trump Campaign…and, later, Transition Team, illegally #Unmask key Trump people (like #GeneralMichaelFlynn) w/recorded transcripts of normal calls w/Russian Ambassador, and claim #SmokingGun of collusion to the complicit LSM that runs with the lie.

        21) h) While launching witch-hunt investigation of #RussianCollusionLie, totally ignore provable crimes committed by #HRC, #Obama, #McCain and others in corrupt establishment. This includes falsely labeling the truth about #PizzaGate/#PedoGate as “debunked” w/zero investigation.

        22) i) Take steps to ultimately cause #JeffSessions to recuse himself while appointing #RobertMueller, who himself looks compromised from actions while on top of #FBI. Still an open question, but possible evidence that ex-Marine Mueller may be a Patriot working to fix things.

        23) If Q Anon is legit, we are in the CalmBeforeTheStorm, but the #TakeDown to #DrainTheSwamp is happening. Evidence: Many predictions by Q have come true w/in his first appearing at end of October, such as thousands of sealed indictments, tip-of-iceberg Hollywood/media exposure,

        24) some of tweets by #POTUS align extremely well w/Q Anon: prediction of twitter takedown of #POTUS account on 11/2, which happened almost immediately, +++ in tweet (11/6), pictures look like from AFO (11/9), and 11/25 tweet pointing to Maga Pill (https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/934563828834164739?lang=en …).

        25) Q Anon seems to be making these hi-level points: He is under attack by CIA but protected by #Military and #NSA (trusts Adm. Rogers); #UraniumOne + #Iran deals are two of most treasonous in history; BO is shadowing his trips; CIA seems to be backing NK + Iran for staged event.

        26) Q Anon indicates that the #Cabal is on the run, but it involves massive corruption of up to 70% of politicians: #PedoGate for control, treason for $, financial corruption via “foundations” that are piggy banks – explain how they all get obscenely wealthy on their salaries.

        27) We must spread this information and awareness as #POTUS is like a salmon swimming upstream against corrupt establishment in both parties and #LSM which will try to turn all truths uncovered of real corruption into #FakeNews. Due to Voat link blocking, the QAnon compilation is available via this final tweet: https://twitter.com/ObamaTruth1/status/937387703305474048

        • Carolyn_Nth 12.1.1.1

          Sounds like the plot for a damn good movie!

          twist and counter-twist; deep state… etc, etc.

          • In Vino 12.1.1.1.1

            Movie? An 8-Series long serial drama like Game of Thrones ..?
            I never would have thought that Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy would look so rational and believable.

            Mind you, whatisis’s account has a certain ring of truth to my conspiratorial, paranoid mind.

        • North 12.1.1.2

          #ManyThankYous #AlexJones #IAmBarking……

  13. One Two 13

    Being attached to faux media shock and outrage, is to emotionally buy into the manufactured drama..

    To what end…

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1

      Perception is beyond an abundance of knowledge.

      • In Vino 13.1.1

        More importantly, perception must also be stronger than shock, outrage, and emotionally buying in. We are not assailed with only false information: it is presented highly emotively.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1.1.1

          Sorry, my comment is a fake Chopra quote, although just as nonsensical as a real one. Not to be taken seriously.

          • In Vino 13.1.1.1.1

            Wow – I clicked on your link and got asked to donate! After reading a few lines, I declined… As you say, not to be taken seriously.

            • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1.1

              The quote generator is about as useful as most of onetwo’s sanctimonious slobberings, though

    • McFlock 13.2

      Self power imparts reality to a symbolic representation of opportunities

    • Macro 13.3

      Tell that to the Chump.
      He’s the one who watches Faux News and retweets it.

  14. peterh 14

    Not only have the democrats lost a election,they are now polling the lowest for 25 years. and Trump is right about fake news. and that is all we get in NZ
    If and when just someone proves that Russia had any thing to do with the USA election, well thats the time to come out with all the garbbage we get hammered at us all the time. 99,9% is pure rubbish, feed by the media, who Trump told to get stuffed

    • Phil 14.1

      democrats lost a election,they are now polling the lowest for 25 years.

      What the fuck are you talking about?

      The Democrats hold a roughly 8-point lead over Republicans on the generic congressional ballot. Last time they held a lead that large was almost a decade ago – 2008.

  15. North 15

    Yes. Hilary and the Democrats are so vile that the arch capitalist who identifies some very fine people amongst white supremacists and avowed Nazis and retweets Britain First……well he’s utterly sanitised. Of course. Why would any decent anarchist contemplate otherwise?

  16. tawaroa 16

    ”if I did a tenth of what she did, I would be in jail today.”

    He has a point, she along with a bunch of her group should be locked up.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1

      The guy who’s just admitted lying under oath “has a point”. If only I could save up the money for a pre-frontal lobotomy I might be able to see it too.

    • Anne 16.2

      …she along with a bunch of her group should be locked up.

      Why?

    • Tricledrown 16.3

      So many people here believe the Putin propaganda.
      Brexit another Putin win.
      Putin wants confusion and disfunction amongst Nato and it’s allies.

  17. adam 17

    That hardest part about arguing on this thread today is many of you embrace patriotism. I’ll let Emma Goldman explain why that position is vial.

  18. North 18

    “vial” Adam ? You’d have assisted instead of tearing down your somewhat puzzling point if you’d said ‘vile’……”vial” being rather too redolent of Kool Aid and Jonestown. Anyway, pray tell……whom apart from Trump apologists feast so greedily on patriotism ? Corrupted patriotism is Trump’s very meat. The mob chant “Make America Great Again” says it all really.

    Extraordinary and actually quite misconceived of you to adopt Emma Goldman’s words to aid your customary Trump apologism. Listen to those words again……”grander”……”more intelligent”. Were I a betting man I’d be putting my money on Emma Goldman being absolutely appalled by the ugly authoritarianism seminal to Trump.

    “But But But Hilary……” doesn’t cut it Adam. Nevertheless, #GoodTryHuckabee.

    • adam 18.1

      You are at your usual best misrepresenting people north.

      I never mentioned h.r.c. I said the democrats are useless, if you think h.r.c. is the democrats – sorry for you. If you think the Russians are the problem, then sorry for you. Mind you you got one thing right – Emma Goldman would have loathed trump. So one out of three ain’t bad for you north- at least you’re trying to think beyond you dried up little them, and us world.

  19. North 19

    What a hoot ! For the man whom incessantly claims to be “the best” in every way imaginable……and to have “the best” in all things (right down to Mar-a-Lago chocolate cake FFS)…….he certainly has some piss useless lawyers around him.

    I refer to Trump’s tweet which gratuitously evidences Trump knowing long ago not only that Flynn lied to Pence but had also committed the felony of lying to the FBI. Comey’s sworn evidence is that Trump pressured him to leave Flynn alone. He was sacked when he didn’t. Obstruction ?

    Nooooo ! Get it right……that wasn’t Trump’s tweet. It was the dumbarse lawyer’s. Hang on. Doesn’t Trump have only “the best”…….chocolate cakes, lawyers, (fake) Time magazine covers, and every other fucking thing ? What a liar!

  20. Sabine 20

    If Trump and his crew are the best thing to happen to the planet since sliced toast and just below the second coming of Jesus, can anyone explain to me why they seem to lie about pretty much everything.

    No its not me speaking on the ‘grab her by the pussy’ tape.
    No i did not meet with this person, that person, well maybe i met just a little bit with this person and that person?
    No i won’t profit of the tax cuts. Well maybe a little bit to the tune of a billion here and there?
    No i did not not disclose the investment in a potentially illegal settlement in Israel. Really it depends what you consider an illegal settlement.
    No i did not ask the guy from the FBI to stop the investigations.
    No i did not fire the guy from the FBI to prevent the investigations.
    No i did not know that Flynn has been lying.

    seriously,

    After all, Trump is gonna bring piece to the world, solve the ‘fake news’ climate change invented by China hoax, work with the Russians, not nuke North Korea, bring ‘economic relaxation’ to the economically oppressed rich donor class and take away evil social healthcare from the poor people that ‘are poor cause they spend all their money on booze, movies and womens’, streamline education into biblical studies only, keep the wimminz barefeet pregnant in their kitchens until they die of childbirth or their uterus falls out, what ever comes first and and and and

    Why all the lying.

    • adam 20.1

      Empires lie, it’s what they do.

      • Sabine 20.1.1

        was he not the saviour that was not she who shall not be named who was the empire?

        Or is it the russian empire? Or both empires? or who?

        seriously i am over this bullshit of the deep state, the empire and shit.

        It is Flynn who lied, its Kushner who lied, its Pence who is lying, Trump literally lies reflexively, never mind his spokes persons and his congress and his senate – all btw republican owned – but maybe its OK when republicans do itta? and that is the best you come up with?

        The fucking empire lies? Sad!

        Can someone please try harder?

        Why the fuck do they lie when they are going to be – together with the Russians – our next benevolent overlords (unless of course you are a women, children, people of colour, all those that don’t identify as heterosexual, all those that are below a certain tax threshold etc, then all bets are off) and thus will bring us peace, prosperity and godliness.

      • North 20.1.2

        Yes. Empires (and sovereign nations) lie, Of course, It’s the emperors’ essential behaviour which really matters though. Some emperors behave as to apply rightist authoritarianism and division…..detracting. Others don’t……they behave to uplift and not to divide.

        So……to respond with blithe yawn in discussion about what is happening to the US “……it’s what they do”…….. belittles the world historical record. Which record shows emperors who have helped their people, and emperors who have helped themselves.

        Obviously then there’s a scale at top of which is high egregiousness and worse. To yawn “Empires lie…..” is as useless as saying “all cats are feline”. It minimises. It denies the fact of a ‘critical point’ in human afffairs.

        Why would a person do that ? Because Hilary’s so vile ? But hang on……she’s not the bloody emperor.

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